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- [00:00]
LinkedIn Sales Navigator
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- [01:16]
Raj Panjabi
Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.
- [01:18]
Noah Michaelson
And I'm Noah Michaelson, also from HuffPost.
- [01:21]
Raj Panjabi
And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [01:28]
Noah Michaelson
Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.
- [01:36]
Raj Panjabi
And we're talking like legit credible experts.
- [01:38]
Noah Michaelson
Doctors, PhDs all around superheroes from HuffPost and Acast Studios. Check out Am I Doing It Wrong? Wherever you get your podcasts with an.
- [01:47]
Chase Sapphire Lounge
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- [02:15]
Bruno Fernandes
Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit approval.
- [02:21]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [02:27]
Ayo Akinwale
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimwalere. After 10 years, 13 major honors and 6 Premier League titles. Kevin De Bruyne is leaving Manchester City. So where does he rank amongst the best to play in the Premier League? And how do City go about replacing him? Here with us today, we have our football correspondent David Ordstein and Manchester City Lee as well. Sam, Kevin De Bruyne made his announcement on Friday prior to the Manchester Derby, which I know you were at on Sunday, let's be honest. Right. It's not going to be one that lives in the memory, is it? And Roy King called it the friendly derby. Not much incident at all.
- [03:09]
Bruno Fernandes
Yeah. Somebody got in touch with me about a podcast I do. And he said, have we just watched De Bruyne's testimonial? And that's kind of how it felt like the game was exactly like that. There was no real tension in it. It was a nice sunny day. De Bruyne got on the ball a bit, but, you know, if it was a testimonial, they would have found a penalty to give him to slot in. But anything beyond that at the moment is that's. Look, we can talk and we will talk about how good he's been for so long, but the reason that City had made the decision to move him on is because he's not that player anymore and we can't. We saw that yesterday. Really?
- [03:40]
Ayo Akinwale
Yeah. David, were you surprised to hear that announcement on Friday? Because as Sam just said, you know, even if we watched yesterday's match, I mean, it's fair to say De Bruyne has not had a dazzling season at all. And you think about his age profile and you think about the business of football. Was it a surprise for you?
- [03:58]
David Ornstein
He's not had the best of seasons by his standards or City's, and that's influenced by his injury record over the last couple of seasons and Father Time, you know, the passage of years, of miles on the clock of age, and it seems to have been handled in a pretty mature way. Was I shocked? Not particularly. It's around this time of the year that we start to hear these things about players at multiple clubs, especially when their contracts are drawing towards a close. In the case of, say, Virgil van Dijk and Mo Salah at Liverpool, we've been hearing positive noises about contract renewals and optimism for some time. That hasn't been the case with Kevin De Bruyne. And so you kind of get a sense of the direction of travel for quite some months when you're in our position. We reported quite a while ago that he had multiple options, such as the mls, Saudi Arabia, maybe Europe and staying at City and. I don't know, the more people you spoke to, the more it felt like a clean break was coming. Okay, Pep Guard Guardiola stayed on, but this is going to be a summer of significant change at Manchester City. They've got a new sporting director who has actually now started, I believe. And, you know, we're going to see some departures, we're going to see some arrivals and Kevin de Bruyne bidding farewell. I don't think it felt unnatural, to be honest. I think it's something that probably was acknowledged by all parties. They're grown up about these things. I think the conversations behind the scenes have been taking place for quite some time. I'm not aware of any animosity. It seems to be pretty amicable. Sam may know more on who sort of drove it. It's the end of an era. It's quite sad. Got amazing memories of Kevin de Bruyne on the whole. Some difficult moments, too. It was sad seeing his injuries and the anguish on his face. He's such a winner. He's a very bad loser. And I say that in the nicest possible way. And he's done more of the opposite. He's been a great success. He's proved a lot of people wrong after his time at Chelsea. And there are not many people at and around Manchester City of their fan base, of other fan bases and other clubs who don't hold him in the highest regard and with the utmost of respect.
- [06:07]
Ayo Akinwale
Yeah, absolutely. Spot on, David. Sam, on that point, who drove it, and also, you know, City parting with a proper legend of the club. You know, Pep Guardiola spoke lightly about potentially them giving him in a stat, a statue. You know, he's of that stature at City and what they've represented for the last 10 or so years. How difficult would that decision have been to make?
- [06:27]
Bruno Fernandes
I think that's why you've got people involved in these decisions that can look at it with cold eyes. It would have been difficult in that sense. You know, Guardiola talked on Friday about so many different things. You know, the statue and, you know, Guardiola said it was, you know, him and Cheeky Baguillstein, the sporting director. But he talked about, you know, we've been together apart from international breaks, apart from, like, holidays and stuff. We've been together, like, every day for 10 years and all the ups and downs and how close they must be. So in that respect, they've been through so much together. Like, as much as Guardiola spoke warmly about him, I Don't think anything could convey the kind of relationship between them as the video of after the Champions League final when they were hugging and he was just like, we did it, we did it, Kev. Like so many years, we did it. That is the relationship between them. So in that respect it would be difficult. But whether it's Guardiola or Bagheera Stein or also like the money men saying, we can't pay this guy 400 grand a week anymore, you've got to look at it coldly and be like, it is time to move on. Because for every amazing thing that he's done, all the goals he scored, all the things he did with his left foot, all the assists, everything that he did and everything that he won and the reason that he may well get a statue, because you know, as well as said, they got three already. They got Kompany, Aguero and Silva, who are kind of like the original modern day legends.
- [07:37]
Ayo Akinwale
He's literally up there.
