Ayo Akinmolere (4:22)

Yeah, Phil Bournemouth get this coach and you know, top coach in Spain. A lot of Spanish teams would love him. But then again, I mean, do you turn down the lure of coaching in the Premier League?

Dermot Corrigan (4:32)

Well, I think that was the question when Bournemouth made him his offer and he'd had other offers previously. I was covering Leeds at the time when Leeds were desperate to get him on the back of sacking Jesse Marsch and for various reasons, the biggest one being the fact that he was mid season with Rayo Vallecano and didn't particularly want to walk out on them by activating his recoil clause. They didn't get him and they were relegated. I suppose from the outside Bournemouth didn't look like the sexiest option, but there is a bit of a new wave in the Premier League at the moment and I'd kind of include Nottingham Forest in that. Irrespective of their past history. If you look at the top 12, you've got palace, you've got Brentford, you've got Fulham, Brighton, Bournemouth Forest as well, and even Villa and Newcastle have had to re establish themselves. So I think that tells you, and it tells the coach in fraternity that clubs can be meaningful players in the Premier League without having the biggest budgets or the most prestige. And there is no league anywhere that gives you more exposure. I'm sure Aureola will have realized that. Plus it pays incredibly well. But he seemed to take his time to decide what to do after Rayo and I think he was pretty savvy in realizing that the club had a ceiling and they'd basically hit it in his last season there. And I'm not sure another year with them would have done him any good particularly or his reputation necessarily any good. And the great thing about Bournemouth was they were a totally blank canvas. You know, there was the risk of relegation, but I think it probably tells you that Areola isn't a risk averse guy and they've absolutely followed his lead in trying to create a squad that actually ticks his boxes. To use another example, something that Manchester United seem to be absolutely terrible at. And you know, I just think him thriving there will properly pique the interest of other emerging coaches in Europe.

Ayo Akinmolere (6:11)

John, you know, I'm going to talk to Dermot about this sort of Basque connection because obviously we look at Arteta Emery, Xabi Alonso as well being quite prominent coaches in their respective leagues. But you know, is there an idea that there is this sort of tactical Basque style that you're seeing emerging with those coaches, but also, I guess, you know, Iriola is also a disciple of Bielsa, if you think about his time at Bilbao.

John McKenzie (6:34)

Yeah, I think that's the interesting thing because I think most coaches from a tactical point of view, you can trace their genealogy not geographically, but by the coaches that they've worked under. I think the coaches that you've named have all got very, very different tactical styles. In fact, you could spread them probably across the spectrum from the sort of more high possession controlling coaches on the one side with coaches like Alonso and Arteta, as you've named Emery, somewhere in the middle maybe, and then I think Iraola on the other side of the spectrum entirely. And as you mentioned that that is probably one of genealogy, the coaches that they've worked on down. Even with Arteta, it's like the interesting confluence of both Pep Guardiola on the one side, who he sort of comes through in the coaching side of things, but also David Moyes when he was. When he was there at Everton as well. And I think that's influenced the way that, the way that he plays. So, yeah, I think with Iriola definitely you can trace that, that Bielsen influence, intensity out of possession, finding upside in the out of possession side of the game, but also having these really nicely constructed, I would say, counter attacking moves where the ball goes from end to end really quickly. You can see the influence of Bielsa there.

Dermot Corrigan (7:44)

Jon, do you remember Motherball at Leeds?

John McKenzie (7:46)

I do.

Dermot Corrigan (7:46)

Ball that was spoken about so often. So for those who don't know, and it's a very sort of famous training drill that Bielsa has, but it's a kind of wild 11 on 11 game where the ball is in play constantly. There are no fells given. Everybody piles in and runs themselves to a standstill. And I wrote about it about three or four years ago and I got in touch with Raola because he experienced it at Athletic Bilbao and he was joking that it was the night before was always when he had an extra bowl of rice because it was going to be so difficult. But what it was really, because at the time he was coaching in the Spanish lower league. So what I was interested to know was, do you try to replicate it? You know, have you tried to copy that? And his answer was basically no chance. I think there were two reasons for that. One is that I don't think you can put a routine like motherball and keep them on side long term unless you've got a bit of a Bielsa like aura. But I think he was also saying, you know, there might be a bits of Bielsa in me, but I have got my own, my own mind. I do do my own thing, I've got my own ideas. And he just strikes me as a guy with a very, very intelligent streak.

