Is a 64-team World Cup inevitable?

Summary

The Athletic FC Podcast: Is a 64-team World Cup Inevitable?

Date: September 25, 2025
Host: Ayo Akinwolere
Guests: Adam Crafton, Phil Hay, Felipe Cardenas

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles rumors and political maneuvering around FIFA’s potential move to expand the 2030 World Cup from a planned 48 countries to a record-breaking 64 team tournament. With exclusive reporting and insight, Athletic journalists unpack who stands to benefit, where the pressure is coming from — especially from South America — the hurdles of infrastructure and scheduling, and what it means for the future of football's biggest event.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Genesis of the 64-Team Proposal

[02:12] Adam Crafton explains the origins:

• The proposal first surfaced at a FIFA Council meeting in March when Uruguay's representative suggested marking the World Cup centenary with an expanded 64-team tournament.
• The 2030 edition is already an anomaly: hosted across three continents (Africa, Europe, South America) and six countries (Morocco, Spain, Portugal, Paraguay, Argentina, Uruguay).
• South America, especially Uruguay, feels sidelined — hosting just one match per nation to commemorate the World Cup’s 100th anniversary, sparking “a fudge compromise.”

Quote:
"This all sounds mad as I'm saying it... They’ve been encouraging FIFA to think differently about this." – Adam Crafton [03:08]

Political Pressure and Motivations

[05:36] Phil Hay on FIFA and the money behind expansion:

• Commercial incentives drive expansion — more teams mean more matches, more TV rights, and higher overall revenue for FIFA.
• With expansion, the World Cup becomes less prestigious: "It's not far off being easier to qualify than not."

Quote:
"When you boil this down, money's at the center of it. He’d never guessed." – Phil Hay [07:26]

South America’s Angle [13:39]:

• As Felipe Cardenas notes: It’s about legacy and ego. Celebrating 100 years with three solitary matches feels insufficient.
• Infrastructure and return-on-investment loom large for countries hosting so few games.
• South Americans want “an entire group to stay for over two weeks” and multiple matches for legacy and economic reasons.

Quote:
"This is being billed as a big idea... what are we celebrating if not the 100 year anniversary?" – Felipe Cardenas [14:03]

Pushback and Concerns

[08:12]:

• UEFA President Aleksander Čeferin and CONCACAF’s Victor Montagliani oppose further expansion, pointing to diluted qualification and overlong tournaments.
• Many see expansion as a one-way road: once a format grows, it never shrinks back.

Quote:
"Once it’s happened once, it'll be hard to get it back in the bottle." – Adam Crafton [09:37]

• Concerns about player workload (FIFPro) and declining competitive jeopardy.
• TV rights value questioned: Will a bloated tournament still attract the same money?
• Infrastructure issues: Most nations lack the 48+ “five-star training bases” FIFA now expects.

Humor and skepticism: "Maybe this could all be one big plot to finally get Scotland in." – Adam Crafton [10:47]

The Infantino Factor and FIFA Politics

• Gianni Infantino shown as open to “all ideas,” careful to broadcast FIFA’s duty to listen to stakeholders.
• South American football presidents and politicians orchestrate strong public backing, creating momentum difficult for FIFA to ignore ([11:39]).

Infantino’s presence:
"From today onwards, we work together to create something truly memorable that people will never forget." – Gianni Infantino (reported by Adam Crafton, paraphrased) [11:13]

Infrastructure, Geopolitics, and World Cup Rotation

• Expanded tournaments require greater infrastructure, which many South American countries struggle to provide, as compared to recent hosts like Saudi Arabia and Qatar with deep financial resources ([15:49]).
• FIFA's scheduling of hosts has ensured that no confederation can host back-to-back cycles — resulting in South America facing a potential 64-year span with only one full men’s World Cup in the region ([18:34]).

South American Realpolitik

• “Don’t ask for permission, ask for forgiveness” is the strategy — put FIFA in a corner by publicly escalating demands ([13:39]).
• Differences inside South America: Some politicians favor a cautious approach due to infrastructure and economic constraints ([19:08]).
• It's also about equity: South America resents being "third in line" behind Europe and Asia in recent host selections ([26:46]).

The “Inevitable” Creep of Expansion

• Major footballing events trend only toward growth: "Nothing gets smaller... things either stay the same or they get bigger." – Phil Hay [24:06]
• Even critics feel powerless: “There is also a kind of weariness and powerlessness feeling to it where you just think, well, of course that's going to happen.” – Adam Crafton [27:25]
• Members who benefit financially are unlikely to resist; the expanded format could easily become permanent ([28:10]).

