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Thomas Hill
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Seb Stafford-Bloor
Foreign.
- [02:08]
Ayo Akimolere
Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere Xabi Alonso's Real Madrid reign is in the balance. They've won just two of their last eight, and player power is threatening to undermine him. So is he on his way out.
- [02:24]
Here with us today in the studio, we've got Thomas Hill, Lopez Manchero. We've also got Dermot Corrigan, who is in Madrid. And joining us later, full house Today we've got Seb Stafford Blu, who was our German football writer as well. Okay gents, let's get into this because Wednesday night's 21 defeat to Manchester City at the Bernabeu makes it back to back defeat for Xabi Alonso's Real Madrid. Look, let's put this into context, Irma. They are currently second in La Liga and still in a very desirable position in the Champions League. But heading into this game there was pressure mounting on him. Talk to us, what is the state of play right now?
- [03:04]
Dermot Corrigan
The latest on his position, and this is around lunchtime on Thursday, is that he's safe in the job for now. And there has been a lot of anger at the Bernabeu about how the team has been playing recently, especially after a really shambolic performance against Celta Vigo at the weekend when Celto walked in the second goal against nine men. Madrid in the added time in the game, Florentino Perez, we're sure, was really angry at that, was not happy at how the team were playing and was seriously considering making a change on the bench. Alonso survived that into Wednesday's game against Manchester City when Madrid were much better. They started off the game with way more intensity, organization passion than they had showed in previous games. Went ahead, eventually lost to Man City and that was kind of down to the. The real problems that Madrid have, both in how the squad is put together and in with a lot of injuries in defense at the moment. It's always painful to lose at home in the Bernabeu. It's especially painful to lose to Pep Guardiola and Manchester City. So I wouldn't say that people were particularly happy last night leaving the stadium, but the team had shown enough, Alonso had shown enough to survive. They have three huge games coming up now. They're going to Alaves at the weekend. They've got a game against lower league Talavera Dell arena in the Copa del Rey on Wednesday and then another game at home to Sevilla before the winter break. The word is that Alonso should have those three games at least to show that he's turning things around to get the team back playing better. But it's still very dicey for him and there's still a lot of disappointment with how things have gone over the last month around Madrid.
- [04:33]
Ayo Akimolere
Well, after Wednesday night's game, Jude Bellingham told TNT that the team was still behind Alonso.
- [04:40]
Thomas Hill
The manager's been great. I think I've personally got a great relationship with him. A lot of the lads do as well. I think after the first run of games where we, where we drew a few, we had some really great conversations internally and we felt like we were going to be on the back the backside of that bad form. And then yeah, and just the last couple of games again, just, just let ourselves down again. But like I said, no one's down in tools, no one's complaining, moaning, thinking the season's over.
- [05:05]
Ayo Akimolere
I mean, Thomas, this is interesting because given all the talk around, player power seems to have an ally in Jude Bellingham. Just how big a voice is Bellingham at Real Madrid?
- [05:13]
Thomas Hill
I think he's a big voice. I think you can see that on the pitch as well. Yesterday, kind of showing his, his frustration, I think at times towards his teammates, kind of geeing up his teammates. That's something we've become used to seeing him from him really at his. During his time at Dortmund, his time with England. Now I think he, he also seems to be one of those kind of seemingly undroppable stars, along with Mbappe and Vinicius. So it's a big voice to have in Alonso's corner. I'd say that part of the problem with this Madrid side is that they maybe don't have enough of those voices. In the years since Kroos, Modric, Ramos, these, these big leaders have, have left. They don't really seem to have someone who's kind of filled that void. Maybe Carvajal, but he's on the bench injured at the moment. We saw him the other day getting in trouble with the referee even when he's injured. But I think the problem for Madrid is they don't have quite enough of those experienced leaders. So really you're looking to a lot of kind of players who might not be considered veterans at other clubs, but Valverde, Vinicius, players who've been there, done it at Real Madrid. Alonso really needs those players to back him. And you know, there were good signs in that City game that some of those experienced players are, are kind of behind him at the moment.
- [06:20]
Ayo Akimolere
Where are we with it all, Dermot? Because, you know, we, we know how things work at Real Madrid. Is it a matter of when, not if he gets the sack?
