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- [00:00]
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- [01:54]
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- [02:02]
Mike Finnoya
Remember blowing into a video game cartridge or taping songs off the radio? How about Saturday morning cartoons? Hey AOL chat rooms. Did we just age ourselves? Yep, we're Mike Finnoya and Charles McBee, two comedians getting nostalgic and asking that nagging question. Are we old? Relive the laughs, the cringes and the nostalgia. Are we old? Podcast right here on Acast.
- [02:37]
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- [02:52]
IO Akimwaleri
Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, IO Akimwaleri. On Tuesday, Manchester United announced that they intend to build a hundred thousand capacity new stadium rather than redevelop their existing Old Trafford home. The news comes shortly after Sergey Ratcliffe stated the club could run out of money by Christmas without cost cutting. So with concerns around Manchester United's finances, how would this development be paid for and how will it affect on pitch ambitions? Joining us today, we've got the Athletics, Mark Critchley as well as Matt Slater. Right, Critch, let's get into this. Can you give us some detail around this new stadium plan because it's made global news. I've seen those slides. It looks rather interesting to me anyway.
- [03:40]
Mike Finnoya
Yeah, so, I mean, yesterday was the big day, right? So after a year's worth of deliberation, a lot of speculation, United finally announced the decision that they've chosen to build a 100,000 seater capacity stadium, a new build and that's instead of essentially redeveloping the existing Old Trafford. So that means they're all going to plan United will leave their home over the last 115 years and at some point in the future they'll move into an entirely new stadium. It's going to be built next to the existing site where Old Trafford currently is. Essentially, United believe they can do that in five years, but that'd be by the start of the 2031 season. They think they can do that because the big plan is to build a lot of these components, 160 components off site, float them up the Manchester Ship Canal and then put them all together like a big Lego or Meccano set. But there's still a big question about funding, there's still a big question about the government support. United have said the public money won't be used for the stadium, but it is still needed for a lot of the infrastructure demands around the project that are tied up in that. So that's the decision. And then also yesterday, like you say, we also saw the design and for people who haven't seen it, it's kind of like there's a lot of different ways of describing it. Right.
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IO Akimwaleri
Be nice.
- [04:56]
Mike Finnoya
Well, look, I think basically it's a modern stadium. I think like if you look at it, it's sort of like the Allianz arena in Munich. The big difference is though that it' a giant canopy draped over the top of it. Now if you, if you listen to the architects, this is because they found out there's 136 days of rain in Manchester, famously, and they wanted it covered up. So it's essentially there's a big umbrella on top and then this is held up by three large masks that sort of represent the devil's trident on the United badge. I think the tallest of them is 200 meters tall. It'll probably be the biggest structure in the Manchester skyline. And on a clear day, apparently you'll even be able to see it from the outskirts of Liverpool. So that's. That's the design. There's been positive feedback, there's been negative feedback back. People say it looks like a circus tent, like something off the planet, Naboo, like something the Homer Simpsons carved out. A mashed potato. I've heard as well, you know, there's a lot of different opinions on it. And personally speaking, you know, if I'm allowed to get my soapbox for a minute, I think I would have liked to see more elements of the current Old Trafford in there. You know, I think when I think of Old Trafford, I think of the red of the brick, I think of the white of the cantilevers on the roof. I think of that industrial history that Manchester has that, you know, is spoken a lot about in this design, but I don't really see it in the design and the Trident. I mean, you wouldn't rebuild Anfield in the shape of a Liverbird or the Emirates in the shape of a cannon. So I don't quite see the relevance there, personally speaking. But that's my opinion. There are a lot of opinions on it. And I don't know how much everyone's opinions matter, because this is the direction that United want to go in now, and this is going to be the future for Old Trafford.
- [06:27]
IO Akimwaleri
Yeah. Very quickly, before I move on to Matt, who came up with this idea, whose decision was it for this to happen? Because I heard Sergey Ratcliffe on a recent podcast with Gary Neville. It felt like this is something they've been talking about for a fair bit of time.
- [06:39]
Mike Finnoya
It is. It's been something that's been up for, like I say at the top, like months of consultation, months of discussions. You've had the task force in place, which has had a lot of leading local figures on it. Andy Burnham, leader of gmca, leaders from Trafford Council, SOFA Council, Gary Neville, like you mentioned. So all these. All those figures have been involved in this process over the last few months. You know, the task force, essentially their job was to look at both options, either new build or redevelop the existing structure and weigh up the pros and cons of those, too. But I think it's important to say that the task force was never designed to give the decision. The decision has always been the clubs. And I think we can simplify that even further by saying the decision was always going to be Jim Ratcliffe's. I mean, this is his pet project. It's been his focus essentially from the moment that he came in as a part owner of the club. It's his legacy, it's his vision, it's his favourite architect who's leading the designs. This is the mark that he wants to leave on the club as part of his ownership and this is very much his thing.