On Quality, Jeopardy, and Spectacle

• 64 teams mean a watered-down group stage with fewer must-watch matches and more lopsided scores.
• "You’re going to end up with some really bad football teams... what is meant to be the best football tournament in the world." – Adam Crafton [28:43]

Felipe's closing take:
"If I get to 2030 and I'm still in the business... that might be my invitation to get out and start my food truck. I’ve always wanted a food truck." [25:22]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Adam Crafton on South American frustration:
  “Most of the tournament almost entirely isn’t anywhere near us. It’s an ocean away.” [03:13]
• Phil Hay on FIFA’s motives:
  “Money's at the center of it... It really does come as a huge shock.” [07:26]
• Felipe Cardenas on the ask-for-forgiveness approach:
  "They've put Gianni Infantino in a difficult position here... this is being billed as a big idea" [13:40]
• Phil Hay on football’s ever-expanding nature:
  "You won’t find a tournament anywhere that's getting smaller." [24:25]
• Felipe Cardenas' food truck exit line:
  "If I get to 2030 and... covering football, that might be my invitation to get out and start my food truck. I’ve always wanted a food truck." [25:22]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:12 – Genesis and origins of the 64-team proposal (Adam Crafton)
• 05:36 – FIFA’s motives, commercial interests, and South American frustration (Phil Hay)
• 08:12 – Reactions from UEFA, CAF, and CONCACAF; risks of overexpansion (Adam Crafton)
• 13:17 – South American perspective: legacy, politics, and infrastructure (Felipe Cardenas)
• 15:49 – Infrastructure constraints and geopolitical maneuvering (Adam Crafton)
• 18:34 – Implications for future hosting cycles and South American rationale (Adam Crafton)
• 19:08 – Uruguay’s infrastructure and political challenges (Felipe Cardenas)
• 23:21 – Globalization of the tournament, inevitability of growth, tournament prestige (Phil Hay)
• 25:22 – Felipe Cardenas’ tongue-in-cheek take on leaving journalism if expansion happens
• 27:25 – Sense of inevitability, weariness, and lack of FIFA accountability (Adam Crafton)
• 28:10 – Why expansion to 64 likely won’t be a one-off (Phil Hay, Adam Crafton)
• 32:58 – Timeline: how quickly could this proposal be pushed through? (Adam Crafton)
• 34:39 – Human rights concerns ahead of the 2026 World Cup (Adam Crafton)
• 38:21 – FIFA’s response to human rights complaints (Adam Crafton, Phil Hay)

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Tone & Atmosphere

The discussion is sharp, world-weary, and at turns witty and critical. The panelists combine deep reporting with skepticism about FIFA’s motives and a clear-eyed view of the commercial realities driving football’s relentless expansion. There’s a sense of resignation—bordering on dark humor—at the inevitability of a 64-team World Cup, balanced by moments of nostalgia for a more competitive, meaningful tournament.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a comprehensive, insider’s look at the politics, economics, and egos shaping football’s biggest event. The Athletic’s team lays out why the 64-team World Cup is gaining traction, who stands to benefit, and why—despite widespread skepticism—football’s showpiece seems destined only to get bigger, for better or worse.

Transcript

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[Ayo Akimwaleere]

The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimwaleere. FIFA have discussed making the 2030 World Cup a 64 team tournament. So who really wants it? And could it really Happen. All right, with us today, we have Adam Kraft and we've also got Phil Hay and Felipe Cardenas will be joining us a little later on as well. Adam, you've written this piece of a meeting that happened at the FIFA office in Trump Tower on Tuesday about a proposal for a 64 team World cup in 2030. Who on earth is behind this?

[Adam Craft]

Yeah, so I suppose this all started in March this year, where there was a FIFA Council meeting where the Uruguayan representative kind of took everyone by some prize and just came up with this idea, presented this idea to say that the 2030 competition should be a 6014 tournament. Now, to refresh, the 2030 tournament is already a pretty strange tournament because it's across three continents, Africa, Europe and South America. And it's across six countries, Morocco, Spain, Portugal, Paraguay, Argentina and Uruguay. This all sounds mad as I'm saying it, even there's lots of reasons for that which we'll get into. But the. One of the reasons why the. The first three games of the tournament, and that's all the South Americans currently have, one game each in Uruguay, Paraguay and Argentina, is to mark the 100th anniversary of the first World cup, which was in Uruguay. So that's the genesis of it. But the South Americans really, from the start, have had this feeling of it's the centenary, it's our centenary. But most of the tournament almost entirely isn't anywhere near us. It's an ocean away, mostly in Morocco, Spain and Portugal. It's this kind of fudge compromise, and they've been encouraging FIFA to think differently about this. The next step was in April, where the Commebo, which is the South American confederation, President Alejandro Dominguez presented to his own congress this idea for 64 teams and said it would be a good idea. So they got behind it at that point. Then at the FIFA Congress in May, Dominguez was hosting it because it was in Paraguay, usefully for him. And he made this very, very strange speech where he didn't mention it by name at any point, but he kept talking about, if a person turns 50, you don't do the same birthday as you do if you're 49 or 51 years old. You have to think differently. You make it special, you make it memorable. And then Gianni and Fantino came on after that and said, you know, all ideas are good ideas. Everything should be considered. FIFA's got a duty to consider this. There's been pushback to it that we'll talk about, but that was the genesis. And then this week, Tuesday, in New York City, there was this big meeting. You had heads of states from Paraguay and Uruguay. In the meeting you had FIFA President Gianni Infantino, FIFA General Secretary Matthias Glastrom, and then also the heads of the associations from Paraguay, Uruguay, Argentina, and also Dominguez from Conmebol. And the snippets that came out of that meeting, very manicured by each participant on Instagram last night certainly gave the impression that this is heading in the direction of a 64 team competition.

