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- [00:01]
Matt Slater
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- [00:15]
Roshane Thomas
Amazon Health AI presents Painful Thoughts why
- [00:21]
Matt Slater
did I search the Internet for answers
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Jack Pitt
to my cold sore problem?
- [00:24]
Adam Leventhal
Now I'm stuck down a rabbit hole
- [00:26]
Matt Slater
filled with images of alarmingly graphic sores in various stages of ooz. I can clear my search history, but
- [00:35]
Jack Pitt
I can never unsee that.
- [00:38]
Roshane Thomas
Don't go down the rabbit hole. Amazon Health AI gets you the right care fast. Healthcare just got less painful.
- [00:49]
Podcast Announcer
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- [01:40]
Adam Leventhal
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Adam Leventhal. West Ham have been relegated from the Premier League just three three years after winning the Europa Conference League. But just how costly will the drop be for the Hammers? Well, with me is the Athletics senior Football News reporter Matt Slater and West Ham correspondent Roshane Thomas, who, if you are watching on YouTube, you will see he's outside and he's trying to enjoy the sunshine. Roshane, how are you emotionally after that?
- [02:20]
Roshane Thomas
That's a very good question. I don't even know how to answer that question. Honesty still down. West Ham being relegated to the championship, but we'll get into it. It's definitely, definitely deserved when you factor how poor we've been all season.
- [02:34]
Adam Leventhal
The thing that people can't see is that you're actually in a paddling pool full of tears at the moment. That's why you're outside. I jest, of course. There'll be a lot of West Ham fans that are feeling on the ground today on this bank holiday Monday. So after 14 seasons in the Premier League, West Ham are going to be a championship club. You've had a front row seat to the season and you've documented a lot of it in your inside read. For the Athletic, it's well worth the read for everyone out there and we're going to be pulling on a lot of the threads that you deal with in the article. But overall, as a season, how bad has it been?
- [03:09]
Roshane Thomas
It's been an awful season, in honesty, and my main takeaways from the season, that has been a lack of fighting spirit throughout the whole season. Graham Potter, a very slow start under him, I believe it was one win in the first five league games. And there's one game that really sticks out of my mind. It was the loss to Chelsea, and this probably was the third or second game of the season. And a young supporter tried to run the pitch in protest and Surers took him away. Right. But an elderly fan felt outraged by that, almost to say, like, how dare you take away this young fan. He had every right to protest. And I thought, wow, we're in August and this is how fans feel already. So it's just been a lack of consistency and there's been a lot of tension because there's one cup game against Wolverhampton in August as well, and a fan almost clashed with J Born. And again, in the years I've been carving West Ham, Jared Bowen is very cool. Very cool guy. Rarely ever loses his temper, but he lost his temper in that game and his team had to hold him back. So again, this is in August and the signs were there. That all wasn't well at West Ham.
- [04:11]
Adam Leventhal
You really sensed it, did you? And the players were sensing it, that this was off key.
- [04:15]
Roshane Thomas
Yeah, massively. And a lot of fans will tell you that after the opening day loss of Sunderland, many were like, yeah, this is the year we go down. This is the year we go down. Because even in pre season, the performances. I know pre season is all about fitness, but even that early, you could tell the signs were there that this team just doesn't click.
- [04:30]
Adam Leventhal
Matt, from your point of view, they've got 39 points and they're going down. West Ham, that's the highest tally to go down since Birmingham and Blackpool 15 years ago. But they have pretty much been in the relegation zone from the start of the season. They popped their heads above the line maybe six times over the course of the season. You can't have sympathy for them, can you?
- [04:53]
Matt Slater
Not really. Look, three teams have got to go down, haven't they? It's very hard to make a case that they don't deserve to be one of those three. You know, I don't have a dog in this fight. It came down to them. And spurs didn't it, and spurs did a bit more, you know, the table doesn't lie. Yes, I guess you can look at that historic mark. You know, he always used to say, sort of gets 40. They got pretty close. I think they're the team, ironically, that have gone down with the highest total ever. That was 42 points. Which again, I suppose tells a story, right, that this is not West Ham's first rodeo. West Ham get relegated every decade or so. Go back to 80s, 90s, noughties. This happens. So do I have sympathy? Look, you know, I know a lot of West Ham fans are from Essex. You know, relegation is not nice. But lads, you're one of the three worst teams this season and you have the least excuses of those three. Your wage bill, quality of the players you've bought, the amount of money you've spent. So of the, you know, no, I suppose I'm now convincing myself to have less and less sympathy the longer I talk.