- [06:30]
Dermot Corrigan
No, I think Alonso still has time to turn it around. It's quite common at Real Madrid to have a crisis in, in the autumn time, things can go badly. They can lose in the Champions League to a team like Sheriff Tiraspal. A few years ago, Ancelotti lost to them, and then six months later they were having all those rim on Tata comebacks and winning the Champions League final against Liverpool. So there's still time for Alonso to turn it around, but it is going to be difficult. It's a super interesting situation in that last year under Ancelotti. Lots of people around the club, within the dressing room, in the boardroom, thought that Ancelotti had just maybe given some of the stars a little bit too much leeway. He's known as a great man manager, a guy who trusts the bigger players. But guys like Vinicius, Bellingham were not out of control, but just needed a bit of a stronger hand. And that was why Alonso was brought in. The club were happy with him to bring in new, more modern methods of working to try and organize the team better, play a different style of football, where Ancelotti played a lot of counter attack. And now the idea was to take the initiative in games to press up the pitch, to be more aggressive all over the pitch and the board up to Florentino Perez. You know, we've reported, we're online with that idea. The dressing room, not maybe so much. Trying to get Bellingham, Vinicius Mbappe to press in an organized way is difficult, as we've talked about here before. So the idea was that Alonso had to try and do that. It worked for a while up to the Clasico back in October when Madrid were five points clear at the top of the table. But then things pretty quickly fell apart. Then we heard with Vinicius around his contract also people and, you know, we're pretty sure that Bellingham hasn't been 100% happy with everything Alonso has been asking him to do so far, especially tactically. Not really sure where Bellingham exactly fits into Alonso's system. But then we saw last night that after the game that players, including Bellingham, Courtois, Rodrigo as well, everybody came out to back their coach to say that we were behind the coach. Whether or not they agree with everything he's asked them to do behind the scenes, whether they enjoy maybe some of the training sessions, the video sessions, all this kind of modern coaching stuff that Alonso is trying to impose on the players as they see it, they had decided collectively, it looked like that, you know, we're going to back him. We're not going to come out and throw him under the bus or, or make the bed for him, as people say in Spain. So Alonso has that backing behind him. He has at least Florentino's wavering over the ax, if we could put it that way. So I think he's safe for a little while. But again, it's. It's going to come down to what the results are on the pitch. Another really embarrassing game at Alaves at the weekend, losing in the Copa del Rey to a lower league semi pro team that you know, not Talavera del Reyna, not a team that many people in Spain would have heard of and definitely not around the world. It'll also be in trouble again then. The super cup is coming up in January. They've got to play Atletico Madrid in the semi final of that. If they win that, it's probably going to be Barcelona in the final, which is two either really big opportunities to make a statement and show look, we're playing really well, we've taken on board the manager's ideas, we're building towards the rest of the season or two opportunities for things to go disastrously wrong and for Alonso to be in trouble again.
- [09:31]
Ayo Akimolere
Is it strange just how quickly it sort of unraveled for Xabi Alonso? Dermot spoken about it. Modern coach in Florentino Perez knows exactly what he wanted. It's a very different coach to Ancelotti. We've seen what he's achieved at Leverkus and this was supposed to be the big step up.
- [09:48]
Thomas Hill
Yeah, I'd say I.O. you know, any other club I'd say would be a surprise how quickly it's unraveled. But as Dermotz just detailed there at Madrid, things move so quickly and, you know, fortunes can really change just like that. I would say, you know, I don't think Alonso inherited as brilliant a situation as people might have thought. They finished trophyless last season or without any, any major trophies under Ancelotti. He leaves behind a kind of injury plagued, aging squad. Okay, they then back him in the transfer market, but he hasn't exactly had a lot of time in six months to fully implement his ideas. We know he's faced that dressing room, you know, opposition maybe at times to some of his methods. And I think fundamentally it comes down to how project managers, I guess if, if you want to call it like that, aren't always welcome at Madrid. They're not always the ones who, who do well, the guys with big ideas. Right. We know that Alonso has this brilliant CV from his time at Leverkusen, but that man, management of the stars is so important at Madrid. I think if you look back to probably the last kind of project manager in that sense who was looking to fully change Madrid style of play was maybe Julian Lopetegui, who, you know, last an incredibly short period of time as well under Perez in 2018. So, yeah, it's, it's been tricky for Alonso and I guess I'm surprised that things have turned against him so quickly given that he's a former Madrid star, one of the kind of Madrid Legends of of recent years. But not surprised given the the wider context around the club and what they've always acted like.
- [11:16]
Ayo Akimolere
Well, let's talk about the defeat to Manchester City. How significant was it, Dermot? Especially given it was Barcelona's Pep Guardio? And should some of the players also take the blame here because there were moments it wasn't going their way and they look like sport brats at times for sure.
