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- [00:04]
Ayo Akimolere
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Paul Taylor
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Dana
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- [02:04]
Podcast Host (Guy Clark or Mike Stabro)
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. Seven games played, five defeats, two draws, no wins. Ant Postecoglou is battling to keep his job at Nottingham Forest. How did things get so bad so soon? All right, with us today we have our Nottingham Forest writer Paul Taylor. We've also got Charlie Eccleshare who covered Postecoglou's time at Spurs. Paul, the stats aren't good so early. Seven games in Postecoglou statistically has the worst start of any forest manager in the Last century. How has it gone wrong so badly so soon?
- [02:47]
Paul Taylor
That stat just sums up, doesn't it? There was a recent press conference where I think there was a few of us who thought about bringing it up and asking him about it, but didn't feel like it would be a nice thing to do to a man who's seven games into his new job.
- [02:59]
Podcast Host (Guy Clark or Mike Stabro)
You mean you didn't have the bravery to put it in so early?
- [03:02]
Paul Taylor
That's probably. Yeah, yeah. Do you know what? I don't want to use the word unlucky, because I don't think it is unlucky. But there have been moments in certain games. Real Betis, they were outstanding in the first half. They could have got a third goal and put that game out of reach. For Betis, that was a small margin that could have seen him get his first win and might have changed the mood a lot. Sunderland, for long periods, they were very poor. But as they fought to try and get their way back into the game, their goalkeeper Ruf made five or six really good saves. Again, I'm not saying for a minute that his start has been good or brilliant or particularly encouraging, but there have been moments where things might have gone differently and he might have got that first win just to settle the nerves a little bit and alter the dynamic and change the mood and however you want to put it, it might have just given him that little landmark moment that he's been waiting for since he took over from Nuno Espirito Santo. So it has been bad, it has been a situation that's left him in peril and fighting to keep his job. But there have been some small moments where things might have been different.
- [04:00]
Podcast Host (Guy Clark or Mike Stabro)
Yeah, I mean, Charlie, you've seen Ange Paul in full flow. Have you been surprised by what you've seen?
- [04:04]
Ayo Akimolere
I'm not that surprised in some ways because he has actually tended to start pretty slowly in most of his jobs. I mean, spurs was actually a big outlier because he started really well. And it was funny because, you know, I'd obviously spoken to lots of people he'd worked with. I looked very closely at how he'd done previously and it had always been slow starts. So I, and Ange himself had been preaching, you know, caution. It's going to take a while. Obviously, they then won eight and drew two of their first 10 games and had this incredible start. But that's the exception rather than the rule. Typically, if you look at a club like Celtic, his job performance four, spurs, similar to what's happening at Forest now. And that Ended up being a big success, but started really slowly. A lot of questions and criticism. So I'm not that surprised he's made us so start. I may be a bit surprised that we'll. Well, I am surprised that, you know, seven games in we're here and we're already speculating quite seriously about his future.
- [04:58]
Podcast Host (Guy Clark or Mike Stabro)
Yeah, I mean, Paul, I mean, you've sort of alluded to it there, sort of how close that Betis game was. But postecoglou's teams, they're not ever dry of chances and Forest have had their chances. Some might say they're just not taking them. But defensively, this is the worrying bit for me. When you watch it. And also set pieces in particular, you would have thought perhaps he'd learned a little bit from his spurs time that actually this was one of the better defensive teams in the Premier League and they sort of aren't anymore.
- [05:24]
Paul Taylor
I think one of Ansha's biggest problems is what came before in two different senses. A, the fact that he's taking over from Nuno Espirito Santo, who was a hugely popular and very successful manager at Nottingham Forest. Normally when a manager, most regularly, when a manager takes over a new job, it's because the previous man has been a failure in some way. In this case, he was taken over from a man who was A, very popular in the dressing room and B, popular on the terraces. He was respected. He'd given them an identity that worked. He got him back into Europe for the first time in 30 years and he had a very specific way of doing things that fans almost took comfort in. You know, they knew they weren't going to concede very many goals. They knew they were going to be defensively organized, they knew they were going to be very difficult to beat and that they could be explosive on the counter attack and probably get a goal or two. Now the change has been so massive in every sense. The entire style of play has changed. That defensive solidity has gone, that sense of organization and comfort has completely gone out the window. And now the style of football is just a bit more or a lot more gung ho. And they've got a manager who's a very different personality. The whole change, I think, has underlined the problems and the fact that Ange arrived with a certain reputation for a collection of criticisms that he'd had at spurs that immediately, in his early weeks, and we are talking about weeks, his earlier weeks in charge at Forest, those criticisms have all come true and have all returned to haunt him at Forest as well. The same problems that hung over him at spurs, the good football not bringing results, the defensive fragility, the weakness from set pieces, they're all there for people to see. All the fears that Forest fans had about Ange Postecoglou and his football are all evident straight away. So he's got to find a way to climb out from under that.
