How have Juventus fallen so far?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Athletic FC Podcast – "How Have Juventus Fallen So Far?"

Episode Information:

• Title: How Have Juventus Fallen So Far?
• Release Date: April 1, 2025
• Host: Ayo Akinwolere (Ayo Akinwolere)
• Guests: David Ornstein, Phil Hay, Adam Crafton, Matt Slater

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Introduction and Context

In this episode of The Athletic FC Podcast, host Ayo Akinwolere delves deep into the recent struggles of Juventus Football Club. Once dominant champions of Serie A, Juventus find themselves grappling with a series of setbacks both on and off the pitch. The discussion is enriched by insights from football journalists and commentators, Karl Anka and Max Caligari, who provide a comprehensive analysis of the factors contributing to the club's decline.

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Thiago Motta’s Tenure and Sacking ([01:40] - [08:05])

The episode opens with a focus on the unexpected dismissal of Juventus manager Thiago Motta after a mere nine months at the helm. Karl Anka highlights the instability introduced by Motta’s management style:

Karl Anka ([02:56]): "He changed the seven captains in more than 40 games... he hadn’t chosen a stable team. This was the key to the failure."

Motta, previously lauded for his strategic approach at Bologna, struggled to adapt to the high-pressure environment of Juventus. Anka notes that Motta's inability to maintain consistent team selection and his tactical decisions, such as subbing out players during critical moments, undermined team morale and performance.

Ayo Akinwolere adds:

Ayo Akinwolere ([05:10]): "With Motta, Juventus were unbeaten but the football wasn’t particularly entertaining... it felt like the team was two or three drafts early for the final product."

The episode discusses how injuries, particularly to key defender Bremer, and tactical missteps in crucial Champions League matches exacerbated Juventus' woes, leading to their exit from both the Champions League and Copa Italia.

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Fan Expectations and Managerial Fit ([08:05] - [15:45])

The conversation shifts to the expectations of Juventus fans regarding the club's playing style. While previous managers like Max Allegri and Antonio Conte emphasized defensive solidity, there’s a growing desire for a more dynamic, front-foot approach.

Karl Anka explains:

Karl Anka ([10:26]): "Juventus wanted fans to see winning football that is also entertaining... Max Allegri always said you need to stay humble, train to defend."

The clash between modern, attractive football and traditional, defensive strategies creates tension within the club's identity. The inability of Thiago Motta to reconcile these conflicting styles ultimately led to his downfall.

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Player Transfers and Performance ([16:14] - [23:57])

A critical examination of Juventus' transfer strategy reveals discrepancies between high-profile signings and their on-field performances. Karl Anka discusses the challenges faced by new acquisitions like Moise Kean and Matthias Sulle:

Karl Anka ([18:55]): "At Fiorentina, Moise Kean is thriving without the same pressure as at Juventus... He didn’t show his value here."

The podcast underscores how the high-pressure environment and tactical rigidities at Juventus stifled the potential of promising players, contrasting with their success in more supportive settings like Fiorentina or Sevilla.

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Appointment of Igor Tudor ([29:48] - [36:33])

With Thiago Motta’s departure, Igor Tudor steps in as the new manager. Hosted discuss the uncertainty surrounding Tudor’s tenure and his fit within Juventus’ current framework.

Karl Anka ([30:44]): "He has a very strong character... He knows this is the great chance of his career."

The panel debates whether Tudor, known for his short stints at previous clubs, can stabilize Juventus and restore their competitive edge. The consensus leans towards cautious optimism, recognizing Tudor's potential but acknowledging the significant challenges ahead.

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Cristiano Giuntoli’s Role and club Management ([33:19] - [36:33])

The role of Juventus’ sporting director, Cristiano Giuntoli, is scrutinized. Karl Anka praises Giuntoli’s track record at Napoli but points out that success also relies on a cohesive technical team:

Karl Anka ([33:19]): "Giuntoli was seen as the revolutionary man... But it’s not only one man... it’s a team effort."

The discussion highlights the complexity of club management, emphasizing that effective recruitment and team-building require harmonious collaboration between the sporting director, manager, and other club officials.

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Financial Challenges and Branding ([41:50] - [44:47])

One of the most perplexing issues for Juventus is the absence of a main shirt sponsor, a significant revenue stream for top-tier clubs. Karl Anka explains:

Karl Anka ([42:16]): "Juventus didn’t find a suitable brand willing to match their prestige... They want to maintain a high level to expand their brand globally."

This financial quandary is juxtaposed with Juventus’ broader branding efforts, including rebranding initiatives aimed at transforming the club into a global lifestyle brand. The failure to secure a major sponsor underscores the club’s ongoing struggles to balance financial health with brand prestige.

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Serie A’s Global Standing ([44:47] - [50:42])

The episode concludes with a broader analysis of Serie A’s position in Europe’s top leagues. Max Caligari asserts that while Serie A remains technically competitive, its global brand lags behind the Premier League, La Liga, and Bundesliga:

Max Caligari ([47:15]): "Premier League, La Liga, Bundesliga, and Serie A are all technically there, but as a brand, Serie A is at a lower level."

