How do Arsenal hit back in Paris?

Summary

The Athletic FC Podcast: How Do Arsenal Hit Back in Paris?

Release Date: April 30, 2025
Host: Ayo Akinwolere
Guests: Art Des Rocher and Stuart James

---

Introduction

In this episode of The Athletic FC Podcast, host Ayo Akinwolere delves into Arsenal's challenging first leg defeat against Paris Saint-Germain (PSG) in the Champions League semi-final. With a scoreline of 1-0 favoring PSG, Arsenal faces an uphill battle in the second leg. Ayo is joined by football analysts Art Des Rocher and Stuart James to dissect the match's critical moments, individual performances, and the broader implications for Arsenal's season.

---

What Went Wrong for Arsenal?

Art Des Rocher opened the discussion by pinpointing Arsenal's failure to heed PSG's strategic warnings throughout the knockout stages. He emphasized the impact of Dembele's early goal:

"As soon as Dembele received that ball in the center circle, my mind just went to the Liverpool game where he scored at Anfield and it was just a carbon copy... that broke the game open for PSG and gave them that platform to hold on to for the rest of the game."
[02:57]

Art highlighted PSG's technical prowess and tactical intensity, which caught Arsenal off guard in the early minutes, making the remainder of the match increasingly difficult for the home side.

Stuart James echoed these sentiments, noting the psychological blow of conceding early:

"Conceding so early, I think you can't underestimate mentally what that did to Arsenal at that time... It was not just a mental problem but also PSG's tactical and technical superiority in that period."
[04:08]

---

Atmosphere at the Emirates

The atmosphere at the Emirates Stadium played a significant role in the match's dynamics. Stuart James described the electric pre-match ambiance, underscored by passionate tifos and flares:

"The noise was amazing... I've been to the Emirates for 18 years and personally, I don't remember it being that loud ever before kickoff."
[05:52]

However, the early goal silenced the crowd, dampening the home support's initial fervor and impacting Arsenal's energy levels for the rest of the game.

---

Key Individual Performances

Ousmane Dembele

Art Des Rocher lauded Dembele's transformative season:

"33 goals, 12 assists for Dembele this season in 45 games. So 45 direct goal involvements in 45 games. 30 of those in this calendar year. He's exploded in 2025. Arguably the best player in the world."
[13:41]

His intelligent movement and adaptability, transitioning from the right wing to a false nine role, have made him a pivotal figure in PSG's attack.

Gianluigi Donnarumma

Stuart James praised PSG's goalkeeper Donnarumma for his crucial saves:

"Absolutely incredible saves for both Trossard and Martinelli. Should Arsenal feel lucky or feel grateful that they're not losing more?"
[08:59]

Donnarumma's performances have been instrumental in keeping PSG ahead, demonstrating exceptional shot-stopping abilities that thwarted Arsenal's offensive efforts.

---

Arsenal's Midfield and Martin Odegaard

A central theme was Arsenal's midfield struggles, particularly concerning captain Martin Odegaard's performance. Art Des Rocher discussed the need for reinforcement:

"Martin Odegaard is the orchestrator, but his performance last night felt like a shadow of himself post-injury. Arsenal need to improve their attacking options and get more out of Odegaard."
[18:43]

The absence of Thomas Partey due to suspension exacerbated these issues, limiting Arsenal's ability to control the game's tempo and execute effective counter-pressing.

Stuart James added:

"Odegaard didn't combine with Saka as much as expected. There were moments where the ball came back to him, and he didn't play it quickly enough, which affected Arsenal's rhythm."
[21:33]

---

Substitution Strategy and Captaincy

The episode also touched on Mikel Arteta's substitution tactics and the ongoing conversation about the team's captaincy.

Art Des Rocher critiqued the late substitution of Ethan Nanri:

"Substitutions have been a thread throughout Arteta's time. Bringing Nanri on at the 90th minute didn't offer enough impact. Perhaps making changes around the 75-80 minute mark could have been more effective."
[25:09]

Regarding captaincy, the discussion centered on Declan Rice potentially taking on a more prominent leadership role:

"Rice is a natural leader with or without the armband. His performance last night, leading by example, suggests he could be considered for the captaincy next season."
[26:08]

Stuart James supported this viewpoint, emphasizing Rice's intrinsic leadership qualities:

"Rice doesn't need the armband to lead. His actions on the pitch speak volumes. The leadership group at Arsenal is evolving, and Rice will naturally step into a more prominent role."
[27:49]

---

Implications for the Second Leg in Paris

Looking ahead to the return fixture in Paris, Art Des Rocher expressed cautious optimism:

"It's going to be very hard. Arsenal needs a masterclass from Arteta, disciplined defense, and exceptional performances from key players like Saka to turn the tie around."
[32:40]

Stuart James outlined the tactical adjustments Arsenal could implement:

"Arsenal can be more patient, find a rhythm before imposing themselves. Exploiting PSG's left side, where Hakimi pushes forward, could open spaces for Arsenal to attack."
[34:23]

Both analysts agreed that while the task is daunting, a well-executed game plan could provide Arsenal with a fighting chance to advance.

