Inside Liverpool's 15 year journey from civil war to superclub

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Athletic FC Podcast

Episode: Inside Liverpool's 15 Year Journey from Civil War to Superclub
Date: October 13, 2025
Host: Ayo Akimolere
Guests: Matt Slater, Simon Hughes, Dr. Ian Graham, Peter Moore (former Liverpool CEO)

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Episode Overview

This episode marks the 15th anniversary of Fenway Sports Group (FSG) owning Liverpool Football Club, highlighting the club's transformation from instability and underperformance to becoming a modern football "superclub." The Athletic's team, with special guests and deep reporting, delve into FSG's stewardship, key decisions, the impact of Jurgen Klopp, infrastructure, data-driven recruitment, fan tensions, and Liverpool's global brand ascension—while reflecting on notable missteps along the way.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Liverpool in 2010: From Civil War to Calm

• Opening scenario: Liverpool in 2010 was riddled with conflict, underperforming on and off the pitch, and facing financial and organizational chaos following a succession of problematic owners.
  • “They inherited what can only be described as a, as a civil war situation between two owners that weren't really communicating… Liverpool both on and off the pitch were a total mess.”—Simon Hughes [06:05]
• FSG's approach was marked by cautious stewardship, a long-term vision, and respect for club history.

2. FSG’s US Sports Ownership Model and Transformation Strategy

• FSG brought experience from American sports, notably rebuilding storied franchises like the Boston Red Sox, applying the same principles to Liverpool:
  • Stadium development (main stand and Anfield Road), strict adherence to financial regulations, and strategic commercial expansion.
  • “You’ve got a group in FSG that is very familiar with running sports teams at the highest level… Building revenue, growing the revenue base and the stadium. Investment in the new main stand and more recently Anfield Road is exhibit A.”—Peter Moore [02:36]
• FSG adopted “the virtuous cycle”: win games → attract bigger sponsors → reinvest proceeds → acquire better players → win more.
  • “It was the virtuous cycle of football. Let's win games. Bigger sponsors will come in… We'll use that money to buy better players. Better players will win more games.”—Peter Moore [04:36]
• FSG's intent was to maintain and enhance Anfield, not relocate, solidifying the club’s identity and maximizing financial returns.
  • “He [John Henry] took on repurposing Anfield as he does with Fenway Park. You've got to get every dollar pound Euro out of that stadium. And that's what they have done.”—Peter Moore [04:26]
  • Fenway's approach to club stewardship was compared to other American owners, showing a nuanced, less profit-driven, and more respectful approach.

3. Anfield’s Evolution and Local Identity

• FSG's key choice was to redevelop Anfield rather than move, maintaining its character while boosting capacity and revenue.
  • “Do you know what, what we've got is so powerful as our brand. We have a famous old ground full of quirks... Let's stay here, let's make this better.”—Matt Slater [07:18]
• Anfield was described as “an active participant in Liverpool’s success”—notably entwined in club folklore and performance.
  • “Anfield became an active participant in Liverpool success. It's almost an identity in itself.”—Simon Hughes [09:36]

4. Missteps and Tensions with Fans

Notable Off-field Controversies:

• Trademarking “Liverpool” (2019):
  • FSG attempted to solidify intellectual property, but the move clashed with the city and fans’ culture—eventually rescinding after public backlash.
    • “The trademark thing was I think indicative of Liverpool and I'm a Liverpool and I totally get it. What we were trying to do is protect the football club... But yeah, that was something that we learned a lesson from.”—Peter Moore [14:50]
• Furloughing staff during COVID-19:
  • Decision—though technically sound—was out of tune with expectations of a club with community roots, resulting in negative publicity and a rapid climbdown.
• Raising ticket prices (2016/2019):
  • Efforts to push up prices triggered fan protests and walkouts, again reversed after acknowledgment of the cultural misstep.
  • “The ticket situation was just a farce really because the amount of money that Liverpool stood to earn from that was minimal. But the reputational damage was significant…”—Simon Hughes [18:39]
• European Super League & Project Big Picture:
  • Liverpool’s involvement in both controversial plans damaged trust. FSG subsequently adopted a quieter public stance, emphasizing consensus and stability after initial boldness.
    • “European Super League landed terribly. And I just sense that Liverpool have almost sort of come to decision. Let's not say anything right, let's just be good citizens.”—Matt Slater [23:39]

Underlying Issue:

• Persistent tension exists between local identity and Liverpool’s global “superclub” ambitions:
  • “Liverpool is a very delicate ecosystem… there was a significant reputational damage for Liverpool as a result of a decision that felt a bit gung ho.”—Simon Hughes [18:39]

5. Jurgen Klopp and the Club’s Culture Shift

• Klopp was the central figure in bridging on-field progress, fan unity, and organizational culture, and was considered the most important appointment of FSG’s tenure.
  • “Jurgen, an incredibly unique individual, one of the best man managers… If Jurgen wasn't football manager, he'd easily be a CEO of a Fortune 500 company.”—Peter Moore [25:39]
  • “People can respect a structure, but they won't be inspired by a structure. They get inspired by a person. And Jurgen Klopp was an inspiring figure.”—Simon Hughes [28:07]
• Klopp’s ability to align the club, squad, staff, fans, and owners under a shared vision was universally praised, with Klopp’s man-management and inspirational leadership seen as vital to the club’s resurgence.

