Carl Anker (3:21)

Yes and no. In that we've, we've seen a series of post Ferguson managers get victory in the derby through really, really strong counter attacking football, really, really strong attacking transitions. But I've never seen that level of front foot domination from a Manchester United team. If you're a fan of XG United finish with 2.27 versus Manchester City 0.45. That's the lowest amount of XG City you've put up in a derby since October 2015. This was. Laurie Whitwell called this a pulverizing. Some other Manchester United fans who are less eloquent or a bit more needly called it a something else. Yeah, that was Man United best foot forward playing with structure, clarity and a purpose that we just haven't seen from United in the last 20 months. Where was this? In Bilbao? Honestly, what fun.

Ayo Akimolere (4:13)

You know, Oli, Alex Ferguson was in the stands and I saw him clapping jubilantly. Obviously Michael Carrick and the dugout and Manchester United were very clinical in attack, some might say back to the old United way. And we had a discussion last week actually on certain clubs sort of relying on nostalgia, relying on the good old days, hence hiring old pros to come back and try and steady the ship. This is kind of case in point in many respects, but maybe there's a little something there. It's especially in this game.

Oli Kay (4:41)

James Horncastle wrote a fantastic piece last week about Manchester United's sort of, I think he was called it retrophilia. Their sort of.

Carl Anker (4:48)

Retrotopia.

Oli Kay (4:49)

Retrotopia. Retrotopia. Their love and their inability to let go of the past. And I get it, I get it. I spoke to, I had a chat with James about it. I said I can understand it. I feel like there is genuinely something important that United really should embrace about the past. And I would say that you could all, rather than criticise them of being too embedded in the past over the 12 years, you could say, and I would say their biggest problem is that they've lost sight of what they are and they've lost sight of what they're meant to be. So sometimes when they turn to Ryan Giggs or Van Nistleroy or Carrick or Solskjaer, that has been a reflex, but it hasn't been the shape of their, of the way they've acted. They've not behaved like Manchester United and had a sort of clear Manchester United's type, vision, identity, DNA over the last 12, 13 years. And I think they need to embrace that. That doesn't have to be with a manager who's played for them before. But I think when you're in a situation that they've got themselves into where they were, changing manager mid season yet again. And if you think, well, we need to work out what we're doing, we need to. If the idea of making an instant appointment of the new long term solution isn't there, why wouldn't you go for somebody who knows the club, who knows the Manchester United way, who can go in and get immediate buy in from the players whom he's coached before? Real Madrid did it last week. Real Madrid do it all the time. I think as a short term option you absolutely would and should go for a Manchester United player rather than a, you know, another Ralf Rangnick say. I feel that there is definitely a positive to that sort of, what do you call it, retrotopia. It's just that you can't just simply believe that you kind of settle into the past, you know, like. Like putting on an old jacket or an old suit and thinking everything will be all right. There has to be a vision behind it. There has to be real kind of ideas and energy and sophistication behind it in order to modernize. But I think there is a value in looking to the past to go forward and I think underlined in the very, very short term on Saturday, it's.

Carl Anker (6:53)

That line of how tradition should be the transmission of fire rather than a veneration of ashes. And I think there have been too many times where a person has gone, yeah, but this is Manchester United or yeah, we are Manchester United. And there was almost this belief in a sort of institutional exceptionalism that Manchester United would be immune to the changes of modern life and the changes of modern football because they're Manchester United and they were very, very successful in the past without properly paying attention to the things that Manchester United were good at. So this idea that say Manchester United's academy was going to be good forever, where funding into the academy slowed down for a bit and then slowly over Time Manchester City and Chelsea caught up, if not outstripped them. And then eventually in the last couple of years, Manchester United went, we're not the best academy in the England anymore, so let's fix this. And now the academy, particularly on the Nick Cox who's since departed and gone over to Everton, they made a real effort to go back to the, what you can say the old methods, which is make sure the Manchester United academy is one of the best academies in the country. And that's the chewy, nougat, nebulous thing about Manchester United is sometimes they go, yeah, with Manchester United without doing the things that made Manchester United special.

Oli Kay (8:06)

Absolutely.