Ayo Akinwolere counters with optimism about Serie A’s vibrant title races and the exciting styles of play from teams like Atalanta and Napoli, suggesting that sustained competitiveness can enhance the league’s global appeal.

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Conclusion and Future Outlook

The podcast wraps up with a reflection on the volatile nature of football management and the precarious future of Juventus. While the club faces significant challenges, the discussions suggest that strategic changes in management, tactical approaches, and financial strategies are crucial for Juventus to reclaim their former glory.

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Notable Quotes:

• Karl Anka ([02:56]): "He changed the seven captains in more than 40 games... he hadn’t chosen a stable team. This was the key to the failure."
• Ayo Akinwolere ([05:10]): "Juventus were unbeaten but the football wasn’t particularly entertaining... it felt like the team was two or three drafts early for the final product."
• Karl Anka ([33:19]): "Giuntoli was seen as the revolutionary man... But it’s not only one man... it’s a team effort."
• Max Caligari ([47:15]): "Premier League, La Liga, Bundesliga, and Serie A are all technically there, but as a brand, Serie A is at a lower level."

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This episode of The Athletic FC Podcast offers a comprehensive and engaging exploration of Juventus’ recent struggles, blending tactical analysis with insights into management and financial strategies. For fans and followers of Serie A, it provides a nuanced understanding of the multifaceted challenges facing one of Italy’s most storied football clubs.

Transcript

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[Karl Anka]

The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

[Max Caligari]

Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayoa Kimwalere. The days of Juventus winning Serie A season after season feel like they're long gone.

[Karl Anka]

PSV prevail. The Bianconeri are beaten.

[Max Caligari]

And what a roar. Let that final whistle full time. PSV 3 Juventus 1 PSV win 43 on aggregate. Incredible game last week. Thiago Motto was sacked with Juve languishing outside of the top four places. Add to that, they're also out of the Champions League and Copa Italia as well. So what has gone wrong at Juve and how do they rebuild? Okay, with us today we have our first football Italian journalist, commentator and also host of Pressing Max Caligari. Plus the athletics. Karl Anka is with us as well. Max, wow. Let's start with you. Look, you know, Motta sacking was fascinating for me because we look at what he did at Bologna and the style of football he had at Bologna. And you sort of felt this was a great graduation to go to the big club Juventus. But he only lasted nine months in Turin. What went wrong?

[Karl Anka]

Yeah, that's true. Everybody expected more from him and from his style of football. I think that we also had a lot of science about the thing that he wasn't fit yet to manage Juventus because about the relationship with the players. This was the great problem he had because he changed the seven captains in more than 40 games, for example, and he subbed off players when they weren't in their best moment, and when they were in the best moment, they didn't play in the successive game. So he hadn't chosen and stable team. So this was the key of the failure. And then of course, the games against PSV and Durban, against Empoli. He said after the game in the Coppa Italia, this was a shame because Empoli played with the recept team with many young players and they lost penalties and the whole stadium, Haaland stadium. So there were different and many signs that he wasn't fit yet to manage Juventus. And there was a failure for him and also for the management because Cristiano Giuntoli have chosen Thiago Motta in the summer. And everybody, not only you, IO thought that there was a good choice.

[Max Caligari]

Yeah, I mean, look, this is a really interesting one. I want to delve into the management and the board a little later on. Carl, I mean, Max makes a really interesting point. Perhaps this job came a little too early for him. But who says no to Juventus, right? If you look at the way, you know that Juventus started under Motta, I mean, I think the first six games there were the best defensive side across the whole of Europe, solid foundation. But then they went loads of games unbeaten. But a lot of those results were draws. We look at a guy who's come from Bologna playing really exciting, fascinating football, comes to Juventus incredibly defensive. Why do you think that is? Is it too early for him to have graduated to the big boy league?

[IO Akamolere]

This is a really good question. Juventus have been in a really interesting point since Cristiano Ronaldo, when he was at Real Madrid, defeated them in the Champions League final. They're in this very interesting phase where they're trying to modernize as a football club, but can't quite settle on a defining style of player or what they necessarily want to do. Now, Thiago Motta, through his time, even in the PSG youth academy, was getting a lot of plaudits for this 272 system that he was lauded for, which Everyone, how does that work? And then you realize you meant to read it left to right rather than defense upwards. But you're completely right. There was this spell where Juventus were unbeaten in air quotes, but the football wasn't particularly entertaining. And there was this conversation of, well, if we're going to be this defensive, surely we should just get Max Allegri back. Because I mean, you can say what you will about Max Allegri. The man knew how to organize the defense. This Juventus team feels like it was maybe two or three drafts early for the final product with Motta as well. I also think Max can probably speak a lot more about this. There's a game against Leipzig in the Champions League league phase where Juventus come from a goal down to win it very, very late on. But such are the injuries incurred in this game that I think that threw a huge spanner in whatever football Thiago motto wanted to play.

[Max Caligari]

Max, is it the injuries as well? Can we say that?

