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- [00:01]
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- [02:53]
Ayo Akimolere
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimol. The AFCON final lineup is set. 2021 winners Senegal versus hosts Morocco. But what does defeat in the last four mean for both Nigeria and Mohamed Salah's Egypt? Right, joining us now from Morocco, we've got Simon Hughes. You've also got Jay Harris. Or should I address you as a fellow Nigerian, Jay?
- [03:25]
Jay Harris
Well, as you sort of highlighted, yes, I've been adopted by the Nigerian press out here, so my passport's pending. Unfortunately, I won't be in the final with you on Sunday.
- [03:35]
Ayo Akimolere
It's fine. Listen to this.
- [03:39]
Jay Harris
African, bro. I'm Caribbean, bro. Come on, man.
- [03:42]
Simon Hughes
He's Nigerian now.
- [03:43]
Jay Harris
Barbados. Barbados. You're Nigerian now. Come, man. You're Nigerian now. If you. If you will accept me. I'm Nigerian, yeah.
- [03:51]
Ayo Akimolere
I christen you Olua Harris. All right, jets, let's get into the football both semi finals now. Done. I guess it's. It's not really been a tournament of many upsets. Very different to the I've coast tournament in many respects. Simon. Let's start with Senegal's win over Egypt. Mane triumphing over former Liverpool teammate Mohamed Salah once again. Now, a lot has been written about a rivalry between both. I didn't think there was, but can you explain a bit more about that?
- [04:20]
Simon Hughes
How long have we got? Right, okay. So the relationship and the sense of rivalry was, was born pretty much straight away between the pair of them when, when Salah signed for Liverpool. Salah, let's not forget, usurped Mane as the most expensive African footballer for Liverpool. And his arrival meant he shifted positions. So that alone creates some sense of, you know, competition between the pair of them at the very least. I mean, over the years they judged their own achievements against one another. I mean, let's face it, they're born in the same year. They coming up through the same systems of your life. They've both come from the countryside, they practice the same religion, they come from the same same continent, they drive the same interest, they're playing for the same club team. And all of this sort of creates a level of spice between them. I mean, we witnessed it sort of blow up really at Burnley in 2019 when Mane was really unhappy because Salah didn't pass to him. Now this is a thing in the media. It's like it was a thing. It was definitely a thing, but it was the sort of thing that at Liverpool, I would Argue actually helped propel the team to greater triumphs, really. So, you know, I think in the last couple of years, since obviously they haven't been teammates and they haven't really played each other, maybe the edge has disappeared. But there was some interesting moments in the game last night, like when Mane dispossessed Salah and Salah chased after him, chopped him down. There was a big skirmish between the players and the benches. So it sort of shows you a little bit. You know, Salah was not having that. He wasn't like, I'm not having this guy taking the ball off me, you know. You know, he gets criticized for not chasing back and he, you know, he's pretty determined on that occasion.
- [06:01]
Jay Harris
Yeah.
- [06:02]
Ayo Akimolere
I've got to say, Mane does have one AFCON trophy. Salah still has none. Jay, let's talk about Senegal's journey through Afcon. Con been really steady, actually, all the way through, and many did tip them to get to the final. I don't know if many have tipped them to win it, but at least to the final feels like expectation is actually justified.
- [06:21]
Jay Harris
They've been performing at a consistently high level over the last few years. As you mentioned, they won the competition in 2021. Yes, it was a little bit of a surprise when they got knocked out in 2023 by the host Ivory coast, but we all know that there was some magic in Ivory coast quest to win that tournament in Abidjan. They played really well when they've come up against England over the last couple of years, you know, they've cons reaching the. The World Cup. So I think just the experience that this generation's been able to maintain and sort of gain over the last few years has really helped them out. I've not been able to watch a lot of their games at this competition. I've not seen them live, for example. But one thing which really impressed me last night was even though they were having a little difficulty breaking Egypt down and generating chances, they just completely nullified Egypt's threat on the counter. I think it was Malik Juf, who's often just 5, 10 yards ahead of Mohamed Salah or Omar Ahmauch anytime the ball was knocked further forward. And so I just think that ability to. To really suffocate Egypt stood out for me. It's going to be a very, very different challenge coming up against this Morocco side, but there's a lot of talent and the. The only sort of concern for Senegal is Khalidi Kulabai's suspended again and Khabib Diar is Suspended. So how do they cope without those two players? Will be interesting to see.