Ayo Akinmolere (8:47)

Yeah. Is there a connection there? We talk about intelligence. I know he's tried to be a lawyer before he became a professional footballer. Dermot. But you know, These. These Bass coaches seeking pastures anew. You know, we talk about him going to America, obviously coached in Cyprus, but EM has spoken about traveling and trying to enrich that knowledge base. Is that something we see as a similarity between him, Xabi, Alonso, Arteta, Emery, and of course, now we're talking Areola as well.

Phil Hay (9:13)

Yeah, I went to San Sebastian. Wasn't the only football rider to go to San Sebastian to try and find out what is the magic in the water up there. Aiola played for Antiguoco with Arteta and Alonso, the same Basque youth team. And everybody up there is basically like, no, it's not. As John is saying, it's not a style of football. They all play different styles and they all have their own strengths and weaknesses and influences from, you know, other managers that they've played under. What Aola did is he moved very quickly from San Sebastian, where he grew up, to Atari Bilbao, the rival club along the coast. And one of the things at Bilbao is they do have a very sad identity. They only use players who were born in the Basque country. And that means that the coach has to adapt himself to the players that he has. It's not that they can go and sign whoever they want. And it also means that the individual is not as important as the collective up there. They have a very strong plan where they all have to work for each other, they all have to back each other up. And the coach becomes very important in that situation that he's able to come up with a plan that suits the players that he has. Ernesto Valverde, who's the current Athletic Bilbao coach, who was at Barcelona as well, was a huge influence on Earl in that they're very similar characters as well. They're understated, they are very clever, don't particularly like dealing with the media, maybe, but, you know, do what they have to do. And you can see that in the different clubs that Irol was at, especially in Spain, where it wasn't that he was going out at Rayo and saying, you know, I need a new centre forward because, you know, there's no way we can play. He wasn't saying, this is my system, we have to play this way. He looked at what he had, did a huge amount of work on the training ground to install automatons into the team. So everybody knew where they had to be at a certain time. If the ball goes here, you have to be here. When I make this pass, you make that run. And it just became second nature to players who played hugely above, you know, anything that they had played previously in their careers and pulled off those amazing results. Like beating Madrid at home, like beating Barcelona, like beating Barcelona three out of four games and drawing the other one only conceding one goal. Something like that. Like, incredible results for Irola. But it became. It almost became like not that much of a surprise.

Ayo Akinmolere (11:16)

Yeah, John, I just think, you know, I mean, it's all going well right now. The narrative might change next season or towards the end of the season for sure. But, you know, I do wonder if that sort of foundation of what he did at Valcarno in terms of not being able to work with much actually works really well with what he's doing at Bournemouth right now. You know, they've got a whole heap of injuries as well, let's not forget. But also he's managing to transmit those ideas to a group of players and getting the best out of them right now.

John McKenzie (11:44)

Yeah, good coaches coach good, I think. And that's always what you have to take into account when you're assessing how good a manager is, because often I think the context of into which players are fitted can sometimes suit. And you can see players improve because of the context that they're in. But I think what you can also see with Iriola is that there's definitely an individual focus to his training. There's so many players who've come through, even in his short time at Bournemouth so far, who've improved because of the coaching that he's done. So I'm thinking Dom Solanke is a classic example of this. Before, you know, before last season, I don't think anyone really would have considered Solanke as a starting forward for Spurs. And I think this season, even with spurs problems, it's clear that Solanke has taken to that task really well. But there's plenty of other players in that team as well who I think just flourished under him. Even taking someone like Ryan Christie, dropping him a little bit deeper, using him as the sort of beating heart of his control room in that team. But even like peripheral players like David Brooks, for example, who's been brought in this season because of injury issues, a player that I didn't really expect to see a huge amount from in the context, but actually, even just seeing him play regularly, you can see the influence that he's had that Iriola's had on these various players. So I think that the fact that there's players like Milos Kirkes being touted as potential signings for clubs like Liverpool, all of this comes back to Iraola. He's not only improved the team from a collective structural point of view, but I think also individually you can see the signs of his handiwork as well.

Ayo Akinmolere (13:15)

Okay, thanks for that. I want to go more into that in the second part of this podcast, but I know, Dermot, you've got to go. So thank you so much for your time, brother.

Phil Hay (13:22)

Cheers, guys.

