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- [00:01]
Sponsor Announcer
Today's episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. As a small business owner, you don't have the luxury of clocking out early. Your business is on your mind 24. 7. That is definitely true for us over here. Sometimes 25. 7 it feels like. So when you're hiring, you need a partner that grinds just as hard as you do. That hiring partner is LinkedIn Jobs. When you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in. LinkedIn makes it easy to post your job for free, share it with your network, and get qualified candidates that you can manage all in one place. Here's how it works. LinkedIn helps you write job descriptions and then quickly get your job in front of the right people with deep candidate insights. You can either post your job for free or pay to promote. Promoted jobs do get about three times more qualified applicants, but that means you're getting qualified candidates. And at the end of the day, the most important thing to your small business is the quality of candidates. And with LinkedIn, you can feel confident that you're getting the best. Because based on LinkedIn data, 72% of small businesses using LinkedIn say that LinkedIn helps them find high quality candidates. So find out why more than 2.5 million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring today. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com TSS that's LinkedIn.com TSS to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.
- [01:20]
Jordan Campbell
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- [01:51]
Art De Rocher
Acast powers the world's best podcasts.
- [01:55]
Jordan Campbell
Here's a show that we recommend.
- [01:59]
Art De Rocher
Hey guys. We have an exciting announcement about our podcast.
- [02:02]
Kim Holderness
For the past seven years, the Holderness Family Podcast has been the most favorite thing we do.
- [02:07]
Art De Rocher
We love getting to talk to experts. We love having meaningful conversations just the two of us. And we also love hearing from you.
- [02:12]
Kim Holderness
But the thing we love most is being a place where you can laugh.
- [02:16]
Art De Rocher
A lot has changed in the last seven years and we feel very lucky that our audience is growing older with us.
- [02:22]
Kim Holderness
So in the spirit of that, we are relaunching our podcast. We are excited to introduce Laugh Lines with Kim and Penn Holderness.
- [02:29]
Jordan Campbell
The Laugh Lines podcast will be all.
- [02:31]
Art De Rocher
About aging together better and also being able to laugh about getting older.
- [02:36]
Kim Holderness
We hope you'll join us. Search Laugh Lines with Kim and Penn Holderness New episodes every Tuesday.
- [02:44]
Art De Rocher
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.
- [02:55]
Ayo Akimolere
The Athletic Miguel Arteta takes charge of Arsenal's first Champions League quarter final in 14 years on Tuesday night. Top of the Premier League and with the opportunity to make a serious statement in Europe. How has Arteta revived this Arsenal side? And with Jurgen Klopp leaving and Pep Guardiola's long term Manchester City future uncertain, is he ready to build a dynasty in North London? I'm Ayo Akimolere. Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast. Okay, joining me today we have the Athletics Arsenal writers Art Da Rocher and Jordan Campbell as well. Let's just talk about some of the stats Arsenal in the Premier League in 2024 are 11 games, 10 wins, five 38 goals scored, four goals conceded. Brighton was the fifth consecutive Premier League away clean sheet for the first time since April 1997 and Arsenal have now kept more away clean sheets in their last five Premier League games. That's five of them than any other side has kept away from home all season. Jordan, is this all by design? Is it Arteta or is there more to it than that?
- [04:14]
Art De Rocher
I mean, I think the way that he's built on last year, you know, there's a lot of people thinking can they really go again and reach that level just before Christmas, you're thinking they might struggle to reach that points total. But They've just gone 10 games unbeaten though. I think it's the longest Premier League unbeaten run under Arteta. So something's clicked and I think something solidified in the team. So you look at Arsenal's team now and you, you just don't see them conceding. I mean we talk about them going forward since Christmas, it's been great, but they've just got this way to control games even if they're not playing the fluid bass that they just don't concede by chances. Even Man City and Liverpool have left them behind and I think going down the home straight, that's why personally I've got so much confidence in this Arsenal team because compared to last season you've not got that fluctuation where every game a bit like Liverpool. This year, everything's a roller coaster, everything's emotional and I think Arsenal have just taken the stress out of games and just taking them off one by one without any real. Any real stress, any real drama. So I think they've got plenty in the tank because of that.
- [05:13]
Ayo Akimolere
Just before we started recording the pod, we were talking about David Raya, Havertz. To be able to get something out of Kai Havertz in a way that he's outscoring his time than he was at Chelsea. And David Raya offering that defensive solidity, there's a sort of ruthlessness here which we will go into in a second of. Actually, previous personnel didn't fit what I want. Actually. I'm going to bring the right people in to make sure they are playing my style of football.