- [07:34]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. Simon, I did mention no AFCON trophy for Salah under the Egyptian setup. We talk about legacy and he's already had four goals in this tournament so far. Mo Salah feels like he's firing at AFCON at least, but I don't know. I had this chat with JJ Okocha in the studio while we were doing some of the match day stuff, and I asked him the same question. Will him not winning AFCON tarnish his legacy? JJ was like, I mean, this is like one of the most decorated players in the world, period, I guess, on a national level. Does it still have that kind of like, he's great, but he still hasn't won afcon?
- [08:08]
Simon Hughes
They're almost two separate conversations, I think with time. Egyptians now acknowledge that Mohamed Salah is the greatest Egyptian footballer of all time. He has to be. Look at what he's done, what he's done in European football. He's won everything there is to win on a consistent basis over such a long period of time. There can be no debate, really. But it's a different conversation. If you ask who is the greatest Egyptian to play for the national team and represent the colours, that's a different conversation. Now, Saleh is perfectly justified to point out that his goals have helped send Egypt to two World Cups, which, you know, before 2018, Egypt had qualified for one World cup in 1990 and then another one, I think, in, you know, at the very beginning of the tournament. So that is important. But Egyptians really measure themselves by the success in AFCON and Salah. Well, Salah's career started just at the end of a really successful period for Egypt where they won three AFCONs in a row. And he's measured really against that, which, it's the reality of it. But it might be a little bit unfair in some ways because as Salah was coming through, there was huge political social turmoil in the country. It really disrupted, well, the involvement and the performance of the national team for some periods. So they were starting from a much lower base went when he. When he came in. They've since got very close, but they just haven't quite got there. And I do think sometimes, you know, it's, it's. I would compare the arguments similar to, you know, to Lionel Messi before he. He won the cop in America in 2021 with, with Argentina and then followed that up with winning the World Cup. You know, there's no doubt that Lionel Messi is the greatest player of all Time, in my view. I mean, maybe there's a, there's a. There's some sort of recency bias going on there. But had he not won a cop America, had he not won a World cup, would that still count against him? Well, yes, it would because that's the way history works. That's what people say. But it certainly needed a coat. The right coach to come along with the right plan to unlock Messi's abilities and get players around him to create the space where he could actually really affect the game. I don't think that's really happened with Egypt. I think we've seen a different Mohamed Salah in this tournament where in previous tournaments he's tried to do everything by himself to, to the detriment of his own performance. And on this occasion, I think he's got a few better players around him. But I just thought last night Jay touched on the Senegal defensive strategy, which I did think where. But Egypt just didn't get players up the pitch enough or close enough to Salah for him to affect the game. And Messi has shown in the past that no matter how good you are, you do need teammates around to create the space for you to be effective. And I just don't think the Egypt got that balance right. So until they do that, I mean, it's times running out for Salah now, unfortunately, there's probably going to be one, maybe two more AFCONs depending on how he feels. I mean, there's all sorts of talk on online this morning about whether Salah will continue. I can't. He doesn't strike me the sort of character just walk away. So let's see. I mean, I think this was a really good opportunity for Egypt because the camp had been great for the first time in Salah's involvement really, whether AFCON or World Cup. You know, speaking to people there, I went down to the camp in Tagazutna Agadir and it was really professional, you know, exactly as Salah would have wanted it, but they just didn't. They just didn't show up against Senegal, really. I don't think even Senegal were that great, to be honest. It was a game that was there for the taking and Egypt didn't even look like they were capable of taking it.
- [11:40]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, very quickly. What impact do you think his performance at Afcon might have on his. Well, we hope he's got a career still at Liverpool anyway. I mean, he's had a good Afcon, so hopefully Liverpool are getting a fired up. Mo Salah coming back.
- [11:54]
Simon Hughes
Well, he should go back with more confidence because he's performed better in terms of goals than in any previous afcon. I think his best record previously was two goals. He scored four in this one. You know, they were decisive goals as well. He was very quiet last night. There's no doubt about it. D as Jay said, the left back I thought had a really good game, you know, big, physical. Salah couldn't get past him on the, on the few occasions where the ball did get released to him. But you know, Salah a couple of weeks ago, I think it was after one of the group games said we're not amongst the favorites and I think Egyptians, to be fair, largely accepted that position. I think semi final was a good performance but. And it was a decent tournament for Salah. But is decent. Is decent good enough for Mohamed Salah? I suspect not. He'll definitely go back to Liverpool with a, you know, with a renewed sense of, of confidence anyway and I think that that's a good thing for Liverpool. Liverpool needs him. You know, they run out. Running out of attacking options at the moment.
