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- [00:00]
Adam Grant
Parle tu francais hablas espanol par l'?
- [00:03]
Phil Hayes
Italiano?
- [00:04]
Adam Grant
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- [00:39]
Robert Mays
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- [01:23]
Ayo Akimolere
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- [02:34]
Chris Weatherspoon
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with Me, Ayo Akimolere Sunderland are enjoying a dream start so far in the Premier League. Their win over Chelsea takes them into the top four after just nine games. So what can they achieve this season? All right, with us today, we have Chris Weatherspoon with this jubilant Sunderland hat on and hopefully Phil Hayes bringing us back down to earth with his journalistic balance as well. Right, Chris, we have to get into this, right, because we did a pod, what, after Sunderland were promoted in May, asking if they can stay up in the Premier League. I mean, you must be pinching yourself at the start they've had so far.
- [03:20]
Phil
Yeah, I mean, I think. I think the answer at the time was, do we have to talk about that now? Can we not just enjoy. Not just enjoy the promotion? But, yeah, I mean, I guess what happened not long after that podcast was the fixtures came out. I think a lot of summer fans, myself included, and just a lot of observers looked and thought, you know, got a decent run of fixtures, there was a chance there to kind of hit the ground run, and that's exactly what they've done. I think Saturday down at Stamford Bridge was, you know, everyone had pinpointed that that's when the fixtures turn. And if you look at the fixtures between now and Christmas, they aren't the nicest on paper, but they just keep surprising us. It's been a remarkable six months, really, ever since that Dan Balor goal went in in the last minute of the playoff semi final. We kind of not look back, Phil.
- [04:04]
Chris Weatherspoon
I mean, 17 points from their opening nine Premier League games is the best return, I think, of a promoted club at this stage of a season since Hull city back in 2008. Nine season. How impressed have you been watching Sunderland?
- [04:19]
Phil Hayes
Well, if we're going back to that podcast from May, you remember we had Leo Pelman on, one of the producers of Sunderland Till I Die, and he said quite openly, I think we'll surprise a few people next season. And I don't know whether I said this on air, but I certainly thought it. My reaction was, give over, as if everybody who comes up gets relegated in a matter of months. And I certainly wasn't seeing that with Sunderland. Chris said there that what came next was the, you know, the fixture list obviously put a certain spin on what was coming in the season. What also came next was the transfer window. And I'm not going to go all Nostradamus here or pretend that I had Sunderland where they are on, on 17 points, but I did actually feel like all three of the clubs who came up had really good windows, but Sunderland, to my mind, had the best window. They signed some quality players. They really did. They developed into a good team. I think even though they've made a lot of changes to the squad, the kind of underlying resources that came up with them is door up front. Ballard, others. Others like that were good and have transitioned pretty well to the division. So the fixture list was good to them and it's been good to them precisely because it turned out that some of the sides they were playing early on have been the worst in the division. They've beaten the bottom three, which they needed to do. And the timing's been good because you can see Dice starting to get more change out of Forest. You could potentially see Nuno starting to at least make West Ham a little bit less patchy and a little bit harder. Harder to beat, but. But they're taking almost two points a game at the moment. The bottom three are struggling to take one point from two matches. And if they have anything like a sort of semi reasonable run up to Christmas, which isn't going to be easy, then they're going to be beyond 20 points and, you know, without getting too far ahead of ourselves, they're not going to be far from. From being there already. So, yeah, I have been massively impressed with them and no, I did not see it coming.
- [06:07]
Chris Weatherspoon
I mean, Chris, let's talk about the signings. This been a massive overhaul in the summer with I think over 161 million pounds spent. I was lucky enough to talk to Real Nield for the Premier League and when he just signed for Sunderland and he said, look, we are all ready for the fight. And I thought, much like Phil, let's see how that first game pans out. But in reality they have been ready for the fight. But it's not always easy to bring in that many players and also make them work together. Who's been your stand. Who have been some of your standouts so far?