- [05:36]
Jordan Campbell
Yeah, I think it's really interesting because some of it is to do with Arteta, of course, he's the manager. And I think you see that more with David Raya, because when you look over the four and a bit years Arteta's been in charge, he started with Bert Leno as his goalkeeper, then upgraded, if we want to call it that, to Aaron Ramsdale, someone who's a bit more suited to what he wanted. But then last summer, people wouldn't really have said Arsenal needed another upgrade, and people wouldn't have thought that David Raya was another upgrade until the last few months. But you see how big that marginal gain has really helped Arsenal. And then with Havertz, I think it's more of a case of. And Arteta spoken about this recently, the players actually deciding how far this team can go because Arteta and Arsenal brought him in to be a midfielder. That was all the talk that was coming out of the club in the summer. But when Arteta speaks about seeing these guys in training, sometimes they actually decide where they play is the way he's put it. And you see that with Havertz, how when he's gone up front throughout the year, I'd say even as early as the community shield, he's made a real impact, much more than when he's played in midfield. And just how he's able to link with certain players, I think has really developed quite naturally. So I'd say definitely it's a mix with these players. Where you see some of it is definitely Arteta's plan. Other sides of it are these players making so much of an impact on Arteta that he has to almost adapt to them in a way.
- [07:10]
Art De Rocher
But I mean, just on that, he's actually, you know, rolled with the punches, because I think there's this perception that Arsenal have got really lucky this year where injuries and the no. 1 out, I mean, that's not really the case if you look at it. But I think Arteta last year almost could not move away from plan. But I think now, if you look at, you know, the evolution of the team, early in the season it looked like his plan was maybe have timber on the left or invert both the fullbacks or invert the right fullback. That went out the window within a month. Then at Christmas times, and Cenko goes out inverts white, he uses Kiwi or as a more functional fullback, and that starts to get the best of Martinelli. And now he just seems to have stuck with Havertz because he realizes that when somebody's in the floor, you sometimes can't interrupt that. And I think he's now, you know, I think he's now at the point where if you were at a big game, which every game, every game is big, whether it's Bayern on Tuesday, whether it's the league game, I think he now knows who he trusts for his big games. And I think the Havertz up front has been, as Art said, like, he's played his way into that role now that I don't think he can actually.
- [08:15]
Ayo Akimolere
Where does this young squad rank then? If we compare it to the great Invincibles, I mean, it's still really early to say, but I think something I would see as a similarity is that it's that sort of do or die attitude, that kind of. You get a sense that this is a team that believes they can win matches. I think there's a similarity there. But this is still a young team, though, Art, do you know what I mean? Is it too early to start making those kind of comparisons? Because defensively they're solid, I'd say potentially.
- [08:42]
Jordan Campbell
But even within that squad, they know, they have the belief. Gabriel Jesus was speaking on Monday ahead of the Bayern Munich game, and he said, these guys aren't kids anymore. Even though Bukayo Saka is only 22 years old, he's been a professional footballer playing at a really high level for about four or five years, which is ridiculous when you think about it. And even beyond that, you have players like William Saliba, who's still only 22, 23 years old. And when you just look at where the trajectory of the squad has gone, it's been very natural as well. So I don't think it's a bad shout. I would also say when you look at Arsenal, since the Invincible squad, they've always kind of had more attacking talent. I'D say when their best season, I would probably say 2007 to around 2010. That era when they were able to get to the Champions League semifinals as well, you had players like Khleb, Nasri Archav and Fabregas Rziski as well. But then you looked at the back half of the team and you had William Gallas, Cinderos, these kind of guys, I'm not meaning to disrespect them, but now you're looking at Saliba Gabriel and Ben White had included that as well. And you just see so much more steel across the whole team.
- [10:05]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, I like that steel. Something I've always been interested in, Jordan, is where managers come from, you know, the impact their journeys had on their career and players as well. And I think for a lot of managers that aren't English, you get this sense that they travel a lot. And Arteta, if you look at him, and I know you've written about it, this sort of cultural makeup of his, you know, from Spain to France to Scotland, England as well, do you think this has contributed to the style of play and the person we see in front of us today?