---

Impact on Arsenal’s Season

The Champions League campaign's significance extends beyond the tie against PSG. Stuart James highlighted how this run shapes perceptions of Arsenal's season:

"Arsenal's impressive Champions League record this season has given them hope. Failing to progress would be a missed opportunity, especially after Real Madrid showed their caliber."
[36:13]

Art Des Rocher added:

"Arteta has emphasized that being in the semi-finals should be purposeful. This stage gives meaning to their Champions League journey, differentiating it from a season-only-focused Premier League run."
[38:36]

The analysts underscored that success in Europe would not only validate Arsenal's progress under Arteta but also bolster their confidence for future competitions.

---

Conclusion

As Arsenal prepares for the second leg in Paris, the team faces immense pressure to overcome a significant first leg deficit. With strategic insights from Art Des Rocher and Stuart James, the episode underscores the importance of tactical adjustments, individual brilliance, and mental resilience. The outcome of this tie could serve as a defining moment for Arsenal's season, highlighting their growth and potential under Mikel Arteta's leadership.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Art Des Rocher [02:57]: "Dembele's early goal... broke the game open for PSG."
• Stuart James [04:08]: "PSG's tactical and technical superiority... was not just a mental problem for Arsenal."
• Art Des Rocher [13:41]: "Dembele... arguably the best player in the world."
• Stuart James [08:59]: "Should Arsenal feel lucky or feel grateful that they're not losing more?"
• Art Des Rocher [18:43]: "Arsenal need to improve their attacking options and get more out of Odegaard."
• Art Des Rocher [25:09]: "Substitutions have been a thread throughout Arteta's time."
• Art Des Rocher [26:08]: "Rice is a natural leader with or without the armband."
• Stuart James [27:49]: "Rice doesn't need the armband to lead."

---

Final Thoughts

This episode provides an in-depth analysis of Arsenal's current predicament in the Champions League, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of the tactical, psychological, and individual factors at play. For fans seeking to grasp the nuances of Arsenal's journey and the challenges ahead, this discussion is both enlightening and essential.

Transcript

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[Ayo Akimolere]

Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. Arsenal have it all to do in Paris after a 10 defeat in the first leg of their Champions League semi final tie and hit by Dembele.

[Unknown]

And in.

Three and a bit minutes, PSG in front.

[Ayo Akimolere]

So how did Luis Enrique's PSG get the better of the Gunners? And can Arsenal stage a comeback in the second leg? So with us today we have the Athletics, Art Des Rocher and Stuart James. Now, Art, not the performance or result Arteta would have wanted. In your opinion, what went wrong with Arsenal last night?

[Unknown]

I think that the big thing was they just didn't heed the warnings that Paris Saint Germain have given them throughout the knockout stages. As soon as Dembele received that ball in the center circle, my mind just went to the Liverpool game where he scored at Anfield and it was just a carbon copy, I felt. So I think that was what obviously I guess broke the game open for PSG and gave them that platform that they could hold on to for the rest of the game. And then from there, I just think you saw the levels that PSG have going forward as well. I think they showed the quality of a side who not maybe they're not used to being in this stage of the competition, but the qualities that can set you apart at this stage in terms of being brave on the ball and also just being really intense without it. So I think those two factors really kind of maybe shocked Arsenal a little bit in the first 15, 20 minutes and then from there it's an uphill battle.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, it is. And Stu, you know, we talk about a shock. I mean, that first goal from Dembele really early on in the match, some might say it was a bit of a sucker punch to Arsenal, but I guess with a star that PSG played with as well, it was tough to realize that Arsenal were actually the home team. They really came out shooting, didn't they?