Ayo Akimolere (8:07)

I like that. I like that you mentioned XG earlier, Carl, and you talked about the domination of XG from Manchester United. Possession count though is really interesting. 32% Manchester United, 68% from Manchester City. We go back to the old school again. Was this old school Manchester United not too obsessed with possession, but actually attacking with impetus, you know, with clarity on the ball, wave after wave, dare I say counter attacking from football.

Carl Anker (8:31)

So Pep Guardiola was asked about this after the result and he said it, it doesn't matter the manager. We know Manchester United are very strong in the attacking transition. And when United went to the Etihad in December under Ruben Amrum on 121 last season. Day two, less than 40% possession. Manchester United have beaten Pep Guardio as Manchester City several times by having fewer than 40% possession. And there have been times where it felt more like a smash and grab, whereas this one, it definitely felt more about intent. I mean, and even then, if you. I've been to enough of these press conferences with Manchester United managers and been asked about the possession count. They've been asked about the fact that their teams are particularly better when they don't seem to have too much of the ball. Ruben Amren himself before they played Newcastle on Boxing Day said, I don't want to build up slowly. He said, for me, attacking is a numbers game. If I can get the ball to Seshko in Boomer and Kunya in two passes, then I want to do it in two passes. If you look at Eric Ten Hag before he his final season at Manchester United, he said he wanted to make Manchester United the best transition team in the world. And he said he looked at previous Manchester United teams in the past and he wanted to do something. There was also those series of quotes he said about how Manchester United under Eric Ten Hog, he did not refer to himself in the third person. I'm sorry Eric Ten Hag said that Manchester United under him would not play like Ajax did, which caused some consternation. But he was really trying to say, I'm not going to try and turn Manchester United into a total football principle team. I mean, his IX team wasn't about total football anyway. And this is a really, really interesting moment, not just for Manchester United, I say, but for two or three other teams in the league in that. And Ali has spoken really well about this on social media this weekend about how we are almost seeing a response to Pep Guardiola's influence in England. I think Nottingham Forest last season on a Neuro Spirito Santo where they could get the ball from north to south in fewer than eight seconds. You had players like Alanga, Morgan, Gibbs, White playing really, really, really quick, transitional football and also being very strong in set pieces. We're seeing more teams play like that. And United playing like that against Manchester City worked the challenge for United and Michael Carrick and the coaching staff going forward is what happens, perhaps not necessarily when they play Arsenal on the weekend, but what happens when they're playing at Fulham, a Fulham team that will be go, that will go, okay, you can have the ball. We're going to sit deep. How do you break us down? If you look again, I'm going to take a couple steps back further. Jose Mourinho, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, Erik Ten Hag and Ruben Amory and perhaps to a lesser cent, all had a phase of success at Manchester United where they were playing with a very, very strong in the attacking transition. And they earned results, if not silverware, by being quite lethal in counterattacking football. And then they all had a moment where they went, I need to figure out a way to break down deep defenses and I'm going to do that by buying a football player to help me. Now, for Mourinho, it was, let's go get Alexis Sanchez. And that didn't work for various reasons. And to my mind, Manchester United signing Alexis Sanchez is one of the top five worst signings they've made of the 21st century. For Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, one of their methods for trying to break down deep defenses was to go out in the transfer market and buy Jadon Sancho and Cristiano Ronaldo. Those two players didn't work for two very, very different reasons. For erik10hag, he went out and got Anthony, didn't work. And then also they talked about being a transitional team. So it wasn't just about counterattacks, but also winning the ball up Quite high and having sort of what John McKenzie over at TIFO refers to as microtransitions. And that didn't work because it. Well, Anthony was a complete dud. And also the front three are not very great presses and gaps. Midfield Casemiro was an island, blah blah, blah, blah, blah. So the good maybe news for Michael Carrick is because he's only in charge of 16 matches, he probably won't have that challenge yet in the long term. How you, Michael Carrick might just be able to win enough games by playing a sort of more transitional based version of football and then it will be another manager's role to go. How do you solve Manchester United when they have to start playing with 55% or 60% possession?

Ayo Akimolere (12:41)

Yeah, Oli, football is often about narratives, right. And I wonder how different the narrative would have been if Dallow got sent off after 11 minutes on that challenge on Jeremy Doku.