- [11:32]
Dermot Corrigan
Playing against Pep Guardiola is always a big occasion at the Birmingham. We even saw Pep enjoying himself at the press conference the night before supporting Alonso, who he knows from time together at Bayern Munich. I think they're personally close as well. Their families know each other from their time together in Germany. But Pep enjoyed winding up. Some of the Madrid media would have known that that wouldn't have gone down well with the real die hard Madrid supporters. Not with Florentino either. But the team played better than before. If you thought they looked bad against Man City, like against hey Celta at the weekend was like comparatively a lot worse. You know, two players getting sent off for silly things when the team are trying to get back into the game. But there are huge problems with the squad like starting with the defence. They're missing five defenders, probably three of their best back. Four were missing. Eder Militao got injured at the weekend and he's key for them. He's their best defender by far. He's the guy who has that intensity, that aggression can press up. The pitch is brilliant at nipping in front of a center forward, winning the ball back. Last night it was Asensio and Rudiger. Asensio, young guy who don't think is really up to the standard required at Real Madrid. He's kind of come in because there were so many injuries last season, stayed around because of that as well. But he not a long term option I think for Madrid center back. And Rudiger's had a lot of injury issues over the last couple of years. You know, we've seen Rudiger against Man City before, really take on Haaland in a physical battle, look to wind him up and to annoy him. Whereas last night what we saw was him, you know, feeling outmatched at when that cross came in, giving away the penalty which ultimately cost Madrid the game. So Alonso's having to deal with that. And within that context I don't think they played that badly. There were some whistles for the players from the stands at Madrid for just generally how the team was going, especially in second half when City were passing the ball around, making a lot of chances. Courtois made a lot of saves. But then at the end when, you know, Alonso threw on a lot of attacking players, even guys like Endrick who haven't had much of a chance recently, they were trying to get that passion, get that energy in the Bernabeu to go for one of those famous comeback Remontade. Knights didn't work out just because, you know, the players weren't there. City were able to handle it, but at least they were trying. I think that was the feeling that amongst most of the Madrid fans, obviously they were upset. Losing the city's bad. Winning two games out of eight is bad, losing to Guardiola is bad. But they at least had a feeling that the team were trying and giving their best, which even for Madrid is a big deal. You know, they love to have their superstars and they like to have really talented players and guys with amazing skills, but they also really need people who will fight for the jersey and that kind of thing goes down really well at Madrid. And the feeling last night was that it was more of a team who were trying but weren't able to do it, rather than a team who just weren't trying at all.
- [14:17]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, well, Real Madrid have lost back to back home games at the Bernabeu, but prior to Sunday, their other six games in this recent run of bad form were all away, actually. And that was at the request of Madrid due to the NFL games being staged at their stadium. How much of an impact do you think it's been that Madrid have had to play all these away games? Because some might say they were chasing the buck, got the money, but actually at a cost of their form.
- [14:43]
Thomas Hill
Yeah, it's, I think those away games definitely mean it's, it's arguably harder for Alonso to like fully impose his, his style of play with a kind of friendly crowd around him. Although having said that last night, I mean, you know, the Bernabeu also kind of rules by boos and whistles sometimes. You know, they often like voice their disapproval at managers ideas. I also think if you look at those teams, Royal Viacano, Elche, Girona, some of these teams that they drew against, you'd still fully expect them to get results, to get wins against them. And I think the most worrying thing, as demott was saying, there was kind of the lack of intensity shown by players, the lack of effort shown by players and the lack of attacking ideas. I think when you've got a front line that good in Mbappe, Vinicius, Bellingham, Bape is Having an amazing season, but I think he scored, you know, almost 60% of Madrid's goals this, this campaign, you kind of, you can't just rely on him. So I think the away games thing, I'm sure it hasn't helped because you know you're going to some, some potentially quite hostile grounds to try and impose your, your way of playing. But they should have been beating those teams as well. Maybe with the exception of Elche, who I think are having a, having a brilliant season in terms of bringing the NFL there. I mean that's just real Madrid, isn't it? I mean, I mean even going back to Perez's first spell in charge with the Galacticos, the whole idea there was to create a team who were, you know, so potent in terms of star power that no matter what the results are, you're still going to be attracting people to the stadium. I was in Madrid last week and loads of people talking to me about how expensive the tickets are even for like a game against Celta Vigo at the weekend. So clearly it's still. Perez has still created a must see experience of the Bernabeu even when the team undoing particularly well. Having said that, I'm sure he'd prefer the team to be gelling and to have a manager in charge who's really able to impose his ideas and really able to attract even more people to the, to the stadium.