John McKenzie (13:25)

You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akimolere. I use the New York Times Games app every single day. I love playing connections with connections.

Dermot Corrigan (13:36)

I need to twist my brain to.

Jack (13:38)

See the different categories.

John McKenzie (13:39)

I think I know this connection. Look, Bath is a city in England, Sandwich is a city in England, Reading is a city in England, and I'm gonna guess Derby is a city in England. I started Wordle 194 days ago and.

Factor (13:50)

I haven't missed a day.

Ayo Akinmolere (13:51)

The New York Times Games app has.

John McKenzie (13:53)

All the games right there. I absolutely love spelling bee. I always have to get genius.

Ayo Akinmolere (13:59)

I've seen you yell at it and.

John McKenzie (14:01)

Say that should be a word.

Jack (14:03)

Totally should be a word.

John McKenzie (14:04)

Sudogu is kind of my version of.

Ayo Akinmolere (14:06)

Lifting heavy weights at the gym.

Jack (14:07)

At this point I'm probably more consistent with doing the crossword than brushing my teeth.

John McKenzie (14:11)

When I can finish a hard puzzle without pins, I feel like the smartest person in the world.

Ayo Akinmolere (14:16)

When I have to look up a clue to help me, I'm learning something new.

Factor (14:20)

It gives me joy every single day.

John McKenzie (14:22)

Start playing in the New York Times Games app.

Ayo Akinmolere (14:25)

You can Download it@nytimes.com GamesApp.

Phil Hay (14:33)

Sometimes you.

John McKenzie (14:34)

Have to attack direct, make them defend one against one.

Phil Hay (14:36)

I think we have good threats outside.

John McKenzie (14:38)

With Brooksie with Antoine, Justin Dango and we wanted to make them feel this threat. It's a fault for Evan Nilsson. The Vitarity Stadium in Ruts AFC Boardman screwed it up again against the champions SEO. It's rifled into the net from corner.

Dermot Corrigan (15:01)

And it's rushed in by Chris.

John McKenzie (15:05)

A brilliantly worked set piece routine that completely caught Arsenal off guard. It's Justin Kver for the hattick. What a day for Justin Kver.

Dermot Corrigan (15:17)

And what a day to still hungry for more.

John McKenzie (15:19)

Oh, the cherry on top of the.

Dermot Corrigan (15:21)

Cake for the cherries.

John McKenzie (15:24)

There's not many teams come to St. James park and completely dominate in the final third.

Ayo Akinmolere (15:32)

Yeah, some of Bournemouth highlights this season. I think we should actually delve more into what Iriola is doing at Bournemouth in particular now. You know that win over Newcastle extended their club record and beaten run in the top flight to 10. I guess one of the most impressive things About Iriola is how he's bounced back from, I guess, the awful start he had at Bournemouth. Just three points from their first nine league matches. Phil, it's pretty impressive how he turned that around, but also I think just the faith that Bournemouth had that, you know what, let's stick with this guy and let's see what he can actually do.

Dermot Corrigan (16:03)

That feels like it never happened, that period. It feels so long ago now that you can't remember the point where everybody was saying bad decision this. And not only, not only kudos to Bournemouth for sticking with him through that, but you'll remember when Gary O'Neill was was replaced by Areola, there was something that it fel typically British. To me, actually, this thing of Gary O'Neill is a good man who's done a good job and this isn't what we do around here. You know, he deserves a bit more courtesy and a bit more respect. But Bournemouth stuck to the guns in a big way with that and they went for Iriola and it's worked incredibly well and I think part of the reason it has worked well is because of that Dreadfulwood synergy which they do actually have. A lot of clubs talk about it, but a lot don't really have it. Whereas Bournemouth seemed to have totally aligned Iriola and his attitude towards tactics and the way they're going to play and what they're doing in the recruitment market. They seem incredibly good at ticking the boxes that he wants them to tick time and time again. John's done great analysis of Bournemouth right from the start with Iriola and the further you go down the borough, the more you kind of see it as science rather than, you know, there's no bluff involved in this. It's as if Iriola knows exactly what it is that he wants to do. He knows exactly how it should work. Isn't going to work all the time. You know, it's not like the high press is 100% perfect, but I was joking in the newsletter saying, you know, when it does work, it's like an Alcatraz that Sean Connery couldn't get out of. I love the speed of their attacking play, I love the width and I didn't half like the comment on Twitter X over the weekend, which was kind of asking, is Justin Kluiver the first son of an iconic footballer who's actually been any good?

