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- [00:00]
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- [01:33]
Raj Panjabi
Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.
- [01:36]
Noah Michaelson
And I'm Noah Michaelson, also from HuffPost.
- [01:38]
Raj Panjabi
And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [01:45]
Noah Michaelson
Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.
- [01:53]
Raj Panjabi
And we're talking like legit credible experts, doctors, PhDs all around.
- [01:58]
Noah Michaelson
Superheroes from HuffPost and Acast Studios. Check out Am I Doing It Wrong? Wherever you get your podcasts, this podcast.
- [02:05]
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- [03:00]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [03:08]
Ayo Akimolere
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. It's now eight losses in 11 games for Manchester City after the weekend's derby defeat to Manchester United.
- [03:17]
Sam Lee
Martinez amad through the middle, he's got a touch on it and Amalan has scored for Manchester united in the 90th minute.
- [03:29]
Ayo Akimolere
So what will it take to fix their current situation? With us today we have the Athletics Manchester City correspondent Sam Lee, plus our senior writer Rory Smith, who makes his athletic debut on the podcast today. Rory, welcome. Good to have you with us.
- [03:47]
Sam Lee
Thank you for having me.
- [03:48]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, Sam, let's start with you on this one. I mean, I think I've probably seen more of you over the last few weeks than I have all of last season. But look, this is an interesting one, especially Bernardo Silva's comment saying City played like under 15s as they gave up. Obviously the late lead ended up losing 21 against Manchester United on Sunday. What are your thoughts on what he said there?
- [04:12]
Rory Smith
Well, it kind of goes hand in hand, I think, with Thierry Henry when he analyzed the goal on Monday Night Football, which is on Sky Sports in the uk and he was like showing grealish and he was like, why don't like, why has he gone backwards? And then he was like, why is this pass gone backwards? Why is this pass gone backwards? It's like, but you must know they've got no confidence whatsoever. Like the whole Guardiola blueprint, the whole idea of keeping the ball as far away from your goal as possible so you're safe is based on being brave and playing forward and yeah, just that courage to play. They obviously haven't got it. And I think the closer they got to we might actually do it. We might actually do it. They just didn't really. It's, you know, when Guardiola first came, they beat Monaco 5, 3 in the first leg of a Champions League game went to Monaco and they had that old mentality of we're two goals up, we're just going to sit back. Now that is completely the opposite to What Guardiola wants, isn't it? Because then you just invite in trouble. And even when City managed to score that night, I think they were down. I think they managed to equalize. They sat back again and he was just like, what is going on? They just keep sitting back. And I think it was almost that same mindset on Sunday. They had something to hold onto, but because they're so fragile, because of all the recent results and setbacks, they didn't have this proactive way of, of playing. They went back into the, we've got something to hold on to, like let's, let's be uber safe. But ironically, the more you play like that, the more you play back towards your own goal. And we saw what happened afterwards, so I think that must have been what Bernardo was talking about.
- [05:36]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, for sure.
- [05:37]
Sam Lee
Rory.
- [05:38]
Ayo Akimolere
Look, the headline really is, you know, one winning 11 for Guardiola's side. But in terms of the league table though, I mean, they're still in the race or semi in the race, you know, what is it? Nine points behind league leaders Liverpool, seven behind Chelsea. I think three points behind Arsenal in fifth. I mean, yes, on all fronts it looks pretty awful for Guardiola's side, but if they win three games straight and Liverpool drop points, it's not too unfathomable to see them float up the league table, surely.
- [06:07]
Sam Lee
Yeah, Liverpool are having the common decency to wait for them, which is really, I think, really kind. The problem City have got in terms of winning the league is that you need three teams to collapse and one team collapsing, always possible two, maybe three. It's unlikely. And certainly the, the form Chelsea are in, the fact that Arsenal with Odard back, I know they've had a couple of sort of slip ups recently, but Arsenal look like a team capable of putting a run together. I think that's probably fair to say. It's probably. This is the thing, it's City. So if it was anybody else you'd say, look, yeah, they are probably now out of the title race. If it was Arsenal who'd had this run, you'd be like, yep, fine, that's them done for the lead this year. But they can still get the top four because it's City. You can't. I don't really want to say they definitely won't win the League, but. But as Sam has sort of made clear in his reporting over the last, the last few weeks, if you looked at the kind of structural issues, whether that's injury or the size of the squad or whatever, it might Be. It's very hard to see City putting together the sort of run they need to put together to. To. To overhaul all three teams. Maybe one, maybe two, but all three, I think, is unlikely.
- [07:19]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, Sam would keep saying it, you know, caveat in it with. Because it is City, you can't write them off. But as we're seeing with what seems like a really unsavory trend at the moment for this team, those defeats just keep happening. But also, you know, we talk about injuries, we also talk about a team that's really lacking in confidence. Where do you see them building confidence back up? You know, that that derby game would have been a wonderful opportunity to seal off a game and see an upward curve.