6. Data Revolution and Recruitment: Dr. Ian Graham’s Insights

• FSG’s faith in data and evidence-driven decision making was transformative—expanding the scope and sophistication of transfers and performance management.
  • “Our owners, Fenway... believed in having evidence behind their decisions. Measuring a manager is much more difficult than measuring a player… all the evidence we had pointed in the right direction [for Klopp].”—Ian Graham [32:07]
• Early adoption of data and a Director of Football model faced skepticism, but FSG's patience and faith in process paid off.
  • “It was hard to read again and again about what a bunch of idiots we were. But from a professional point of view we knew the owners always supported us… they're in this for the long term.”—Ian Graham [35:38]
• Commitment to continual improvement and data expansion seen as essential given the pace of innovation and competition in modern football.

7. The Virtuous Circle: Success on and off the Pitch

• Consistent with FSG’s philosophy, sporting success reinforced commercial growth, infrastructure investment, and brand expansion, allowing Liverpool to compete at the top within PSR restrictions.
  • “There's so much evidence that they want to win… They haven't always invested, but when they go, they really go.” —Matt Slater [40:09]

8. Future Challenges and Speculation on Ownership

• Stadium expansion’s physical limits, increasing competition, and the next steps for FSG as founders age and private equity investors join were all highlighted as future inflection points.
  • “Football never stands still and the competition just increases all the time… who inherits the kingdom and whether they want to carry on with it.”—Simon Hughes [44:29]
  • “When I look at how they're running Liverpool, they appear to be in it for the long haul.”—Matt Slater [47:41]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Anfield's influence:
  "Anfield became an active participant in Liverpool success. It's almost an identity in itself."
  — Simon Hughes [09:36]

• On the “virtuous cycle”:
  “Let's win games. Bigger sponsors will come in, which they did. They'll pay us more money. We'll use that money to buy better players. Better players will win more games. It’s the virtuous cycle.”
  — Peter Moore [04:36]

• On learning from controversy:
  “The trademark thing was I think indicative of Liverpool… What we were trying to do is protect the football club… But yeah, that was something that we learned a lesson from.”
  — Peter Moore [14:50]

• On Klopp’s unique leadership:
  “Jurgen, an incredibly unique individual… he'd easily be a CEO of a Fortune 500 company.”
  — Peter Moore [25:39]

• On club evolution:
  “Year on year, yes, patience was required, but it's not like, dare I say, a Manchester United situation, where you can't see this pattern evolving.”
  — Simon Hughes [38:18]

• On FSG’s ownership style:
  “When I look at how they're running Liverpool, they appear to be in it for the long haul. They appear to sort of like no Boston Red Sox and Liverpool. We're going to hold on to those two.”
  — Matt Slater [47:41]

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Discussion | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------| | 02:11 | Introduction to FSG’s Liverpool takeover | | 03:38 | Peter Moore on FSG’s sports ownership philosophy | | 06:05 | Simon Hughes—Liverpool’s dire state in 2010 | | 07:18 | Stadium redevelopment, Anfield vs. relocation | | 14:50 | Peter Moore on controversies (trademark, furlough) | | 18:39 | Fan reaction and the club’s local/global balance | | 23:39 | Governance missteps—ESL & Project Big Picture | | 25:39 | Peter Moore on Jurgen Klopp’s impact | | 28:07 | Simon Hughes—Klopp as central inspirational figure | | 32:07 | Dr. Ian Graham—Data’s role at Liverpool | | 40:09 | Virtuous circle—revenue, spending, and results | | 44:29 | Future challenges—stadium, succession, competition | | 47:41 | FSG’s long-term plans and ownership strategy |

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Final Thoughts

This episode provided a nuanced, inside look at Liverpool’s transformation, crediting FSG’s businesslike yet respectful stewardship, bold data-driven recruitment, and the pivotal appointment of Jurgen Klopp for their rise. It candidly acknowledged missteps over the past 15 years and explored the ongoing challenges of balancing local tradition with global ambition. Liverpool’s journey under FSG is portrayed as a model of patient, incremental progress rooted in clear values, but one that faces constant new tests as football evolves.

For fans, the episode affirms that Liverpool’s resurgence is no accident but the product of deliberate, often difficult decisions in boardrooms and back offices—as well as the relentless demands and passion of supporters and the city itself.

Transcript

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Trickortreat to get 20% off your first order. That's 20% off your first order at Meundies.com TrickortREAT code TrickortREAT Meundies. Treat yourself the Athletic FC. Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimwalere. This week marks 15 years of FSG ownership at Liverpool. In that time they have won two Premier leagues and also a Champions League as well. So how did Liverpool become a modern super club? With us today we have Matt Slater. Matt, appreciate you joining us.

[Matt Slater]

Yeah, hi, how are you?

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, really, really good. We've also got Simon Hughes as well. And Simon, let's get straight to it. 15 years of FSG ownership at Anfield. It's been quite a journey, hasn't it?

[Simon Hughes]

Yeah, I can remember the day they took over. It came at the end of a very stressful period for the club and it's a very different club now. So I'm looking forward to the conversation.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, for sure. Well, also part of today's podcast, former Liverpool CEO Peter Moore has been talking to you, Matt, ahead of recording. So let's hear what he had to say on who Fenway Sports Group are and also what makes them so successful.

[Peter Moore]

Most people know John Henry, Tom Werner, Mike Gordon, who is my boss. But fsg, Fenway Sports Group is a broad group of local old Boston money, I'll call it Jimmy Iovine, LeBron James are minority owners within there. So you've got a group in FSG that is very familiar with running sports teams at the highest level. Boston Red Sox being the obvious, you think Liverpool were having a tough time. Boston Red Sox have not won the World Series in 84 years. When I joined in 2017, investment needed to be made in the stadium, investment needed to be made in the squad, all operating and this is very important to them in a way that operates within the parameters of whether it's the Premier League or UEFA, what was known as financial fair play now, now psr. And they were students of how to do that in very simple terms. Building revenue, growing the revenue base and the stadium. Investment in the new main stand and more recently Anfield Road is exhibit A in that a lot of what you.

