How much worse can it get for Amorim and Man United?

Summary

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The Athletic FC Podcast Summary

Episode Title: How much worse can it get for Amorim and Man United?
Date: August 28, 2025
Host: Ayo Akinwolere
Featured Guests: Adam Crafton, Mark Critchley (The Athletic), Jason Stockwood (Grimsby Town Owner)

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Overview

This episode of The Athletic FC Podcast delves into Manchester United's shocking Carabao Cup upset against fourth-tier Grimsby Town, exploring the fallout for manager Ruben Amorim and the state of the squad. The discussion features expert analysis from The Athletic journalists and direct insight from Grimsby’s owner, highlighting issues of tactics, leadership, and club culture at United, while celebrating Grimsby's remarkable achievement and its wider significance for lower league football.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Manchester United’s State of Crisis

[01:54 – 05:51]

• Historic Low: United knocked out of the Carabao Cup by Grimsby Town, marking their first-ever defeat to fourth-tier opposition. Key signings missed penalties and out-of-favour keepers played crucial roles in Grimsby’s goals.
• Emotional Fallout: Amorim questioned his position post-match, intensifying speculation about his future.
• Psychological Toll: The loss is described as "haunting" (Adam Crafton, 02:22), reminiscent of previous humiliations yet more damaging due to lacking any mitigating context of general club success.

“I think probably the most haunting game that Man United have experienced certainly since… the Europa League final.”
—Adam Crafton [02:22]

• Systemic Issues: Rather than a team of kids, the squad included a significant number of senior, expensive players underperforming.

2. Failures: On the Pitch and in the Market

[05:51 – 11:21]

• Attacking Struggles: New signings (Kunia, Mbuema, Benjamin Sesko) failed to impress. Crafton questions whether the system suits any striker, given many have underperformed.
• Goalkeeper Situation: Persistent errors from both Onana and Bayindir signal a glaring weakness. United’s failure to strengthen in goal is criticized as a “mistake that has now set the tone for the first few weeks.” (Crafton, 08:24)
• Recruitment Issues: United reacting to results with scattergun spending without addressing systemic tactical problems or squad balance.

“You can have goalkeepers that aren’t brilliant... but this is a guy who is directly costing goals on such a regular basis. I mean, it’s scary.”
—Adam Crafton on United’s main goalkeeper [08:16]

3. Ruben Amorim Under the Microscope

[13:07 – 21:23]

• Emotional Leadership: Amorim’s post-match comments suggest the players’ performance was a statement, hinting at a lack of squad buy-in and fueling speculation about his own commitment and future.
• Tactical Inflexibility: Amorim’s rigid system and resistance to change is questioned, especially given repeated failures against lesser opposition.
• Communication Strain: His public ponderings about his role and future are seen as destabilizing. The conversation debates whether his “emotive, romantic” nature is now a liability.

“For the manager to then be so emotional… you then create this round of speculation by being so emotional.”
—Adam Crafton [13:37]

“If it keeps happening, it has to speak to some deeper kernel of truth within him that he isn’t totally happy… and that is a huge question now.”
—Mark Critchley [17:26]

4. The System Problem: Identity vs. Flexibility

[18:17 – 24:56]

• Systemic Rigidity: United’s playing style—anticipated to be revolutionary—now appears stale and inflexible, locking key players (e.g., Fernandez, Amad) into less effective roles.
• Wider Consequences: Tying so much of the club’s structure and decision-making to Amorim’s “project” leaves United in a bind, with extensive buy-in from senior management linking executive fate to his.

“[The system] was really strange to me. You have to have some flexibility around the situation and the opponent you’re facing.”
—Adam Crafton [23:30]

5. Grimsby’s Triumph & Broader Meaning

[27:55 – 42:21]

• David vs. Goliath: Grimsby Town owner Jason Stockwood shares insights into the club’s philosophy, community significance, data-led recruitment, and the emotional and societal impact of the win.
• Symbolism & Opportunity: Stockwood reflects on the role of football clubs as civic institutions and vehicles for local pride and change, especially for post-industrial towns.
• Financial and Cultural Impact: While the financial windfall from a cup win is modest, the broader value for the club, the town’s image, and its people is immense.

“Football clubs… are probably the last civic institutions that are so important to our identity, that are potent still and go across political boundaries…”
—Jason Stockwood [30:34]

• The Pyramid’s Value: Stockwood makes a case for support for the football pyramid, noting that football’s romantic, unpredictable qualities depend on the thriving of clubs at all levels.

“Last night showed that money isn’t a guarantee of success. It definitely helps, but culture, you need the strong culture, great coaches and a plan right, to execute on and heart and soul.”
—Jason Stockwood [42:21]

6. The Path Forward for United

[42:29 – 45:26]

• Immediate Pressure: United’s next game at home vs. Burnley is seen as crucial for Amorim's future.
• Boardroom Dynamics: Ownership (notably Jim Ratcliffe) is reported as intolerant of performances like Grimsby. Patience is running thin.
• Unsustainable Short-termism: Panel notes United’s reactive approach—quick fixes and signings—will not suffice; deeper changes are vital but face structural and cultural obstacles.