[Ayo Akimwaleere]

Yeah, Phil Adams mentioned this was first proposed in March and we haven't even had the 48 team tournament yet. What do you make of it all?

[Phil Hay]

If you were going to shill for FIFA, or maybe it's fairer to say shill for the people who are proposing this because it is naturally FIFA who have put this forward, then you'd say that including 64 of, what is it, 211 FIFA nations is about as global as the World cup can get. Probably more global or more inclusive than any sporting event, bar the Olympic Games. That'd be fair to say. But if you get into the point where a third of all FIFA member associations are appearing in the finals, it's not far off being easier to qualify than not. And in fact, the strength of some of the nations who are involved means that it will be nigh on impossible for them to fail to qualify. The major countries are all going to make it every time and there will be next to zero jeopardy for any of them. We ran a piece recently, I think it was written by Jack Lang, which referenced the fact that had it not been a 48 team tournament in 2026, Brazil be looking at a playoff match at the moment rather than an automatic slot that they've managed to cling on to. So it is lessening the prestige of the event, or it certainly would at 64 teams. But I'm not naive and having followed a lot of Adam's report, and it's pretty obvious that increasing the size of the tournament isn't lessening the commercial value of it. It's quite the opposite. In FIFA's eyes, the devil with this stuff is always in the details. So Adam referenced there the comments from Dominguez about it being bigger, more special, bigger milestone because it's 100 years since the first World cup and comparing it like Adam referenced to your 50th birthday as opposed to your 51st birthday or your 49th. I mean, personally I intend to be as antisocial on my 50th birthday as I do on my 51st, but each to their own. But when you get further down Adam's report and you clock that, actually common ball and South American countries, federations, what you realize is they're not happy about the slice of the World cup pie that they're getting at the moment. They've had one tournament since 1978. That was Brazil, Brazil in 2014. And they're only part host in the 2030 tournament. And because of the way FIFA set these things up, you're supposed to go through a further two World cup cycles, two World Cups before a confederation can host again. It seems to be a bit ambiguous about whether those rules will apply, but certainly in 2034, it's already going to Saudi Arabia. We know that. So common ball and South American federations countries want a bigger piece of the wedge. And it really does come as a huge shock to realize that when you boil this down, money's at the center of it. He'd never guessed.

[Ayo Akimwaleere]

Yeah, exactly. Adam, have caf said anything from African side of things? There's also any other opposition to this at all?

[Adam Craft]

I'm actually not sure on the caf position. I'll try and find that out. The UEFA president, Alexander Sheffrin's come out before and said he thinks it's a bad idea. He's worried about the impact on qualification. Qualification games are already pretty painful, to be honest, particularly, and maybe that's through the lens of watching England and it feels like they just play Andorra every three weeks in, in the international breaks. And there isn't much jeopardy to that, even with some, you know, you go to Serbia and win 5 nil, it's not great. And then obviously there's the impact on the tournament itself, which, you know, if it's a 64 team tournament, I think the jeopardy is going to be pretty low early on in the tournament unless they do some sort. We don't know what the format will be, but I can't imagine they'll do something like a straight knockout for the first couple of rounds to get it dwindled down. I imagine it'll be group phases and pretty drawn out. So that is difficult. And also what it's interesting is you've had the CONCACAF president, Victor Montagliani, who is also, as is Sheffrin, vice president of FIFA. So these voices matter, saying that they didn't think it was a great idea, that they've not even tried a 48 team. I mean, you have to remember it only went to 32 teams in 1998. I mean, the idea, these hugely expanded tournaments are a Very, very new phenomenon. I would stress that the concept is only meant to be the proposal for one tournament for the 100th anniversary. But, you know, speaking to a few different federations who have concerns about this, they were saying that once it's happened once, it'll be hard to get it back in the bottle because that's the way it tends to be with these things. So I think that's where the opposition comes from. We'll see if there's more opposition from organizations like Fifpro, who have obviously been the players union and they've had issues with FIFA over the past few years about player workload. Just more and more games. And I do wonder, Phil said something interesting where he was saying, it will mean more money. Now, there's a certain point here where these games are so expensive to cover for broadcasters and so dependent on Jeopardy and sustaining interest that I do wonder a bit, how much would it really increase the size of the pie? You know, is a 64 team competition worth more to Fox or, I don't know, the BBC or ITV than a 48 team competition? Because you get Bolivia in and you get a couple more teams, I don't know, Poland and Sweden and. Yeah, I'm being disparaging here. I'm going to say the wrong thing. Get myself into Scotland.