- [07:38]
IO Akimwaleri
Okay, Matt, let's get real here. Giant umbrellas cost a lot of money. Whichever way you look at it, new stadiums cost a lot of money. We've seen what happened to Arsenal and how they weren't able to spend through the period of the Emirates. Spurs have been hampered financially. I mean, it's not uncommon for teams to be hampered financially when you are going to build a brand new stadium. But also you have a team like Manchester United currently struggling on the pitch and they're going to need money to bolster ranks on that field to help Ruber Amarim, if he's the man for the future. Where's the money coming from?
- [08:08]
Matt Slater
There's a lot in there, Ayo. Everything from their football team to. Yeah, where's the money going to come from? Well, look, this is the great unanswered question. So people did try. They tried with both Sir Jim Radcliffe and with the chief executive, Omar Berarda. Sir Jim, who has been very much sort of, you know, it can happen with these little round of interviews. I think he described it as eminently financeable. And he did a little kind of detour onto what he's doing with ineos and the fact they're building this massive plastics plant basically in Antwerp called Project One. It's really, really controversial. We have written about it, even though we are, of course, a sports site and that's even more expensive than football stadiums and more controversial. Now, Omar Berarda was asked, and I thought he gave a little sort of interesting clue, he basically fudged it as well and said, I can't tell you, we don't know. Everything's on the table. Laurie Whitwell, our colleague, asked a few, you know, could it be this? Could it be this? Yep, yep. Naming rights, of course, loans, all of the above. Right. He said it's all on the table. But he prefaced his answer by saying, look, as a plc, which Manchester United are. They're listed in New York. I can't really go into too much detail, which, on the face of it is true. Right. If you are a listed company, you are not supposed to kind of reveal really important bits of Company information, both sort of about what's happened and what you're going to do next without kind of making sure all shareholders know all at the same time.
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Mike Finnoya
Right.
- [09:46]
Matt Slater
So there is a sort of reporting element. When you are a public listed company, everyone should know stuff at the same time. So no one's at a disadvantage. Like the company's doing really, really well or it's doing really, really badly. We've got to tell you. Right. So that's why there are press releases, quarterly statements, all that stuff. I think they are being incredibly sensitive around the ownership of Manchester United and have been for quite some time, ever since Sir Jim bought in. He initially bought, I can't remember if it was 26 or 27. He's up to about 29 now. He's the biggest individual shareholder. Of course, the Glazers do work as a kind of a block, as a family unit. They might not be the happiest family unit in the world, but they are still working as a unit. And then there is sort of a third group, which is the institutional investors who have bought into Manchester United as a long term investment, some of them as a short term investment, because they kind of hoped they were going to make a killing in the takeover saga. And I have long thought that Jim Ratcliffe is only doing this, all of this, like spending so much time and effort and reputation on Manchester United because he does eventually think he's going to own, if not all of it, certainly most of it. There is no way. This was his show. It's his favorite architect. It's him doing the press. There are no quotes from the Glazers. He's been making all the decisions at the club. He's the one that's taking all the flak. The Glazers are literally counting their money in Florida. This has been an incredible, incredible two year period for them where they've, where they found this bloke to one give them a load more money and then take all the crap. Or can we say crap? But anyway, take all the. Take all the. Take all the heat. All right, good. I've said it once, you said it twice. You can't unsay it. Yeah. Anyway, that's what, that's what Sir Jim's doing. Well done, Jim. And all right. And now he's getting to make really big calls. He's getting to make big calls around who should be who, the manager and which players he likes and the stadium. I think that, what this is a very long weeded answer. They're going to do a bit of everything. Of course they do naming rights. I'm sorry, that's just, it's just money left on the table. It might not be what every fan wants to hear. Traditionally, new builds much easier than old builds because no one uses the new name. But they do. With a new building, will they get rid of all of Old Trafford? New Trafford? That's not my call. It's not my club. I suspect it'll be the something new Trafford, the something Old Trafford. Right. That is for a new build, 10 year deal. That's 250 to 300 million quid. There's talking about 2 billion. I suspect it will go up. It always goes up. But there's a good chunk there. They'll do bonds at a blend of loans. That's what Real Madrid did. It's what spurs did. It's kind of what Arsenal did though. They had some property. I'll get onto the property in a bit. It's what you do. Right. And because of the name of Ineos, the name of Manchester United, the kind of banks they already borrow from their revenues, they'll be fine. So when Sir Jim says eminently financeable, he knows that the bank of America, Goldman Sachs, hsbc, all these big banks will lend them the money. The interest rate will be interesting. They're already paying a lot of interest, so it'll be a bit of that. And I think he's going to put some money in. He's going to put some money in. We know the Glazers aren't. So he's putting money in. That's where we get into the ownership. That's where we get into. My point about Omar Berada being kind of coy around as a plc, I've got to be careful what I tell you. I think we're getting a great big signal here about Sir Jim Ratcliffe owning more of Manchester United and this being part of it.