“For a long time United have been reactive to this result means that we need to go out and spend more money… more sustainable and more actual results need to come to fruition.”
—Mark Critchley [44:02]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On United’s Culture:
  “Not the first time [Amorim’s] said this… If it keeps happening, it has to speak to some deeper kernel of truth within him that he isn’t totally happy.”
  —Mark Critchley [17:26]

• On Football’s Magic:
  “It just really makes you fall in love with the game again. We couldn’t be happier.”
  —Jason Stockwood, on Grimsby’s win [28:09]

• On Lower League Value:
  “These aren’t businesses, right? Football clubs… are so important to our communities, to our identity, to our sense of hope and aspiration and love and connection as communities...”
  —Jason Stockwood [41:13]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:19–05:51 | United’s defeat: match summary, player/manager lows, the emotional toll | | 05:51–11:21 | Analysis of squad misfires and recruitment issues | | 13:07–15:43 | Amorim’s post-match comments and interpretation | | 15:58–18:31 | Emotional strain, managerial pressure, and public communication | | 18:31–24:56 | Amorim’s system, tactical rigidity, and club strategic consequences | | 27:55–42:21 | Interview: Jason Stockwood on Grimsby’s win, community, and the pyramid | | 42:29–45:26 | Next steps for United and Amorim; institutional challenges |

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Tone & Atmosphere

• Candid, analytical, sometimes incredulous—the discussion is frank, often emotive, and rich in football context.
• Grimsby segment: Uplifting, reflective, and congratulatory, providing a heartfelt counterbalance to United’s gloom.

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Conclusion

This episode captures a unique low in Manchester United’s recent history and explores its deeper relevance: mismanagement, identity crises, and shaky leadership. The uplifting Grimsby narrative provides not just a footballing upset, but a story of hope and community power. The outlook for United remains fraught, setting the stage for a pivotal few weeks for both the manager and the club.

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Transcript

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[B]

The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimwere. How much worse can it get for Manchester United? Three games into the new season and Groomsby Town have knocked them out of the Carabao Cup. Does Amarin survive this? Joining us today we have the Athletics, Adam Crafton. We've also got Mark Critchley as well. And later on we'll be joined by Grimsby Town owner Jason Stockwood.

[A]

Charles Vernon, who saw the goal, he took the touch and the finish. You'd struggle to know who was the 73 million pounds striker on the field last night. The way he took that goal.

[B]

Before we get into any of that, let's lay down the state of play. Manchester United have lost to fourth tier opposition for for the first time ever, two of their big money signings missed a penalty penalties. Their manager couldn't even bring himself to watch their out of favor goalkeeper returned to play a part in both Grimsby goals and after the game, Ruben Amarim questioned his own position. Adam, with your Manchester United hat on, how did you feel watching that match?

[C]

I think probably the most haunting game that Man United have experienced certainly since since the Europa League final.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

It's obviously hugely humiliating, embarrassing. You can use whatever adjective you want. I think where it's so damaging is, you know, you've had this period where the club, perhaps Amarim himself, perhaps the players who remain, the players who join the fans to an extent have convinced themselves that things might get better. And this was just. I can't really think of a worse performance in terms of. You take the first hour of the game, at least it was, it was really bad in pretty much every way. It wasn't a team of kids, there was a couple of young players in defence, but it wasn't, you know, as if they'd put in a bunch of 20 year olds. And it was a really bad night that kind of got worse and worse. I mean, the weather kind of added to the scene of it. You know, you've got this, this coach who is drowning really visibly and figuratively quivering in the dugout as his team take penalties, even the penalties themselves. Will talk about this. You know, you've got a striker that's just been bought for 70 odd million, who's the last guy to take the penalty. And then you've got the manager coming out after the game really giving major hints which either question his players commitment or. And also appear to say that in some ways his future may be in doubt as well. So it's a pretty cataclysmic evening by every measure.

[B]

Yeah, I mean crit. Please give some props to Grimsby Town for their grit, their poise and just taking the game to Manchester United. I mean, how hard is it to see a team like Manchester United lose such a game?

[D]

Look, I've been asked a lot of times on podcasts like these over the last few years whether we've reached the nadir. And I guess given that I keep being asked it, I suppose we haven't. Right. I'm sort of being goaded into doing the Mick McCarthy being like, can it get any worse? But all the evidence until this point suggests that it can and that it probably will. I remember the last time I think I was on this podcast, I was answering questions about how there was a happier mood within the camp, that it was more optimistic that there was positivity heading into a new season and that those were the vibes from the pre season tour. I certainly tried to treat that with a healthy dose of skepticism at the same time because there's always more positivity ahead of a new season. But colleagues of mine were over there in the us, people were talking. When you spoke to people, there was something to that. And then this morning, the messages and the feedback that I've had overnight for people to speak to this morning, it's just very different in tone and it's staggering. Really though, it's the 28th of August and the transfer window isn't closed. We're three games in and we've already reached a point that feels so familiar to various points that we've been at over the years under different Manchester United managers. We've been asked is this the worst cup result that they have in their history? And the obvious parallel would be the 4 nil against MK Dons back in 2014, the last time they were in the League cup second round. I remember the Leeds game in 2010 when Bedford scored beat them at Old Trafford. I think they lost 3 nil to York City in 1995. So you can list off a ream of results that rival it as maybe one of the most embarrassing in a cup sense in United's history. But those results, they were always like aberrations, right. In largely successful periods. And I think the worrying thing about last night was the question is where does this now leave Amorim? Where does this leave United? And that is a very uncertain question.