[Phil Hay]

Don't do it. Scotland. Go on.

[Ayo Akimwaleere]

Yeah.

[Phil Hay]

That's what you want? Yeah.

[Ayo Akimwaleere]

Yeah.

[Adam Craft]

Come on.

[Ayo Akimwaleere]

What do you want in there, Phil?

[Adam Craft]

Okay, that open goal there, I may have been talking to. Hopefully they'll forgive me for saying this, a Scottish employee at FIFA last night, and I suggested that maybe this could all be one big plot to finally get Scotland in, but I'm sure that's not the case. So, no, there is opposition. I think there's a FIFA council meeting next week. Would have to go through that, but I think there is a momentum, you know, for heads of state to be rocking up at FIFA offices, to be putting their weight behind this for choosing the clips that went out saying things to Infantino, you know, the Paraguayan guy. Like, Paraguay stands ready. It wants to be a protagonist. Infantino's there, you know, in the clip saying, you know, from today onwards, we work together to create something truly memorable that people will never forget. It does feel like it's going in that direction. Or if not, he's a pretty good actor.

[Ayo Akimwaleere]

Yeah. Let's see who makes it in if this thing actually expands. Next, we'll discuss how much the 2030 World cup means to South America.

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[Ayo Akimwaleere]

And joining us now to add some flesh to the bone around why the South American football federations and even politicians want a 64 team World cup in 2030 is Felipe Cardenas. Felipe Uruguay, Paraguay, Argentina as well as senior executives from CONMEBOL have all backed this proposal. Why is it so important for South America?

[Felipe Cardenas]

I think it's interesting strategy. I think this is the way they're approaching this. On the Como bowl side is the classic strategy of don't ask for permission, ask for forgiveness. And they've put Gianni and Fotino in a difficult position here. They've come together with this proposal. It's being reported, it's actually positively reported in Uruguay. I was reading the Uruguayan papers this morning and so I think if I go into social media I'll probably find some different takes. But this is being billed as a big idea, as something that can change, you know, the biggest sporting event in the world. And it's particularly for this very important moment. I think that's how you, you answer this question. You know, 2030, it's the 100 year anniversary, the World cup kicked off for the first time in Uruguay. And I think when, when the six country plan was proposed, Uruguay in particular, but certainly comoable, felt like, you know, how are we only getting one game? You know, it was like, what's the point here? Like, what are we celebrating if not the 100 year anniversary? And so the proposal, I think there's a lot of egos at play here. I think there's an economic part of this where the infrastructure that's needed in Paraguay and Uruguay and even Argentina to host a World cup, you know, they're probably looking at this like you look at what we're investing, what are we going to get back if we're only hosting one game? And so Uruguay wants six games. They want an entire group to stay for over two weeks in their country. Multiple nations, participating nations. And that's the proposal here. Now, what does it mean for South America? I think if you, you have to get to know the comable president, Alejandro Dominguez, very much a showman. I think he wants to be front and center. He was in New York on social media saying that I have a big announcement to make. We have big news coming. So that's my point about like, oh, we have a proposal. No, no, we have news. You know, we have something that we think is going to actually occur and we have the FIFA president here to discuss it. So there's a lot of egos. They consider them confederation of the current world champions and they think that they deserve more.

[Ayo Akimwaleere]

Say, are plants on the table. Adam, are we looking at stadiums already being conceived to be built and things like that and infrastructure?