[Karl Anka]

Yeah, that's true. The thing that is that the game could have been the turning point of the season for Thiago Motta, for Juventus, for the style of play because they won, there were 10 men in that game. And the injury of Bremer also was very heavy for the team because he is the best defender of the roster. And as Karl said, the way the team played was also because they had Bremer in the defense and they can play one versus one with the opposite forwards. Even if I think that one of the thing we underestimate in the first part when we thought that this could be the game changer for Juventus, Santiago Motta this season, is that they were able to defend very well when they add the ball. They weren't so good when the other team had the ball, when the other team put pressure on them and didn't give them the spaces to go on counter attack. So when the other teams began to know the style of play of Juventus, then it was more difficult for Thiago Motta to find the key to defend as well as they did in the first part of the season.

[Max Caligari]

Yeah. Max, what style of football do Juve fans love? I mean, we look at Allegri winning football. Winning football. But in terms of style though, I mean we've spoken about Allegri and his defensive capabilities and also Conte, let's face it, very pragmatic approach to football. But you know, are they a fan base that's now craving front foot football like we're seeing in the modern era, know teams playing tick attacker or you know, Dynamic style.

[Karl Anka]

Yeah, they wanted to go on that way with Thiago Moza, but they also wanted to go on that way with Andrea Pirlo. They also wanted to go on their way with Norito Sarri and more. They also wanted to go on that way with Gigi Mifredi, who was the coach and the manager of Bologna in the early 90s, last 80s, early 90s, and then went to manage Juventus and they played under him some great games. Won in the Cubs cup against Barcelona, they were eliminated, but they played a fantastic game with Roberto Bajan to Toski Laci. But at the end of the season, in the decisive and most important part of the season, spring, last games, they couldn't win. And the project ended at the end of this season, at this season. So I think that they want the fans of Juventus, they want winning game. But the key is you need to play well to win. You have more chances to play to win if you play exciting and entertaining football, modern football, but the difference is that you need to win also when you don't play well, you don't need to be ashamed to defend. Max Allegri always said this. You need to stay humble, you need to learn to defend. And sometimes when his team was winning 2, 3, 0, he said, okay, compact now. Train to defend, train to suffer. This is the way you can win, because now you can choose to defend because you are in control of the game. And this is the difference, in my opinion, between Sarri, Pirlo Moza and Conte Allegri and other managers in the past.

[Max Caligari]

It's a tricky one, Carl, because, you know, there isn't. There were clear signs, and we've said it on this podcast, that Thiago Motta is hopefully going to be one of the better coaches in Europe. You know, he's a young coach and you could see from a style of play how interesting that could be wherever he went. Right. But at the same time, you also need time to implement those ideas. I mean, there are various teams across Europe's big, big teams who are in this kind of flux of identity versus where we want to go next. Surely nine months is enough time to know whether or not this guy had what it took to make Juventus a decent team.

[IO Akamolere]

Yes and no. And I feel, I feel this is happening with a lot of the quote, unquote, super heavyweights in Europe. And this has become especially pronounced since the 1920 season in Covid. So you had a round of football clubs that tried to get in, former players to manage. So, like Juventus, Juventus Got Imperlo. Chelsea tried something with Frank Lampard. Manchester United tried something with Ole Gunnar Solskjaer due to. I mean United are almost their own special case.

[Max Caligari]

Let's not go there.

[IO Akamolere]

And you look now, if you currently look at the landscape route, Bayern Munich are being managed by Vincent Kompany, which is a manager who you expect. Oh, up and coming. But perhaps this is too soon for you right now. So there are a lot of big clubs, clubs that would routinely expect to get to the Champions League quarter final, shall we say that reached a point around 2019, 2020. And I sort of went what we're doing right now isn't currently working. We need to find something new and we need new ideas and we need new fresh faces. Now some of these experimentations have been more successful than others. I mean Olegon Solslska gets Man United to the Europa League final. Frank Lampard did was a qualified success in his first time at Chelsea and Pirlo did have some success in his season there as well. However you do get to this point of there are eventually the questions over what else do these younger managers have when things aren't going well? And some of these managers steer into this skid better than others. And this is why very often you get this conversation about can you actually set up a defense? Can you make your team suffer? Do you have anything outside side of your. Well, I used to manage and when I used to play at this football club and when I played at the football club, we did this now with Thiago Motta, it seems like his approach to management and man management, and we'll probably get onto that in a little bit, was not well suited to the Juventus ecosystem. However, and it appears to be, if you've realized your mistake, correcting it as soon as possible isn't a bad thing. And I think this is the big thing for Juventus and this is the thing for Juventus that is still a massive head scratcher for the non Juventus fans, which is this is a club that again since that Champions League final against Real Madrid and Ronaldo doing that have tried all sorts of things to re establish their dominance in the European stage. I mean this is a club that signed Cristiano Ronaldo, they've changed their club badge that Jay, they've done various experimentations with their football kits and lifestyle brand and whatnot and they seem to be going for this sort of more than a football club but a lifestyle brand included onto it. And part of that it's helpful if your team is playing very attractive passing football so the casuals or the less au fait can pick up Juventus as your second team or becomes really cool to wear Juventus top even if you're not a Juventus fan or Serie A watcher. How they get to that phase every time they, you know, they're like, okay, it's going to be. Sorry, it's going to be about tidy passing football and like, oh no, okay, it's going to be Perlo and it's going to be about being the hipsters favorite with bearded Perlo giving press conferences and it didn't quite work. So I think this is another experimentation in that it was going to be Thiago Motta, the next up and coming manager in Italian football. And then very quickly, oh, no, no, no, no, no. He's a lot more stubborn in the dressing room than we thought he would be.