- [07:46]
Rory Smith
I don't hold out much hope for the Villa away game because Villa have had their own struggles, but maybe the fact that because Villa have had a bit of a struggle, if City can do something there and I can't, I wouldn't, you know, if City had won the derby at the weekend, it wouldn't have been a good performance. You know, we watched it and up until 87, 88 minutes, we thought, well, they're going to win this match but not be brilliant. So maybe they could do something like that against Villa. And then, you know, they've got Everton after Christmas and Leicester away and there's. You can see potential there. But I'm sure it will turn around and I think they'll probably get top four and be all right come the end of the season. But I don't know exactly when that turnaround's going to come because there's just no respite. Like when they beat Forest, which was two weeks ago, and they look pretty good. It was okay, so what's going to go from here? And then in the second half, Akanji and Ake got injured and you think, well, never actually mind the result and that good stuff because there's now no wiggle room in the back line and then even in the midfield, it's like, okay, well, who plays against Crystal palace and who plays against Juventus then? Who plays in the Derby? And the answer was just like they'd all just keep playing, despite the fact that, you know, Gvardiol Lewis and he got banned anyway. Gundogan, Bernardo de Bruyne, they've not been playing great and they're just playing, playing, playing. So it's just this cycle and they're still in that, you know, unless a kanji comes back, that would help. They're still going to have the same kind of physical exhaustion Mentally, God knows where they're at. So I'm sure it will turn around and be relatively okay, but I honestly don't know when. Like I say, the fixtures over the next couple of weeks are okay, but then in January it gets quite horrible again, so they will need to find something by then.
- [09:24]
Sam Lee
What's been really interesting, I think, is that there have been moments where you thought, okay, that is the thing they need. So. And Sam's right, like, the emotional and the psychological and the physical fatigue isn't going to go away. But, you know, they beat Forest and you think, okay, that is. I think one of the. There was a podcast or an article somewhere that said, you know, our City now back. And you think, yeah, often what happens is a team, a really good team, sort of generation, defining team, in City's case, have a bad run, they get a win, and everything just kind of clicks back into gear. And even in the Derby, they score a goal that Guardiola himself clearly thought were quite fluky. And you think maybe that's what you need in that moment. You need the one like the proverbial goal that goes in off someone's backside is kind of the way you rate a bad run of form. And then that doesn't work either. So Sam's right. Like, they're not going to sort of not win any more games between now and May. They will probably beat Everton, they'll probably beat Leicester, they might beat Villa. They will put runs together where they. They win more games than they lose. And I think they'll. I think they'll get top four quite easily. But something has gone in City and it's. I think it's that it might even be the confidence that Sam was talking about at the start that I don't know how you get that back. There's two kind of things involved. It's not just how City feel about themselves, it's how the opponents feel about Manchester City. That kind of aura is really difficult to recover. It doesn't come back in a few weeks, and I think it probably doesn't come back in a few months. If City have a good January, February, March, in April, they'll still be teamster had thinking these are vulnerable, and that's not happened for a long, long time.
- [10:59]
Rory Smith
I think if City were to start getting it back and they win three games in a row, everyone's going to be like, okay, we're better hold off. But now I think. I think they go, yeah, we can really get at these. But I think if City were to say String a few results together over the next few weeks. I think teams will go, okay, hold on a minute. Or even, like you said, if it's February, March, April, by that point, I think teams will be like, oh, yeah, we had our chance, it's not now.
- [11:19]
Sam Lee
Yeah, you might be right. That if they. Maybe it depends on the performances. You know, if they. If they stuff Everton and stuff Leicester.
- [11:26]
Rory Smith
And then lose to West Ham, then there's obviously still instability there. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
- [11:30]
Sam Lee
Yeah.
- [11:30]
Rory Smith
But if they start thrashing everyone again, then it's over.
- [11:34]
Sam Lee
Yeah. Then that kind of changes pretty quickly. That if you're going to the Etihad and they've won four games in a row, five nil, then you're probably thinking, all right, these are probably quite good again. Whereas even if they're just winning games, two, one, and they're still not looking convincing, I think most coaches. This is the other thing that's marked this City decline, is that there's a lot of good teams in the Premier League, and that's always been the case. But this season, you go down to man united in what, 13th, and everyone, you know, Fulham are really good, Brentford are really good, and they will be facing teams for the most part. I mean, they've got a couple around Christmas who maybe don't fall into this category, but they'll be playing teams, for the most part, who will have ways of hurting them, and they'll be able to hurt them, not just because City are not what they were, but because the teams that they're facing are strong and worthy of respect.
- [12:23]
Ayo Akimolere
Now, Rory, you've written about knowing when to say goodbye to aging stars recently on the Athletic. You look at players in the City squad, de Bruyne at 33, Gundogan 34, Walker 34. Do you think they've missed a trick here in not at least getting in players or newer players who are City ready to play because this is a relatively aging squad?
- [12:47]
Sam Lee
Yeah, I think they've fallen to an extent into the trap that a lot of really successful teams fall into, which is not necessarily wanting to see things they don't want to see. They will have known, obviously. It's not a surprise to Man City that Kevin de Bruyne is 33. They're not. Oh, my God, have you seen how old Kevin De Bruyne is now? And same with Walker. Gundogan is a slightly different case. They brought him back as cover, and then because of the injuries, he's probably had to play more than anybody thought he would. And there's no question that having Ilkay around is a good thing for kind of morale and the dressing room. And he's a leader, he's a senior figure. There are non footballing benefits to the presence of Ilkay Dundogan. I think they've found it difficult to know when to make the big calls and they're not the first and they won't be the last successful team to do this that they have not been willing to maybe look reality in the face early. I think the really successful transitions are managed by spotting things early and maybe you lose six months where it looks like a mistake, but six months after that you realize that you made the right call because the replacement's bedded in. But the other thing that I think City there are question marks over City is their recruitment. The players they have signed I think have not, have not worked with the regularity, the consistency that they did two, three, four years ago. And I mean the one who is most newsworthy at the moment, I suppose, is Matthias Nunes. It's not just that Nunes hasn't really shone at Manchester City, it's the fact that they could have signed someone who would have done. It was a weird deal at the time and it doesn't look anything less than a weird deal now. Savinho, I think maybe makes sense, but perhaps he's a little bit less ready than they expected. And the other thing that's really struck me is Guardian has always liked to work with a small squad. He seems to have distilled that down into his core essence this year, letting Julian Alvarez leave. He obviously wanted to go and play regularly, but he was the player who played the most minutes for Manchester City last season. You let him leave and don't replace him. Even if you're looking at Oscar Bob and thinking he can step in, that's a big ask for a young, relatively inexperienced player. I wonder whether the first step in kind of City getting back to where they were will perhaps be to extend the number of players that Pep Guardiola wants to work with on a regular basis to. I mean, I don't know what Sam would estimate it as. I'd have said he likes it seems to like about 20, maybe, maybe not even that many senior players, senior outfield players, 17, 18.
