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- [00:00]
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- [01:10]
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- [01:29]
Ayo Akimwaleere
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimwaleere. It's a good time to be a Crystal palace fan, isn't it? FA cup winners in Europe, they're on an 18 game unbeaten run. So what is the secret to their success? Well, to tell us, we've got our tifo double pivot, we've got John McKenzie, we've also got Reuben Pinder as well. Oh gents, this is a really good one. I've wanted to talk about palace for a while actually. Ruben, you were there for the match against Liverpool. What a result and what feelings came out of you watching that.
- [02:16]
Reuben Pinder
If there are words to describe them. Yeah, I put that winning goal in maybe the top three Selhurst park moments post promotion alongside mate's late winner against Leicester, which turned our fortunes around during Roy Hodge reign. And of course the Crystambul 3 3. It's right up there with those. And yeah, it was very special. People were leaving early, stopped to watch the long throw go in and I think they were Glad that they turned around for it. And yeah, it was. It was one of those games where just beforehand there was a sense among the fan base that palace could absolutely get a result against a Liverpool team who were of course also unbeaten until then, but did look fragile at the back. And there was a confidence similarly going into the FA cup final last season that Glasner has instilled in this squad and that's emanated to the fan base that while palace are not necessarily the best team in the country, they can beat anyone on their day. And that is partly down to the style of football they play and the intensity that they show.
- [03:18]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah, we'll definitely go more into that a little later on. John, what stood out for you from a Palace perspective? Because it was a really good win over Liverpool.
- [03:25]
John McKenzie
Yeah, I think the things that stand out in every palace game really and that I guess attests to the consistency of the approach that palace have. The beauty of playing in the way that they do is it's almost like a one size fits all tactical approach which means that you can then breed familiarity. You can then get the players absolutely convinced of what they are doing in every moment. And that's one of the biggest aspects of a coach's job to give the players the certainty of how they should act in every moment. But the other thing that always stands out to me with palace is in their mid block they're very active. So again organization is key for that. But it's always players stepping in to challenges when the ball reaches certain areas. So that often the danger of playing in a mid block is that you can be too passive and teams can just slowly chip you away and force you back and back and back. But with palace it is always players stepping up from midfield to engage with ball carriers from the opposition from deep and then centre backs stepping into the spaces that open out, following players into the spaces between the lines and making it very hard for opponents to actually build through them. That gives them the foundation then to be able to play the kind of more direct football that they want to play. So they're happy for opponents to have the ball. They know that they can stop those opponents from causing them problems. And then when they win the ball back in those mid block situations, they know exactly what to do to get the ball into dangerous areas and score. And they were doing it over and over again against Liverpool. So I think that's it for me. It's the consistency of the approach which allows you to get the benefits of doing the same things over and over and over again with often the same players. So you get that familiarity.
- [04:59]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah, I mean it's been great to see the evolution palace this time last season one only won one match in their first nine league matches. And just before we move on quickly, Ruben, was it, was it great to see Eddie and K get a cheeky goal in right at the end? It's a well taken goal.
- [05:11]
Reuben Pinder
It was, yeah. There's been a lot of talk about his, his transfer fee. I think it was around 25 million pounds when he joined last summer. And a lot of that skepticism around it or criticism of the move I guess stemmed from the fact that he doesn't have a natural place in the starting 11 with kind of two narrow kind of wide 10s if you want supporting Mateta and obviously Mateta being so crucial to how the team plays and Katia hasn't had a lot of starting opportunities but he is obviously a different profile of player and being from South London, the fan base do what they really want him to do well. So it was really great for him to get that. That's, you know, such an important goal.
- [05:53]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Well, let's get the perspective of our palace writer Matt Woosnam on how palace have been so good so far this season.
- [06:00]
John McKenzie
Held in by Lerma. Good trajectory. Hughes. It's a absolutely phenomenal.
- [06:10]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Crystal palace have troubled the champions.