- [05:58]
Adam Leventhal
Do you concur, Roshane, in terms of there are no excuses, that there is now a dog on your lap?
- [06:05]
Matt Slater
That's fantastic.
- [06:07]
Adam Leventhal
You've literally, you have got a dog in the fight and he's on your
- [06:09]
Jack Pitt
lap at the moment.
- [06:10]
Adam Leventhal
For people watching on YouTube, Matt said that there are no excuses. When you look at the start of the season, you mentioned it earlier on Graham Potter, you know, four defeats in five games at the beginning of the season, when you change your manager so soon from Potter to Nuno, you've almost ditched the entire preparation that you've had for the season. So was that the beginning of the problems? Do you feel that decision?
- [06:41]
Roshane Thomas
Very much so. And when you even think about Graham Potter's departure, it was almost unexpected because the day before he had this press conference before the Everton game.
- [06:50]
Matt Slater
And.
- [06:50]
Roshane Thomas
And if you remember well, that was around a time where he was very popular on social media with the viral face swap. So during the press conference, he was constantly asked about the viral face swap. Rarely was he asked about his future. And then the following day he was sacked when he arrived at training and the players were surprised by it.
- [07:07]
Adam Leventhal
Did that sum up the fact that the fans weren't having him? And it reflected the fact that last season, the season before last, I know we've ended now, last season they were not convincing. It was looking dicey for some time and the fans probably wouldn't have been that disappointed if there had been change in the summer.
- [07:28]
Roshane Thomas
Ultimately, Graham Potter had to leave because the results weren't good enough. He wasn't getting the best out of the players. View issue is his replacement. Because at the time my gut feeling was you point someone like Slavin Bilic on a contract, on a short term contract until the end of the season, and then in the summer you have a massive reset. Because my issue with the Nuno appointment is you give him a long term contract, which is what he's on a three year deal. Unless it doesn't go so well, you're stuck ultimately because it's a case where you have to keep him or does he resign? So the getting rid of Graham Potter wasn't the issue, it's a replacement, which has been the issue. Hence why West Ham are relegated now.
- [08:04]
Adam Leventhal
Well, let's get to it now with Nuno Roshane because obviously he's in a very precarious position and things may be confirmed by West Ham at any point soon. But as it stands right now, what is the situation as of right now,
- [08:21]
Roshane Thomas
what, 20 past 10 on this lovely Monday morning, He's still undecided what he will do. I think that reflects poorly on Nino, because in the press conference last Friday, right, my question to him was, how likely is it that you'll still be in charge next season? The club were relegated and he said, now's not the time to discuss that. We'll discuss it after the game on Sunday. And again I was like, how likely is it you'll, you'll be still be here? And he's like, we still need time to decide, not the time to talk about it. And I think if you're the head coach, as I mentioned, you had a three year contract. Again, it shows the lack of fighting spirit, which should be reflecting how West Ham plays. Because what Nuno should do, right, if you want to stay is say, look, I'm the head coach, relegation is on me. I, I ought to the fans, this club, to get this club back to the Premier League, like that is my duty as head coach. But he hasn't done that. And that's why a lot of fans want Nino to leave. And based on what fans are saying on, on YouTube, social media, a lot of them would like to see Scott Parker or potentially Craig Bellamy, both are former West Ham players and I see the logic and argument for both because they have the fighting spirit, they get the club. My frustration with Nuno over the past nine months is sometimes half one if. If he really gets what it means to be a West Ham head coach. Because there was one game, it was, it was a loss to Wolves, a 3, 0 loss and. And in all honesty, that was the game that confirmed the relegation for West Ham because the team were absolutely poor. And after the match Nino didn't go to the away fans, he didn't acknowledge them one bit. And I thought that is very bad of a West Ham head coach to completely ignore the fan base. And if you look at his press conferences again, it just lacks fighting spirit. And that's been the theme of West Ham season.
- [09:59]
Adam Leventhal
And if he wasn't the right guy in the, in the dugout. You also alluded to the fact that there weren't necessarily the leaders in the dressing room as well in that, in that side.