- [16:33]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. Do you think it's a tenuous link, Dermot? The fact that perhaps they've forsaken financial gain for, you know, league form? In many respects Thomas is right on paper. They should have beaten those teams away for sure.
- [16:44]
Dermot Corrigan
Madrid were excited about getting all the money that they got from the NFL and the exposure. They were really happy. Florentino was delighted with the NFL there. The NFL were really was there for the game and the NFL were really impressed by the stadium. Spoke publicly about it, which went down really well with Madrid who were really proud of the whole occasion and it meant they had to play away, which didn't help. Another thing is just the way the fixture list worked out that they played against just the wrong type of teams for the way Madrid are set up at the minute went to Rayo, who have really good coach in Inigo Perez Elche, one of the best coach teams in La Liga. Celta Vigo as well are really good at, at beating the press. The way that they play doesn't suit how Alonso was setting up Celta. The way they were able to beat the press was almost embarrassing for Madrid. They would just wait until they found which of the superstars wasn't pressing properly and then quickly moved the ball down that side of the pitch and suddenly they were at Madrid's exposed defense. So from a tactical point of view as well as from the playing away point of view, the fixture list hasn't worked out well for Alonso. It is kind of funny that in theory the most difficult away game was to go to Sam Amaze and play Athletic Bilbao, who are in the Champions League. Paris Saint Germain drew nil all at Sam Mamas last night, but because of the way Athletic played, they give you more space. They want to come out at you as well, make it into a battle, go one on one. And Madrid were up for that. Tactically they were able to handle it, which is just kind of how football works, I guess. Styles make games in a way, and it was. It's also just a way that things are just going against Alonso at the minute that no matter he's trying his best to do what he believes is right. He does know how the club works. He has that experience. He's a really bright guy as well, but the combination of factors have gone against him over the last month or so which has left him in this position that he's in.
- [18:24]
Thomas Hill
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Seb Stafford-Bloor
IO, Accumulere.
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- [22:23]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, well, let's talk about the players and one in particular. I'm not trying to single him out, but I think Vinicius Junior's conduct recently has been really fascinating, Derma, you know, both for the perception of Alonso's management and also, I guess, the impact it's had on the team's performance.
- [22:41]
Dermot Corrigan
Yeah, for sure. When Vinicius is subbed off in the Clasico back in October, Madrid are five points clear at the top of the table. They've only lost one game. I think they won 14 of 15 of the first games in the season. Everything seems to be coming together. Maybe the team aren't playing exactly as he would like, but. But it's working out. Vinicius makes that really public protest against Alonso's decision, makes sure that everybody knows, then apologizes to everybody else at the club except for Alonso, and gets away with it, more or less. There's no sanction from the club. Alonso himself has to concede a bit. He's taken him off in fewer games more recently. Vinicius played almost every minute since then. I'd compare it a bit with what's happening at Liverpool with Mo Salah. It's a different situation for sure, but there are similarities in that it's a big player publicly showing his discontent with the coach. At Liverpool, Salah dropped from the team. The coach gets full backing from the hierarchy at Anfield, whereas at Madrid. You know, we've reported that Vinicius went and told Florentino Perez that he wasn't going to renew his contract with Alonso as coach. But even still, he was allowed to get away with it, more or less. There was no big show of support for the coach. Florento Perez can come out anytime he wants and do an interview back in Alonso. He can let it be known through the connections he has to the media here in Spain that he's not happy with Vinicius behavior if he wanted to, but he didn't do that. So it made it more difficult for Alonso and it also makes it easier for other players, whether it's Bellingham or Valverde or other Guys who are not so happy with how things are going, for them to let it be known that they're not happy either, which also undermines the coach's authority in the dressing room, with the fans and with everybody. So. And yet another factor which made it difficult for Alonso to do the work that he was brought in to try to do this year.
- [24:24]
Ayo Akimolere
There's clearly some issues with man management, but I look at the work he did at Leverkusen. This is a coach. This is a guy that tweaks things, that puts formations together and makes a team work in his mind, this other part of things, which is the Real Madrid thing, and maybe more Carlo Ancelotti things, more managerial. Do you think that's the junction we're struggling with here with. With Alonso?