- [07:38]
Bruno Fernandes
Yeah, but he's up there with them. And also like, he's got the Champions League. Now. Obviously he didn't like play a huge role in that final itself because that's when his hamstring went. But like, he like, he basically sacrificed himself to help get City there. Like he spoke to a friend of mine after the FA cup final when they beat United. So obviously one game left next Saturday, seven days, it's the game against Inter Istanbul. He's like, my hamstring's going. It's going like, it's. It's like we are in the red zone now. But like, what are you going to do? Like, we're going to play and they went in the final and then obviously it went a couple of months later after he came back. And that's another part of like his legacy and how difficult it would be to be like, yeah, you can't just say goodbye to these guys lightly. But that's why, you know, there might be a statue. He's going to get a big send off. He's getting the love from the crowd after the derby yesterday, you know, the fans were chanting his name, he was waving to him, that kind of stuff. But you have got to look at it coldly and be like, well, we can't keep this guy around on sentiment because he can't really do it anymore to that level. And again, the wages are astronomical for somebody who's, you know, you could pay 400 grand a week to somebody who's going to be the best player on the team. But when he's not, it's like, okay, let's, let's think about this sensibly. Yeah.
- [08:40]
Ayo Akinwale
Do you know what this means for him for the Club World Cup, David? Is his contract up before or after or just before? Because I know there's a, there's also a particular transfer window that they've, they've introduced for that period of time. But like, do we know whether or not he can stay on for an extra two weeks, for instance?
- [08:55]
David Ornstein
That's a really good question. Yeah, I don't know the intricacies of it. These contracts run until June 30, so there'll be a period potentially at the Club World cup when, when somebody's out of contract, I don't know if they can do a little extension or whether he walks away from this. Sam, do you know on the particulars around that?
- [09:11]
Bruno Fernandes
Well, just in terms of the extensions, I think FIFA have said, well look you, the clubs can sort it out for themselves. And I think Dan Sheldon did an article for the Athletic in December about it and he was like, there's nothing in UK law or like Premier League rules that like state a minimum amount of time for a contract. So if City said, well, do you want a two week contract? And he wanted to do it, then that would be possible. So he could sign an extension until the middle of July. As it stands, like you say June 30th is when the contract would expire, that would be enough for him to play the group stages at the Club World Cup. But if he wanted to stay for the whole Club World cup, if you wanted to go there at all and City did go beyond June 30th, they could theoretically offer him that, that two week extension.
- [09:49]
David Ornstein
I can't imagine they would do it on a technicality. He plays a bit of it and then he departs it. Surely if he's in, they find a contractual way to make it possible. Sam, do you think he wants to play it? Do we have a sense on that? Because I've seen some commentary sort of saying the sort of person Kevin de Bruyne is, the season will end and he'll go off into the sunset and consider his next steps. He won't put his, his body at risk. But on the flip side, it's tournament and it could be the kind of, not the crowning glory, but the sort of bit of a cherry on the cake, the final goodbye at this different tournament that City can attack in terms of it's not a new competition but it's in a new format.
- [10:28]
Bruno Fernandes
Look at this stage, I'm not sure, but I think it's a really interesting question in terms of, like, a lot of City players. Because, like, let's say Edison goes this summer. He wanted to go last summer. Nobody would meet his valuation. Bernardo Silva, every summer there's like, he could go Liberty matches somewhere else, isn't he? Yeah, exactly. But it's like, well, if these guys were to go, would they think, well, I don't want to kind of give up my summer and then potentially play until like early July or even like middle of July, if they get to the final and then go and join somebody else's preseason and then start the season again. Because they might think in that frame of mind, or they might think, well, I'm a City player and I want to help my teammate and help the lads win another trophy. I think it's just going to be like, highly individualized situations and scenarios and like, the fact that we don't know yet. I mean, in terms of this decision, it feels like. And I don't know, but it feels like obviously City told de Bruyne what the decision was. It feels like maybe the timing of his statement caught them out a bit, because City's statement to go along with it was. It wasn't like the big all singing, all dancing, like, let's say, celebrate. Kevin de Bruyne. We got all this content ready to go. It was. Oh, it felt like it was six paragraphs. It felt like they had to put it together quickly. Guardiola was like 15 minutes late for the press conference because de Bruyne to announce it, like, 12 press conference is supposed to start at half 12. And just little things like that. You think maybe they didn't know he was going to announce it then, so maybe he hasn't had time to think yet, like, oh, I can move to this club, but when am I actually going to do it? And then he maybe needs to decide, will it be at the end of the domestic season or will I actually stay? And also, if the clubs wanted to sign him, they might say, well, no, we do want you from July 1st. So then would he then do the halfway house kind of thing of playing the groups stage and then go to. It seems unusual, but these are things that they're gonna have to work out for themselves, really.
- [12:08]
David Ornstein
What Sam lays out there about the announcement reminds me of Wenger's departure from Arsenal, where everybody kind of knew it was coming to this point, but who was actually going to sort of pull the plug and who was going to announce it? And Wenger, I Think came out with a short statement on the Arsenal website, and there wasn't kind of this ceremonial outpouring. It then triggered a series of events and they started putting preparations on for the final game of the season. But that shows that these things behind the scenes are maybe not quite as coordinated as it was.
- [12:40]
Bruno Fernandes
The same with Pep, actually. Yeah, because it was Pellegrini who said, I want to kind of get ahead of this. And because, like, right, this is a proper tangent, but, like, it was basically the last day of the transfer window. Pellegrini never said anything. City weren't signing anybody. We were like, this is going to be the deadest kind of press conference ever. We've been asking about his future all season. Never said anything. So not going to ask today. I think City would have quite liked for us to ask because then he could have said, actually, yeah, I'm going to leave at the end of the season. But it got to the stage where went through the press conference, nothing happened. He was on his way out and he turned around on his way out of the door and said, actually, I've got an announcement to make. Like, at the end of the season, I'm finishing my contract. And it's like, wow, okay. And then you get to the bottom of this, you walk out of the press room, which is upstairs, and City had people there handing out a statement, and it said, I'm kind of getting goosebumps now remembering it. It was like, you know, we can confirm that Pep Guardiola will be taking over from the end of this. Like, no way.