- [12:49]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, for sure. All right, Jay, I'm looking at the final, Senegal and Morocco and I'm wondering if there's a correlation here between two countries that have actually invested really well when it comes to the youth system and infrastructure. You know, you look at Senegal's youth system, privately funded people like Mets, people like PSG are in there also you look a bit further down and they've really thought about this youth league system and obviously Morocco, we've seen the under 20s doing really well. First ever World cup win this year. I mean, is that a fair assessment?
- [13:18]
Jay Harris
Yeah, definitely. And funny enough, spoiler alert. One of the pieces I'm hopefully going to run at the end of the tournament and is when will an African country win the World Cup? And something which William Trustecong who, who we've spoken to before, former Nigeria captain mentioned when I asked him about this many, many months ago, he pointed out Morocco's investment in their infrastructure over a sustained period of time. So it's not really a fluke that both of these teams have got there. It's the product of long term planning, basically. It's going to be really interesting to see who comes out on top. I'm sure we'll touch on it in a minute. But the way Senegal handled the Moroccan crowd is going to be crucial and the way they unsettle Morocco is going to be important because I don't think Nigeria ever did that. Sorry to bring it.
- [14:00]
Ayo Akimolere
It's all Right, man, I'm over it.
- [14:01]
Jay Harris
I'm over it.
- [14:02]
Ayo Akimolere
All the tears have been shed, man.
- [14:03]
Jay Harris
But I think many people at the beginning of the tournament thought if you put all the AFCON traditional drama to the side, because we know how often it delivers shocks, people would have expected a Senegal vs. Morocco final, and that's what we've ended up with. They are probably the two best teams over the last four or five years. Two best African sides over the last five years. So it will be good to see them go head to head.
- [14:25]
Simon Hughes
I do think what we're seeing now is the federations that get it right are the teams that win or the teams that go the furthest. There are exceptions to that, of course. I mean, I'm sure we'll get into Nigeria, but bit of a mess. Same with Ghana, Senegal. Over a long period of time, I've been getting it right. You look right through the youth levels. You know, all the junior teams are doing really well. They play a similar way. Very clear identity. Exactly the same with Morocco. The countries that are getting it right with. With slightly more money are performing better. I mean, Egypt played Senegal yesterday. The population of Cairo is bigger than Senegal. But again, this is mitigation for somebody like Mohamed Saleh. You know, I think for a long time, the federation in Egypt, it's not known as one of the more dynamic ones. It feels like actually that they're reacting to Saleh and his. His understanding of, you know, what it takes to. To reach the top and responding to it. You know, they've made sure that the camp in Agadir really professional, all the things that the players need to actually achieve. That's just the start. No, that. That's just the starting point. The basics. So, yeah, these two countries are in the final, are certainly leading the way and showing the rest of the continent what can happen if you make things joined up.
- [15:42]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, well, let's move on. Let's talk about the second semi final, reluctantly, as Morocco beat Nigeria.
- [15:50]
Simon Hughes
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- [16:26]
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- [16:59]
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- [17:34]
Jay Harris
Yousef Anasiri With Morocco on the brink.
- [17:40]
Simon Hughes
And in the final, Rabat is a sea of red.
- [17:46]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, well, host Morocco held out the tournament's top scorers, Nigeria to make it to Sunday's final. Jay, you were in Rabat. I was watching it in London as also watching the Arsenal vs Chelsea on another screen just to make sure I got all my football covered. I mean, what did you make of the semi final?
- [18:02]
Jay Harris
It was a really tight game which obviously just comes down to penalties. I actually didn't appreciate until I dug into the stats after the game. But there's so much focus on how good Morocco are going forward with Erzelzouli, Zaibari, El Kabi, Brahim. They actually completely nullified Nigeria's threat. Nigeria only had two shots and 11 touches in Morocco's box and they'd scored 14 goals in their previous five games. Lookman, who'd been after Brahim or alongside Brahim, probably the best player this tournament I thought had a really, really bad game. Victor Osimhen didn't do much and they just really struggled to get things clicking. There was one moment in the first half where Lutman did have a shot on goal and it was. It's the only sort of example I can think of where Nigeria sort of baited Morocco's press and managed to play through them. They just completely struggled and obviously the fans play a huge role in this. And I'll touch on what I saw after the game in a Minute. But one thing that I've written about which really took me by surprise is the Moroccan support never got frustrated once. Which to me I was thinking if I was watching England and it was nil, nil in the 80th minute of a Euro semi final, you would feel the tension significantly from the crowd. But I'm looking at, and these, these fans, it's not just the ultras, it's the entire stadium are jumping up and down and singing. When it's nil, nil on the 80th minute, I'm nervous and I don't support either of those teams. It might be Oliver Harris, but at the end of the day, like you're.