Oli Kay (12:52)

Well, almost certainly very different. It did feel like a turning point in the game. But I found myself nodding along when Pep Guardiola said something in his post match press conference. He was asked about it and he basically said it wasn't about that. As in Manchester City's performance and defeat on the day wasn't about that. He felt that Manchester United, I think his line was that they had something we didn't have. Sometimes when a manager talks in those terms, you think, oh, he's just talking about a lucky refereeing decision. I don't think he was. I think he was talking about the fight, the spirit, the tenacity, the organisation. Frankly. Manchester United looked more organised, looked more clinical as they played their way through and they defended better. They had a very, very experienced central defensive partnership, Martinez and Magu, both of whom played magnificently, whereas Alain and Kusanov struggled from the start. Maybe a little bit harsh on Alain, but Kusanov in the opening minutes was making a couple of mistakes and I wouldn't blame him at all for Manchester City's defeat. But it looked like Manchester City's central defence was there to be got at and in that situation you need as an opponent to punish them and to expose that vulnerability. And Manchester United did that right from the start. And I felt like it was different for, for the reasons that Carl mentions. It was different to those other games where they've beaten City with a or Liverpool with a. With a low possession count. It felt like it wasn't a smash and grab. It felt like it, it. It really could have been a 4, 0. It could have been a 5 nil. It might reminded me slightly of a game. Do you remember it Karl, when Solskjaer came up against Frank Lampard on the opening of day of 2019 2020.

Carl Anker (14:37)

Yes.

Oli Kay (14:37)

Difference being on that day that Chelsea actually played quite well and I think it was nil, nil at halftime. But United's counterattacking in that game was just fantastic. And it was fantastic on Saturday. It wasn't just a sort of reactive thing. Backs against the wall, we counterattack twice and a half and we have to make the most of it. It was wave after wave of counterattacks, if that makes sense. It was a really, really, really good Manchester United performance and the number of times I've said that over the past decade is incred.

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Ayo Akimolere (16:52)

Let's try and get a sense of I don't know how Manchester United don't get too carried away at this point because Carl in 2019 you might remember well he gone to Solskjaer, won 14 of his 19 games during his Interim spell in charge before getting the job on permanent basis. Ollie, you might know where I'm going with this. So what you reckon Carl? That's it then. Get the contract out, put it on the table, let him sign it, let him write whatever numbers he wants on there. Carrick's at the wheel, he's doing his thing. Manchester United are back.

Carl Anker (17:25)

I will say Michael Carrick gave a typically Michael Carrick post match press conference in that, I mean throughout his playing career he was incredibly understated. He was a man who was known more for playing the pass before the pass rather than doing the showbiz moments. And there's been two or three times we've done the carrot quotes and handed them over and decided oh actually no, he's not really provided the obvious headline in the same way that Ruben Amarin did. He is refreshingly boring. After two or three press conferences from Ruben Amarin and I mean, I mean Ralph Ragnick, he gave you explosive press conference woo. I'd say for Michael Carrick this is way too early to see what's going on. I think he's got a very good, he's got a very interesting coaching team around him. It's not just him, it's. It's Johnny Evans, it's. It's Steve Holland. Steve Holland who achieved to my mind great success with England with Gareth Southgate, two Euros finals and a World cup quarter final in 2022. And I think they set up really, really well for that game. Now the Manchester derby comes with its own unique qualities and Ollie's talked about the, the intensity Manchester United found and also defensive organization. You should extra motivation to run against Manchester City. That will come naturally and especially when you do at Old Trafford. The, the fans are going to respond to you running really hard and you will find ways to keep busting a gut in minute 85 and find ways to do things that perhaps might not be there. And I'm making the gesture in my hand to try and sort of refer to the intangibles of football that might not be there. If you are playing at home against say Fulham for example in a couple of weeks. In a couple of weeks. So that would be, that would be interesting. That'll be a challenge in there. And I mean one thing that always stuck out to me about ole Gunnar Solskjaer's interim period specifically was that team started off so hot, brilliant in that marine the final months of Marino. The football was oh turgid quite frankly. And then interim Oligona Solskjaer very First game against Cardiff city, they went five 1. Wayne Rooney was in doing TV punditry that weekend and he mentioned one of the big differences just in that game alone was the fact that on Mourinho, though too many times a United were attacked with one or two players, Resoligen Social had managed to find a way to get the team to attack with three or four and they just free things up. Now, when you have a team to bring things back to the present day, when you have a team where your best player or most important player is someone like Bruno Fernandes, that means you're going to play in a certain way. Bruno Fernandes wants to play fast. Bruno Fernandes, to nick a line from my good friend Moussa Gwanga, he plays football like he's running downhill. And that means if you give that team space, if you give this Manchester United team space and give the ball to Bruno Fernandes and you give it to enough volume, which very often happens, he's going to create through balls, he's going to hit passes out wide. And if you've got the wide players like Ahmad, who's just returned from afcon, and like Brian and Boomer, who's also returned from afcon, there's going to be opportunities there and there's definitely going to be, I think, an uptick in the way Manchester United attack in open play. I think the fact that Harry Maguire has now returned from injury as well and Casemiro seems to be in a bit of good form means Manchester United are increased set piece presence in both penalty areas, both when they're defending and attacking, and in a Premier League season where Ole again wrote about this this weekend, where more and more teams are drawing games and you're seeing this huge, huge, congested peloton in the middle class. If Manchester United go hell for there and go, you know what, give the ball to Bruno and let's just start playing air raid football, shall we say? There is a very good chance this Manchester United team can finish higher than the Conference League spaces. And then when that happens, if you get that positive groundswell of emotion, Manchester United might be inclined to have a chat with Michael Carrick. The thing I want to put my handbrake on and say is, does Michael Carrick look the sort of man who rushes into decisions?