- [15:12]
Rory Smith
He said the other day on Friday, he said, you know, this period's made me realize maybe we need to work with the 25, 30 man squad. And all the City fans were like, oh my God, finally. But I don't know why there's such like an oh my God, finally reaction to it. It's like, yeah, but that approach has been one of the fundamentals of winning all these trophies and playing all this great football. So it's like, it's probably one of the reasons now, combined with all the other bad luck with injuries and stuff and letting the squad maybe get to a point where it's not fresh enough. But the small squad thing in and of itself, clearly not a problem over the course of his time at City. But yeah, he has, he has acknowledged that he, he's thinking about that. But then when he, he mentioned that in the open bit of the press conference on Friday, but then in the embargoed section, which where he generally gives longer answers, and Friday was the day when City brought out their annual report and like record revenues and stuff like that. And he was like, he goes, so maybe it's time to have 25, 30 players like Chelsea have. But he was like, but if you do that, then there's no revenues. And it's kind of like, is he. I don't, it doesn't strike me as something he's actually going to do or that City will actually do. Maybe it's necessary, but like they're not going to get up to 25 players from the 17, 18 or so that they've got now.
- [16:20]
Sam Lee
Well, not least as you, if you do that, you're talking major surgery do I think the likelihood is that you see, and you will know this a lot better than I do, you'd expect three or four to go in the summer, the older ones particularly, maybe someone like Bernardo even who's been there a long time. There might be a sense that, I mean, he's been there a long time and tried to leave quite a lot, but there's maybe a point where you look at Bernardo and say, okay, look, you've been brilliant. You would still be a brilliant player for us, but we are going to go in this new direction election. If you're then adding a further six or seven players onto that, you're suddenly looking at a 10 player transfer window and City One start triggering all the.
- [16:54]
Rory Smith
Buyback clauses in their amazing young players that have been So I think, I.
- [16:59]
Sam Lee
Think there is a world in which Guardiola might be. Might be persuadable to get up to 21, 22. I don't think you have to go 24, 25, but I do think it's an interesting subject whether Chelsea have, and I would would guess it's accidental, but it might not be whether Chelsea have Worked out that with this expanded calendar, you need to change of players you have in your squad. You effectively need to be running two teams, which is at odds with what a lot of elite managers want. A lot of managers don't want to have those numbers of players because it's hard to keep them all happy, it's hard to keep them all fresh. It's hard to kind of get your message into that many players, which is why Guardiola wants that smaller squad. But maybe, maybe the Chelsea Madness has some method to it.
- [17:39]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, for sure. Well, as we're talking, Guardiola, Sam, I want to ask you how you interpreted Guardiola's comments that he's not good enough after the defeat to United. Here's a recap of what he said. I'm the boss, I'm the manager and I'm not good enough. It's as simple as that. I have to find a way to talk to them, to the train, to them, to the way you have to play, the way I had to press, the way I had to build up and I'm not good enough. I'm not doing well. That is the truth. What do you reckon, Sam? Is there a bit of protection of the players and the quality at which they're playing at this moment there?