- [13:29]
David Ornstein
No way.
- [13:31]
Bruno Fernandes
And I think that was because they obviously agreed with Pep and Pellegrini's like, you know what? Like, I don't want to be the sitting duck here. Like, I've got to have some control over this. So I want. I want to. I want to tell the world now we're going to kind of do it on my terms kind of thing. But it was quite messy because nobody asked him during the press conference.
- [13:45]
Ayo Akinwale
Yeah, David, you do think about this. Like, everyone's got their own little agenda in a weird way. And obviously, like, clubs have got their idea of what they want, but also we forget there are individuals involved in this. In the case of Kevin de Bruyne, perhaps there was something inside it. It was like, I just got to let people know. But he hadn't even spoken to the. Really fascinating, because we do have this sort of idea that football clubs are these, well, sort of structured, organized spaces. But there we have it again. Clubs not ready, but Players ready and. And they just go about and do whatever they need to do.
- [14:12]
David Ornstein
Yeah. None more so than Man City in terms of being well structured. There are few at their level and these guys are. Are all intelligent, including De Bruyne in this conversation. And, and I'm not sure Sam will know better than me. When Pep Guardiola said in his press conference that it was the club and he was asked again who was making this call. It's a club. And then people have said to me since that really the club would have known from Kevin and Kevin would have known from the club. And they're kind of on the same wavelength. It was the end. So maybe it's just kind of semantics on who jumped first. And. And players do like to sort of take control of these things a bit more these days. Let's see what happens with some, you know, potential notable departures at other clubs this summer. Do we see the player go first? Sometimes they do. On when they're transfers and new contracts now and exits and maybe Kevin de Bruyne wanted to sort of take control of it himself. He's got a slightly different setup because, you know, many players have a big agency or agent that's doing all their negotiations. And we learned over the course of De Bruyne, his last contract, I think it was that he kind of was doing it with his father. There was a bit of mess in the background.
- [15:22]
Bruno Fernandes
A lot of the talks himself, didn't he?
- [15:23]
David Ornstein
A lot of the talk.
- [15:24]
Ayo Akinwale
I forget the data he collected on his performance as well. Right, Yeah, I remember that.
- [15:28]
David Ornstein
Yeah.
- [15:29]
Bruno Fernandes
He couldn't do that this time.
- [15:31]
David Ornstein
He did his own data analysis and, and then other players I know who have taken inspiration from that in. In their own contract negotiations. It's almost like the de Bruyne contract talk style. Maybe that's part of his legacy as well. He's influencing. Influencing football across the board. Sam mentioned the. The Champions League final. There is a bit of sadness in the de Bruyne story. Only. Only a little bit. They sort of trudged off. It was in Istanbul was. And he. He almost knew he didn't look like. Because sometimes he's been very emotional, but he didn't look entirely surprised. Maybe that was because of what Sam explains on. On the FA Cup Final and, and his hamstring was a bit of a risk. You know, he. He went off and. And I felt it was like business still needed to be done. He was still full part of the celebrations. It was like Zidane getting sent off in the 2006 World Cup Final. It was like the game lost its best player. And you, you feel that the purist in you is like, ah, it's not quite the same.
- [16:27]
Ayo Akinwale
See it through. Yeah.
- [16:28]
David Ornstein
And, and you know, there were moments and injuries where he repeatedly has been getting injured in the final few years where you're just like, you wonder, what if he could have been even better? And, and, and he would have been so annoyed at that. There's a couple of clips that spring to mind immediately, Sam, like when he had a bit of a go at Pep Guardiola telling him to shut up a few years ago. And he also has, like, argued with teammates coming off the pitch when they' badly. He's a little petulant. But I say it in, in the nicest possible way, which is in sharp contrast to this demeanor. Off the pitch. He seems so calm and I know a lot of people in, in the local area who know him and, and they speak of him being such a gentleman and, and you saw when he used his timeout injured and he suddenly pops up with people at Formula One and he's out in Abu Dhabi and he's got a new hairstyle, he seems for me. Yeah, but he, he was an absolute force of nature on the football pitch. And that goal. Sam, you and I were both there against Arsenal when they kind of won that decisive match where he swept in.
- [17:29]
Bruno Fernandes
That finish, passed into the bottom corner.
- [17:31]
David Ornstein
Yeah. In the first he probably could have.
- [17:34]
Bruno Fernandes
Run further, but for the hamstring he just. I can't run any further, but I can pass it into the bottom corner, so I'm just going to do that.
- [17:39]
David Ornstein
Legend you described it. IO is the right word.
- [17:42]
Ayo Akinwale
Okay, well, let's move on. Let's really celebrate him in the next bit because we'll discuss. De Bruyne is standing amongst the greats of the Premier League era.
- [17:50]
David Ornstein
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akinw. Right.
- [17:56]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
As a salesperson, the search for the right buyer or buying groups can feel like you're endlessly sifting through leads and hoping they're ready to buy. Thankfully, LinkedIn Sales Navigator is more than just a tool. It's your strategic sales partner. LinkedIn Sales Navigator is a sales intelligence platform that helps professionals effectively prospect and engage high value customers, drive higher revenue and increase sales performance. Sales Navigator helps you target the right buyers, surface key signals such as job changes or which accounts you should prioritize, and shows you hidden allies so that you can find those buyers that are most likely to convert. Whether you're looking for new clients or strengthening relationships of current accounts. LinkedIn Sales Navigator has new AI features designed to help sellers find the right people and get right to the right conversations, all at scale. Fueled by LinkedIn's 1 billion-member platform, Sales Navigator gives you the most up to date first party data enabling you to unlock conversations with the people that matter. Ready to get right to the right conversations? Try LinkedIn Sales Navigator now with a 60 day free trial at LinkedIn.com NBashow23 that's LinkedIn.com NBashow23 for a 60 day free trial. Terms and conditions apply.