Ayo Akimolere (21:21)

I think that says it already, doesn't it? None of us had an answer. He's not that guy. He's not that guy. I get it. Oli, obviously that was a Rio Ferdinand quote at the top and it's in your piece right now on the Athletic, as you're talking about Michael Carrick as well. But is there a danger really to rely on history? We sort of touched on it at the top. Is it a hindrance to where Manchester United find themselves right now?

Oli Kay (21:42)

Well, I mentioned the Solskjaer appointment in my piece and how quickly Man United kind of improved and then were sort of swept along into appointing Solskjaer in 2019. And I just read a couple of the comments this morning and people were saying, oh, you know, there the media go again, dismissing the Solskjaer appointment as a mistake. The point I made in the piece was that things never looked as rosy again after that initial burst. There was the appointment, there was this incredible excitement for two or three months and then it just became a slog. And the first nine months of Solskjaer as Solskjaer as permanent manager were pretty terrible. It got to the January of that following season and it was already a case of, are they going to pull a plug on this? Then they signed Bruno Fernandes, everything seemed to change. Then it went into lockdown and pandemic football, which seemed to suit United down to the ground. They had this really good 20, 20, 21 season. But I felt there was a real kind of sense with Solskjaer that he was coming in and clearing the decks a bit, just sort of restoring the values. I don't think I ever felt he was going to be the guy who would take it onto the next level. And that's. That's how it turned out. And so I wouldn't say that appointing Solskjaer was a mistake, but I think by the end of Solskjaer they were almost back to square one because there was another clear out, another detoxification needed because it stayed too long and it unraveled. The Ronaldo siding, the Sancho siding, everything went sour again and before you knew it, it was a total rebuild again and a total reset needed turning back to the present day. It may be that the ideal thing is to have Carrick for these five, six months. It may be that the ideal thing is to have him for the next, I don't know, 18 months, two and a half years. I think you probably think that in order to get to the absolute top of the mountain again, that they would probably need somebody with a bit more clout, a bit more authority, heavyweight tactical expertise, proven, proven winner, etc, but I don't know that I would suspect that.

Ayo Akimolere (23:50)

I mean, Oli, in that case, Mikel Arteta didn't have any of those. I mean, I'm not trying to make it an Arsenal thing, but you do have to take a risk, right?

Oli Kay (23:57)

Arteta has learned on the job so impressively. But I think people talk as if about the Arteta period, as if he was given far too, you know, given time or money that he didn't deserve. I would say that from a moment Arteta went in and that was a real long term rebuild. Even within the first year of that, there was clearly a plan and a vision. I don't know, I felt there was an authority there, which he had to show with Ozil and other players that I don't think Solskjaer ever had at Manchester.