- [10:10]
Roshane Thomas
When it comes to addressing the leadership void, that's all down to Graham Pa because in the summer he got rid of the likes of Mikel Antonio. Obviously West Ham's all time leading goal scorer in the Premier League. Aaron Cresswell has been a great player over the years. Vladimir Safal been a great servant to the club. Lukas Fabianski of all he returned as first Ross goalkeeper. These are like big characters in Jesseh. Why I mentioned Voltaimen in particular also Kurt Zuma as well, the ex club captain. But why I mainly got to focus on Vladimir sfr, Mikel Antonio and Al Crestworm is they were huge, huge characters behind the scenes. Someone like Mikel Antonio, he was in charge of playoff vines so he was always on top of holding players accountable. Aaron Creswell, he was so important for non playing stuff. So I'll give you an example. In a build up to the to the Conference League final there was issues about non playing stuff, getting a flight out to Prague and Aaron Questel stepped in and got that sorted. So this is how important he is behind the scenes as someone like Vladimir. Why he's so important is the culture him and Tomas Suchek set at that club. In the training ground they were always, well, not always, but most days at the training ground on their days off and then when other players start seeing that they're going to come in on their days off. So they were massive in terms of culture. But for whatever reason Graham Potter got rid of him and throughout the season she's seen the lack of leaders in that team. And I like Jared Bowen, I think he's a great player. As far as I'm concerned, he's a West Ham legend, but everyone will tell you he's not a captain. And my mind goes back to a European game, I'm going to say, maybe three years ago. And Jared Bourne was a media duty to this day, right? And at the time, you had characters like Declan Rice in the team, Mark Noble, Craig Dawson, Andrew Ogbonna, these great characters. And my question to Jared Bourne was, you know, there's a lot of big leaders and big characters in a change room. Would you consider yourself to be one of them? And his response was, you know, not really. I'm quite. I'm quite quiet in the change room. I don't really say much. And why I'm bringing that up is leadership is something you have. I don't think it's something you can gain over time. You have it or you don't have it. And I think when it comes to Jared Bond, he doesn't have it. And I bring it up because we've seen it in terms of how his lack of being vocal on the pitch. And there's one game that comes to mind, it was the loss to Liverpool. And in this game, Lucas Pakhita was just head loss, absolutely headless. And he was having a go at the referee. And I believe in this match he was sent off. Right. But I looked at Jair Bourne and I thought, you're the captain, get him away from the referee. And it was a point where Alisson obviously prays with Bazon. Actually, your team with Lucas Pakita, he did more to get Lucas Pakatar away from the referee than Jaya Boren. I looked at Jayabon, I thought, you're a captain, like, come on, you got to lead by example. So the leadership voice been a massive issue for West Ham because you're not looking at a team and think, who's going to hold each other accountable? Who's going to hold team meetings? And saying this is what calls for, who's going to be like a. A Mark Noble, a Robert Snodgrass, a Vadima Safa, Aaron Cresswell. As I mentioned, there's no one that team I could think of, barring, let's say, maybe Thomas Suchek. So, yeah, that's definitely been a big issue for West Ham this season.
- [13:09]
Podcast Announcer
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- [13:19]
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- [14:08]
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Roshane Thomas
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- [16:10]
Adam Leventhal
Matt from your point of view, you know, looking from the outside in, where do you think the problems started? Because Roshane's just been talking about, you know, European nights. They won the Europa Conference League under David Moyes. He mentioned Declan Rice in the mix there. And I suppose it couldn't be more symbolic really that, you know, West Ham are going down. Declan Rice is having the time of his life yesterday, lifting the Premier League trophy. There's been some key decisions going back quite a long time that have been potential starting points for this.