- [19:17]
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- [19:46]
Raj Panjabi
Excludes restaurants hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.
- [19:50]
Noah Michaelson
And I'm Noah Michelson, also from HuffPost.
- [19:52]
Raj Panjabi
And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [19:59]
Noah Michaelson
Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.
- [20:07]
Raj Panjabi
And we're talking like legit credible experts.
- [20:10]
Noah Michaelson
Doctors, PhDs all around superheroes from HuffPost and Acast Studios. Check out Am I Doing It Wrong wherever you get your podcasts.
- [20:25]
Bruno Fernandes
Oh, he made the Premier League better. He made if City is where he is and Man United hasn't won many, many trophies in this period. It's also because of Kevin De Bruyne and he deserves all the credit. He's done fantastic. Ten years in the Premier League is a lot and he's going to stay in the history of the Premier League, not only of Man City.
- [20:42]
Ayo Akinwale
Bruno Fernandes there speaking with Sky Sports after the Manchester Derby on de Bruyne's impact on the Premier League. Now he's won six Premier League titles and is one of only three players to be named Premier League Player of the Year twice. Sam, on the articles on the athletic around Kevin de Bruyne and his legacy, you wrote how he sort of transcended eras. You look at that Barclays era, particular icons there. He's transcended that. Undoubtedly one of the best we've ever seen, surely.
- [21:12]
Bruno Fernandes
Well, I think so. I mean, I did write in the article because, you know, in my case, I was growing up at that point, but I know that some of the more experienced journalists that I work with on the Manchester patch, you know, they were starting out in, like, the early 2000s. So it's like, either way, we were either working it or watching it. And it's like there's like a glass ceiling of like, right, it's Gerrard, it's Lampard, it's Henri, it's Roy Keane, it's Vieira, Paul Scholes, Giggs, Alan Shearer and our experiences. And now if you watch an England game on itv, it's Roy Keane and Ian Wright, and then it might be Gary Neville during the summer, if you watch sky, it's Roy Keane, Gary Neville, Jamie Carragher. Listen to the overlap. It's those three and that's the generation, and it's just kind of cemented. And it feels like since. I don't know who would have been the most recent of those to retire, but maybe Lampard. Since then, nobody from the more recent last 10, 15 years has broken into that. Like, Hazard hasn't broken into that. But I feel like it's going to be De Bruyne and it's going to be Salah. And I feel like they're going to be the ones to be like, actually, because partly, like, we're getting old now, like, all these great things de Bruyne did, some of them were like seven or eight years ago. You're looking back, where did that time go? But he's also got that kind of nostalgia element on his side, but also the quality to be like, yeah, this. This guy is in the conversation with, like, Lampard and Gerard, and we're still stuck on these talking points from about 20 years ago, like Keno, Vieira, Lampard or Gerrard, it's like. And where does skull sitting all that? You know, it's like, it does. It doesn't matter now. Let's just put De Bruyne and we can kind of have that conversation later. But, yeah, I feel like just because of how good him and Salah have been, they will enter into that debate that nobody else has managed in the last 10 years. You know, David Silva's left City. City fans love him, but he never quite got that wider recognition. Aguero got it a bit more in later years, but I don't Think, you know, when he left people, oh, maybe he's the best overseas player in Premier League history. But I feel like that's died down now. I know Carragher, I think said the same about De Bruyne now, but I feel like that might endure a bit more if we're having these conversations in five years. I still feel like De Bruyne and soon Salah will be in that and like obviously it's just hugely deserved because, you know, obviously the City team itself, probably the best team in the Premier League era. I mean we'll get to the 115, 130 when that bridge comes. But in terms of the football they played pending all that, they've got to be the best, everything they've achieved and then he was the best player in that for so long.
- [23:33]
Ayo Akinwale
Okay, well, to give us a bit more perspective on the brilliance of Kevin De Bruyne, let's hear from our football data writer, Tom Harris on the Belgian's impact.
- [23:45]
Tom Harris
I think the thing for me about Kevin De Bruyne is that while his output was ridiculous, he practically averaged an assist every two games across 10 years in the Premier League, which is unheard of. It was that he was aesthetically pleasing to watch in a different kind of way, in that he was brutally efficient. Just being able to rely on him to find the answer so often is what City are going to miss. There was that Newcastle game last season where he came off the bench for the final 20 minutes, scored and then set up Oscar Bob for last minute winner.
- [24:15]
Bruno Fernandes
De Bruyne. Oh, he's picked out Oscar bomb. City win it.
- [24:23]
Tom Harris
KDB probably, you know, turned the tide in City's favor in that title win. And then of course there was the assist against Aston Villa on the last game of the the season. You know, just before that he was kneeling down, tying up his shoelaces. And that will probably go down as one of the enduring images of his City career. This kind of, you know, fine, I'll do it myself. And that's exactly what he did.
- [24:46]
David Ornstein
In goes De Bruyne. De Bruyne.
- [24:53]
Tom Harris
So yeah, it's that mix of hard work and talent, the brutality of it all that City are really going to miss. You know, he had those moments of genius and creativity, but he also had that ability just to power through and really use his kind of game breaking ability to take games away and keep City on top for so, so long.
- [25:16]
Ayo Akinwale
Yeah, thanks for that, Tom. I'm some insane stats, David. You know, incredible consistency, 118 Premier League assists in total at a rate of one every 177 minutes. But also add to that in 10 years, six Premier League titles, Champions League, two FA Cups, five League Cups. I mean, these are unbelievable stats, but also I think just really represent he means to the dominance of Manchester City under Pep Guardiola. Let's not also forget Pep Guardiola inherited him and has kept it on.