- [10:37]
Art De Rocher
Definitely. I mean, I asked him about this last week and he was saying, you know, that's what he's tried to do is try to pick little bits from every manager, every culture, and try to blend it together to make it his own. And I know think you're at a point where, you know, there's always comparisons with Pep and Man City, but I think if you look at the two teams this season, you can see that there is divergence. They're not similarities, but they're not nowhere near the exact same carbon copy of each other. So I think he's now built a sort of Arsenal way, if you want to call it that. I don't like to talk about that, but I think, you know, Arsenal are now identifiable in the way they play. But, yeah, as we say, it's always the sort of pep school of thought. But I think if you dig into Arteta himself, you know, people underestimate the drive this guy's got, how obsessive he is and wanting to learn and wanting to be better. You don't get that if you are just repeating or copying what someone has told you to do. You know, he'll have formulated these ideas in football since he was growing up in San Sebastian or he was at La Masia. But I think if you look at the character to go to PSG to decide, I'm not going to get in here at Barcelona Just because there's so many top, top players. I'm going to go to psg, makes himself integral part of the team there. Then he goes to Rangers. 18, 19 years old, barely speaks English, goes into the hotbed of football when a lot of people can, even if you're a great player, can just sink in that environment and ends his first season by taking the penalty to win to basically seal the league on the last minute of the season. So yeah, I think if you look at that, those sort of early steps but then you've. And under David Moyes as well. And I think when you look at Arteta, people forget or maybe underestimate how much his football identity and how he thinks of football is about stopping the opposition. You know, I think we all almost think this idealistic is all about pretty build up play. But he's spent the majority his career in British football and British changing rooms. So that's bound to have affected the way he thinks in the way that he thinks best to play against a variety of teams. So yeah, I think style one thing and then character. All of the cities he's been have got a very, very sort of unique identity. Whether it's like Basque independence, Catalonian independence. The author of Derby Derby, there's everything the Scouse not English. You know, this is a guy who like does not go to easy places. So I think, you know, the fact that he took Arsenal and when they had quite a bad time, you know, people like maybe shocked. But I think if you look, you're like this guy does not shock away from a challenge.
- [13:05]
Ayo Akimolere
I like that, I like that. And I guess there are some similarities here between, you know, a lot of the other coaches from the Basque region. I was talking to Iriola recently at Bournemouth and he was talking about having to leave Spain to taste something new. And I think he played in New York under Patrick Vieira at the time. But I think Lampard was there and Pirlo was there and he was, he's like, I can't even tell you just how much you learn from these players and. But I needed, I know I needed to leave home to get this greater sense of football. We've seen it with Xabi Alonso, we've seen it with Unai Emery as well. Now I just want to bring this back to his style, style of play because Jordan just mentioned there all the different places he's been to. But then we look at the managers. He's also been under David Moyes, Arsene Wenger, obviously Pep Guardiola. This isn't Manchester City Part 2 this is Arteta football. And do you think those managers have really contributed into the football we see today?
- [14:00]
Jordan Campbell
Definitely. He has spoken quite a few times about when he first started thinking about management properly. And the moment he goes to is when he snapped his ACL at Everton. So he was under David Moyes at the time. And I think for me, when you saw, I guess, the early stages of Arteta at Arsenal, a lot of it was about how do you stop the opponent? And word he actually prefers is dominance. He prefers that than control because it is all about almost suffocating the opposition team and making sure you almost have them in a chokehold for 90 minutes, which Arsenal are able to do quite regularly now. And I think one other thing that contributes to that is the makeup of the team. When you see the teams David Moyes had, they were always very big. And I think with Arteta's first few signings you saw, I guess the theory his first sign in was Pablo Mari, that obviously didn't go to plan, but in theory it was a tall centre back who was left footed. So you had maybe a bit of Moyes thinking, but also the balance of Johan Cruyff, who he also admits was one of his biggest influences when he was at La Masia then that didn't quite work. So his next big signing was Gabriel. That was the first, I guess, major signing made by Arteta at Arsenal. And I think it's probably one of the most important ones because he wasn't just someone who worked in Fury, but has worked really well in practice as well. And I think his influence has grown year on year at the club. And he's a real example of, I guess, how far this Arsenal team has been able to come. Because I don't think a lot of people outside of Arsenal realized how good he was until he's been as consistent as he is now, where maybe in the outside world he's finally now getting the praise he deserves.
- [15:57]
Ayo Akimolere
Do we see the elements of Pep then though? And we talk about recruitment yet again in terms of having players that are interchangeable in different positions as well?