- [19:36]
Ayo Akimolere
Not Nigerian enough, bro.
- [19:37]
Jay Harris
At the end of the day I'll go back to supporting England and Barbados. But I was just thinking that it really took me by surprise. So we shouldn't discount the fact that playing in front of that home crowd, I think they're unbeaten in a long, long time at that stadium, is going to be a massive factor in the final. But Nigeria, I was just disappointed that yet again, for the third year in a row, the Afcon 23 final, which was held in 24, the World cup playoffs back in November and now this, they just can't seem to get over the final hurdle in these big games.
- [20:05]
Simon Hughes
It's just interesting what Jay said there, because I was in Tangier in a cafe last night and people were getting quite nervous and frustrated in that, in that cafe. But I touched on it in one of the articles at the beginning of the tournament about the hosting of the games in Rabat as opposed to Casablanca. Very deliberate decision by, by the Moroccan FA to sort of pull away from the big center of Moroccan football in Casablanca, where people get very excited about the football. Rabas is more of the political center, really. It is the capital, it's the administrative centre. You know, it's attracted more of a sort of a, I would say a middle class attendees at the stadium. Now that can help Morocco as it seems to have done last night. I'm sure there were, you know, some proper, you know, big football groups of people there, but it can also sort of go the other way as well, can't it, whereby people are a little bit calmer about what they're expecting to see. I was quite surprised actually by just how relentless Morocco were. I mean, they didn't create a lot of chances, but they stuck at it. You know, they really did stick at it and put Nigeria under a huge amount of pressure. I mean, I was really impressed by The Nigerian defensive performance under that level of pressure, just Morocco was so dominant. But as Jay said earlier, I do think that Senegal represents a very different challenge. I can't see them just sitting back. They'll want to have a fair amount of the ball themselves because that's what they've done in this tournament and it's worked for them. So it'll be a totally different final.
- [21:28]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. Walid Regragi, coming up into this tournament, I think faced a little bit of criticism. And in fairness to him, I mean, the pressure on his shoulders coming into this, it was phenomenal. Obviously, Morocco are the highest ranked African team in the FIFA rankings right now. First African team to get to a semi final in a World Cup. But you got to say, I mean, dragging his team to the final has to. You can't underestimate that side because, Mark, I haven't won this competition since the 70s.
- [21:55]
Simon Hughes
Well, it's going to be 50 years, you know, this year. So that's an enormous history to take on. And I remember ahead of the first game a month ago now, and Ragwagi was. Was very clear on what he expected in this tournament. I think because Morocco got to the semi final, the World cup, you know, the expectations just went through the roof. You know, Morocco's investors, a huge amount of money in football, lots of attention. You know, it is sport. And suddenly people were thinking, well, we simply have to win the next afcon. You know, it's a home tournament. But he said, look, you know, football doesn't work like that, that they're going to be games where we struggle to get over the line. That's the way it is in tournament football. It never. I've never seen a team that's gone into a tournament and just won one one convincingly all the way through it. Tournaments are hard to win. And I have been impressed by him. I mean, he's an interesting character because I do sort of sense he's having himself a little bit as well. You know, he sort of. He's like, you know, you've got to respect me a little bit more. You know, I'm. Who got you to the World cup semi final. You were nowhere really before I came, you know, quite within his rights to remind people of what he's actually achieved. But, yeah, I mean, I think in the tournaments he's shown that. I know he's sort of a bit more of a conservative. Well, this is the thing, isn't it? It's difficult because Morocco went into the World cup and they had to play a certain way to get results in this competition when the expectation is that they win, that people want to see a bit more expression. They do have the players to do that. But I do think that that Ragwagi has got the tone right in near enough every game so far. They could have created a little bit more against Nigeria, but I think Nigeria felt that pressure throughout. Certainly hold the second half when I was watching and I think he's got his substitutions right at certain points in the tournament as well. That's what it can come down to sometimes. People talk about tactics all the time, I understand that. But just getting your subs right and I think he gets his subs right and you know, it's a good trait to have as a coach.