[Unknown]

Yeah, it was such a shame because I thought it kind of sucked the life out of the game early on. From an Arsenal perspective, you could tell there was a brilliant atmosphere in the stadium. You've got that feel watching it from home. But to concede so early, I think you can't underestimate mentally what that did to Arsenal at that time. I remember the camera cut into Rice and you could see him preaching calm to all his teammates, but actually they all look shell shocked. I've had to look shell shocked on the touchline. You don't expect to concede that early in a game of that magnitude. And I think there's two things there. Obviously, it gives PSG a huge confidence lift too. And Arsenal are trying to deal with the trauma of conceding that early, but talking to the point that Art just made there as well, you have to give massive credit. It wasn't just a mental problem for Arsenal in that first 20 minutes, tactically, technically, PSG was so good in that period. So, so good. And Dembele was just so intelligent with the positions he picked up. They were monopolizing possession. I remember a stat flashing up on the screen after about 20, 25 minutes that Arsenal had 33% possession. You know, they're the home team in a Champions League semi final, and we're used to seeing Arsenal dominate the ball. It almost felt like they were playing with 10 men in that at that time. So, yeah, a real blow, because if the opposite had happened, you felt the stadium would really have ignited. But it just took all the energy out of Arsenal and the supporters it felt for that period, which is totally understandable.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Let's talk about that atmosphere. What was it like? You know, Arteta asked the crowd to bring it, you know, to bring their boots. Felt like it. I saw some really beautiful tifos as well, which I've not seen at the Emirates often. I saw things like flares being brought on in North London, and it felt like a real European feel for a European tie. How was it out there?

[Unknown]

Yeah, for me, I mean, I got out maybe about just over an hour before kickoff, and the PSG fans were already in the UA section, and you already had Arsenal fans through near the side of the pitch where they do all the flash interviews and stuff, so you could get that feeling of excitement from both sides. And I felt that when you came out just before kickoff, just before the players were about to enter the pitch, it was amazing, the noise. I. Personally speaking, I've been going to the Emirates for how long? 18 years. Wow. 18 years. And personally, I don't remember it being that loud ever before kickoff. So for me, I thought they brought their boots, figuratively speaking. But, yeah, as Stuart says, I think it was just really unfortunate, the timing of the goal, and you could really feel the effect of that afterwards. I think in the real immediate aftermath, they still tried to kind of lift the team. But I think once PSG had the ball for that long, it just quieted the crowd down a little bit, and it was kind of a bit hard to recover after that. And again in the second half, really early kind of tipping point where Mourinho scores and it's ruled out. And I think that that's another moment where if Mourinho's a couple of centimeters, just one more Side, I think that really changes things. But, yeah, a few unfortunate timings.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, football's really interesting, isn't it, in terms of narrative, Stu, Because Art talks about Mourinho's potential goal if it had gone forward, how that would have changed the course of the tie. But even if you think about Trossard and also Martinelli as well, they had chances and it's one of those where a goal from Trossard or a goal from Martinelli, now the team start to believe. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case.

[Unknown]

Yeah, you're spot on those key moments. I remember just before half time, it felt like Arsenal were finding a little bit of momentum. They got back into the game after that really difficult first half hour and then that Martinelli chance came and went and you thought, oh, if they could have just scored before half time. And then second half, you know, when that goal goes in for Marino, his celebration looked a little bit subdued, almost to the point you thought, does he know he's offside? Ian Wright was jumping up and down. It was electric at that moment when it had gone in though the rest of the ground. And I thought, this is it. One, one. Here we go. Arse. You can have a real crack at PSG now. Try and do what Villa did to them in that second leg at Villa park instead. It just never happened. And then the longer the game went on, to be honest with you, my biggest concern was PSG getting a second goal and obviously had those two great opportunities late on. A real blessing that neither of those went in, because I think if Arsenal were going to Paris 2 nil down, it would be. It would be irretrievable from that point. As it is, it's not. But, yeah, you're spot on those. Those moments in a game, little moments where you really want to capitalise on. It's funny because. Become big things. I remember Lewis Scully winning the ball off hakimi after about 25 minutes, half an hour, Arsenal had a really difficult opening and suddenly that challenge just lifted everyone. But they kind of needed to then go on and get a goal, obviously, and unfortunately that didn't happen. But I have to say, I'm. I'm so impressed with psg. I think they're a brilliant team. Yeah.

[Ayo Akimolere]

And Donnaruma really showed his stripes yesterday. Absolutely incredible saves for both Trossard and Martinelli. But Stu's right. Should Arsenal feel lucky or feel grateful that they're not. It's not more than 1 nil because Bakala, I mean, silly miss and then Ramos hitting the Bar. I mean, I thought it was over at that point.