- [16:07]
Art De Rocher
Yeah, definitely. I mean, he's only still used 25 players. Last year it was 26. So he does like a tight squad that is similar to Pep Guardiola. Despite Man City's, you know, riches, they still like a tight squad this season. They've made 58 changes from starting 11 to starting 11. So there is definitely a little bit more rotation going on than last year when it was 38 and 38 games, literally an average of one every single game. But I think if you look at the recruitment, 10 of the squad now have been signed from fellow Premier League clubs. And I think that's Arteta learned over the course of the years is that adaptability and it maybe takes a couple of years for players to adapt to the pace and the relentlessness of the Premier League. So I think that's definitely one bit. But when was at City, I was told that there was quite a key moment at the end of his first season, Guardiola, where there was some internal research done on how to build sort of dominant teams that compete on multiple fronts every single year, year and year out, without dipping. And there was some magic formula maybe concocted. But Arteta was instrumental in getting Pep to buy into that because I think Arteta is a little bit younger than Pep, maybe a bit more open minded to certain things and bringing the whole club together. So that will definitely be something that he's probably taking with him, elements of that to Arsenal in terms of building a squad. But you're now at the point where you've got that interchangeability, you've got that age profile, you've got them all signed up under multi year contracts and you're looking at it thinking there's not a lot needing to change there. It's literally just one or two little bits. If you look at the spending during his time, he spent double what he has on defenders and defensive midfielders. Then he has an attack midfielders, wingers and strikers combined. So he's very much like a sort of fundamentals first, which maybe he gets from Moyes.
- [17:50]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, I like that. Where do we see the Wenger similarities then with Arteta?
- [17:55]
Jordan Campbell
For me, I see it when obviously when they attack and we probably haven't seen it properly for about a year because again, something Gabriel Jesus mentioned was this year Arsenal are probably playing the football they played in the first half of last season now. So it's almost the reverse, if that makes sense. And when I guess Arsenal were mounting that title charge last year, a lot of the talk was about how they're copying Manchester City, but all their attack in play was so fluid that it reminded me of those Wenger teams of the early Emirates era. I'd say with so much rotation in that final third you had Gabriel Jesus as a nine pulling out to the left very naturally. And then they almost doubled down on that with Trossard. And we've seen how that's really worked for them this season, whether it be with him dovetailing with Havertz or coming in off the left a bit more. So I think that freedom that their attackers are afforded to just move is a big, big Wengerism because with Wenger he had those players I mentioned earlier, Hleb, Rziski, Nasri, they were central midfielders playing out wide with the ability to come in. And I think having technical players, you see it with Trossard and Odegaard now, technical ability is probably the biggest factor that Arteta looks for as well in a player and I think that's the real Wenger stamp of an Arsenal team that are able to play in a way that's identifiable with Arsenal. Hello everyone, it's Ian Stone, host of Handbrake off the Arsenal Podcast, brought to you by the Athletic. Well, we're in the home straight of the season, so to keep up with all the goings on during the running, join me Amy Lawrence, James McNicholas, Adrian Clarke and Art D'Roche twice a week as we chart what we all hope will be a memorable end to the campaign. Listen for free wherever you usually get your podcasts.
- [20:05]
Sponsor Announcer
Today's episode is brought to you by Shopify, who know very well that when you're starting something new, it seems like that to do list can just keep on growing. When we started this very podcast, we had to figure out all on our own how to get the show on the air, how to set topics, do the research, find sponsors, learn how to grow the audience. And that was all without even launching an online store or selling any merchandise. So finding the right tool to help simplify that to do list and streamline things and get things done can be a game changer for millions of businesses. That game changing tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all E commerce in the United States from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started with hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style. It is packed with helpful AI tools to help with content creation that is going to help you write product descriptions, page headlines and even enhance your product product photography. You can get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you even if you don't. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. So if you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start saving selling today at shopify.com TSS go to shopify.com TSS one more time shopify.com TSS.
- [21:44]
Amy Lawrence
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- [22:20]
Sponsor Announcer
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- [22:23]
Art De Rocher
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- [22:39]
Jordan Campbell
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akinwaleere.
- [22:43]
Ayo Akimolere
As we're talking Arsene Wenger, we're gonna hear from the Athletic's Amy Lawrence on how Arsenal's structure right now compares to during the Wenger era.