Carl Anker (24:28)

Oh, no, I disagree there. I disagree there. I think there was, yes, I think absolutely Micarteter had a clear plan, but also I don't think, I think Okonosceles had a plan, if only because I asked him, I asked him in November 2020. I went, quite frankly, what's the plan? And he said, how long you got? And then he gave me a very, very good answer explaining his ultimate intention for what Manchester United were going to play. Like there's a piece on the Athletic, if you want to go have a big deep dive in the archives. And I assessed everything he said and I went, well, he wants to make Manchester United 2007 and 2008. He wants to create a team that has four or five individuals that can absolutely dominate their 1v1 jewels and also have a front three where it is multifaceted and multi talented. If you think back to that 0708 team where you've got Wayne Rooney, Carlos Tevez and Cristiano Ronaldo, I said that. I said, this is probably what Polygon and Solskjaer wants to make. And then to put things even further forward when fans return back to football. And Manchester United beat Leeds United 51 at the start of that season before they signed Cristiano Ronaldo. And the team was absolutely thrilling that day. And we're all going. We're not sure if Man United are going to win the league, but they're certainly going to be fun. I'm in the press conference, I'm asking him about his vision for two or three of the players there. And he said, well, I only really consider Cavani as a center forward. He goes, wayne Rooney and Carlos Hevers never really had a defined role. And that's the thing we're going for. And I went, boom, there. He's done it, he's done he's got closer to the thing he wanted to do. And then you went into that transfer window and they bought Cristiano Ronaldo right at the death. And I was like, oh, now I don't think there is a single manager in the Premier League that doesn't have a plan about what they want to do. Unfortunately, we're talking about a Premier League where your average head coach manager is in place for 18 months. And for various market forces, you are always at the whims of a bigger football club, either within the Premier League or in Europe. And I think the Arteta comparison and Ayo, I'm gonna needle a little bit here is one that Manchester United fans have often made in defense of Ole Gunnar Solskjaer. And then they made it in defense of erik10hag and they made it in defense of Ruben Amren. As to this manager needs more time. Look at Mikel Arteta. Mikel Arteta's got more time. And look at what Arsenal are right now. You really speak to Arsenal fans and they will tell you. December 2020, it was really dark for Arsenal. There were loads of reasons why Arsenal could have very well conceivably pulled the plug on him, but he had some cachet in the bank because he won the FA cup very, very early on. The fact that December 2020 is during COVID and closed door football gave him some credit in the bank because you don't have the visual of 50,000 Arsenal fans booing him in the same way that you might have done. So perhaps he stayed in place a bit longer. And also you speak to some die hard Arsenal fans and they'll talk to you about the transformative effect Emil Smith row happened. So it's all to paraphrase a quote that is very often attributed to Mike Tyson. Everyone's got a plan to get punched in the mouth. Manchester United have had many plans and then they get punched in the mouth by unfortunately one of their either geographical or historical rivals that forces them to make goofy decisions.

Ayo Akimolere (27:33)

I mean, I understand what you're saying and I will also caveat that with the fact that last week I spoke about Arsenal heritage and I thought to myself, there are times, even in this season, I'm wishing for Arsene Wenger football again. I haven't enjoyed watching Arsenal at some point since season, but if Arsenal win the League, then all bets are off. All bets are off, Carl. And that's fundamentally it.

Carl Anker (27:55)

Winning is the best cure.

Ayo Akimolere (27:56)

Winning is everything. Right. All right, before you go, Carl, we have to quickly talk about afcon Final. I know we've been talking about Manchester United, but for me it was probably the most dramatic, the most intense, the most entertaining final ever in AFCON history. And I know you were covering it across the Athletic on Sunday night. What did you make of it?