[Matt Slater]

Said in your answer, I must admit I hear all the time about us sports owners, right? And there's so many of them in the Premier League, you know, Wes Edens and the Glazers and Todd Boehly, they all have successful franchises back in, back home that have won things. Not all of them, but most of them. But I just think there is something special about FSG because you're right, they have turned round two sleeping giants and they lent into their history and their local fan base, but at the same time had this. We've got to be bigger than our city, we've got to be bigger than Boston, we've got to be bigger than Liverpool. I just. Is there, is there something about the kind of the skill sets of the people in the group or are they just really good?

[Peter Moore]

One of the things that when I got there, that one of the challenges we had was look massively powerful football club that was underperforming, underachieving. Obviously we brought Jurgen in was the embracing of our local history. But we're a global football club. It may sound weird, that was a little bit of a problem at times with the local fan base. And so we developed and I came up with an expression, local heart, global pulse. That's who we are. So we embraced our global fan base and made sure we could figure out how to, and I hate to say this word, monetize the entire global fan base to engage them and also I think to the point when Hicks and Gillette owned the club, you know, there was a shovel going in the ground in Stanley park in 60 days or whatever it was to build a new stadium. And John Henry, when John and New England Sports Ventures as they were known then came in and John walked into Anfield as he did with Fenway park. And I remember this, I was living in Boston during that period and said, why would we ever want to move? He took on repurposing Anfield as he does with Fenway Park. You've got to get every dollar pound Euro out of that stadium. And that's what they have done. It was very simple. It was the virtuous cycle of football. Let's win games. Bigger sponsors will come in, which they did. They'll pay us more money. We'll use that money to buy better players. Better players will win more games. It's the virtuous cycle of football.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yes, Simon Peter has spoken a good game there. On how FSG, I guess have restored two huge clubs in Boston Red Sox 1 and obviously Liverpool Football Club as well. How big a task did you think they had on their hands when it took over the club in 2010?

[Simon Hughes]

Well, they inherited what can only be described as a, as a civil war situation between two owners that weren't really communicating with one one another certainly weren't working together. The fan base, I wouldn't say it was totally united against the owners because there was factions within the fan base as well. But Liverpool both on and off the pitch were a total mess. And if you just look at it, you know, objectively, the stadium is much smaller than it is now. Two of the sides have since been redeveloped. And then on the pitch, just looking back there after the first game, it was the Merseyside Derby against Everton. Liverpool were second to bottom in the league after eight games, which was even after eight games. That was a position that Liverpool weren't used to being in. So it was a very poor side that they inherited as well which, which required a lot of work. Liverpool realistically couldn't have been any further away from where they are now. Certainly in a sporting sense.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Well, Matt, unpitched success is super key but for owners, I guess their legacies lie more in the infrastructure and also guardianship of a club as well. Anfield is a good representation of this. Taking an iconic ground, keeping it soul but transforming it as well to maximize revenue potential.

[Matt Slater]

I think what they've done there is really, really impressive. The plan they alighted on the previous owners, Hicks And Gillette was to basically build a massive stadium in Stanley Park. Many people will be aware that Stanley park is this big expanse of Greenland that separates Liverpool and Everton. And they were going to basically build a US style spaceship stadium in Stanley Park. It just kind of looked like the Allianz in Bayern or you know, it looks very generic at the time and that was the plan. Now Hicks and Gillette blew up for unseen different reasons. The big economic crash in 2008 didn't help them. And as Simon has already said, there was basically a civil war ongoing and Liverpool were a mess on and off the pitch. I just think it's really, really interesting that Fenway Sports Group, there's a clue in the name. Fenway, the home of Boston Red Sox, the club they bought I think in 2003 or 4. Another old traditional sleeping giant of a club with a very famous ground, very famous Fenway Park. A bit small, very old fashioned, hemmed in, ripe for redevelopment, probably worth a lot more as housing. The same group of people came to the same decision in both cities. Do you know what, what we've got is so powerful as our brand. We have a famous old ground full of quirks. Fenway park is the quirkiest stadium in American sport. It's one of the smallest I think in baseball and yet it's buzzing. It is so Boston Red Sox, it's so Boston. It is a symbol of the city. And I think they just came to the same decision in Liverpool and Anfield, they looked at it and went, let's stay here, let's make this better. And all the reasons not to improve Anfield that previous owners had gone, oh, I can't do that. You know, we've got all these problems with the housing behind and the transport and the links and now it's a nightmare. They just got it done. And then the last thing I'll mention is, you know, just, just in terms of the money they've spent on capital, infrastructure, first thing they did was they rebought Melwood the old training ground. And then that enabled them then I think to do this move To Kirby, this £50 million, you know, so they massively upgraded their training ground. If it was just real estate we're talking about, it's an A, it's an A plus and it's very similar to what they've done in Boston. I just think it's really interesting they came to the same solution in both of their main sports franchises.

