Loading summary
Transcript52 lines
- [00:00]
Jake Stauch
It's smart to always have a few financial goals and a really smart one. You can set earning cash back on what you buy every day. And with Discover, you can get this. Discover automatically matches all the cash back you've earned at the end of your first year. Seriously, all of it. And we trust you to make smart decisions. After all, you listen to this show see terms@discover.com creditcard this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [00:44]
I'm Jake Stauch, co founder and CEO of Cervel. We built Cerval to automate the IT work that slows companies down. Onboarding, password resets, accessed applications. My laptop stopped working. While employees wait for help, their real work is put on hold. It desperately wants to automate this work. And that's why they need Serval. You just tell Serval what you want to automate in plain English and it's built. No drag and drop workflows, no expensive consultants. Employees get unblocked and IT teams go from drowning in tickets to building what actually matters. With Cerval, it becomes the AI engine power powering the entire company. This is a new way to run it. We guarantee you'll automate 50% of all tickets and we'll prove it to you in a free four week pilot. Go to cerval.comacast that's S E R V A L.comacast.
- [01:47]
IO Akimolere
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC PodC with me, IO Akimolere. Southampton have been expelled from the championship playoff final after being caught spying on opponents. They'll also start next season with a points deduction. So how has Spygate cost Saints a place in the Premier League? Joining us for this one from the Athletic, we've got our senior football news reporter, Matt Slater. And all the way from New York, you've also got Adam Crafton as well. All right, so on Tuesday night, Southampton were expelled from the EFL championship playoffs after admitting spying on other sides. On Wednesday, their appeal against the decision failed. Matt, so much to get into on this one. Firstly, just put some flesh on the bone for us on what on earth has gone on here.
- [02:40]
Matt Slater
All right, I was trying to do a quick timeline. So for people who have no idea what we're talking about, this is the second tier of English football. The championship. Top two get promoted automatically. Teams that finish third, fourth, fifth and sixth go into a playoff. Third place, sixth, fourth place, fifth. Two legs home and away. Middlesbrough and Southampton, fourth and fifth. Their first leg was at Middlesbrough on May 9th. On May 7th, two days before. Daily Mail. Hats off with I think the scoop so far of the year, certainly in terms of sports news. Amazing story. Spy caught in the bushes filming training at Borough. For people who don't know the geography of England, Southampton and Middlesbrough are other ends of the country. The game is two days later. The first leg, nil. Nil. Played under a cloud. As you can imagine, that cloud grew as EFL announced or confirmed that they were one. Looking into this and other, everybody else jumps on the story. So the second leg was on the Saturday the 12th. An enormous amount of attention going into this. All the usual fan banter. Southampton fans dressed up as bushes and binoculars and the lot. And it all seemed, you know, kind of good natured. But, you know, the, the feelings between the two clubs were frayed, put it that way. Very tight game. Southampton won 2 1, an extra time. Borough missed loads of chances in the first half and then we get those to the hearings this week, Tuesday. So really on an expedited basis, an independent panel with the EFL acting as prosecutor and Southampton as defendant, it goes to an independent three person panel. They rule that, yeah, this is pretty egregious cheating. There is a very specific law which we're going to get into that Southampton broke and therefore they should be thrown out of the playoffs. Overturning that result, Borough go to the final where they'll play Hull, who won the other semi final, but also because they fessed up to two other instances of cheating during the season, they're going to be docked two points, if you like, for each of those instances next season. So expulsion from the final, which is this shot at promotion, which is often described as the most valuable, lucrative single one off game in global football. This is all to do with the amount of guaranteed CV money you'd earn by being promoted and starting next season on minus four points. Oh, and then, sorry, then there was an appeal and they lost the appeal. So all happened incredibly quickly.
- [05:10]
IO Akimolere
I mean, it all sounds super dramatic, Adam. This is definitely an incident that's triggered a whole heap of memes across social media. I saw Gonna Soros peering into the Burnley training session from the Arsenal fans. But I mean, all jokes aside, what do you make of the length Southampton have gone to to spy on their opponents?