- [18:18]
Rory Smith
I guess when he said that and I heard it because I couldn't go to the game the weekend because I was ill, but when I saw it after the game I was like, I presume this is just the old pressure on me scenario. But also I'm sure he's genuinely thinking that or was thinking that at the weekend because for me, and I think for him, their problems will be solved to a large extent. When the players start coming back from injury, I don't think, well, they won't be like the all conquering city once they start getting, you know, Akanji and Aki back and they can make a few rotations in the defense and, and Kovacic is back in midfield and this kind of thing, they're still not going to be like the Amazing City, but it will help. And then obviously they're going to go into the transfer market as well. And if they get some players in there, then, then that will help. So I think those are kind of the solutions. The solutions is to get the squad back as it is, as we've already mentioned, it's not perfect, but get it back at least so we can rotate players. Because like I said, after that forest game, you look at the next three matches and there's Just no wiggle room to do anything, really. And we know another big fundamental of his career has been, like, resting the players. Like, it was alien to us in the UK for a while. I think we're getting it now. But he would actively say, like, coaches like him and Luis Enrique would say, like, I don't want to play the same 11, two games in a row. Whereas, you know, when Rafa Benitez started doing that, he was the Tinkerman or Claudio Ranieri. He's like, what's he doing changing his team all the time. But these guys, they don't want to do that. They want to keep players fresh, and he's not been able to, so that. So I think for me and for him at the moment, the problems they've been having and the problems they will continue having until those factors change, until players start coming back from injury, and until they can maybe start to make the squad a bit fresher in the meantime, he's got to find a way with these guys who are playing too much, playing badly, to get results regardless. And I think that's where he means he's not being good enough, like, effectively, though. This is like a sticking plaster, this. It would be not a way to get back to their brilliant best, but just, you know, to survive. At halftime against Juventus of the night, it wasn't a great first half, it was nil. Nil. They'd have one chance. Haaland missed it, but they're surviving. That's all they need to do against United, if they won 1 nil with that fairly terrible performance, really, it's fine, just survive. I think that's what he means. He needs to find ways just to get them over the line. And you look at the United game, they didn't press as high, which makes sense. Partly because they're knackered, partly because the more they go and try and win the ball back, the easier it is to get around them. Because even when they weren't so tired and mentally exhausted as they are now, the problem with Gundogan and Bernardo at the moment, they haven't got the legs. Kovacic, when he was fit, he's a good player, but he still doesn't have the legs. That's why they're getting breeze passing midfield. And then when all the defenders are injured, all the really solid, dependable guys, that when Dias was out and Aangi and Ake, now Walker, obviously previously so good to bail you out on a transition, now he can't do it. If you're getting loads of counterattacks against you. And the defenders aren't there either. No wonder they're so weak. So Guardiola is trying to find these ways to, to find sticking plasters. But I've said this before, maybe on an athletic podcast, I've kind of lost track. But all the, all the, all the Guardiola solutions are problems. He's been stressing, you gotta press high, but they're going to press high. They're getting played around. And then when they've got the ball, the answer is always loads of passes. Loads of passes and extra men in the middle. But the guys who are supposed to be the most sure on the ball, like Gundogan and Bernardo, they're playing badly, they're giving the ball away, then they can't get it back because they're not physical enough, then the defense isn't there. But also if you've moved guys up into the middle, like the fullbacks, the spurs game, you know, Gardiol was high for the fourth goal or like Walker's high, and then he can't, and then they're out of position and then they can't get back. But they're doing all the right things. They're doing all the things that Guardiola thinks this is, this is how I play. This is what all my best teams have done. This is what we need to do. We need to keep the ball, we need to get men high, we need to press as quickly as possible. None of it's working because they're all just too jaded, basically. So, yeah, he needs to find the solutions. I think that's what he means.
- [22:19]
Sam Lee
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Accumulere.
- [22:25]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
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- [23:28]
Raj Panjabi
Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.
- [23:31]
Noah Michaelson
And I'm Noah Michaelson, also from HuffPost.
- [23:33]
Raj Panjabi
And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [23:40]
Noah Michaelson
Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.
- [23:48]
Raj Panjabi
And we're talking like legit credible experts, doctors, PhDs all around.
- [23:53]
Noah Michaelson
Superheroes from HuffPost and Acast Studios. Check out Am I Doing It Wrong? Wherever you get your podcasts, this podcast.
- [24:00]
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- [24:58]
Sam Lee
And City are badly stretched here. Lewis got in the way and a great ball over and a second goal. McKenn for Juventus. It's been all City since the opener, but with numbers committed forwards, they were wide open there and Juventus have made the most of it. Ilkay, I imagine a hugely frustrating and disappointing night for you. What's your reaction?
- [25:30]
Ilkay Gundogan
Yeah, it's very disappointing actually. I feel like we had chances to actually score a few goals, but at the moment it just feels like that every attack we concede is just so dangerous. I don't know, we. I have a feeling sometimes you're a bit careless, you know, in the duels and you know, instead of playing simple, we overcomplicate things and we miss the right timing, you know, to pass the ball, to release the ball and yeah, just, just lose balls and transition every time, you know, and give them, give them like counter attacks and have to chase every time, like, I don't know, 50, 60 meters back. And that's not what we built for.
- [26:13]
Ayo Akimolere
You know, I'm fascinated by that last sentence. That's not what we're built for. Often, you know, I guess the criticism of some of Guardiola's teams is that it can be semi mechanical. So to be built for something and not being functioning at this moment in time is quite interesting. Do you agree with that statement?
- [26:29]
Sam Lee
Yeah. I've been really struck actually by how many City players have come out and publicly said, this isn't working. We look really vulnerable, we're incredibly fragile. I don't know how to solve it. That is. It's quite unusual for players at any team to talk like that, I think. And it's, it's. It's actually quite a good illustration of, of how deep rooted the issues at City are that Sam's. I mean, Sam's summed up better than I can. But City are built, and I think that is the right word to. To play in a certain way, to dominate the game and to compress space. They are not designed to have one of those kind of Harum scarum frenetic styles that, I don't know, Klopp's Liverpool, where it's kind of everybody charged this way, then everybody charged that way, then everyone charged that way. And they're both completely valid stars and they can both be incredibly successful, but City aren't. City's playing squad doesn't really lend itself to that. Partly partly through age now, I think, and partly through the. The sheer number of games that they've played in the last three, four years, which is a factor as well. But also because that's not what Guardiola wants his games to look like. He doesn't want his team to do that. He wants them to have the ball and he wants them to deny the opposition any sort of space. What's happened is that basically because of the injuries, because of the vulnerabilities that have been introduced, City are now being forced to play games that they don't want to play. And they're not as good at doing it as they are at playing the way that they do want to play. And that makes sense how you solve that. Sam's right to say that once the injured players start coming back, that will help. I guess the problem that Pep has is that as he's waiting for Akanji and Akei to come back, he's asking an awful lot of, say, Ruben Dias. So what's to say? That Akanji comes back and then two weeks later Ruben Diaz does a hamstring. And that is the problem with fatigue and it's the problem with exhaustion. So whether there is a point, maybe, I mean, yeah, realistically there probably will be like March, say everyone will be back for City and it wouldn't be a shock if City won seven games on the spin. March to May or something. And to be honest, it wouldn't be a massive shock if they won the Champions League, because that would be roughly the right time for everyone to be coming back.