- [25:47]
David Ornstein
Yeah, he is in the pantheon of greats, there's no doubt about it. And when you read those numbers, when you think about the longevity of his brilliance despite the injuries and the background of it not going so well at Chelsea, rebuilding at Wolfsburg and then hitting the ground running with, with really high expectations, yeah, there was a lot of quality around him. And City's success was not only on him, although he did carry the team at times. When you look at those goal scoring and assist figures, I remember in the 90s growing up watching football, when somebody, and it would always be a striker got to a hundred goals, they would bring out a video or later a DVD marking it. But he's a midfielder, he's a playmaker and he surpassed that number. He's also surpassed it easily on assists. His trophies are better than most, like on a Top Trump's card. Now he would win on every category he has starred in in some of their most iconic performances. Real Madrid in the Champions League. 4 nil. I mean, it was Silva who got a couple of goals that night. But De Bruyne made Manchester City tick because some of the greatest players get accused of not turning up in the biggest matches. And we've talked about how he was afflicted by injury in the Champions League final, but I'll never forget that. 4 nil. It was just remarkable. He's also like a brilliant guy, clearly. And you know, Sam talks about Salah. They are not the flashiest players in football by a long way. Of course they have egos like doesn't everybody? But. But not in a negative way. They're not sort of falling into the modern stereotype of the flashest of cars and the most flamboyant of tattoos and dress senses. Like, you would easily see a De Bruyne and a Salah. They live in the same area down at the park the following morning, pushing their kids on the swings, having starred in a man of the match performance in the Champions League or Premier League to inspire their team towards titles. So De Bruyne has had it all and he's probably been the symbol of, of the Pep Guardiola era. Even though he predated him, he's been the consistent. Whereas great players have come and gone and, and you could say unfair on the likes of Bernardo Silva because he's, he's done incredible things but he's often wanted to leave and it hasn't happened. There's been no real suggestion of de Bruyne leaving, wanting to leave, being poached. He's been there and he's the sort of player that maybe, and I don't say this with any disrespect at all, if he was at a, I don't know, Liverpool or Manchester United and Arsenal, maybe he would get more headlines, maybe he would be held up in brighter lights because City's success is still maybe a more modern phenomenon for many fans and audiences and sections of the media. There's the charges situation around them that in some people's minds put a bit of an asterisk around it all. There's a bit of jealousy out there, no doubt. So despite us rightly lavishing him with praise, perhaps it could be even greater and in time will probably reflect on it in a more spectacular way.
- [29:01]
Ayo Akinwale
Yeah, I'm just thinking, Sam, when we talk about Salah and de Bruyne, these are two players that were under Chelsea's books, funny enough. And you know, sometimes when you look at certain players, it's not that they're not good, it's just that they're just not going to be working under a particular structure. It's fair to say that Manchester City for de Bruyne in particular was the right structure, right level of ambition. But also they got him at a time where he was just hitting his peak post Wolfsburg.
- [29:26]
Bruno Fernandes
Yeah, obviously he's talked about the comments as well, you know, the, the kind of Sky Sports comments. You wouldn't pay to watch him and like 55 million quid for this guy.
- [29:34]
Tom Harris
There's players you see and you think.
- [29:35]
Bruno Fernandes
Yeah, I just don't see this. I don't see 50 odd million for this player. I really do not see it at all. And this is someone who was at, at the top club in England, Chelsea, playing there and didn't, didn't click. It's not, you know, so he's played here before. Again, talking about us getting old. I think this was when 55 million seems like a lot of money. 55 million, a lot of money.
- [29:57]
Ayo Akinwale
Savage.
- [29:58]
Bruno Fernandes
Well, I mean in football is it. That's just kind of like. Yeah, okay, that like for like a big club, it's like 55 million. It's like that's a solid player that it's not like the star player. But yeah, there was a lot of the comments about that. Not really sure about this guy. Like, he left Chelsea and they cashed in at the right time. And he's obviously proved that massively wrong. But it's kind of the thing about City's recruitment certainly at that point. I think there's probably a bit more doubt about it now after, you know, Calvin Phillips and Matus Nunes and the way the season's gone. But around that period, they went, okay, yeah, well, Raheem Sterling, Kevin De Bruyne, Bernardo Silva, Edison, like, how inspiration, like, how inspired was that, like, to pick Edison out? They needed Edison to hit the ground running that first season after the problems he'd had with Bravo. And he, like, he just did. It was perfect. Carl Walker, the guys they identified in that kind of era, Stones, Gundogan, they just bought like seven would be legends. Like, it was nothing. It's interesting now, like, are they in the middle of doing that again with Kusanov and Mahmouch, Nico Gonzalez, or is. Was that just like this incredible kind of, I don't know, feat of director of footballism where everything just clicked at that right moment and it ultimately led to them winning the treble and then that was it? Or will this kind of. Of great City era carry on through them being able to do that again? I mean, they may well do it again, but it's easiest comment in the world. But it's not going to be easy, is it? Like, how do you, how do you go about replacing De Bruyne? You move on in a different way, and that's what City have been so good at. It took them about 18 months to replace Kompany, but they got Dias. Gundogan was able to fill in for David Silva. Obviously there was the famous we cannot replace Aguero comment and then Haaland comes.
- [31:27]
Ayo Akinwale
But we forget about that, don't we?
- [31:29]
Bruno Fernandes
Yeah, they've been able to do it. You know, Haaland's going to stay for another 10 years, so they have been able to do it and. And it is going in that direction. But I mean, they've definitely got a job on their hands this summer in terms of moving the squad forward for the last couple of years of pep.