- [24:45]
Thomas Hill
Yeah, I think so. Because the task that he faced at Madrid was totally different to Leverkusen. Madrid is just such a behemoth of a club. It's such a big thing that you have to deal with all those politics. It's not enough to be a brilliant tactician. In fact, if anything, maybe that goes against you if you're seen as that. I mean, you know, remember in this piece that Mario did at the end of October, which I think we really need to kind of highlight that reporting by Mario, because at that point, Madrid were five points clear at the top of La Liga. Everything looked great at the end of October. And a source close to senior player at the time told him, you know, he thinks he's Pep Guardiola, but for now, he's. He's just Xabi Alonso. So I think in a way, those great ideas can actually work against you at Madrid. You need someone with those kind of soft skills, for want of a better phrase, like Ancelotti had. And, you know, if there's one thing I think that this, you know, short tenure for now of Alonso shows, it's that actually, we should probably give Ancelotti a lot of respect for how he kind of kept a lid on things in the dressing room during all of his. His two spells there.
- [25:44]
Dermot Corrigan
Really?
- [25:44]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. Well, let's bring Seb Stafford Bloh in now. Our German football wr. Good to have you with us. And I know you joined us at the point in which we're talking about Leverkusen, Alonso versus Madrid, Alonso. I mean, that is what I feel from the outside looking in. Is that a wonderful coach, but in terms of that managerial aspect of things that the typical Real Madrid manager does, that might be a junction in which he's struggling at the moment.
- [26:10]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Yeah, well, it was Untried, really, the idea of coaching Leverkusen is completely different. Tomas was saying exactly that. Leverkusen, within that context, in German football, they exist in the shadows. There's not a lot of media spotlight. You do not get a lot of egos in the dressing room, because it's a way station of a club, really. You go there to go then on to the elite level afterwards. And so the group that he inherited, with a few exceptions, players like Granit Xhaka, Alex Grimaldo, Patrick Schick, Jonas Hoffman, who were still kind of peak age, the vast majority were players who were still growing, who were still developing, who still felt they had plenty to learn.
- [26:46]
Dermot Corrigan
And.
- [26:47]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
And I don't think it's unfair to say that quite a few of them were enthralled to Alonso. Everyone will remember the very famous social media clip of him passing a football about 60 yards across the training ground, which looked great with a derby. Star ball with the. With the hexagons rotated really nicely. But I think there's something serious in that, which is that players who go to Leverkusen probably, I mean, those who were there before he arrived probably didn't expect to be coached by a Champions League and World cup winner who'd played for Real Madrid, Bayern Munich and Liverpool. And there was certainly a reverence which helped him communicate and deal with some of those players. And also the type of player there is very different. It's the same with Bayern Munich, I guess, would be the equivalent in Germany. People underestimate how much ego you need to play for one of those clubs. It's not just about being good either as a coach or a player. It's about being able to withstand all the stuff that goes with it. And there isn't any of that at Leverkusen, really. It's very, very different. And so there was no real way of estimating how he would cope when he got to Real Madrid.
- [27:51]
Ayo Akimolere
Demott, how different is it to get a group of players at Leverkusen to buy into your vision? As opposed to Real Madrid, for instance, a group of players who have won the Champions League maybe only two years ago.
- [28:03]
Dermot Corrigan
I would say Madrid is maybe the most difficult club in the world for somebody to come in and do that type of thing. Even around the other super clubs, at Paris Saint Germain or at Manchester City, Arsenal, they've kind of come around to the idea that they need to give the coach time in order to work sustainably, to put in place structures to get the team playing well, to bring players through. Even somebody like Paris Saint Germain have decided that Madrid are almost like a romantic holdout for the old style of how things used to work, where it is a case of putting the best players in the world together and the coaches there. It's the coach's job to get them to gel and get them to play, play well. And it's very difficult to do in modern football. It's even more difficult, I think, to do now than it was 10 or 20 years ago because of the calendar, because of the way that players are, because of the way the game has evolved, that it's like counter pressing is so important now, team organization is so important. Collective work is more important than individual skills compared to 10 or 15 years ago, I think. All of which makes it even more difficult for Alonso to do his job, which I think I keep repeating throughout this podcast. But it is the case.
- [29:05]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
One of the things that's interesting to me, because Damas just mentioned it there, is that obviously, Real Madrid, this idea of putting all the best players in the world in the same place, how many of those Real Madrid players would someone consider to be among the best players in the world now? Obviously, this is the idea. Yes. Mbappe Vinicius, junior, Bellingham. Sure. In the midfield. Couple of them have a role in the conversation, I guess. Defenders? Nope, not for me, I don't think. I don't think I'm being harsh.
- [29:33]
Ayo Akimolere
Militao fit? No. Would you not say.
- [29:35]
Dermot Corrigan
Yeah, among them?