[B]

Yeah, don't worry, we'll be talking about Amari in just a bit. But I just want to talk about, I guess the attacking prowess. I don't know if pro S is probably the right word to use right now for the likes of Kunia Mbuema and also Benjamin Chesko. Adam, what did you make of their performance?

[C]

It was Shesko's first start. He wasn't very good. Equally, I think people may increasingly come to the view that certain positions in this system, because we're seeing a lot of different personnel now attempt to play in this system. You know, we saw Rasmus Hjlund like a shadow of the player that he was never fantastic for Man United, but he was showing glimpses of a player that might be someone and really struggled in this system. And I think Sesko so far in the glimpses we've had of him, I don't think he's at full match speed yet. So it's hard to make a judgment. But I do wonder how easy it is to play that role at the level that Man United want to be at. And also the central midfield role as well. You know, there's two in central midfield. We're seeing a lot of very, very expensive players, find it really difficult. So I think there's questions over. Is this about personnel? Is it about system? I think it also comes back to you playing a fourth division team, right, Like Grimsby drew against Accrington at the weekend, they've drawn against Harrogate this this season. They are unbeaten in the league by the way, so not an easy place to go.

[B]

Also unbeaten against Manchester United Springs for you down in the last few matches. Come on, give him some credit.

[C]

That's true since the stats, like since 1930 or something, isn't it?

[B]

We've skated past that, don't worry.

[C]

But with the attacking players, I mean. And Burma scored a goal. I thought he was probably the brightest of them, Kanye. It was interesting watching him during the game because he sort of started really brightly against Arsenal, against Fulham, and you can see him just sort of being dragged into this quagmire. Both the visible quagmire on the pitch, but also the metaphorical quagmire. You could see him almost starting to become sort of stressed and anxious on the field, obviously culminating in missed penalties. Anyone can miss a penalty. That can happen. Won't worry too much about that. I don't think the story of last night is going after Man United's new attacking players. It was a performance where go to the meme of the basics of football. Losing duels, not competing, the passing was terrible. And then, I mean, the goalkeeper, honestly, he's the worst goalkeeper I've ever seen in 30 years of supporting Man United. Worst regular goalkeeper. I won't include Taiko.

[B]

Can I say, at Ajax, he was great. At Inter, he was great. I'm not saying he's a bad goalkeeper necessarily, but he just doesn't seem to have shown it at Manchester United.

[C]

You can have goalkeepers that aren't brilliant. If you go back to, I don't know, a Roy Carroll, a Tim Howard, but this is a guy who is directly costing goals on such a regular basis. I mean, it's scary. And obviously the alternative of Bayern Deer, unfortunately, has come with issues as well, from set pieces. So I find it really difficult to understand that Man United have gone into this season without signing a goalkeeper. I don't think that is, to use an American phrase like Monday morning or Thursday morning quarterbacking, hindsighting the situation at all. I think most people at the end of last season looked at Man United and said they needed a goalkeeper. And I think that's a mistake that has now set the tone for the first few weeks.

[B]

Yeah, well, we spoke about it yesterday. David Ornstein Critch was basically talking about Manchester United potentially being on the look for a goalkeeper. Is it fair to say that, like, the striking position probably wasn't their biggest issue, that there are actually a few more issues on the field that probably needed addressing before that?

[D]

Well, look, I think it's important to remember that they were ending last season in the context of 44 Premier League goals, which was the fewest that they'd scored in the Premier League era. So you look at that and you think, well, that is certainly an issue that needs to be addressed. As much as goalkeeper was, I think the question mark has to be do you address a lack of goals by signing goal scorers? That sounds like a bit of a daft question to pose, but goals don't exist in isolation, right? They come from chances that are created. And United weren't a particularly creative team last season. Too much of that burden fell on Bruno Fernandes. You look at the way that they try to build up from out the back as much as they do try to build up from out the back. It's striking actually over the last. We're talking about goalkeepers. It's striking how over the last six months or so, it's all been long kicks out the back. You think of the game against Fulham on Sunday. What was the one chance that they actually clear cut chance that they actually created within that game? It was a binder long goal kick straight out from the back that Kunya had this miraculous touch brought down and a shot on goal from that sort of thing is not the methodical, repeatable patterns of play that people thought we were going to get with Reuben Amrum, thought they were going to get with Eric 10 Hag, etc. Etc. And this is becoming a pattern and I don't think it's as simple as saying, well, this guy scored a lot of goals last season, this guy scored a lot of goals, we signed them and we fix our problem. It doesn't add up. I agree with Adam completely that there was a clear need at goalkeeper. They didn't address it. They may still address it before the end of the window. We know that they're in talks for Senny Lemons at Antwerp, but there's no agreement on personal terms yet. There's no agreement on fee, I think. But last last night highlighted why United are in that market now. I don't think it changed anyone's opinions about Anana. I don't think it changed anyone's opinions about buying Dia the last few games either. It's clear that there's been an issue there and you've seen momentum build over the last few couple of weeks when Bayern D has made a mistake against Arsenal and there's been these question marks over Inana. It may yet get done. But look, there's not one position that you look at in this United squad and say, well, if you get that, everything's fine, everything's fixed. There's too many of those.

[B]

All right, next, let's talk. Ruben Amarin.

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[C]

I think the players spoke really loud.

[B]

About what they want today. We are in the moment that we make a lot of changes, we try to fight a lot of things, but then when we have these moments, we.