[Unknown]

Yeah, in a sense I would say. But I wouldn't say it's all down to luck. I think for me, I didn't view that second half as psg going for it and going for the second goal. I thought they were quite, I guess, conservative in the way they played and they just kind of looked for those opportunities and that's where the chances came from. That Barcola chance. I think that's just pure football and brilliance. That's not even the one twos, the movement and then you're in there and I just think he's. His mind's blanked, basically. I think from an Arsenal perspective, the fact that it is just one nil is massive because for the criticism that will come for the performance, they can just wipe their hands with it and go into that second leg quite fresh. And I know we spoke before about the women's game when they lost to Leon 21 first leg. I first leg and it was very similar because Lyon had two forwards who had the X factor in Diani and Dumaurnay who made the difference. But at Lyon Stadium in the second leg it was a completely different story. So I think before the game Micarta Seta spoke about Pathway kind of being set by the women's team. I didn't think he'd be that literal with it. Yeah, but I think there is, I guess, framework there for them to still go into that second leg with belief.

[Adrian Clarke]

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[Raj Panjabi]

Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.

[Noah Michelson]

And I'm Noah Michaelson, also from HuffPost.

[Raj Panjabi]

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[Noah Michelson]

Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.

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And we're talking like legit credible experts.

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[Ayo Akimolere]

Let's also pay homage to some of the individual performances from that game. You know, starting with the positives. It was Mandembele once again coming up. Clutchers scoring. Essentially a carbon copy, you said it up, of the goal versus Liverpool. Dropping deep to collect the ball and then finding space to get on the end of the cross. Amazing transformation from him this season to consider at the top end of the season. We spoke about it yesterday on another podcast. Enrique wasn't playing him for like disciplinary issues.

[Unknown]

Yeah, his, his transformation is extraordinary. When you look at his numbers, they are completely out of sync with anything he's done before. And obviously the positional shift is a big part of that narrative. Yeah, he didn't play any October game. He was left out. And Lewis, Enrique said it's the best decision he made all year. He feels completely vindicated by it. I don't think it was one of those IO where the two of them fall out. I think he was just making it clear he was unhappy with certain disciplinary issues. They parked it and he's really kicked on and obviously the positional change has been huge. He's gone from playing right wing to playing in this false nine position which works so well with his skill set. The way he came deep to receive the ball in the lead up to the opening goal, but then his decision making later on not to keep running into the box to hold his position on the edge. Really intelligent play. And I think it's so difficult for Arsenal's centre backs to mark a player with that intelligent movement. There was an incident later in the first half where Saliba followed him all the way in and got right up tight behind him. But Dembele was still really clean with his technique and how he used the ball. So, yeah, it's hard because you start dragging people out of position. But what have I got written down here? 33 goals, 12 assists for Dembele this season in 45 games. So 45 direct goal involvements in 45 games. 30 of those goal involvements have come in this calendar year. So he's exploded in 2025. He's arguably 2025, the best player in the world, I'd say. You know, we're only at April of course, but yeah, amazing, amazing numbers. Always been a really two footed player. I love two footed footballers. There aren't that many who are naturally that good on either foot. He's one of those, he's been a good dribbler. But I think the questions in the past I would have been what about his end product? You know, his numbers last season were really poor. Goals and assists. This season he's just ticking every box and yeah, a real threat. But the beautiful thing about PSG is that actually it's not one person. They're a really good team and I've always looked at them in the past and thought you're not a team, you just got some great individuals and there's loads of players doing the donkey work for two or three stars. Now they all seem to buy into Luis Enrique Zfos and that's testament to him as a coach.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, talk about a two footed player. He's so good two foot, he doesn't even know what foot he's got to shoot off Dembele. Now let's talk about the rest of that team. Sram Neves, Vitinha, Fabian Ruiz. I mean, Neves is so young and I can't tell you how many replays I saw last night of what looked like a foul. Then you zoom in and he just nicks the ball off the player. I mean, he's so precise in his operation and we Spoke about him yesterday on another podcast with Tom Williams and it's really interesting what, what Enrique's really got those guys to do, not just on the ball, but off the ball as well. Was that a little lesson for Arsenal? Because of course they were missing Thomas Partey in that midfield, which often helps Arsenal with the counter press.

[Unknown]