[Adam Craft]

Not sure. I mean, I mean I was in Paraguay for the Congress and I think they would definitely need stadium work to be able to host a whole group phase. It's actually one of the issues that has stopped conable from having World Cups over the past few years with the exception of Brazil. I think a lot of the infrastructure, when you look at the standard that FIFA has been looking for from its tournaments, just hasn't been considered to be up to scratch. You know, from a passion and atmosphere and legacy heritage, quality of player perspective, it ticks every box. But from an infrastructure perspective, it hasn't. And then when you also factor in, I mean the other thing with expanded World Cups is it means you need 48 training bases of five star training bases. Most countries don't have that. That's why we are moving to a world where you're either going to have the same countries hosting the World cup up forever just on rotation, or you will have these kind of shared sprawling competitions. It's really interesting as well. I mean, so much of this as ever with FIFA, kind of goes back to Saudi Arabia. Because the 2030 bid, the Saudis were going for 2030 against the South American bid. You also had the European bid with Morocco, Spain, Portugal, Morocco, you had the pan South American bid and you had the Saudi one. Now that's what was being prepared. And it got to a point where I think FIFA thought and the Saudis thought, we're not sure we'd win this, actually, if it goes, given the strength of the centenary application and also the Spain, Portugal, Morocco idea. So then it almost became like, how do we find a way for Saudi Arabia to have a World Cup? And it almost sounds conspiratorial to say it, but you had these three continents blocked off, which meant the African one through Morocco, Spain and Portugal through Europe and the South American teams, which then meant none of those countries could apply for 2034 by giving them 2030. And the CONCACAF involvement in 26 also blocked them out. So it leaves Saudi Arabia basically as the sole proposal for 2034. And by accommodating that, and we know how dependent FIFA has become on Saudi Arabia with the involvement with the Club World cup and the sponsorship and the funding that went into Dazn, that made the whole Club World cup happen in the end, that really. That's kind of what's been the background and the context to a lot of this. And I think FIFA maybe thought that the 2027 Award of Brazil receiving the Women's World cup may be enough to actually kind of keep the response at bay, but it hasn't been. Turns out the men want men's things, right? The men who are running things want men's things as well as the women's tournament. When you think about it, it with it being 2030, and if they only had those three games and it then blocks them out of 2034 and 2038, it would be 2042 by the time South America would be able to host a Men's World cup again, which would mean, really, they'd have had one men's World cup in Brazil and three games in 2030 between 1978 and 2042. So you can understand why the South Americans look at that and think, hang on a minute. It.

[Felipe Cardenas]

Yeah, I agree with Adam. And Uruguay also coming out of this report, they want to host the draw for 2032. They've been explicit that this proposal would also include Uruguay hosting the World cup draw. I think what's interesting is that the president of Uruguay, Jamandou Orsi, he was part of a meeting between Como Bowl's president, Alejandro Dominguez, Ignacio Alonso, which is the Uruguayan federation president, they met during a World cup qualifier recently between Uruguay and Venezuela. And the press caught all three men coming out of a meeting. And it was interesting because Alejandro Dominguez, Como Bol's president And Ignacio Alonso, Uruguay's federation president, were very bullish on what they were talking about and what 2030 is going to mean for Uruguay and for South America. And meanwhile, Uruguay's president, his take, and I'm paraphrasing it, was like, let's take baby steps first. Okay? Let's not get too far the line here when we're talking about an expanded tournament from 48 teams to 64 in a country that struggles from an infrastructure perspective. And so I think there's still, this is not a victory lap yet, and certainly on the ground in Paraguay, Argentina and Uruguay. I think they're very conscious of the limitations that they have. But to Adam's point, there is a tug of war happening right now. I think it would probably go back to 2014 between Como Bol and UEFA, which is the premier confederation. Which confederation deserves more attention, which confederation has the better players, the better personality. And I think this is all part of that. You know, I mentioned Alejandro Dominguez as being one who is very open about the plans for Como bowl, you know, competing at the same table as UEFA. I think what's interesting here is that this World cup that is on the horizon, the 2026 World cup, it changed the World cup qualifiers in South America so much to the point where it's gone from being one of the most grueling World cup qualification campaigns in the world when only three teams or only four teams got in automatically, to now automatic qualifiers and a seventh that goes to a playoff. So what happens with a 64 team tournament in South America where there are already three countries automatically qualified? It's just maybe they're not thinking this through or maybe that is something that they're willing to sacrifice, which was part of the brand of Como bowl, that when you qualify out of comable, you've earned it. And that's where I think right now, if you get on social media and you look at the pundits around South America and not just the reports in Uruguay, that's what's being discussed. How far are we going to take this, where we denigrate and really strip our qualification process of all the meat on the bone here, just to expand a World cup and just to make men in power a lot happier. So still plenty to tell, but I can understand how in South America they say, we have this history. We're celebrating a 100 year anniversary of the first World cup ever. We want to be major players.

[Adam Craft]

I think it's quite possible you put all your cards on the table saying this is the most things that we would want one, and you end up not maybe getting all of it, but you end up getting a bit more. And actually that might be the best thing for them in terms of, from an infrastructure point of view, because they probably don't want to be in a position where they end up having to spend billions of pounds, dollars, pesos, certainly billions at the moment, the way Argentina is going. And there will be internal political challenges with that. It was also interesting the Argentine president, Javier Miller, wasn't the there yesterday. I mean, he was meeting President Trump trying to bail out the Argentine economy yesterday. And the Argentine Football association treasurer went on Twitter and was incredibly critical of that as well. So there's a lot of different dynamics at play that I think opponents of this would be able to latch onto.