[C]

Need to show up.

[B]

If we don't show up, you can feel it that something has to change and you are not going to change 22 players again. Adam, he says something has to change and you're not going to change 22 players again. What do you read from that?

[C]

Far too emotional if you were to just step back from the heat of last night. Right. Man United have had three games this season. They've played pretty well against Arsenal, the team that I think most people think will be first or second in the league this season. Probably not a game you'd expect them to win. And against Fulham, away, they've drawn, right. It's not a disaster. They are 36 games to go. They're three points off the Champions League places. Right. And they've had a disastrous night. But I think for the managers to then be so emotional, right, And I'm not making out that he should be coming out and saying everything's great or it will be fine for him to be suggesting that, you know, the players were sending a message of some sort, but not really explaining what their message is, but implying. It seemed to me he was implying they downed tools in some ways or that they were unhappy with something that he was asking them to do and then suggesting that things will get sorted during the international break. Well, during the international break, the transfer window's closed and the only thing that can change at that point is the manager. So you then create this round of speculation by being so emotional. And we know that previously he has basically gone to the club when things were bad at a certain point last season and essentially said, you know, should I be carrying on? So I think that's a problem because when he's at his best, as he was, you know, I was out there in the States in pre season, he can be very charismatic when he's calm and collected and explaining his vision. But at his worst, the energy that he creates is frenzied. And I can't imagine how much pressure that now puts on the team in front of the home fans at Old Trafford in another banana skin home to Burnley.

[A]

Right.

[C]

In terms of. That's a game that I look at and think, on the one hand, I think United won't change the manager because they're so far deep into the Amarin project. But I also can't imagine them keeping a manager that loses consecutively against Grimsby and against Burnley at home. It's almost unfathomable. So it's now created that situation where there's going to be a blaze of uncertainty. And that's on him.

[B]

Yeah. It's not first time he's shown emotion. I mean, all the last season there were definite moments of critch. But, you know, we often talk about the shirt weighing heavy on players at Manchester United. Could this also be an indication of the shirt weighing heavy on a manager as well?

[D]

Yeah, I think so. And I think, as Adam says, he's an emotive person, he's an open person, he's honest to a fault a lot of the time. I see no reason not to believe him when he says things like this. When he says that he's considering his future, he's not holding anything back. And if anything, he's probably sharing over a little bit too much. Right. And you're right, he said it before. He intimated at various points last season that he might have a more enjoyable life if he wasn't the Manchester United manager. Post Europa League final, he said he'd go without a conversation about compensation if that's what the hierarchy wanted. Now, whether that was him saying, you don't need to pay me, or it was him saying, it's in the contract, actually, we don't need to have a conversation about it. It'll be £8 million or whatever, please, I don't know. But he's clearly entertaining these things in public. And not even just in public. I mean, Macaulay. Laurie Whitwell was writing in his big end of the season read how these noises were being about him walking. Were going on internally as well and were taken quite seriously at points. So I see no reason to disbelieve him. I think the difference from last night is bringing the players into it. Him saying, the players spoke really loud about what they want. Again, as Adam said at the top of the programme, that brings in the question of how committed these players are. And we're talking in a context of five players within this squad already being bombed out of it because they weren't seen to be aligned with the club's direction and moving forwards. I mean, after that, after United did that, they said, we're looking to build a squad focused on winning the biggest trophies at Manchester United, and this is part of that process. So last night's eleven was drawn for that squad and that is apparently aligned to this vision. And yet the manager comes out afterwards and says and sort of brazenly questions their level of commitment and questions it in a way that can be read about their commitment to him, as though he's questioning that and what he wants to do. So I think, look, it's not the first time he's said this and you've got to try and believe him when he says it. I almost feel like if it keeps being a repeated thing, then it becomes more and more of a problem. I know when he was asked about this in the US during the preseason tour, and he said, look, I'm just, yeah, I'm an emotive guy, I'm a romantic guy. Sometimes it's my ego that gets in the way and makes me say these things. But if it keeps happening, it has to speak to some deeper kernel of Truth within him that he isn't totally happy, I guess, in doing the job. And that is a huge question now.

[B]

Adam, is it ego that's basically stopping him from changing his tactics fundamentally? Because I can't stop seeing that image of him on the side, just fiddling with the tactics on that board. How defining do you think that image will be?

[C]

I mean, it looked like he was playing battleships with those little magnets. I have a slightly different view on that, which is that all these kind of idiosyncrasies, right, Messing around with the tactics board in the dugout, if you're winning and doing that, people would be really excited saying, what an amazing tactician, Right. It'd be a detail in an athletic. Long read about how meticulous he is about. Even in the middle of the game, he's checking this stuff.

[D]

It's got my number.

[C]

Even, you know, when he's not watching the penalty shootout, which I didn't love. Other managers do the same. I think Jurgen Klopp did it at some point as well. That's another thing where if it all goes well and it's a Champions League penalty shootout and you win it, then it's fine. But it's fourth division in the reign at Grimsby, and it looks like you're quivering and hiding. So a lot of that stuff is optics. I think there is a deeper issue about the system and the intransigence, the inflexibility around that.

[A]

But.