- [28:31]
Ayo Akimolere
But.
- [28:32]
Sam Lee
But in terms of the tactical, the way it's gone run tactically, I think that the situation around City has forced them, has basically allowed opponents to stop City doing what City want to do and to start doing what they want to do. And it's probably the first time in seven years that that's happened. Yeah.
- [28:47]
Ayo Akimolere
Sam, as we're talking about potentially extending this squad, I'm wondering whether or not City do business in January. You know, we talk about having to rotate this squad that's just literally coming back off injury and you're throwing them back on, on the field. And you know, you mentioned recently that the club announced a record revenues of 715 million pounds in their latest annual account, alongside profits of 73.8 million pounds. Is it as easy as saying grab a few players in January and all our problems are solved? I mean, it's much more complex than that. Sure, yeah.
- [29:19]
Rory Smith
Especially because we always say that City players need a season to bet in, so bringing them in in January, it won't necessarily help. But yeah, in terms of that. So the thing is, let's. So Rodri's going to be out for the season, so we know that. So even if everyone else comes back in, they'll still have a bit of fragility in the middle, in the sense that without Rodri, they don't really have the mobility of the legs. We saw that in October when they got that last minute winner at Wolves. They weren't massively convincing. They beat Fulham, but they gave up three huge chances on the break, all to Adama Traore. And you just think, oh, they look a bit unstable. And then obviously you take the extra injuries, then it unravels to this extent. So even with everybody back, there will still be that fragility there. So if they were to start making steps towards fixing that in the transfer market and like, like Rory mentioned with some of the players who might move on in the summer, if you can kick start that process now, if you can add a bit of fresh blood. Because, look, at this point, you know, the defeats themselves are standout. But like the. The three old draw against final, when you're three nil up with 15 minutes to go, that would have been the one where it was like, what is going on? And then obviously United the other day, United weren't great in the game either. It was just a poor game. And like I said earlier, I was kind of processing a very kind of below average City win, but then they couldn't even hold on to that. So the emotional damage of that. If you can fix that by bringing in some fresh faces as well, then, yeah, I think it's not the only solution to buy players in January, but it's definitely a good one. And if it doesn't happen in January, then it's going to have to happen in the summer. Because as well as those accounts you mentioned with those figures, last year they made 139 million in like, profit from selling players in terms of like, their net spend was that. And those accounts were submitted before they sold Alvarez and Xiao Cancello for about £100 million between them. And over the last five years they brought in 405 million from player sales. So in terms of PSR and whether they can spend. They can. And are they ready to, like, from. From what I've heard, yes, they are. Now they've just got to go out and find the players and make sure they settle in straight away, easy.
- [31:23]
Ayo Akimolere
Bringing players in January, getting them to hit the ground running. I mean, there are many players that really do that, especially for a team at this level. That's a solution. But I mean, it's much deeper than that, surely.
- [31:34]
Sam Lee
I think it is. You need. There's no question that this summer you'll see the sort of churn at City that we've not really been used to over the last, what, Sam, five years, something like that. There's been. There's been a fairly. The squad's been pretty constant. They've added a couple in the summer, but nothing, nothing major. A lot of the deals, the ones that have worked, Kovacic was a relatively low profile transfer. Everyone sort of one day Mateo Kovacic played for Chelsea and I said, play for Man City and everyone sort of went, yeah, all right, fair enough. Mateo Kovacic now plays for Man City. I think that there will be a lot of activity in the summer. I'd be standard if there's not in terms of. Yeah, Walker de Bruyne, you maybe keep Dunderwan around as a as what he was meant to be, which was a kind of a reserve and an influence in the dressing room. There might be others that they decide to move on. Yeah, Edison possibly. There's been long standing interest in Saudi and Edison. It may well be that even someone like Diaz might, you know, someone like, I mean Diaz isn't old, but if you're, if you, if you're reshaping the.
- [32:29]
Rory Smith
Squad for me, DS be the one they'd keep.
- [32:31]
Sam Lee
Yeah, that may well.
- [32:33]
Rory Smith
Because of the injuries.
- [32:35]
Sam Lee
Yeah, possibly. But you, yeah, you may well see sort of three or four older ones and then one or two slightly surprising bidding names go and that means you're. You're going to end up signing five, six, seven players. But I think if you can get ahead of that in January and if there are players that you want who you know you're interested in and you think, okay, let's get them in, even if they don't hit the ground running in terms of giving their absolute best fitting into the team perfectly, then. Then there are benefits to do to doing it. Liverpool actually have relatively good run of signings in January. Luis Diaz was a January signing and that the first six months there was. His performances were a little bit up and down, but he gave the team a real kind of injection of energy. I think there is a value to that. But also in City's case, it's just that renewed sense of competition. That idea of the reinforcements ARR giving players a break, that sense of new things are happening I think is really valuable. So yeah, I mean I, I'd be surprised if City signed fewer than two players in January. To be perfectly honest. It would strike me that a midfielder, a midfielder is a safe bet because ultimately Rodri's not coming back before next season. So you, you. You need an extra body in there and it makes sense to sign a midfielder. I don't know whether Sam would go for a. A forward or a defender. I guess it depends a little bit on Oscar Bob. City definitely kind of regard him as they saw him as Alvarez's replacement him early on, in fact, before the season started, I think made very little impact outside Man City, but within Man City was seen as quite significant. So whether you wait for him, I don't know and go and sign an extra body in defense. If there are players that City are interested and they will have a list of players that they like then and you see a couple that you think, okay, look, we can, even for a little bit of a premium, we can go and get him now, then I think now is probably the time to do it. The one, the one complication with City, the big cloud hanging over everything. I do wonder to what extent players are asking the question what happens if you're found guilty of the charges? I think that must you'd be a bad agent if you weren't asking that question. And I wonder to what extent that complicates the transfer market for them. My guess is that all it means is you have to pay everybody a bit more money because that's normally the thing that solves problems in the transfer market. But I do wonder if that is something that is a factor, like a complicating factor for citizens.
