How far can Pochettino take the USA?

Summary

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The Athletic FC Podcast

Episode: How far can Pochettino take the USA?
Date: June 20, 2026
Hosts: Ian Irving, Liam Toomey, Liam Tharm
Contributors: Henry Buschel, James Horncastle

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the U.S. Men's National Team (USMNT) at the 2026 World Cup, examining their progression to the knockout stages under Mauricio Pochettino—even in the absence of Christian Pulisic. The panel assesses how far this side can go, what Pochettino has changed, and what this run means for soccer in the USA. The episode also covers Brazil's improved performance, Scotland's struggles, and significant results from around the tournament, with analysis, stats, and tactical insight.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. USMNT’s Rising Fortunes Under Pochettino

(02:34–17:59)

• Pulisic Absent, Team Dominant:
  The USA defeated Australia 2–0 in Seattle without their talisman Christian Pulisic and “toyed with Australia at times” due to the depth and quality of the squad.

  • Henry Buschel (04:09):
    “It just didn’t matter because the US had six, seven, maybe eight players who were better than anybody on the field for Australia.”

• First Time Since 1930:
  USA’s first two wins at a World Cup since 1930 have led to growing optimism, with some pundits and fans dreaming of a semifinal or even final appearance.

  • Ian Irving (05:33):
    “The question of can the USA win the World Cup is not as wild as it maybe seemed a couple of weeks ago.”

• Where is the Ceiling?
  Liam Toomey brings perspective, suggesting the US could reach a quarterfinal “if the bracket breaks right” but isn’t quite ready to call them title favorites:

  • Liam Toomey (06:11):
    “It would be pretty much unprecedented in the entire history of the World Cup for a team of the United States’ quality to actually go and win it.”

• Squad Depth & Tactical Adaptation:
  USA impresses even without Pulisic, thanks to the flexibility of players like Folarin Balogun (critical in attack, including “perfected the art of the irresistible cutback”), and a strong bench—e.g., Gio Reyna making impact off the bench (08:50).

  • Liam Tharm (07:33):
    “There wasn’t a big Christian Pulisic-shaped hole in the attack, which is a big compliment.”

• Momentum & Fan Engagement:
  Soccer’s status in the US is under the microscope—with rising TV ratings and the sport now ranked as the third favorite in the country, surpassing baseball. A successful tournament could be a “punctuation point” in its story.

  • Liam Toomey (10:39):
    “Major tournaments, these meaningful games happening on your soil, have a different level of impact.”

• Development Pathways & Systemic Challenges:
  The state of US player development—collegiate vs. academy systems—and the cultural challenges slowing footballing growth are discussed.

  • Liam Tharm (12:05):
    “If you don’t grow up with the ball at your feet and only start at age 10–12, you’re just a few years behind.”

2. Mauricio Pochettino’s Impact

(13:08–15:24)

• Team Spirit and Tactics:
  Pochettino’s man-management and emphasis on positive energy are praised as key to the USA’s “coming together” at the ideal moment.

  • Liam Toomey (13:31):
    “At club level, that’s always been one of Pochettino’s big strengths … he knows how to create a good environment.”

• High-Pressing Identity:
  The US team is successfully deploying a high-pressing 3-4-3, reminiscent of Pochettino’s Spurs sides, focusing on energy and directness.

  • Liam Tharm (15:08):
    “It’s a simpler way to press at international level where you’ve got less time to coach a kind of complex pressing structure.”

3. How Far Can USA Go?

(16:26–18:15)

• Predictions:
  Both Liams agree: Quarterfinal (“last eight”) is a realistic target; semifinal would be incredible. Their path is mapped out, but they haven’t won a knockout match since 2002.

  • Liam Toomey (16:35):
    “No, I think last eight is probably a realistic ambition for them. I mean, semifinal would be an incredible achievement.”

• Tournament Logistics:
  Potential home advantage by staying on the West Coast is noted as a subtle but important factor.

  • Liam Toomey (17:46):
    “Staying on the West Coast is good for them as well—big home advantage.”

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4. Group C Recap: Scotland, Morocco, and Brazil

(20:39–32:23)

Scotland’s Stumble

• Lost 1–0 to Morocco; now vulnerable in the group and lacking a creative hub with Billy Gilmour’s absence. Pressure and fan culture can be a double-edged sword for Scotland.
  • Liam Toomey (21:02):
    “They had a lot of the ball … but you need someone deeper to knit it all together.”
  • Liam Tharm (23:09):
    “You want to play the game, not the occasion … they’re paving the way for future Scotland teams.”

Brazil Back to Winning Ways

• 3–0 win over Haiti, but skepticism remains among press and pundits around midfield vulnerability and fitness concerns for Neymar.

  • James Horncastle (27:36):
    “You can still get a feeling from the Brazilian press pack that they weren’t entirely satisfied ... There’s more to come from this team.”
  • Liam Toomey (30:41):
    “Against higher-level opposition they are very, very vulnerable to being outnumbered and outmaneuvered in midfield.”

• Squad Selection Questions:
  Debates over who the best center-forward is—Matheus Cunha scored twice, but fans and media still want more from Endrick and a return for Neymar.

• Knockout Stage Prospects:
  Brazil’s path is not straightforward—with potential pitfalls lying ahead.

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5. Trivia & Young Star Focus

(36:03–42:30)

• Trivia Segment:
  Hungary remains the only national team to have scored 10 goals in a single World Cup match—beating El Salvador 10–1 in 1982 (36:03–37:44).

• Star of Soccer: Kendry Paez (Ecuador/Chelsea):
  Once touted as Ecuador’s greatest ever talent, his progress has stalled amid off-pitch concerns and a crowded Chelsea youth policy.