[C]

But he was hired knowing that's what he was going to do. He's never said to people, I won't do this. However, no one ever thought that, you know, if you just take a step back and assess this really, really objectively, right? Was it seven wins in the Premier League out of 29 games, losing the Europa League final? He keeps saying they played well in that final. They didn't. Alienating and kicking out Garnacho Rashford. TBD on what happens with Kobbie Mainoo losing against Grimsby. You look at the squad composition. If a new coach comes in, who wants to play 4, 3, 3. Well, they would probably want Garnacho, and he's probably on the motorway now heading down to Chelsea. And they might want to play with fullbacks. And, I mean, would Patrick Du get a game under a different coach? You know, he's so specific for what Ruben Amarim's trying to do. So there are complicated layers to this, and it goes beyond Amarim. It was really interesting. It was put to me in the summer when they're out in Chicago by someone that if the momentum of this pre season, this better feeling. By the way, the pre season wasn't that good. They drew three games, one against Everton, one against Leeds, one against Fiorentina. It was a bit like they'd beaten Real Madrid, Bayern Munich and Barcelona in some of the feedback. But there was a sense of momentum and unity and if that had gone right, it could have been like rocket fuel and really kind of sent them forwards. But if it goes wrong, there's so much now that is tied to Amarim. You know, the CEO Berada was very influential in that appointment. I know he said in an interview that technical staff were behind that, but he was very much behind that as well. Does that then mean that the club have as much faith in Berada and if they don't have as much faith in Berarda, what does that then mean from all these other people from Manchester City, like Jason Wilcox, sporting director as well? You know, a lot of people's success at Manchester United are tied to the success of Ruben Amarin. And I think that's probably what buys him time, to be honest, at the moment.

[B]

Okay, you look at Grimsby Town and you look at a team that in some senses, some might say showed composure, character, often words associated with an old version of Manchester United. And we talk about Amarim and this is to you both, crit, please go first. Do you think he's got it in him to instill these values in these players fundamentally? Because I do wonder how difficult it is to come back from defeats like this and still believe that this is the guy that's going to lead you to victory.

[D]

I feel like that is an open question at the moment. I think that he has taken a lot of very bold decisions and decisions that some people won't like. Again, you come back to the treatment of defied players this summer. I think if you ask most United fans, they would say they weren't particularly bothered about seeing those players leave. And fair enough, and maybe it was the end for them. But to do it in such a way which has probably had knock on effects and consequences for United's ability to sell them and the value that they're getting for those players in the market as well, that is a huge step and it's one that people, not everybody, will agree with, I'm sure within the club. Then you look at the treatment of somebody like Kobbie Mainoo. Now look, he played last night. The hold of yesterday was a big frenzy about Kobbie Mainoo and his future. And the past few days have Been right. That all seems to have subsided now in the wake of the result and this seismic event of United falling back into crisis. But that is an ongoing thing as well, and people would question that. He needs to build a defining kind of vision and aura and narrative around his way of doing things to bring people along with him. And if I'm totally honest, I don't think I've ever really had a full sense that that has happened at any point over the last nine months or so. If you think back to the comment about this being the worst United side in history, like, whether he meant it as a criticism of the players or not, that's certainly how it was taken and therefore it doesn't help. Right. I think moments like that have hindered him along the way and so it's really difficult to see he turns that around. I think the only way of turning it around is by getting results.

[C]

Right. Yeah. I think also the system is an issue. Last night, they're playing against Grimsby away. Grimsby were knackered. The pitch was heavy, it was sodden. You could see them after every tackle pulling up with cramp. And I think there was a point like Mason Mount was left wing back and every overload that they would create, where you've got the spare man, would have Matthijs De Ligt coming out as left centre back. Now, Matthijs De Ligt's a good defender in good form, but if you're going to have a guy overloading against a fourth division team who are absolutely exhausted in the 70th minute, why do you need five defenders on the pitch or not even five defenders on the pitch, setting the team up in a way that it still looks like they had five defenders. That does seem really strange to me. Right. You have to have some flexibility around the situation and the opponent that you're facing. And I don't think it's contradictory to be saying under previous managers that Man United didn't have an identity or system and now we're saying, like, oh, they're too rigid. I think there is a middle ground here, right. Where you can have an identity, but there is also some fluidity within that. That's not to excuse what we saw in the first 60 minutes, but I still thought it was a redeemable situation, even with five, six minutes to go. And the reality is United still only looked really dangerous from set pieces. It was only when Maguire is in the box. As for much of the end of last season where United actually looked like.

[D]

Scoring a goal and at Fulham on Sunday was the same thing. The best chance that they had second half there was when Maguire comes on. I think you're right. I think that one sort of underappreciated subplot of this summer is United's choices in the transfer market have essentially locked two of the best players last season out of their natural positions. So Kunyun and Bouma arrive and that means that Fernandez moves into midfield and Amad goes to right wing back. That is quite a major recalibration of your squad that carries a lot of risk and affects directly two players that most United fans would have come away from last season and said they've been our best two players. They've been the only two players who've looked like they could make something happen at any point. Now to be fair, Fernandez played a lot of midfield last season as well, particularly from January onwards once Mainoo dropped out the team and he can perform there on an individual basis. We saw that he was the best player, but that hasn't produced results and that I think is one compromise that has been made this summer in the direction that not just Amarin but the hierarchy, the recruitment as well has taken. That actually forces him more into a corner that is very difficult to get out of now. And that is going to be another interesting kind of subplot over the next few weeks.