Ayo Akinmolere (17:39)

Yeah, yeah, good point. Actually, really good point. I want to go to Justin Kluiver in just a second. But yeah, tactically, Jon, as Phil's Just said, I mean, this is a well drilled side, a very well coached side.

John McKenzie (17:49)

Yeah, I think the phrase that I love to use talking about Iriola is this concept of outlier advantage. And what I mean by that is that I think the majority of teams in the Premier League are trying to do something similar to one another, which is control games. They want to control the game with the ball, they want to build up, they want to have sustainable possession, they want to be able to create goals in a sustainable way. They also want to control games when they don't have the ball as well. So they have now these intricate pressing approaches which can force teams to go into certain areas to make it easier for them, etc. To stop them from scoring. And I think what Iraola is doing is he's taking that concept that teams want to control games and he's sort of flipping it on its head and he's saying, well, fine, we're going to stop you from being able to control games. And they do that in a number of different ways, both in and out of possession. I think the out of possession side of things is the one that people have really latched onto because, you know, it is a really intense press, it is a really suffocating press and is a really productive press as well. So it's easy to see why they might do that. But generally what they're doing is they're trying to increase the tempo, reduce the amount of time that teams have on the ball and as a result make it harder for them to control games in that way. But I think also you see that in their in possession play as well, because not only are they looking to, when they win the ball back, to attack directly and make the most of teams being destabilised because they've lost the ball in a situation that isn't advantageous to them, but also when they're building from the back, you can often see them just going super direct, going directly into their front line, looking to win second balls, looking to stop the opponent from being able to get into a comfortable in possession shape which they can build from. So this is all about this outlier advantage. It's about changing the game state that most teams are used to being in and being better prepared to deal with the chaos when it unfolds. And I think as we've seen, that's really come out quite nicely in the Premier League where all teams are generally looking for that control. Bournemouth have found a way to destabilize that and it's working out well for Them.

Ayo Akinmolere (19:41)

Yeah, I mean, I just want to have that conversation now then, should we move it forward? Is Kluivert's son the best, one of. One of the greats ever to play in the Premier League that's actually any good? Because actually the irony of Justin Klivert scored against Newcastle is that his dad actually played for Newcastle as well. But he's come good. Second hat trick of the season, but he's actually looking like a talisman in this team.

John McKenzie (20:03)

Yeah, incredible. And I think with that hat trick against Newcastle, he scored more goals at St. James's park than his dad or something like that. So one of those. One of those fun facts.

Dermot Corrigan (20:12)

That good one for Christmas.

John McKenzie (20:14)