- [16:45]
Matt Slater
Yeah, I mean, look, Roshane, that was fantastic just listening to some of that because like I said, I'm a neutral observer here, but it just starts to make complete sense. This is largely a footballing disaster. Just really poor recruitment, wrong managers, wrong time, that kind of leadership issue. It sounds like there was very clearly a conscious effort to get younger, to move people on, which is fine, but you've just got to do that in a measured way, haven't you? You've got to pick the right people to stay. And it just seems like they've made a series of bad calls. Look, I suppose we've been talking for what, 15, 20 minutes. We haven't mentioned the stadium yet. So a lot of people want to talk about the stadium. And it is interesting that it's sort of 10 years since they left Upton park. And I remember going to Upton Park, I remember going to Upton park in that final season. It was a proper old fashioned English football cauldron. And West Ham's crowd really could be a 12th man, particularly in the big games. Used to get really like London Derbies, Man United, that sort of thing would just be fantastic. So tough place to go. I don't think I'm announcing any amazing scoops here. The London Stadium's not that place. And no matter what they try and do to it, it is an athletic stadium. And there's a reason why British football teams don't want any part of athletic stadiums or old greyhound tracks or anything like that. You know, we, we, we want to be on top of the pitch, we want to be close to the pitch, we want the sight lines better. You know, we want the noise. It's just very tough. However, West Ham made that decision, West Ham's ownership made that decision and it made complete sense for them. Now, I think you could argue that they felt it made sense for West Ham as well. And it definitely put 20,000 on the match day. That's significant. It put them in a cool part of town where things were on the up Bought into that kind of cachet from the Olympics. This whole new sort of like kind of area of London that would, you know, previously been this sort of almost like medieval knackers yard, you know, fantastic new train station that someone paid for. Fantastic stadium that someone paid for. Incredible. Sweetheart deal. And we could do a whole podcast on that. They absolutely got the mayor, Boris Johnson, and they rinsed him, I. E. Every London taxpayer ever since for the next 90 odd years. So from that great business decision, I think there are football implications. And one is you've lost your 12th man. Okay? You've done something to your revenues. And this is where I was sort of hinting at in my first answer. West Ham kind of leapt forward into the Deloitte Rich list. I think they're sort of 17th in the world on revenue. They're like ninth or 10th in the Premier League. They're ninth or 10th on wage bill. That's kind of where they'd be. They have set themselves up. They've gone from being a yo yo club financially to a mid table Premier League team. And yes, they came sixth, they came seventh, they went to the semifinals of Europa League, Then they win the Conference League, okay, you've won a European trophy. Then they go back and go to the quarters. So they have three decent years in Europe. They've always had a reasonable academy. There's lots going right here. But then we have two calamitous years where recruitment is wrong, they're making managerial appointments are wrong, they're losing whatever they had in the dressing room. They sell Declan Rice, they don't reinvest. That's an old story, isn't it? We've seen that a number, a number of times. And I just think once you start making a series of bad decisions, that big decision you made 10 years ago starts to come back to hurt you.
- [20:23]
Adam Leventhal
And Roshane, in terms of that being illustrated and things coming home to roost for David Sullivan, the fact that he wasn't able to see out the game in the stands, despite the fact that there was a victory, you know, it was meaningless. He was getting a lot of criticism from the fans. Just take us into that moment and also then what he must be thinking at this time.
- [20:50]
Roshane Thomas
Yeah, it initially happened during a drinks break. Honestly, everyone turned towards the director's box, mainly looking towards David Sullivan. And it was a volatile atmosphere. Obviously, I can't repeat the chants now because it was definitely some unsavoury chance, but it was volatile, the atmosphere. And it reached a point where ultimately he became very uncomfortable Hearing it and he vacated his seat, I'm gonna say around the 84th minute, but still, fans were still charting his name and were charting the Bruce. Really. It's happened at every game. Every game around the 16th minute, the fans will sing sack the board, right? And there's one game that really sticks out of my mind. It was away win against Fulham in March. And again the fans charted sack the board. But after that they really went for David Sullivan and also Karen Brady. And again, I can't repeat the language they use, but just unsavory once more. And they've had to deal with that the whole season. And don't get me wrong, where West Ham are, they are to blame as well, because as Matt touched on, the equipment hasn't been good enough. They moved from Upton park to Honor Stadium. A world class stadium for a world class team is what Karen Brady said. And 10 years on from that, the club's now in the second tier of English football. So look, they definitely deserve brain for what's happened. What next in terms of if Davis Sullivan will step down? I don't see that happening. He's going to increase the stick of also joint chairman Daniel Katinski, so he has no intention of stepping down David Sullivan.
- [22:07]
Adam Leventhal
Matt, let's talk about the financial cost for West Ham. The top line figures for people who aren't necessarily familiar with the impact of relegation. What does this mean for their bottom line, straight up?