[B]

Okay, well next let's get the Grimsby Town perspective. We've been joined by Grimsby owner Jason Stockwoods to talk about how his side created possibly the biggest shock of the season. If you work as a manufacturing facilities engineer, installing a new piece of equipment can be as complex as the machinery itself. From prep work to alignment and testing.

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[B]

We are now joined by Grimsby Town owner Jason Stockwood. Jason, so good to have you with us. Some might say you battered Manchester United yesterday. Talk to me about the last 12 hours.

[A]

Oh, let's get all the fishing puns out of the way, really.

[B]

I had to do it. I had to do it.

[A]

Yeah, look what a magical evening. It's. We got involved with the club about four years ago and you know, you think of football as a metaphor for life and this without going out of the cliches, this idea of David versus Goliath, you know, a club of our resources against the almost seemingly infinite resources against Manchester United have been able to do it. It just really makes you fall in love with the game again. We couldn't be happier.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. What happens when a team like yours does beat Manchester United in terms of firstly, your team morale, but secondly in terms of the noise that sort of starts circulating around the club?

[A]

Yeah, we, I mean, we. When we came and got involved with the club, it was sort of the dual purpose. One, we were fans originally, which was fortunate that we had the careers that allowed us the resources to really improve the outcomes on the pitch. But it's all in service of we're really trying to change the narrative on the town. We're a post industrial fishing town associated with the fishing industry that's gone away. We're proud of that history and now we're navigating towards the green energy revolution that we're right in the heart of. So the football club is part of putting a new story and narrative into the town. So being on the world stage, being invited onto podcasts like this, being on CBS in the us, being on BBC this morning just gives us a chance to tell that story, that more positive story which is real in the town. And just seeing, you know, the excellence that we showed last night, it wasn't a lucky win, it was everything that we're about we're trying to use, you know, progressive football, a brilliant coach, brilliant CEO, and raise the standard of the town and the club. And last night puts us in the spot as we wanted. So it's, it's a real opportunity. We're taking off the opportunity to use this, talking to people just to say, look, you know, have a look at Grimsby again, but think differently. It's a town on this deal.

[C]

Jason, it's really interesting in the middle of the game, I think at the point you were 2 nil up. I had a look at the Google search trends, which tell you how often something is being searched, and there was obviously a very big spike on Grimsby being searched globally as kind of the world took notice of this. But the biggest spike before that was Brexit back in kind of 2016 with the fishing town. So. So you've mentioned in terms of changing perceptions of the town and where the town's going. Can you, I suppose, just talk a little bit about what the tangible impact is from a financial point of view, both for the club and also just for how it changes people's perceptions of Grimsby in some way?

[A]

Oh, there's a lot in that, Adam. So I, after Brexit, I actually went back to university as a fellow at Oxford to think about these issues. So I'm from the town. I'm proud to be from the town. My career's taken me away and. And I really didn't understand Brexit. I didn't understand why it had happened. And so I went, I spent two years thinking and writing about it. And what I realized is, and this is my own diagnosis, but it's taken from a lot of reading of other great writers around. We've lost some of our civic institutions over the last 50 years that bind our communities. And Andrew, my co investor and I, our bet was like, the football club and football clubs in general are probably the last civic institutions that are so important to our identity, that are potent still and go across political boundaries, go across gender, ethnicity, whatever vendor of identity, we can come together around football and still be proud and have a common purpose together. So it sounds slightly grandiose, but it was part of why we're doing this is like we think you can create a better narrative about a place by identifying with some positive professionalism. And the stuff like last night, on an economic point of view, I think if you tell that story and you don't get into sort of the lazy tropes about, you know, Grimsby's been the boy of a lot of jokes for years. A lot of documentaries have come up and told the stories of kind of like poverty porn, where they go and show the poorest parts of the community. It's a beautiful place on the coast in northeast Lincolnshire. It is stunning. And we've all got those bad elements and elements that need some work in a town, but it's a town with great character, great people, great humor. And so, again, we think sport is the perfect mechanism to try and exemplify those values. Right. And tell the story that we want to tell. And then in hard currency. Like, it wasn't a big earner for us last night, you know, it was more about, you know, when draw came out, people said, would you have liked at Old Trafford? And once you get past the. Yeah, well, mind playing. There you go. Actually, why it was so brilliant last night is because it was at home and the world gets to see where we live and what we're about. And the pitch looked beautiful. The stadium, the old stadium looked beautiful. The crowd did their job, you know, was the genuine cliche. 12 man. And so the economic value is one thing, but like in the sort of balance sheet of your life, it's not monetary. It's just all the effort and positivity that will come out of this is worth its weight in gold as well as. As well as reaffirming your faith in sort of the romance of what sport is. Right. As well. So, Adam, that was a long winded answer to.

[C]

That's a good answer.

[A]

That was probably the short answer as well. There's a lot more to that.

[D]

Jason, can you talk us to us a little bit about some of your players, especially the goalkeeper, Christy Pim. I heard a story last night that he turned to the United away end and said, I'm a United fan. And they said, well, why don't you let one in then? But he played out of his skin. People won't really know about him. Tyrell Warren as well. He used to be at United. Right, so who. Tell us a bit more about the squad and some stories that we should know about there.