- [34:49]
Ayo Akimolere
Do you think that's true, Sam? That could be a complicated factor for players coming into the club.
- [34:54]
Rory Smith
I can't remember if we were just writing an if we wrote an article about it a couple of months ago or we were like just doing some groundwork for the whole charges related shebang. That's going to kick off at some point. But I seem to recall, certainly from what I've heard, but what colleagues posted as well, this has not really come up like agents, you know, because my assumption was agents would be like, okay, what's going on? Apparently it doesn't really come up. Obviously Citi don't bring it up. And agents don't really ask because they just think, well, let's just, let's just get this deal sorted. Maybe there have been agents of players who haven't come to City because of that, but that hasn't come to our attention anyway.
- [35:37]
Raj Panjabi
Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.
- [35:39]
Noah Michaelson
And I'm Noah Michaelson, also from HuffPost.
- [35:42]
Raj Panjabi
And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [35:49]
Noah Michaelson
Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.
- [35:57]
Raj Panjabi
And we're talking like legit, credible experts.
- [35:59]
Noah Michaelson
Doctors, PhDs all around, superheroes from HuffPost and Acast Studios. Check out Am I Doing It Wrong? Wherever you get your podcasts, this podcast.
- [36:09]
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- [37:05]
Sam Lee
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Accumulera.
- [37:12]
Ayo Akimolere
There was a comment from an Athletic reader actually, gents, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one. On a recent City piece actually, and the comment read, the longer this City crisis lasted, the more accolades you've got to give to Sir Alex. Considering the way he managed transitioning of his teams multiple times over the period of 26 years, is that a fair comparison to make? Guardiola's won the Premier League 6 in the last seven years, but also I'm just thinking about the spread of quality in the teams right now in the Premier League compared to Sir Alex's last season at Manchester United. I mean, where do you stand with that? Sir?
- [37:52]
Rory Smith
I just in the best possible way, I think it's irrelevant. I don't know why one thing has to be the other because this is a terrible run from City, but obviously we'll have to see where they finish. But Ferguson's United. The thing is, we know Ferguson's achievements are amazing and I'm not sure this adds anything extra to that because there was obviously periods and it's fine because it was 26 years, but there was three years when United didn't win the league League. Like it wasn't like Ferguson did amazing things but you can't look at this run and then make try and make them even better than they were. Like, I think Ferguson's always going to get the accolades. And yeah, like he's known, isn't he? Famously for like ruthlessly tearing up the squad. But there were periods where it didn't work. There were periods where they didn't win the league and there were periods where they had bad spells. Now yeah, this is, this particular spell has been horrific. But if City gets to the end of the season and finish in the top four, you know, if they finish 10th, you could say, oh, Alex, Ferguson never finished 10th. Not fair enough. But as it stands at the moment, like what Guardiola's done has been amazing this run at the moment is terrible. What Ferguson did was amazing, but he also had some periods which weren't great and they're not too dissimilar to this, you know, not winning the league for three years.
- [39:08]
Ayo Akimolere
Rory's laughing away there. Yeah, I can see him smiling.
- [39:11]
Sam Lee
I don't really know if. Is Alex Ferguson short of accolades? Is that. Is that thing. Have we. Have we. Do people not praise Alex Ferguson? I think what Sam says about not. Well, number one, Ferdy never did four in a row, did he? So, you know, maybe Ferguson's United did transition, but they did also have transitional seasons. And I think it's probably fair in hindsight to. To say that, yeah, they. They had like a span of three years and then they tended to not take a year off, but they dipped for a little bit. And somebody else, whether it was Arsenal, Chelsea or whoever, Blackburn kind of took their chance and that was. That was kind of the rhythm of it. And that's not to. That's not a slight to Ferdison, who is the most successful manager in British history. But it wasn't the case that Ferdy won every game for 26 years. There were, like Sam says, there were. There were lean moments, there were periods where he didn't win the league. He tended to be quite close to winning the league. But it may well be the case that City are relatively close to winning the league this time around. In the pandemic year 20, in 2019, 20, city had dip. It wasn't as bad as this, but they did have it. They seem to have reached the end of kind of Guardiola City 1.0 and Liverpool took their chance that year. City didn't win the league. It happens to all teams. It's. It's happened in relatively spectacular fashion to City at the moment. But there are, as we talked about, like, there are extenuating circumstances. The amount of injuries they are dealing with is not unprecedented, but it's fairly. It's fairly impressive. And so I don't know if. If it's anything, I mean, I suspect Ferdy had periods like this. Maybe not in exactly, exactly the same fashion, but it happens to all teams, it happens to all managers.
- [40:47]
Ayo Akimolere
Sam, what have you made of how Pep Guardiola has dealt with this situation as a whole? We've all seen the cuts and the scratches he's given himself on the touchline. We have to consider a human element as well. Right. This must be impacting him as well.