- [23:48]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, I mean I want to talk about Nigeria. Oluwa Harris very quickly. No World cup qualification out in the semifinals of afcon. This is a star studded team. We've seen moments in this competition where Osimhen clearly showed a bit of attitude against I think it was Mozambique. We've seen moments in this competition where players said they might go on strike or not turn up for training because they hadn't been paid bonuses. Once again, as we saw in World cup qualification once more, is this yet another compounding issue for the Super Eagles that you know what, when stuff's not going well behind the scenes, stuff on the field might not also be going.
- [24:24]
Jay Harris
Well once again I actually think this is maybe the exception to the rule. I really think you can pin the failure to qualify for the World cup on just the chaos in the two years that preceded it. I think they had three different permanent head coaches during World cup qualifying and certainly in the beginning under Fernidy George when they drew a couple of games that, that that's what cost them. You know you can lose any game on penalty shootouts. At the end of the day, they've been knocked out of the last four of this AFCON and the final of the last AFCON by the hosts on both occasions. It's really difficult. I think I'm a little bit disappointed that the team didn't learn how to cope with hostile conditions. You know, they came up against 60, 70,000 fans in Abidjan. They should have sort of understood how to game manage a little bit better for this, this occasion. I actually have been quite impressed with the head coach Eric Scheller at this tournament because I did think Nigeria might crash and burn because the World cup player final defeat to Dr. Congo was I think 60 days ago. Like it's still very Fresh Lookman said at one point in this tournament, the pain from losing that game's never going to go away. And I thought it'd be a real hangover for them. But Shell has done particularly well to, to to land on this diamond formation and to get Lookman more involved. But the one thing I just noticed before we started recording, which I think is quite damning on how, you know, Simon mentioned a minute ago, Reg Wagwi is very good with his substitutions. Bruno Onyomachi is the only player who took a penalty for Nigeria against Dr. Congo and against Morocco last night. Now, to me, that just smacks of not having a proper plan in place. You know, Lutman didn't take a penalty last night. Awobi didn't take a penalty last night. Senior players who are particularly good on the ball, who are offensive players you think would would be involved. Chukwezi, his only touch of the game because he came on the 120th minute was to have his penalty saved. And I just think that Shella's game management in those tight situations probably needs to be improved if he stays on because I believe the next AFCON's in 18 months. But whether he gets given that time, who knows?
- [26:19]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, that's my big question. Do you think he's earned the right to carry on as Nigerian head coach?
- [26:24]
Jay Harris
I think so, because if you look at his record since he joined in January last year, it's actually exceptionally good. I don't think he's lost a game. You know, Dia Congo and Morocco are both on penalties. Very tight margins like this. Area for areas for improvement. As I just pointed out, it would just come down to the nff, the Nigerian Football Federation.
- [26:44]
Ayo Akimolere
And we know how interesting they are as an organization for sure and whether.
- [26:47]
Jay Harris
They believe they need a head on a stick to someone to just blame. So I think it just comes down to that. But I actually think the way Shedder has and Shedda can be prickly at times with the media, but I actually think off camera he can be quite funny and jovial and someone who's close to the dressing room described him to me as sort of like a big brother to the players. He's a former player himself and I do sort of see little bit more, but in the media he can come across as quite prickly. I think it just comes down to whether the NFF wants somebody to sacrifice or not.
- [27:22]
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- [27:51]
Simon Hughes
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- [27:53]
Ayo Akimolere
Just bring your A game, you bring your AI game.
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Simon Hughes
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Ayo Akimolere
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Jay Harris
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Simon Hughes
Tomorrow Workday, moving business forever forward.
- [28:06]
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- [28:38]
Jay Harris
Today.
- [28:45]
Simon Hughes
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimolere.
- [28:49]
Ayo Akimolere
We've spoken about the semi finals. Let's get more of your reactions on the tournament tournament itself and your experiences in Morocco. Now, Simon, you've written a piece around the group stages of the tournament and you know, you said it's a tournament that's yet to catch the imagination on or off the pitch. Could you explain what you mean by that?