- [06:42]
Phil
I mean, the obvious answer is Granit Jacket, but I guess he was a bit of a known quantity near this standout. Probably the goalkeeper, Robin Roofs, he's been outstanding. You forget how young he is. He's very calm and influenced. You know, like those goalkeepers that kind of instill confidence in their defense. He's got that, he's got that gravitas. And then the. The two in front of him. There's Nody Mukele, who they signed from Paris Saint German. There's Umar Aldaretti, who was actually in the concussion protocol at the Weekend. So he didn't even play down at Stamford Bridge. But he's been outstanding since he signed. I guess there was an element of surprise anyway because for a lot of these players, a lot of people hadn't seen them play. They haven't been linked, they've been bought from abroad. As the start of the season approached, the defence was looking really lightweight. They hadn't brought in many figures who were going to play at the back. And I think I'm right in saying that the extent of someone's Premier League experience in Defence was about 2 appearances Leo Hjelde made off the bench for Leeds, I think, and that was it. And that was the worry because obviously in the Premier League it's very hard to score goals and if you concede them and that it becomes very difficult to pick up points. But you know those, those players have come in in defence and they've really hit the ground running. Tre Hume has been nothing short of outstanding at right back. They picked him up a few years ago for £150,000 from the Irish League. He'll be worth many multiples of that now. Dan Ballard, very highly rated. He was at Arsenal, but he had injury problems. They took a bit of a gamble on him and he's looked at home since, since coming up. So yeah, I think no Siddiqui, I haven't even mentioned him. He's been, he's been unbelievable. I don't think he knows how to walk. He just runs everywhere and, and, and he, he was outstanding again on, on Saturday. So yeah, so there's, there's so many to name but really the, the surprise has been how solid they've looked.
- [08:30]
Chris Weatherspoon
It's funny. Home record is brilliant so far this season. I think I'm beaten in the stadium of light and fair to say, you know that home crowd has, has paid dividend for, for Sunderland, but I' perspective as so on his wat Sunderland. Which is a better result for this team? Is it that away win against Chelsea or is it that home win against West Ham? As. As you kicked off the season, which brought more jubilation? How you started the season or the fact that you went away and you be a really top team?
- [09:00]
Phil
Well, for me it was, it was Saturday at Stamford Bridge because I, I actually miss the opening game of the season. It was. It was my son's second birthday and, and I thought, well, he's only going to be two once. But then I thought, how many times are we going to be in the Premier League? I'm not too sure. So, yeah, So I missed it. And I don't know if you've ever seen the famous episode of the Likely Lads where they try to avoid the England score. Now I successfully managed to get to the start of Match of the Day without finding out the score, which I can tell you is incredibly difficult in this one day. But I remember it came on our Match of the Day and they were.
- [09:35]
Phil Hayes
I didn't, I didn't think anybody did that anymore.
- [09:38]
Phil
I just, you know, we were, we were, we were out for the. Because it was his birthday, we were out for the day. So it's not like I was like kind of sat in the house and like shook all the curtains and whatever. But yeah, and they came on first on Match of the Day and I thought, well, this is either really good or this could be really, really bad. I think that was a really important result because it, it got the ball rolling. And I think if you look at previous promotion teams, certainly I looked at Ipswich last year. Now I can't remember which way around. But Ipswich had to play Manchester City and Liverpool in the first two games. So while you would never expect to get anything from those games, the problem is after two games you've got zero points, you're already behind people and that makes a big deal at the end of the season. You don't see the momentum of how a season goes, but it makes a big difference. There's a lot more pressure to pick up points if you're behind than if you're in front. And so yeah, so that was a big one. But I think in terms of pure joy and to be honest, in terms of the optimism, I think Saturday at Chelsea was a big one because prior to the injury time goal, they deserved at least a point. And I don't think anyone could argue that they didn't deserve to win. Like the game, the game plan worked really well. You know, they went behind early but they didn't get flustered. And I think that kind of gave the belief that actually oh, rolls it across Toby Stride and he might just have won it for Sunderland. Don't get me wrong myself, every other sun and fan, I suspect plenty of people inside the club would take 17th tomorrow. But I think results like that and performances like that kind of make you think actually perhaps this doesn't have to be a nail biting relegation battle.
- [11:16]
Ayo Akimolere
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akimolera.
- [11:22]
Adam Grant
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- [11:26]
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- [12:09]
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- [12:45]
Chris Weatherspoon
Phil the guy that's in charge of trying to put this plan into play is Regis Lebris, appointed from French side LA in June of last year. What have you made of him so far from where you're sitting?