- [13:46]
IO Akimwaleri
It kind of takes us back to the old club fan who becomes a chairman that buys their favorite club. You know, it's, it's quite interesting. It's like harking back into history. But crit. I'm just looking forward as well. You know, one of the biggest issues United fans have right now is ticketing and, and the prices of tickets going up. You want a brand new structure, all those shiny lights, all those. That great big umbrella over the top. Surely that's another thing we're going to be thinking about as we move forward.
- [14:12]
Mike Finnoya
Yeah, absolutely. And ticket pricing isn't just really an issue moving forward in terms of the new stadium. It's a live issue right now. You had the round of interviews that Ratcliffe did earlier this week where he mentioned that there's going to be decision on next season's ticket prices within the next couple of weeks. He said that we can expect that soon. And I think United fans have been braced for an increase in ticket prices because they've already experienced that once already this season. There was the mid season ticket price rise back in November that wiped out concessions sessions that was forced in without much consultation. This has been the direction of travel for some time and I think you could see that amid all the optimism and all the drive for a nice positive update in terms of the stadium yesterday from the club in reaction, the statements from fan groups like the Manchester United Supporters Trust and the 1958 group, they were all referencing the fact, well, is this going to drive up ticket prices? Are the fans essentially going to be paying for this? Is this going to force local fans out of the stadium and increase tourism on it? You know, one of the main takeaways I think from yesterday was when Ratcliffe was speaking to media, he referenced this stadium project and compared it to the Eiffel Tower and he was saying, you know, you can go to Paris, stay in a hotel, then you visit the Trocadero and you see the Eiffel Tower and it brings millions of people from across the world to come and see this thing. That was speaking about the stadium project as though it's more of a tourist attraction. When I think first and foremost, a lot of people would argue that the priority should be football, it should be the fans. And so I think, I think that was perhaps a little sign, a little tell. And we're asking about the financing right here. I wouldn't be surprised if one part, maybe not a significant part, but one part of it is through increased matchday revenues in order to pay for it. Because that is still the big question, as Matt's spoken about, how will they pay for this?
- [16:11]
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- [17:14]
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- [17:50]
IO Akimwaleri
Matt. We've alluded to it a few times. You know, the interview with Gary Neville was really fascinating because he spoke about a lot of stuff including squad members being overpaid and things like that. But even just back to what Christian said in terms of it, you know, being this great big tourist attraction, I don't know from my side of things and I know potentially there are investors in place. It felt like a massive investor pitch. You know, look at this shiny new thing. If you, if you give us a couple of hundred million, this could be yours. This is your return. All millions of fans, the biggest global fan base, the most profitable club in the next three years. I mean, those are the big signposts to say, can't be invest in us, we're ready to do something big.