[Simon Hughes]

There's a famous story about when FSG bought the club or new England Sports Ventures as they were known at the very beginning of course, where John Henry, the principal owner, is walking around Anfield, I think, on his, pretty much his first visit as the owner. And you know, the lights are on, it's nighttime and he's looking around and he says, you know, how can we give up this place? Bear in mind it was empty at that point. I mean, I don't know how, how true that is, but it's a story that's gone around a fair few times. I do think that was probably the most important decision because as new owners, people are gonna watch for what changes and how they drive that change by staying at Anfield, that sense of familiarity was there. But I think the importance of Anfield, it cannot be overstated. I mean, I understand, you know, fans who get of other clubs who get tired of listening to the stories about the famous Knights and the atmosphere. Because sometimes the atmosphere at Anfield isn't great. It's sort of dependent on the occasion. But I do think that Anfield became an active participant in Liverpool success. It's almost an identity in itself. You know, that's because of the ways of Bill Shankley really. So I think had they given up that they would have lost an awful lot and in the rough times would have found it harder. But people still feel that sense of place when they go. It still feels like Anfield despite all the changes. Now, you know, 15 years later, the debate around FSG and their impact on Liverpool is significantly deep. I'd say lots of good things that they've done, they've managed the club responsibly. You know, I think they've been good custodians. They could have been a bit more adventurous at times, but I can understand why they haven't to some extent. But on the whole, as foreign owners, as a venture capitalist firm go, you only need to compare to where Liverpool are now to then to see that they have had some, if not a large positive impact.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Well, FSG haven't always got it right. We'll talk about that next.

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Like any major organization, FSG haven't always got things right. Whether it's wanting to raise ticket prices, trying to trade back Liverpool. But let's not also forget, try to help form the European Super League. Peter Moore was CEO during the trademark issue as well as when the club planned to furlough staff during the outbreak of COVID 19. Here he is on the challenges he faced at Liverpool.

[Peter Moore]

The trademark issue and furlough was on my watch and was very much situations that we thought we were doing the right thing and pretty quickly realized that the Liverpool fan base is somewhat unique in its volatility and its demands that you do things the way they want them to and rightly so. For me it was trademarking Liverpool in a football context. I was at the epicenter of that. I believed in it. We were losing a lot of money through counterfeit product as we were becoming more successful and our lawyers there at the club said we've got to get a grip on this because other clubs have managed successfully to trademark their city name or it's something that is a tool that you can as you're trying to grow your revenue. But in the end, after a lot of discussion and a lot of debate, the trademarks office here in the UK said look, Liverpool is too big a city and it's too well known on a, on an international level for you to have that control. We agreed with it and obviously stepped down. But the trademark thing was I think indicative of Liverpool and I'm a Liverpool and I totally get it. What we were trying to do is protect the football club from primarily offshore counterfeiters who were taking full advantage of merchandise that just put Liverpool and a football on there and off they went and taking full advantage of the brand that we had built. But yeah, that was something that we learned a lesson from. Furlough was interesting and it's interesting right now as the US government has furloughed every single employee. Being American, I totally understood furlough because it was something unfortunately that happened a lot, not a lot, but every few years the government couldn't get its budget right and so they furloughed their workers which meant don't work and we'll let you know when everything's fixed and come on back. And I must admit that was the way that I saw it. We had taken a advantage and I think that was the issue of government support to get us through this. We had 800 employees and two and a half thousand casual employees. We needed to take care of Them the club was willing to pay 80% of that and then take 20% from the federal support to, you know, the national support to, to make them whole for 100. But that did not go down well. And we were not the only other club. But I can tell you, Matt, that the other clubs put us out front and center, then duck for cover when they saw our hat.

[Matt Slater]

That's a fair comment. And as far as, you know, because there is concern not, not focused on Liverpool, but on the sort of bigger picture of American ownership in the Premier League. We're getting very close to 14 where, you know, two thirds. Majority. Yeah, two thirds. That there's going to be some moment where these people who have previously been very reasonable and said all the right things are suddenly going to go, yeah, we were kidding, right? It's the NFL tomorrow. Here we go.

[Peter Moore]

I think there's no embedded sleeper cells of a cohort of Americans that are going to emerge. I think they all understand now, they're now seasoned veterans. The Stan Kroenkes, the Todd Bowleys, the, the Glazers are all battered and bloodied in all different ways. And I think that they realize the power of the Premier League. I think they've been through too many battles and the continued growth of the Premier League on a global scale, you know, the bigger concerns are, you know, what do you do to further globalize? Is there a 39th game or something outside of the UK and I'm not sure that will happen anytime soon, but no, I think that everybody understands the world in which they now live and financially operate is a pretty solid world in relation to sports just about anywhere else.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yes, Simon Peter just discussed the trademark issue in 2019, which came after plans to raise ticket prices. I mean, you've spoken about that sort of slight jar between the locality and this major club in the middle of it. How problematic was that for local supporters?

[Simon Hughes]

Well, I think it eroded trust. You got to remember the context of the period as well. Liverpool had just won the Champions League and they'd been in positions like this before. So the ticket walkout in 2016 came just after they built the new main stands. And understandably, I guess, you know, the club wants to drive the revenues that it feels that it can. And the ticket situation was just a farce really because the amount of money that Liverpool stood to earn from that was minimal. But the reputational damage was significant and it set the conversation back with FSG quite a period of time. Time, I think obviously Liverpool had just won the Champions League again, so it Sort of felt like they were trying to sneak this decision through the back door when the guards were down and everybody was really happy. Now, yes, Liverpool have got to capitalize on the interest and the success. We get that. But you know, there's a real sense in Liverpool that Liverpool Football Club has played a huge part in the modern history of the city. But the city has a much, much deeper history than just Liverpool Football Club. You know, there has to be this coexistence and you know, there was certainly a sense locally that people felt like, well, Liverpool can't dec who uses this, you know, the name of the city. Surely they shouldn't be able to monopolize that. Now I sense that Liverpool felt, well, you know, we're one of the biggest employees of the city. We're one of the. We are the, you know, arguably the biggest multinational company in the city. You know, we should be able to benefit primarily from our own branding but it's a big economic driver. I understand that. But as I say, Liverpool has an identity in itself which the club benefits from as well. Liverpool is a very delicate ecosystem and it only takes something. This was quite significant, but it doesn't take very much to upset the balance. And it was one of those occasions which did upset the balance and there was a significant reputational damage for Liverpool as a result of a decision that felt a bit gung ho. I think they totally misjudged the mood and sort of the attention spans of curious fans who are watching absolutely everything the club is trying to do.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, I mean this is sometimes the danger of ownership that comes from beyond Matt. And I'm just thinking about the Glazers at Manchester United, the Kronkies at Arsenal. What do you make of sort of some of those cultural tensions we see especially with some of these American owners.