  • Liam Toomey (38:29):
    “There’s already a sense that he’s stagnating a little bit ... if you’d gone back two years, a lot of people in Ecuador would have been expecting him to be a key starter.”
  • Liam Tharm (40:58):
    “I don’t think there could be a worse place to be sometimes for certain players than at Chelsea … From a player perspective, it’s not always the most optimal.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Irrational confidence can be useful.”
  —Liam Toomey (06:02), capturing the American World Cup mood

• “They perfected the art of the irresistible cutback for an opposition defender.”
  —Liam Tharm (08:13), on the USMNT’s knack for forcing own goals

• “It’s easy when you’re winning, but they carried that feeling into the first game.”
  —Liam Toomey (14:15), on Pochettino’s “positive energy”

• “Americans love a winner.”
  —Liam Toomey (11:24), on why a US run would matter

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:34] — Opening, U.S. win over Australia, no Pulisic
• [04:09] — Henry Buschel on USMNT performance
• [06:02] — Can the USA win the World Cup? Pundit roundtable
• [07:33] — Balogun and adapting without Pulisic
• [08:50] — Squad depth and European-based players
• [10:39] — Impact of World Cup run on U.S. soccer
• [13:08] — Pochettino’s strengths and management style
• [15:08] — Pressing style and tactical approach
• [16:26] — How far can USA go? Bracket watch
• [20:39] — Scotland vs. Morocco recap
• [21:02] — Scotland's creative shortcomings
• [23:09] — Tournament pressure on Scotland
• [25:11] — Brazil vs. Haiti analysis, forward dilemma
• [27:36] — James Horncastle’s report from Brazil camp
• [30:41] — Brazil's midfield concerns
• [36:03] — World Cup record goal trivia
• [38:29] — Kendry Paez: Ecuador's fading starlet

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Tone and Style

• Informal and energetic, with light-hearted banter (the "two Liams" thread)
• Analytical, mixing footballing jargon with clear explanations
• Realistic, regularly checking optimism with data/historical perspective
• Full of insider references to tactics pieces and in-depth analysis ("I’ve done a tactics piece on this if people want to see it visualized…")

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Conclusion

This episode offers a thorough examination of the USMNT’s World Cup run, featuring thoughtful debates on their chances, Pochettino’s impact, and wider implications for soccer in America. It also does not ignore the global context—giving Brazil’s inconsistent start and Scotland's woes due consideration. Throughout, listeners get a sense of a tournament alive with potential, surprises, and evolving narratives.

Next up: Group stage drama continues, with Spain, Germany, and others looking to state their case for the knockout rounds.

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Transcript

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[Ian Irving]

the Athletic FC. Hello and welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ian Irving. The USA progressed to the knockouts even without Christian Pulisic. So just how far can Mauricio Pochettino take them? And elsewhere, there was a win for Brazil and a defeat for Scotland. So here in the studio today then, we've got the two Liams back. The Athletics, Liam Toomey and Liam Tharm. I know the other day you went for surnames, but I thought we'd try middle names today maybe. So Liam Toomey, what's the name of the.

[Producer Mike]

Find out.

[Liam Toomey]

We've got the same middle name.

[Liam Tharm]

What's your middle name?

[Liam Toomey]

John David. Okay, close.

[Ian Irving]

David. Very close. Similar genre.

[Liam Toomey]

Yeah, yeah, similar. Yeah. Anglicized.

[Liam Tharm]

Yeah, like a Brazilian player or something. A John David or something. One of like the latam names.

[Ian Irving]

I mean, there's a Canadian striker. That's pretty close.

[Liam Tharm]

Well, yeah, that's true.

[Liam Toomey]

Don't they do, like, be Liam Al for big Liam and Liamino? Yeah, for little Liam.

[Ian Irving]

That would work in the Brazilian sense.

[Liam Toomey]

It could do, but it implies that one of us bigger than.

[Ian Irving]

I don't really want to make that decision either.

[Liam Toomey]

So maybe.

[Ian Irving]

Yeah, we'll just do Liam Toomey and Liam Tham. I'll just look at you when I want to ask you a question. Okay, well established that anyway, so that's good. Day 9 Then Scotland lose 1 nil to Morocco. Brazil beat Haiti 3 nil. Paraguay overcome Turkey 1 nil, despite having Miguel Almiron sent off for covering his mouth. So there's the start of that genre as well. And Haiti and Turkey of course, eliminated from the competition after their results too. But let's start with the USMNT, who dominated in their 2 nil win over Australia in Seattle for the Athletic was Henry Bushel.

[Henry Buschel]

So much of the buildup to this game centered around Christian Pulisic. Will he play? Won't he play? How's his caf doing? What might the US do if he can't play? And then we got here to Lumen field and the stadium filled with passion, with red, white and blue. And 11 players took to the field and Christian Pulisic was not one of them. And it just didn't matter because the US had six, seven, maybe eight players who were better than anybody on the field for Australia. They were the six, seven or eight best players on the pitch on Friday. And they toyed with Australia at times and they weren't head and shoulders above them. They weren't dominant like they were against Paraguay, but they were good enough to be clearly better. They were deserving winners. And now people are dreaming just like they were after the game against Paraguay. But now with even more evidence, we're talking about can this team not just win a knockout game, but it's can they get to the quarterfinals, can they get to the semifinals? Heck, can they win the World Cup? And the answer, of course to the question of can they? Is yes. Will they? Probably not. Still, we're still a very long way away from that. The two teams they played so far are nowhere near the level of teams they're going to have to face, probably in a round of 16, quarterfinal, etc. But this team is rolling. They're looking better than ever under Mauricio Pochicino. Finally, at the exact moment when it had to all come together, it has come together and we're seeing the best of this team right now.

[Ian Irving]

Amazing, really, after two wins, the first time the USA have won their first two matches at a World cup since 1930, that the whole country is feeling like this. And actually the question of can the USA win the World cup is not as wild as it maybe seemed a couple of weeks ago. There's Paul Tenorio's match piece on the Athletic as well, which goes with a very similar theme of people believing in what Mauricio Pochettino is doing at the moment. Two different questions though, aren't they, can they win the World cup and will they? What do you think?

[Liam Toomey]

What I would say is irrational confidence can be useful.

[Ian Irving]

Is that a confidence?