Yeah. So I think the day before the game we obviously had the press conferences and for psg, they put up Vitinha as their player and the constant question was physicality, how. How are you guys in the PSG midfield going to deal with Arsenal being a physical team? And you could tell that Vitinha was getting really annoyed with that, with that kind of line of question, because I think in his mind, and probably the other midfielders minds, technically they're so good that they probably don't even worry about that. In the October game, which I watched back a couple of weeks ago, there were moments where I think PSG had the ball and were comfortable with it, but they weren't going anywhere. And I think a big difference was Warren Z. Emery was starting that day. Since then, I think he started four games in the Champions League League, none of them in the knockout stages. Instead, it's been Fabian Ruiz who kind of just ghosts into little pockets. He had that moment where he hit the post after Duo's shot. He was offside, but he's still in that area, in that zone. And then I think for from just how that midfield's made up, there's so many opposite movements that are really hard to kind of almost not react to. Because if we go back to the goal, I think it's Vitinha and Ruiz making those offset movements. And as a midfielder on the other side, you're going to react. It's your instinct to follow them. But I think that's where maybe communication comes into it, where you maybe need a shout from someone behind you say, don't follow that run, because you're going to leave acres of space for Dembele. And that's how they did it against Liverpool. That's how they pulled people away from Dembele. So yeah, I think as a unit, those three are really intelligent in how they both create space and exploit it as well.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, Enrique's just got them moving so brilliantly, like to the point where I'm like, where is anyone playing at this point? It's so technically as Stu. Let's talk about Arsenal's midfield then. Like Martin Zubamendu, we've spoken on this podcast how he's heavily linked With Arsenal and a summer move to, to the North London team. Now look, is he assigning Arsenal needs to help improve their ball progression? Because, you know, I mentioned Thomas Partey there. I mean, he boiled account. He's had a very decent season actually playing next to Declan Rice.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I think what that signing would do is liberate Rice a bit more. It would allow him to play in a more attacking role, to play more like an 8, be more dynamic and then you've got someone behind him who can control build up. I think Partey was a big miss, actually. I think because it also destabilises other things. I think Marino would have been better suited to playing in that, that more advanced role that he's been doing. You know, there's an argument with center of the pitch opened up in the same way if Partey was playing for that first goal. So, you know, you look back in picture Declan Rice's frustration with party in Real Madrid right when he gets that stupid yellow card at the end of the game. And I think that that changes a lot and it changes Arsenal's setup at a time when Arteta doesn't have that many options. So, yeah, I'd say that would be a really, really good sign in, but I still think for me they need a lot more at the top of the pitch. I think the other thing I'd mention on midfield and you might well be coming onto. So I just don't think Odegaard does enough at the moment and I think so we can look at what someone else would bring. But also I think Arsenal have got to find a way of getting more out of him and Odegaard's got to deliver more. So yeah, they're issues, but fundamentally, I think in midfield I felt even I agree with our second half that the dynamic of the game changed. PSG weren't chasing that second goal until a couple of opportunities opened up. But Arsenal had a lot of the ball, but I didn't see them really creating him much. You know, if you think about the two biggest chances the game from Arsenal's point of view, one comes from Lewis Skelly playing inverted first half. When he comes in, Hakimi gets dragged out and he feeds that lovely ball for the out to win. For Martinelli. Second half, it's not free passing that great chance for Trossard, it's through Rice surging through the center of the pitch, breaking the lines through, carrying the ball and then obviously feeding Trossard. And I think there's, there's one comfort from Arsenal in that that both those opportunities have come from the Arsenal left, the PSG right where Hakimi loves to get forward and there's space to exploit. So I think that's probably something for the second leg. But for me to go back to your question, I feel like the biggest thing for Arsenal is to improve their attacking options next season.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, for sure. We have to talk about Odegaard Art and you know a player was often showed lots of promise this season. Not to say he hasn't shown promise but I that post injury almost look a shadow of the player he's been. Obviously his link up mate Bukayo Saka has also been injured but I guess sometimes, especially as the captain of the team, you probably want a little bit more And I wonder if from where you were sitting, the fans we talk about that atmosphere almost felt frustrating as well when you're looking at 70, 60, 70 minutes and Arsenal sort of resort back to this sort of trying to play it back post, you know, not being able to break teams down and actually he's the orchestrator of a lot of those things. Is it disappointing to see where he was last night?

[Unknown]

Yeah. So in terms of fans that are around the press box, there was a lot of frustration as the game kind of went on towards him. And I think part of that is down to yeah, those balls that you can predict kind of being floated to the back post that maybe easy for Donnarumma to claim but then also I think part of it was down to in that midfield battle there are moments where in 5050 challenges he didn't fully go in for a ball or something like that. And that I think is something that, that's when you hear the groans and stuff. So I think you'd want him to be more imposing in those situations, which I know it isn't his game but still there are moments where you can actually fully go in rather than kind of going half heartedly. Also I think from where I was sitting, there were moments where I was a bit surprised that he wasn't combining with Saka as much. So I was at the Ipswich game it was White, Odegaard and Saka. So that trio that everyone's spoken about so often, that was the first time they'd all started together since I believe October, maybe November. And they looked really good together because White gave them, I guess that extra body to take a defender away on the overlap and Arteta didn't go with that, which was understandable because White was a fitness doubt and is probably, I'd say, not as solid defensively. As timber. But still, I was expecting moments where Saka gives the ball to Erdogan, a little layoff back to him, or a little through ball in behind for him to chase. And there are moments where ball comes back to Odegaard and he doesn't play that. That second ball quickly enough. And for me, it almost just strikes someone who's in the head a little bit too much, maybe thinking through the next, I guess the next decision, instead of just playing what he sees. And for me, that's kind of what I took from it, rather than it being about anything else, really.