[Karl Anka]

Just another thing because we say also in Italy are always winning football, as we said, but we need to remember that Sarri won the Scudetto, but he was sacked the same. The club and him parted ways. Pillo won Coppa Italia and Italian super cup, but he didn't continue his his way as a manager. So it's winning football. I think more it's kind of different mentality. It's what we call in Italy in the last week we read in every newspaper, in every website, Juventus, Juventus. Okay. This is different from other clubs. I don't know, maybe in England you have Manchester United. Alex Ferguson was yesterday watching the youth, the youth team against Aston Villa, I suppose, yesterday evening. So Sir Alex Ferguson is Manchester United and he knows what the club means. How many managers went after him and tried to do more or less what he did and weren't able to do. Because it's something different, this winning football. Okay, I think more it's also mentality mentality. Different mentality.

[Max Caligari]

Yeah, Max, I'm fascinated by that when you make those comparisons with Manchester United. Because what we have also seen is coaches coming to Manchester United and perhaps the coaches are okay, but the infrastructure isn't quite ready to accommodate these coaches. Do you see that with Juventus as well? Not to say Motta is a bad coach, but the infrastructure of Juve doesn't allow him to really, really do what he can do, as he did in Bologna, for instance.

[Karl Anka]

Yeah, maybe this is one key. Sure. For what we know, because as Carl says, we know we read a lot of things, but for example, Tiger Motor doesn't talk and didn't talk even in his previous clubs with journalists of the records, some personal and dedicated exclusive interviews, nothing as Guardiola, for example. But he's not Guardiola for now. And so I think the infrastructure, as you said, didn't allow him to express himself, but also that himself and he wasn't so capable to put himself inside the Juventus environment. This was one of the key. And maybe he didn't talk as he needed with the general manager, Cristiano Giuntoli, with the president and the other apical roles and figures of the, of the club, so he couldn't put himself in the environment. And this is the reason why the fans, for example, now want Giorgio Chiellini, who has a role more in, in the financial part of the, of the club now, to have more influence in the technical sector of the club, because he can tell the people to come from outside what this Juventianism really means.

[IO Akamolere]

You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akamolere.

[Max Caligari]

I just want to talk to you about Juve's business players coming in. You know, Douglas Luiz from Aston Villa, one of the biggest signings as well. But you know, yesterday we were doing a. A podcast on Bournemouth and Iraola and I'm looking at Dean Halsen, who's who. Who Juve let slip. I'm looking at Matteo Sulle, who's at Roma now doing really interesting things. Moise Kane, who's at Fiorentina's second top scorer, mvp. Come on. You know, and, and they were all under Juve's books and then you spent all this money and you've hired this new coach and then you've sacked him again. And these brand new players who were supposed to take the club to the next level haven't worked out. I mean, what's going on here with the business that Juve are doing, how they're scouting and actually what kind of, what kind of structure are they trying to create?

[Karl Anka]

Yeah, I think these are different cases. Some cases are on a financial issue. For example, Matthias Soleil grown in the club, so his value when the club bow team was almost zero and they sold him for 30 million euros, I suppose, more or less. So it was very important for the financial, the financial part of the club to do this kind of operation. Moiseken, that's true now, mvp. Yeah, that's true. But at Fiorentina, at different levels, as Massimo Allegri always repeated, there are categories in life and football. I don't say that is not so good. I say that maybe now is improving and growing and maybe next year or in one, two, three years, he can be the center forward of a big club, but he had many chances at Juventus and he wasn't able to show his value as he's doing now. So I think this is the difference. Because when you play for Bermud, you don't have the same pressure you have when you play for Manchester City, Chelsea, when you play for Fiorentina and Bologna and Roma too, as Soleil is doing now, you don't have the same pressure you have at Juventus. If you fail a game the next day, you are on the bench at Fiorentina. If Moisecan doesn't score in the next game, the successor game, he will play as a number nine. No doubts. This is the difference. If you have to be very strong shoulder to deal with this pressure.

[Max Caligari]

And what about the incomings? You know, Douglas Luiz, I said, you know, what do you think happened there? Why did you think Motta couldn't get the best out of these players?

[Karl Anka]

I think that Douglas Lewis at Aston Villa had the season of his life. So I think he's a good player. But I think that Monchi and Emery are very, very, very good. Very, very, very good sport director. Because. Because at Sevilla K, at Villarreal, Emery, they were able, Monchi and him were able to show the value of players that in other contexts didn't play as they did in Sevilla or in Villarreal. Also, I. I think now Marcus Rashford is playing very well at Aston Villa, but Aston Villa is not Manchester United. This is the difference. Dani Uma at Villarreal played the season of his life, but then he wasn't so good at this high level. He played in the semifinal of the Champions League, but he was able to repeat that level in the other years. So this is the difference. The same, in my opinion, is for Kob Mainors.