- [12:58]
Phil Hayes
Well, again, impressed not just by this season but, but last season. And I think the point about Saturday is that against the considerably better team than some of the teams they've beaten at home, and I would apply this to the draw at Crystal palace as well. They've, they've shown the ability to construct a strategy, particularly away from home, and execute it really, really well. And that's always the question about coaches coming up from the Championship to the Premier League, right, is can they adapt and can they show a bit more nice than they sometimes have to show in the championship? This applies to Scott Parker at Bunley. It applies to Daniel Farker at Leeds, neither of whom have ever done particularly well in the Premier League previously. How good are you at adapting and managing games where you're not dominant and where other teams and other coaches have considerably better resources or better players than you? And can you still garner enough results to keep yourself up and to keep yourself competitive? And that will definitely been a question about Sunderland before the season started. This coach might have done it in the championship, but is he going to do it in The Premier League. And is he going to have like the range of tactical skill to be able to cope with, you know, games away at Chelsea? And one trip on Saturday tells you that yes, he, yes, he can. And they're going to be ropey parts of the season, without a doubt, because it always goes that way and that inevitably happens. But a good start makes such a difference. I've seen it before. I saw it with Leeds the season they came up. If you get points on the board early on, it definitely certainly does take the pressure off from here. It'd be quite a surprise if Sunderland went down. You know, they've already put themselves.
- [14:31]
Phil
Don't say that, Phil, don't say that.
- [14:34]
Phil Hayes
I know it's easy from my distance, but already for two of the teams at the bottom, West Ham and Wolves, you're needing a big surge from them in order to get anywhere near parity with Sunderland at the moment. And if you go into the terraces at Molyneux or down to West Ham, the pro isn't a supporter anywhere. Those clubs who can see that coming because they look dreadful. There's been no manager bounce at West Ham at all with Nuno coming in, yet Wills have given this new contract to Pereira because they have this amount of faith in him. But it sounds like he's a little bit toxic there already. And you genuinely wonder, can you really stick to a three year contract if you, you know, you lodged on two, two points at the bottom of the Premier League? It's, it's really difficult. So they've got plenty to do still Sunderland and you aren't going to find anyone there who's going to say it's done and dust. As I was saying earlier, you know, some semblance of form before Christmas and a few results here and there and they'll be up over 20 points and, you know, heading for home. Yeah.
- [15:34]
Chris Weatherspoon
Quite a contrast, isn't it, Chris? This was a manager Libri that I guess Sunderland fans were somewhat underwhelmed by when he was first appointed. But you know what, he did do some great stuff in France, let's not forget. I know he got relegated, but he did do some really good stuff in France. And also from what we're reading, a really good manager of young players.
- [15:53]
Phil
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think underwhelmed is the perfect word for it. And I think, I think that needs to be put in context in that it wasn't just the individual people underwhelmed by, you know, it seems strange to see it now, but less than 18 months ago, the vibe around the club wasn't great. Tony Mowbray had been sacked. Now, I'm not sure Tony Mowbray would have ever gotten Sunderland promoted, but he was doing a decent job. You know, when he was sacked, some of them were three points outside the playoff spots. By the end of that season, they ended up just six points above the relegation zone. You know, if this season had gone on a little longer, if they'd sacked more Beer a little earlier, not won a couple of games, you know, they might well have ended up back in League one. So when, when the BRI came in, it was also, it should be said, you know, they, they had what we termed the Michael Biel experiment, which did not go particularly well. And then after he was sacked, within a couple of months, they had an interim manager till the end of the season. And then the time it took to hire a manager seemed almost interminable and they looked at Will still, who's at Southampton right now, and he didn't want to come. And it got to the point where they hired Laveree. Not many people had heard of him. And then you go and do your research and you see that he's just been relegated and his team has just conceded the most goals in Ligue 1 in going down and it didn't feel like it scolded. Well, actually if you dug a bit deeper, you'd see that the year prior to that Lorient had finished a bit table in the intervening summer, you know, he'd had his three best players, or arguably his three best players who contributed nearly half of the team's goals they were sold, including Enzo Lefe, who's obviously ended up back at Sunderland. Further back, he'd been involved with Laurian's youth academy for I think over a decade, if I remember rightly so there was clearly, just as there's a clear profile of player that they're trying to buy and largely have bought, there was a clear profile of manager. They clearly wanted