- [06:15]
Matt Woosnam
There's quite a few factors really to consider for why palace are on such an incredible run of games unbeaten. I think the first thing is Oliver Glasner is just an absolutely fantastic manager. He's really instilled this fantastic mentality and this belief that they can go toe to toe with anyone. He's really brought that sort of confidence up of the squad. He's really improved a lot of the players. They all understand his system, they work together for the collective and he's all about familiarity, consistency, that is really the key of it. And working to the strengths of the players that they have and bringing in players who will play a lot of minutes as well. He didn't want a big squad because he wants players to play and get used to each other and be confident.
- [07:02]
John McKenzie
And know what they're doing.
- [07:04]
Matt Woosnam
So those are the things really that make Palace a success.
- [07:07]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah. Reuben. Matt mentions mentality, consistency and also them playing as a collective. How much has that helped palace go on their 18 game unbeaten run? I mean it's quite great if you think about what if we look in from April or so.
- [07:22]
Reuben Pinder
Yeah, I mean the last defeat I believe was a. Was a hammering at St James's Park. We conceded five in that game and that followed a 52 defeat to Man City the previous week. Now I think context was quite important with those that the FA cup semi final was, was fast approaching. So there was a lot of focus on that. Maybe a slight, you know, there was a priority shift but once there was a draw against Arsenal that kicked off this run with Matesa coming off the bench to, to lob David Raya and. And since then, yeah, it's. There have been some very good teams in that run. You know, Villa in the cup semi, Man City in the cup final. Liverpool on the final day of last season where there was that double guard of was pretty special and since then Liverpool now and Chelsea and you know, good teams. So yeah, obviously the mentality's been a, been a really important part of that because the players have to go out believing that they can beat anyone like I said and play right until the end. We're seeing a lot of late goals this season from Liverpool especially so for palace to keep going and score. So let after a really deflating 83rd minute equalizer just shows what Matt's saying. You see it in how the players conduct themselves in, you know, the kind of social videos club put out. Maxence Lacroix developed a tradition of kind of wheeling up for a kind of Jurgen Klopp esque triple cheer after every win. And you know, captain Mark Gay kind of not allowing the summer saga to disrupt his performances or the team's performances. It shows a real sense of unity. Yeah.
- [08:56]
Ayo Akimwaleere
And very quickly you spoke about the players feeling like they can beat anyone. Do the fans feel like their team can beat anyone?
- [09:03]
Reuben Pinder
Absolutely now, yeah. Like I say, there's a sense of obstacle, optimism going into every game that wasn't there at the start of last season. You know, because Glasnan joined halfway through the season before that. So the start of last season there was some teething issues with like, you know, John mentioned the importance of a consistent 11, knowing their jobs, developing chemistry between players. The back three and the early stages of last season was chopped and changed, moved around because, you know, Chalaba came in late on loan. I remember I was at Stamford bridge for a 11 draw and Nathaniel Klein started that game with Richards on the. Richards now plays on the right. Gay now plays on the left. When he was in the middle of.
- [09:42]
John McKenzie
That, you brought in Charlie Riaz as well. Riyadh, right, who, who got injured very early on too. And that disrupted. And then a lot of the, I think a lot of the early games just I was looking back at it this morning and the, the lineups are just so inconsistent. You've got, I mean Oddson Eduard is playing at times Canada as a, as a, as an outside forward. And then you've got Inetia almost playing as like a second striker and it morphing into a bit of a three, five, two shape. And I think in across that period it was very much that the transfer window had sort of dictated the way that Glasner wanted to go and it took him a while to actually find the orientation of players that he actually wanted.
- [10:17]
Reuben Pinder
Yeah. And with the disruption this summer, more late transfer business and of course the Europa League conference league saga, there was a lot of concern among the fan base that that might lead to another slow start this season. But it's been quite the opposite. And one very important player that, that has been in and not in and out of the team always plays when he's 100% fit, but has struggled with a couple of groin injuries is Adam Wharton.
- [10:44]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Come on.
- [10:45]
Reuben Pinder
Who is of course, as I think John will agree, crucial to how palace play, especially when the ball is recovered, moving it forward quickly. He's the real key to that.