[IO Akamolere]

Yes, he's fascinating for me. So he's a player that I think should have. Should be having a better season.

[Karl Anka]

I think so also. But you know, at Atalanta every player plays very well when they go in another team. Not always. For example, Robin Gosian at Inter, he wasn't so good. Now he's so good at Fiorentina, because Atalanta is a very, very good environment. A club that protects you even if you don't do very well. Charles Di Catalari, for example, in this season. So this is the difference. Nico Gonzalez too, I think he's a very good player, but he was very, very, very low level with his performances. Maybe this is him. And Clubenas, there are some tactical issues too, because Clubenas Played wide on the right with Thiago Motta, even if he's a more midfielder. Center midfielder Nico Gonzalez preferred to play on the right, but Thiago Moto played him always or more often on the left. And Tudor, for example, in the last game played him on the right flank. So this could be a change. But I don't know if they really value the money Juventus paid for them.

[Max Caligari]

Does the shirt weigh heavy, Carl? Certain players stepping up to Manchester United, to traditional clubs like Juve, where the fans expect a lot and actually the press expects a lot for the players that play these, for these clubs.

[IO Akamolere]

I think Max has spoken very well about the differences. I mean, Moise Keane, as the English speakers may know him best from his stint at Everton is a very good case. So he was a up and coming young player. 18, 19, 19, 20 people were saying this is a player that potentially could be very important to Juventus. He goes to Everton, he spends some time on loan at Paris St Germain and there was this idea that he was never going to quite figure it out. This is the thing you very often see with players. It's very hard to come through as a teenager at a super club of this size, because the expectation isn't that you are good enough to play in the first team, but it's you're good enough to play in the first team of a football team that wants to win the champions, which means you are, you have to be at 16, 17, 18, 19,1 of the 0.00001% of football players right now. And you're looking at him now for Florentina and you're going, oh, there it is, it's there. You're finally putting it all together. You just needed a couple extra years, a little bit more stability and your manager not substituting you off in the 65th minute if you missed a chance. And I think what is very interesting about Juventus and this is me, I'm talking from the outside looking in. A lot of my homework for this episode came from watching g Juventus on YouTube. So hi Bepe from that channel. You've been a fantastic resource for me. But. But a lot of the outside looking in is Juventus went on this historical run of consecutives league titles under not just Conte, but also Allegri. But there was this understanding that he couldn't win the big one. And as we saw for two other teams in Europe, Bayern Munich, Paris Saint Germain, when you go five or six, seven years and you are just dominating your league and you cannot quite get the Champions League to solidify it. You do have this sort of almost league instability because everyone else in your league is catching up or in theory beginning to catch up. And you're slightly taking your eye off the ball on league competition because you're so focused on how do we take care of Real Madrid, how do we take care of Manchester City, how do we take care of the 12 games that define our season now instead of 38 games that define our season? And I think you can see this particularly in this Juventus squad for the last five or six years in that they are not as well equipped to deal with the weekly travails of Serie A football in the way that they used to. There's a physicality to Juventus that isn't there anymore. If you look at some of those Conte teams and the way they used to be able to run and run and run and just beat up teams, particularly in the lower half, that isn't really present in this Juventus team right now. And I think that may have also played into why Thiago Motta's not there anymore. Because they've drawn, I think they drew 13 games on the 13 matches under Thiago Motta, which is. It's unacceptable. If you're a Juventus fan, you need to start beating some of the bottom Half teams. 5, 6, 0. Their Coppa Italia defeat to Empoli and as Max has said, this was an Empoli B team essentially because Empoli were more focused on their league travails that they fielded amongst a bunch of youngsters. So there was a really pronounced period on the Motta where they lose the psv, they get knocked out of the Coppa Italia to Emplei and then they have essentially a wobble and Roma now are chasing their tails for top four. I think what Claudio Raniere is doing with Roma as well has created this instability. So we're going from a team that consistently used to win Serie A, so much so to the point that, I mean, some former Juventus higher ups may have played a big role in trying to get the Super League to happen because they decided league competition isn't really important to a point now where that they're struggling to get even into this expanded Champions League format.

[Karl Anka]

The last thing, maybe one of the important key to understand the failure of Thiago motto is that I think that this is about the experience, as we said, that you said at the beginning of the show. Allegri arrived at Juventus after managing in the lower leagues in the league one, as we call Serie Cheese, the third league and Then in the second division, then Cagliari in Serie A and then Juventus. Marcelo Lippi in the past managed Cesena and then Atalanta and then Napoli. And it wasn't the same Napoli as it is now as prestige and importance of the club. And then you went to Stegomota, of course. Yeah, Spezia than Bologna. But as we said, he needed more years to build himself as a manager and become manager worth to be capable to. To cope with the environment of Juventus. And about the draws, I think that he underestimates the psychological importance of the results. Because when you fight to win a game, as for example Napoli and Inter did in the last game, they struggle in the last 20 minutes against Sudinese and they see Milan, but they fought and they wanted to win the game. Because when you win this kind of game psychologically you build the confidence of the team. Instead he was focused on tactical aspects, technical aspects, and considering that player in that position, the other in the other position, instead of focusing on winning the game, this was the thing that he failed and could have changed the season for Mott and Juventus.