someone who was going to be able to work with young players. And I think as well, really, if we're being honest about it, if you're a club doing things on a budget, which have done certainly up until this summer, getting individuals and players out of the French league comes cheaper than it does from some of the other leagues. And the thing with the BRU was he came in and he really hit the ground running. And again we talk about home form. First 13 home games last year, Southern won that of them. I think the, the thing about him is he's very cerebral. He, he doesn't get, he doesn't get too high, he doesn't get too low. He's very understated. You know, there was a point during last season when form tailed off a little bit. I think probably, Phil, you'll remember this. Around the time that Leeds scored in the last minute, two and two on down at Ellen Road, there was a concern that he had, you know, the, the archetypal complaint about a manager that he had no plan B, he couldn't change matches mid game. Well, actually since then we've, we've seen that change quite a bit. So in the, the three playoff games, someone really grew into those games. Certainly the playoff final, if you watch the first half compared to the second half, they really grew into that game and they, they really took that game by the scuff of the neck. We've seen it even in defeats in the Premier League this season. You know, they, they went to Manchester United and got beat and half an hour into that game he changed everything around. And actually after that, don't get me wrong, United were tuned up by that point. Perhaps they took their foot off the gas as well. But things around and, and there were chances and the team looked better and that was another aware performance. Okay, not from the start, but it was another where they had a strategy that they shifted to. So, yeah, I think he almost goes under the radar. I think that really does work for him and for Sunland.
- [19:36]
Phil Hayes
Right now I sort of feel like we should speak quickly a bit more about Bellingham. Were they, were they forced into selling? Like, did they want to sell Bellingham in the summer? Because given the way it's going at Dortmund, it's looking like quite a savvy decision, quite a sensible decision to take the money. And also, and you being a financial guy will be able to explain this way better than me. The money that came in for Bellingham must have been pretty useful from a PSR point of view and therefore quite useful in allowing them to do a bit more transfer wise before the window closed.
- [20:09]
Phil
Yeah, so, yeah, so I think taking the first one, I think from the moment Joe Bellingham signed for Sunland, the expectation was that he would probably only be there two years. I think it was very much, let's be honest, it was a stepping stone. One of the issues perhaps that the current ownership had, until they had results to show for it was putting out and they would never put it out publicly, but like showing something to be a stepping stone club because nobody wants to be. And certainly a club that some fans hark back to history and we talk 40,000 to the gate. As I've said, you don't want to be a stepping stone, but the reality, if we're honest, is just about every club is a stepping stone somewhere up the ladder, apart from maybe Real Madrid. So I don't think it was a case of forced. I think there was likely an understanding that whatever happened at the end of last season, I mean, whatever did happen, you know, he got promoted and it didn't prove enough to keep him. I think it was always set in terms of the financial impact. Yeah, you're right. I mean, I remember when they were spending money in the summer, there were a lot of comparisons made in Nottingham Forest. The difference was that Forest came up with big losses from the championship, which Sunland didn't, in part because they hadn't had the time to accumulate them. They were only in the championship for three seasons and as I mentioned earlier, they worked to a budget. They didn't spend an awful lot of money. The last check that we have of how much the squad had cost, which is the end of July 2024, the squad cost 18 million pounds, which is a tiny amount in the context of English football. Now, they spent a few million last year, but if it had tipped over 20, it hadn't tipped over 20 by March. So they're already coming up without too much to worry from a PSR perspective. But yes, you're exactly right. The sale of Bellingham, the sale of Palm Watson to Brighton and the prior sale of Clark and a little further back, Stuart all contributed to give them even more room. I don't know if the plan was always to spend what they did this summer or whether the the Bellingham sale, you know, push that up. But like I said earlier, I think they were budgeting for the Bellingham sale anyway.
- [22:23]
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Phil Hayes
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Phil Hayes
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Phil Hayes
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- [24:22]
Ayo Akimolere
You'Re listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Ak.
- [24:27]
Chris Weatherspoon
Time to talk Granny Xhaka. I caught up with the athletics German football correspondent Seb Stafford Bloor earlier to chat about the midfielders time at Bayern Leverkusen. Seb, so nice to have you with us. Look, only one place to start really. We have to talk about Jacques role in Leverkusen's incredible unbeaten title winning season.