[Matt Slater]

I don't want to pick on American artists too much because loads of Brits get it wrong. Yeah, I wouldn't really have a job if that was otherwise. It's a fair point to make though that it can be quite hard to manage any business tomorrow. It is if you haven't got boots on the ground. If you don't really understand your audience, don't really understand your customers, don't really understand the culture of the place you work. I think if I'm looking at Fenway and Liverpool, there've been mistakes, there've been missteps for sure. When they have made mistakes, they've tended to correct them quite quickly and sort of there has been kind of public mea culpas I mean the European Super League 1 is one. I really remember where John W Henry sort of did that strange slightly hostage style video, but he was one of the few that did one. You know, there's been a few other bits and bobs. I remember there was an early one, wasn't there Simon around ticket pricing? Was it the 77 pound ticket that they quickly reversed that. That was a, you know, again, a very American thing to do. Hey, we're selling out. What's the first thing you do? Raise the prices? No, that's not going to really kind of work here in the uk. It's a bit more complicated than back home but they, they worked it out and I do know that I think things have got easier and better for them because some of their bright young things in the company have come to live and work in Liverpool and that is where things have got better. It hasn't been managed from 3,000 miles away, you know. And of course there are comparisons you can make. I mean the obvious one, the Glazers are always going to come up in any conversation about this, right? And it's very pertinent with Liverpool because Manchester United, Liverpool are always compared. I think Hicks and Gillette is probably even a better comparison because they were the predecessors to Fenway Sports Group and we saw what they did with Liverpool. Started off making all the right noises. Didn't last long for it to unravel. Okay, I've already mentioned about the external shock of the 2008 financial crash, but things were going wrong for those two before that and would have gone wrong anyway because they were just a strange partnership. You mentioned Arsenal. I don't think I really want to pick on the cronkies on that one because the main stick you hit with him is two really. It's silent Stan. He doesn't communicate enough. Well, I can think of loads of British, Chinese, French, whatever, Greek owners that don't communicate. Maybe not the Greeks, but you know what I mean. Loads of owners from lots of other countries don't communicate very well with their fan base and not winning enough. Well, winning stuff's hard and Arsenal have been pretty close. They're pretty good. It's sort of three, four years now of being there or thereabouts. Is that all the Kroenkey's fault? I don't know. I mean, I'm not an Arsenal fan. Ayo, that's. I'll leave that to you. I just think Fenway Sports Group compared to their predecessor and compared to the Glazers night and day yeah, super quickly.

[Ayo Akimolere]

The question you asked Peter on the wider US influence on the future of the Premier League got me sort of thinking a little bit. You know, perhaps FSG's most high profile era you sort of mentioned is around the European Super League. What impacts do you think those kind of errors they've made have had on their involvement over the governance of football?

[Matt Slater]

That's a really good question. And I've often thought about this because Liverpool are very, very significant players, right, not just in the UK and England but beyond. You know, they were, if you go back to the formation of the Premier League, they were drivers. That was a big five then Liverpool, Everton, I think Arsenal, spurs and United. Those are the ones, the movers and shakers and they've always been one of our biggest brands. United, Liverpool, Arsenal and then we flow from there. So they're very, very important. The one that's often forgotten about is Project Big Picture. I don't want to confuse people with the past too much but that was the idea around kind of restructuring English football. It wasn't about European Super League, it was very much about English football. It was invol a sort of redistribution idea. There was some more controversial bits around political power for, you know, the big six possibly letting themselves some of their own rights. Controversial but it was a really all encompassing plan and there were bits of it that people liked. It was the sort of overall package. And then not long after that they then get involved in the big European Super League breakaway. So there were Liverpool very much taking a seat around the big table and being key drivers. Neither of them landed well. European Super League landed terribly. And I just sense that Liverpool have almost sort of come to decision. Let's not say anything right, let's just be good citizens. They've always backed financial fair play at the IFA level. They very much back PSR and they're going to back squad cost and they like financial controls. They are capitalists. They don't like losing money. We kind of like the status quo, we kind of like the direction of travel. Let's just be gentle, let's bring everyone with us. I just don't see them being radical on anything.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Whilst there's been an aspect of learning on the job, a key element to FSG success was the appointment of Jurgen Klopp for the final time. Here's Peter Moore on the importance of the German who won the Premier League and also took the club to two Champions League finals during Moore's time in charge.