- [07:04]
Ayo Akimolere
That context that you mentioned, Paul, that he's come into at Forest is basically diametrically opposed to the context in which he arrived at spurs, because he came in at spurs, he followed Antonio Conte, hugely unpopular manager who played a brand of football that was perceived by most spurs fans to be negative. Not the Spurs. You know, prior to him there had been Jose Mourinho and actually Nuno. All managers who spurs fans didn't get on with felt were kind of anathema to the principles of the club. And so here was Ange, you know, who was going to play attractive attacking football. And it was kind of like, yeah, let's give this guy a chance. And even just the fact that Ange spoke so well and so positively was in stark contrast to Conte, who'd always given the impression he didn't really want to be there. So it was such an inviting fan base, such a difference to coming in at Forest, replacing a beloved manager, and also having all the baggage now that he does post spurs that he didn't have when he came in to start at Tottenham.
- [07:59]
Podcast Host (Guy Clark or Mike Stabro)
The thing is, last season Forest secured European qualification for the first time in 30 years under Nuno, as you sort of alluded to, Paul, hugely popular manager at Nottingham Forest. I'm just wondering what this change so quick in the season has had on the players. Have we got any feedback as to how they've sort of adapted to Postecoglou's personality, his style of play so soon and so early?
- [08:21]
Paul Taylor
The kind of feeling you get when you talk to people around the dressing room is there's no anti and sentiment, but there is still a lingering pro Nuno, if you like. He wasn't just a manager to a lot of these players. He was like a father figure to some of them. He really had such a strong bond with them in the dressroom. That was his whole remit. He liked to have this sense of togetherness and unity, and I know that's far from unique. I'm sure every manager wants that. But in his case, he was like a father figure to players like Ola, Aina and Murillo and, you know, really put a arm around their shoulders. So the biggest adaption they've got is losing that he's gone. And they're having to adapt to a new man being in his place. And as I say, I don't think there's any anti Ange sentiment, but they're having to adapt to this vast change, a hugely different character, a man who has a hugely different football philosophy. And their whole world's been turned upside down in the space of a few weeks, and I think they're still adjusting to that. I think that's the biggest change for the players is that they're just having to adjust everything that they used to all at once. And in games of football, that's a big thing as well, isn't it? Just that purely, if you look at a football sense, they're trying to adapt to a whole new style of play, and whilst there has been signs that they're capable of it, there's been positive moments. It is a huge adaption to make, particularly at a time when the managers already come in under pressure. That's got to be weighing on their minds as well. So it's going to be interesting to see how this situation unfolds and if there's any way for it to be resolved positively.
- [09:41]
Podcast Host (Guy Clark or Mike Stabro)
Yeah, Charlie, in fairness to Ange, it's not his fault. The situation is the situation. Right. I mean, I could also caveat it and say, look, I mean, he probably hasn't had much time from arriving in the job to his first match with this team. I mean, how quickly can you instill your principles and your thoughts and build up a rapport with those players? I mean, we got to give him that as well. This is still a work in progress where his style and his ideas are being worked on in real time in the Premier League.
- [10:07]
Ayo Akimolere
Completely. And especially when you have such, like, an unusual game model like Ange has. I mean, it's very specific. It will be very different to what any of these players had, especially compared to someone like Nuno. And I do think, you know, if you're the person making these decisions at a club, you do have a responsibility to the players and to the team to not lurch so drastically from one way of playing to another, or if you're going to do that, at least do it during an off season, so you've got a preseason to implement those ideas, and generally you would do that kind of lurch, which we do see happening if the previous version hasn't worked. So there's then far more of a kind of willingness to adapt to something new. It's all very strange to be saying, well, you know that system that worked really well for you last season? Well, now we're going to do the opposite of that. And you need to get on board with that. And in no time at all, with very few training sessions, it's not that much of a surprise. It's taken bit of time for them to get used to it.