- [05:29]
Adam Crafton
I mean, it's pretty extraordinary. I Mean, you know, just some of the lengths that we've reported they've gone to. I mean, you had the Southampton and look, I mean we should say. I mean this is a. I think it's a performance analyst intern was the person who, who was dispatched. I'm not really sure how fair it is sort of always naming him as someone who's a young intern. Actually a little bit worried to be honest, about the impact this could have on, on him and his career. But he was the guy who was dispatched. And it even involved dressing in an Eastleigh kit. Not all of our listeners will be familiar with Eastleigh. Eastleigh are what, in the National League now? So fifth, sixth division of English football. So going into a different kit, I'm not sure why anyone in an Eastleigh kit would even be at the Middlesbrough training ground anyway. So I'm not sure about that as a camouflage.
- [06:20]
Matt Slater
No, Adam, I can explain that one.
- [06:22]
Adam Crafton
Go on.
- [06:22]
Matt Slater
So this is all to do with the IP switch. Okay. So this is one of the other ones that they fessed up to. So this was back in April really. Key game in the run in Southampton went on this very poor start to the season. Southampton, they changed their manager and then from about Christmas onwards they suddenly got better. That manager Tonda Eckhart won three Coach of the Month awards in a row. Incredible run. Did well in the FA cup as well. But anyway, Ipswich, the big game. Ipswich had an evening game in Southampton. So Eastleigh is close to Southampton. It's very nearby. So teams that played Southampton often, evening games would sometimes do a light session that morning at Eastleigh. So that's that one.
- [07:05]
Adam Crafton
Oh, that makes a lot more sense. That's quite clever by Southampton, not to give them too much credit.
- [07:10]
IO Akimolere
It's quite clever. Yeah, I was going to say. Yeah, quite sneaky.
- [07:12]
Adam Crafton
That gives a sense of I, I guess the lengths that they were going to. Right. The level of planning and Thor and. And it gives this, it gives a feeling of this being much more than a one off. And obviously the only ones that they've admitted to, the only ones they've admitted to are games they did not win. And Southampton haven't failed to win many games over the last few months. But the ones they failed to win, the Middlesbrough draw, the Ipswich draw and a defeat against Oxford. It's. Look, it could be true that that's the only ones. It could also be very convenient admissions, you know, to give the impacts, I suppose to give the sense that this hasn't had a material impact, in which case you might question why they kept on doing it.
- [07:56]
IO Akimolere
I gotta say, Matt, you know, considering they've been expelled from the playoffs at Southampton and also handed a four point deduction for next season, you know, in something we've reported, Southampton wanted the hearing to take part after the final. I mean, is there something to do with timings here? Would they rather have had a bit more time to build their case up? I mean, I'm trying to understand when you've admitted that you've done something, why you'd want the hearing to be done a bit further on down the line.
- [08:23]
Matt Slater
Well, I mean, there's a few things here. So first of all, ordinarily when you are charged, you have 14 days to respond. Okay. So there was a sort of due process, procedural element to this. You know, the charge, I can't remember if it came on the seventh or the eighth or the ninth, but that's when the story broke. So it was around that time. So that would have taken us after the playoff final. However, we do get this. This is quite common in sports law, particularly if you think about Olympic games or any kind of big championship, whether it be a doping story or some kind of, you know, rules based thing. Court of Arbitration for Sport actually sets up a panel at these games or championships called the ad hoc division, which just does things super fast. I mean, I've seen them done in 24, 48 hours. So we were on that kind of timeline. So right from the off, Southampton were saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, we'd like to do our own investigation, you know, slow down, slow down, increase their leverage as well. It's always very hard to undo things once they're done. I think we'll come into that as well later on. So I think there was an element of tactics. Can we slow down? Can we try and win this on the pitch? And then it becomes harder to unpick. But I think also there was a reasonable argument that they do need some time here. This is incredibly serious. The stakes are very, very high. So you shouldn't, you know, immediately rush into this. So on that first hearing, the EFL was very mindful of Hull or Millwall. The other team waiting for them in the final, they were mindful of. This is a huge game for us. This game is one of the biggest games that the EFL puts on. That and the Carabao Cup Final, it's going to be a big audience watching this Saturday. It's a weekend of finals. Wembley is a busy place. It goes into music concert season. The World cup is coming up, you know, some of these teams have World cup players, so there was an awful lot at stake. Time was of the essence. From the moment the charge was made, it very quickly became apparent that the the latest was Tuesday, as in this Tuesday a couple days ago, to allow time for an appeal. And that was kind of what Southampton grabbed hold of. The EFL wanted it done sooner, they wanted it done last Friday, they wanted another weekend. But I think it was agreed that Tuesday was a reasonable amount of time. We're going to do this fast, so well done. Kudos to the panel. And if and when there's an appeal, the appeal is going to be fast as well. The appeal was yesterday, that was Wednesday and that was one judge, one senior judge, and they didn't hear the whole evidence. Again, that's not how these appeals work. It is very much did the panel, the first panel, apply the law properly and that can be done quicker and it was quite a quick process.