[Peter Moore]

From the perspective of being the CEO, we, we went To Kiev, disappointment there. But you could just sense we were ready to go back again next year to Madrid and we're successful there. So, yes, and I saw and I attended every single game during my tenure there. And so I saw the clop effect, if you will, firsthand of embracing, you know, what Liverpool Football Club was all about, you know, directing that in the right way. The fans, the stadium, the squad, the ownership group, the staff, and making sure we all understood what the North Star was, which was not only to get back as Premier League Champions or to be our first Premier League Championship, but also to get back as what we call in Liverpool, European royalty and ultimately get back on our perch, as has been famously talked about. And I think that all of that happened by a very clear focus and support of Fenway Sports Group, Mike Gordon in particular with Jurgen, tremendous relationship, understanding the business and the emotion. Jurgen, an incredibly unique individual, one of the best man managers. And I often talk about this in my business life of if Jurgen wasn't football manager, he'd easily be a CEO of a Fortune 500 company. Where the skill sets that he had of leading, understanding the end goal, motivating, challenging the employees, getting the best out of everybody in business, same as in football. And that's what Jurgen had. And so I think fsg, when it clearly wasn't working with Brendan Rodgers, knew that they needed to find a manager that could embrace and corral everything that was good and great about Liverpool Football Club, march it in the direction of that, what we call biggie as that European trophy, and build a squad and a backbone through an organizational structure of Michael Edwards, his recruiting staff, Billy Hogan doing brilliantly as Chief Commercial Officer and get us all marching in the same direction towards success. And that we did. And then, as we famously would say, we were champions of everything and everywhere in that season, where it was Premier League, it was Champions League, it was FIFA, Club World cup, and those were heady times, Matt, and hopefully be soon repeated.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Peter is quick to give credit to the whole structure, Simon, but can we give Jurgen Klopp some flowers, please? Because has Jurgen Klopp been the single most important hire in their tenure in terms of bringing the whole club, the fans, together?

[Simon Hughes]

Yeah, well, just feeding off what Matt said there. When the owners aren't present, as FSG aren't, you know, they're based in Massachusetts, they do rely on their appointments on the ground. And no appointment is more important than the position of manager, particularly at Liverpool, a club where the managerial position is revered. It inherits all sorts of responsibilities and not just related to football. You know, there's a social responsibility, it's a civic responsibility really. Your manager of Liverpool. So getting Jurgen Klopp as manager. People can respect a structure, but they won't be inspired by a structure. They get inspired by a person. And Jurgen Klopp was an inspiring figure. You know, as soon as he came in, I just remember everybody was talking about Liverpool differently straight away. Yes, you know, he's required patience over quite a long period of time, relatively. But I think that the really great thing that Klopp did was every season in the build up to Liverpool becoming, you know, what they became from sort of 2019 onwards, he made the last game of the season matter. So, you know, there was always something hanging off the last game of the season, whether it was a cup final or qualification for a Champions League or, you know, another Champions League final, you know, so I could understand why there was quite a lot of noise externally about is he going to get it right? But he made it exciting again, you know, for, for a lot of people. So I think, yes, the structure was obviously really good and supportive of Klopp as well. I think it's important to stress that because as that structure dismantled, I think it weakened Klopp's position, you know, later on. But yeah, I think Liverpool is a football club where certainly the fan base responds to pretty strong leadership from the manager. He was the figure that Liverpool needed when he came in, I think.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Well, next we'll be joined by a man who helped transform Liverpool in the transfer market. Don't raise your voice to prove you're right. Focus your mind with every word of.

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You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimolere.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Well, joining us now, it's an absolute pleasure to welcome Luke, Liverpool's former Director of Research, Dr. Ian Graham, who joined in 2012 and then left in 2023. Ian, so good to have you with us. Look, your work was mainly within the recruitment team at Liverpool. But before we focus on transfers, let's get into how important data was in decision making, in particular, even in the appointment of someone, as Simon mentioned, like Jurgen Klopp.

[Ian Graham]

Yeah, our owners, Fenway. I say our owners. I'm still a fan of the club. Liverpool's owners, Fenway. They believed in having evidence behind their decisions. Measuring a manager is much more difficult than measuring a player or measuring a team. But we did our best with the data we had at the time to measure Jurgen and it was a reasonably easy thing to say that he's a great coach, you think he'll be great for. Liverpool has so many things going in his favour. Not just the success at Dortmund. They were kind of a challenger club as Liverpool were at the time financially. Couldn't compete with Bayern Munich in the same way that Liverpool couldn't compete at the time with City or Manchester United. And then importantly, you know, we had the youngest squad in the Premier League. He had experience, you know, won the Bundesliga with the youngest squad in the league. Then they got even younger and he won it again style of football. We thought our squad was really well suited to Jurgen's style of play as well. So data can never say this manager is going to succeed at this club or this manager is going to fail at this club, but all the evidence we had pointed in the right direction. Certainly the only piece of worrying evidence was how bad Dortmund were in that final season under Jurgen. But I did a piece of work to show they had like the second and luckiest season in a decade of Bundesliga. He's undervalued. It's crazy to think he was undervalued at the time, but there was this question mark about him. I'd been working part time for Tottenham Hotspur since 2007. That's where I met Damian Camole and Michael Edwards I think the company I worked for was the only one seriously doing data analysis. So companies like Opta, they kind of report aggregate statistics but they weren't doing anything predictive, they weren't doing any sort of mathematical modeling to try and understand how the game worked or how you could value a player. One of Fenway's first moves was to bring in Damien Cavoli as Director of football. You know, a huge amount of change had to happen at Liverpool. I was on there with many funds to help make that change happen. Damien tried to bring my company in back in 2010 to work for Liverpool on the data side but that was impossible. So finally I joined in 2012 and yeah, the mandate was do what we did in baseball which was, you know, baseball already had the idea of the Oakland A's, a small budget club using data to overperform. They just applied that to a big budget club and the idea was the same in football, much less proven in football. The data quality wasn't really good enough at the time to really tell you how good players were but it sort of allowed you to vastly expand your horizons for scouting. It gave you a benchmark, it gave you some evidence for and against signing different players which no other club was using at the time.