- [41:02]
Rory Smith
Oh, I don't know. Because, like, you know, in a year's Time in six months time. If he's not impacted by it, then no. Well, but it's difficult at the moment, you know, obviously. But it's like I was writing an article recently about, you know, when he said, oh, well, he keeps saying, doesn't he, If I feel I'm going to be a problem, I'll leave or the club might sack me or whatever. It's genuine. But all these things that he's saying, like, for example, when he talks about his vulnerabilities and stuff, and when he's asked about scratching and whatever, yeah, he does say that. But at the same time, in the same press conferences, he's incredibly defiant as well. He's talking about, like, he was asked on Friday, do you regret signing that new contract? He was like, no way. Like, he goes, I wouldn't be able to sleep if I was leaving now. I need to stay and fix this. Like a certain. And look, don't, don't get me wrong, he's a guy who kind of takes setbacks on the pitch very, let's say, emotionally, and this has been the case, like, forget this period existed. We know that he's kind of dramatic and emotional and rubs his head and scratches his head and kicks his seat, whatever. You know, this is what it's been like when his team are winning. So it's no surprise that it maybe goes a bit further now. But I think there's been like a kind of a certain image portrayed of this guy who's like, cracking up. It's like. Well, he's always said strange things for a start. He's always been emotional, like I've just said. But all these kind of pictures that are being painted do ignore all the defiant messages as well about, I want to stay more than ever. I'm more determined than ever to come into work work and find these solutions, you know, he says he's not. He's not sleeping brilliantly. He slept better before, but he'd always just want to get into work and look at the other team and work out what the solutions are. And in that sense, he's the same. So, I mean, there's. Yeah, there's some, some logical conclusions. Like, is he going to be enjoying life as much as he was when they were winning? No, but when they were winning, do you think he was, like, kicking his heels down the street? He was going to be stressed about it. So I don't know. Like, I don't know. I wouldn't say he's taking it well or badly. I said he's taking it as. As expected. Like, if things. Things are that bad. Like, when he says he's not good enough, it's because I think it's like, well, I'd love to have some solutions, but everything I'll try isn't working. But because they've got. The lads have got no legs, and I can't blame them because they're. They're the only ones who I've got. So it is what it is. And then you just answer questions about it all the time and you get.
- [43:13]
Ayo Akimolere
Asked questions about it.
- [43:14]
Rory Smith
Yeah, I'm kind of running out of things to say now. At least I can have some time off over Christmas, like.
- [43:20]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, it's a fair point.
- [43:21]
Rory Smith
Point.
- [43:21]
Ayo Akimolere
I guess it's sometimes hard to remember he's actually a mere mortal like us, Rory. Well, I wouldn't say like us, but he's a mere mortal. You know, I've seen this knocking about where certain fans are talking about, oh, probably time to part ways. You shouldn't have signed the deal. Could City part ways with Pep Guardiola? It's almost impossible, surely.
- [43:41]
Sam Lee
Yeah, I think there probably is a point where you. You have to say that's the only available option. If they were to still be in the midst of this sort of form, if it got to sort of three wins in 25 by March, then maybe you probably have in that situation, you probably have to consider it. But I don't think we'll get to that. So it remains in the realms of the hypothetical. It would be astonishing, I mean, astonishing. Yeah, Genuinely astonishing for them to sack him. I don't think they would sack him, but I do wonder whether there might be a point if things got really, really, really bad, where there was a kind of con of, well, look, this is the only available option now, because City can't be. Well, I suppose to an extent, if, as long as they were safe from relegation, City could probably tolerate it and they. They're probably not far off safe from relegation already. So it might be that they say, look, actually it doesn't matter, as long as we finish 17th, then. Then it's fine. As I say, I don't think it will come to this. And they'd be prepared to tolerate it. Yeah. If they can't even. Even if they find inconsistent form, you know, three wins in five or something, as long as they can do something like that, I think that conversation never even needs to happen. If they really can't break the streak, then maybe you have to have it at some point. But I can't see it myself.
- [44:59]
Rory Smith
For me, I think they both only start to talk about that once they've got the solutions, once players start to come back from fitness. Because right now the problems now are the same problems as they were in the middle of November. There's nothing they can do with that squad because there's still players out. There's no rotation they can do. They're still knackered. They're more knackered than ever. They're more mentally drained and shot than ever. And the transfer window hasn't opened yet. If they start to get players back and they sign players and they're still losing, then maybe that's when Guardiola oh, I'm not good enough. It's gone completely. But let's be honest, do we imagine that things will be better if they get a couple of players and people return from injuries? That would be the only point to have that conversation. I think now it's like, well, the problems are the same problems as six weeks ago. So that you hear that thing, oh, any other manager will be under pressure by now. It's like, well, do you want to work out why Guardiola isn't for a start? But also so not just because of his own achievements, but, you know, City aren't the kind of knee jerk operation to be like, oh, well, you know, we're still losing, so what we're going to do, like, the problems now are the same problems as the start of the run once things start to get better. In that sense, if there's no improvement, then there might be that conversation. But I don't see why it would be now because the problems are still there and worse than ever, really.
- [46:12]
Ayo Akimolere
Can you see any glimmers of hope here, Sam? I'm just thinking for the sake of balance. We've spent the entire podcast ripping apart what's going wrong with City, but can you offer fans listening to this any glimmer of hope, anything that's potentially where we can see them changing this trajectory?