Yeah, exactly. But yeah, he's a great example of a player who came in and I thought, you know, to talk about synergy. As Phil was saying, you know, this is a club which has plans. They're trying to find advantages in the market. And one of those advantages I think is bringing in players who maybe have been hyped around Europe and maybe haven't done quite so well. Kluivert is one of those and he came in and I was sort of on the fence about whether or not it would work out, but absolutely been a success story at Bournemouth. I think that the play style suits him really well and the level of coaching that they have. Dermot, before talking about the players knowing how they need to respond when they turn the ball over so that they can repeatedly and sustainably generate really nice chances out of that. He's a real beneficiary of that approach and yeah, looks like scoring almost every week at the moment. And yeah, it's been a real joy watching him play, but I think there's plenty of other players out there who've. Who've really benefited from this as well. We talked, I think the really important players, I mean, people are going to talk about Semeno, Antoine Semeno, who has one of those really nice fairy tale stories of having played at lots of different levels across the English pyramid. But to an extent, I think, you know, the trajectory that he's had, I just sort of expected him to do okay. I think there's other players who are more interesting from that point of view. Players like Ryan Christie I mentioned before, Lewis Cook in the midfield, again like a player with a lot of pedigree. But now in this system he has a real sort of, I think a real sort of edge and identity in this system. Those two are super important because so much of the press that Aureola uses is about those central midfielders interpreting the way that the play is going and having to cover a number of different options and being able to make the decision in the moment which is the most dangerous marking responsibility for them and taking those up without players like that. And I think now with Tyler Adams coming in that midfield makes the press functional or not. The reason why it took them 10 games to get going is because they didn't have that level of functionality in the press and so teams were just breaking through them. Now they have that because of the intelligence of those players in the middle, the creativity of those players to be able to press well, win the ball back and then recycle it in dangerous ways. I think really, really important too. And just a couple of words for some of the defenders as well because Bournemouth's numbers in terms of the defensive side of things, really impressive given their pressing is so aggressive. Often when teams press so aggressively. I mean we had Erik Ten Hag at Manchester United last season with his teams just completely wide open when their press didn't succeed. Bournemouth are really good at not only jumping into those high pressing man to man moments, but dropping deep into more zonal structured blocks which are harder to break down. I think a big part of that is to do with the cent center backs. Marco Snesi is injured at the moment, but him and Zabanyi last season, I mean Ilya Zabani not often talked about in Premier League conversations. He played every minute last season, he's played every minute this season. I'm pretty sure I'm correct in saying that if not it's, you know, a few minutes either way ever present and just a stalwart in that defense. Dean Hoisen coming through now centre back that was brought in from Serie A has been thrown in at the deep end because. Because Senesi is injured and he's just been fantastic as well. These players are absolutely fundamental to the play style as well. And yeah, I think often, I think Hoisen is obviously being talked about, but I think Zabanyi often goes under the radar a little bit and even Kirk has obviously another one of those hyped players. But on the other side, Adam Smith, you know, a journeyman career right at the end of his time in football as a player, but he's been absolutely fundamental as well. And you know they've brought in a few different options to play that right back position and it's always ended up coming back to Adam Smith as well. So yeah, get some, some really important performances from players and again I think that speaks to how well this team has been coached by Areola.

Ayo Akinmolere (23:53)

Don't know about you Phil but I think John does like the old Bournemouth, doesn't he? I've never seen him so I don't in my life.

Dermot Corrigan (23:58)

Look at him.

Ayo Akinmolere (24:01)

Practical knowledge.

Dermot Corrigan (24:01)

Brilliant.

Ayo Akinmolere (24:03)

But look, I mean I think something we spoke about this week already has been spurs and how they've coped with their injury issues. Phil. But you know we look at Bournemouth here. You look at injuries to the likes of Senesi Tavernier, Sinistera, Eva Nielsen who they got from Porto and Azunal as well. I mean they've had their injury issues as well. But he's managed even with this intensity of play to cope with those injuries.

Dermot Corrigan (24:27)

Absolutely. And you know therein lies one of the problems for Postecoglou. The timing at the weekend was. Was almost as bad as it could have possibly been for him. Because he goes to Everton, you know, seriously down on numbers. And spurs get rinsed really badly at Goodison Park. Forget about the scoreline. You know it was a. It was a real mess for most of that game. Bot must go to Newcastle. And don't forget that Newcastle were the divisions formed team with the divisions form striker and Esac with exactly the same excuse. But have absolutely no need to play that card or to try and play that card because they turn up and play so well. And you know I would rank Newcastle's midfield amongst one of the best in the Premier League. And Bournemouth's performance against it was the thing that stood out for me. I mean Clyvert obviously took the headlines with the hat trick but the way in which they were able to control that game and get a foothold in it was. Was so impressive. And again it comes down to the fact that they clearly understand the Raiola's tactics and they're clicking incredibly, incredibly well. I think it's safe to say that if the injuries carry on as badly as they've been for Bournemouth and they're probably going to take effect at some point. It's almost inevitable because fatigue catches up with players. You don't have the same ability to rotate and there's not a lot you can do. But he seems like a very humble guy. Does the zero. And I just can't imagine him trying to play the injury card at all. It's just not his style.

John McKenzie (25:45)

If I could just jump in. I think what's really interesting about the difference between spurs and Bournemouth is that.

Ayo Akinmolere (25:49)

That was my question to you because I thought it's really interesting. We've had a lot of feedback on it on YouTube and Spurs fans are saying, why are you comparing us to Bournemouth? And I'm interested in your feedback on that, actually.