- [18:29]
Matt Slater
Oh, absolutely. I mean, look, and to be fair, right, this is a big regeneration project for an area, right? I think they're calling it Trafo Wharfside. I used to work not far from there at the BBC and, you know, some progress was made 10, 20 years ago. It's the old Manchester Ship Canal. But there's more to be done, right? And I think anyone that knows the area will be aware that it sits. Manchester United sits at the eastern end of Trafford park, which is the world's first industrial park, certainly the UK's first industrial park. It's a, you know, a place steeped in history. All allusions to Paris and Eiffel Tower should stop now, right? It's not, it's not pretty. It is what it is. It's a It's a, it was an industrial park. There's a ship canal over there and there's a lot of land and buildings not doing a great deal. They're being used for stuff, but they're not, they're not like particularly productive. Manchester as a city is booming. That corner, that slither, if you like, that slice of the pizza is clear. It's ripe for redevelopment. So there's a lot going on. You're right. So there is an element of pitching to investors, pitching to banks, lend to us, get involved. I mentioned property in my first answer. I think this is one of the really interesting things that very, very few questions were asked. About 17 homes. That's huge. I just did a, you know, back of fag packet calculation. This is very, very rough, right, because one, we don't know how many of these homes are actually on Manchester United's footprint. One of the key things about Manchester United and the whole stadium thing and the club, their history, if you like, why they moved to that part of town is they own a lot of land. So they're very different story to Arsenal and to Chelsea and nearly all the London clubs, really. Manchester United have always had this big footprint of land. It is hemmed in. Train line. I've already mentioned the canal is another canal as well, just to confuse you. There are two canals. It's tight, it's not a perfect shape and they're going to have to get some land. This is. We're going to get into this with the whole council thing and the government, but they have a lot of it. But just remember that number of houses. So I don't know how many of these houses are on their, on their land, but when I looked just a quick. What is the average profit on a new build home in the uk? Right now I was trying to think about property prices in Manchester. It's about 250,000 for an average. An average property. Who knows, in 5, 10 years time it could be 300. These are going to be nice. There'll be a mixture. Right, but just on, right now it's about 60 grand profit on a profit on a brand new property on a brand new build. Right, so 17,000 times, right, that's a billion. It's a billion pounds. It's a billion pounds on the property. Now again, I don't know because they haven't explained. We've seen the pictures, we've seen the tent, we've seen the people frolicking in the sunshine and watching May united beat someone 3 nil and all that Stuff we've all picked out all the pictures, but I have not seen clearly where these houses sit and all the other little businesses that they're going to bring. So this is really interesting. They're talking about the station. There's good stuff. There's genuinely good, exciting stuff. Not just for banks to lend on, but for Manchester City Council to get excited about, for the Government, for Rachel Reeves, the Charles, Rick Stecker, for Keir Starmer to get excited about. And this is, I think, all part of the story, right? Radcliffe, Glazers, Ineos, whoever it is, the banks are going to build their stadium. Great. But you can't just let that spaceship drop now and go, there you go. Because it's already pretty hard to get out of there when there's 70,000. Now we're going to go 100,000. We want it to be great as well. We want this to be a really good experience. You want people to come like they're going to the Eiffel Tower and they want them to come back and we want it to be high on TripAdvisor. We want this to be the best thing in the world. Right. So the whole experience has got to be good. The absolutely obvious thing, the most obvious thing that's got to happen first is the rail depot to the west of the stadium. They need that now. You don't move rail depots like that. This is a logistics hub. It's owned by Freightliner. It's got to go, but it's in the wrong part of town. Anyway, everyone would kind of agree it needs to be out closer to the motorways. Great. So Andy Burnham agrees, the Mayor agrees, probably Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves agrees. Well, go on then, go do it then. What's our track record in this country like, of doing stuff like that? It's not particularly good. So this whole five year thing, Brilliant. I can see how you could build a stadium in five years if you're going to do a modular. Great. I'd love to sort of see you try. I mean, really clever people are going to do this. Don't forget Sir Jim Radcliffe is quite a clever bloke. You know, sort of engineering background, engineering and finance. I agree that it's possible the help they're going to need is moving things like a rail depot out to wherever they're thinking St Helens or somewhere. But this is how we get all our deliveries, by the way. This is how we keep our supermarkets stocked. It's important without being too local here. But if you haven't been To Old Trafford. If you haven't tried to drive out of Old Trafford. The main road south to the M60, which is the Manchester sort of orbital road. It's a two lane road that twice narrows into one lane for no apparent reason and has traffic cones. Traffic cones that have been there for as long as I've lived up here. They've been there for, for about a decade.
- [24:03]
IO Akimwaleri
Matt, you're starting to sound like grumpy dad here.
- [24:05]
Matt Slater
Come on. I have so much respect for people that do motorway maintenance, but I do not understand why there are still traffic clones on closing one lane. Is it called the Chester Road? Isn't it the one down to the M60?
- [24:21]
Mike Finnoya
Yeah, yeah.
- [24:22]
Matt Slater
Someone please, someone please. That works. Tell me why that lane is shut. So these are things I worry about.
- [24:29]
Mike Finnoya
I'm not worried about the Big Ten.
- [24:30]
Matt Slater
I'm not worried about the Trident. I'm worried about how, how when I drive my kids to Manchester United, I get home.
- [24:36]
IO Akimwaleri
You know what I thought was a little disjointed is that on one side you're talking about. So Jim Ratcliffe's talking about this incredible expansion, the stadium being built and all this kind of stuff. And then on the other hand, he's talking about, you know, the club potentially going bust by Chr Christmas, talking about players, you know, being overpaid and things like that, you know, cutting costs. I mean, you don't say we're broke and then in the same sort of breast say, yeah, we're going to spend about 2 billion quid on a stadium. I mean, the math just isn't mathing for me.