[Max Caligari]

Okay, we have to move on because we haven't even spoken about the new manager at all. Yeah, because coming up next we'll talk about Juve's new manager for now at least. Igor Tudor.

[IO Akamolere]

This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO akamolera.

[Max Caligari]

Okay, Max, let's talk about Igor Tudor. You know, he's at the helm and has a contract until the end of this season for his first game in charge, actually ended up in a one nil win over Genoa. It was a convincing first win, Max, but I mean, I'm looking at his CV right now and from all the teams he's coached, he hasn't stayed that long. Look at the Lazio, even the most recent appointments, he was there what, three months? Is he here to stay or should we just see the writing on the wall now?

[Karl Anka]

We don't know. I think that as he said and as we know, he has a very strong character. He has broken relationships early in the past, as you said, in his former clubs with the board, sometimes with some players, other times, for example with Matteo Gandouzi at Marseille and then they worked together again at Lazio. But he was one of the reason in the last summer that he part ways with Lazio because he wanted to change eight players, including Matias G. I think I am pretty sure that he knows that at Juventus he can do. Can behave like this. And I think also that he is aware that this is the great chance of his career. So I think, and I hope for him that he will try to be more flexible and to stay more than three months at Juventus.

[Max Caligari]

I mean, this is a tricky one, isn't it? Juventus Carlos still got a bit of a mountain to club to get back into the Champions League, but also I guess back to some of the stuff Max has been saying in terms of on identity, former player, I guess. But so was Pirlo is back and you know, perhaps giving them this short period with an identity and someone who knows the club really well could actually be a bit of a success, I guess.

[IO Akamolere]

It's a sprint finish, right? It is qualify for the Champions League or bus. Italian football had a pretty nervous week in Europe. Not just when Juventus got knocked out to psv, also saw the elimination of Atalanta and other teams as well. And we are geared for what should be a really fun finish this area. Because like we said, it's not just Juventus that aiming for that fourth position, but Florentina or Natal's Roma are resurgent as well. So will Mr. Tudor still be here in the summer? Will he be allowed to select his own players? I'm not sure. Like you say, he's only been there for short periods of time, but if you need. It's not quite Big Sam firefighter, but it does seem to be. Every game between now and in the season is a cup final, so to speak. So that's what they have to aim for.

[Max Caligari]

Yeah. What about the sporting director Max? Cristiano Gintoli, how is it viewed by Juventus fans? Because it's been an interesting. I'd say the last year at least has been quite fascinating.

[Karl Anka]

I think that we. We can't forget that the last three years of Massimiliano Allegri were very difficult for him, for the club and also for the fans. Because the entertaining football that we expected from Tiago Mota was the dream of the fans because they came from the years in which they haven't watched entertaining football with him, with Massimiliano Legri. Even if there were some issues about the financial problems of the clubs, of the club, the technical, the team that hadn't so many good players technical in a technical issue. But still, I think that Giuntoli was seen as the revolutionary man because he worked at Napoli. He was able with other good men in his staff to buy, for example, players like Vasquelia. Okay. Napoli won the Scudetto with Luciano Spalletti playing fantastic football. So people expected this. But as you know, nobody wins without the help of all the other parts of the club, all the other part of the technical stuff. So this is not only one man. This is not only one man show more in. In a club as. As Juventus. So now he is considered with Thiago Mota, the first responsible of the failure. But I think that we have to be balanced and we have to give him another chance. So let's have a look at what the players as Nico Gonzalez Cobainers and others will play under a new manager, Igor Tudor. And then we will say, okay, this was Juntoli's failure, or okay, it was a problem with Thiago Mot and the players are not so bad. And so you can recreate something also with the help of Cristiano Giuntoli. I think that the thing could be that he is very good on a technical part aspects, okay? Buying players and being in contact with the technical stuff during the season, okay? But as we have seen Inter, now they have a general manager now with the president Marotta. It was the same at Juventus in the past. The A.C. milan, Berlusconi, okay? Adriano Galliani and then Brida are the sports director who chosen, who chose the. The players. And then there was this other figure in the club when Marotta went to Inter and Paratici stayed alone at Juventus, he wasn't the same Paratici was when he had Morotta ahead of him. I think this is. And this could be the key.

[Max Caligari]

You know, Max makes a really interesting point around, you know, certain people going to certain clubs and being expected to do the same job when the infrastructure is different. We were having this conversation literally yesterday. Sporting directors go somewhere else and they go, well, he's going to make us really good again. But you forget where they came from and the resources that they had. And the team that they had was completely different. You know, same with managers, actually. Motta Bologna and that infrastructure was so different. You have to kind of. I guess the question I'm asking is, is it a bit of a gamble asking someone to come from somewhere else and expecting wonderful results in their new job?