[A]

Yes. So Christie was on itv. Someone sent me the clip this morning where he said, yeah, he says, I'm a United fan. I'm fuming, partly fuming. I saved that penalty, you know, which is a lovely moment and admission from him. So. And actually Charles Vernon, who don't know if you saw the goal, he took the touch and the finish. You'd struggle to know who was the 73 million pound strike on the field last night, the way he took that goal And I don't know if you saw the bicycle that Sesko tried where he just air. I mean, yeah. So Charles looked like he was worth 73 million last night. And we've assembled a squad. I don't know if you've seen any of the articles, but we were really fortunate a few years ago that when we played Brighton in the Cup, I got to meet Tony Bloom. And because I'm a technologist by background and entrepreneur, we asked Tony if we could use their data. And in the moment he said no about it. But six months later they must have done diligence on it. And they're Jamestown analytics, which is the company that manages the data for Brighton and a few only a handful of teams globally. They said they'd allow us to use it. So we built this incredibly fortunate partnership with Jamestown where we look analytically around the globe for players. So you saw players last night. David Gezzatori came on, sorry, David Torre, we recruited him from the Faroe Islands. We've got Jason Sam Thorson on the bench, who's an Icelandic player. Christie came in slightly older goalkeepers, incredibly highly rated through the data. So I don't like to single out players specifically, but even people like Jace Cab got from Choro, like Jay will be, you know, one of the best players in our division. No doubt about he's already showing that. But the data tells us that story. So. But what, what people, you know, misheard for me a couple of years ago when I started talking about data was data gets you halfway, you know, tells you objectively on certain characteristics and variables, how good their physical attributes are, the playing attributes are. And then the, as importantly the other 50% is the coaching is the culture is the attitude is the character of the players. And I think what we've got now for the first time, this because we, a bunch of players that we were, you know, trying to improve on and out of contract, this is the first time we've got a. A squad that's fully data led. But importantly it's based on the progressive coaching of David Artel, who, who is the coach from data point of view, the most improved players in the football league. And I think he showed some of that last night.

[C]

Yeah, there was an amazing stat that I think Ian Dennis from the BBC tweeted saying the Cesco fee alone was 13 times Grimsby's turning over last season. I mean that just kind of brings home the gap. I'm just wondering your emotions within the game at the point where the rain was really coming down and the pitch Was slowing down a bit. Were you worried at all that that game might get abandoned or get delayed in some way?

[A]

Spot on, Adam. My wife turned to me. My wife's a really nervous watcher. I was pretty relaxed most day because it was a free hit for us last night, right? No one expected everyone expect. In fact, I came over on the train and I heard some United fans talking about, oh, this should be a piece of. We're going to wall up this long. I was remembering, drove home. I was like, that was nice, but my wife's a really nervous watcher. And she turned around to me, it was raining and said, you know, if he gets called off, it was tuna low, wasn't it? He says, if it gets called up, do we get the win? And I was like, no, it'd be awful if he's called off, we have to play again. And so, two things. So, one, that was the only time I was nervous through the game was I was thinking it was coming down. It was biblical. You know, there was lightning in the background. It was like. It was such a theatrical setting. And then we've spent a lot of money on the pitch and just extended shout out to our ground staff. It has never looked better. And when that rain come down, you know, it didn't retain a lot of the water, so the drainage system would put. I mean, it's boring for people to hear, but the stuff I know about pitches and drainage, you wouldn't care to talk about. But it was. It was.

[D]

I spent.

[A]

I said to them before the game, just shout out to Martin and that team. It was. They've done such a great job. And then. And then to see that rain come down, you know, on biblical proportions and the surface still be playable. But, yeah, when it started to lighten up, I was. I was very relieved. And eventually my wife went in the penalty. She couldn't take it anymore. She went in, she went inside and sat with a cup of tea, I think.

[C]

Was she with Ruben, not watching the penalties?

[A]

No comment. No comment on that. I'll tell you one funny quick thing, though. So with Manchester United coming to town, they sent us almost a rider for the manager and was like, where's the manager's change room? And I was like, the manager's changing room. Plus, it's the back of his car. The manager has a changing room in Man United. Things they were expecting. And so, yeah, I thought that was quite amusing. I thought they clearly didn't know what they were coming into when the players came off the bus onto the pitch. I was. I stood around and the United players did not look like they were up for it. You could tell, like, this was, you know, it's all the cliches about, you got all those incredible talents. And look, I'm a massive fan of the Premier League. The individual talent on display last night was extraordinary. The team, finally performance, you know, speaks for itself, I think, from United. But it was seeing them coming in, I was like, they did not look like they wanted to be there, which I, you know, I really enjoyed.

[B]

Yeah. Just before you go, I saw a comment on social media I thought was really funny, saying Grimsby Town played their second team because they've got a big game against Bristol Rovers this weekend, which I thought was quite funny. But, I mean, how do you genuinely manage expectation moving forward? Because, I mean, this is a monumental result for. For the team. You've still got a league that you want to offend, obviously win as well or maybe climb to the next one. How do you manage expectation for the rest of the season at this point?

