The Athletic FC Podcast: Is a 64-team World Cup Inevitable?
Date: September 25, 2025
Host: Ayo Akinwolere
Guests: Adam Crafton, Phil Hay, Felipe Cardenas
Episode Overview
This episode tackles rumors and political maneuvering around FIFA’s potential move to expand the 2030 World Cup from a planned 48 countries to a record-breaking 64 team tournament. With exclusive reporting and insight, Athletic journalists unpack who stands to benefit, where the pressure is coming from — especially from South America — the hurdles of infrastructure and scheduling, and what it means for the future of football's biggest event.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
The Genesis of the 64-Team Proposal
[02:12] Adam Crafton explains the origins:
- The proposal first surfaced at a FIFA Council meeting in March when Uruguay's representative suggested marking the World Cup centenary with an expanded 64-team tournament.
- The 2030 edition is already an anomaly: hosted across three continents (Africa, Europe, South America) and six countries (Morocco, Spain, Portugal, Paraguay, Argentina, Uruguay).
- South America, especially Uruguay, feels sidelined — hosting just one match per nation to commemorate the World Cup’s 100th anniversary, sparking “a fudge compromise.”
Quote:
"This all sounds mad as I'm saying it... They’ve been encouraging FIFA to think differently about this." – Adam Crafton [03:08]
Political Pressure and Motivations
[05:36] Phil Hay on FIFA and the money behind expansion:
- Commercial incentives drive expansion — more teams mean more matches, more TV rights, and higher overall revenue for FIFA.
- With expansion, the World Cup becomes less prestigious: "It's not far off being easier to qualify than not."
Quote:
"When you boil this down, money's at the center of it. He’d never guessed." – Phil Hay [07:26]
South America’s Angle [13:39]:
- As Felipe Cardenas notes: It’s about legacy and ego. Celebrating 100 years with three solitary matches feels insufficient.
- Infrastructure and return-on-investment loom large for countries hosting so few games.
- South Americans want “an entire group to stay for over two weeks” and multiple matches for legacy and economic reasons.
Quote:
"This is being billed as a big idea... what are we celebrating if not the 100 year anniversary?" – Felipe Cardenas [14:03]
Pushback and Concerns
[08:12]:
- UEFA President Aleksander Čeferin and CONCACAF’s Victor Montagliani oppose further expansion, pointing to diluted qualification and overlong tournaments.
- Many see expansion as a one-way road: once a format grows, it never shrinks back.
Quote:
"Once it’s happened once, it'll be hard to get it back in the bottle." – Adam Crafton [09:37]
- Concerns about player workload (FIFPro) and declining competitive jeopardy.
- TV rights value questioned: Will a bloated tournament still attract the same money?
- Infrastructure issues: Most nations lack the 48+ “five-star training bases” FIFA now expects.
Humor and skepticism: "Maybe this could all be one big plot to finally get Scotland in." – Adam Crafton [10:47]
The Infantino Factor and FIFA Politics
- Gianni Infantino shown as open to “all ideas,” careful to broadcast FIFA’s duty to listen to stakeholders.
- South American football presidents and politicians orchestrate strong public backing, creating momentum difficult for FIFA to ignore ([11:39]).
Infantino’s presence:
"From today onwards, we work together to create something truly memorable that people will never forget." – Gianni Infantino (reported by Adam Crafton, paraphrased) [11:13]
Infrastructure, Geopolitics, and World Cup Rotation
- Expanded tournaments require greater infrastructure, which many South American countries struggle to provide, as compared to recent hosts like Saudi Arabia and Qatar with deep financial resources ([15:49]).
- FIFA's scheduling of hosts has ensured that no confederation can host back-to-back cycles — resulting in South America facing a potential 64-year span with only one full men’s World Cup in the region ([18:34]).
South American Realpolitik
- “Don’t ask for permission, ask for forgiveness” is the strategy — put FIFA in a corner by publicly escalating demands ([13:39]).