- [10:57]
Paul Taylor
I would say. There was a desire from Nuno as well this summer to sort of progress Forest DPL a little bit, to become a team that could keep possession a little bit more, that could force their own will into games and shape games how they wanted them to be, a little bit more. And you saw a very few early shoots of that in the first few games. But I think Ange was appointed because there was a feeling amongst the Forest hierarchy that he would bring a better style of play. It was very much part of the reason he was hired, because they wanted to progress the style of play and become a more attacking team, a team that could dominate games with their own style of play. And predominantly he was hired because they felt he was a winner, which historically he has been. You know, he's won trophies in Australia, Japan, Scotland, and most importantly, he won the Europa League last season, which is what he was ostensibly signed to do at Nottingham Forest. They hired him because they want him to go and win the Europa League this season. Unfortunately, I think the concern will be is that they're also going to get the same kind of performances in the Premier League that saw last season. And that's where he's got to try and change the dynamic a little bit, I think.
- [11:58]
Podcast Host (Guy Clark or Mike Stabro)
Yeah, you say they. I'm thinking Marinakis. Can we have a word about this appointment? And also letting go of a manager that brought so much back to the club. Surely there's a conversation here as to whether or not Marinakis is also at fault if this doesn't work out.
- [12:14]
Paul Taylor
Yeah, well, the key appointment that sort of started all this, that was the catalyst for Nuno's departure was that of Edu as the global head of football across the Maranakis football group. Him and Nuno, for whatever reason, just immediately did not see eye to eye. There was a profound disagreement about the way that the club should move forward about recruitment. Nuno had concerns about not the quality of recruitment, but the speed of recruitment. Just over a year ago, the foundations for Forest's remarkable season when they challenged the Champions League football. Nuno and the players always felt that the preseason training camp in Murcia was a huge, huge part of that. That gave them a chance to bond, to forge a sense of togetherness, to get to know Nuno's style of play more than ever before. Because he was appointed midway through a season, that preseason was the turning point and the catalyst for what followed this summer just gone. Nuno had concerns that I think only two of the new signings had arrived at that point in time to take part in that pre season. Dan Endoy arrived shortly afterwards, but he felt that it was a missed chance to have that same kind of dynamic this time around and to embed the new signings in. So once all that happened, Nuno, let's be honest, probably reacted in a bit of an extreme way. Not just criticizing his owner once, but twice in press conferences. I think once he'd done that. My own personal opinion, and it is just a hunch, is that he was trying to create a him or me situation with Edu, but only he will know that. But either way, the outcome was that he talked his way out of the job and it left Marinakis in a very difficult situation where he suddenly had to find a replacement for Nuno, this manager who had done such a great job in a very short space of time, almost out of nowhere. I'm sure on the list of things that he expected to have to do this summer, finding a new manager would not have been one of them. He'd given him a new contract a few months ago, so I don't think he was planning for a future without yet. That was the very situation he found himself in.
- [14:00]
Podcast Host (Guy Clark or Mike Stabro)
Okay, fantastic. Well, let's move on because we've sort of got to grips with how we got here. Next we'll ask how much Postecoglou is actually helping himself.
- [14:10]
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- [17:16]
Paul Taylor
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- [17:17]
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- [17:36]
Podcast Host (Guy Clark or Mike Stabro)
Well, that was Ange Postecoglou getting a little frustrated with reporters after Forrest's defeat up at Newcastle. Paul, I feel like we've been here before. Ang's press conferences are reviewing on their own. But what are your reactions to that outburst? And more importantly, are you actually surprised?
- [17:52]
Paul Taylor
No, not really surprised. I think we've established some time ago that he's kind of your. He has certain stereotypical Australian Aussie characteristics, doesn't he? He's quite a bullish character as he said himself. He's, he's used to being in a fight and he regards this as being a fight. And why not? I don't necessarily have an issue with that. I think more broadly it has been. How do I say this delicately? It's harder to warn to perhaps for Forest fans than some of the other managers. In his press conferences he's not necessarily taken on board responsibility perhaps for the way things have started. He's very bullish and just talks about how things are going to turn around and I think that's fair enough. If you're going to try and convey that message in the dressing room, why don't you convey it in public as well? But yeah, these press conferences are certainly interesting and what I'd really like is to see him in a press conference after they've won just to see if he takes, takes up to another level again. Hopefully, hopefully we'll get that opportunity after Chelsea or Porto in the, in the coming weeks. But I don't think that attitude's going to change. I mean Charlie will know better than me because he's had far more experience of him. But yeah, I don't get the sense he's going to be any different anytime soon.