[Ayo Akimolere]

There was a part of me watching that match asking myself, why is Martin Odegaard still on the field when you've got Ethan Nanri, who could naturally come on, obviously less experienced, but, you know, a limited surprise and whatnot. Do you think there's an element sometimes in these kind of matches that Mikel Arteta, regardless of how well he's done as a manager and coach of Arsenal, can be a bit cautious at times because I think that also feeds to the crowd as well. You know, I don't think Nanieri came on till about 90 minutes. What's he got to do, five minutes to try and get something out of the game?

[Unknown]

Yeah. So I think that that element of it, substitutions is. It's been a thread throughout. I think Mikel Arteta's time at Arsenal, because people are wanting to see something fresh, and I think there are times where he's used substitutions really well. If you think back to last season when Arsenal played against Manchester City at the Emirates, I think he brought on, I believe it was Partey, Tomiyasu and Martinelli all at the same time, and they were all involved in the winning goal that day. So he's shown that he can do it. But I think when you look to last night, you're looking for, I guess, a difference in rhythm in the game, and Wanieri is someone who can bring that. And we saw. I. There was a moment where, again, I think it's just a long ball up top and then Rice is really good in how he anticipates the second ball. Wanieri is there to kind of just be an option, flings it to Martinelli and these his shots, probably best not to talk about.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Some might call it as a rugby conversion as opposed to a football shot, but.

[Unknown]

But it creates something. So I think that's where you're looking at, rather than making that substitution on 90 minutes, make it on 80 or even 75.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And I think it's just about Yeah, I guess. Who am I to tell Micarta? No, I know, but having that conviction, a word he spoke about quite a lot and doing it a bit earlier.

[Ayo Akimolere]

And also trusting in his own ability as a manager. Anyway, Stu, on this sort of Odegaard conversation, club captain, and you know, Mikael Arteta has spoken about how he's a different kind of club captain. He's not the one going to be coming knocking at his door and all that kind of stuff. But then you look at the searing runs Declan Rice has made yesterday to play beautiful passes. You see the. The free kicks that Declan Rice scored and he's also the set peace taker sometimes of this team. Is there an argument that perhaps there should be a conversation about who that club captain looks like next season, perhaps? Or is it just Rice's role is just very different to the way Michael Arteta sees Erdogan operating?

[Unknown]

Yeah, I kind of thought this after the second leg against Real Madrid when Rice was just magnificent. I know he was across both those games, but I think it takes another personality again to go and play like that in the Bernabeu like he did driving the Arsenal team on so many actions on the pitch, where you see him without the ball, too, whether it's like that instant I described the party, how frustrated he was with him in that moment before the game last night, you could see him saying to his teammates, he had them in a huddle in a way that you might expect to see Odegaard talking in that moment and saying, without the ball, we've got to die for each other. Without the ball, I said earlier, he's the one who's saying calm when the goal goes in. So in a way, I kind of feel the armband doesn't matter. I don't think the armband would change how Rice plays the game. I think he is just a leader. With or without it, would he be a more natural fit for that role? In my eyes, yes, absolutely. But then I think the whole narrative around captaincy has changed so much over time. And there would have been a point when it had to be a Roy Keane or a John Terry or going back years ago, a kind of Brian Robson. Now. I think people look for different things than a captain, and they look for the way the player plays and not just whether they're really vocal on the pitch or in the dressing room. But I'm sure if they'd have arrived at different times and Rice was there first, Rice would be the captain kind of thing. It'd probably be a weird thing now to Take it off Martin Odegaard. Unless Arteta felt that the captaincy was affecting his performance. I'm not sure. No, far better than me on that. But I don't sense that is part of the reason why he's not been at it. The point I'm trying to make is I don't think Arsenal lose anything by Rice not having the armband. I think he just plays all in every game and I think he's a natural leader.