- [22:21]
Matt Slater
Yeah, well, look, relegation costs clubs at least half of your revenue and possibly a bit more, 55, 60%. So, you know, the first thing that happens is club like West Ham. So last year they came 14th, so their merit payments went down a bit and they made about just under 240 million quid, of which about 60%, I think that's 140 was TV money. So when you're relegated, you get a parachute payment. Now, the parachute payment is in the first year, 55% of the basic payment, the basic payment that every club gets. So that's the way the Premier League dishes out their money, is everyone gets 90 million or so and then you get 3 to 4 million. It's actually getting close to 4 million now a place. So the team that comes first is getting 19 times as much as the team that comes, you understand? And then you also get 25% of the total pot is dished out on a basis of how many times you're on TV. So what they call facility fees. So 50% is shared evenly. 25% in merit rakes in merit payments, 25% in how often you're on TV and everyone's on a minimum amount of time. And the way once you sort of divvied all that out, it's a ratio of 1 to 1.8. So the team that comes first is getting 1.8 times as much the team that comes first. So that's how the Premier League dishes its money out. When you're relegated, you get 55% of that basic payment. And also then, you know, one of the whole stories of the London Stadium was, yes, they've had these big gates. I think only Man United on average are bigger. They get a lot of tourists. It's been the place where, if you're visiting London, you want to see Premier League football. West Ham is your easiest place to get a ticket. And when they moved, they kept their tickets pretty low. They kept the season tickets pretty low, certainly compared to like their peer group Premier League London clubs. So they're going to get, I think, various hits, big hit on the TV money that's more than halving. And of course, when they were doing pretty well, they got that European money. So the last two years they were already going the wrong direction. They made a record West Ham record 104 million pound loss last season because they came 14th. No European football. And also because their Declan money, their kind of player trading money, was dropping off as well. So all the metrics are going the wrong way. Before relegation, there'll be relegation clauses in the players contracts, there'll be relegation clauses in the sponsors contracts. So all three of their revenue streams will go down. The one that might go up, I think has to go up. They have no choice is player trading because they've done that pretty poorly since selling Declan Rice. There's going to be a fire sale. I think there was possibly going to be a fire sale anyway. If they came 17th, there's going to be a bigger one now. Yeah, they got problems.
- [25:12]
Adam Leventhal
Let's go into that potential fire sale, then. Roshane, who's off about four to six
- [25:18]
Roshane Thomas
players, will leave this summer because the club have to raise 150 million in player sales. And those on the contract will be expected to remain to help the club return to the Premier League at the first time I've asked him. So, in terms of players likely to leave this summer, the first comes to mind is Batijas Fernandes. He's been a great signing this season from Southampton and the club expect to recoup massively on the 38 million they spent on him. So he has interest from Pasak German, which we reported previously. So he's definitely someone I could see leaving for sure. Only issue with West Ham is Southampton have a 50% sell on clause, so they're going to recoup quite a bit from that as well. So it's not a case for West Ham and are trying to get 50 million. They'll probably want to get 60 million because that plays a part in what they can spend in the summer. Club captain Jared Bowen, the club hope he will stay, but listen, as Matt touched on, they need to, they need to raise money. So I could definitely see West Ham entertaining a big offer for him. Malik Juf, the left back, who I think has great potential, still very raw, but has great potential. I expect him to leave. Hermansen, the goalkeeper, he could probably leave as well. Somerville, who's been exciting winger this season, he will have interests, I'm sure for the European club. So he's another that'll probably leave. So look, it's going to be a massive turnover in personnel. A massive turnover in personnel. The last time West Ham re relegated at the end of the 2010, 2011 season, about 13 players left, if I'm not mistaken. So the club are hoping to avoid a repeat of that because it's one thing selling players, but signing players is a whole entire different ball game. And as Matt mentioned earlier, when they saw Declan Rice, they signed the likes of Mohamed Kudas, who's not there anymore, and Ezin Alvarez, who's no longer there. Maverick Panos, another name who'll probably leave this summer. So many players with Tadibo, who's clashed with every manager he's had at West Ham, he's another player I expect to leave in the summer. So look, the equipment's been poor and winning the championship, it's even harder. So it's going to be tough for West Ham this summer.