Carl Anker (28:16)

I adore AFCON. I've only been a full time football journalist since 2019, but one thing I think about is every time I think this sport has shown me everything it has to show me. Every time I think I've seen pretty much every single great goal or I've seen this, I've had my fill and I've seen this time and time again. Afcon, every two years will go, hello, you've never seen this. And for one, if you are someone that just switched on for the final 10 minutes of that 90 minutes, I would say even before that, that was a thrilling game of football. That was one of the most open. That's probably the most open final you see to any game of men's football this year in that Senegal and Morocco really, really went for it. I think it was four shots on goal from Senegal in the first half. Morocco had two chances. Nicholas Jackson came close once or twice. Bono had to make some really big saves in the first half too. This was really, really entertaining football. Morocco's collective defense now is. This is why Morocco is the highest ranked African team. Their defending is phenomenal. I think Senegal have the strongest midfield of all the teams in the tournament. And then you get in the moment, watching in real time. Those were indescribable scenes, which is very difficult for me because I'm a journalist and I was supposed to write about what's going on. I'm going. I don't really know what to describe. There has long been criticism of this tournament about refereeing decisions and refereeing decisions that, at least according to the Nigerian camp, after the semi final, they felt favored Morocco and two or three individuals who were present at Afcon, or be it reporters or players, believe that the thumb of the footballing gods was on the scale in favor of Morocco and in favor of the hosts. Now, this is afcon. Afcon is a tournament that very often, for reasons that perhaps no longer affect European football in the same way, the hosts do tend to have just an extra 5 or 10%. 20, 23. Afcon was won by Ivory coast and they attacked their manager partway through. But they found the way within themselves to do things.

Oli Kay (30:09)

This is.

Carl Anker (30:10)

This is Afcon. Things like this can happen. But for Senegal to have a goal from a corner chalked off because what they thought was tussling was a. Well, no, to me, that was a fair goal for Senegal to score and then to then go, well, there was tussling here to award a penalty. You're going, you cannot end a final by giving a boy a penalty in the last minute like this. The fact that the referee has to run off to the Var screen and he's being surrounded almost like, you know, circling the wagons around the referee to make sure he can do this. You get the. You get that penalty decision and then on top of that, a 25 minute pause. You're in Rabat right now. What did that sound like during that pause when players are in the tunnel?

Ayo Akimolere (30:51)

Not just the players and the fans. I mean, the Moroccan fans from the beginning of the game, which is whistling, hissing, booing, like they really wanted their team to win that match. And it felt like it was all geared to towards Morocco winning that match. And I think from where we were standing, looking over at the Senegalese fans, they were already aggrieved by the fact that that goal didn't stand for Senegal. And I think you are right. It was the fact that that goal wasn't checked by Var with the same scrutiny as obviously the penalty that was given to Morocco was. So that's why we saw the uproar from the fans. That's why we also saw T come on the field and take his players off the field. And we saw Mane doing his Peaceman gesture to try and get things back on track. I mean, it was a cauldron of football. I would say that in racist sense and in a weirdly, the ugliest sense as well. But I think what sometimes when people watch Afcon and what they don't understand is that, like, you have to actually understand the narrative of the tournament before judging it. I think a lot of people are looking at Afcon right now and thinking that was an ugly final. I mean, it was to a certain degree, but it also provided some incredible spectacle. Of course, Sadio, Mane or Diaz wouldn't have wanted to see the scuffles that happened. But also, let's not forget Morocco had an opportunity to win that regardless of what happened. And look what happened with the Panenka. Goodness knows what happened there.

Carl Anker (32:10)

It's your first time to win your nation trophy for a very, very long time. It is the dying minutes.

Ayo Akimolere (32:17)

50 years.

Carl Anker (32:17)

50 years. First time to an Afghan trophy in 50 years in Morocco. You're in Morocco to do it. You will write yourself into football and folklore if you score this penalty and you opt to do a Panenka. I've never seen anything like it. I don't know if I ever will see anything like it. And this is why.

Ayo Akimolere (32:33)

But yet again, Afcon is one of the greatest tournaments ever. Ollie, very quickly, I know you'll be really quiet. What did you make of it from afar?

Oli Kay (32:40)

Amazing. Absolutely amazing. I was about half an hour behind watching it and sort of caught up a bit during half time, but I was watching it on delay and I sort of turned off all my notifications because I didn't want any spoilers. But what happened was just absolutely astonishing and I wanted to message people, but because I disabled notifications, I was behind and I didn't know whether they were gonna come back on. I didn't know whether they were gon sort of forfeit the game. It was astonishing. It was such drama and such kind of. It was chaos.