- [24:47]
Adam Grant
Yeah, the unbeaten double that they won in 2024. I mean a bit of time has passed and obviously the second season there wasn't quite as good. It was still very, very impressive by Leverkusen standards. But Xhaka was the anchor, not just in an emotional sense as a senior member of a dressing room where there were a lot of young players and that was a really important thing. I like he was recruited for that reason. They're a development club like a lot of clubs in Germany. All the clubs apart from Bayern Munich are there to sell players and develop them, find them early and he was kind of the adult in the room or one of them. And if you talk to some of the young Players who are part of that side. I remember speaking to Jeremy Frankpong. He talked about how. I talked about what a good person Jacka was to have around and how he could kind of mix with every generation, the dressing room, on a social level. But also he had a wisdom that was extremely useful on the pitch. So, yeah, Jack, a great pass for the ball. Very good, progressive player. Technically, very, very good. We also knew his way around the kind of the competitive alleys within a game. So if there was a bad moment, knew who to talk to and what to say. If there was a bit of momentum building against Leverkusen, understood, Right. How can we stop the game? Maybe can we buy a foul from somewhere? Can we have a little bit of a regroup? All the kind of wisdom that you expect from a veteran. That's what Jackal was on top of being a very, very good player. And I'm keen to stress that because I don't want to. I don't want it to make him sound like a kind of a figurehead. He was extremely important. And I think, you know, one of the best ways of recognizing this is to see what Leverkusen are without him.
- [26:16]
Phil
Lots of talent.
- [26:17]
Adam Grant
No, no doubt they've got a lot of talent still there. They replaced it over the summer. But you notice during their moments, adversity, the same guys are not there. Jacques is not there. Like the sort of the. The player who allowed. Who sort of helped guide them around the pitch when. When things were a little bit difficult. Yeah, a really profound, profound impact. And actually that 2024 season, you could have made an argument for him being the Bundesliga player of the year. I know he wasn't, but you could make a pretty decent argument for it.
- [26:45]
Phil Hayes
Yeah.
- [26:45]
Chris Weatherspoon
We have to talk about Xhaka back in the Premier League for Sunderland. I mean, I raised an eyebrow when I saw that transfer. I was like, Sunderland for Granit Xhaka. But, I mean, it's playing dividends. We're seeing this passing again, we're seeing those leadership qualities. Could this actually be quite a shrewd buy for Sunderland?
- [27:01]
Adam Grant
Yeah, I think. Because if you think about the kind of things now, neither of you or I have played professional footballer, Premier League, right?
- [27:09]
Chris Weatherspoon
I wish.
- [27:10]
Adam Grant
Ah, you know, but, you know, never too late, are you right?
- [27:14]
Chris Weatherspoon
Yeah. Right. This age, I can barely get out of bed.
- [27:19]
Adam Grant
But if you think about the challenges that you face as a. As a newly promoted team in, in the Premier League and the difficulties that you encounter and some of the things we've already said, what does Granit Xhaka give you on the pitch? Well, he's got a lot of young, inexperienced players. He gives you a little bit of wisdom, allows you to kind of navigate the sort of the dark alleys of a game. On top of that, Sunderland have invested an awful lot of money in attacking players. Also I really like Noah Siddiqui who they signed from Union St. Geoise, who I think is a terrific number eight. And I think I haven't watched as much of Sunderland as I've wanted to, but whenever I have I see the balance in that side and a midfield balance in particular which places an emphasis on what Xhaka does. Well, I don't think he's the best ball winner. I don't think he's a number eight. I think he's an orchestrating number six who can receive passes from his defense and progress the ball up the pitch and, and needs the right partners in those areas to kind of, to complement his abilities. And I think he has that. So, yeah, a really, a really shrewd signing but also hats off to the squad composition that's happened in addition to that. And I think again, it's a situation, right, you have all the, all the tools you need to succeed and that means more than just a coach and a player, but teammates as well.
- [28:33]
Chris Weatherspoon
Well, Phil Seb mentioned the importance of Xhaka's leadership qualities. There he was what immediately made cap upon his arrival in the summer. Labrie has said that Xhaka is like a second coach on the pitch. How good has he been this season from a spectator standpoint?