- [11:04]
IO Akimolere
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Agimolere. Lately I've been more intentional about what I wear day to day. Leaning into pieces that feel easy, comfortable and still put together just makes getting dressed simpler. And Quint has been my go to the the fabrics feel elevated, the fits are clean and everything just works without needing to overthink it. Quince has all the wardrobe staples for spring. Think 100% European linen shorts and shirts from $34, lightweight, breathable and comfortable, but still look put together and clean. 100% Pima cotton tees with a softness that has to be felt. Their pants also hit that same balance. Relaxed and comfortable but still polished enough to wear pretty much anytime. And everything is priced 50 to 80% less than you'd find at similar brands right now. I am loving The Comfort Stretch Traveler 5 Pocket Pant in Dark charcoal. It's laid back and refined and good for the working day and the post work cocktail. And at just £49.90 and available in 10 different colors, I might just treat myself to another pair because I'm worth it. So refresh your everyday with luxury. You'll actually use head to Quince.com Athletic FC for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com AthleticFC for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com AthleticFC.
- [12:33]
Jake Stauch
It's smart to always have a few financial goals and a really smart one you can set is earning cash back on what you buy every day and with Discover. You can get this. Discover automatically matches all the cash back you've earned at the end of your first year. Seriously, all of it. And we trust you to make smart decisions. After all, you listen to this show see terms@discover.com creditcard I'm Jake Stauch, co
- [12:58]
founder and CEO of We Built Cerval to automate the IT work that slows companies down. Onboarding password resets, access to applications. My laptop stopped working. While employees wait for help, their real work is put on hold. IT desperately wants to automate this work and that's why they need Serval. You just tell Servil what you want to automate in plain English and it's built. No drag and drop workflows, no expensive consultants. Employees get unblocked and IT teams go from drowning in tickets to building what actually matters. With Cerval, it becomes the AI engine powering the entire company. This is a new way to run it. We guarantee you'll automate 50% of all tickets and we'll prove it to you in a free four week pilot. Go to Acast that's S E r v a l.comacast.
- [14:03]
IO Akimolere
What do you think this means for the Saints manager, Adam Thunder Eckhart? Is he ever going to work again in England?
- [14:09]
Adam Crafton
Well, I mean it's going to be interesting. Does he keep his job at Southampton? I think a lot will depend on what Southampton as a club knew about this practice. You know, if Southampton's ownership and executive level people knew about this, then it's quite hard for them to justify removing the coach, to be honest, unless they take the view that the damage between the coach and the dressing room, and we'll get onto how the players have responded to this as well, because that's probably an important aspect, then maybe you have no choice but to remove the manager. If the club as a whole did not know about this, then I struggle to see how he'll be able to keep his job. I also struggle how he would get his next job in England despite the fact that his form, the form of the team overall has been fantastic. And it won't all be because of spying and cheating. It'll be because he's probably a good coach that's across a lot of detail and has a good reputation. But you know, in other parts of the world where some of these practices are less frowned upon, seen as less controversial, seems to be a perception that it's a little bit more common in Germany, some of these methods. That seems to sincerely be the case. So maybe he could go back there and get a job there. But it's a shame in the sense of. As of about two weeks ago, he was considered to be one of the most exciting coaches in the country.
- [15:32]
IO Akimolere
What do we then know about who was responsible for taking part in all of this?