Carl Anker (33:12)

It was human drama. One thing that. So one thing I am now. This is maybe my age showing now. One thing I rail against is how far too much of entertainment is seeking this absolute cinema. So you get the 4K cameras, you get the 8K cameras, and everything now feels more like a. A slickly made televisual product first rather than particularly an example of football sporting competition. And one reason I am I truly enjoy Afcon in a way that I perhaps do not enjoy other football tournaments is Afcon always has two or three moments a game where you go, you are watching people in real time try and problem solve and win a football game. This is not a slickly made, highly rehearsed, operatic script. Afcon is where things go wrong and then people very quickly go, how do I problem solve and fix this? And I mean that in the on field stuff, in the off field stuff, Afcon is the. Is the movable feast of tournaments. I think only one, only One Afcon since 2012 has occurred in the same country and at the same time it was originally advertised to happen. Right? This is. This is a tom that is constantly on the move, constantly having things happen to it. This is a tournament that. Because it happens every two years as well. Well, we'll see what happens next. Also means if you have a golden generation, and you will very often run into another country's golden generation multiple times. So you get. You get almost like very specific generational grudge matches. Senegal and Egypt perhaps didn't have that needle between them 20 years ago, but they have now because of this sort of mini run of games they've had between Saudi Armani and Mohamed Salah. Nigeria now has this needle with with Egypt as well, because of their little mini run that they've been going on to as well. And you know, every two years you're going to get a chance. Every two years you're going to get a chance. And the players, because it's every two years your peak, you're not going, this is my last afcon. Because you go, actually, if I can just get my stuff together, I can have another go. And I know there are critics saying these are. This. These are scenes we don't want to see, or these are things that have brought whatever ridiculous term you want to say to African football. Afcon shows you what football is at its heart, a children's game, a game we've given to children. And every child can play and anyone can pick up a ball and get going. And sometimes weird stuff happens, and sometimes what is necessary is not always nice. And I liked how AFCON showed me that on Sunday.

Ayo Akimolere (35:39)

And I've got to say, football, whichever country it's played, is often a reflection of its society. And I would say what we saw is how a lot works in Africa. If people feel aggrieved, they will do something about it and stand up and speak about it in that respect. And that's what we saw in the protest for Senegal. But I got to say, what a final. It's the first time both teams have ever met in AFCON final. Who would have thunk it? But also a real celebration on the flip side of two, I would say of the more progressive foundations or federations in African football right now, in Morocco and Senegal as well. Great goal. Good send off for Sadio Mane. And what an AFCON final that I don't think anyone will ever forget. Appreciate your time as always, Carl. Thanks for joining us.

Carl Anker (36:20)

Thanks for having me. You take care.

Ayo Akimolere (36:22)

Well, for more coverage on the fallout from the Afcon final, do keep across the athletic. Next, let's try get back on track and talk about the Manchester Derby and discuss where things went so wrong for Manchester City.

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You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimolere.

Ayo Akimolere (39:08)

Well, let's take a look at Manchester City then. Their patched up defence struggle to contain Manchester United at Old Trafford. But with the imminent arrival of Mark Gahey, what difference could he actually make? Well, to give us that answer, here's Sam Lee.

Sam Lee (39:21)

I think there's a couple of ways that Mark Gahey is going to be important to City, and that's basically short Term and long term, short term, he's obviously going to make a big difference because Ruben Dias is still out for three weeks, which isn't much in the grand scheme of things, but he's out for. For three weeks. Gradiol's out until pretty much the end of the season. And John Stones, they just don't really know about Nathan Ake. I'm struggling a bit at the moment, so to bring in a player as good as Mark Ahy, that's obviously going to help right now. And then long term, it just makes their options really strong because as well as the players I just mentioned there, they've got Kusanov, who seems to be getting better. Max, Elaine, has he got taken off at Old Trafford at the weekend from that. That patched up defense, but he's really impressed City, he's really impressed me, and I think there's a place for him in the squad. But going forward, if you start thinking about next season, it's going to be Diaz, Gvardiol, Gehi, Kusanov and possibly Elaine, maybe Vitor Hais, who's on loan at Girona and doing well. But suddenly there's a. There's a lot of really good depth there, and it really adds to the feeling, for me, anyway, the City are building something really, really strong. They were terrible at the weekend, and I know it's difficult to see that now, especially because in the last four Premier League games, they haven't won any of them. But I still feel like. Because Arsenal keep drawing, I still feel like City could do something in the league this year, but if not, they're still, obviously in the three cup competitions and next season with a defense like that. And then, you know, players like Semenyo, Doku, Haaland, Jerky Reinders, all of those guys get into grips with. With the Premier League and Guardiola, I do feel like they're improving and gay.