- [25:03]
Mike Finnoya
No, and I understand that contradiction and it's one that a lot of people pointed out yesterday. And I think it's a totally fair point to raise. And I think it's exactly why Matt's right to be skeptical about this five year timeline, let alone the traffic cones or congestion on Chester roads. You know, there's freight, turbos, whatever, there's, there's the big finance question here, right? And yeah, look, Jim's comments the other day, I mean, he was talking at the same time you were saying about the club going bust before Christmas. I think we all, you know, Matt as well, I'm sure maybe raised an eyebrow to that and to say, well, could that really happen? Is that really possible? But he was also talking about the club being the most profitable in the world within three years. This is a club that hasn't posted a profit in five years. It's also a club that needs to spend a lot of Money to make the team competitive again. And you're doing all that while you're trying to finance a new stadium. It's kind of like you're trying to juggle too many balls on your first day at clown college. To continue the circus metaphor here. And the big tent thing, this is. It's too much going on at once to really realistically achieve, especially within that timeframe. And I think it's only right. And it actually would kind of be irresponsible not to treat what, on our part as journalists, not to treat what Ratcliffe is saying here with a heavy, heavy dose of skepticism.
- [26:15]
Matt Slater
Well, I mean, I completely agree with Mark. And among the things that haven't really been said, loads has been said and we've seen great pictures, there's been enormous amount of comment, we've written lots of stuff, so have all our peers. All good stuff. There's been very little talk from important people that matter about the Glazes. They are just this elephant that's constantly there. They're in every room. And clearly there's like code. It's a bit like kind of, you know, people used to talk about criminologists, people that used to try and work out what was going on in the Soviet Union. You'd be looking at pictures, you'd be looking at who's standing next to who and who shook whose hands first, all this sort of stuff.
- [27:00]
Mike Finnoya
Right.
- [27:00]
Matt Slater
So the Glazers aren't in the press release. The Glazers have been nowhere to be seen. They're kind of there, but not there. Radcliffe has to be very careful about how he criticizes them. So he can say things like, we've spent too much money and he can throw players under the bus and he can talk about, you know, lucky chemistry with Ashworth. He can sort of pick on certain individuals who, because they don't, frankly, they don't really matter to him. But he cannot do the obvious. He cannot point out that the reason we're losing so much money, the reason we're not profitable, the reason I have to sack regular folk, is because we are still lumbered with the takeover debt of the Glazers, who have done absolutely nothing to address that. And they are still a huge anchor, I'm not swearing now, on this club. He'll imply that Anthony was a bad buy. He'll tell a funny story about Jadon Sancho. They're not going to sue him. He hasn't done a deal with them, he hasn't signed an anti disparagement agreement with them. But the real problem, and has been for a very long time, are the Glazers. They don't put money in, they take money out. And the classic way to do this stadium would be a combination of a little bit of equity from the shareholders, borrow a big chunk, do a naming rights deal, get partners in. If you've got some property to sell, like Arsenal did, great. Even better. Normally when you're building a new one, you have your old one to sell. They're not going to do that because they're going to use that space, but because they've got council buy in, they're going to do the houses and everything else. So that's fine. So it becomes a sort of, if you don't do it one way, a bit of borrowing, bit of cash, a bit like when you buy a house, you put a deposit down and you borrow the rest and maybe you've got another, you've got your old house to sell. All right, this is how you do this stuff. But the main shareholders, I just, for those not watching, I've got my arms folded, I'm drinking an imaginary pina colada and I'm in Florida and I am paying zero attention, zero attention to anything we're talking about. And the fact they wouldn't even know about the traffic cones on the road down to the M16 because they've never been. No.
- [29:18]
IO Akimwaleri
Well, gents, I just want to talk a little bit more about how Man United are going to carry on, on pitch antics and be successful on the pitch while they've got big development looming. Because Manchester United's chief exec, Omar Barrada, was asked whether the stadium plans would impact the club's on pitch goals and recruitment.
- [29:35]
H
We don't want to inhibit our ability to invest in the team for us to continue being competitive whilst we're building a new stadium. So there, there's various ways around that and, and one of the, the, the things that we're looking at is to shorten the construction timelines so that we can have a new stadium within five years. That's our ambition. In the meantime, by getting our finances back in order and becoming profitable, we believe that we can be very competitive. The big, big benefit that this club has is it has the biggest fan base in the world and therefore has the ability to be the number one club in terms of revenues that it generates.