- [18:51]
Ayo Akimolere
He is amazing. I have to say though not so much in the post match press conferences but what he did a few times was in the, kind of after a big loss or something. Then in his press conference a couple of days later previewing the next game. He'd really be good at kind of resetting the agenda and kind of explain it what had happened and putting it all into context and really making you think like, yeah, you know what? I think everything's gonna be okay. Like he is a really good communicator and yeah, I mean after wins, yeah, you do get that different side of him. And again, it's so different because he started so well at spurs, he had so much goodwill and he could really tee off in a positive way in his press conferences, especially in the pre match ones, you know, talking about all sorts of different things. It was almost like he was delivering these sermons and everyone loved to hear it because you know what it's like in football if you're winning matches and everything you say is viewed through that prism. If you're losing, then it's the same, but the opposite because you're kind of like, well, you know, you're making excuses or whatever. But yeah, I hope you do get that opportunity pool to hear him after a win. You know, he might settle a few scores as well. But I mean, I think his press conferences are genuinely fascinating. Especially, I mean, you know, you had Nuno, now Nuno is very, very different. He has many virtues, but kind of giving a good quote is not one of them. At least it wasn't at Spurs. Whereas, you know, Ange will talk about all sorts of topics and I think he will be able to galvanize the team and the group. But he does need some good results first. Otherwise it's all just empty, hollow rhetoric.
- [20:25]
Podcast Host (Guy Clark or Mike Stabro)
Well, that's exactly my thought on this one, Paul. Was that listening to that press conference, I'm thinking he's making some really valid points. Yes, we're all face challenges in our lives. He got a little philosophical about being 60 and having lived in Australia and you know, never been given handouts and all that kind of stuff. Super inspiring. But when you're not winning, it's kind of a little hollow, isn't it? Because it's less inspiring because you're saying, okay, you've built us up brilliant, but where are the results? And especially with a new fan base as well, it's very hard to take on board.
- [20:55]
Paul Taylor
I guess the fundamental aspect of it is that if he doesn't show absolute faith in the way that he does things himself, then nobody else is going to, are they? So he has to convey that belief himself, I guess, and that positivity and that absolute certainty that his way is the right way. Because if he doesn't do it, then nobody else is going to buy into it, are they? So I kind of get it, as Charlie mentioned, from a media point of view, from a selfish journalist point of view, he's great at handing out lines, he's brilliant. And that has been one thing we've noticed in the, in the aftermath of his pre match press conferences, in particular in Nuno's case you were sat there thinking, well, there's one good line there. That's great. Well, we know what the obvious line is. Then after Andrew's press conferences, you kind of sat there scratching your head thinking, well, there's three or four there. Which one's the best one? And that's probably a nice problem to have, to be fair. But just gets back to the same point, doesn't it? It'd be nice to be talking about a win rather than explaining why you've. Why you've lost.
- [21:42]
Podcast Host (Guy Clark or Mike Stabro)
Yeah, but Charlie, there was a time where, and I remember it was the first few in the Premier League where we were like, wow, who is this guy? Yeah, look at this front foot football. And we were part of it. I swear we're on the athletics saying, goodness me, is this a new era for Spurs? And then you sort of see that turn into this almost like, I guess the media is sort of treating him as a bit of a caricature. And I'm sure he's frustrated with that as well because he sort of put himself in this very strange position when he doesn't win games, but still has that kind of gusto, slash, gets frustrated. What have you made of that transition of Ange from darling to where we are right now with him?