[Simon Hughes]

I think we now talk about data like it's almost always been there, which has been, you know, involved in football for a long time but particularly at Liverpool, a football club where, you know, the cult of the manager existed through Bill Shankley, you know, had a really strong scout, traditional scouting network that the sort of operators in a very simplified way. I remember when the noise around the club started to change and FSG wanted to sort of introduce data, there was a lot of skepticism, you know, I would say amongst the, certainly amongst the fan base. I just wondered how, you know, you guys responded to that. Really?

[Ian Graham]

Yeah, I think like forget data, just think about higher, nothing Thailand data but think about higher level things like director of football. It just can't work in England. We heard that many, many times. When Damian left Spurs, everyone said, you see, it can't work in English football. When he left Liverpool, as more money came into the sport, clubs needed to get bigger and more professional. Back in the days of Shankly and Paisley, the football club was of a size that you could control everything because it was a couple of sign ins a year. The squad was small, you had the doctor and the chief scout and the director, the board and that was probably it. They're sort of multi hundreds of million pound revenue businesses now with sophisticated owners who demand to see, you know, what the process that has gone into making these decisions was. So using data to help that is just part of that growing pains of professionalization. Data was certainly one of the things it was easy to criticise about the football world becoming more professional. So I joined the club like a few weeks before Brendan Rogers became manager and part of our professionalization was we're going to have a director of football. And Brendan certainly pushed back against that. You know, it was, it seems silly looking at it 15 years later, but at the time it was absolutely what everyone did. And I can imagine, you know, if you'd asked other managers would you work under a director of football, they'd all say no. And so that, that was difficult. And we had what we hoped was like a young forward thinking coach who was much more of the sort of old guard of coach. That made it more difficult internally in terms of fans and like the outside view, I wouldn't say it wasn't difficult. It was hard to read again and again about what a bunch of idiots we were. But from a professional point of view we knew the owners always supported us. So no matter how bad things were on the pitch, they see the process. I always sound really lucky to work for Liverpool because most owners don't have that long term view, don't have that faith. They don't take the evidence and the process into account. They're just as bad as fans are and will make a change based on a few bad results or a few bad pieces in the press. After the first couple of disasters in the early years, we got some evidence from the owners. They're in this for the long term. They believe in what we're doing. For the long term.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, I mean that long term, Simon, 10 years before a wait for a Premier League title, I mean that patience, that commitment surely has to be said that it bears some fruit.

[Simon Hughes]

I think back to 2014. Obviously that that's two years in after Ian's started his job. You know, Liverpool nearly won the league that year. You know they're very close to winning it. Just very small margins stopped them from winning it. I understand sort of the conversation around, around Brendan and sort of why he fell on his sword in the end. But it did take time to deliver the success. But you could see year on year evidentially that the team was getting better. It just was. He had 2014, they nearly won the league. Okay. That summer there was a massive overhaul of one significant player leaving the club in Luis Suarez and a tranche of signings, some of which didn't work out, which then obviously the manager left Jurgen Klopp comes in 2016, they get to the Europa League final, they play in the League cup final as well. I mean, I wonder whether Jurgen Klopp would. He must look back at that and think as one of his biggest achievements in terms of inheriting the team partway through a season and getting them into a position where they could have won two trophies. OK'd didn't, but you could see the team have got better than 2017 again in the Champions League. 2018, they get to the Champions League final. 2019, they win it. 2020, they win the league. So year on year, yes, patience was required, but it's not like, dare I say, a Manchester United situation, where you can't see this pattern evolving. So, yes, patience was required, but there was a pattern to Liverpool's developments which was identifiable, which allowed that patience to sort of hold, really.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Ian, I'm going to talk about where Liverpool go from here in just a second, but before that, let's sort of circle. Matt, earlier we heard from Peter Moore who mentioned the phrase the virtuous circle. How much did last summer in particular represent the completion of FSG's principles? You look at yet another Premier League title, revenues are up. Then being able to spend record amounts in the transfer window. Whilst also, Matt, sticking to PSR limits.

[Matt Slater]

Yeah, I'm not sure it's a completion. I think they've been pretty honest and consistent about what they're trying to do for some time. And like I said, it's the same in the us they want. And if they were the owners of my club, that's really what I want to hear. And there's so much evidence that they want to win.

[Peter Moore]

Right.

[Matt Slater]

So there's the obvious stuff you see in the summer or January, particularly the summer, though, because they're smart, they know that's the better window to buy in. They invest. They haven't always invested, but when they go, they really go. I've already talked about the massive investments they've made in terms of capital infrastructure. So the stadium, the training ground, you know, they're going kind of world class. World class. They do loads of stuff. And I know this is all the boring bits, the commercial team, the digital strategy, everything about Liverpool just looks professional, like the branding. Simon's probably rolling his eyes. I can't see here because he's in a little small screen. But this sort of stuff matters because it enables the club to put money on the pitch, which is what they did this summer. And to come to your point about the virtuous cycle stroke circle. Yeah. Winning matters. If you believe in ffp, if you believe in PSR and they do, you have to boost your revenues, you have to win more prize money, go further in the Champions League, ideally make something like the Club World cup and another one. I think they took a slightly bold counterintuitive move when they went with Nike as their shirt deal. They took less money up front and their deal was incentivized. That says to me we're backing ourselves, we think we're going to be good, we're going to win and we're going to sell more shirts and we're going to get a bigger payment on units sold. So we don't want the big upfront payment that to me projects confidence.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Okay, Ian, before you go, I'm just wondering what the future holds for FSG at Liverpool. And I think from a data standpoint as well, I'm really fascinated as we're looking at data being more omnipresent in most football teams. And I know you've got your own consultants and you work with other people as well. I mean, how hard is it to stay ahead of the game right now, especially for a club like Liverpool?