- [31:42]
Ayo Akinwale
Yeah. Okay. Well, that brings me up nicely to my next bit, really, because we'll ask how Manchester City plan to replace one of their best ever players.
- [31:51]
David Ornstein
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akinwaleere.
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Raj Panjabi
Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi. From HuffPost.
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- [32:01]
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And we're talking like legit credible experts.
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- [33:24]
David Ornstein
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akumalaro.
- [33:29]
Ayo Akinwale
Well amongst those watching at Old Trafford on Sunday was Manchester City's incoming Director of Football, Hugo Vallarna. David, you know know there's a fair bit of work to do, but surely replacing de Bruyne has to be top of that priorities list.
- [33:44]
David Ornstein
Yep, this position is at the forefront of the minds of the Manchester City decision makers. VAR will be in that brains trust alongside Pep Guardiola and also Cheeky Baguiristan for a few more months as this transition plays out, which I think City feel has been done perfectly so far and and very smoothly, especially when you compare to how some clubs lose a sporting director and take a long time to replace them because of recruitment processes, etc. This has been pretty slick, but it doesn't mean it's easy at all. It's incredibly difficult. I guess. City have been playing quite often without de Bruyne for the last couple of seasons and therefore they've had to try and find solutions to this point. Okay, this season hasn't gone well. Last season did. And they've got two main options is internal solutions which you'd immediately think towards. Feel Bowden, is this his moment to step up? It's been a difficult time for him as well. But is this sort of his complete coming of age and. And they look to recruit in a slightly different position. Say a wider player who comes inside and helps complement it. A new sort of way of playing under largely existing players with some additions elsewhere. Or do you replace like for. Like. Let's not compare people to De Bruyne directly but in that specific position using the transfer market. I think they're in the process now of considering both options. They would have been for some because this won't have taken them internally by complete shock. It was always a possibility that he'd be going. So when you look externally they'll be surveying the best number 10s in the Premier League. The best number tens on the continent. In the Premier League. I think among the names they'll be looking at Morgan Gibbs White. You'd be mad not to. He's done fantastically at Nottingham Forest. Let's see if he's a player they would countenance the departure of in the summer window. If they would, then City and a number of others would be looking at that situation very closely. I'm sure. On the continent, the name that gets linked most heavily to City is Florian Wirtz at Bayer Leverkusen. Maybe that comes down to the price. If it's realistic, I'm sure City will be in the mix. If it's not, then they won't. Maybe he'll renew, maybe he'll go elsewhere. What we do know about City is they'll have their lists. They'll have done an unbelievable amount of work prior to Viana's arrival. Since Viana's been in this sort of hybrid role and now he's in pretty much full time time and it's a massive moment. Now there are other priorities throughout the team that they'll be looking at in different positions, but none more critical than this. De Bruyne has been the creative heartbeat of Manchester City. They're going to need to replace that and you could say the amount they've missed him this season and when he's played not being at the level we've become used to has directly impacted with other factors on a campaign that is way below their standards. Standards, yeah.
- [36:36]
Ayo Akinwale
How important is this replacement, Sam? I think about Salah and you know when people are talking about whether or not you extend his contract or not, I mean, how do you replace a player so iconic and so integral to the way Manchester City have played for a good 10 years now.
- [36:49]
Bruno Fernandes
Well, it's funny because I don't. I'd like. I don't mean to do him down. Also, I'm not going to row back on everything I've said about how good he is and everything David said, everything you've said and everything that Tom said, everything, you know. But like, when he has been injured for City a couple of times, 18, 19 season, and I think it was about 21, 22, there's been periods when he's injured and the debate among the City fans is, and like me watching, are they better without him? Like, not. Not now. Oh, well, I mean, again, like, him now is. Is not the great De Bruyne. But when everybody's ticking, you know, the false nine era, when it was just, we'll keep the ball and somebody's going to score because, well, we've got Foden, we've got Sterling, we've got Mahrez, we've got Gundogan, we've got Bernardo Silva between them. They would score enough even without a striker. And when they didn't have De Bruyne winner, they will just keep the ball that extra bit better, whether it was Fernandinho or Rodri Holden midfield. And then they just play Bernardo Silva and Gundogan and it'd be more passes and then Foden would drop in from false9 and it's more passes, it's more control and it's like, this looks pretty good, you know, like, this is. This is. All right. The biggest takeaway from that was this is how good City are, that they might arguably be better or at least they can play equally brilliantly without De Bruyne. It's not. De Bruyne is not that important after all. It's not. He's super important. It's just this team is exceptional now. We can't go into next season confident that that's going to be the case because, you know, we'd be kind of foolish to assume that everyone's necessarily going to go back to their best level. I think, you know, Bernardo Silva should still be there and I still think he'll be a great asset to them in a much more solid team after he's had a break and everything. Foden as well, similar. But it's like, like I said earlier, you don't necessarily replace these players, you just do things in a different way. And okay, if you want somebody who's going to be like Gibbs, White or Wirtz and like carry ball and be creative. That is one way to replace them. But you don't necessarily have to have that guy in the team. If you go back to the control days and look when they signed Haaland, they were like, okay, well we need this extra man because he's not Foden dropping off anymore because Haaland can't play in the same way. So it's going to be stone stepping up from centre back. And then it was like, okay, well Guardiol is going to go super high. Like they always find a way to do it and now it's like the right back going into the field, whatever. As long as they can do that and they can control the game and they've got enough people with goals threat. Because if you look around the team now I mentioned all those players any could score. Now it's Doku, now it's Grealish, now it's Savino. They've got like five goals between them and Savino and Grealish have got one each in the Premier League. Foden's got seven, but six of them came in four games in January. So like right now you can't do that. But next season, as long as they go back to pass, pass, pass, pass, control, okay, somebody's got the ball. Goal. They can do it that way. Because as much as De Bruyne has been everything we've said, they never like relied on him. They've never massively struggled when he's been out of the team. It's not because he's not as good as we've just said. It's because City have been exceptional and that's how they can kind of build their future. They don't need that kind of player. They don't need it. It'd be great if they got one, but they don't need it.