John McKenzie (25:59)

Yeah, well, I think with spurs, the system that Postecoglou's implemented is reliant on technical skill and superiority. Right. So they've lost the two centre backs who are fundamental to the build up and the defensive aspects of that team. They play really aggressively positionally, so that those two centre backs are often the only two in the first line of build up, which means they're obviously the only two left in the last line of defence. And that means that you require really, really technically superior players to be able to do that. When spurs don't have Van de Ven and Romero playing, the system doesn't work. Whereas I think the beauty of Bournemouth's approach is because it isn't out of possession, first approach as I'd call it. They're thinking predominantly what can we do without the ball? Because we're going to as a team that isn't going to have the ball a lot, we're going to be more often than not without it. So let's make sure we're good at that side of things. I think it's much easier to then port players in off the bench to still be able to perform at the same sort of level. A system doesn't fall to pieces and I think obviously that still requires a huge amount of coaching expertise to be able to make sure that you're maintaining a whole squad of players who can play the system. But I think it also gives a really nice buffer to Iraola if he loses a player. Yeah, look, it's not great when you lose Ennis Unal and Evan Nielsen, your two strikers, but the system itself can still cope with that. And you know, I think Bournemouth would have been better if they'd had a striker profile in that nine slot other than Dango Watara. He's played really well there. But you know, if they'd had that strike, it would have changed things. But the system is still able to cope with those losses of players all around the pitch in a way that I don't think spurs system can.

Ayo Akinmolere (27:26)

Now let's talk about the recruitment field very quickly and you know, a big part of their success as we've spoken about a whole heap of players, the players that they've brought into the club. Obviously they sold Dominic Salah Yankee to Spurs as we're talking about spurs and were able to reinvest Ivan Nielsen and also on Hoisen as well, who's behind it. Obviously, Richard Hughes went to Liverpool who would have been in charge of player recruitment. But who is now in charge or who's driving it forward from now, Phil?

Dermot Corrigan (27:50)

Well, they've got Simon Francis. I mean, John will know a lot more about the recruitment structure down there than me, but they've got Simon Francis, who I think must have benefited from learning on the job with Richard Hughes. I mean, they've only had two seasons. I think I'm right in saying outside of the Premier League in the past decade or so. So it'd be wrong to say that they're just finally getting it together now. What I do think is that, and you know, this seems fairly obvious, that the whole project just has so much more purpose now than it did when they were in the Premier League first time round and perhaps that's inevitable. They've also got Thiago Pinto, who gives them, you know, more serious structure, but more of the sort of structure that you'd expect of an established Premier League club. And they evidently have a kind of laser vision when it comes to finding what it is that Iriola wants in the market. On top of that, you mentioned Solanke. They seem pretty good to me at spreading the money around. When it does come in, I mean, Kliver is, you know, was what, about £10 million? I mean, I'm not being funny, but that's what they're talking about. Sheffield United paying for Ben Brerett and Diaz if they go up this season. And, you know, I think I know who I'd rather take for the cash. So when you sort of ally that with Iriola's now, so you can totally see why it's working and that basically is how clubs flourish, that it's all joined up. The thinking makes sense and in the end they do the right things when they have to. I guess the real test for bottomless football operations staff is this who is on the list for when Iriola goes because much more of this. And it's inevitable, isn't it, that someone's going to try and buy him out of there and he must think he can go right to the top.

Ayo Akinmolere (29:19)

Yeah. Do you think they are thinking of the future without Iriola? John, obviously, he's made such a mark. It is the main season where we've really seen what he's been able to do with this, with this team. But, you know, the Premier League, every team would love a good manager to steer him in the right direct.

John McKenzie (29:34)

Yeah, I mean, we started off the show by saying Bournemouth had Gary O'Neill before they had Areola. He kept them up that season and then they moved him on. That is the sign of a club with a plan. So, yeah, they will absolutely have a shortlist of a long list and a short list and no doubt they're all over the concept that Iriola is going to be hot property. I mean, has been hot property, no doubt, but it's going to be hot property going into the next few windows. So they'll definitely have a plan and it will definitely be a good one, I'm sure. This is the Athletic FC podcast with I.O. acamolera.

Justin Kluivert (30:19)

You know, at the beginning of the season, I'm an ambitious person. You know, we got a lot of ambitious players in the team. The Bournemouth did a great job recruiting, like, those kind of players that have a lot of ambition and I think you see that in how we speak about, yeah, we want to play Europe. We want to be the best that we can, and I think we show that also. So, yeah, why not? Why not dream big and let's see where we can end up.

Ayo Akinmolere (30:39)

When you say Europe, do you mean the Champions League?