[Liam Tharm]

That's a head coach answer. Is it in a press conference?

[Ian Irving]

That's good.

[Liam Toomey]

Of course, it's not out of the realms of possibility, but it would be pretty much unprecedented in the entire history of the World cup for a team of the United States quality to actually go and win it. What we have seen in recent tournaments is teams like this, particularly when they're the host nation, yeah, Go on a bit of a run and get to a quarterfinal, maybe even get to a semi final if the bracket breaks. Right. That's probably their limit. But what we're seeing right now is the foundation for something like that to potentially happen because they, they need the momentum, they need the feel good factor, they need the United States public to engage with this team which already looks like it's happening. And I think they've done a really good job over the first two games. They were expected to win both, but they've taken care of their business in really convincing fashion without Pulisic against Australia. So they're in a strong position now to continue building and carry some real momentum into the knockouts.

[Ian Irving]

Yeah, Liam Tharman, Noel Pulisic. And to still be able to win fairly comfortably against an Australia team who'd had a pretty impressive result in their first game against Turkey. That gives confidence and there's a real joy to it all. It seems as well it comes through every time we hear from Henry that everyone seems to be enjoying this journey even though it's only two matches so far. And the fact that everything is coming together like he repeatedly keeps saying at this moment is important.

[Liam Tharm]

Yeah, there wasn't a big Christian Pulisic shaped hole in the attack, which is a big compliment you can think of. I think for any top nation. You take out their best player, they're going to struggle a bit and it's how you kind of adapt around that. I think Balogan played a really important role again and obviously sets up the opening goal. But also that kind of channel running, that kind of wide play, playing kind of a front two with with Pepe was I think not quite as effective as they would be with Pulisic there in a number 10 role. But as a good alternative, you know, worked. We do have to point out that they scored quite early again, another own goal. I think they're the first team in World cup history to have opponents score own goals in in two games in a row. That that's a good opt to one feel bad for whoever's had to code that. That's a lot of work.

[Liam Toomey]

They perfected the art of the irresistible

[Liam Tharm]

cutback for an opposition defender that left hand side. But that that also helps you want to score the first goal. Generally in team that scores first wins at an even higher rate than in kind of league football. And I think it will also be an interesting test against Turkey around the knockout rounds. If the game is nil, nil at halftime or deeper in the game, how they then find solutions where they don't have the lead to kind of sit back on.

[Ian Irving]

There is a real strength in depth to them though, isn't there? When you look at the squad, I mean there's players like Brendan Aronson, Tim Fuway are not getting many minutes and a lot of teams in this competition would need them in their first 11 and the USA MNT haven't needed them.

[Liam Toomey]

Yeah, and you saw Gio Reina I think come off the bench in the first game to score and he's pretty much reserved a late sub at the moment. I think this is the strongest squad they've ever brought to a major, major tournament, certainly a World cup.

[Ian Irving]

You know, remember 1930.

[Liam Toomey]

I mean, I think it's more than half the squad play in Europe. Okay. Which is a good metric for. Not perfect one, but a good metric for. For how strong this squad is. And they've got good top end talent. I think, particularly when you're talking about someone like Baligan. He already feels like he could have the biggest reputation boost from a tournament like this. The way he started the first two games, not just his goals, but the way he's leading the line for this team is really, really impressive. So, yeah, they're a strong team. I think they've also got one of the better coaches in the tournament in Pochettino, and that's important too. So they've got all the ingredients to make some real noise.

[Liam Tharm]

The point about players in Europe is a really important one. Obviously, one is a reflection of their quality. But two, what we've heard from kind of Pochettino and I think a lot of our US writers and colleagues here is that they didn't have all the players they needed at the right times in the camps, players were injured or it wasn't the right time. That obviously having to go transatlantic all the time to play a couple of games against sometimes low level CONCACAF opposition isn't the perfect prep. And people are saying, wait, be patient. They lost friendlies or they had their bad games and they went. It's going to come together when it needs to come together. And to their credit, we are seeing that now.

[Ian Irving]

Yeah, at the perfect time as well. It's nice when a plan comes together like this. I mean, in terms of the sport, soccer, football in the usa, it's been a question, it seems, for a long time about how well established it can be, how well established it is now. How do you see it? I mean, what do you think a run to the quarterfinals, the semifinals even could do for the sport in the usa?

[Liam Toomey]

Yeah, I think it can be a punctuation point on trends that have been happening over the last few years. I mean, one thing you have to say about the United States, there's always a lot of sport competing for attention at any one time. And soccer has had to cope with that as it's been building through mls, through Premier League clubs, touring there every single summer. I know from going to the club World cup last year with Chelsea and covering pre season there before just how many more people are tracking the Premier League as well as the domestic league over there. But major tournaments, these meaningful games happening on Your soil, I think, just have a different level of impact. And if the host nation is playing as well as the United States clearly are right now. Sorry, one of three host nations, but

[Ian Irving]

they're all doing well.

[Liam Toomey]

You know, it can definitely, definitely help. Americans love a winner. And there are already signs from the TV ratings, I believe, in the United States, that the first two games have done really well.

[James Horncastle]

Yeah.

[Ian Irving]

It is a bit of a moment. I mean, I was reading a report before we started recording from Fox Sports from back in January, where they said that a recent. Paul had said that it was now the third biggest sport in America in terms of. I think 10% of the country said that soccer was their favorite sport. And there was only now basketball and American football that was more popular than it.

[Liam Tharm]

Soft baseball.

[Ian Irving]

Yeah.

[Liam Toomey]

Wow. In that survey, America's game, once they called it.

[Ian Irving]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that shows you it's not just about what it can be, it's actually what it is.

[Liam Tharm]

Yeah. I think one of the big challenges, and I kind of see the other side of this, I cover quite a bit of athletics is kind of the development pipeline and the role that academies play and the kind of collegiate system that you get collegiate players going into mlb, NBA, NFL, into track, they're basically kind of going in at what is effectively professional level. It's what we have over here in the UK in terms of academy systems. That's their NCAA collegiate system. I don't think football quite has that same pipeline. So you do get players coming over, I think, earlier to Europe to kind of just accelerate their development, to train in the clubs that are over here because they're just at a high level. And that's hard because that's also a culture thing. You just can't be good at every single sport in the world. So I think.