- [10:55]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Now that definitely brings me to my next point really in how Glassner makes this formation, this sort of 3, 4, 2, 1 work in comparison to, I mean, I don't want to compare him to Manchester United because I don't want any of those rumors flying around. But how has he managed to do it and how has Amarim struggled to do it in that respect? Is a player like Wharton really key there?
- [11:13]
John McKenzie
I don't think it's necessarily the, the, the player issue here, although I think, I mean tactics is always just how you're using the players and how you're getting the most out of them. But formation is only just one small part really of, of, of the, the much broader like concept of a tactical system. And you know, in many respects the, the question that you're talking about when you're talking about a 3, 4, 3 versus a 4, 3, 3 or whatever and it's, it even sounds weird saying these formations because as a tactical analyst for a media company, I don't use formations very often. Like you sit in lots of podcasts with me, I don't often just say, well this is a 4, 4, 2 or whatever. In many respects that tells us roughly like what we can expect from where the players will be on the pitch. But the players roles can completely change that. And I think that's the important thing to remember that when you're talking about Oliver Glasner's system versus Reuben Amram's system. Oliver Glasner can play low block encounter football. So this season Crystal palace have had 40% possession. That's the second lowest possession in the league. I think it's only maybe Burnley who are below them. That completely changes the, the tenor of what, what you're trying to do with, with that, with that system. Whereas if you compare Reuben Amram, Manchester United have 54 possession this season because they're trying to do something different. They need to control games because they're an elite team, they have good players. It, it is going to suit them to get those players on the ball as much as possible. And then I, I would just, I dug into a bit of even like the places on the pitch that you're taking. The touches change as well. So if you look at palace, they've had around 600 touches in the final third this season. Manchester United have had over 900. I think it's closer to 930 now. Manchester United had more like 600 more touches than palace this season as well. But if you look at it as a percentage, it's 25% of their touches are in the final third if you're, if you're Manchester United, it's only 20% if you're Palace. And again, that, that just, just tells you that these, these coaches are trying to do different things. Reuben Amarim wants to possess the ball, wants to get it down the field, in, into his dangerous front line that they've just spent £200 million on. But when he gets there, they want to win the ball back. They want to high up the pitch, they want to stop the opponent from being able to play because that's the expectation of what elite teams do. As we've already talked about, Glassner is happy just sitting in a mid block and saying, okay, we're going to, we're going to do the same thing. We're going to try and get the ball forward. But there's so much less emphasis on we have to retain possession of the ball at all costs. Because what we're going to aim to do is not give up space at all, make it hard for teams to play through. And I think there's an interesting tactical meta here as well, which is that as the Premier League is evolving, teams are finding it harder to progress the ball down the field for a number of reasons. One is that teams are defending slightly differently, but also teams are prioritizing different profiles of player now. So you don't have maybe quite the same sort of tempo, tactical players in the middle for some of these elite teams. The conversation about spurs at the moment is how are they progressing the ball? It's all through the fullbacks channel balls and using kudus to, to change, you know, 60, 30 balls into 50, 50 balls and make it a more sustainable way of doing that. And so I think that's played into Palace's hands. So they can sit in this mid block really tight, not let anyone through, fall back easily into box defending, but also have the, the ability to then go forward. Manchester United are not trying to do it in quite the same way because, because they feel as though they need to try and influence games more both in and out of possession and that changes the whole context. So yeah, it's not quite so simple as just being like three, four, three, make it work. And I guess if you look at it just in terms of bold percentages of possession, all of the teams at the bottom of the table who have less than 50% or approaching like 40, 45% are the teams who you would consider the relegation candidates. So you know, we've talked about Burnley, like Leeds are down there, Everton, teams like that, West Ham, these teams are not trying to have the ball that they're able to respond to it. Whereas the teams at the top where they have possession, it's the teams you expect to be the elite team. So there's almost like an expectation, I think, for Manchester United to be having more possession because it almost always translates to position in the league. So yeah, it's a tricky one really.