- [29:36]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Among them, definitely. Buen fit. But then I think I think of him as being quite a brittle player now as a result of his injuries. Courtois, certainly one of the best goalkeepers in the world, but it's not Galactico era Real Madrid anymore. Like, it's kind of a weird thing where you've got these egos, but you don't necessarily have quite the same supply of ability that you used to. I don't know if that's fair or that's just a.
- [29:55]
Dermot Corrigan
No, no. I think that's super interesting thing to say and especially to get the perspective of somebody coming from. From outside Spain, because it's not something that you hear around the Bernab, and especially it's not something that, you know, people are telling Florentino you're not signing great players anymore. And Madrid don't have the money that they had definitely in Florentino's first spell when they were, you know, splashing world record fees on Figo and Zidane and Ronaldo. And in a way, it's better not to be doing that, that they have made big bets on people like Vinicius and Tchouameni and Camavinga and Militao more recently on Heussen and Carreras Masantuano last summer. Huge money spent on, on young players. It's their way of competing with the state owned clubs, with the Premier League. But yeah, it's, it's a contradiction for sure. It's. They're trying to still be the same Galactico idea while not having the money to spend on the Galactico guys. And if you go into the Madrid racing room, I'm pretty sure that there are lots of people in there who think that they are among the best players in the world. You know, Vinicius reaction to not winning the Ballon d' Or a couple of years ago. Now he's looking for a huge contract to be on Cristiano Ronaldo style wages. Has he the body of work behind him to, to ask for that? Maybe not, but he feels that he is it and as he's won two champions leagues as well. So, you know, it's, it's just a super interesting situation.
- [31:14]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
I just in terms of kind of the difference in dynamics between Leverkusen and Real Madrid, maybe one of them is the simplicity of the executive structure. So at Leverkusen, Alonso was very, very close to Simon Roelfus and Fernando Caro, that's the, the chief executive for sport and the CEO respectively. Now there was nothing in between them. And also in terms of kind of the club's direction, the kind of the footballing conversations would have always been held with Rolfers, who is an ex player, very, very experienced ex player. And Caro Caro is a businessman. And Fernando Caro be the first to admit he's not really a football person, but he doesn't really pretend to be either, which is a great strength of his. Whereas the dynamics at Real Madrid are obviously Florentino Perez, which is a very different figure to anything that Alonso would have experienced as a coach. Of course he is a former Real Madrid player, so knows Florentino Press extremely well, I'm sure, but not the same at all in terms of your working environment.
- [32:06]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. And I think there's something really fascinating and Thierry Henry brought this up recently on the show on Paramount, is that. And I don't want to do the Barcelona, Real Madrid thing here, Thomas, but like even with Barcelona through thick and thin, there is still a philosophy there, there's an idea. So whatever coach comes in, they have to fit around this philosophy and idea where Real Madrid to a certain degree, as we talked about the Galactico era, throw the best players on the pitch, let's see what they can do. That can be quite hard to be sustainable for a long period of time.
- [32:35]
Thomas Hill
Yeah, agreed. And you see that even with, you know, the. The greatest Champions League winning teams of. Of recent years under Zidane, that wasn't exactly a project, that wasn't kind of young players blossoming into something brilliant. Right. It was just very established star players led by Cristiano Ronaldo, winning a lot of trophies, which was thrilling in its own way. And Madrid fans love that period, obviously. But, yeah, it's different to what Barcelona do with the academy, with kind of project managers, I think, again, coming back to that word, who have a lot more time, I think. Yeah, Alonso is one of those project managers, you could argue, as a former Real Madrid player, should he have been aware of all those kind of politics behind the scenes? But I also think it's totally different to be one of the players in the Madrid dressing room who, as Dermot has written previously, you know, do kind of rule the roost, even with their kind of commercial activities outside of the club's remit. It's very different being one of one of those players to being the guy in charge of it, trying to bring it all together. Alonso played under two incredibly different Madrid managers in Mourinho. One of the most divisive times in the club's recent history, with lots of players falling out with him, and Ancelotti, who is the exact opposite. So maybe he's kind of trying to tread a line between those two. I don't think his time there has been anywhere near as divisive as Mourinho. He certainly hasn't been acting like that in the press room. But it's just interesting the influences that he's had and how that's probably impacted his way of seeing things. But I think it's a little unfair to suggest that just because he was a former Madrid player, he should be used to the way of working. I'm sure it's something totally different once you get behind that microphone and you're in front of loads of reporters and you're under that kind of scrutiny, particularly having come from a club like Leverkusen where. Where you just don't have that.
- [34:16]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, good point. And, Seb, after seeing him at Leverkusen, are you surprised he. He chose to go into the fire pit that is Real Madrid, because, as any ambitious coach manager would. Would probably say, you want to test yourself at the highest level, and this is one of the highest if not.