[Ian Irving]

And they're not.

[Liam Tharm]

Well, they'll try to be, but I think you probably just can't. And people have also said that so many of their sports are throwing sports. Generally, it's hand sports. It's not. You know, football is very unique in a sport that's dominantly played with the feet. If you don't grow up, and I think Pochettino said this, if you don't grow up with the ball at your feet and you only start doing that kind of at age 10, age 12, you're just a few years behind in your development, and that is going to count against you. And that's not kind of anyone's fault. That's just how it's been done over there.

[Ian Irving]

You've both mentioned Pochettino. He's obviously absolutely key to this. There's an interesting article from Michael Cox before the tournament about the big name managers that are in international football and this tournament in particular. It feels like they've all been sucked that way, doesn't it? You obviously worked with Mauricio Pochettino when you were covering Chelsea. When he was there, did you see him being a natural for this sort of role?

[Liam Toomey]

Well, I think when you look at the things that are valuable in international football, yes, you have to get the tactics right and the details on the pitch, but it's just as much about building an atmosphere. You've seen Thomas Tuchel talk about this with England a lot. Get the right blend of personalities, create a positive feeling in a camp. And I think, albeit a club level, that's always been one of Pochettino's big strengths. And he did it at Chelsea as well, to be fair, in his, in his one season there. He knows how to create a good environment. He's always talking about positive energy. You know, we've written a lot about the lemons. Know how many lemons there are in the United States camp right now?

[Liam Tharm]

Syracuse or somewhere? Yeah.

[Liam Toomey]

But he's clearly managed that. You can see the way the United States are playing. Everyone's having fun. Of course, it's easy when you're winning, but they carried that feeling into the first game and that I think that really helped them start the way that they did. And he, he makes sure his teams play with energy as well and harness the energy that happens from, from major points in the matches. So I, I, it's not a surprise to me that he's proving quite well cut out for international football. Yeah.

[Ian Irving]

You mentioned the press there. And when you sort of look at Pochettino's Premier League teams, Liam Tham, I'm not doing the, Liam's very well there. I'm just not, I'm just looking at you. But when, when you look at sort of the style that he had, certainly his early days in the Premier League with Spurs and before that Southampton, there was energy, there was high pressing style as well. He brought that sort of straight away to English football. Do you see that in this USA team? Is it a similar sort of vibe that they're, that they're playing with?

[Liam Tharm]

Yeah, I think there's similar kind of principles. And they were definitely that against Australia, who were playing short and kind of let them do that. They were trying to go mountain man a lot, which makes a lot of sense because they've Got kind of speed in that front line. It's also a simpler way to press it international level where you've got less time to coach. A kind of complex pressing structure.

[Ian Irving]

Quite a crucial point, isn't it?

[Liam Tharm]

I think so. But he had big decisions to make in terms of his kind of shape, in terms of his approach. Before the tournament, people weren't sure who was going to be the goalkeeper, who the center backs are going to be, how many center backs. And he settled on the three, four, three. And I don't mean to scare as a Manchester United adjacent person and with. With chat about the 343, but it's working really, really well. Promise you it can work as a system good. And it's not inherently kind of flawed. And they were really good against Australia at basically manipulating the wing back. So. And I've done a tactics piece on this if people want to go on site and kind of see it visualized. But the simple part was the wing backs were jumping out really early to the effectively the. The US wing backs and it made space in behind for those kind of channel runs. We see it from Balogun for the goal where he spins the center back, isolates the center back out wide, gets into the box. And Weston McKenna was doing the same down the right as a midfielder. Those same darts diagonally working really well with Sergino Dest. I think that's been really, really effective. We've seen as Liam mentioned earlier about kind of the cutback down the left and the, the good moves against Paraguay when Pulisic was there and you kind of could get him on the ball and into those spaces. So it's really well balanced and a good team out wide.

[Ian Irving]

We've done a great job here of building them up. So we need to, we need to ask the question, do you think they could win it? How far do you think they. They could go?

[Liam Toomey]

No, I think last eight is probably a realistic ambition for them. I mean semi final would be incredible, an incredible achievement. What's that for this team? I would say round of 16.

[Ian Irving]

Yeah.

[Liam Toomey]

Given the way they've started this group stage, I must confess I'm not on top of how the bracket is continually evolving.

[Liam Tharm]

All right, so they're going to go to California on July 1st to play one of the third place teams. Obviously we don't know that yet. There's way more games to be played and the winner of that goes to Seattle five days later in the round of 16. The potential or the team they'll most likely play on the Same kind of side of that is the winner of group G, which is the group that features New Zealand, Iran, Belgium and Egypt who are all level on one point at the time of recording. So that could quite literally still be anyone.

[Ian Irving]

Yeah.

[Liam Tharm]

So there's a few different interesting matchups for various reasons there. And I think, I mean they haven't won what a knockout game at a World cup, men's World cup since 2002, I think. Does it go that far back? So I think kind of akin to England a few years ago on the G, Southgate was kind of the aim is just win one to start with. Kind of don't get too, too carried away going how deep that though is it? No, it's not. It's not at all interesting one to keep an eye on.

[Liam Toomey]

Well, and staying on the west coast is, is good for them as well.

[Kat and Nat]

Yeah.

[Liam Toomey]

Because we all know how big America is as a country and having to travel around it in between games is not ideal.

[Ian Irving]

So I'm staying in America because, you know, if you don't top your group, there's a good chance you end up anywhere, you know.

[Liam Toomey]

Yeah.

[Ian Irving]

And I think, well, just Canada or Mexico, not anywhere.

[Liam Toomey]

But yeah, if they get to play in Seattle again as well. We know Seattle's a soccer mad city and that's a big home advantage for them.

[Ian Irving]

Yep, definitely something to keep an eye on.