- [28:50]
Phil Hayes
He's been good, he's been good. But then he, he was always gonna be good, wasn't he? It's a really clever signing. Again, not wildly expensive. I'm sure he's not on a small wage, but the, the outlay on the fee was just realistic level for the sort of money that Sunderland should be spending. And for that they've got themselves a midfielder with vast experience of England coming from Arsenal, but also Bundesliga title winning midfielder and I think significantly as well title winning Bundesliga midfielder for a club that wasn't Bayern Munich, you know, absolutely key to kind of one of the most interesting European sides we've seen in a long time and probably exactly the sort of personality that Sunderland need in that squad. I still think without him they had recruited well. I still think there are a lot of talented players there but. But you do kind of need somebody who is, who acts like the glue and holds it all together. And he is brainy, he is bright, he's clever, intelligent footballer. He probably is a coach in waiting. I can't speak for him. Never spoken to him.
- [29:50]
Chris Weatherspoon
He did his badges. Yeah, he's been doing coaching in Germany, so you're about right. Yeah.
- [29:54]
Phil Hayes
Yeah, he's got that vibe about him, I think, which isn't gonna hurt Sunderland at all. He should be pretty durable. You know, he tends to go through seasons well. I don't think he would have come to Sunderland if he didn't fancy it at all. I think he would have had other options and I think that is one of the, one of the deals which will. We'll see Sunderland right this season. There'll probably be other players who will be more eye catching. In fact, there definitely will be other players who are more eye catching and have been. I think the goalkeeper, Chris mentioned him earlier, Rufes is looking terrific. His stats are really stacking up and as Chris said, he's only 22 as well. He, he might actually be one of those players who, who moves on to bigger things if, if this little showcase of him is an accurate portrayal of how he's going to be longer term. But Xhak is a great sign. Really, really good signing for him and he'll make a difference right the way through the season as long as he stays fit.
- [30:44]
Chris Weatherspoon
Yeah, Chris, Phil makes a really good point in terms of being that glue, but also I think about the older influences like Xhaka in this team. Also talked about Ronaldo, who came from Atletico Madrid and his vast experience for this young squad in particular. How important is it to have that sort of glues in this team that are still trying to get to know themselves in many respects?
- [31:05]
Phil
Yeah, I, I think it's massive. I, I think it's. Look, it's clearly been massive to start the seam and as we discussed, I think it's going to only become more important as those sticky patches come. And you know, one of the, one of the things that we did see on delivery last season was that they didn't. Apart from the end of season when, like I said, I think they kind of were readying themselves for the playoffs, they didn't really go. Go through a prolonged bad spell. And I, I've always thought that the worry with young players is they can get really high, but then they can get really low. And what if that continues? But actually what kind of saw was that they were able to snap themselves out, almost go, that game's gone, we'll move on. And I think having the experienced heads around that, I mean, don't get me Wrong. It would be no surprise if as a promoted team, sudden go somewhere and get absolutely walloped. Like there's. There's no great shame in it. It's probably going to happen. It certainly happened a lot to the promoter clubs last year. So it's how you react to those things. And I think you're right. I think the likes of Shark area especially are going to be key in navigating that. And just to touch on Phil's point there about him staying fit, one of the key things they have done, they've surrounded him with legs. Like I mentioned Siddiqui earlier, Siddiqui never stops running. VR are very similar. Until he got injured. They got, you know, they got young people. Chris Rigg, who's come through the academy, he's only, I think he's still only 18 in that. So they surrounded them with energy, which means actually he doesn't have to move around all that much. He doesn't have to have around everywhere. He just marshals them all. So it's almost like in exchange for his brain, he gets their legs. And I think that's the balance that they've gone for. And I think the other point actually on the character is we've already seen his influence in signing players. Nordy Micheley, when he came from psg, he has instead, because he knew Jaga from Leverkusen, he had a chat with him and I think he basically said, well, should I come and join you? And he said, yeah, well, why wouldn't you? And I don't think we really think about those relationships that players build and stuff. And that certainly for a club like someone who's just been promoted, who need to really kind of show their credibility, to have a player who's able to then go to other good players and say, no, look, something's happening here, or I think it's worth a goal that's massive. The very interesting point about when they sign Xhaka is I would say it's probably the first time under this regime, which started in February 2021, that they've spent money on a player, spent a decent amount of money, cost 30 million, might rise to 17, with no intention of getting that back from selling them. There's no resale value. There's very unlikely to be any resale value in Granite Jack. And that spoke to what they were buying. They were buying someone who actually, they thought he is worth that money to try and steal up. And obviously that's a sporting achievement, but it generates more money and stuff if it doesn't Work. It was a risk worth taking and I think that shows the kind of flexibility of their approach. They've still largely signed young players, but with him they clearly figured him as worth a gamble. So far we're only nine games in, but so far I can see why they did that.