- [22:15]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, it has been a kind of incredible transformation. I mean, you. Even within one game, I mean, spurs won eight, drew two of their first 10 and then the 11th was against Chelsea, a game in which they were ahead, were very, very close to going two nil up and instead got two men sent off, played that ludicrously high line with nine men. Ange gave the Suiana quote and it all kind of, you know, this wasn't like, oh, a gradual transformation. It was like, wow, overnight it was kind of the bubble was burst and spurs then got a ton of injury. They also, as well as getting two men sent off, had two bad injuries, suddenly got a ton of injuries, awful form. And while of course there were then highs from there, things were never quite the same. I mean, he would say and kind of has hinted at a degree of xenophobia, which I think is interesting. He said about the fact that, you know, I come up here and I talk with my silly voice and he didn't mention them explicitly, but I think he was hinting at the way Unai Emery was kind of mocked for, you know, in a very different way, but his way of speaking English, good evening and all of that sort of thing. I think his view is that he is different. He's far from the kind of archetype of a modern football coach. I mean, his age, apart from anything else as well. It's very unusual to have your big breakout moment in kind of your late 50s like he has. And he would say that's partly because coaches from Australia generally are viewed differently in the same way. Maybe coaches from America are in kind of European football. But yeah, it has been interesting to see that shift, I think, also because his football is so high risk, high reward, that you are going to go from, like you say, IO this kind of awestruck way. We were watching those first few games where it was kind of like they're winning and they're playing incredible football. Like, how is this happening and how is it happening so quickly to. Then it can get pretty bad pretty quickly because if you can kind of beat that high line, there are big gaps to exploit. And that's kind of what happened with Spurs.
- [24:04]
Podcast Host (Guy Clark or Mike Stabro)
I want to maybe give him a bit of redemption here because, you know, like any manager. And how relevant is his point about things firstly being difficult, but also needing time to fix that? Because very recently Sergio Ratcliffe has basically spoken about Ruben Amram saying, you know, giving him at least three years to sort of implement his ideas. Paul, can we give Postecoglou that. Give him time.
- [24:25]
Paul Taylor
He's had four Premier League games. You know, when you put it in those terms, regardless of what's happened, it feels daft that we're sat here talking about a manager potentially getting the sack. The fan dynamic doesn't help him. For whatever reason, fans really haven't taken to him. You go on social media, and I know social media is perhaps a small slice of the overall fan view, right. Rather than representative of the entire fan view. But social media is dark when it comes to Ange Postecoglou. There's fans just call a different to go already. You can understand that. I'm not saying that's wrong because he's made the worst start of any Forest manager in a century, which is remarkable when you say that out loud as well. But I think his biggest problem is going to be winning fans round. And the only way he's going to do that is by winning football matches. And the question then becomes, how many opportunities does he get to win a football match? And nobody thought we'd be saying this. Nobody thought he was going to come in and not win in seven games, but do we take it to eight? Do we tickets? 9, 10, 11, 12. Where's the line drawn? And the short answer is he does need to be Given more time to get that win. But how much time he gets will depend on his ability to do it.
- [25:24]
Ayo Akimolere
But also, I mean, like you say, Paul, four Premier League games, two of which have been Arsenal away and Newcastle away. Those are really hard games that teams a lot better, with respect, than Nottingham Forest are going to lose this season and that even Forest themselves in that great Nuno season last season, lost last season, you know, and then you look, you know, Burnley away, they drew. Yeah, you'd say they should be winning that or could win that, but it's not a disaster. And then they lost at Ohm Sullen, which is a bad result. But it's such a small sample size and I just think if you're appointing a manager, if four games are enough to kind of change your opinion, then you shouldn't have appointed him in the first place. No manager should be judged after that few games. Like, don't appoint him if that's going to change your view. And I'm talking about the owner here, so you've got to think, like, surely he has to get more time. You know, this does feel a little bit, you know, oh, the game's gone modern football. But it's just breakneck nowadays that after four games we're here already. When you know, where does it end after one game you get a bad defeat and you're like, ah, this guy probably isn't right. Let's get rid of him. I mean, Nuno himself, Paul, you remember, he wasn't massively popular when he came in, was he?
- [26:28]
Paul Taylor
No, no. He went through the same path as Ange is doing now. He had to follow on the footsteps of Steve Cooper, who was the first manager to bring Forest back to the Premier League after 23 years. But in that moment that they got promotion, I think this is where things started to change. Because during the celebrations for promotion, Evangelos Marinakis, the Forest owner, stood on the steps of the council house in the market square. And he pled that he didn't just want to acclimatize in the Premier League, he wanted to aim for European football. And that's what he said. He said, in a few years, I wanted to be playing European football. And everybody thought his ambitions were a little bit lofty. Fair play to him. Nobody's going to argue that he hasn't put his money where his mouth is and backed the team with investment in the transfer market to get to that point. But each year that sense of ambition has only grown. Last year, when they finished seventh and they could have finished even Higher. They challenged for Champions League football for a long spell of the season. I think think personally they probably slightly overachieved with what they'd got. It was a great season and everybody, the players were superb. Nuno was great, but there was a slight overachievement. They batted above their average, but the consequences of that were Marinakes coming out at the end of last season and saying he wanted even more. They're in Europe now. I want to challenge for trophies. When Postecogli was appointed, he made it clear that he had been bought here to win the Europa League. He wasn't just bought here to take Forest on a little bit. He wanted them to win silverware. And that has changed the expectation levels amongst supporters. They see that, they see their owner talking about wanting to win trophies and wanting to compete with the top six on a regular basis and that's what becomes the expectation. And that now is the bar by which Postecoglou already is being judged on.