- [34:33]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
The highest, pretty hard to say no. Iu. Right. I'm not surprised because it was always in the wind. This was always a conversation around Alonso as soon as things started to go well at Leverkusen after the first full season when he won the undefeated double. Yes, there was conversations about Liverpool in there as well and Bayern Munich, but Real Madrid was always there and he would be asked about it periodically and Alonso would, would get quite coy about it and forget some of his German, you know.
- [35:03]
But then also remember this because I was just listening to what Thomas said there and the media handling in Leverkusen is really interesting. They were very protective of him. There was no like one on one interviews. There's no access really. It was just press conferences and they were very well marshaled by Valesco Homburg. And there was never really the opportunity to kind of pry and prod in the way that. Look, I've never worked in Spanish football, but the way it comes across is quite sort of Wild Westy in comparison to sort of the average Bundesliga press conference and the Bundesliga media environment. So it was never, it was never such an issue. But at the same time he was never really being conditioned for it. Then I suppose the way to properly answer your question is where do you go? So if you're a Leverkusen and you succeed in the way that he does, you really have three options and they existed for him. Bayern Munich, Liverpool, Real Madrid. Now those are all different types of fire, right? It's different, but it's kind of also the same because it's very exacting. I mean, look what's happened here to Arne Slot. Of course, we're well aware of what's going on at Liverpool at the moment. Bayern Munich. Vincent Kompany is leading a very successful period at the moment. For a while, quite difficult. Look at the difficulties that Thomas Tuchel had, Julian Nagelsmann had. These are very, very high quality, experienced coaches. There was no easy option. He wasn't going to make a sideways move. He was never going to leave Leverkusen to go and manage Borussia Dortmund. He was never going to go to Villarreal. Like there's only one direction, really.
- [36:25]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, appreciate your time as always and I'm sure we'll catch up with you very soon. Again, when we are talking Xavi Alonso.
- [36:38]
Dermot Corrigan
When you're a forward thinker, you don't.
- [36:40]
Ayo Akimolere
Just bring your A game, you bring your AI game.
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Dermot Corrigan
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Thomas Hill
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Ayo Akimolere
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Thomas Hill
Right, remember, the machine knows if you're lying.
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Dermot Corrigan
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Seb Stafford-Bloor
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Thomas Hill
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Ayo Akimolere
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Thomas Hill
Actually, you can sell your car in minutes.
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Ayo Akimolere
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Seb Stafford-Bloor
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Dermot Corrigan
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Seb Stafford-Bloor
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Dermot Corrigan
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Thomas Hill
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Dermot Corrigan
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Thomas Hill
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- [38:38]
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Aya Akimolere.
- [38:41]
Ayo Akimolere
Well, let's make a quick comparison, because this time last year, Real Madrid were two points off. Barcelona had uncertainty hanging over the head coach. And in a defensive injury crisis, let's look to this season, they're four points off Barcelona. There's uncertainty over the coach once again and have defensive injury crises again. You know where I'm going with this one. Does sacking Alonso actually fix any of these problems, Thomas?
- [39:07]
Thomas Hill
No, I'm not sure it does. Apart from, you know, placating some of those players who may be dissatisfied with his methods. Really? You'll still have the same issues in terms of injuries. Arguably, there was this big overhaul of the medical department in the summer, but those injuries have kept happening. You know, that's, that's possibly down to the schedule and, and bad Luck, but that's not going to go away with. With any new manager. The defense is still shaky, needs time to bed in. I'm not sure those players are going to have any more of that time under whoever Alonso's predecessor is if, if he is replaced and look at the names who could come in. I think apart from Zidane. Is anybody really guaranteeing you a trophy this. This season? I'm not sure. So it kind of depends what Madrid want, if they want to build something for the future. I think you keep Alonso in place and allow him more than six months to impose his methods if you want instant success. I'm not sure you're going to get that either with. With the names that are being touted at the moment.
- [40:00]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. Can we just talk about some of the factors as well affecting him being able to be at full strength with this squad? You know, you talk about the injuries to Militao, top, top defender. Trent's been injured, cover Hall's also been injured leader in this in the squad. You look at the suspensions, there's a. Than just Jabby Alonso not getting on with the players here, isn't there?