- [22:52]
Kim Holderness
In comparing how Arsenal operate now with Arteta to the Arsene Wenger era, the most significant and important thing is to recognise that when Arsene Wenger was at the club, there were really two clearly defined almost halves of that tenure with quite different flavours and essentially different structures. So it's important to note that Arteta and Arsenal now resonate and remind us more of the first period of Wenger when Arsenal was successful. So going back to that time, Arsene had a very, very strong working relationship with David Dean, who was the vice chairman, who essentially ran the business side of the club, and behind that there was a pretty solid board that had been there for a long time and, you know, were Arsenal orientated people and the club was considered to be very well run and the relationships and the trust were super strong, particularly where Wenger and Dean are concerned and those relationships between manager and club are critical. So the second half of the Wenger era that changed the ownership structure, I was messy. There was a power struggle at the top between the Kroenkes and Usmanov who was trying to get involved with Arsenal. Ivan Gazedis ran the club and if you would maybe have this image of Arsene Wenger and David Dean of being like, so connected, almost blood brothers. It was very much not the case when it came to Wenger and Gazedis. They were not really seeing eye to eye a lot of the time and that trust was not there. And hence when you have a base and a foundation that has not got positivity around it, it's really hard to be successful. So if you look at Arsenal now and that trust between Arteta and particularly Edu on the football side, but also Josh Kroenke representing the board or the senior leadership team are very, very strongly bonded. They all seem to be sharing the same ideas, the same philosophies, which, again, echoes of the Wengerdin environment. I think it was a big moment in the way that Arsenal restructured and saw Arteta when they made him manager. Remember, when he first joined the club, he was head coach and in fact, part of the restructuring vision led by Ivan Gazedis was that they would get rid of this idea of an. An overarching manager who had a say beyond just the first team. And Wenger was notable for having that real big impact on every little thing that was going on around the club. And in the end, that became difficult in the second half of his reign because there was too much going on and there was too much friction between different departments, if you like, and things weren't functioning very well. But Arteta made it pretty clear pretty quickly to the powers that be that he needed to have that more overarching, broad brush to his influence at the club. And since then, things have gone from strength to strength. So when you trust that person to have the big ideas, people around that person will go that extra mile to follow those ideas and that's when you've got a chance of something great happening.
- [26:12]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. You can hear more from Amy on the Athletics dedicated Arsenal podcast, Handbrake Off. As Amy just said, you know, it all comes down to relationships, really. One of the things she touched on was Arteta going from head coach to manager. I think it was after the FA cup, wasn't it? After the FA cup win. When was that period?
- [26:32]
Jordan Campbell
Yeah. So as Amy mentioned, it happened, I think about eight months after he came in. So he was appointed in December 2019 and then by August 2020 he was changed to manager. And I think that one shows how intent he was on making it his Arsenal. And you see that with Edu, he was able to click very quickly and have so much authority in those signings that it was very much his vision. So the left foot centre back, Mari and Gabriel, I think is the cornerstone of that. But then and beyond that, the whole structure of Arsenal, in a backroom sense changed as well, because he had Raul son Leahy as the head of football there at the time. He actually left within a week or so of Mikel Arteta becoming manager. And the recruitment very much became Arteta and Edu, rather than it being a head of football buying a player for a head coach to just manage or to deal with on the grass. So now, whenever Arteta talks about his signings, he doesn't say it's my signing, he often says it's our signing. The club signing, which obviously you don't get at every club, where sometimes managers or head coaches more specifically will just have to deal with a signing they may not particularly agree with and have to maybe fit a square peg in a round hole, for instance. Whereas now, for the past coming up to four years in August that he's been manager, I think that long term thinking, you could see it in all of the signings and the recruitment that has been made because it's very much, I guess the importance is put on attributes as well, rather than just positions. And that's where you get the interchangeability that yourself and Jordan were speaking about earlier.
- [28:25]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, Jordan, just thinking about that symbiotic relationship between top managers and the club and actually by promoting Arteta to manager from head coach shows a lot of faith from the club in what they're seeing right there in front of them.
- [28:39]
Art De Rocher
Yeah, no, it does. And I think he's repaid that already. I think it's often a difficult subject. You know, what is the right way to do it? Do you have a director of football who, you know, makes sure that there's no cliff edge when one manager leaves? But I think that's the holy grail that every club is still probably searching for is how do you have a Pep or a Klopp or a Sir Alex or an Arteta? How do you become serial winners and then continue being serial winners when they've left? Because it's difficult not to. If you get someone like Arteta, who is so all encumbrancing, is so energetic and wants to know everything, every single department. How can you not give him that sort of overview if you're really investing in him and letting him shape the club. How do you do that, though? Well, then preserving what he's. He's built. So I think that's the really difficult thing because I think he's got his fingerprints in so many different parts of the club that it will be a test when he leaves. But I mean, even look at Pep Guardiola. I don't think everyone inside CFG thinks that they are maybe as prepared, they maybe want to be better prepared for when he left. And maybe they all know because they've obviously got a network of clubs where they're trying to hone their own coaches, but there's not really a ready made one to come right in. So I think everyone's wrestling with it.