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[Producer Mike]

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[Ian Irving]

Right, moving in then to Group C. We'll hear from James Horncastle shortly, who was at Brazil's win in Philadelphia. But Scotland of course, no longer top of group C. Beaten 1 nil by Morocco. The Bayern Munich bound is male side Bari with his second goal of the tournament and after 70 seconds as well, Liam Toomey, their earliest ever winning goal in World cup history.

[Liam Toomey]

Wow, that's a good start. Yeah, a poor, poor Grant Hanley. You make one mistake in the first two minutes of the game, not stepping up quite as quickly as you need to, and it was punished brilliantly. Sabari's now got two goals in this tournament and they're two of the best finishes I think that anyone's produced. I, I was quite disappointed watching the rest of this game in the way that a, that Morocco kind of approached it because I felt they were maybe slightly too cautious. First 20 minutes they could have put Scotland away, but beyond that, I felt that they, they sank into their shell a bit too much. And then it was also frustrating because you just saw how limited Scotland were in those circumstances. I think they, they had a lot of the ball. They were allowed to have a lot of the ball. I, I couldn't help watching it, thinking, I really wish Billy Gilmour was here. Yeah, because they have guys in Midfield like John McGinn and Scott McTominay who I like, who are powerful runners and can arrive in the box, but you need someone deeper to knit it all together and give people the ball in the right positions. And the fact that he's not there, they don't have anyone else with that profile. So they really struggled for any kind of cutting edge for the rest of the game.

[Ian Irving]

Some of the stories of the Scotland fans over in America and Chicago in particular have been absolutely fantastic. I've been laughing a lot at some of the tales that I've been hearing. But you worry now, don't you, that those fans might not be over in the USA that much longer because this result now leaves them vulnerable with Brazil to face next.

[Liam Tharm]

Yeah, there definitely feels like there's some pressure. I think there's always a lot of intensity around Scotland playing. I don't know if it always kind of helps them where, I mean, so many fans travel. They're so kind of intense and supportive. But I remember going back to the last Euros when they played Germany in the first game, I think it was Andy Robertson, I can't remember exactly who it was who celebrated them winning a goal kick about 10 minutes in and kind of shielding a ball out. And I kind of wonder at times if that is just a bit of a limiting factor that kind of makes it really psychologically quite intense and difficult to play with. I remember Gareth Southgate talking about England games kind of being was, you know, they're not just football matches, they're social events that, you know as a team and as a coaching staff, whatever.

[Ian Irving]

He's right.

[Liam Tharm]

Yeah. You want to play the game, not the occasion. Right. I think you can risk making it too big of a thing. And it's hard because this isn't a group that have got a huge amount of major tournament experience. They are pretty much paving the way for you'd hope future Scotland teams to come on and play and come on and build. You're not going to get it all right kind of at your first crack. And there's hoping that they kind of learned things from a couple of years ago in the Euros, but I'm not sure they've got match winners at both ends of the pitch. Some really good players in kind of the central part. They've got probably two really top level left backs, which is probably quite irritating for Steve club, but you go, you'd love to have that quality elsewhere. And then you've got, you know, two really good number tens. But I mean McGinn and McTominay, the top scorers under him, they've not got that top class number nine. I don't think they've got kind of a world class goalkeeper either. And that can show in a tournament.

[Liam Toomey]

Yeah.

[Ian Irving]

Okay. I mean, another stat that basically is a bit of a warning sign, I suppose ahead of the Brazil game is that Scotland have now lost 17 of their last 19 matches against nations who were ranked at the time in the top six of the FIFA world rankings, losing nine of the last 10. So that doesn't bode well, does it?

[Liam Tharm]

No, it doesn't. I mean, you just have to change that going into a knockout round, aren't you? It can be a one off game. So they've got got a very good chance.

[Ian Irving]

They can still go through, can't they? Yeah, probably will. Third place teams that will go through and it's who's got the most points across all the groups. So three points might be enough even. Yeah.

[Liam Tharm]

And I don't think this Brazil team are perfect. Scotland could well set up and cause them some real problems. I think. Think if anything was probably more of a challenge against Haiti where they had to dominate the game looked kind of shaky. I think they got outshot in the game. I know they were leading from for most of it, but didn't look kind of completely comfortable. They can revert to that. Back three, back five and they might cause Brazil some problems.

[James Horncastle]

Yeah.

[Ian Irving]

Okay. I mean Scotland are actually currently top of the pile in terms of the third place teams at the moment. The athletic simulator model has given them a 60% chance of progression to the last 32 as things stand. So maybe all is not lost just yet. Let's move on to Brazil then. A bit more like it from Carlo Ancelotti's boys after the Morocco game. I mean they did recover Liam Toomey in that match, but to see them playing with a bit more style, a bit more freedom, scoring three goals, that. That was more like it, wasn't it?

[Liam Toomey]

Yeah, I mean it was the least that they could do against, against Haiti. And I think the way that Haiti set up probably made it easier for Brazil to show a bit more of their attacking verve. Liam Tharm can tell us a bit more about their mid block and what you thought about it.

[Liam Tharm]

Yeah, I mean they tried to be, I think, as aggressive as you can be in a mid block so you don't have the defensive line kind of too deep. But there wasn't probably enough pressure on the ball at times. There were a few moments where Raphinha got in behind in the first half, just offside very marginally. So I guess you can argue that's a perfectly executed Offside trap only just so. They were definitely bold with that. But I thought that did play into the kind of hands of Brazil with how quick some of their forwards are.

[Liam Toomey]

And a lot of Brazil's best moments seem to come from winning the ball back off Haiti in the middle third of the pitch and then quickly attacking 2, 3 passes they were in. And in those kind of situations, Vinicius Jr. Is devastating. Matthias Kuna, as you know, can be really, really clinical. So Brazil looked a lot more comfortable generally. It was not a situation in which they're realistically going to be stressed, but they took care of business. What do you think about Cunha and his role in this Brazil team?