[Ayo Akimwaleere]

Yeah, Phil, I'm just thinking about all the things we've spoken about, especially the World cup in Saudi Arabia and how FIFA have tried to appease so many people by having a World cup previous to that and giving it to various territories. I mean, are we surprised that other men want a piece of the pie now, considering the measly scraps they've been given?

[Phil Hay]

No, not at all. And I was quite interested by what Adam was saying about the influence that Saudi Arabia has had on this, and probably more to the point, FIFA's. The amount of attention that FIFA pays to Saudi Arabia feels a little bit like it's been a distraction when it comes to the way in which they've allowed 20, 30 to piece together. It definitely isn't fair that your South American countries are getting one game apiece for this tournament, but more than. Than being unfair, it's just a bit weird. I don't really see how a tournament so disparate over such a wide geographical area, or one set up like this really works. I wouldn't say it was a revelation when UEFA did it with the Euros, and I can't, in all honesty, see the point. It's definitely worth acknowledging that it's the 100th year anniversary, the centenary World cup coming up, but if you are spreading games across, say, 20, 25 countries, and I totally understand the practicalities of that are impossible. So it's never going to happen, then. Maybe that would like a festival of World cup football, but like six countries and three continents feels like a sort of arbitrary back of a fag packet way of celebrating it. It doesn't strike me as a worldwide jamboree, if that makes sense. So in some ways actually involving 64 teams, 64 nations would be much More of a kind of global gesture, more of a token gesture than it is at the moment. And I can personally see it happening. And then after that, I can definitely see a push for 64 teams to become the norm, because you won't find a tournamen anywhere. That's getting smaller. All the major tournaments are getting bigger. That applies to the Champions League, the Club World Cup. It's happened with the Euros. It was happening with the World cup for 2026 anyway. I mean, even in England with the Carabao cup, the League cup, which always feels like it's going to be the collateral damage of the fixture list getting out of hand. The same with the FA Cup. They tinker around the edges with replays and the time at which Premier League clubs come into the competition, but they absolutely never do away with it, because nobody ever does away with anything in football. Things either stay the same or they. They get bigger. Nothing gets smaller.

[Felipe Cardenas]

Yeah, I mean, I'm on the record, like now on, on X or on Twitter, is saying, I think this is a dumb idea. I really do it. To me, it's like, if I get to 2030 and I'm still in the business, in the industry covering football, that might be my invitation to get out and start my food truck. I've always wanted a food truck.

[Ayo Akimwaleere]

Go get it.

[Felipe Cardenas]

So I don't know if I can cover a 6014 World cup and do an honest job about it. But I understand the stakes, and Phil makes a great point. Nothing is getting smaller in this. In the world we live in. Globalization is the buzzword. It's been the buzzword for a long time, but it really does seem like there are no limits. And again, the pressure that Comable is putting on Gianni Infantino, who, correct me if I'm wrong, he is the architect of the 48 team World cup, which is still so heavily criticized. And they know that. They know that. They're probably saying, like, you're the guy who's pushing expansion. We just have another plan that you can say okay to. And this is about uniting the world and its values behind the one thing that makes the world come together, which football. I think there's significant pressure on Infantino from Como bowl because it's like a taste of your own medicine. And it'll be interesting to see how FIFA goes about messaging this proposal, whether they accept it or not. But how do they message around it when they're getting to a decision or where they're considering a decision? And then how does South American take that final decision? To heart.

[Adam Craft]

I think also, Felipe, we've been talking a lot about this kind of Europe v South America question. And to be clear, earlier, I wasn't blaming Saudi Arabia for this. It's more the circumstance around that that have created this bizarre 2030 edition. But what you do also have is the growing influence of the Asian confederation, where, you know, just since 2002, obviously you had Japan and South Korea, then you've had Qatar, now you've had Saudi 2034. So that's three men's World Cups just this century. So maybe South America look at that and think, we understand, you know, Europe's a big confederation, but like, are we also less important than the Asian confederation now as well? Are we the third in line? The difference though, of course is that Qatar, Saudi in particular have been prepared to spend insane amounts of money to make these tournaments happen. From an infrastructure perspective. Brazil maybe did, to be fair, but I'm not sure that certainly Argentina is not in a position to be doing things like that at the moment. I don't think Uruguay and Paraguay are. Filippo's point is right. I mean, the whole thing is completely mad. We are objective reporters, we look at the facts, but when you step back at it and just think the World cup will have doubled in size, eyes, it's crazy. It is completely crazy. But there is also a kind of weariness and powerlessness feeling to it where you just think, well, of course that's going to happen.