- [29:51]
Jordan Campbell
I think also a big contribution to why he was able to survive is that change to manager. We have to remember it's not been an easy four years, especially the first two when in, I think it was his first full season, they went almost two months without a Premier League win. And internally there wasn't really any sense of him being on the way out. And I think a big reason for that was how all encompassing he is and how I guess tunnel visioned in a way he can be in what he wants. And having made that shift just a few weeks or months prior to manager, I don't think they would have just ripped that up at the, I guess, Christmas of the next season.
- [30:40]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. How important is it that you know, you've got this faith from the Kroenkes? You get a sense that they've backed him with money, but also this ability to sort of manage up and down, you know, how important is that for a top, top coach at a big club? Club.
- [30:54]
Art De Rocher
Someone said to me, like, managing a top football club is like being president, like a small country. So like, you've got to have that, you've always got to be a politician, you've got to have that political nose to manage relationships and a bring people with you, whether it's above you or the people that you're in charge of. Every department across the board. But you've also got to be able to sell the vision to those above you that even if it is difficult, they can still see where the journey's going. So I think that's where Arteta internally did well. But yeah, I think he has been very smart at that. He's got himself to a point now where he has got so much power within the club that it's almost his authorities, you know, unquestionable. But I think you look at Edu, you look at Richard Garlick there, these are guys who have now been part of the journey now for years. And you've got that real clubs like to talk about alignment, but you have got that alignment now where they're all young guys, relatively young. Guys who seem to all be on the same page when it comes to recruitment and where they're taking this Arsenal team.
- [31:49]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. As Amy mentioned, are there some similarities here between the Davidine era and Wenger and Edu and Arteta? Because Jordan just spoken about that alignment in terms of policies, in terms of having someone on your side. Do we see that alignment here at Arsenal with Arteta at the helm of it?
- [32:05]
Jordan Campbell
Yeah, it's definitely got similarities, I'd say. And what makes that really important is there aren't too many voices that are able to maybe confuse things. Because when it was, say, the structure before the changes, so when it was Edu as say, director of football with Son Leahy as head of football, I think with that you got maybe muddled plans because different people would maybe think differently about recruitment. For instance, whereas now Arteta and Edu have been able to really fine tune what they want to bring into the side, also how they want to go about it. I don't think it would have been a popular decision, not just outside with fans, but inside the club to pay people to leave like Messe Urs or Pierre Emerick Aubameyang. But when it's just two people that have to make that decision, it probably becomes a lot easier. So I think through the difficult times you're able to see that synergy really, really grow and now it's just about maintaining that. And I think it's a lot easier to do that when it is just two or three people who are really in control of where that football ship goes.
- [33:18]
Art De Rocher
They've streamlined the recruitment team as well, so I think that's probably why you've seen this profile sort of crystallize the last couple of years where as right we're buying ready made players who don't need any time to adapt. With an hour before boarding, there's only one place to go. The Chase Sapphire Lounge by the club. There you can recharge before the big adventure or enjoy a locally inspired dish. You could recline in a comfy chair to catch up on your favorite show or order a craft cocktail at the bar. Whatever you're in the mood for, find the detail that moves you with curated.
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Jordan Campbell
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Jordan Campbell
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- [35:06]
Ayo Akimolere
We see it with Pep, we see it with Klopp that the manager often becomes as big or even not bigger than the club in terms of the decisions that they're making and the power that they have. We talk about, you know, Emery slowly beginning to be that at Aston Villa with the power he wants within the structure. How do you prevent that? Because at some point, as you said, these managers are going to have to leave and then you've got this gulf of the DNA in which they've inputted into the club, but then they're not at the helm of it anymore.