- [30:12]
IO Akimwaleri
Matt, this is a really fascinating one because I was actually going to ask you about the comparison to Arsenal, but actually when he was talking about the biggest fan base in the world, the most profitable club in the world. It got me thinking about, okay, so who's the other most profitable club world? Real Madrid, right? They're the biggest. Real Madrid have built a brand shiny new stadium and I know they built it in Covid, but you know, if I'm going to come to this shiny new stadium, who am I watching? Vinicius Junior Mbappe, Rodrigo Bellingham? You know, you, you've got the current Champions League holders, you've got this rich heritage of a winning team. The best young players in the world, Manchester United are miles away from that. So you're going to build all this new infrastructure, but if you're not winning, is it as desirable?
- [30:56]
Matt Slater
Let's go with real because you're right. So Real have basically probably got the best stadiums. There's an argument between them and spurs, right? But Rails is bigger, it's newer. So let's say that they've got it and it's cost them. How much did it cost them? 1.5 billion. In the end, they basically took three massive loans out. That's on the table for Man United and I suspect they will borrow some money. Point one, just you've already mentioned one good piece of timing, right? The fact they were able to start during COVID Well done then. Good luck. They made a bad situation. They spotted it and thought, oh, this is good, let's crack on now because minimize the downside. They also got luckier than Manchester United are right now with interest rates. So by and large, interest rates are about 4 and a half to 5% in UK US. That's where they're at. I think the first great big loan Real got was at about one and a half. The next one was about two. They probably borrowed the most recent one, they borrowed 3ish, 3, 4. So just lower interest. Likewise spurs, right? So spurs borrowed a hell of a lot of money, loans and bonds, over 25, 30 years at very low interest rates before interest rates started to really tick up two, three years ago. So, you know, there's a timing issue there, there's a luck issue there. Second thing I think to say about Real compared to United, not just now, which is obvious, but I think really to the Premier Leagues, even the big six, right? When you're Real and Barca, you pretty much have a guaranteed seat at the Champions League. There's three good teams, right? There's those two, Atletico and ideally they're sort of a challenger team. Sometimes there isn't even a challenger team. So Real or Barca have to be pretty bad not to qualify for the Champions League. That's not the case anymore. Thank God for any of our big six or seven or eight, whatever we call them these days. If they're not good, one of the other lot is going to take their Champions League slot and United are in that problem right now. So there's a bit of bad luck, bit of bad timing, and there's just this sort of Premier League vs Spain La Liga issue where Man United cannot afford to just be off it like they have been for several years and to get back in is hard and expensive. So they're not insulated in the way that Real and Barca have. Both Real and Barca have been able to do this whilst loading up on debt. They've made mistakes, but they've sort of both got there. Real have done it better than Barca, I'd argue. So, you know, they're good comparisons, they're the right comparisons, but they're not precise comparisons. Both those two Spanish clubs have advantages over Man United in their current predicament, which a lot of it is self inflicted because they just have run the football department badly. So those I think are the sort of main things I'd like to say on that point.
- [34:08]
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- [34:38]
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- [34:50]
Matt Slater
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- [34:59]
IO Akimwaleri
Well Chris, then Manchester United aren't guaranteed that Champions League seat. As we've had a conversation on. I know they're going to be playing Real sociedad in the round of 16 second leg. That's potentially their route into Champions League. But you've got all these big plans and no European football. I mean, I'm just saying it's going to be really difficult for Manchester United to be getting Champions League football regularly and getting that windfall from it whilst the Premier League is this competitive.
- [35:26]
Mike Finnoya
Yeah. And that's looked the history of the last 10 years of United's history, right. Ever since Sir Alex Ferguson had not been consistently within that qualifying for the Champions League, they haven't been able to rely on those revenues. It's meant that there's been patchy periods within their finances and it's meant that, you know, they. Well, they've managed to skirt around the edges and avoid the worst effects of that, really. There was famously, the Adidas deal that they had. If they spent two consecutive years outside the Champions League, that would be cut by, I think it was 30. They re signed the Adidas deal recently so that they actually, it now cost them 10 million if they miss one season. Now, that didn't apply this season because the clause only kicks in from 20, 25, 26. But look, if they go out against Real Sociedad on Thursday night, then they're going to have to pay essentially a 10 million penalty in that Adidas contract, because there's no way they're qualifying for the Champions League through the league position now. So the historic underachievement, if you like, is starting to bite. It's starting to at least come up on the horizon. I think with the new way that the new Champions League format, with the league phase, those revenues have only shot up that are available to clubs through the broadcasting money, for the TV money that they get. United have been outside of that this season. They could be outside of it next season. Even if they qualified and they went out in the league phase, they could expect, we were writing about this last week, they could expect guaranteed some of around 50 to 60 million euros. Even if they crash out of the league phase, if they win the Europa League this year, they'll get about 42 million euros altogether. So it just goes to show that actually success in the Europa League is not as worthy, is not as financially important as even just qualifying for the Champions League. You need to be in the Champions League and the competitiveness of the Premier League, it's really harmed United. And what they need to do is build themselves back to a level where they. Whereby they are qualifying for the Champions League regularly. That that's been the aim for, you know, throughout all the summers where they spent all this money, where they've continued spending, like a club that plays in the Champions League has been to become a club that does play in the Champions League, but they've failed to do it. It's really tough because now we're talking about, like I said before, we're talking about new Stadiums. We're talking about winning the 21st league title by 2028, which will be the 150th anniversary. There's all these grand. You're laughing, Ayo. No, no, no.