- [15:38]
Matt Slater
Well, we're still waiting for the written reasons to come. I think they. They've been imminent for a while. The EFL is very, very keen and has quite a good record here of being transparent with its. With its work, with its legal work. So I'm led to believe they're about 13 pages now. Ordinarily, something like this, you'd expect loads more. I wonder if they're writing more now. I think they. There was a kind of quick judgment that was shared with the parties for the appeal. So I wonder if the delay now is. They're fleshing it out with more evidence, more testimony from the first hearing on Tuesday. I am led to believe that the initial hearing went incredibly badly for Southampton. The EFL hired a criminal barrister and I think Southampton were perhaps a little bit shocked that the EFL were going to push for expulsion. But the EFL itself changed its mind as more allegations, more evidence emerged. And the key evidence, I think, is. Is messages between Ecker and analysts. Plural. Some analysts, I think two were cross examined, as was Eckart, as was Director of Football, a guy called Johannes Spores. Spores and Ecker are both German. They came as a double act. They previously worked at Genoa. Eckert's worked various other Spanish clubs. Sorry, German clubs as well. It does appear from the testimony and from the WhatsApp messages that this was between Ekke and analysts. And I think one of the reasons why Ecker, I'm afraid, is definitely toast, is there appears to have been at times pushback from the analysts. I'm not sure we should be doing this. I don't want to do this. Eckart, tell them to get on with it. Eckhart telling them, hope you come back with better stuff this time because you didn't come back with great stuff the previous time. Spores has denied all knowledge. That was his testimony on Tuesday. And there is nothing apparently in the evidence that's emerged so far that does implicate him. So it does look like at the moment, the buck is stopping with Ecker. We are waiting to see what the FAA are going to do. The FAA have announced today they're going to investigate because the FL have done their process on their rule that was broken, which was a rule that was introduced after the initial spygate. Marcelo Bielsa famously, 2019 spied on everybody and got caught spying ahead of a Derby game, Derby county game, and just responded in the most wonderful fashion. He held a press conference and went, yeah, I've been doing it. And look what. And this is what I've gleaned from my 1819 spying missions. There wasn't a rule at the time he got done for not acting in good faith. That's all they could really do. And they got £200,000. Now, this is this, of course, I'm now getting into where Southampton are saying proportionality. That was the previous most famous case. But the problem is the EFL changed the rule. The Bielsa situation forced everyone's hands to go, oh, this thing that I don't think we really do here, and maybe we do, maybe we don't, but we specifically are going to rule it out now. That's when the rule came in. So now we have a whole different conversation around proportionality. But anyway, it does look like at the moment it's Ecker and analysts. However, Adam, I think, has previously raised the issue that everybody in EFL and certainly in the championship is talking about, Wait, so they spied on Oxford in December and then didn't spy on anyone until Ipswich in April and then again Borough a few weeks later? Hmm. Okay. So there isn't a club in the championship that they played who are now checking the hotels, seeing what they can find on cctv, asking everybody, did you see anything strange going on? Did we do a morning session at Eastleigh? They're all having these conversations.
- [19:26]
IO Akimolere
Yeah. It's interesting because I want to talk about who else might have known about it or not. And I want to talk about the players. We'll talk about Middlesbrough a little later on, especially now they're in to the playoffs, finals. Let's talk about the players. Adam, what has been the reaction within Southampton? You've. We've reported that the players are considering legal action against their own club. But I also don't want to be a conspiracy theorist. Southampton scored the winning goal. I could see a Southampton player doing the goggles kind of, you know, reaction. I don't want to read too much into it, but it doesn't look great.
- [20:01]
Adam Crafton
No. And look, I think people will sort of maybe dive into that as well, from the sense of if the players are doing binocular gestures, what does that mean about what they knew? I think it's also possible they just got very into the rivalry, you know, over the course of two legs and everything that was going around on social Media, probably what their mates were sending them on WhatsApp. There's a stage to this that was just funny, you know, I have to say, the first few days of it, my first reaction to the story was, great story, great thing for everyone to talk about, but they're not actually going to kick them out, right? Like, they're not going to go and do that. And they did. So now it's a very serious story and now there's a ton of money that was potentially on the table that's no longer on the table. And people are asking, you know, why that is and who is to blame for that. I think some of Southampton's players certainly have, via their representatives, their agents contacted the pfa, the players union, to explore what options might be available to them. They might argue that they have lost out on potential earnings. I was told yesterday that some of Southampton's players had 100% pay rises locked into their contract in the event of promotion.