[Phil Hay]

Yeah. I don't buy the idea at all that it'll be a one off if it happens in 2030. I mean, if FIFA's about to pull in record revenues for this World cup cycle, isn't it like 10 billion pounds, 10 billion dollars for the tournament, 13 billion for the cycle. And if revenue goes up again for 2030, which it might well do, it's not going to want to scale back. And my impression, without being massively close to this, is that the associations wouldn't want to scale back either. Because whether you like Gim Fantino or not, there are plenty of associations out there who do like him because more money for FIFA means more money for them and he does consistently bring in more money for FIFA.

[Adam Craft]

The only thing I'd say on that with the member associations is a lot of them sell their own rights for qualification. And if that TV money starts to have the feeling of what is the point of this? We know the outcome, it already feels a bit like that. But I think most broadcasters who do it still have the feeling of the country want to see the games and therefore they're worth something. But I do think that will temper a little bit the kind of enthusiasm of maybe the 15 to 20 nations that get a chance that otherwise wouldn't do. I mean, there's already going to be, you know, for the 48 team edition, which is great. You're going to have some countries coming in that are very, very new to the World cup that will have access to the tournament. But I mean I do think 64, like you're going to end up with some really bad football teams. What is meant to be the best football tournament in world we saw with. I'm not saying it would be as bad as this, but it might not be far off. You know the Auckland story during the club World cup where it just felt a bit daft, like you're watching certain teams that just can't compete at that level.

[Felipe Cardenas]

Don't mention Auckland to Boca Juniors fans though. It's like the new classical all right.

[Ayo Akimwaleere]

Philippe, I think we better let you go get that food truck prepped, man. I'm ready for next summer, mate. Roll it out. We'll all be eating some of your tacos or whatever you're making.

[Felipe Cardenas]

My go to is going to be a hamburgers and BLTs. That's it. Two pick, right? It's easy picks depending on what you want.

[Ayo Akimwaleere]

I'll take the BLT.

[Felipe Cardenas]

There you go. Take her.

[Ayo Akimwaleere]

Well, that's 2030 dealt with. Next, let's look at 2026.

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[Felipe Cardenas]

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[Adam Craft]

You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayawakamolere.

[Ayo Akimwaleere]

Now, before we get to 2026, 2030 and a possible 64 team addition would only be less than five years away. Adam, what would the timeframe of this getting over the line actually be if this was to happen?

[Adam Craft]

Well, in some of the South American reporting overnight, there was a suggestion there's a FIFA council meeting next week where they may look to kind of push it through. I don't know if that's feasible or if there would be more deliberations. It would have to go a bit further than that. But we do sometimes see these things just all of a sudden they happen almost to avoid the kind of prolonged debate that might be able to stop it from happening. So it could be pretty fast. It would kind of have to be given, you know, we're now in 2025 and only a couple of years away from qualification happening and if there are infrastructure things to be done, then they need to start.

[Phil Hay]

That would be madness though. No? Next week FIFA just say, yeah, do you know what we'll make it 64 team tournament. On we go. I mean I know how FIFA operates.

[Ayo Akimwaleere]

But would that surprise you, Phil, if you heard it? I mean it's not beyond the Renzo reality.

[Phil Hay]

Well, no, not at all. You just imagine that other stakeholders elsewhere might want a bit of involvement. Not a bit of a say the.

[Adam Craft]

FIFA council has representation from all the confederations that it would be debated and then decided and everything would be argued over. So I guess that would be their process. I don't think it would need sort of congress approval. I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it would just need council approval. So that is, you know, the way it was works.

[Ayo Akimwaleere]

Okay, well let's switch from the 2030 World cup to the 2026 World Cup. Around 259 days to go until next summer's tournament actually kicks off. And Adam, you've got a column on the athletic, on what you're hearing ahead of the tournament and there's a piece around human rights that I just read just before we jumped on. And can you tell us a bit more about that concerns raised after the Club World cup in the summer just gone.

[Adam Craft]