[Ian Graham]

Yeah, it's hard. I started as a one person data team at Liverpool and then hired two more people in our first sort of few weeks there. We didn't have any office space at Melwood, so we were in the boardroom and got kicked out of the boardroom every time there was a meeting. So that's the level of professionalism I walked into in 2012 when I left the data team was seven people. I think they've hired more. I think it's maybe 10 or more than 10 now. Jurgen arriving was the trigger for that really because he'll say he's not a data specialist but he understands what knowing everything that's possible to know can bring. And data as a way to just increase the amount of knowledge you have. So he was the driving force behind us starting to work for the fitness department, start to work with the video department, with the coaches and so on. The new staff at the club have been brought on to do that sort of thing, work with the women's team, work with the academy, which we only did on a part time basis when I was there. So when it was my team of seven, I'm sure now we've Will Spearman's team of 10. The problem is there's always too many things to do. So as soon as if you're a data person, you turn up in a club, as soon as you've built something useful then all of your time's spent maintaining it, having meetings, explaining, interpreting what it is you've built, whether it's for helping with transfers or fitness or whatever. And so a lot of the development work, you know, what is the state of the art, what's the next phase of tracking models? How can we use the sort of, of more detailed data that's now coming online where you can see which direction players are looking, if they're making a kick in action and so on. So even at the biggest clubs there's plenty of work to do and it's hard because you've got the week to week grind of two games a week. It's hard to spend time on those longer term projects. So that's what I'm betting my consultancy on is that we've got time to spend on this, learning this stuff that if you work at a club you're frankly too busy to be bothered with.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Fantastic. Appreciate you joining us Ian. And before you guys go, Simon, what does the future look like for fsg? Everyone else is bossing their ranks, everyone else is stepping up. The Premier League title was fantastic last season but you need to keep that momentum going.

[Simon Hughes]

Well football never stands still and the competition just increases all the time. So yes, you know, Liverpool have won two league titles in the last five years but the challenge of staying at the top isn't going to get any easier. We sort of speak about Anfield now as it's a sort of a complete projects but you know, a club with the interest of Liverpool I think could be commanding bigger attendances than even the capacity that Anfield has now. So how they deal with that is going to be interesting to follow because two of the stands have been redeveloped as we know, the main stand in the Anfield Road. Can anything be done with the cop? I'm not sure you know because it's on what is quite a busy road. You've got the Kennedy stand on the other side where there's very little space. So I think I remember when John Henry came in he said that, you know, the COP was so impressive and it's like it's the smallest stand now really, you know, in terms of the height. So there's something there. I think it's going to be really interesting to see how they deal with that but it's whether they want to hang around for that as well. You know the guys at fsg, John Henry, Tom Werner and Mike Gordon. Certainly the first two aren't getting any younger. So it's who inherits the kingdom and whether they want to carry on with it. I'm not saying that I've heard otherwise, but they did ultimately put the club up for sale not so long ago. But I think since then Liverpool's potential is, has been realised a little bit more and probably made them appreciate that, well, maybe we can increase the value of this club even further. So I still think that there's a lot to achieve there for them but so other people are going to be patient for it Again. We talk about patience a lot earlier on the podcast.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Patience, Matt, patience. Do Liverpool fans have patience but also marrying that kind of like locality and dare I say it, the word super club.

[Matt Slater]

The thing that intrigues me is what is Fenway Sports Group? They're often talked about as private equity guys and I think they are individually. But is that what Fenway Sports Group is? Because if it is, you normally hold onto your assets for sort of five to 10 years. It's not permanent, right? You grow them, you make them run better, then you sell them. And yet if you look at the owners, the traditional owners of North America sports franchises, they don't sell, they hold on, they sell bits and that's how they realize their money. But you know, it's a generational event to sell an NFL team, to sell, you know, a Major League baseball team in a Fenway Sports Group. The guys, they came together 20 odd years ago to buy the Boston Red Sox, they bought some nascar, they bought, you know, they did all the normal things. They bought a little local media empire and they've invested some money in golf and then they bought Liverpool and they're holding on, they've sold bits of Fenway so they invited Redbird Capital in. I think in 2021 they again a little bit under the radar. When the Glazers did their strategic alternative, I put my United up for sale. Liverpool did it in a kind of more subtle way and then we found out they'd sold a slither and then we're sort of told no, that's it, we're happy, we're going to sit tight and that's what it looks like. And yet they bought the Pittsburgh Penguins National Hockey league team in 2021. Good purchase. I think it was about $650 million. They're going to sell them for a big profit. I think they're going to double their money. Now that has proven that they do sometimes behave like private equity. They do sometimes buy things, wait for the assets to appreciate and sell it.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Why?

[Matt Slater]

Why have they chosen to do that with Pittsburgh? I don't know, but when I look at how they're running Liverpool, they appear to be in it for the long haul. They appear to sort of like no Boston Red Sox and Liverpool. We're going to hold on to those two.

[Ayo Akimolere]

All right gents, let's leave it there. Appreciate your time. Matt, Ian, who joined us earlier, and also Simon as well. And also thank you guys for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.

[Simon Hughes]

You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast.

[Matt Slater]

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