- Differences inside South America: Some politicians favor a cautious approach due to infrastructure and economic constraints ([19:08]).
- It's also about equity: South America resents being "third in line" behind Europe and Asia in recent host selections ([26:46]).
The “Inevitable” Creep of Expansion
- Major footballing events trend only toward growth: "Nothing gets smaller... things either stay the same or they get bigger." – Phil Hay [24:06]
- Even critics feel powerless: “There is also a kind of weariness and powerlessness feeling to it where you just think, well, of course that's going to happen.” – Adam Crafton [27:25]
- Members who benefit financially are unlikely to resist; the expanded format could easily become permanent ([28:10]).
On Quality, Jeopardy, and Spectacle
- 64 teams mean a watered-down group stage with fewer must-watch matches and more lopsided scores.
- "You’re going to end up with some really bad football teams... what is meant to be the best football tournament in the world." – Adam Crafton [28:43]
Felipe's closing take:
"If I get to 2030 and I'm still in the business... that might be my invitation to get out and start my food truck. I’ve always wanted a food truck." [25:22]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- Adam Crafton on South American frustration:
“Most of the tournament almost entirely isn’t anywhere near us. It’s an ocean away.” [03:13] - Phil Hay on FIFA’s motives:
“Money's at the center of it... It really does come as a huge shock.” [07:26] - Felipe Cardenas on the ask-for-forgiveness approach:
"They've put Gianni Infantino in a difficult position here... this is being billed as a big idea" [13:40] - Phil Hay on football’s ever-expanding nature:
"You won’t find a tournament anywhere that's getting smaller." [24:25] - Felipe Cardenas' food truck exit line:
"If I get to 2030 and... covering football, that might be my invitation to get out and start my food truck. I’ve always wanted a food truck." [25:22]
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 02:12 – Genesis and origins of the 64-team proposal (Adam Crafton)
- 05:36 – FIFA’s motives, commercial interests, and South American frustration (Phil Hay)
- 08:12 – Reactions from UEFA, CAF, and CONCACAF; risks of overexpansion (Adam Crafton)
- 13:17 – South American perspective: legacy, politics, and infrastructure (Felipe Cardenas)
- 15:49 – Infrastructure constraints and geopolitical maneuvering (Adam Crafton)
- 18:34 – Implications for future hosting cycles and South American rationale (Adam Crafton)
- 19:08 – Uruguay’s infrastructure and political challenges (Felipe Cardenas)
- 23:21 – Globalization of the tournament, inevitability of growth, tournament prestige (Phil Hay)
- 25:22 – Felipe Cardenas’ tongue-in-cheek take on leaving journalism if expansion happens
- 27:25 – Sense of inevitability, weariness, and lack of FIFA accountability (Adam Crafton)
- 28:10 – Why expansion to 64 likely won’t be a one-off (Phil Hay, Adam Crafton)
- 32:58 – Timeline: how quickly could this proposal be pushed through? (Adam Crafton)
- 34:39 – Human rights concerns ahead of the 2026 World Cup (Adam Crafton)
- 38:21 – FIFA’s response to human rights complaints (Adam Crafton, Phil Hay)
Tone & Atmosphere
The discussion is sharp, world-weary, and at turns witty and critical. The panelists combine deep reporting with skepticism about FIFA’s motives and a clear-eyed view of the commercial realities driving football’s relentless expansion. There’s a sense of resignation—bordering on dark humor—at the inevitability of a 64-team World Cup, balanced by moments of nostalgia for a more competitive, meaningful tournament.
Conclusion
This episode offers a comprehensive, insider’s look at the politics, economics, and egos shaping football’s biggest event. The Athletic’s team lays out why the 64-team World Cup is gaining traction, who stands to benefit, and why—despite widespread skepticism—football’s showpiece seems destined only to get bigger, for better or worse.