- [34:10]
Chris Weatherspoon
Okay, Phil, we've allowed Chris to indulge himself on Sunderland. We have to let you indulge yourself a little bit as well. Gotta mention Hearts, top of the Scottish Premiership, haven't won the league since what, 1959? 960 season. Are we going to be having the same conversation about Sutherland? How long can they keep this going on for?
- [34:26]
Phil Hayes
No. IO IO I've been trying hard to keep a lid on this for the last week. I was actually asked to write a piece in the build up to the game against Celtic on Sunday and I said to the desk, listen, multiple reasons not to do this. One is that it's October, we only played eight games to that point. Celtic was game nine. Reason two being that for the last 40 years straight without any interludes, the title's gone to Rangers or Celtic, back and forward without fail. And the thing that started in 86 and the thing about 86 was it was the first year that I followed Hartz and Hart's threw the title away on the last day. That season, never been forgotten in our part. They went to Dundee. They needed a point. They lost, Celtic nicked it. And I have to be honest, from that point onwards, and particularly as the financial strength of Celtic and Rangers has developed post 1990 in particular, zero expectation of ever seeing that change. And the stats are even more severe if you go back right to the very start, 129 titles and 110 of them have been won by one of the old fun clubs, one of the Glasgow's big two. So the odds are highly unlikely. But the reason why it is possible. The reasons why it is possible this season a Celtic are a bit of a mess. Brendan Hodges obviously sacked earlier this week. The statement from Desmond, their majority shareholder, is one of the most extraordinary partner ways statements I've ever read. You know, even if clubs fall out with players and coaches, whoever it is, at worst it tends to be a single sentence on Twitter X or statement which says it all. You know, there's nothing in there. So you read between the lines and you know it's been fraught. Or they wish them all the best and they thank them for their efforts. The usual, you know, usual thing. This absolutely slated Rogers and was talking about him making the club toxic and you know, negative environment turning negative attention towards the board. So they're not in a good way at all. Rangers are in even worse shape and have been for a long time. They still are feeling the effects of their liquidation back in 2012. But the thing about Hearts is not only have they started well, they've acquired Tony Bloom, the Brighton owner. He is a minority shareholder now and he's involved James Turner analytics who do the recruitment related to him, company connected to him, who do recruitment as their specialism. So we've started to sign some really interesting players, Kizaridis, Greek winger Claudio Braga, Portuguese forward for small amounts of money who look really, really good. And the thing about Bloom is he's got the knack for finding marginal gains in the transfer market, which is something which a lot of Scottish clubs have been woeful at for years and years. So we should be more competitive. If we got to January and there was a chance then you sort of wonder what Bloom might have up his sleeve in terms of other bright ideas and other little gems that he could pick up. So that's long winded way of saying it's not going to happen, but it just might.
- [37:19]
Phil
Can I just say I think Hearts wholeheartedly deserve to win the league simply for the Claudio Braga song. For the song. For the song, the one that is incredible. I got something last week and I haven't been able to get out my head ever since. I would never. I'll never listen to Queen in the same way again.
- [37:40]
Phil Hayes
I was going to say don't give it away. And if people out there can't work out what it is, then more fool them.
- [37:46]
Chris Weatherspoon
Chris, Phil, appreciate your time. And also Seb Stafford Bloor, who joined us a little earlier as well. Also, thank you guys for listening. We'll be back soon.
- [37:57]
Ayo Akimolere
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabre and Jay Beale. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and Avi Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
- [38:33]
Phil
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Robert Mays
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- [40:51]
Phil Hayes
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