- [15:18]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Okay. Another weapon they've added to their Arsenal Ruben is corners. Ahmed Walid's done this really interesting study on how palace have gone from the worst at corners to one of the best. Can you just explain some of that?
- [15:30]
Reuben Pinder
Yeah, it's quite the turnaround. Obviously Arsenal still scored the most corners because they get more of them partly to do with the possession things that John's kind of just alluded to with the elite teams. But per corner, palace are by far and away the most effective team. And I'm not sure, I think Glasner has one specific coach dedicated to it.
- [15:50]
John McKenzie
I think he has two actually. Like he has an attacking and defensive set piece coach and they, I think they spend 15 minutes in every training session working on set pieces which again, like it's, it's, it makes you much better at doing this.
- [16:03]
Reuben Pinder
I mean, part of it is the delivery. So obviously Wharton and Hughes, both left footed, playing a central midfield together, which you don't often see but they will take in swinging corners from one side. Last season Eze took them from the other side and without him now recently it's been Daishi Kamada. There's clever screening going on in the box. Obviously palace play with three centre backs. Mark Gaye not the tallest centre back but you know, got the assist for Nketiah and caught caused a kind of poor clearance from Gravenberch for Sar's opener. So he's just as effective in the box as Lacroix and Chris Richards. So it's clever but simple. Screens runs from the front post to the back post just creating space. And yeah, I mean I'm not as tactically astute in my analysis as Jon, but it seems to be working. And if you are a team who has to maybe average less possession and find other ways of kind of finding gains on other teams, then why not try and become the set piece masters?
- [17:06]
John McKenzie
It's worth saying as well, if you've got an extra centre back on the field, it's going to make you more aerially threatening from both attacking and defensive set pieces. So it makes sense to be the sort of thing to try and optimize.
- [17:15]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Okay, fine, let's move on. Basically want to understand how palace actually end up sustaining this form. We'll tackle that next.
- [17:24]
John McKenzie
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- [17:31]
Reuben Pinder
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- [17:32]
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- [18:00]
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- [19:23]
Ayo Akimwaleere
So palace haven't lost since mid April, but the question is, how do they Ruben Dynamo Kyiv on Thursday in Europe. This is a massive, massive game. Are you excited by this? And also a little nervous.
- [19:38]
Reuben Pinder
Not nervous really, no, it's.
- [19:40]
Ayo Akimwaleere
It feels like they can win everything.
- [19:42]
Reuben Pinder
Look at that. I mean Glasner did say at the FA cup celebrations, four competitions next season, four titles to win. Now are we going to compete for the, for all four of them? Unlikely. But like we were saying earlier about the mentality. So yeah, it's much more of an exciting test than a nerve wracking one. Palace are in European competition for the first time ever. You know, what's not to be excited about? And while a lot of fans obviously do feel like the Europa League spot was maybe unfairly taken away from them, the Conference League does maybe offer some positives in terms of sustaining this form. It may be due to the naturally weaker opposition in that competition. It maybe allows for more rotation, whereas in the Europa League you maybe want to put out a stronger team which may take more of a hit on your league form. And there have been some really good additions in the summer that will allow us to do that. Uche joining from Getafe, Camvo joining as an extra centre back because that's where especially when you play three all the time. Palace were quite light last season. So yeah, it's very exciting.
- [20:43]
Ayo Akimwaleere
How do palace fans feel about the downgrade? I mean the Conference League is still a European trophy, but Europa League.
- [20:50]
Reuben Pinder
I know, it would have been great, wouldn't it? Yeah, it does feel like something the team earned was been unfairly taken away from them. But I think enough time has passed now since that decision and like I say, we're kind of finding reasons to see the positives now once kind of the rage subsided because you know, we saw Nottingham Forest struggle to get a point against Rail Betis and that's the kind of level that you're up against in the Europa League. Whereas the Conference League offers also from a fan perspective, some maybe some more interesting trips to places that you would never otherwise go. A bunch of my friends are currently on their way to Poland for this game. So yeah, it's like I say, just what's not to be positive about?