- [29:07]
Simon Hughes
Yeah. So I wrote this article which had quite a lot of pushback just after the group stages at that point. I mean, you touched on it before IO. There were no shocks. Everything just went to plan. You know, Morocco expected to win the tournament. So when you're expected to win, you know, there is very little joy in victory almost, you know, particularly in the early stages when you're sort of building up to this big moment. So you have that and then you've also got the position of Morocco really at the moment. You know, it's a really interesting time to be Moroccan. It's an interesting point in the, in the country's history where football has been pushed right to the front of the of all the things that are important matters to so much, to so many people. And there's been huge investments in it, which increases the pressure around winning and also has led to a fair bit of conversation about how Morocco is allocating its money. You know, we saw protests a couple of months ago at that point, I. I sort of sensed that people were a little bit reluctant to express themselves one way or another, and this was contributing a little bit to sort of the buzz inside the cities. You know, each city that I went to, some days there'd be a match on, and you wouldn't necessarily know that there was a match on in the city. That wasn't the case in the previous afcon, where as soon as you stepped out outside the. You know, the hotel or whatever, you could feel it. You could really feel it. Even if people weren't going to the game, you knew what was going on that day. Again, there's all sorts of distinctions to be made. I mean, you know, Africa's a huge continent with very vastly different countries, different religions. People respond to things very differently, you know, and then you've got the issue of the. The time of year as well, with the weather. You know, the weather, it's being untypically sort of afcon. You're usually associated with relatively warm weather and players struggling to deal with that heat. That. That's a dynamic which causes problems for some teams. And I think one of the reasons why we've seen the big teams do so well is because of that. It's. It sort of leveled everything off and the conditions have been played which are favorable to players who tend to play in Europe, basically. So all these. All this. This mix and pot of. Of themes contributed at that point. I would say to. I don't want to say. Don't want to say apathy. It wasn't apathy. It was just. There wasn't that buzz. There just wasn't that buzz that we've seen in previous AFCONs. I think Morocco as well, now, it's positioned itself as a host as well. It's hosted quite a lot of big events and tournaments over the last few years, and we cannot forget as well that the World Cup's coming here. That, I think, is an even bigger event, and maybe people are sort of conscious of that as well, you know, coming along. So there's a lot of play, and it's difficult to be definitive, I think, because I'm just one person, and I'm just talking about my experience. Things have heated up a little bit the last few weeks, shall we say? You know, we could certainly feel it in Tangier last night. I mean, the whole city exploded when Morocco went through. I expect, you know, Morocco do win. It is going to be a huge outpouring of relief, and, you know, some of the scenes will be incredible. But nevertheless, it still doesn't take away from the way it was a couple of weeks ago.
- [32:16]
Jay Harris
I'll never forget that the day I arrived in Abidjan for the last AFCON was the very same evening that Ivory coast lost their third group stage game. So the entire country thought they were getting knocked out. And then the next evening, because results went in their favor, they managed to get through to the knockout stages. And I think for the rest of that competition, there was such a sense of it's completely and utterly ridiculous that we're even here, that they were just completely overjoyed. I mean, it was farcical. They lost two of their group stage games. They got hammered 4 nil by Equatorial Guinea. They sat their manager, they had absolutely no right to be there. And I think that's part of what fueled the mad celebrations. And as Simon pointed out, and I've had conversations with some colleagues out here, the second you stepped out of your door in Abidjan, you would hear the, the horns blaring, you'd see orange shirts everywhere. And that's not been the case. You know, I went for lunch in the middle of Rabat four or five hours before kickoff. And it's not immediately obvious that there's a big game going on. But for me, the moment Afcon fever, as I described it, caught a light was after Morocco beat Cameroon in the quarter final. And the reason for that is they hadn't even reached the semi final stage since 2004. So it's like, okay, we've taken a huge psychological step forward here. Yes, we've done well in the World cup, but our, our track record in AFCON has been poor for, for two decades. So the last time they, they reached the final, Walida Regragui was a 28 year old right back who was playing for them. But I was at the game last night and I went into Rabat afterwards because my hotel's near the train station. And this happened after the quarter final game. It didn't happen before any of the games before then. Certainly not what I saw. Door people are hanging out the roofs of cars, people are waving flags everywhere. There are kids running around in the street at 3am in the morning, kicking water bottles around and trying to score goals, etc. It's just like as every, every step they get closer to winning this competition, every step they've taken closer towards the final, the excitement has just jumped up a level. I think when you put that much pressure on yourself to win the tournament, you sometimes struggle to enjoy it. And I've also seen that from the players, because, don't get me wrong, they were running around and sliding on the pitch at full time. Barely any of them stopped to speak to the media after the game. I remember when Nigeria beat Algeria, they were coming out with a speaker, they were blaring music. Whereas I've always felt like Morocco, it's just a bit more businesslike. It's a bit like we've expected to win. Their nation expects us to win. We're in the final, as we should be. That's how the entire tournament's felt to me. They're just utterly convinced from minute one of the opening game that they were going to win.