- [35:34]
Art De Rocher
Yeah, and I mean I'm look for being from Glasgow, you know, just coming for covering Rangers. I look at, you know, it's maybe unpopular name he mentioned on an Arsenal podcast, but you look at Ange coming in at Celtic, I think Celtic Rangers are two teams that you can see how quickly things can change. You know, you can go from having no structure whatsoever to then Ange coming in and completely bringing in every basically most players himself and then he leaves two years later and he's not left much structure behind. So again, it's interesting when you've got a, you've got such a big personality because all these guys, they have got an ego. They believe that they know best and you've got to believe that they do. So you've got to almost give them the keys to. There's some, you know, cautionary tales out there and giving managers too much faith. But I take the view that you've got to give them some level of autonomy over transfers to build their team how they like. Because if you don't, what is your identity then? If they're not in charge of identity, then how are you building a long term plan?
- [36:34]
Ayo Akimolere
But then if that identity is so intrinsic to the progress of the club. When they do leave, do you then go, all right, fair enough. We've got another four or five years to try and figure this out because there goes our, you know, our messiah in many respects.
- [36:47]
Jordan Campbell
Well, I think what is really important when you think about the Arteta years is how well Freddie Jungburg actually did to bridge the gap between Emery and Arteta. You had someone who knew Arsenal inside out from his playing days, but also from a coaching perspective. He was actually the one that gave Bukayo Saka his chance at left back because he knew that Saka was able to play there because he coached him as a 15 year old. He was also the one that gave Emile Smith Rowe his first Premier League start. And I think in those three weeks you almost got a hard reset of what Arsenal meant in a footballing sense, which made it, I'm not saying 100% easier for Arteta, but having at least something of a reset probably helped Arteta just focus on what he needed to at the time. So I think when you're looking at succession planning and what happens next after these big managers go, you actually do need someone in there who, who knows what the club is. Because although Unai Emery is a very good coach, he probably didn't understand what Arsenal was and we saw that with how, how often he changed things because he was very much a head coach who would plan for the opposition, whereas Arsenal had never really been a club who's did that. They were always a club who planned to play the way they play. And that's what they do with Arteta. Even if they are very much more defensively astute, they still do it with the intention of being Arsenal rather than, oh, this is X team and we're scared of them. So I think that is a really big factor into it as well. Yeah.
- [38:41]
Ayo Akimolere
Where do we look then? As we're moving forward? We're sort of into phase four and a half of Arteta heading into phase five. And I mean, a lot can still change in the Premier League. Right. Klopp is obviously departing Guardiola. No one quite knows, you know, where he's going to be in a couple of seasons time. But realistically, how long does a club stick with a coach like Arteta if he doesn't bring trophies in to the club?
- [39:05]
Art De Rocher
Well, I mean, if Arsenal don't end up with a trophy this year, I think it will be a big disappointment because of how good they are.
- [39:11]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, it's the Premier League and the Champions League. I mean, these are the biggest trophies in European football.
- [39:17]
Art De Rocher
That's what I mean. Like, it's almost the bar is so high that you need to reach. But there'll be people who say, you know, Arsenal are bottled merchants if they don't do it. But I think if you look, that's two years and a top level form that they've sustained. So I think it's just a matter of time, really. This squad is a really young squad. It'll be together for another three, four, five years, really, with just sort of small changes needed. Maybe someone will dip, maybe it'll be an injury somewhere, but the core of that squad is there to build on. So I look at Artet and I think, how long could it be there? I mean, if Klopp's leaving and Pep's maybe got a year or two left, then you look at Artet and think he is the next sort of super manager in the Premier League that could go on and have five or six years. But I think that is the last stage really, is that is a mentality thing, I think is that it's fine being consistent and being in that sort of that mindset where every game has got to win, got to win, got to win. But then you need to get over the finish line. They've obviously done it in the FA Cup a couple of times, but done it in the community shield. Now, I think the next bit is over the long haul. Can you, when push comes to shove down the, down the home straight or in the last 50 minutes of a knockout tie, have you got that belief that really only starts to really come when you have got over the line once? Is that sort of muscle memory? I think. And I think that is the last bit. It's hard to quantify what that is, but I think when you've got it, you know you've got it. And I think that Arsenal team has now beginning to develop that aura where we're talking about the Invincibles team. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Staring them down in the tunnel, you know, And Arteta said, I've experienced what it's like, that fear you get thinking this is going to be a hard night. And I think that Arsenal team, now, everyone knows that they're very rarely going to have an off day. And even when they have an off day, they've got that structure to fall back on, that they just don't lose easily. So I think that's maybe the last 0.5 or 0.3.