[Ian Irving]

Yeah, I found it really intriguing that he wasn't in the start of the tournament. I expected him from what I'd seen, what I'd read, that he would be the number nine for Carlo Ancelotti coming into it. Obviously in this game he was, he scored twice. So I guess that's a sign that he could continue in that position moving forward because even with the, even with the success relatively speaking he's had at Manchester United last season, it became a left sided forward position that he, he played in majority of the the second half of the season under Michael Carrick. There were times where he'd drift, there was times where neutral. But it was Brian and Bumo who'd be used as an alternative center forward, not Matthias Kunya. He did it a couple of times, but I wouldn't have said from what I've seen that's his strongest position. When we were doing talk of the Devils previewing the World cup, we actually talked about what this tournament could do for Kunya in that role as a number nine sort of leading the, the forward line, the star studded forward line of Brazil. What it would do for his growth as a player, as an individual at the stage of his career that he's at. So I'm intrigued now to see how he goes on from this because there were two goal scorers, goals, weren't they really in that sen. They weren't, you know, spectacular long range strikes or anything like that. They were very much center forward play. So that's definitely something to keep an eye on. Not everyone was impressed though. Let's hear from James Horncastle who was there.

[James Horncastle]

Well, that was a lot more like it from Brazil against Haiti. Does it really change how we view them going forward? Are they a contender for the World Cup? I think while we saw a different side to them against an inferior opponent, Haiti are not on the same level as Morocco. You can still get a feeling from the Brazilian press pack that they weren't entirely satisfied. They're still anxious about Neymar. When's he coming back? Is he fit? Neymar didn't come to Philadelphia. Neymar hasn't played for Brazil since October 2023. But he's an obsession, as is Endgame. Endrick didn't start and even though Matthias Kunha scored twice, when Matthias Cunha took the podium after the game, he was asked, you know, can you play with Endrick, you know, when are we going to see more of Endrick? So that is certainly the feeling amongst the, the Brazil pack that there's more to come from this team. And, you know, I would say that whilst today was encouraging, we still need to, to be convinced Brazil are on the same level as some of the other favorites for this competition.

[Ian Irving]

The change from Morocco, Liam Tham to the game last night, when, when you look at the way Brazil set up, it was pretty similar by all accounts. And it was mainly just Igor Thiago out and Matthias Kunya in. Because when I saw the team sheet, I wondered how they might look to help some of the issues they had with Casemiro and Bruno Guimaraes in the first half against Morocco in particular, and even the center for. I mean, they've got so much talent in these attacking positions that the, the list of forwards in their squad is a joke really. And clearly the journalists feel that too, by asking about players who haven't played. Basically.

[Liam Tharm]

Yeah, I think the sands are pretty high. Right. For what is a good or a top level Brazilian player, and especially kind of a forward one. It's tricky with Igor Thiago because he's probably quite atypical as a Brazilian kind of striker goes, but he's, he's. I mean, he's pound for pound, I think the best Brazilian striker they've had in terms of their kind of league season this year. Obviously a very physical profile, you know, great at running into kind of open space in transitions and that's probably suited to a team against, playing against a team like Morocco, who physical, bigger center backs. Sure, they're playing a back five here, but you probably want someone that's technical in Cunha that can get on the ball, can rotate wide and works well with someone like Vinicius or Rafinha running in behind, which we saw loads kind of similar to England really, in terms of the Kane and Gordon slash, Madwaeke kind of profiles. So there's lots of different ways they can kind of coordinate it. And I think that's always kind of been Ancelotti's thing, is that he'll try to base his systems around kind of the star players rather than the other way around. And that's for better or for worse. And I think the real test of that will really come once we get to the knockouts and we see how they fare against kind of real kind of top level teams. But there are holes you can pick in that team. We saw it with Morocco kind of and when they won the ball back in counter attacks on match, they won. So yeah. Interesting to see how this progresses really.

[Ian Irving]

I said it yesterday, Liam Toomey, but I still feel the same. You can of still trying to get a gauge on how good this Brazil team actually is.

[Liam Toomey]

Yeah. And. And it comes back to the midfield for me. I think they've got, I think they've got strong defensive personnel. This is maybe a weaker fullback crop than we used to seeing from Brazil, but their center backs are solid, very good goalkeeper. You just think that against higher level opposition they are very, very vulnerable to being outnumbered and outmaneuvered in midfield and the fact that Morocco were able to do that. I know Morocco have some very talented midfield players but. But there's a higher standard coming for Brazil if they, if they are going to get to where they want to get to in this tournament Casemiro, I mean you watched him a lot at United be overwhelmed in Premier League games by numbers, by intensity certainly at this stage of his career. It's a lot to ask of him. And I think Bruno Gimmereich a good player but again, they don't necessarily have the numbers or the legs to cover that area of the pitch. And then against teams that may be sitting deeper, which Haiti didn't really do. I also feel that there's a longer term problem with Brazil where they, they don't have a really incisive midfield passer. They're still looking to Lucas Pakata who's a talented player, but is maybe not the caliber of player that Brazil have traditionally had to call upon in that role and certainly that many of their World cup rivals can call upon.

[Liam Tharm]

They're not going to have an easy knockout kind of bracket either. I don't think so. Whether they finish as winners or runner up, this is providing they come in the top play the winner or the runner up in group F which is Sweden, Japan, Netherlands and Tunisia's group. So I think quite a few banana skins in there. While they'd probably say they're a better squad overall or a higher kind of ranking than all those teams. I think they're quite stubborn opponents in very different ways, so won't be a cakewalk for them either.

[Ian Irving]

No. Okay, definitely something to keep an eye on. Like we've said throughout this lots of different narratives throughout this tournament. Remember, you can keep across all the fallout from the results. If you want to know more about what we've been talking about or the other games, all the action is reviewed on the Athletic app and throughout the tournament on the app. It's free for you all to read as well, so go and have a look at that.