Ayo Akimolere (41:00)

He.

Sam Lee (41:00)

He really does fit into that. I think part of the reason. Part of the reason that so many people are annoyed about him going to City and going to City now is because obviously he's a really good player. And then you add him to the good players that City have got already and, yeah, they're really building something strong.

Ayo Akimolere (41:14)

Yeah. Sam Lee with some strong thoughts on Margaret joining Manchester City. I was really interested in what he said in terms of their building, but also I think that kind of counteracts the fact that he also says that they're going to do something strong in the league this season. I mean, what do you stand with that, are they still building? Can they finish really strong, perhaps win the Premier League this season?

Oli Kay (41:33)

I think it depends on Arsenal. I think City will still win a lot of matches between now and May, but for them to make up that seven point deficit, we would need to see some kind of minor implosion from Arsenal. And personally, I know there are a lot of people who have this idea that Arsenal are really flaky and are bound to blow up. Personally, as of. What's the date? January 19, 2026, I don't see it. I see Arsenal as being the most resilient team, the least likely to throw away silly points. They will draw games. Liverpool drew games last season. But I would say the last four games have really reinforced what I already felt, which was that Arsenal are the best team in the League this season and that man, City are. Yeah, they are a team in transition, I think, from winning those four league titles. There's been an awful lot of upheaval and turmoil and a lot of ins and a lot of outs and sometimes we like to think, well, oh, everyone's allowed a season to rebuild and sometimes you can't rebuild in a season, sometimes it takes longer. So I agree that City are rebuilding, but I would just be. I'm just not convinced that. And I don't think I've really been convinced all season that they are going to be at the level they reached when they won previous League titles. And the injuries to Diaz and Gvardiol have exposed that the last four games have been really, really disappointing. Haaland's goals have dried up really, haven't they? And it's.

Ayo Akimolere (43:04)

Yeah, that was interesting. What do you think that's down to? Because Guardiola has obviously spoken about how other players should be contributing as well, but he seems to have sort of failed off a little bit of recent, hasn't he?

Oli Kay (43:14)

Yeah, he doesn't miss many chances. But you know that thing people will always say, well, it's good as long as somebody's getting into the areas. He's not really had great service the last few games. I think there's just a lot of change going on, a lot of change going on in terms of the way they're attacking, the changes from one week to the next in terms of. Is it Foden? Is it playing further forward? Is it Cherokee, Is it Semenya, Is it Doku? There's probably a lot of changes for him and he looks like he's played too many games, really. I mean, I was surprised he started that game against Exeter when there was no need really. But he's played a lot of 90 minutes. I think almost any player who's played every 90 minutes in the Premier League or had played every 90 minutes in the Premier League for weeks until Saturday, I think all of those players look like they're feeling the effects of those physical exertions and all that sort of fixture pile up. I think he's one of them and I think he's surrounded by players who are not hitting the same heights creatively as they were a month ago. Foden, Tjerki, etc. It just seems like a team that's in transition and they are good enough to challenge Arsenal. But unless Arsenal drop off, City aren't going to win the League.

Ayo Akimolere (44:28)

Oh wow. Okay. Definitely less optimistic than Sam. All right, let's leave it there, Oli. Appreciate your time as always, Oli. And also Carl for joining us and Sam for his voice note as well. That's really nice. And also thank you guys for for watching and listening. We'll catch you soon.

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You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroo and Jay Beal. The executive producer was Aimee Morehead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, Search for the Athletic and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an Athletic media company production.

Carl Anker (45:23)

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Carl Anker (46:02)

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Discover is accepted where I like to shop.

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These are making a comeback, I think.

Ayo Akimolere (46:15)

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