- [27:59]
Ayo Akimolere
And it should be said, there's nothing wrong with having, you know, that level of ambition. And you know, I remember Southampton sacked Nigel Atkins in 2013 and everyone was kind of up in arms. They replaced him with this young Maurizio Pochettino guy who couldn't speak English. And we were like, what's he doing? It's funny because in football, if you upgrade a striker or something like that, we kind of celebrate it and we're like, what a show of ambition. If you do it with a manager, it's seen as quite cruel and short sighted. But it doesn't have to be. It's just the key is getting in that right guy. And it is interesting, Paul, you're saying, you know, that the aim is that Ange can come in and win the Europa League, which he's shown that he can do at spurs. But as you alluded to earlier, he did that while coming 17th in the premier League with Spurs. So he's not proven that he can win the Europa League without an enormous sacrifice in Premier League terms. And would Marinakis, would Forest accept that? I mean, I think zoom out. And in a few years you'd say, yeah, who cares if finish 17th as long as you win the Europa League. But that requires a lot of patience in the moment because that's a lot of losing. You know, that was 22 league defeats last season for Spurs.
- [29:03]
Podcast Host (Guy Clark or Mike Stabro)
And it's also a massive gamble as well. You think, you know, trying to get the fans on side. Paul. That was my natural thought. Great point, Charlie, is that if you see Forest finishing 17th but having a great Europa League run. Is that enough for Marinakis? Because that isn't great, especially for a volatile fan base right now.
- [29:20]
Paul Taylor
I think it's more what winning the Europa League would bring. You know, all of a sudden you'd be looking at being back in the Champions League, which would be be a huge step. I mean, I don't want to speak on behalf of the whole Forest fan base for a minute, but I think a lot of fans would probably accept that. Winning the Europa League, getting into the Champions League, and as long as you don't seriously flirt with relegation, I think they'd probably take that. But that's a big step, isn't it? Can you imagine the pressure if you even got to the final and all of a sudden you know how much there is on it. If you don't win it, you don't stay in Europe. If you don't win it, what has your season become? It's huge and it's a massive if. I don't know. I don't know if it would even get that far. If Forest was struggling against relegation and even if they were making progress in the Europa League, I'm not sure how long postecoglou would survive that.
- [30:01]
Podcast Host (Guy Clark or Mike Stabro)
Okay, well, next let's ask if Ang is already past the point of no return.
- [30:13]
Dana
Morning, Zoe. Got donuts.
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Jeff Bridges
Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage?
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Dana
Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T mobile commercial like you teach me. So, Dana.
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Jeff Bridges
Oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at T Mob. We'll get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.
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Dana
Wow, impressive. Let me try. T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.
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Jeff Bridges
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Ayo Akimolere
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Dana
So what are we having for lunch?
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Jeff Bridges
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- [31:43]
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- [32:10]
BetterHelp Advertiser
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast.
- [32:12]
Ayo Akimolere
With Ayo Akimolere Vasorio leading the charge.
- [32:15]
Paul Taylor
Gives white running back. Here's Andrea slides it through and surely that's the winning goal for Michelan.
- [32:24]
Podcast Host (Guy Clark or Mike Stabro)
I mean, the City Ground were quick to let Postecoglou know just how disappointed they were after their European home game. First one in 30 years, which ended in defeat. Now, Paul, this was the season Forest fans were going to be getting super, super excited about being back in Europe after so long. How damaging was that loss to Mittelli? Was it the worst of the lot?