- [39:43]
David Ornstein
I am going back quite a way now, but I remember in Gundogan's first spell at City when he scored twice against Barcelona in the Champions League. And around that period, many City fans I was speaking to and people around the club were like, why isn't this guy getting more credit? Why does everybody give De Bruyne a man of the match? Each time he sort of the go to figure in Manchester City and in the public, the symbol of their rise and success. But others historically have contributed probably more than they've been given credit for. And Sam's absolutely right, they can live on without him. As difficult as it is, you don't necessarily replace him I wanted to ask Sam, actually, is it realistic that Grealish could finally get a different lease of life, play a bit more inside, or is that one that that is not likely to materialize because so many people have seen his number 10 qualities throughout his career. But at City, maybe he hasn't sort of fully fulfilled the potential that we know he has despite having great success. And one thing I should have talked about earlier in De Bruyne's greatness is he's almost like he would always win players Player of the Year award when you were kids and voted for by your peers. And Grealish was always one who has sung his praises more than anyone. Like starstruck. By playing alongside this guy, could he be the heir apparent or is that.
- [40:59]
Bruno Fernandes
Wishful thinking between now and the end of the season? Yeah, maybe because he played against Leicester last week. They had a front four with the two wingers and they had Mahmouche kind of making the runs in behind and Grealish next to him kind of dropping off. So he was central then. When he came on yesterday, he was more central. He played earlier in the season. He played central against Nottingham Forest in December and then against Juve as more of like a holding midfielder. But like. So that's why I say between now and the end of the season. Yeah, maybe because it looks like last couple of games he's getting a bit more game time. Last three games he's actually got on the pitch, which is an improvement because the other side of the coin is, is he going to be at City next season? He's had so many setbacks with injuries, but also there have been so many times when Guardiola's deemed him not ready to play, not ready to contribute, and has kind of felt like he's been at the end of his tether. With him, it's like, okay, well, there's not too many options this season, so it could be Grealish. And like, if you're asking me personally, yeah, I would love to see that because like you say, there is that potential there for him to play through the middle. We've kind of seen it and it's like, okay, if he could just harness that and do it, that would be great. And look, you're going need something like that. They're going to need that inspiration last few weeks of the season. But could it be a long term thing? I think the bigger question is like, will Grealish be at City next season? If he can kind of convince Pep, convince himself, I don't know. Stay Fit stay mentally at it then? Yeah, maybe. But I almost feel like, okay, let's see how it goes next, like six weeks. That would be great. If so beyond that, there's a bigger discussion to be held.
- [42:20]
Ayo Akinwale
Yes, definitely. Right. We've spoken about De Bruyne and potential of replacing him. I'm just thinking about the business City. You've already done, David. It's still going to be a decent summer for them as well with some incomings, if not replacing De Bruyne being a priority. But any, any whispers of anyone they might be looking at or positions in particular they might be thinking about?
- [42:37]
David Ornstein
I think this will be first and foremost their, their priority, that role in the team. They've addressed the striker position with Haaland already there and, and on the contract Sam mentioned and Mahmouche making a really strong impact so far. I see that impact getting stronger. Those wide positions have been addressed to a certain extent in terms of Doku and, and know his form has fluctuated, but there's a brilliant player there and, and I'm sure they'll, they'll try and harness that even further. Savinho's come in and, and it's. It's only been his first season, so maybe a bit hit or miss, but the hits have. Have shown how good he is and can be. And Grealish still there as we've described. Bernardo Silva Foden. So across that front line. It does feel that it's the, the vacuum left by De Bruyne rather than other positions. Right now when you look into the midfield, you've got Rod. So that will be a massive moment for the club. Big decision to be made on Ilkay Gundogan. I think there's a clause in his contract that gets activated on performance related appearance factors and so let's see if, if that happens or whether a decision's made to. To call it quits this summer. Obviously Kovacic of a similar age bracket in that area of the pitch. They've never used Mathias Nunes there, which was his position before coming to City. He seems to have been played more as a. A fullback and then in defense. They've got, they've got decisions to make. So left back has never been addressed with a left back until now. Those that have occupied the space in terms of Gvardiol Nathan Ake have done really well, but they're not sort of traditional in that position. So they've been linked very heavily with Cambiasso. That was in January. A lot of reports around him. I think Pep Guardiola really likes him and that's, that's why there is some interest there. The. I think the price that was being quoted by Juventus was too high. Things have changed there. Thiago Motta being sacked and you know, will. Will City revisit that? I think it's a bit premature to say, but certainly there's some interest in a player like that. So the fullback areas, what's going to happen around Kyle Walker? Does he come back? Reintegrate, does he leave? Certainly is of an age where City need to be thinking carefully about that position. John Stones, his injury problems. We know how good he's when he plays, but he doesn't play as much as anybody would like. There's contract dilemmas all across the squad. Not dilemmas sor, but there's expiries coming up like on a massive game.
- [45:05]
Bruno Fernandes
There's a lot of players in the two year bracket where it's like their deals up in two years by the way, like how's that going to go? I think Grealish Stones, like maybe Stones is even less. There's a lot of like players you wouldn't, you couldn't even make a decision on now it's like, well, okay, if John Stones is fit then yes, absolutely, you'd want it. But can you rely on him to be fair? Which is like the unfortunate truth because obviously at his best he's fantastic. Yeah, there's a lot of players in.