Justin Kluivert (30:41)

You never know. Europe, yeah, let's. Let's keep it on Europe. But the Champions League, you know, we got. They got a great, great teams in the Premier League, so that would be very tough. But, yeah, who knows? Yeah, who knows?

Ayo Akinmolere (30:50)

That was the weekend's hat trick hero, Justin Kleiver, who is daring to dream about Europe. John, this is the big question. Can they sustain it enough to be playing European football next season?

John McKenzie (31:02)

Yeah, I mean, it's a really crazy season in many respects. It's very hard to judge what is what. I think, you know, the decline in Manchester City has sort of thrown everyone out. It's hard to judge what level everyone's at. And then obviously, on top of that, you've got spurs and Manchester United looking like they're out of the question. So I definitely think a few slots have opened up in that European trench right at the top of the table. Yeah. On the balance of things, if you'd asked me a couple of weeks ago when those injuries came in, I'd have said, oh, you know, maybe, maybe not. Having seen that they've been able to perform with a largely rotated squad, it seems much more likely that that could come through. And it would be great to see them, I think, making. Making it in Europe. I think it'd be the first time that Bournemouth have played in Europe.

Dermot Corrigan (31:40)

They don't have a stadium made for it, do they?

Ayo Akinmolere (31:42)

Yeah. Well, I mean, this is the whole thing really. I mean, this is ambition, Phil. This is potentially. I don't know if it was in the plans of Bournemouth to be in this position, but I mean, this is the dream of making it to the Premier League, that you've built some sort of an infrastructure that allows you to climb up to the top the table and actually potentially bring that dream to a club that potentially has never had it before.

Dermot Corrigan (32:03)

Yeah, I'm being facetious about the ground. I've been there loads of times and actually it's really like actually nice, comfortable little ground to go to. They're sort of damned if they do and damned if they don't because it's always how much more commercial revenue you can get from a bigger stadium. It does good things for you financially in that sense. But what the catchment area actually is around there in terms of fans who would pay for season tickets and pay to come and how many new fans they, they, they could attract as the years go on, despite how well they're doing, is, is probably very much moot and open to debate. But you know, they are on to a really good thing here and I, I personally reckon that Iriola will be really cautious and thoughtful about what he, he does next. I mean, as an example, would he have taken the job at Old Trafford at the point where Amarim did? I just don't think he would have done. I think he would have seen too many pitfalls and too many issues there, not to mention a squad that, I mean is 100% not made all. So I would imagine that everybody at Bournemouth is fairly sensible in thinking this is not going to be forever, because it can't be forever. But I reckon Iriola knows he's onto a good thing there as well. It's doing him no harm at all. His reputation is shooting up and he's built a very, very good, credible Premier League team.

Ayo Akinmolere (33:14)

Yeah. John, do you see Iriola becoming one of the next big coaches? It's obviously hard to say right now, but are there ingredients enough in there where you're like, actually there could be a really interesting future for this guy if he goes to a bigger club.

John McKenzie (33:29)

Yeah. This is an interesting topic, I think, because I mentioned before when we were talking about the tactics, that what Iraola relies on is this outlier advantage that he gets whereby he tries to destabilise what oppositions are doing. Now. That's a perfectly adequate approach to take in a league where you're probably a mid table squad and you want to Try and find these advantages. And it works because a lot of the time, as we've said, you're going to be without the ball, you're going to be maybe in losing or drawing game states. The problem is when you get into these winning game states, when you're ahead in games, suddenly the idea of control becomes much more palatable. You want to control games, you want to make sure that you have more of the ball and the opponents can't do things to you to make you lose your lead. And actually this is something that we've seen throughout Iraola's time at Bournemouth in the Premier League. They've often lost winning positions, they've dropped out of those winning positions because they've struggled to control those games. Now, if you throw a manager like that into an elite clock, suddenly that changes the dynamics entirely, right? Because not only are you expected to be in control games more, you're also expected to be in winning game states way more. And I think because of that you're going to end up with a loss of that outlier advantage. Suddenly you have to become, I guess, sort of mainstream. This is the big question with what happens when you give him those better players so that his teams can possess the ball better? Because the more you possess the ball, the more you lose your upside as an out of possession team, generally speaking. And we've seen the lesson from Arsenal this season has been they' of an elite team who've lent into the out of possession things and it's a problem eventually for you. So I think that's the big question with Iriola. How would he make if he makes that step up to coaching elite sides? How does he negotiate that change from being an outlier to becoming one of the mainstream coaches? And that's why I think a stepping stone club may be like a move to spurs so that he can. You're on the way to that elite level.