Yeah, human rights concerns in the United States. Who'd have thought it during the Club World Cup. I think this is probably a. Since the, you know, everything that happened with Qatar World Cup, FIFA now has some kind of duty slash obligation to enable people to report human rights grievances. Complaints that can then be looked into. And FIFA, we obtained the kind of breakdown of it. I think it was a over 145reports that they received mostly from football supporters who attended the tournament through FIFA's reporting mechanism and actually the highest number of complaints related to the current U.S. government's policy and alleged enforcement. Now that included reports of alleged sightings of ice officials around games or customs Border protection. Now should say that the U.S. department of Homeland Security, despite those reports that were made by fans to FIFA told us that this was purely another case of inverse commas, fear mongering. So that was their position of it. And also the White House task force that has been set up for the World cup told FIFA that there was nothing going on. But at the same time fans have made these reports of the sightings. So those are the two positions. We can only report what we know at this stage on that. But the full breakdown was really interesting because the second highest number of complaints related to, to extreme heat concerns for fans. Now there were certainly some stadiums that I went to during the tournament where you're not really shielded from the sun. The MetLife can be a bit like that. Where the final is in New York, New Jersey. There was very long lines at times to use water fountains and very expensive to buy water bottles, particularly if you're like a family of three or whatever. It becomes like a $25 expedition to buy bottles of water collectively. And then there was other complaints. 20 discrimination complaints, 20 complaints, workers rights reports, harassment. A handful. Also some really interesting bits around freedom of religion. Stadiums not having prayer rooms in place, which I think we've, you know, we've come to expect certainly in the uk I don't think that was the case at all the US Stadiums this summer. And you can imagine the way that the kind of the culture wars have gone in the United States, that if it was to be announced that there were prayer rooms for certain religions within stadiums in the United States, that that could be alighted upon by people who agree or disagree with that position. So I think that may become a talking point in the next few months. There was also complaints around freedom of speech, which, you know, really at the moment in the United States, freedom of speech means very different things to different people on any given hour of any given day. But I think that related to back banners being taken off supporters. As I understand it, if there was a written political message, so if it was something like f ice as may have been a banner during the tournament, with everything that was going on in Los Angeles at the time, that was one of the ones that I was told about that would be taken away because it's deemed to be a political message. If it's something that is a national team flag, so a Palestine or Israel flag, I think FIFA's position is that that would be okay, but if it was a written message, then it would be slightly different. So how that holds up within all the political pressures that we're seeing at the moment in the United States over the next year or so is a whole other question.

[Phil Hay]

Yeah.

[Ayo Akimwaleere]

Amidst what Adams just said, Phil, and all the other stuff we've covered here around fans, is this kind of dangerous for FIFA, considering the World cup fundamentally is about bringing people from around the world together to celebrate one thing we do love together and accept all our differences in general, it is.

[Phil Hay]

Although there are lots of parts of the world where you have political issues and political complications, and the UK certainly isn't immune to that at the moment. The interesting thing that sprung to mind when I was reading Adam's piece and feel easy for him to answer this is what FIFA actually do about these Complaints, how do these land with them? And it's great that the portal's there and it's quite clearly being used for people to submit complaints. But what then is the end result? The reason I sort of ask that is that you can't covered the anti discrimination messaging at the Club World cup which just seemed to disappear. The plan to do it, I think there was one night where there was some messaging, but in general the anticipated widespread messaging plan that the proposal that they come up with just wasn't there. So will they actually be able to act on any of this stuff? Will they act on any of this stuff? What will they do?

[Adam Craft]

Yeah, so I suppose take those one by one. The discrimination messaging, anti discrimination messaging that you refer to, which was basically normally at FIFA tournaments, even you know, going back to Qatar, Australia, New Zealand, Women's World cup, you would have these messages around stadiums and also on FIFA social media channels promoting their own campaigns, their own no racism campaigns, no discrimination campaigns, Unite for inclusion campaigns. And they just disappeared for the vast majority of this tournament. Now FIFA have never really explained this, but we saw something very similar around the scene super bowl where messaging that was ordinarily in place at the end lines was no longer present. FIFA then also didn't do it. I think campaign groups reacting to this have made a link between the current US administration's approach to what they call DEI and any kind of campaigns that are deemed to be that and the opposition towards that. And I think what we may be seeing is this kind of self policing by organizations and companies where they almost act before they're told to act by the administration, where they know it might be frowned upon and there may be some impact, they don't really know what it is. Now to take your other point in terms of like what do they actually do when they get these complaints? They do respond to people. So some of the complaints would have been actually just people saying we don't agree with the government policies, the World cup, club World cup shouldn't be here. And FIFA will respond to them saying for XYZ reason we believe it's appropriate and we're working with the White House Task force on this, on this, on this, on this and this, on other stuff, I don't know, for example, if it's a harassment complaint, it might be something like passing it on to the relevant authorities. If it's an excessive use of force complaint, in other cases it might be if it was extreme, he or if it was a banner being taken away for wrongful reasons, it might be a degree of recompense for tickets. So there's different responses I think, based on whatever the issue is.

[Ayo Akimwaleere]

All right, gents, let's leave it there. Adam, Phil, and also Felipe for joining us a little earlier. Thank you guys for listening as well. Matt Davis Adams is here tomorrow with a preview. Looking ahead to the weekend's Premier League action.

[Adam Craft]

You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabre and Jay Beal. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and Adie Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated, dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.

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