- [32:47]
Paul Taylor
Yeah, yeah, it was. There's no glossing over it. I think what probably hurt the most as well was that Mitaland's third goal personified everything that had been great under Forest. Under Nuno, it was an explosive, speedy counter attack that kind of finished the game off. And it was a tough one because. Okay, you know, I don't want to sound like I'm making excuses, Franj. I'm just trying to be reasonable and fair and present what I saw. And there were moments in that game where they played some excellent football and where they created chances and where they were were. There were a lot of could have, would have, should have moments. Moments where the game might have turned out differently. It didn't turn out differently and they lost. And you can understand the fan frustration. And blimey, was there a heck of a lot of fan frustration. I've not seen a manager get so much vitriol from his own fans in a long time. I was going to say in such a short space of time, but I'm not sure if I've seen a manager get that much vitriol from the Forest fans ever. Certainly not singing, you're getting sacked in the morning after six or seven games. But this is the situation he's in. He's got to climb out from the shadow of the criticisms that he had at spurs because Forest fans are not just judging him on what they've seen so far. They're judging him on what he did at spurs in those final months when he was seemed to be constantly under fire.
- [33:58]
Podcast Host (Guy Clark or Mike Stabro)
Charlie, listen to this. Postecoglow has lost 18 of his last 26 Premier League games which began with Spurs 63 loss at home to Liverpool just before Christmas. He's won four, drawn four in that time. Time we talk about turning things around. You've got the issue of Europe looming over. You've also got the issue of the Premier League looming over. I mean, this is a massive task, mate.
- [34:21]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, that would be my biggest question is, you know, they came fifth in the Premier League in Ange's first season, the spurs, but they weren't in Europe. And then obviously last season, as we mentioned, they won the Europa League but had this horrendous league form. And those numbers are incredibly dangerous. Hamming. He's not shown in England that he's able to juggle the two competitions and at Celtic not really either because they weren't great in Europe. They then, you know, domestically they, they absolutely dominated. And we've seen, you know, he suffered a lot of injuries at Spurs. It was debated how much that was bad luck, how much that was, the demands put on the players, et cetera. We won't go into that now, but for whatever reason, the squad just fell apart injury wise. When they were seriously going for the Premier League and the Europa League. It was better in the second half of the season, but that was basically when they sac off the league and meant that, you know, the more injury prone players could get a rest in the Premier League, which is partly why they've got that terrible record. But that's the challenge because he's not in a position where he can sacrifice either. Certainly not at this point. But then where does that leave the squad? It doesn't look like he's, he's able to perform that juggling act or hasn't been able to yet. So that's a big challenge. That's a really big thing for him to prove that he can do. Of course he can turn around and say, you know, I've won trophies everywhere, including at Spurs. You can't argue with that, but you can legitimately say, okay, but have you been able to do kind of European football and the Premier League at the same time? And at Tottenham he didn't. Can you do that for us so far? No. He's going to have some big decisions about where to prioritize and whether he goes for sort of long term over short term gain, which is a really hard thing to do when you are rapidly running out of time already.
- [35:55]
Podcast Host (Guy Clark or Mike Stabro)
Yeah. Paul, is that the difficult thing here and just listening to what Charlie's saying is that there's a lot to turn around here, here. Player morale, style of football, fan base, European success. For even someone like Jose Mourinho, this is absolutely difficult.
- [36:13]
Paul Taylor
Yeah. He has no other choice but to go for short term. He has to, otherwise he won't survive. He has to get some results now to appease the owner, to appease the fan base, to convince his players that it's the right way of doing things. He has to win matches very soon, otherwise he isn't going to be around for long. I'm told that Marinakis is already taking counsel from the people around him about the situation. He's asking people around him what they think the fans think of him, what they think the players think of him. He's constantly assessing the situation. He isn't just resting on his laurels. But replacing another manager now would be fundamentally a very expensive thing, more than anything, you know, he's already presumably given Nuno Spirito Santo a fairly heavy pay. A payoff. He'd have to give Angepostecoglou a payoff. The managers that Forest have historically liked, and I say historically because they're only looking at managers a month ago, Marco Silva at Fulham and Oliver Glasner at Crystal palace, both of whom, if they were interested in the job, would require a payoff to get them to come to Nottingham Forest. So there'd be a financial aspect involved there as well. You could find yourself getting into a tricky area with PSR straight away just by changing your manager. So there's all these other things to take into account when you're thinking about making a change. I think he's got to be cautious on some level for now and hope that Postecoglou can inspire a change in fortunes just because it would influence so many other aspects of life at Nottingham Forest.