- [21:34]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Okay, fair, fair. I like that. The big question is, I mean it's more football now for this squad, John. Have they got enough in their arsenal to kind of rotate it? Because Premier League football, you've also got League Cups, you've got so much more to play with now.
- [21:47]
John McKenzie
Yeah, especially because there's an argument to be made that the reason why Glasner can be so successful playing this way is we talked about consistency already and the fewer games that you have, the easier it is to be consistent. Right. So adding a chunk of extra games to that with the added, you know, travel in there as well, much less recovery time, much less time to work with the players, that is going to have a knock on effect. And clubs like palace who are traditionally sort of lower mid table, lower half teams just don't have the squads built to be able to withstand that kind of, that kind of turnover games. Right. Which is why the elite teams have these massive squads in order to be able to compete on a number of fronts. So yeah, that's definitely the worry with this. And you know, know Glasner has form on this when, when he won the Europa League with, with Frankfurt in 2122. I think it was 2122, wasn't it? They finished 11th in the, in the league that season. So yeah, that's that I guess that's the concern. But as Ruben would will say, like, well, you know, the reason we're playing in the league almost is to get into these European competitions. So we're happy. You'd probably be happy to, to allow a bit of, of a drop in performance, well, results in, in the league in order to go deeper in Europe.
- [22:56]
Reuben Pinder
Right. Yeah. But I think we can all accept that whatever happens, we will finish 12th again. Although maybe not this season. Who knows?
- [23:06]
John McKenzie
Yeah, yeah.
- [23:07]
Ayo Akimwaleere
That's the thing though. I do wonder where now there's a bit of a taste of European football, what those expectations look like for palace fans. I mean, a bit higher up the table surely.
- [23:18]
Reuben Pinder
Yeah, I mean the trend, I mean I say 12th at somewhat tongue in cheeky but the, the underlying numbers this season have palace very high in the table, suggesting that they deserve what They've got and you know, if you look at isolated incidents, perhaps a little bit unlucky not to have a couple more points this season. So obviously the conference league run starts in earnest this week and that will as John says like over the longer term this season have an effect on, on league form and, and consistency of selection. There's a couple of thinner positions in the squad. Daniel Munoz is the only real right wing back there and Nathaniel Klein is still around. I don't know, maybe the versatility of someone like Jefferson Lerma could be molded into, into a wing back in an emergency.
- [24:05]
John McKenzie
The wing back position is also like incredibly like physically demanding.
- [24:09]
Reuben Pinder
Exactly. Yeah.
- [24:09]
John McKenzie
Look at the way that Munoz plays. He's one, incredibly important to the attacking play and two, yeah, has to run up and down all day long. So you add another game in midweek and you're starting to really push him into the red zone.
- [24:20]
Reuben Pinder
Yeah, so that's a concern. Tyrek Mitchell now thankfully does have a little bit of backup. I hesitate to call it competition because Mitchell has been so good so far this season. Surely knocking on the door to get back into the England squad. I would expect like you saw against Liverpool, he, his interceptions and then attacking run that led from, that led to the corner that, that, that the opening goal came from. And I think he's been somewhat unfairly maligned by some Palestine over the years because he's kind of seen as a defender who can't attack and that has gradually changed over Glasner's time as he has had to learn the wing back role. Kind of reminiscent of what Wan Baka was on the other side those years ago when he, when he came through and, and I think he suffers from a slightly unfair aesthetic bias in the way that he plays. He's maybe not as silky as some other left footed players and his crossing can be slightly inconsistent. But as I think Matt Wiesden wrote about on the Athletic, we're seeing more low crosses towards mate who's making near post runs rather than kind of hopeful floated crosses. So Mitchell is gradually improving in all those aspects. But yeah, like I say in terms of squad depth the wing backs have to be looked after very carefully because they're so crucial to the system. But you fingers crossed.
- [25:41]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Okay, well I'm sorry to pop this bubble of positivity gents, but we've been asking for questions on YouTube, Ruben, and the obvious one came through and there've been loads actually so please keep them coming in. This one says look, with Glassner being out of contract in the summer. Does another team try and get him before the season ends or before he signs an extension at Palace? This must be the fear, surely.