- [46:29]
Rory Smith
Well, I was asked this on Friday and I don't think it's a lost addressing room situation. It's not one of those things where they're not running. You can see in the games now the danger is now after the derby, maybe that last flicker's gone out, but you can see in games, they're there, they're trying, they're doing what they need to do despite all the setbacks, despite all the defeats. That Forest Game game, when they won, they scored after like seven or eight minutes. Before that, I was like, this was a few days after the Liverpool game when they were like, played off the pitch, pretty terrible. The Forest game comes back and it's like they're running, they're doing everything they need to do. The energy's there. No matter how many times they've been knocked down, they keep going and doing what they need to do. And you think that's. It's probably the minimum, but you can't take it for granted. And now, like I say, maybe after the United game and the way that's gone and how painful that will be, maybe that's going to be even harder to do. But I think the fact that they're willing and they're there and they're willing, it's not working at the moment for all the reasons we just talked about, basically just lack of legs, I think, at this point, lack of freshness, mentality. But they're there, they're trying. And as long as they're trying, once you add in the other ingredients, like the players back from injury, maybe a couple of signings, that's where I think you see, like, hope. I think they'll finish in the top four. I did say a couple of weeks ago, I think they were in the Champions League. In the last couple of weeks, I started to feel like, I mean, where.
- [47:48]
Ayo Akimolere
Are they, the running?
- [47:49]
Rory Smith
Are they.
- [47:49]
Ayo Akimolere
They just got to make the playoffs, don't they?
- [47:51]
Rory Smith
If they end up in a playoff, then that playoff's in February and surely it's going to be all right by then. That. That's what I'm feeling. You know what I mean? Like, if they, if they get in the top four, that's not going to be. Now, if they get in the top four, that's going to be because they win. You don't have to win loads of games to get in the top four, either. The team that finishes fourth isn't the best Premier League team ever, is it? Like, you see, like, top teams fall over the line to get fourth, and yet if they were to kind of of win a playoff in February and then play a proper Champions League knockout game in March, it's not the end of the world. But, yeah, it's hard to see. But, yeah, just the fact that, the fact that they're there, they're going. They're going through the motions, they're doing what they need to do. It's pretty much the only thing you can do at the moment.
- [48:29]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. Rory, Champions League. That's interesting you mentioned it. At the top. Do you think City is still in it for the Champions League.
- [48:35]
Sam Lee
Yeah. Because as Sam says though, by that stage there is. Look, there is a loop element to an injury crisis that City will find it hard to escape from, just as any other team would. But by the business end of the Champions League, they. They should have the bulk to the players back. They will have lost time to make up for. Ironically, some of those players won't play very much football. So I think it would be. There's a limited number of teams who can win the Champions League anyway. If we're all completely honest, there's maybe three from England, two from Spain, one from Germany and one from Italy. League. And maybe psg. I don't know how seriously we're taking PSG at the moment. Breast have been amazing in the Champions League. They're not going to win it. So, yeah, they are one of the eight teams who can win the Champions League is how I put it. But it might, it might work out for them in terms of getting the players back, building up ahead of Steam, having a strong finish to the season. If I was Guardiola at the moment, he doesn't work like this, but I do, I would be thinking probably not going to win the lead. It's relatively unlikely because as we said before, like, you need three teams to fall. Not fall apart necessarily, but three teams to really hit the buffers and three teams doing that is unlikely. You know, Liverpool may well fall away, but Chelsea will be there to keep up the pace. And if Chelsea don't, then Arsenal do have a head start on City. But the Champions League is a little bit more of a lottery. I think the danger is Sam's right, the playoff round in February. They are more likely than not to be in the playoff round rather than qualify automatically. They might still be feeling the effects of the injury problems, then they might not have got their confidence back. And that massive, mega extendable Champions League table is a mess. It doesn't look like it's supposed to look. There's lots of teams who are in very much the wrong position as far as Europe's elite football teams are concerned. So it may be that that playoff game is a lot harder than City would like it to be. It might be that they get Dinamo's argreb and it's all fine. But I went to Brugate Sporting last week. Bruges, who will, I think, qualify for the knockout for the playoffs. Bruges, quite good team. And City got them last in the. In the group stage. I'm sure City will win that if they need to win that, but Bruges will give them problems, and teams of that ilk will give City problems. If it's this city that turns up, if they get Real Madrid, then it's a different matter entirely. But yeah, if I was Guardiola, I would be thinking, obviously the FA cup has not started yet for City, so that's always an option. But I'd also be looking at the Champions League and thinking that is probably your more realistic trophy route this season than the Premier League.
- [51:00]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, fantastic. Let's leave it there. City fans. You heard it there. Champions League or the FA Cup. Thanks, Rory. Thanks Sam. Thank you so much for listening. We're back tomorrow.
- [51:11]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [51:20]
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- [52:47]
Rory Smith
Acast powers the World's Best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
- [52:55]
Sam Lee
Hey folks, it's Marc Maron from WTF. It's been more than 15 years now and I'm still talking to all kinds of people in my garage every week. Sometimes it's Bill Burr, sometimes it's Ariana Grande. She just looks at me because she's always going like dad, it's not that big a deal. Yeah, I go sorry, I lost my temper. I go, I still love you. You know, Daddy has issues.
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Rory Smith
Well, I don't know.
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Sam Lee
I think about it all the time.
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Raj Panjabi
How are we here already?
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Sam Lee
Listen to WTF with Marc Maron twice a week on your favorite podcast app. Or get more WTF with a WTF plus subscription. Just go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere.
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Rory Smith
Acast.com.