Ayo Akinmolere (35:16)

Don't get tongue swagging. Not now, not now, John.

John McKenzie (35:20)

But I think that's what needs to happen, right? I think Jurgen Klopp had his Dortmund spell and that allowed him to make a lot of that evolution from one style to another that prepared him for Liverpool. And I think that's the same sort of thing that Iriola needs.

Dermot Corrigan (35:32)

McKenzie Cole, spurs stepping stone club. Love it. Just on the back of what you said there, who in the elite bracket, the absolute top draw bracket in Europe, is then doing what Iriola is doing? Where is this working at a club that you would consider to be pretty close to the Top of the tree.

John McKenzie (35:53)

Do you mean like a team that's doing the sort of out of possession first high intensity stuff?

Dermot Corrigan (35:57)

Absolutely, yeah. Where would you find similar tactics to Areolas that are working at a club that would be a considerably higher level than Bournemouth?

John McKenzie (36:04)

Yeah, I think that's a really perceptive question because I don't think there are many teams out there who are even just sort of leaning into the chaos. I think there's a couple of teams in Spain who are doing that. So I think Villarreal are doing it a little bit it at the moment and they're doing fairly well in La Liga, all things considered. But beyond that, like most other teams I think are certainly in terms of the out of possession approach, I think there's been a real shift towards either dropping back into mid blocks because teams are now so used to opponents jumping into these high man to man pressing phases, that opponents have found ways of going beyond those presses and causing problems there. You could argue that you see that even happening with City to a degree. But then the other thing that started happening weirdly is that other opponents are going just straight into full man to man approaches. So Vincent Kompany in Bayern, partly because when you go man to man in out of possession phases, everything just becomes a one to one duel. Right. And Phil, you watched Bielsa's leads. That can work really well when the talent differential isn't massive. But when you're a team like Bayern, those one to one duels are all going to end up in your favour because you're going to have better players in every position. So there's some teams I think, who are really leaning into, into the man to man approach as well. So yeah, in terms of what Iriola is doing, there's not a huge amount, I think of examples of coaches who are doing that at the top level. And I think because of what we were talking about, making games more chaotic is just not a way of consistently winning enough to win leagues. It may work well in knockout competitions, but again, do you really want to bring in a playstyle which is. It reminds me of the Jurgen Klopp quote about Dortmund when they, when he was there playing against Bayern and what he said is what we do so well is we bring them down to our level. And I think that's what Bournemouth do so well. They bring other teams at the top of the table down to their level because they change the the game state. The issue becomes when you are the team that needs to, you know, maintain that higher level, it becomes A big problem. So I think that's why we're seeing less of those sorts of teams at the top level.

Ayo Akinmolere (38:02)

Well, let's, let's wrap this up quickly on anyone else out there other than Iriola that we are seeing, John, or where you're looking at that potentially could be in that sort of bracket for next big coach or next big super coach.

John McKenzie (38:16)

I've already mentioned Vincent Kompany. I don't know if he counts as like an up and coming coach because like when you're at Bayern Munich for half a season and it's going well, I think you've probably made that step up. But I think he's the, the one who's maybe gone under the radar a little bit because I think what, what Bayern are doing this season is just utter dominance. They're dominating in a way that, you know, even Pep Guardiola teams haven't done at Man City or Bayern before him and they're doing it in interesting ways both in and out of possession. So I think that if there is going to be a new wave of super coaches that we start talking about, it will be Vincent Kompany. I think Arteta is probably still within that bracket as well. I know that's probably not a fashionable thing to say right now, but what you've got with Arteta is again, a coach has come through and he's changed the meta in many respects and I think for years to come, no doubt Vincent Kompany will eventually end up back in England and I'm sure that they will become the Klopp and Guardiola of the next generation. So, yeah, I don't know if those are too mainstream. I mean, you wanted a sort of really, don't worry, it's really fun of a coming.

Ayo Akinmolere (39:22)

It's all good, it's all good. Let's end it there. Gents, I really appreciate your time. Phil Derma earlier as well, and also John, for all your insight. We'll be back tomorrow.

Jack (39:32)

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