- [37:48]
IO Akimwaleri
I'm sort of grimacing, actually. It's more of a grimace.
- [37:49]
Mike Finnoya
I understand why.
- [37:51]
IO Akimwaleri
I think they're massive ambitions. Massive ambitions when what we're seeing on the field isn't that great at this moment in time.
- [37:57]
Mike Finnoya
Yeah. Look, essentially their first priority, I think, needs to be to dig themselves out of the hole that they're currently in, in terms of the squad, in terms of competing at a sustainable level for a period of time where they can build back and build gradually. Nothing about what we've heard over the last few days has been about building gradually. And I think that sets quite a high bar for Ratcliffe and the INEOS hierarchy, if you like to try and clear.
- [38:22]
Matt Slater
Critch has reminded me of a really important part of the Arsenal story. So this is a. We're going to hear various comparisons, spurs and even Everton and blah, blah, blah. Lots of everyone's building stuff. Right. But the point I was going to make about Arsenal is it is often sort of said that the move really hurt them and they kind of. Their competitiveness dipped. I don't need to. You know, you're you. You know, you're a fan, aren't you?
- [38:49]
IO Akimwaleri
You don't have to remind me, mate. It's fine.
- [38:51]
Matt Slater
So this is the narrative, isn't it? And I think there was an element of that, because you went from a period of winning a few in a row and then not winning so many, but you were still competitive. And the thing about Wenger, his, if you like, genius or certainly his achievement, in many ways it was as much as the Invincibles. It was as much as the titles as the fact. Well, how many years was it? Sort of like 15, 16 years of champions League qualification. It was an incredible run and it was knockout stages. You didn't win only one final, but you were incredibly consistent of getting through the group stages in those constrained years where the bill did get a bit complicated. Arsenal had a good plan. They had London property to sell, they had Highbury to sell. It was 2008, credit crunch again. Interest rates went up. Things got a bit hairy for a while, but they got it done. They've got a great stadium. Their matchday revenues are higher than United's now, despite having 10,000, whatever it is, 15,000 seats, fewer seats to sell. That's because they've got more premium seats to Sell. And because Londoners are willing to pay more, frankly, there's more tourists, but also just Londoners. You can charge them more. So that part of the Arsenal story is really important to remember how they did it. They did it by consistently qualifying for the Champions League.
- [40:11]
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- [40:12]
Matt Slater
Now, I would argue that it was a little bit easier back then. You know, man, City hadn't really. Well, they hadn't. They hadn't arrived, did they not. Not the time of this. Of the stadium build. Yes, they were. They were coming up on the rails in the later years, but it was still an achievement. It was still an achievement. Real issue. I'm not. I'm not diminishing it, but I just. Things have got much more complicated now because there certainly wasn't an Aston Villa, there certainly wasn't a Nottingham Forest. There certainly weren't, you know, the strength of the sort of middle class in the Premier League. So I just think that's, again, timing, history, if you like, not helping Manchester United. And I think it does go to what Critch is saying. They absolutely have to get better at football for any of this to make sense.
- [40:56]
IO Akimwaleri
Yeah. Well, Chris, I do want to ask you, really, just before we end this, really, and what happens next, really, we've talked about potential jobs coming to Manchester United and that Old Trafford area. We talk about the stadium bill, we talk about local redevelopment and regeneration, and we've also spoken about what's happening on the pitch now. Obviously, stuff financially will be hampered on the pitch. I'm just thinking Reuben Amarim, if he is the man to carry this team into that new era of stadium build, just how hard it's going to be for him, how much. How. How tied his hands will be moving forward in terms of being able to really flex his might as a coach.