- [41:06]
Ayo Akimolere
Well, it brings it to a point, Brady, because I think, you know, three seasons ago, Arsenal finished fifth in the Premier League. And then you look at the Premier League battle last season, which they dipped off, and then you see another clear progression again this year. I mean, that hasn't taken that long if you think about where Manchester United are right now and what Chelsea are looking like going through at this moment in time. But do you think this is a team that's been built for dominance post the Pep Guardiola era?
- [41:31]
Jordan Campbell
Yeah, I think a big thing with Arsenal is context and trajectory. Over the past three, four years, it has always been steadily increasing. Even if they maybe have disappointed at the end of the season. Two years ago, they finished fifth and that was off the back of an eighth place finish. Then they go and finish second. So I think even if they don't, don't go on and win the league this year, the trajectory is still on an upwards kind of incline, I'd call it. And to what Jordan's talking about and bringing it a bit more full circle in regards to belief, that is something that Mikel Arteta's been speaking about ahead of playing Bayern Munich as well. Needing those magic moments to then just generate that belief for future days. And he said that the Porto game was a really big example of that because Arsenal haven't got to the quarterfinals of a champions league since 2010. Being able to almost break that barrier then almost allows you to think, okay, yeah, we can do that again. So I think going forward, it's not really about putting a ceiling on where you think this Arsenal team can go, because in a way that just limits what you can do. So I think it's really about just. Just enjoying the ride in a way and seeing just. Yeah. Where they can actually go in real time.
- [43:05]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, before we wrap this up, quick questions to the both of you. Hypothetical, but likely to happen over the summer. Arsenal need to buy one player to add to this squad. What position? What's the priority for them, Jordan?
- [43:19]
Art De Rocher
I mean, I know I was just going on about how they can't move Kai Havertz, but. But I think. Let me get to the point of the building process. It's really difficult to look and go. That's a major weakness. You know, I think Timber coming back in probably. Maybe takes over Zinchenko. So my place to look at would be probably that penalty box striker. I still think Arteta has got that ruthless mentality that even if Havertz is the man that gets them over the line to the end of the season, I still think he'll want an out and out. That's a number nine profile. So it would be a number nine for me or someone because I think you also need to really have someone who can cover for Saka and Martinelli, who's a higher level than say Reese Nelson or in Katya. So maybe, maybe if it's not a number nine then I would love somebody like a kudos to who can play right. He can play nine, he can play 10, he can play on the left, can play sort of another four and it really feels like an Arsenal signing who can play across everywhere.
- [44:19]
Jordan Campbell
I'd probably agree on the wide areas as what I'd look for. Just because as Jordan said, if you're able to get to this point without that kind of Proven 9, I think you're okay. Obviously it would be nice to have that, but just looking at the structure of the team, I think it's all about making sure you're ready for when these players pick up Knox and have someone like Trossard who is able to fit in in a couple of positions at a really high level. So I would look to maybe the wide areas to give Martinelli and Saka a bit more. Not I wouldn't say rest, but also to keep them honest in a way.
- [45:02]
Ayo Akimolere
Competition.
- [45:02]
Jordan Campbell
Exactly. So that's probably where I'd look because when you look at how the team's been built, especially by design, most of the defensive areas have been taken care of.
- [45:12]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, brilliant.
- [45:13]
Jordan Campbell
Oh, actually another one.
- [45:14]
Art De Rocher
Look at him, look at him also. He's on a spin.
- [45:18]
Jordan Campbell
I said warden. But also I this is more like long term thinking. But what happens in that number six position will really interest me because of how adaptable Declan Rice has been. Obviously Jorginho has been playing there a lot more recently, but he can't do that forever. So that may be one for next summer.
- [45:42]
Ayo Akimolere
We're still building up.
- [45:43]
Jordan Campbell
We're still building.
- [45:43]
Ayo Akimolere
Jed Stakes. So much for your time, Jordan. And also don't forget to rate and review the podcast. Thank you so much for listening. We're back tomorrow.
- [45:52]
Jordan Campbell
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavro and Jay Beal. The executive producer was Ailey Morehead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC podcast is an athletic media company production.
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Art De Rocher
The Athletic.
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Running a.
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Jordan Campbell
The show that we recommend. Remember blowing into a video game cartridge.
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Art De Rocher
Or taping songs off the radio?
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How about Saturday morning cartoons?
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Art De Rocher
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Jordan Campbell
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Art De Rocher
Yep.
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Jordan Campbell
Up we're Mike Fenoya and Charles McBee.
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Art De Rocher
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Jordan Campbell
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Art De Rocher
Are we old? Podcast right here on acast. ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcast everywhere. Acest. Com.