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[Ian Irving]

Okay, quiz time. And you can get involved in this. Lots of you have been doing it on our YouTube channel. So go and have a look at that if you want to get involved. It's our do you daily trivia quiz. It's day 10 and the question today Liam and Liam is do you know who are the only Nation to score 10 goals in a single World cup match?

[Liam Tharm]

Single World cup match.

[James Horncastle]

Right.

[Liam Tharm]

Let's this is going to probably go back decades I reckon. I don't remember happening in kind of

[Ian Irving]

recent history, so feel free to name countries.

[Liam Toomey]

Can I say Germany Slash West Germany?

[Ian Irving]

You can. It's wrong.

[Liam Tharm]

Okay, maybe Uruguay.

[Ian Irving]

Nope.

[Liam Toomey]

Netherlands?

[Ian Irving]

No.

[Liam Toomey]

France.

[Ian Irving]

Nope.

[Liam Toomey]

Take off the mate.

[Liam Tharm]

Argentina?

[Ian Irving]

No.

[Liam Toomey]

Brazil?

[Ian Irving]

No.

[Liam Tharm]

Obviously the only big story I can remember in recent history is what obviously did the seven goals. Yeah, seven one. But that's not 10 goals.

[Liam Toomey]

Serbia was only six. Yeah.

[Ian Irving]

Two more teams.

[Unidentified Guest]

No.

[Liam Tharm]

England have never done it have they? We're not staring us in the face.

[Liam Toomey]

No.

[Liam Tharm]

Like Belgium or someone.

[Liam Toomey]

Portugal.

[James Horncastle]

No.

[Liam Tharm]

Are we going too big with our. As a hint, are we going too big with our countries?

[Kat and Nat]

Probably.

[Ian Irving]

In a modern sense. Yes.

[Liam Toomey]

Okay.

[Liam Tharm]

In a modern sense.

[Liam Toomey]

In a modern sense.

[Ian Irving]

Clues.

[Liam Toomey]

Yeah, Go on, please.

[Liam Tharm]

Can you give us the confederation.

[Ian Irving]

European.

[Liam Tharm]

The European.

[Liam Toomey]

Okay, sorry.

[Ian Irving]

UEFA.

[Liam Tharm]

UEFA, sorry, yeah. Does this country still exist?

[Ian Irving]

Yes.

[Liam Tharm]

I didn't have a Soviet Union thing. That was where I thought you were then going. Because you're like in the, you know, in the older sense.

[Ian Irving]

No, I mean, I could keep this going. It's great. Come on. Put you out your misery.

[Liam Tharm]

No. Producer Mike's giving us a hint which is famous player with an award. Oh, it'll be push gas then.

[Liam Toomey]

You'd have thought Hungary.

[Liam Tharm]

Yeah, correct.

[Ian Irving]

Hungary.

[Liam Toomey]

They did love a. They did love a high scoring game.

[Liam Tharm]

Who did they.

[Ian Irving]

They beat El Salvador 10:1 in 1982.

[Liam Toomey]

Wow. Oh, wow. That's like slightly beyond the tail end of Hungary's golden era as well.

[Ian Irving]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you see what I mean now about, you know, maybe not in a modern.

[Liam Tharm]

No, that's a good clue.

[Ian Irving]

So I tried to help.

[Liam Toomey]

Yeah.

[Ian Irving]

But that was a tough one, to be fair. But yeah, good luck to anyone else who had to go with that as well, because it was. It was difficult. Okay, Star of soccer then. That's the other regular feature that we've been doing on the show. It's Ecuador's Kendry Paez. Who's the player that we're going to talk about today. Chelsea's Kendrick Paez as well. Not had the impact on this tournament yet that many expected. Obviously not played a minute yet for Chelsea either. What do we need to know about him and how likely do you think it is that he will still have an impact on this tournament?

[Liam Toomey]

Well, he's an extremely talented attacking midfielder, left footed, very creative, great passing range and someone who has been looked to in Ecuador since his early to mid teen years as the future of Ecuadorian football. Potentially the greatest talent they've produced.

[Ian Irving]

And that's high praise.

[Liam Toomey]

Yeah. That's what persuaded Chelsea to move for him when they did. I think they signed him pretty much two years ahead of time to ahead of several other elite European clubs, I believe. And he stayed at Independiente del Valle for. For a while, but by the time he reached his 18th birthday, which would have been time for him to come over and be in contention to be a Chelsea player, it was already clear that his path was not necessarily going according to plan. You know, there was a high profile story in America after the Copa America that he'd been led into. Well, he, he'd accompanied some older Ecuadorian teammates into a strip club when he was obviously underage to be in any kind of venue like that. And there have been stories here and there during his brief time on loan at Strasbourg of maybe him liking to party a bit too much and not being the most focused. So it's not going great for him. He's currently on loan at River Plate. There have been suggestions that that may be cut short too, and if it is, Chelsea would find another temporary home for him. But there's already a sense that he's stagnating a little bit. And I think, you know, if you'd gone back two years, I think a lot of people in Ecuador would have been expecting him to be a key starter for this team and the creative hub, really in front of Moises Caicedo. But that has not, not unfortunately proven to be the case. He's still got a hell of a lot of talent and, and if he comes on, there's a chance that he could do something. But unfortunately it doesn't seem like he's on the path to fulfilling his potential right now.

[Ian Irving]

No. So still a future at Chelsea are unlikely, do you think?

[Liam Toomey]

Not as things are currently going. Not only because of his, his, his trajectory, but also you look at left footed attacking players that they've signed in recent years. Estevao is now front and center of Chelsea's planning. Giovanni Cuenda is, is summer, although he's a bit more of a winger. It's never going to get less crowded. Chelsea.

[Liam Tharm]

I don't think there could be a worse place to be sometimes for certain players than at Chelsea. I understand their policy of signing so many young players.

[Ian Irving]

Big statement.