- [26:05]
Reuben Pinder
Yeah, and I'll try to answer this without my kind of fan hat on too much. I'll try and be realistic. Glasner has spoken a lot about, he's bought into the club a lot. He's got a great relationship with the fans. The players clearly all love playing for him. He clearly holds a lot of power at the club in that his insistence that the club did not have adequate replacement for Mark Gay meant that he wasn't signed on deadline day. Yes, he hasn't signed an extension. He's going into his last year. I don't necessarily blame him for that. Every manager wants to, you know, ascend in their career in the same way that players do. But I, I, I'm, I don't, I don't really see him leaving mid season. I think maybe, maybe if you throw enough money at anyone they will, you know, take a new job and with Manchester United specifically, while it might to, to normal fans like us seem, seem a bit mad that players and managers keep going there despite their kind of just consistently getting worse over time. When you are at the elite of a sport like this, I suppose you have to have enough self belief to think that you can be the one to improve that kind of sleeping giant. I think that's why players still go there thinking if I'm part of this team that turns United around, I'm a hero forever and if I don't then it's not that much for a reputational hit because nobody succeeds there and I move on. So I can see Glasner being know interested in a job at a bigger club. In terms of losing him mid season I don't really see that happening. I think the momentum that he's built at palace there would be, there's no harm in just finishing the season and seeing what more he can achieve, enhancing his reputation further and then maybe analyzing his options in the summer. So not worried about him losing mid season, which could obviously sound stupid in about six weeks time when, when United throw money at him. If United throw money, money at him.
- [27:56]
Ayo Akimwaleere
I should say he's, he's already prophes. I, I don't even think it's a Manchester United thing, John. I mean this is a coach who's done brilliant work at Frankfurt's, done brilliant work here at Crystal Palace. He's great motivator of men. There will be other clubs looking at Glassner surely.
- [28:12]
John McKenzie
Yeah. And this is a conversation that Reuben and I had yesterday actually just thinking about like, well, what would the career progression of someone like Glasner look like? Because, and I think that's why I was suggesting, you know, if Manchester United did come in with a lot of money, I think it would be tempting for him because I can't see any of the other elite teams in, in the Premier League league necessarily going for him. Right. So it's not just, it's not just the question of like can I improve Manchester United? It's almost like is this my big chance to prove that I can step up at the elite level? Maybe the, the, that trajectory changes if you take German football into account. So we were talking again yesterday about how Glassner does have links with the Red Bull system. He, he worked at Salzburg for a little while and RB Leipzig are always looking for, for. Well, I mean you could argue the Red Bull system is of a tactical crisis right now. Where do we go? Where do we head? So wouldn't, I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility they might consider him as a, as an option or one of the, one of the other big teams in Germany as well. So yeah, I think it's, it's kind of interesting because I think he does need to have that, that stepping stone club. The, the point of comparison I think is Thomas Frank going to Spurs. What's interesting about that is it does throw up a lot of the issues that I think people would have with a mid table coach stepping up to the elite level. And we, we, you know, we're coming off the back of a result where spurs have struggled away against BO Glimps. Yeah. So. And the big questions being asked are to what extent can you take a mid table club approach and sort of port it onto an elite club without that necessarily having these teething issues we're seeing in terms of how do you progress the ball sustainably. The stuff that we talked about before with Glassner vs Amarim, the expectation when you have an elite squad of players is that you get the most out of that elite squad and maybe sitting in a sort of mid block into low block, block, counter, attacking approach, isn't the, the best way of doing things? I mean arguably that's what Olegana Solskjaer did at Manchester United and it worked. But it, I think that eventually it got to a point where the board and the, and the fans perhaps felt as though there was very much a plateau on, on they'd reached the ceiling with, with that kind of approach. So Yeah, I think those are the sorts of questions you have to ask when you consider the, the steps in, in Glasner's career. The other thing to say, I guess we, again, we talked about this yesterday, was if Glassman did go to Manchester United, hypothetically speaking of a course and it didn't go well, I don't think it would torch his career. We talked about Graham Potter, for example, went to Chelsea, things didn't work out and he still was able to get the, the West Ham job. So I, I think there's the, the, it's an interesting proposition. I think it would be a bold elite side who brought in a, a manager like that because of the tactical aspects, but obviously in terms of the man management, the coaching ability, the individual improvement of players, I think there's no question that he has deserved to be in these sorts of conversations.