- [27:11]
Matt Slater
You know, West Ham fans will be listening to this, going, oh, my word, you know, thanks very much, lads. The sun's shining. You know, yesterday was bad enough. Let's just tell the other side of the story here. First, West Ham still have a massive stadium. They're still going to have a huge revenue. They probably have the biggest. They will have the biggest revenues in the championship next year. They have a parachute payment. They actually have two, three years of parachute payments to look forward to. So they have an advantage. And for the last. So prior to Spygate, we could well have had, I think the sixth or seventh year in a row of two of the three promoted teams being parachute teams. So Southampton, were you Know, obviously they had a game to win before they were booted out. But with Ipswich, there were two parachute teammates there, parachute payment teams going up, and that's been the case pretty much ever since. COVID Parachute payment teams have a huge advantage in the championship. Just a fact. So West Ham still have plenty going for them. Yes. If they get recruitment, right, for the first time in whatever it is, three, four years, yeah, they can definitely retool, they can sell some of these players and they can go again. And I think I mentioned it 10, 15 minutes ago, West Ham have, in their kind of institutional memory, going down, coming back, right? They've done this three, four times in my lifetime alone. It's not doom and gloom, it's not the end of the world. They also, and this is complicated, one of their owners, Daniel Krasinski, is a billionaire, multi billionaire, and he bought into the club. And at a time when there seems to be momentum, when there seemed to be, oh, hello, London Stadium. That's quite an interesting move. Look like West Ham had this chance, along with Everton Villa, Leicester, of being the best of the rest. Could we break in? Could we be a disruptor? So Kratinski buys in. He's. He's a really interesting character. He's a Czech, you know, he owns. He owns a Royal Mail now. He owns lots of coal mines, he owns lots of newspapers, he owns Spas Prague. Fascinating guy. Is this his moment? Because he bought 27%, he had an option to buy more, which he didn't take. And he has sat there. I think he's had a lot of things going on. I think the Royal Mail was quite an interesting business proposition for him. I wonder if this is his moment. So we have been waiting for confirmation that he has gone to 40%. He's gone 27 to 40. Now, that has been reported, hinted at, suggested around the time that Karen Brady left. And the story here is that David Sullivan's longtime partner, David Gold, who died a few years ago, he owned about 25%. That stake has been sitting there with his estate and they've been trying to sell it and nobody has bought it. It looks like Sullivan and Kratynski are going to buy bits of it and Both go to 40. Sullivan's going to buy a tiny bit, Krasinski's going to buy a bit more. They're going to go to 40 each that you've got. The Gold estate will own about 10. There's other American investors been sitting there doing nothing, called Trip Smith. He's going to own 10. So 40, 40, 10, 10 by and large. But we haven't seen any. There's been nothing at Companies House. Is Krasinski really buying shares or is it, I wonder, a capital raise, an equity raise that he's the only one that's taken part in? The more I am waiting for detail. I think that's what's going on here. I think Kratinski is putting money in that naturally takes him to 40 because the rest aren't. The rest aren't participating. And then we'll have to see what the Sullivan clan do. You know, I wonder if in a year's time, two years time, this isn't Kratynsky's club. And then I also wonder if it isn't Kratinski Stadium as well.
- [31:00]
Adam Leventhal
So big changes we're expecting, but in the shorter, the shorter term. Roshane, in an answer, do you feel that West Ham are going to bounce back? At the first time of asking, I actually don't.
- [31:10]
Roshane Thomas
I actually don't. You know what my biggest worry when it comes to West Ham is back to back relegation. I could see a world where West Ham more recently do a Luton Town. I really can.
- [31:19]
Matt Slater
Oh, Alicester.
- [31:20]
Adam Leventhal
And a Leicester. Yeah, and Leicester's probably a more comparable example of a relative Premier League juggernaut circling the drain twice. But look, let's leave it there. You're sat outside Roshane enjoying the sunshine on the bank holiday Monday. Try and focus on that rather than the football for the remainder of the day. And Matt's going to stay with me to talk about Tottenham next. Thanks Roshane.
- [31:43]
Podcast Announcer
Take care.
- [31:50]
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- [32:15]
Jack Pitt
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- [32:48]
Roshane Thomas
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- [33:21]
Podcast Announcer
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Adam Levantine.
- [33:27]
Adam Leventhal
Coming is back on the post and
- [33:28]
Roshane Thomas
I think it's across the line. Goal signal by Michael Oliver. Fine margins, huge moments.
- [33:39]
Adam Leventhal
So it was Tottenham who survived on the final day, courtesy of Joao Polina's goal to beat Everton. Joining us to discuss all of that is our spurs correspondent, Jack Pitt.
- [33:50]
Jack Pitt
Brook.
- [33:51]
Adam Leventhal
Jack, Relief, I suppose, must have just been coursing through the veins of every Tottenham fan at the, at the stadium. Or was it, Was it something different?