Yeah. So on that, I think Stuart's right, because when I think back to when Erdogan was given the captaincy, so summer 22, Granit Xhaka was actually put up for a little roundtable that was ahead of the release of the all or Nothing documentary. And obviously captaincy was a big topic at the time because he'd previously worn it and it just gone to Odegaard. And his sentiment was he didn't need the armband to lead. And I think that's something that was really poignant at the time because he is obviously a lot more outspoken, a lot more vocal than Erdogan was, but he's still allowed to be that person even if he doesn't have the armband. I think Odegaard as a captain isn't going to be precious about who is giving the messages to his teammates. If that's more in Declan Rice's skill set or at the time, Granit Xhaka's skill set, they can do that and they can still be a leader. They don't need a piece of cloth around the arm. So I think that from Stewart is probably very accurate. Also, I think when you look at the makeup of Arsenal's leadership group, which is something that's been going on since Mika Arteta's been in, in the club, is something that's still evolving. So I think Erdogan is in there and then Saka Bukayo, Saka, who had the captaincy when Erdogan was injured earlier this season, he only joined that leadership group in the summer because of the turnover of players, more experienced players leaving. I think you've also got Gabriel Jesus and Jorginho in there as well. I think Declan Rice will be coming into his third season next year, so it probably makes sense if he joins that group and then you can probably see a bit more from him in that respect. But for now, I think he's just do it. He's just, I guess, conducting himself in the way he would naturally anyway. So on the pitch, it wouldn't really matter who has that little, little piece of cloth on their arm.

[Raj Panjabi]

Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.

[Noah Michelson]

And I'm Noah Michaelson, also from HuffPost.

[Raj Panjabi]

And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.

[Noah Michelson]

Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.

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Doctors, PhDs all around superheroes from HuffPost and Acast Studios. Check out Am I Doing It Wrong? Wherever you get your podcasts, is it.

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[Adrian Clarke]

This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Acamolera.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Look it is not over between Arsenal and psg. There is still another leg to play well after the game. Mikel Arteta was keen to relay the fact that it's only half time in the tie. We are half time half time and my message being exactly the same post Real Madrid at home 3 now is we have to go to Paris and win the game and we are more than capable of doing it because I saw two very good teams where the margins are so small and they had efficiency in front of the goal and their keeper as well made a difference to see the result that we've seen tonight. Gents, how do Arsenal turn This around, Stu. How did they stage their own remontada? I hate saying it because now I've cursed it, but. What. What you reckon, Stu? How do they come back into it? Because 1 nil. There's still a lot to play for.

[Unknown]

There absolutely is, yeah. It's difficult though, isn't it? There's no two ways about it. You know, this is a real challenge now to go to Paris and to come up with a game plan to find a way of winning there. I find it hard to believe PSG won't score. Stating the bleeding obvious there. Then Arsenal have got to get at least two to take it. Depends. Maybe three, you know, so that's a real challenge. Party being available, I think will allow them to have a better structure with the team. It's like last night, I feel that it would have been the kind of night where you want to bring Trossard off the bench, but obviously because of Party being suspended and all the injuries Arsenal have, they don't have that kind of luxury. So, you know what I mentioned earlier about that PSG right side, where Hakimi pushes forward so much, I think Arsenal have got to try and exploit those areas. They will have to be disciplined. They can't go chasing the goal, obviously, early on in the match. But we did see, albeit it was at Villa park, it's different because this is in Paris. We did see what happened if you could get into a bit of a rhythm against PSG and turn up the pressure a little bit, really. So, yeah, it's. It's going to be very, very hard. It will need an absolute master class from Arteta, I think, to go over there and come up with the right game plan and execute it. Arsenal will need every player right at it. They'll need their big players. Saka performing really at the top of their game, which he is more than capable of doing. And they'll have to be perfect defensively too. So it's asking a lot, but it's not impossible. It's one goal, you know, and if you can. And if you can, you know, go ahead over there, put a few doubts in their minds, which we saw in that game at Villa park, you know, who knows? But, yeah, they've come up against, I think at this moment in time, probably the best team in Europe.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, Rhythm, finding rhythm. That's definitely something Luis Enrique really did well to sort of nullify in Arsenal. And that was a home leg. How did they find that collective? Does party make that difference? Difference, yeah.

[Unknown]

So for me, I'm not sure if they would try and approach the game the same way. So I think before the PSV game, so round of 16, I asked Arteta what the difference between Arsenal in the Champions League last season and this season was, and he said, away, they're a lot more consistent in what they do. And a lot of that came down to how they put pressure on teams, the way they act defensively, not just in their own box, but high up the pitch as well. So I think in their performance, Real Madrid at the Burnabout, they probably have a little bit of a blueprint because pate comes back in, Marino moves up top, and then, to be fair, that night, the outlet was actually Saka instead of Marina. So I think there, you don't have to go all guns blaze and try and be imposing on the ball from the first minute. You can kind of, I guess, get yourselves into the game first and then grow, grow with it. So, yeah, for me, me, I'm not in a place where I'm thinking, yeah, go to PSG and try and out football them, basically, because I think you probably lose that game if you try and play it. I think they can be a bit more patient. And then also, I just think when we spoke about the women's game earlier, when they went out to Lyon, the timing of their goals were critical. They scored early on in the first half. They scored in added time, just before half time, within 30 seconds of the second half. So if you're, I guess, lucky enough to have situations at critical moments, you just have to take advantage of them as well.