- [31:03]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Look, I was going to talk about Margaret, obviously so close to leaving the club, but we've now talked about the potential of Lesnar leaving the club. Obviously Ebereche Eze left the club, Alise left the club. I mean, what does that put you as a bunch of fans when you know your most prized assets? Because it's the pecking order of elite football.
- [31:25]
Reuben Pinder
Yeah. It's the food chain.
- [31:26]
Ayo Akimwaleere
If someone shows promise, they're going to go somewhere else.
- [31:30]
Reuben Pinder
There is an acceptance that this is the model. Right. So to, to keep improving or to even stay, you know, treading water, you need to, you need to bring money in. And palace have registered some losses over the last few years and that's why selling players like Elise for, I would argue half his real value at the time, they have to be made and you know, as I came in five years ago for 20 odd million sold for more than 60, that's good business, especially when you consider what he did last season. Right. Bringing silverware to the club with Gay, it's kind of reminiscent of when Wilfred Zaha kept staying despite constantly being linked with moves to bigger clubs. Because this summer and last summer a bid didn't come in that reached Palace's valuation in terms of what Gay was worth to palace, if he had four years left on his contract now and a club bid, let's say £80 million at a more convenient time in the summer, then I don't think he'd be here. But in terms of the fee of like sort of 35 odd million plus, I believe a 10% sell on clause which would, you know, realistically never come into action if he goes to a top, top club, just didn't feel worth it given the amount of games we have to play. His quality. So he's a bit of an outlier in this, in that. But Elise was moved on for profit. Eze was moved on for profit. Wharton will. If he stays fit and continues to play like this, Wharton will go to an elite club for at least £100 million. Like he's that much of a kind of special unicorn player, I think. So there is an acceptance of it now and palace fans are more used to it now because for years, like I say, with Wilfried Zaha, he just stayed until he was slightly over the hill and then left. By which point palace had already brought in a couple of, you know, flare attackers to. To replace his output. But, yeah, palace fans understand that this is how clubs like them have to operate. And eventually, like, maybe you don't sign, like, finding players like Elise and Eze in the championship and Gay and Wharton is very difficult. Those are four absolute gems. And you won't always find players that good. But another great piece of business I think that doesn't get spoken about much is selling Joachim Anderson, who came in under Patrick Vieira in 2021. He really helped the team evolve tactically, but with his passing and being more mobile than the center that preceded him. But it was deemed, you know, a worthwhile deal to sell for 40 million. He was 28 at the time to Fulham and bring in Max Enlacrois for half the money, who's maybe slightly less glamorous on the ball, but really effective in this system in the middle of the back three. So when you can, when you keep doing smart business like that and ultimately, like, results dictate how happy fans are. So if Gay leaves for free next summer, which. Which I think is the most likely scenario, because like I say, if palace aren't going to sell for 35 million in the summer, why would they sell for presumably less in January? Halfway through. Halfway through a season. So, yeah, there's an acceptance of it for sure, but there's trust in the club to. To kind of keep repeating the magic. Yeah.
- [34:31]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Okay, well, let's move on because coming up, we'll make some, I guess, premature predictions of where palace finished the season.
- [34:43]
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- [34:59]
Suchi Srinivasan
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- [35:12]
Reuben Pinder
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- [36:00]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah. Well, Ruben, we spoke about West Ham yesterday and I guess what they wanted to achieve with the club. Look, palace are in Europe, in a decent position in the league. Surely it doesn't get much better from here, does it?