- [21:14]
IO Akimolere
Would they have taken a pay cut by going to the championship as well in that case?
- [21:18]
Adam Crafton
Yes, but some of them would have joined the club after they were in the championship as well. But, yeah, usually many Premier League clubs will have up to 50%, sometimes even more pay cuts in the contracts in the event of relegation. That's kind of common practice. And then when you go back up, that adjusts in the same way as teams that fall in and out of the Champions League. However, they haven't secured promotion. That is what I presume Southampton will say. They've not beaten Hull City and they are not yet in the Premier League, so I think that's going to be a difficult thing to prove. However, there are clauses in most playing contracts which rely on the club always acting in a proper way of not bringing the club into disrepute. And I think more possible is that players who take the nuclear option could potentially seek to terminate their own contracts under the clauses that bring into question the behavior of those that they work for at the club. Whether they'll actually go through with that is another question. But I think that is going to become a discussion point, particularly for players who, I don't know, say they've got a lot of interest from Premier League clubs and Southampton are playing hardball over a fee and things like that. They could potentially say, well, look, if you don't let me go for this fee, we're going to force it another way, which would lead to an all different kind of legal battle. And, you know, we should say it's very early days and in these Discussions. But there are definitely players at Southampton who have these concerns, and there's also definitely players at Southampton who want to be playing in the Premier League next season. But one way or another, you're nodding
- [22:54]
IO Akimolere
a lot there, Matt. Do the players have elector stand on here?
- [22:57]
Matt Slater
Yeah. It's interesting. I think Adam has explained one of their problems. They hadn't reached Premier League yet. Right there. There was another stage to go. There was 90 minutes. There was. There was a game to be played. However, Adam is also right that I think at Southampton, the. The relegation clause was 40%, so they would have been reinstated. There were promotion bonuses and there were guys that had clauses written into their contracts about, know, their. Their wage in the Premier League. So there is absolutely no doubt there is a potential loss. Absolutely. And we know that they saw PFA advice very quickly. We know they're furious. I think the Taylor Harwood Bella stuff, you know, the banter that was back at that funny stage before I think the full implications became clear. I think there's an awful lot of patching up to be done there by the top brass, by the owner, dragonsolac. I wonder if he can just make this go away with settlements. Guys, I can make. Let's. I can make you good. Well, we shall see. We shall see what wiggle room they have. I think, in terms of where this goes next, legally, my God, it could go in any. In crazy directions. I think some of them will be. They'll all be explored. I think some of them will. Will fizzle out pretty quickly. So, for example, you know, Wrexham, who came seventh nine points behind Southampton, they might go, right, so you've knocked off basically points for next season based on their cheating. Two points per game. That doesn't get us into the playoffs yet, but maybe three or four more games, if we can find some evidence of cheating, would. Okay, now we get into that whole, you know, reallocating medals at Olympic Games, giving out Lance Armstrong's Tour de France jerseys. It's a nightmare for sport. Any kind of retrospective justice is a nightmare. I don't think Wrexham, I think they want to be good citizens and I think they realized they were nine points behind. I think they will probably go. Do you know what? The four points off next season sounds like a good punishment. We're okay. Hull are doing something quite interesting at the moment. They're basically. Well, a former owner, I think, is pushing this, who I think has a contingency payment based on that takeover deal that if they make the Premier League, he's going to get a Bit more for the club. I think he's pushing hard to see, well, should we not have a walkover? Middlesbrough have already been beaten. The other lot that we're supposed to play, Southampton have been thrown out. We've won, haven't we? We're in the Premier League. The EFL are pretty confident on this one and I think, you know, natural justice would say, hold on a minute, that would be completely ignoring the wrong done to Borough. The cheating affected Borough. Burra should get that tie. Now, whether we haven't seen the detail yet, whether the panel have gone 3 nil, walkover, win