- [37:34]
Podcast Host (Guy Clark or Mike Stabro)
We've played hypotheticals, Paul, and please, Charlie, jump in on this one. Could Forest seriously see themselves in a massive relegation battle?
- [37:42]
Paul Taylor
A lot is going to be decided in the next few weeks, isn't it? They have to change their momentum. At the end of last season, everything was so optimistic. They were looking forward to a new season in Europe. They were looking forward to hopefully challenging to improve on their seventh place finish. They were looking forward to another season of football under Nuno Espirito. Santo. And now it just feels like the whole mood has become so much more dark in a short space of time that I don't think Forest fans any longer really know what to expect in terms of where can they set their sights, what can they hope for now? The short answer is yes, they could very quickly get sucked into a relegation fight. If, if they don't find a way to consistently win a few games, then yeah, they are going to be involved at the wrong end of the table. And once you get into that position, as Forrester have historically found, it's very difficult to get out of it. A relegation fight doesn't normally end up being something that gets resolved after a few months. It's something that becomes a season long thing, has had it twice under Steve Cooper, where they just survived by the skin of their teeth. So they don't want to get involved in that again because they felt like they'd put that behind them. It felt like being a relegation threatened side was not something that Forrest had to concern themselves about anymore.
- [38:50]
Ayo Akimolere
Another bit of context as well is that three out of Ange's first four league games have been away, whereas three of his next four will be at home. So that especially for a team like Forest, who traditionally have been really good at home, that should give him a bit of advantage. So, you know, things can change really quickly. I mean, we're talking here about how Forest's fortunes have lurched so dramatically from last season. Well, that could go the other way and you know, a few wins and then we'd suddenly be talking about, yeah, you know, they're comfortable mid table or even could they look higher? So I'm not saying that will happen, but that is possible. I mean, it would buy Ange so much time and enable him to really focus on the Europa League. If Forest could find a way to be kind of comfortable in the Premier League, you know, if they're kind of hovering around mid table, then I think, you know, then going for the Europa League would just feel totally logical and sensible. He so desperately needs that, you know, just to have a bit of distance because otherwise you are having to make difficult choices constantly. But it's hard to know. I mean, at this stage it's so early in the season, you know, what seven games in, there are so many teams, there are so many question marks over. But yeah, I think at this point you can't rule that out. Even though Forest were so good last.
- [39:57]
Podcast Host (Guy Clark or Mike Stabro)
Year, Paul, four of Forest's last five managerial changes have seen a successor named on the same day. The man in post has been sacked. The odd one out was also Nuno being announced one day after Steve Cooper left. As we've mentioned at the top, maybe a bit more respect for Steve Cooper. Does this suggest that a successor will be lined up before a decision's actually taken?
- [40:18]
Ayo Akimolere
Taken, yeah.
- [40:19]
Paul Taylor
Yeah, absolutely. That is the way that Evangelos Marinakis likes to work. He likes to have his replacement lined up before he pulls the trigger. I can kind of understand the logic of that. To be fair, you don't want to be making a decision to part company with a manager and then find that nobody wants to take the job. So he's probably quite wise to find out what your options are in terms of a replacement before you make that call. I know Martin o' Neill was upset when he was sacked at Forrest. He discovered that, you know, Sabri Lamucci was announced within half an hour, his replacement, and he felt like there was a situation where he was stood outside his office almost waiting to bring his own stuff in as he carried his hair. He wasn't quite that like that. But I get it. I get the logic of it. I understand why Marinakis is like that because it just makes perfect sense, doesn't it? You kind of know when a manager's time is almost up, when you start hearing whispers about other managers being approached.
- [41:09]
Podcast Host (Guy Clark or Mike Stabro)
Let's all pray that Ante Postecoglou can turn this around. All right, Charlie, Paul, thanks for your time and also thank you guys for listening. Matt Davies Adams is with you tomorrow. We'll catch you soon.
- [41:20]
BetterHelp Advertiser
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabro and Jay Beal. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and A.D. moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
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Ayo Akimolere
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- [42:27]
Dana
Morning, Zoe Got donuts.
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Jeff Bridges
Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage?
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Dana
Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T Mobile commercial like you. Teach me something.
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Jeff Bridges
Oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly AT T Mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.
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Dana
Wow, impressive. Let me try T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.
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Jeff Bridges
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Dana
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Paul Taylor
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Dana
So what are we having for launch?
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Jeff Bridges
Dude, my work here is done.
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