- [36:14]
Reuben Pinder
Well, football fans never. There's never enough, is there of never enough success. The FA cup win last season is kind of. Yeah, that's the pinnacle for a lot of fans, you know, having been through what they've been through from two administrations this century. You know, almost going down to League one, almost not existing promotions, FA cup final heartbreak, winning an FA cup, it's been a roller coaster. And you know, there was lots of tears in Wembley that day for people who maybe never thought they'd see that happen. So in that sense, palace fans are grateful and appreciative of how far the club have come. But of course you always want to build on that progress and you don't want to tread water. So I think there is. This might sound ridiculous, but there is kind of an expectation of getting to the Conference League final. Wow. Well, given some of the teams that have been there, you know, West Ham won the Conference league and finished 14th, so Premier League teams of that level can, can absolutely win that competition. As we said, depth is a big part of that. The expectation in terms of the season is kind of hard to judge because like we said, the competitions affect one another. So should palace go far in the FA cup again? I think a bottom half finish would be accepted, you know, but there's no reason to think that that's inevitable this season given the form that they've shown in the league so far, dominating against or creating at least loads of great chances against smaller teams and also giving big teams a bloody nose. So there's no reason not to be optimistic this season. But there is an acknowledgement that with four competitions to play, the success might not come on all four fronts.
- [37:48]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah. With all these new, I guess, ingredients added to Glassner's dish this season and for Crystal palace, you're the outsider here looking in. Where'd you reckon they'll finish this season? Like make a bold prediction?
- [38:01]
John McKenzie
Yeah, I mean I think if it weren't for the fact that the palace are probably, I mean they're up there amongst the favorites in the, in the Conference League, I would probably have them in their current guys around seventh maybe, but maybe bump that down a couple of spaces just because I think the, the focus will be on and should be on the Conference League. So still a very good, good. Obviously top half finish is, is, is what palace fans have wanted for a while. Right. But yeah, and, and I think, you know, I think that, that we're talking about is this the pinnacle for Palace? It's like this is the pinnacle for, for all clubs. Right. Performing well in the league and performing in Europe. As a Leeds fan, that's all I would want to see. And, and, and I don't think that's like a negative thing. Right. It is something to aspire to and it is, you know, it's, it's one of the most difficult leagues in the world. World. And yeah, I think that, you know, it's a testament to Glassner that he's got palace, you know, performing at this level.
- [38:56]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah, gents, I've really enjoyed that. Reuben, John, appreciate your time. It's been actually a lot of fun talking about palace and also thank you guys for listening. We'll catch you soon.
- [39:07]
John McKenzie
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabro and Jay Beal. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and Avi Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows. Search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube heathletic FC podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC podcast is an Athletic media company production.
- [39:44]
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Jerry App Advertiser
You look the same.
- [39:52]
Verizon iPhone Advertiser
But with this camera everything looks better. Especially me.
- [39:55]
Jerry App Advertiser
You haven't changed your hair in 15 years.
- [39:58]
Suchi Srinivasan
Selfies check please New and existing customers can get the new iPhone 17 Pro designed to be the most powerful iPhone ever with eligible phone Trade in on Unlike Unlimited ultimate any condition guaranteed Best 5G source route metrics data United States 1H 2025 All Rights Reserve trade and additional terms apply for all offers. See verizon.com for details.
- [40:13]
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- [40:51]
Reuben Pinder
If I waited for permission, I never would have started it. I know what I know. I can't give up.
- [40:55]
Paige from Giggly Squad
It is a study in social movements.
- [40:57]
Suchi Srinivasan
That we are experiencing right now.
- [40:59]
Paige from Giggly Squad
You know, when you look back in.
- [41:00]
Reuben Pinder
10, 15 years, you'll say, oh, these are the new defining leaders.
- [41:04]
Suchi Srinivasan
I'm Suchi Srinivasan.
- [41:05]
Reuben Pinder
And I'm Kamila Rakimova. We are the hosts of In Her Element, a podcast by bcg. We bring you the voices of extraordinary women and their allies who are pushing business and technology forward. Listen now on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.