- [41:34]
Mike Finnoya
Yeah, look, I think it speaks to the points that we've raised already about how the fact that United have other priorities at the moment that they need to address, which is, you know, first and fundamentally building a squad for the manager that plays a completely different system to the one that they got rid of in the middle of the season. Right. I mean, that, that if you. If we're talking about football success being fundamental to the club's performance, which, to be fair, not only Ratcliffe but Amarin has said since day one, they've both been in the building. They've said fundamentally, the reason for these cost cutting, the reason for these job cuts, for all the turmoil around the club, is because the team hasn't been playing well enough. That has to be the priority, and that is going to take investment. Even though, as Sir Jim Radcliffe mentioned this week, United are still paying money for players who they've already got in the building, and in some cases players who are playing for different clubs. They're playing Jadon Sancho's wages and he plays for Chelsea. They're still going to be paying Jadon Sancho's transfer fee this summer, even though he's placed for Chelsea and may well move and join Chelsea permanently. There is a legacy of, I guess you could call it failure, it's certainly underachievement, you could probably call it mismanagement as well, that United are still needing to address at the same time, as I'm saying, digging themselves out of the hole that they're currently in. You throw a stadium on top of that that you want to build within five years, it sounds. I don't know if Fantasyland is a bit too strong, but it sounds unrealistic. And I think what we might see is that ultimately a remind. Reminder that the priority and the fundamental basis for United's success is the football.
- [43:13]
Matt Slater
I completely agree. I think we all agree, right? I think we should just end on a slightly rosier note. Maybe I should because I've moaned too much. I'm a big believer in stretch targets. This is a stretch target, all right. Let's just say it costs two and a half, three billion. Let's just say it takes seven or eight years, not five. And let's just say they don't have the big top. They have a really cool stadium that, I don't know, it's still amazing, but just doesn't have the trident, isn't 200 meters and isn't. Doesn't rival the Eiffel Tower to be one of the wonders of the modern world. Let's just say they have a really good stadium and we get it. You know, I don't know, while I'm still working as a journalist, that'd be pretty good. You know, it's still Manchester United, not my team, but they are still Manchester United. How many pieces have we written about this stuff already? How many podcasts? You know, all the papers, you know, they're never ignored, right? And if they get this done, not only is it good for them, you know, I'd begrudgingly say it's good for the Premier League, it's good for English football, and I would absolutely say I think it's probably good for Manchester. I am all in favor of doing less in this country about London and the Southeast. So this is a good thing I have no problem if this is going to be Sir Jim Radcliffe's farewell. I'm 72. I've spent 30, 40 years building a company that you lot have never heard about until I started dabbling in sport. But I'm going to do this thing before, before I shuffle off. All right? I. Good luck to him, good luck and good luck to my United fans.
- [45:00]
IO Akimwaleri
I'll tell you what, what a legacy that will be. Maybe make sure you send me a comment about the cones as well. Hopefully we'll get them moved for you.
- [45:05]
Matt Slater
I don't think. I don't think the cones are his fault. I just want to stress. I'm not blaming. I'm not. I'm not blaming. I think someone's left them there. They've forgotten the work they're doing.
- [45:18]
Mike Finnoya
Should we just go and pick them up? Should we just. Do you want to go for a drive, Matt? We're not far away.
- [45:23]
Matt Slater
You're gonna be there for a long time, I reckon. There's about five, five, there's about 5,000. There's about two miles of road.
- [45:32]
IO Akimwaleri
I wish I'd have brought it up. All right, let's end it there. Critch. Matt, thank you so much for your time. Don't forget to rate and review the podcast. We're back tomorrow. Thanks for listening.
- [45:43]
Matt Slater
You been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavro and Jay Beal. The executive producer was Aiden Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an Athletic Media Company production.
- [46:06]
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- [46:44]
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- [47:12]
Matt Slater
JPMorgan Chase bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval.
- [47:16]
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- [47:25]
Matt Slater
Hey folks, it's Marc Maron from WTF. It's been more than 15 years now, and I'm still talking to all kinds of people in my garage every week. Sometimes it's Bill Burr, sometimes it's Ariana Grande. She just looks at me because she's always going like, dad, it's not that big a deal. Yeah, I go, sorry, I lost my temper. I go, I still love you. You know, Daddy has issues.
- [47:46]
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- [47:47]
Matt Slater
Of death?
- [47:48]
Mike Finnoya
Well, I don't know.
- [47:49]
Matt Slater
I think about it all the time.
- [47:50]
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- [47:52]
Matt Slater
Listen to WTF with Marc Maron twice a week on your favorite podcast app. Or get more WTF with a WTF plus subscription. Just go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus.
- [48:07]
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Mike Finnoya
Acast.
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Matt Slater
Com.