- [40:19]
Dermot Corrigan
For sure. Like the defensive injuries has been. Was a disaster for Ancelotti last year and it's been really difficult for Alonso so far this season. And it points towards the club's transfer policy over the last couple of years. Like they went for Rudiger and Alaba, who were both signed, you know, in their mid to late twenties at least Alba was a little bit older as guys who were experienced internationals, who were available on free transfers, that's always going to have an end date. And I think we've seen with Alaba, it's definitely. He's been hanging around the squad, earning his wages, part of the salary bill without really being able to contribute for a couple of seasons now. And Rudiger is getting towards a similar point where he has played through injury a lot of last season, which affected his performances as well. And this year hasn't been up to the standard that he set. Maybe two or three years ago they signed Heussen, who was supposed to be. Who is a really good player, looked really good prospect. He's had his injury issues as well. He's been out, he's due back quite soon, but he still hasn't come back. And Militao was the huge one because he's. As we said before, he's the guy who is coming towards the peak of his career. He's physically, he's really. When he's Fit. He's a. He's a super defender. He's really aggressive, he's really intense. He's built experience over the last couple of years as well. And this is supposed to be the time when he's the leader of the defence. So that injury to him against Celta Vigo last weekend was just cruel and it really hit the team. Alonso after the game and some of the players after the game said that that was one of the factors why they lost the game, because he's only just getting back. Had been brilliant against Atlantic Bilbao a couple of days before when they got the win. That seemed to have set things right for them again at Atlantic Bilbao. Then he gets injured early in the game against Celta and the wheels come off completely in the fullback positions. They have signed Trent, Alexander, Arnold. They signed Carreras as well, but I'm not sure they have really top quality guys there. Or at least Trent hasn't shown it yet at Madrid. Carreras is still settling in. That goes back to the transfer policy in the club as well. Ancelotti was looking for more defenders for the last two or three years at the club, but he didn't get them. So Alonso has to deal with the cards that he's dealt and when a lot of those cards are unavailable for whether it's suspensions or whether it's injuries, it's trouble. And that builds up to the Alves game at the weekend. Both their left backs got sent off against Celta last week, so they're not going to be there. He's going to have to rely on Asensio and Ruder again. Valverde is going to have to fill in at right back, which he doesn't really like doing. So, yeah, defense is going to be the big thing to look out for at the weekend.
- [42:39]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. How big is that game against Alaves, Thomas? Is it make or break or. Let's just wait and see.
- [42:45]
Thomas Hill
I think certainly from what Mario's reported, you know, there would be serious alarm bells if. If they lost that Alaves 11th. I don't think Caldet, their manager, has. Has won against Madrid in any of his attempts against them. So, yeah, that. I mean, that would be a big shock, full stop. And I think it would be totally fair for Alonso's position to again be in jeopardy after that if. If we know it's already been in jeopardy this week. But yeah, I'm not sure, as we said, that much is gained by sacking him. I'm just not sure what that achieves and how it fixes as we said the long term issues at play. I think Mario's reported that it's unclear whether a move for Zidane could happen. Arboloa is the other name kind of being reported. He's Castilla manager, a former teammate of Alonso's obviously who played under Mourinho and Ancelotti. But yeah, neither of those two names fully convince me for for different reasons.
- [43:36]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, well let's leave it there gents. I appreciate your time. Dermot Thomas and also Sep who joined us earlier and also thank you guys for joining us as well. We'll be back soon.
- [43:47]
Thomas Hill
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabre and Jay Beal.
- [43:52]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Executive producers are Abby Patterson and Abby Moorhead.
- [43:55]
Thomas Hill
To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
- [44:23]
Dermot Corrigan
When you're a forward thinker, you don't.
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Ayo Akimolere
Just bring your A game, you bring your AI game.
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Dermot Corrigan
Workday is the AI platform that transforms.
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Thomas Hill
The way you manage your people, money.
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Dermot Corrigan
And agents so you can transform tomorrow.
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Thomas Hill
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Ayo Akimolere
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Hi, this is Joe from Vanta. In today's digital world, compliance regulations are changing constantly and earning customer trust has never mattered more. Vanta helps companies get compliant fast and.
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Ayo Akimolere
Stay secure with the most advanced AI.
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Thomas Hill
Automation and continuous monitoring out there. So whether you're a startup going for your first SoC2 or ISO 27001 or a growing enterprise managing vendor risk. Vanta makes it quick, easy, and scalable. And I'm not just saying that because I work here. Get started@vanta.com dashing through the store, Dave's.
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Dermot Corrigan
Looking for a gift. One you can't ignore. But not the socks he picked.
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I know. I'm putting them back.
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Seb Stafford-Bloor
Oh, scratchers.
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Dermot Corrigan
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Thomas Hill
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