- [34:49]
Ayo Akimolere
Sime, I don't know what it feels like on the ground. I'm going to be flying to Morocco on Saturday just to get a feel of things for the final, but I don't know if the right word is corporate, but it does feel quite corporate with these incredibly beautiful stadiums. And if I'm honest, not all the stadiums are totally full, but I just keep seeing cameras padding up to all these leaders, sort of just sitting there watching the game. It just feels very, dare I say it, very FIFA.
- [35:17]
Simon Hughes
Well, in the offending article, IO, I described Ivory coast as being like Glastonbury and this being a bit more like the World Economic Forum, you know, And I stand by that, really. I mean, the stadiums are incredible. The FIFA delegates, you get this guy Matthias Grafstrom, who has appeared from the back to be the big talker from FIFA about what a great place Morocco is, which it is. I mean, the warmth of the people, I've got to say, the welcome that you get here is fantastic. People are very friendly. People want to help you out. They are very proud. I mean, Morocco is a very proud country, but the stadiums, as beautiful as some of them are, I think one of the things that sort of played against it as well. I remember that the previous afcon and, you know, generally, you know, football elsewhere in other parts of the world, around the stadium, you get the party and the people gathering, the security around these stadiums. I've never seen anything like it. And I can understand why it's happened, because let's never forget what happened in Cameroon four years ago where there was a stadium crush which owed much to the lack of planning by the authorities, the local planning committee in Cameroon, and I would argue caf and their determination to get that tournament on. Not everything was thought through and it contributed towards deaths at that stadium. So caf, Morocco is. Is very, very determined to make sure that doesn't happen again, quite rightly, but there's, like, some of the stadiums, there's eight levels of security to get through before you even get to the gates. Honestly, I'm not exaggerating it. So there isn't that buzz outside the stadium. I was being asked by my editors, oh, can you get some photographs and, and some. Some video footage of the fans partying? You can't. It's like, you can't really see it. So by the. It's a bit of an ordeal to just actually get into the ground in some of the. Certainly in some of the. The. Some of the stadiums. So I think that's contributed towards it. I'm fed into this, like, increased sense of professionalism, which. Which is good to some extent, but I just wonder whether it's. It's gone a little bit too far. The conversation about FIFA is. Is key here because there's a feeling in Africa that. That FIFA are playing too much of a role in caf, which is something I've actually written about, which will be published over the next couple of days. Is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? Should it be happening? All these. All these issues? Yes, the stadiums are great. The infrastructure here in Morocco is great. The train services. Come on. United Kingdom need to take notes. They should come to Morocco.
- [37:46]
Jay Harris
Look.
- [37:47]
Simon Hughes
Look at how efficient they are. Really, really, really good. But it doesn't necessarily mean that everything's great. There are certain lessons I still think that the Morocco FIFA can learn from this tournament very quickly.
- [37:59]
Ayo Akimolere
Jay, I'm just thinking about what we're talking about, this sort of corporate nature of it, but also I wonder from a journalistic perspective how hard it has been to find those stories. Because if you think about. About the AFCON in the Ivory coast, you're looking at Ensue, Equatorial guinea, top scorer. Beautiful, wonderful story. Cape Verde beating Ghana, you know, beautiful story. I mean, you look at the top scorers this time around. Brahim Diaz, Victor Osimhen, Mohamed Salah, you know, very household names, names that everyone knows. Do you know what I mean? Like, do you have to dig a bit deeper this time around?
- [38:30]
Jay Harris
Not necessarily. I think after the group stage, there were other storylines which sort of emerged and we shouldn't forget. Yes, Brahim is someone that. That most of the world have known about for a long time because he's been at Man City, Real Madrid. This is still his tournament debut. It's still a massive moment for him. He was capped by Spain, I think, in 2021. So actually, to make that switch and be starring at AFCON is is a significant moment for him and, and for Morocco. The week the tournament started to kick off for me was when South Africa were eliminated by Cameroon. And the reason for that is because Hugo Bruce, South Africa's head coach, was just firing shots at, at Morocco in his pre match press conference and he'd made, I think we discussed it before, distasteful comments about one of his own players before the tournament. And it felt like he was the villain in this game against Cameroon because the Moroccan fans were just booing him every time he appeared on the screen. Then you had what should have been a routine 4:0 victory for Nigeria over Mozambique. Osimhen and Lukman start kicking off with each other. I was at the Nigeria Algeria game where Algeria just confronted the referee. After the game I was at Morocco, Cameroon. It's just come out last night that caf have. I think they banned Samuelto, the Cameroon president for four games and find him because of an inc that happened after the Cameroon Morocco game, which caf were also investigating. So you did suddenly get all these big moments of drama. I don't think we ever got a shock result in this tournament, which is a shame. But there was enough going on, on and off the pitch to sort of spark it into life which, which really caught my attention.