[IO Akamolere]

Of course it's a gamble with every job. We've just spoken about Unai Emery, a monkey talk to Roma fans about how Monkey worked out over there, right? He worked very, very well at Sevilla and when he returned to Sevilla for round two, he openly admitted, hey, what I did at Roma didn't quite work. Monkey loves to tell this story about how he helped bring Ivan Rakitic to Sevilla for his first spell at the club. It takes him around the ground, shows him around the training ground and everything. And Rakitic is like, okay, yeah, maybe I'll think about it. And so the story goes, they went to a coffee shop and then the waitress was the future Mrs. Rakitic. And that's one of the reasons why he picked Sevilla. Right? As much as we would love to say, we have figured out football with XG and PPDA and X Tilt and Field Tilt. This is a sport where 22 people play football, but only two and try and control a football, but only two of them can control it using their hands. This thing bounces weird. Loads of odd things happen. I keep bringing this up, but if you're watching this or listening to this, I heartily recommend you check out Max Allegri's piece on the Players Tribune where he describes the Champions League final and how it was his life's ambition for more than 20 years to manage in a Champions League final and what it was like to be on the sideline as Cristiano Ronaldo just goes, I'm going to win this game now. And just being stood out, going, ah, right, this is. Juventus were two or three kicks away from none of this being an issue, but they ran into dynasties, they ran into one of the best Real Madrid teams of all time. They've been two or three times from figuring this all out and being regarded in the same way that we talk about modern Real Madrid or in the same way that we talk about modern day Bayern Munich. You know, the pre Dortmund wobble and the pre Leverkusen run, but the ball didn't bounce well for them. And I think Juventus response to defeats in the Champions League, they felt that a little bit more tender than say, Bayern Munich, than say Real Madrid. And their responses to that caused some odd decisions. I mean, if you catch a Juventus fan on the right day, they might tell you they were wrong sacking Pirlo. Unless you probably get Pirlo back. You catch them on the wrong day and they'll say various other things about them. So this is the thing about. We talk about recruitment. Recruitment relies on so many, so many different factors. Not just were they good at the other players, but also their capability to be good here. I mean, I think I find it fascinating that Max has just brought up how Cellini, who's working in a financial position at Juventus right now, could be moved into a technical role or fans are asking him to be in a technical role. As far as I know, Cellini is in a financial position because that's his Degree. That's what he's got his masters in. That's what he studied, right. That was his plan B throughout all of his footballing career. And while, yes, he might be able to tell you some of the intricacies of being a Juventus player that no one else in the technical team can do, that shouldn't be a speciality. If we look at the Serie A table right now, I mean, I'm looking at AC Milan's place in the table. How AC Milan have gone from winning a league title in. In, I want to say, 1920. Please forgive me if I've got that year wrong. AC Milan have won a league title not too recently, only now they're in, they look they won't finish in European places. And yet. And there's this very weird role Ibrahimovic has where, depending on who you ask, he's either incredibly important, a technical role or it's an ambassadorial role as well. There is a. I think Italian football is having a move from the old school manager who was in charge of everything, and moving more to. To a style where you have a sporting director, you have a president and you have a head coach that fits within that structure. However, getting that fit can be unstable because a lot of it, or someone told me, when you have a gentleman's agreement, it's very important that everyone involved is a gentleman. Or when you have a gentleman's agreement, is very important that everyone involved likes each other. And like Max said, right, the last three years under Allenquiry, it was quite unstable. If you look at the celebrations from their copper Italia win, Max Allegri is telling higher ups to get off the field because they don't want to be involved. He doesn't want them to share some of the celebrations that Juventus will have. Juventus right now feel like they could all probably the higher ups, the manager, whoever you want to get to, they could all probably go for a nice bit of team building session and try and figure out what on earth they want to do. Right, let's go take them out for a barbecue, go bowling together, nice lunch.

[Max Caligari]

It's funny, right before we move on, Max, we actually haven't spoken about something you brought up earlier is financials. And look, Juve still don't have a main shirt sponsor, which is baffling for me for a club of this stature and a club of this heritage and potentially a club in my head that has got global appeal. What's going on with this deal? Why do they not have a shirt sponsor right now?

[Karl Anka]

So the story is that until last season, they had an agreement with Jeep, the. The brand which is part of Exor, which is the holding company of the family, 45 million euros per year. Then EXER decided that Jeep didn't continue to be the sponsor, the. The sh. Sponsor of Juventus. They tried to find out some new brand. They were very close to an agreement with ITA Airways, which is the national airway company, but the Italian government stopped the deal because they said they considered that it wasn't the good choice for a national company to be connected with a football club. And then this. The world talks about 30 million per year for that deal. And then rumors said that there were some proposal from other brands for 20 million euros per year, 25 million euros per year. But Juventus didn't find or didn't want to find the agreement with these brands, I think. And I suppose they don't want to sell out their brand. So they want to keep a high level with the sponsor too, because they are trying to expand their brand, as Carl is saying. And said, as other Italian clubs also abroad, also in the United States market, for example, with a lot of agreements and collaboration with cooperation with social media influencer in the United States in the music sector. So in order to expand their brand there and to maintain a high level. But the key is that you can maintain or you can have a higher level with your brand if you have a higher level on the pitch. Manchester United is still a great brand because they have a so, so big history, but also the history if you don't win for a lot of years, it's not enough.