- [34:00]
Jack Pitt
Yeah, relief, but I think also a lot of joy and positivity and unity and happiness. It was a, it was bizarre. Like it was, it was, it was one of the happiest I've ever seen that stadium, which is quite something given that they, you know, if they conceded two goals at the end, they would have been relegated. It felt like such a positive place. Everyone behind the team, everyone behind De Zerbi. And given that this season has been marked by some of the worst performances from Tottenham teams I've ever seen. Incredible off field drama, the sacking of Daniel Levy in September, just kind of chaos and carnage at points on and off the pitch. And so for them to end the season in such a happy way is bizarre. Even more bizarre is the fact they've given all this nonsense they've been through this season, they've ended up in exactly the same place they finished last season, which is a 17th place finish in the Premier League, but a kind of strangely happy, positive vibe. Everybody loves the manager, everyone loves the players again. And it makes you wonder, like, how have they, how have they gone through all of this stuff this season on and off the field and ended up in exactly the same place?
- [35:04]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, we'll come on to the future and the next steps. But Matt, from, from the point of view of, of spurs, you know, we were speaking about West Ham, their relationship and connection with their own stadium. For Tottenham still having to pay for that, you know, huge piece of work, they've really dodged a bullet by not going down, haven't they?
- [35:26]
Matt Slater
They have. There are big differences between the stadiums, right? There are huge differences. One is the best stadium in Europe and the other's not. Yes, West Ham have an amazing sweetheart deal there. The rent situation is ridiculous for them, but spurs, yeah, they've borrowed an awful lot of money to build it, but they got it on a really good interest rate. They kind of lucked out, stroke played it well. So I don't know if the stadium's the problem. It's not the problem. I mean, the stadium's part of the story. It's sort of like, you know, why aren't you better in this amazing home that was supposed to make you better? And I, you know, I think it's interesting that Jack was saying that, you know, yesterday felt. Felt great.
- [36:08]
Jack Pitt
You know, I wasn't there.
- [36:09]
Matt Slater
I was watching a match of the day and it sounded really loud. It looked like the way it was meant to be, right? This sort of football cathedral that was designed to be loud and colorful. That's how it came across. And I'm thinking, right, there you go. Your stadium's not your problem. So, look, relegation's bad for Everybody, right? It's 50% gone straight away, maybe more. You know, spurs would have had relegation clauses in all their sponsorship deals too. The parachute payments would have barely helped. And there's uncertainty off the pitch with their ownership situation. So there are definite, There are clear parallels, right? You know, teams get relegated for good reason because things are going wrong on and off the pitch, but they are different, right? Every relegated club has sort of unique set of circumstances. And the most important thing in this part of the conversation is Tottenham Hosper are not a relegated club.
- [37:02]
Adam Leventhal
And Jack, you know, you spoke about the joy, the positivity, fans thinking, hang on a minute, we've landed hook or by crook on a manager that has the potential to give us that elevation. Having been circling the drain for two seasons, you know, next season, he's the guy that can actually knit a team together. But that is also, I suppose, forgetting. He is also a volatile manager. So he does also have an implosion
- [37:30]
Jack Pitt
in him, doesn't he? Potentially, yeah. I think there's. The fact is, I think people were pretty surprised when Tottenham gave him the five year contract because he, you know, he's generally moved jobs a bit quicker than that in the past, but I think he's now in a position of huge power at that club. Like, the players worship him, the fans worship him. The club will be immensely Grateful to him. Even on top of the, you know, the lavish salary he's paid. The fact is he saved them hundreds of millions of pounds. You know, the investment in that, in that salary, in that contract has been totally justified by the fact that they don't, they do not have a huge hole in their finances for next season now. So I think that all that all means that my sense on the direction of travel in terms of recruitment is that De Zerbi will have, he will have to have a huge say because he's the guy who, who means that they're, they're still shopping for Premier League level players. And he was very blunt afterwards in the press conference, having been, you know, since he took the job, he was very like, oh, my players are fantastic. They were such brilliant players. I'm so happy to work with them. And then after they stayed up, he said, he basically said, I think he said there's 10 to 12 players he can count on, which is not that many, to be honest, in a big squad. So, yeah, I suspect there will be change coming and I think De Zerbi will be the one driving it.
- [38:41]
Adam Leventhal
And what needs to be done behind the scenes in terms of the recruitment structure, the structure above as well, because there's been a huge amount of uncertainty and as you said, huge amount of change since Daniel Levy has left. Are there clear things that need to be, you know, arms that need to be cut off and that it needs to be completely changed, or is there enough there just to be recalibrated?