[Liam Tharm]

No, no. Because a lot of them will need patience, will need time. Even someone like Cole Palmer who kind of, you know, go back a year, a season ago and if you just said to Mo he's going to kind of stagnate a bit or have injury issues. It might not even be kind of like tactical, technical problems, just physically. Players pick up injuries or take time to kind of develop their robustness. I can see why the club do it. It works for the club because you can just keep kind of churning through players. It's probably quite expensive and a bit harder to do and means your scouts are working over time. But I think from a player perspective, it's not always the most optimal. You want a bit more patience. You think about someone like Harry Kane, who went through kind of three, four loan spells, you can kind of go through the whole England team now. The players that either came through the EFL or had loans as well, that, yeah, players probably aren't going to peak at 22, 23. I think the best clubs, and it's not always easy to do, can be a bit more patient with their defensive development.

[Ian Irving]

Okay, do you think that's fair?

[Liam Toomey]

Yeah, well, I think there are challenges to trying to come through at Chelsea and you can, you can certainly make the case that they have stockpiled in certain positions, certain profiles of players. I think left footed, creative midfielders is certainly one of those. Or create midfielders, slash wingers. But Kendrick Pais isn't even in that conversation at the moment. He's a long way away. The disappointment maybe in Ecuador and I guess at Chelsea as well, is that there hasn't been a lot of forward progress in the last two years. So he could still get there. Time is still on his side. He's still incredibly young, but yeah, he's got to get his career moving in the right direction again.

[Ian Irving]

Okay, well, let's see first of all, if he can make an impact and get into the team for a Curacao game in Kansas because obviously they need to bounce back. Ecuador after defeat to the Ivory coast in their first game. Obviously that's one of the matches taking place over the weekend. There's lots of them the next couple of days. There's no show tomorrow on the Athletic fc. Emma's back here on Monday. But what have you got your eyes on? Because there's some good games, actually.

[Liam Tharm]

Yeah, a couple good ones this evening, obviously. UK time, Netherlands, Sweden. Should be fun. Germany, Ivory coast as well.

[Ian Irving]

Germany, Ivory coast looks great.

[Liam Tharm]

I mean, just a good mix of like talented players, I think contrasting kind of styles. And what's been great so far this tournament is that the big players have stepped up and that I think always makes it especially a group stage, even better. There were definitely concerns that this would be boring because you could just get through in third place and people would be like, you know, just kind of

[Ian Irving]

Golden Boot names are something ridiculous, aren't they already?

[Liam Tharm]

It's a good chase for this. It's a really good chase.

[Ian Irving]

You're playing World cup fantasy football. You're doing all right, I imagine, no matter who you've picked so far.

[Liam Toomey]

Captain Messi in match day one.

[Ian Irving]

So very nice work.

[Liam Toomey]

I'm happy.

[Ian Irving]

Ali Toomey, Duffer cap to that.

[Liam Tharm]

The other slightly rogue shout on Sunday. And this will Be very early morning kind of UK time, New Zealand up against Egypt.

[Ian Irving]

I didn't expect you to pick that up.

[Liam Tharm]

Well, I mean, so, I mean there were some great compilations of Chris Wood going around this week of his kind of his performance. Really great kind of hold up man play great partner partnership with Elijah just there and which is what you want if it's a kind of smaller nation. Obviously the only oceanic confederation team because Australia play in, in Asia for qualification purposes. So they've, they've earned their spot and just fun to see them, you know, playing such quite a direct approach at times. But it works because they've got Chris Wood up top.

[Liam Toomey]

To me, to me, Germany, Ivory coast is like the quintessential World Cup.

[Ian Irving]

I agree.

[Liam Toomey]

Match you two strong teams from different confederations. And it's also another chance to see Jandi Amande, who I think was really, really good in their opener against Ecuador and could be. I mean he's already got a pretty big profile in the transfer market summer. But it could, it could if he really does something against Germany and lights up this tournament.

[Ian Irving]

So he might reach double figures for the clubs linked to him because we're already going quite a few. Spain, Saudi Arabia as well. Just because of the way the Spanish started the tournament. Feels like a really important game already for them.

[Liam Tharm]

Yeah, they need to bounce back 100%. I hope de La Fuente is a bit more kind of ambitious in his squad selection. Left out Olmo, left out Yamal. I think last time you think you've got to go for it a bit more now because. And if they finish second, it can change their whole kind of knockout bracket again, which obviously we don't know what that looks like yet. But you don't want to end up kind of having to play better teams and being kind of drawn on the wrong side. And of course Saudi Arabia were a big banana skin 4 years ago when they played Argentina.

[Ian Irving]

So they've got still Uruguay to face in the group as well.

[Liam Tharm]

It's not easy. A group on paper, which didn't look too hard as well. And this is the thing, you can never predict who's going to slip up or have problems, but you know, inevitably, especially in a team, a tournament, sorry, of 48 teams, someone's going to have a bad game or two and we've seen that already.

[Liam Toomey]

You just hope that Lamina MAU is ready to go go as well because

[Ian Irving]

we saw huge for him on it.

[Liam Toomey]

Yeah, well, we saw the Euros two years ago. Just what he can do on a big stage. Like this.

[Ian Irving]

So for him, to Nico Williams as well, to be fair.

[Liam Toomey]

Yeah, yeah. I just think for, for those guys, they added a new dimension to that Spain team two years ago and for them to be able to show what they can do at a World Cup, I think would benefit the whole tournament.

[Ian Irving]

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, brilliant. Lots to look forward to then. I feel like I've said that all the way through this podcast because it's really, really becoming a very, very exciting and interesting tournament in so many different ways. That's it from us for today, Liam. And Liam, thank you so much. Thank you to Henry and James as well for sending your reports. In a reminder to you all that the athletics World cup coverage is free on the app throughout this tournament. So don't miss out on that. Of course you can watch the show on YouTube. You can listen to us wherever you get your podcasts as well. And don't forget to subscribe to the YouTube channel. I won't mention the number, but we are edging ever closer to a very big number which would be lovely to hit hit throughout this tournament. So go and have a look at that. Emma is back here on Monday, but for the minute, thanks for your company and we'll see you on the next one. Take care.

[Unidentified Guest]

Bye.

[Liam Tharm]

Bye.

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