in the first leg, which is what you kind of would get in kind of grassroots amateur football for any kind of cheating, ineligible player, that kind of thing, or they've just gone, do you know what? Southampton cheated Borough win the two leg tie. They just win that tie. They're in the final. I think that's probably what the panel, they have an enormous discretion, by the way. That's probably the ruling they've made. Well, there you go, Hull, there's your opponent, Borough. Borough won that tie because the other, the team they were playing cheated against them. You now go win your place in the Premier League. Go win it on the pitch. And I think that's probably the. I think that's a good place. I think that's a good place. The fl, I think have done a pretty good job here. Giving an absolute nightmare hand last week. I think they've done a pretty good job. And we're going to get the most watched championship playoff final of all time. And two decent teams are going to try and earn their spot in the Premier League. On the pitch,
- [26:35]
Jake Stauch
It's smart to always have a few financial goals and a really smart one. You can set earning cash back on what you buy every day. And with Discover, you can get this. Discover automatically matches all the cash back you've earned at the end of your first year. Seriously, all of it. And we trust you to make smart decisions. After all, you listen to this show see terms@discover.com creditcard I'm Jake Stauch, co
- [27:00]
founder and CEO of We Built Serval to automate the IT work that slows companies down. Onboarding password resets, access to applications. My laptop stopped working. While employees wait for help, their real work is put on hold. It desperately wants to automate this work and that's why they need Servil. You just tell Servil what you want to automate in plain English and it's built. No drag and drop workflows, no expensive consultants, employees get unblocked and IT teams go from drowning in tickets to building what actually matters. With Cerbal, it becomes the AI engine powering the entire company. This is a new way to run it. We guarantee you'll automate 50% of all tickets and we'll prove it to you in a free four week pilot. Go to serval.com acast that's S-R V.com acast.
- [27:59]
Pablo Torre
Hi, this is Pablo Torre from Pablo Torre finds out and today I want to talk to you about Boost Mobile because we spent a lot of time analyzing inefficiencies in sports, overvalued contracts, money tied up in the wrong places, and so on. But those inefficiencies aren't just on a roster. Sometimes they're in your own monthly expenses. Boost Mobile says switching to their $25 Unlimited Forever plan can unlock up to $600 in savings a year. That's $25 a month for unlimited data, talk and text when you bring your own phone. If that money is trapped in a pricey phone bill, it might be worth a second look. Visit boostmobile.com to learn more. After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers pay $25 per month as long as they remain active on the Boost Mobile Unlimited Plan savings claim. Based on a January 2026 Boost Mobile survey of a thousand Americans with single line unlimited plans, comparing average annual payments of major carriers to 12 months on the Boost Mobile Unlimited plan. For full offer details, visit boost mobile.com.
- [29:01]
IO Akimolere
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Aimalero
- [29:07]
Matt Slater
and what a podcast team gift that is. Tom Watson has surely booked Sandal's place in the Premier League.
- [29:15]
IO Akimolere
So the championship playoff final is due to take place on Saturday. Adam I'm thinking about Hull first and thinking about who they thought they might be facing in the final. They thought Southampton. Now it's Middlesbrough and we mentioned Middlesbrough earlier. How does this impact them in their preparations for the game as well? Does it dislodge their mindset?
- [29:35]
Adam Crafton
And Middlesbrough now also need to snap out of a kind of a bit of a victim complex. You know, for the past week they probably even joined that second leg. Were thinking, oh, if we, if we lose, we might still have a way out of this. Whereas, you know, now they've just got to, got to go and win a game. I mean, even with Middlesbrough, it's interesting because Steve Gibson, their owner, a long time owner now, I think he's a pretty powerful voice in the fl. He's a pretty powerful voice. He's a pretty powerful voice in the media as well, I think it's probably fair to say. And I think he will also have memories as a Middlesbrough owner and fan of Middlesbrough getting their own punishment. If you go back to the 90s, what was it, Matt, like 96, 97, where they were unable to fulfill something.
- [30:22]
Matt Slater
Oh, well, they didn't turn up to Blackburn.
- [30:24]
IO Akimolere
Yeah.