- [39:04]
Jack Pitt
Well, I think the first big question is the new sporting director. So Tottenham, between the middle of October and the end of January, they had two sporting directors, Johan Lange and Fabio Paratici. Then Paratici left to go and run Fiorentina. And so Tottenham went back down to one sporting director. But they have been trying the last few months to get back to two sporting directors again. But they've been running a process to get to find somebody who will work alongside Johan Langer for this summer and next season. We reported if a few weeks ago that Sebastian Kell, formerly of Borussia Dortmund, was the kind of leading candidate to be that new man. So we're waiting to hear what exactly is going to happen there. But clearly Tottenham have been working on an addition to the, to the structure. I think the question, as well as who will be filling those roles is also, what's the budget going to be? You know, are they going to. Will we see more money coming in from the majority shareholding Lewis family? I suspect we will. How much of that money that comes in will be able to go on players? Not all of it will, I don't imagine. And Tottenham will have to keep a bit of an eye on PSR situation, which has not always been the case in the past. Will they continue their policy of loosening the Daniel Levy wage structure, which is allowed them to sign Conor Gallagher in January, which I think was a successful signing in the end. So I think a lot of it's. It's not just about appointments, it's also about what exactly is the strategy of the Lewis family? Because we don't. That is the one big question mark that we don't really know what the answer is yet.
- [40:32]
Matt Slater
Jack, I've got a question. I mean, what is the point of even one director of football if as. And I think you're absolutely right, De Zerbi is going to be making all the calls? I mean, that's just. What is the point? I mean, we spent a decade talking about this model. It's supposed to be the other way around and we know it's not at several clubs. But if everybody knows, that's a problem, right? It's one thing kind of people kind of close to a club sort of knowing, well, actually the manager's making those calls. But if everybody knows, and you're absolutely right, I think everybody does know, why are you hiring another one? And I also would just add, I probably could have added this in my sort of slightly more positive note around West Ham, of course, we're moving to squad cost. Now, PSR would be a problem for both of these clubs because that is very much a measure of how much money you are losing on a kind of three year rolling basis. This is what we've been living with for a decade. We're now moving to something much more. Well, that's tied to revenue. And both of these clubs, West Ham relatively, are going to be the highest revenue club in the championship and spurs still are a high revenue club in the Premier League. Squad cost works for them, particularly at this sort of moment in their cycle when they're like, oh, God, we're bumping along the bottom here, we've got to sort of get out of this. Squad cost definitely gives them some freedom to spend a bit more this summer. So, you know, slightly a good timing note for both these clubs.
- [41:57]
Adam Leventhal
Jack, final word from you. If you were sat here last year and Tottenham had finished 17th, you may have been asked this question then. What did you say when someone said, oh, they're not going to be back here next season in 17th, they will have learned their lessons from this season. Let's fast forward now to next season. They're not going to be back here in 17th next season, are they, Jack?
- [42:20]
Jack Pitt
Well, de Zerbi was in the post match press conference. One of the questions of De Zerbi was can you promise this will never happen again? And I'd have to go back and check the transcript, but I'm pretty sure he didn't say, yes, I do promise this will never happen again. I think what he said was more along the lines of, well, the Premier League's a very, very difficult league and you have to be very competitive. So I think a lot will hinge on this summer. But I think the story of this season is that the bar has been raised so much in the Premier League, particularly by, you know, the teams like Palace, Fulham, Sunderland, Brentford, Brighton. And that means that a kind of big club that gets complacent and makes mistakes is in trouble. Yeah, we saw this with Tottenham this year, Tottenham last year, Man United last year. I mean, look, look at Chelsea finishing 10th this year. So I think that big clubs who get it wrong and who take their eye off the ball and who get their strategy wrong and their execution wrong, they're in trouble. I don't think it's the strongest set of promoted clubs coming up next season, which might reduce the threat of, of a big team getting relegated or really sucked in like Tottenham got sucked in this year. But it's not an easy fix for spurs to get from where they are now back to, you know, when they used to routinely finish third, fourth, fifth, sixth. That is the big jump they've got to do to get from here to there. And there's a lot of very, very good teams that they're going to have to leapfrog to do that.
- [43:42]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, Coventry, Ipswich and Hull coming up. You'd expect them to be around the bottom three, certainly. Matt, thank you very much for your time today. Jack, thank you. Look forward to your coverage on spurs, but in particular on on England. Both of you at the World Cup. Thanks to Roshane earlier on as well and thank you for listening and we'll catch you on the next one.
- [44:07]
Podcast Announcer
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroo and Jay Beal with editing by Paul Iliff and Nick Thompson. The executive producer is Adie Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts refresh free including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic Wherever you get your podcasts, you'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company Production
- [44:35]
Roshane Thomas
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