[A]

So that's the manager's job, to manage expectations. I'm going to enjoy every single minute of this. I keep saying to people like, we've. We look the town and the club has had a tough sort of 20 years watching it as a fan, so you've got to take the good days when you can, you know. So for me, I'm an optimist by nature. I've had a career as an entrepreneur doing stuff I wouldn't be otherwise. And so I'm loving this. I'm saying, look, look, I went into that game thinking we could win, which is ridiculous, right from you look at our relative resources. But we've got a. And, you know, and importantly a coach that is improving players and the people that are coming to us, we know they've got the quality and if they improve, we'll be a match for anyone. And we showed that last night. So I'm going to get carried away. I'm going to love this and keep going. And look, it'll be as exciting against Bristol Rovers on Saturday and it was as exciting against Accrington last week, so. But it was a magical night and they don't come around that often, so you've got to enjoy them, I think.

[C]

Jason, just one last one for me. First of all, will there be any kind of treat for the coach and the players as a result of this? And also, so there's obviously so much talk about the pyramid and the value of the pyramid. We see the Premier League trying to. Well, the EFL trying to come to a deal with the Premier League that seems to just go on and on and on. How important is that that the Premier League recognises the value of every team within that ecosystem?

[A]

Well, we saw it last night. Adebloc, We've been a big proponent of the independent regulator in the UK and I've written and we've lobbied quite hard for that and it's happened, right, this Labour government has passed that through law and so that is there will be a financial settlement if the Premier League don't make enough to the fl, then David Cogan, as the new chairman of the independent regulator, has the backstop powers to enforce one. Right. So it's in their interest to put something on the table. Slightly grandiose against apologies, but I make a moral argument for this is like we know and last night showed the Premier League, for all its brilliance as a product, which it is, and we should be so proud of it as a country is built on over 140 years of work of 92plus teams, right? We all own that. And to just be because the music stops now doesn't mean they should take all the profit and all the benefit of that. You need clubs like Grimsby, you need a competitive structure because it means something that they don't really exist without the promotion and relegation. And quite frankly, half of our time as a club in our 148 year history was either in the top two divisions. So at some point we've all been there, right? So I think there's a moral argument that it's built on the shoulders of every single club. And then the important thing is these aren't businesses, right? Football clubs has shown by that pitch invasion last night. These are so important to our communities, to our identity, to our sense of hope and aspiration and love and connection as communities is that these are assets worth protecting for future generations. And I think it's a tip of the iceberg for the Premier Leagues to be putting more cash down into it. Importantly, there needs to be cost controls around it, there needs to be better owners and directors, test all that's coming. But I think last night showed that money isn't a guarantee of success. It definitely helps, but culture, you need the strong culture, great coaches and a plan right, to execute on and heart and soul. And I think, you know, last night, just for the romantics amongst us, just shows what might be possible and why. Why the lower leagues are so important. Because, you know, it means so much to towns like ours up and down the country.

[B]

Yeah, well, you definitely brought some joy to so many of rival fans last night. Jason, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate your time.

[A]

Appreciate your time, guys. Thanks a lot.

[B]

Yeah. Adam, let's bring this back to Manchester United. Burnley, Old Trafford on Saturday for Manchester United ahead of the international break. City and then it's Chelsea as well. Is it win or bus for Amarim at Burnley.

[C]

Might be a better question for him because he's the person who is, you know, giving these, these hints and speculation. Look, I, I definitely didn't get the impression in pre season that Manchester United would be pulling the trigger on Ruben Amarim after two defeats, you know, or if they didn't get a result in the first couple of games. I do think they have seen this as, as a medium to long term project. However, you can't ignore some of the things that we saw last night for sure. And I did get a message during the game saying regardless of what you're being told, Jim Ratcliffe won't accept this. He won't accept what he saw last night carrying on, moving forwards. So I don't think anyone really at Manchester United would be able to accept that. I don't think that's a controversial revelation. So I'm fudging it because we, we don't know, to be honest.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Like let's, let's see what happens against Burnley. The problem you'll have is there's a very long time between Burnley and his next game, man City and Chelsea. So it's not about to get any easier for Amarima over the next few weeks. So there's a, there's a bit of a storm coming and there was a storm last night and if the good times are coming, then it feels like there might be some bad times on the way for first.

[D]

I think that what needs to happen this weekend is that by 5pm on Saturday they've got three points and then 7pm on Monday they've got a new goalkeeper. Maybe I think that's the baseline. But it's exactly what we've been saying throughout the show, that that doesn't really fix anything. Right. For a long time United have been reactive to this result means that we need to go out and spend more money. Things are fine if we win on Saturday or if we don't. It's been too reactive for such a long time that more sustainable and more actual results need to come to fruition. Otherwise there's going to be trouble for Amarim. I think the next couple of weeks are going to be interesting. It gives him a lot of time to think. He says it gives him time to sort things out. He says that they need to change things. As Adam said earlier in the program, there's not a lot that can change during an international break, apart from the identity of a manager or maybe the system. But we know he's not going to change the system, right? So it's going to be an interesting period over the next couple. I'm still flabbergasted that it's come this early. It feels like a bit too soon for my own sanity. I don't know about Ruben Amarims, but we're already at that stage. And when we're at that stage, everything's just a little bit fraught, a little bit tense. And I expect it will still feel that whatever happens this weekend and whatever happens on Monday.

[B]

All right, cheers guys. Mark, Adam and Jason, thanks so much for your time. And also for more on Manchester United, you can of course, of course listen to Talk of the Devils. I think I can hear Andy Mitten seething in his chair right now. That's it from us for now. Matt Davis Adams will be with you tomorrow for the preview. Looking ahead at all the weekend's action, including Arsenal as they go to Anfield. See you soon.

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