- [30:24]
Adam Crafton
They were unable to fulfill the Premier
- [30:26]
Matt Slater
League fixture, famous game.
- [30:27]
Adam Crafton
And they ended up getting docked points. Right?
- [30:30]
Matt Slater
Yeah. Brian Robson's borough said they have fluke.
- [30:32]
Adam Crafton
Yeah. And they ended up getting to what, two cup finals that year and relegated. Was that right?
- [30:39]
Matt Slater
Yeah, it was a crazy year.
- [30:40]
Adam Crafton
So Middlesbrough will have, because it's, you know, the same ownership. Steve Gibson, he will have this institutional memory of the, you know, doing wrong and the laws being applied and there being a real impact on promotion, relegation. And I do wonder whether that's kind of even now, even all these years on. That's probably formed, you know, formed some of the way that Hiller thought about this and perhaps not unfairly from a players and manager point of view. I really don't envy what the EFL have had to do because I think it's so hard to really get a sense of what the material impact of spying is. You know, of sending an intern to a training ground with what looked like a mobile phone and hoping that those things that I've worked on during the little bit of training that you see have a material impact on the outcome of a game, which is based on so many little moments. And I think that's, you know, that will probably be Southampton's argument. It's, you know, does it really merit this level of punishment? But really what the FL is saying is your cheats, you are cheats. And we have now a position on that and it is the strongest possible position.
- [31:56]
IO Akimolere
You know, this isn't the first time in football obviously in the EFL either. But you think about the international game. I'm thinking about the 2024 Olympics, Matt. You know, Canada and the drones over the New Zealand team. And the punishment there was Canada lost six points while their coach, along with the analysts and also assistant coach were handed a one year ban from football by FIFA. Now, within the league system in the uk, what kind of president does this send? This Middlesbrough situation and Southampton situation, what kind of precedent does it send moving forward?
- [32:27]
Matt Slater
Well, I think so this, this is the, the precedent for this specific new law, untested law. But you're right, there were other cases and that's the one I think that when we see the written reasons, I suspect that one will be cited. That was a very high profile game, the Olympics, women's football, and there was a significant penalty. So that does slightly, I think, damage Southampton's. This has never happened before. Defence or certainly when they went to the appeal. I don't think they did a very good job first time round on Tuesday, but I think in the appeal they went with we're sorry, which I think is good. And this is disproportionate and I do think there is a. That is reasonable, that is definitely debatable and I think there's a lively debate going on. But I do, I'm sorry to sit on the fence. I can also see that kind of Steve Gibson point that Adam's making that Borough made very, very clearly. They weren't allowed into the hearing. They wanted to be in the hearing. They weren't allowed, but they did make a written submission. And I think the EFL itself changed its view when they realized this was a pattern of behavior. And I also think if we do see all the testimony, I think it's going to reflect poorly because I think there was also an element of bullying. There was an element of, I want you to do this whether you want to do it or not. You know, so a real kind of problems with the culture at Southampton. You know, who was in charge, a lack of governance. You know, this, this, this is, this is bad for the club. And I think there have been big punishments before. I, I saw in their, their public statement that this is, you know, no one's ever been hurt this badly before. And it's the biggest punishment that sort of British football's ever dished out. Luton in 2008, 2009 on almost went out of business. They were docked 30 points for a kind of a, you know, it was, it was illegal payments to agents and then it was how they, how they went in and out of administration. But that was, that was heavy handed and almost killed a club. We've seen other clubs that have had penalties that have relegated them. Derby county, for example. So this is not, you know, totally out of nowhere, but the precedent has been set. Now, if you think Bielsa got a slap on the wrist. He did get a slap on the wrist. Well, now you've, now we've corrected it. Don't do this. We mean this.
- [34:37]
IO Akimolere
Do you know what I was just thinking, Adam? This match could, and I know it's probably not the official figure, but we've quoted it before. This could mean around 200 million pounds for a club going into the Premier League. It's big, big money. And the fact is that Hull could have been basically handed a buy and just gone straight through to the Premier League, but they haven't, because actually, you know, I was in New York not too long ago. The EFL is actually big business. There are a lot of people with rights for the EFL globally now. And actually that playoff final is massive business.