[Max Caligari]

Yeah, yeah. And just want to finish on this before we go. And I think it's more of a broader question about the brand of Serie A is where are we now? And please, Carl, after. I'm going to go to Max first, but please jump in after. Is that for me from outside looking in, I'm excited by what I'm watching in terms of the fluctuation of the people who are winning Serie at the moment. I think it's three different teams in the last four seasons, but also this season's fascinating Napoli into Atalanta Roma resurgence. Ranieri coming back. There's some really interesting storylines here, which I'm really fascinated by. But also if you look at the style of football Atalanta are playing, you look at the style of football Napoli are playing, it's really exciting stuff. And I'm really thinking, Max, from your perspective, where do you think the brand is in terms of Europe's top leagues and excitement as well, you've got obviously La Liga, you've got the Premier League. Where do you think Serie A is right now?

[Karl Anka]

I think that Premier League is too far for everybody. La Liga is far on a technical issue. On style of play, very, very good and more, more entertaining to watch all the games of the lower league teams in my opinion. I commentated the La Liga for many years and I enjoyed also commentating games like Beta, Sevilla, Villarreal, Real, Sociedad, Girona. The style of play is very, very high. Bundesliga is very, very interesting because of the speed of the play and the infrastructure. The stadiums are fantastic, as in England, as in Spain, because many, many clubs are rebuilding their stadium. This is the most, the most important issue for us. The stadiums, the visual, the image you have, the framing you have when you see an Italian stadium except Juventus Stadium, Udinese Stadium, Atalanta Stadium, the others, San sir, okay, because of a history, but too far from English stadiums. So I think Premier League, Liga Bundesliga and Serie A, on a technical issue and level we are there, but as a brand, as the image, the framing we export, we are in a lower level.

[IO Akamolere]

Yeah, I think, I think Max is right. First of all, I do have to correct myself. The 1920 season was won by Juventus. AC Milan won it in 21. AC Milan won it.

[Max Caligari]

Very good. We'll allow you that. We'll allow you that before the comment.

[IO Akamolere]

Section eats me alive. Sorry, sorry. I think Max has raised a really interesting point in the Premier League is. Yeah, the Premier League is a big global brand. I think one of the advantages the Premier League have over La Liga, Bundesliga and Serie A, I mean it's English speaking market first. So while Serie A has done very good work particularly in the United States, to integrate itself in United States soccer coverage as well, there is a degree of translation that is occurring there. So you're not quite getting the, the full feel and the vibe of Serie A football without having to go through a little bit of work. I think it's quite interesting that Serie A has taken follow the lead from La Liga. So we are now seeing copper tallies being held in Saudi Arabia as well, which is an interesting financial decision by both leagues there. And also, I mean Juventus, I keep bringing up Juventus were probably one of the first clubs in Italy to go nets become a lifestyle brand and really push things. So the change in the badge, I believe the one of the kits where they did away with the stripes and it was one big block of black and one big block of white, which was much. It wasn't to the. To the traditional legacy fans, shall we.

[Max Caligari]

Say pink in it as well? I can't remember.

[IO Akamolere]

It was a red, little red stripe as well. So they've definitely, they've definitely made attempts at increasing their brand and increasing their global reach. But ultimately I think the good thing and the thing that Serie A has in its favor that La Liga doesn't have or, and I don't even think the Premier League has at this point in time is genuine title races. The last three title races have been phenomenal and we're talking right now Inter Milan are top of the table. But this is not. This is probably the weaker Inter Milan team. They're not as strong as what they've been in into with three seasons previous. I think Napoli have bounced back in a way that has surprised some. Betting against Antonio Conte when he only has one game a week. Difficult is there as well, but also seeing a resurgent Roma. Roma coming from their sort of post. Claudio Ramire being able to fix Roma after what was left by Jose Mourinho is. Is quite funny. Florentina doing what they're currently doing and even, even teams perhaps not necessarily going for the title, but Udinese play some very, very interesting football there as well. So if you're listening to this or watching this and you're very much like a Premier League watcher, first, if you do spot a Serie A game on the weekend, I highly recommend it. Musouokuanga, the fantastic author and poet has been saying for years, you should always be watching Atalanta. And I heartily recommend that too. Anytime Atalanta are playing Champions League and I'm at a loose end, I'm watching them because the way they play football is just a joy to watch. So yeah, Serie A, it's a great viewing experience. And I think while they are behind the Premier League and La Liga at the moment in terms of global reach, I think the longer these title races continue, the better.

[Karl Anka]

I saw some tears in your eyes when saying Jose. You miss him.

[Max Caligari]

Well, with all the stuff that's going on in Turkey now, I do not miss him at all.

[IO Akamolere]

One of a kind.

[Max Caligari]

Less drama in my life. Gentlemen, let's leave it there. Honestly, I really appreciate your time. Max, thank you so much for joining us. From Israel, Italy, Carl, thank you so much for your time and also thank you guys for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.

[Karl Anka]

The Athletic FC podcast network.