[Ayo Akimolere]

I think it's really important, testing the mental resolve of this young PSG side as well, to see how solid they are if Aston Villa. The game Aston Villa was anything to go by can be shaken now, Stu. And I want to finish on this with both of you, actually. How much has this Champions League campaign really frame the entirety of Arsenal season? I think they've got Bournemouth next. Arsenal are firmly in second. The league has been won. Now, does how they do in this Champions League actually dictate how we feel about their progression under Arteta this season?

[Unknown]

I guess it does to a large extent, because it's. It must be hard for the Arsenal players now to have that much motivation for the Premier League games. And obviously, they've done brilliantly in Europe this season. Their record's been superb. And that Real Madrid game would be talked about for a long, long time. The two of them, you know, magnificent performances home and away. But it would be a real shame now if they. If they fall at the semi final hurdle, there'll be no disgrace in that because the caliber of the team they're up against. But I just feel this has been that, that fire, that steel flickering away, away in the season when we know the Premier League had gone. Realistically, I know Liverpool only just won the title, title. In a lot of our minds they'd won it ages ago. So the Champions League, the fact that Arsenal were still in it and really impressing it, you know, it must have been something for them all to hold on to. And they've still got that at this moment in time. So I guess you will look back on it if they don't turn it around in the second leg and you can still see it. Okay. They haven't progressed in the Premier League and they'll feel frustrated because City have fallen off a cliff. And on the face of it, there was a real opportunity there for Arsenal this season. Injuries have played a part in that. There are reasons why it hasn't quite happened. But they'll be frustrated with all the games they've drawn in the Premier League too, in drop points. Another time they could have been really close to Liverpool. The Champions League feels like they've made fantastic strides in it, but, ah, there would be that regret if they don't get through now in this semi final, you know, and that will hopefully really give them great motivation going to Paris, you know, hopefully they can put off something spectacular.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah. Does it help that this is what they've got to play for for the rest of the season are really. Because also obliterating Real Madrid's one thing, not finishing the job is another. And also I guess it's yet again another symptom if Arsenal don't do it in the Champions League of Arsenal season. Fundamentally stumbling at the final block. And I know personnel injuries and all that kind of stuff does play a massive difference, but you can feel that narrative already.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah. I think ahead of the game you could feel from Mikel Arteta how big this was for him personally and for the club. It was the first time they've reached this stage since 2000, 2009. And I think he made a really big deal about that because when you look at how this season has gone, if we was to have this conversation maybe a month or six weeks ago, you'd maybe say it was a season to forget. Now the hope's returned and I'm not sure it's the hope that kills you, mate. I'm not sure that's. Sorry to say it, I'm not Sure.

[Ayo Akimolere]

That's better for your heart.

[Unknown]

Exactly. So I think to, to close the season, it is a really massive thing for them because it is what gives them meaning. And one thing he spoke about again, I asked him about Jose Mourinho and that football heritage phrase he kind of spun out a few years ago because Arsenal have none really in European competitions. And he said that being in this stage has to be purposeful. Basically, you can't just be in the Champions League. To be in the Champions League, the games actually have to mean something. And that's where I think Arsenal need to shift towards. They did that with their win over Real Madrid. I mean, next week still means something as well, but I think to really be a team, I think you have to make the most of those moments when you're in them. Hopefully they can do that next week and also that would give them, I think, even more confidence going into next season as well.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Right, let's leave it there. Art Studio thanks so much for joining us. We'll be back tomorrow.

[Unknown]

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Hey, folks, it's Marc Maron from WTF. It's been more than 15 years now, and I'm still talking to all kinds of people in my garage every week. Sometimes it's Bill Burr, sometimes it's Ariana Grande. She just looks at me because she's always going like, dad, it's not that big a deal.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

I go, sorry, I lost my temper. I go, I still love you. You know, Daddy has issues.

Are you afraid of it?

Of death? Well, I don't know.

I think about it all the time.

[Raj Panjabi]

How are we here already?

[Unknown]

Listen to WTF with Marc Maron twice a week on your favorite podcast app. Or get more WTF with a WTF plus subscription. Just go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.

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