- [35:05]
Adam Crafton
Yeah, I mean, it's probably the most watched championship game, I would presume. You know, it's now shown on the Paramount platform, CBS Sports, which you get, which is the same as the one that shows sort of UEFA club competitions like the Champions League. They put a decent amount behind it. I expect broadcasters would want a game to take place. They would always want a game to take place. I think there's also probably something in. It doesn't feel quite right to give a team a buy, per se, particularly when there's another team that is so willing and ready to compete. I think that would also feel strange and a bit underwhelming. And look, I mean, obviously, look, the FL would not want storylines about cheating all the time, but it's not the worst thing to have a bit of drama, a bit of intrigue, people talking about a game that's already got loads riding on it. You know, that's what you want. You know, you want plot lines, you want rivalries, you want people talking about your competition. You know, it is the week of the World cup squad announcements. Arsenal winning the Premier League the week before the Champions League final. And we're on a podcast talking about the second division of English football. You know that that is significant. You know that is significant for the fl. Now, like I say, it's not something you'd want every week, but it's not the worst thing for them.
- [36:30]
IO Akimolere
So true. Well, Saturday 23rd May, 3:30 UK time, whole play Middlesbrough in the playoff final in the championship. Who out of those teams makes it to the Premier League? Gents, appreciate your time as always. Matt, Adam, thanks for joining us and also thank you guys as well. So, quick one before we go. I'm going to have to read this out now because basically I'm dyslexic, so I need to make sure I get this right. But my footballing journey here at the Athletic has come to an end. Three seasons in which we've. We've won a few trophies in that time and you know what? In those three seasons, we. We've won the hearts of so many football fans and grown our population of football fans on this podcast and through the content that we create. Look, this is a pod, a platform that I've respected for so many years and there were big shoes to fill as the guy before me was the great Mark Chapman. So you know, you got to have a little bit of confidence in yourself and a sense of self awareness if you want to sit in that seat. And you know what you guys have let us know you've enjoyed it. More downloads, more people viewing the content. So I'm forever grateful for that. But like anything else, all good things must come to an end. I just want to say a massive thank you to all the guys behind the scenes making this possible. They make my job so easy. Firstly, a lot of the journalists that we work with, brilliant at what they do. I am working here with some of the best people in the business. Also people like A.D. moorhead, Guy Clark, people you don't see. Mike Stavrou, Jay and Liam, and also Rachel from back in the day. And all the other people that have helped us behind the scenes as well. Honestly, these guys, I'm talking sleepless nights here to make sure the content is out on time and ready for you guys to digest. We try to be at the cutting edge of every news story out there in football and we hope we've entertained you and we've informed you as well. Also, big love to a lot of the freelancers we work with as well. They've literally made this an absolute juggernaut of a podcaster to work on and I guess for me, for the final time, look, this is Iowa Kim Oleri on the Athletic FC podcast. Thanks for joining us and I hope to see you soon. Peace and love.
- [38:35]
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavrou and Jay Beal with editing by Paul Iliff and Nick Thompson. The executive producer. Producer is Admir. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows. Search for the Athletic wherever you get your podcasts. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
- [39:13]
Jake Stauch
It's smart to always have a few financial goals and a really smart one. You can set earning cash back on what you buy every day. And with Discover you can get this. Discover automatically matches all the cash back you've earned at the end of your first year. Seriously, all of it. And we trust you to make smart decisions. After all, you listen to this show, see terms@discover.com creditcard marketers.
- [39:37]
Contentful Advertiser
You know that feeling when your creative clicks, when that social post sends engagement through the roof, when your outside of the box campaign hits ROI positive, when a personalized homepage turns prospects into customers. It's utter marketing bliss. Contentful helps you create tailored omnichannel experiences without working overtime. No stress, no limits, only possibilities. Get the feels@contentful.com if you work in
- [40:04]
Grainger Advertiser
University Maintenance, Grainger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip off. And Grainger is your trusted partner, offering the products you need all in one place, from H VAC and plumbing supplies to lighting and more, and all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock. So your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-GRAINGER visit grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.