- [39:58]
Ayo Akimolere
Simon, let's look ahead to the World Cup. Obviously Morocco got to the semi finals in Qatar. Teams like Algeria, Egypt, Cote d', Ivoire, South Africa, Tunisia, Senegal, Ghana, Cape Verge. I mean, they're all going to the World Cup, Morocco as well. How do you think, think African teams are going to fare this time around in the World Cup?
- [40:16]
Simon Hughes
I don't think he can look beyond Morocco and Senegal as the, as the nations that can, you know, make a real mark at that competition, to be honest. You know, Morocco in a really interesting group, aren't he, with Brazil, Scotland and Haiti. You know, I was speaking to a journalist with Scottish roots, shall we say, last night and he actually thinks Scotland can beat Morocco potentially.
- [40:38]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay.
- [40:39]
Simon Hughes
It's quite. Yeah, well, that's going to be an interesting.
- [40:41]
Ayo Akimolere
It will be a really semi finalist, potential AFCON trophy winners.
- [40:46]
Jay Harris
It will be.
- [40:46]
Simon Hughes
I mean that'll be the deciding game in that group, won't it? I guess in terms of who goes through. And Senegal, they're very experienced in major competition now, so I expect them both to have a right go. I haven't really seen much from any of the other nations that you mentioned to think they're going to have a real go. But then World cup history is filled with stories of African nations who have come from nowhere and suddenly they just get a bit of confidence, get a bit of momentum and you know, they make a mark on the competition. I mean, to some extent Nigeria have done that in this competition because of all the reasons that Jay outlined earlier. Nobody really thought, you know, after what had happened, they were on such a low point not qualifying for the World cup, but they managed to pick themselves up and you know, it was very small margins last night. So that could happen with another nation. I mean, before the World Cup. There's all sorts of talk at the moment about nations changing the coaches as well. That's another thing that really could prove to be important. I mean, let's just say this Morocco, if they don't win, if they lose on Sunday to Senegal, do they keep the coach? That is the big question. And where does that leave them as well for the World Cup? Because there's, you know, there was quite a significant movement to get rid of the coach. You know, all sorts of names being mentioned, you know, some of the younger, the coaches at the younger levels who've done really well. How does that affect that team? So there's a lot I think that can change before the World cup starts in a few months time.
- [42:09]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, very quickly gents, who's taking this one? Jay, I'll start with you. I mean two stacked teams. Two teams with African player of the year Senegal with Sadio Mane Hakimi obviously in Morocco, but also two teams with African coaches as well. There's a lot of progress to be celebrated here. But who's actually taking. Who's this trophy? Who's wing Afcon?
- [42:30]
Jay Harris
I think because I wanted Nigeria to win, it blinded me. But I just, I'm just on, on board the, the Moroccan train now. I think just last night when I was walking through RA just felt, okay, this is inevitable. Senegal will do their best, they'll pose a different type of challenge. But this train has been heading in one direction since the moment the whistle was blown in the opening game. And I just don't know if Senegal will stop them.
- [42:53]
Ayo Akimolere
S I agree.
- [42:54]
Simon Hughes
I think from here Morocco aren't allowed to lose. They just can't. And I think the key, the key element here is that the Senegal are going to be missing two players through suspension. I think that will really count against them. You know, one of them being the captain, the other, they're probably the best performing midfielder the tournament for them. So that's going to hit them hard. I think I wasn't impressed by them at all. In the semi final against Egypt. So they're going to have to perform a lot better. I just think Morocco will have a bit too much for them.
- [43:22]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, fair enough. Let's leave it there, gents. Hopefully I'll be joining you guys in Rabat this weekend for the final of afcon. Really appreciate your contributions as always, jsi, and also thank you guys for joining us as well. Matt Davies Adams will be with you tomorrow to look ahead to the Manchester Derby as well as the rest of the weekend's Premier League action. We'll catch you soon.
- [43:46]
Simon Hughes
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavro and Jay Beal. The executive producer was a morehead to listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic and all the usual places. You'll also find find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe the Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
- [44:22]
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Ayo Akimolere
Oh, you're definitely a groupie.
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Simon Hughes
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