- [45:28]
David Ornstein
That camp and, and so therefore with, you know, Husnov and, and Vita Rice, they. They've already started work, but they were players they kind of truthfully wanted for the summer or they were on the lists for the summer, they accelerated them for January. And so these are sort of part succession plans, part let's see if they can impact in the second half of this season and that work continues. What's going to happen with Edison? So last summer seemed there was a strong possibility he'd go to Saudi Arabia. It didn't happen in the end. Does that get revisited? If it does, what does City do on the goalkeeping position? Is a massive pillar of their team. Really is. So yeah, I haven't given you loads of names. Bit of Cambiasso, bit of. We've talked about the sort of Gibbs White and Vert's possibilities, but I just think these are conversations that are really going to ramp up now and I don't know the answers to them. But that's why Hugo Viana is now in Manchester on the ground day to day and. And those three amigos of Himself, Pep Guardiola and. And Cheeky Baguiristan, supported by many others at City who have shown themselves to be a top recruitment and sporting operation, are going to have to earn their corn.
- [46:36]
Ayo Akinwale
Okay. I was going to ask you if we, Sam, if we knew where he might end up from now on, but it doesn't feel like there's many whispers in that respect. So I actually want to Swiss this around a little bit because earlier on we, we ran a poll for the readers on the most influential midfielder of the era and Steven Gerrard comes up top of that at 28%, Roy Keane 17%, Kevin De Bruyne 14%. He comes in third very quickly. At the two of you, who do you think has been the most influential midfielder of your Premier League era? I'll start with you, Sam.
- [47:12]
Bruno Fernandes
All right, first of all, I'm not surprised to see a Liverpool player winning a poll. That's just. This is normal, isn't it? I'm fine. I've no, I've no complaints with that. It's just. It just is what it is. The thing is with Gerrard, I get it, and like Gerard had that extra explosiveness, you know what I mean? I feel like he could really dominate a game and dictate a game and he could, you know, all areas of the pitch, he could get it going. But it's like never won the Premier League with Liverpool. But it is like, if you're talking about influence, I would argue that Gerrard's the greatest midfielder. But it's like I'd also kind of think, well, there is that. I also don't want to be kind of recency biased on the fact that I'm obviously, you know, I've seen like basically every game De Bruyne has played for certain. But it's like in terms of that influence is there. But also it was there for Roy Keane and Keane was a fantastic midfielder, but then De Bruyne has got the extra in attack, so.
- [47:54]
Ayo Akinwale
Okay, okay.
- [47:56]
Bruno Fernandes
It's a hard one. Of course it's a hard one. I love Vieira. Like Vieira.
- [48:00]
Ayo Akinwale
Yeah, yeah. Torres in there as well. I forget what Torre did for Torre.
- [48:04]
Bruno Fernandes
Is arguably better but. And like influence. The influence was there in, you know, that's why he's got a statue. I've got a rush. Who's the one?
- [48:11]
Ayo Akinwale
Who's the one?
- [48:12]
Bruno Fernandes
Oh, I'm just gonna say De Bruyne just to shut up. De Bruyne.
- [48:14]
Ayo Akinwale
Come on, David.
- [48:16]
David Ornstein
One by one, you've taken all of the names off of my list. So thank you very much. I'm gonna divert it a little bit because I think De Bruyne is more like almost like a Dennis Bergkamp. He, he's a kind of attacking midfielder going on forward, number 10, creative genius. And so I'm going to take him out of midfield and say he's off limits. I love the, the defensive midfielders. I think they're so important and slightly underrated. I was going to say Keane because like a staple of the years when I was growing up watching the Premier League. Sam's nicked that. So I really, really like the options of Makalelli at Chelsea.
- [48:58]
Ayo Akinwale
Yes.
- [48:59]
David Ornstein
And for France too. Every time the ball dropped at the edge of the box and everybody was panicking, he just put his foot on it and like trapped it and then rolled it out and started counterattacks for Chelsea. And I remember around that time saying like everyone should be most desperate for a Makalele. That is the one. He was just faultless. He was, he was a metronome. He. He was up and down. So reliable. If there were to be one other of the. The whole Premier League time that just sort of became iconic. I, I like when people say in the years later plays like him and, and Sam said it with, with Gerard for example. Lampard the same or plays the that person role. And so maybe Scholes, he did things that will just transcend generations. If people bother watching back Makalee or Scholes, I'm gonna go for Scholes because attackers are always a bit more entry.
- [49:53]
Bruno Fernandes
Angola Kante by the way.
- [49:54]
Ayo Akinwale
Kante as well. You said Makelele. I fought Kante immediately.
- [49:58]
David Ornstein
Yeah, yeah, spot on.
- [49:58]
Bruno Fernandes
But I think he's more, he's more in that streets won't forget bracket and he. I think it's a bit harsh. It's a bit harsh because he's got.
- [50:04]
Ayo Akinwale
The sample size in the Premier League. Yeah, I guess so.
- [50:06]
Bruno Fernandes
But like I say that, that this recent last 10 year era, like nobody from that is getting into this conversation apart from like De Bruyne and probably Salah.
- [50:13]
Ayo Akinwale
I want to say Yaritore for me because he was such a hybrid of a player defensively attacking guys. We've just never seen anything like that in that everything. Never seen a player like that in the Premier League. So I'm gonna go Yaya Tory for sure. Well, let's end it there because we could be.
- [50:30]
David Ornstein
Send him a birthday cake.
- [50:31]
Ayo Akinwale
Yeah, good one, David. All right gents, let's end it there. David, Sam, appreciate your time and also Tom as well for joining us. A bit earlier. That's it for now. We are back tomorrow.
- [50:43]
David Ornstein
You've been listening to the F Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroot and Jay Beal. The executive producer was Aidy Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
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