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- [00:00]
Phil Hay
Buying a car in Carvana was so easy I was able to finance it through them. I just. Whoa, wait. You mean finance? Yeah, finance. Got pre qualified for a Carvana auto loan, entered my terms and shot from thousands of great car options all within my budget.
- [00:12]
Adam Leventhal
That's cool.
- [00:13]
Phil Hay
But financing through Carvana was so easy. Financed, done, and I get to pick up my car from their Carvana vending machine tomorrow. Financed, right?
- [00:20]
Simon Johnson
That's what they said.
- [00:21]
Phil Hay
You can spend time trying to pronounce financing or you can actually finance and buy your car today on Carvana financing, subject to credit approval. Additional terms and conditions may apply.
- [00:31]
Adam Leventhal
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- [01:03]
Phil Hay
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- [01:30]
Adam Leventhal
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast. I'm Adam Leventhal. So Chelsea's young squad were given a bit of a reality check on their Champions League return. So will a lack of experience cost them in Europe and the Premier League? Well, with me is our Chelsea correspondent Simon Johnson, who is out in Munich at the moment at time of record, and our newsletter lead writer Phil Hay. Gents, thanks very much for being with me. So Chelsea beaten 31 in Munich by Bayern. If you didn't catch it, it was an own goal from Shalabar, then a Kane penalty, followed very quickly afterwards by Cole Palmer's goal for Chelsea. And then Gusto gifted the England captain a second in the second half. But what else was the difference between the two sides? Simon, you've written about the contrast in experience. How stark was it?
- [02:24]
Simon Johnson
Well, I think we should sort of emphasize that half of the players that played last night were making their Champions League debuts. The fact that Jamie Gittins, who didn't even get on, has instantly been projected or boosted to become the second most experienced Champions League player that Chelsea have in their squad. And he's only 21, he's only been there five minutes. Rhys James leads the way. Obviously the Only survivor from the 2021 campaign. So inevitably, I think that's going to make a difference. You only have to sort of compare Harry Kane to Joao Pedro. Now, I thought Joao Pedro had a good game leading the line, but this is chalk and cheese in terms of performing at the highest level in terms of Champions League. Harry Kane with his 391 club goals and only the third player in Champions League history to score over 20 goals for two different clubs in the Champions League. And Joao Pedro is making his debut in the competition. I mean, it's significant. And what I felt during the game itself was that Bayern Munich effectively won the sort of decisive moments, that they were able to ride out the storm when Chelsea were on top far better than the other way round. And Chelsea sort of seemed to crack under the pressure a bit. Whenever sort of Bayern were testing them defensively and second half in particular, I sort of felt that Bayern Munich just had that extra know how. And don't forget that Enzo Maresca, too. This was his first Champions League game as. As head coach of Chelsea and his first game in the Champions League, too. And whilst Vincent Kompany is not exactly a veteran, he only experienced it as a head coach last season for the first time. But I think even then Kompany sort of edged it in terms of that experience. Everyone perhaps made the changes tactically that made a difference in the second half and ensured Byron came out on top.
- [04:15]
Adam Leventhal
There's so much attention, Phil, isn't there, on Chelsea. Obviously, they've had an incredible year winning the club World cup, but the last time they were actually in the Champions League, the campaign had started with Thomas took in charge, ended with Graham Potter. It's easy to forget how much has changed at Chelsea over a short period of time, isn't it?
- [04:34]
Phil Hay
Yeah, and I think they could definitely do without that being the case again this season. A repeat of that isn't going to do them any good. Chelsea, this sort of model of constant evolution, like a club who can't stop themselves changing or tweaking or mixing things up, something that they constantly have to be doing. They're going to have periods where the status quo is allowed to continue for a while, but it's. It's almost like edgy feet syndrome, you know, especially in the transfer market, where they're always tempted by something new and something fresh. I think if the grand plan for them is to be England's top team or Europe's top team, then there does have to come a point where the project or the setup is allowed to Ride. And that's probably where they are now, you know, ready for some continuity, suited for some continuity. I mean, Maresca was new to the job last summer, got them into the Champions League and won the Club World cup, also won the Conference League. But it would have been quite an achievement not to have won that, given how much depth Chelsea had. Those were really necessary first steps for him, especially a top four finish, I would say. And they did shore up his position. And what they're trying to do now is take that second step, which I guess is to make a bigger dent in the Premier League, not necessarily to win it. I think that's probably asking too much and to make a relative splash in the Champions League. And they weren't terrible last night. It was a difficult game and I thought in periods they played well, but they were naive, particularly around Bayern's goals. And you have to say that the club are kind of inviting that by investing so heavily in players who are pretty wet behind the ears. And, you know, that's the strategy they've chosen. And since it is the strategy that they've gone for, some naivety I think has to be tolerated for a while. It's not that everybody on the pitch is, you know, exceptionally or ridiculously young, but as Simon's pointed out there, and particularly the reference to Gettens, you know, you don't find vast Champions League experience or title winning experience in this squad as it stands. And the same goes for Maresca as a coach too. I'd agree with Simon that in the second half it did feel like Kompany handled the to play better than Maresca did. But I would say that the more Chelsea are able to let the core of the squad settle and to keep Maresca involved as well, I think the better it will get. Last night just told them that they're away off it yet.
- [06:38]
Adam Leventhal
How did Maresca respond, Simon, after the defeat? Because a lot of people will say, oh, you know, they had a young side out. They're playing against, you know, vastly experienced Bayern Munich, who are, you know, tried and tested over a huge period of time. They haven't been out of the competition like Chelsea have. Was he cool, calm and collected in terms of where they stand? Because it is early, isn't it?
- [07:01]
Simon Johnson
I think overall I think he was actually quite optimistic. I asked him about the difference in experience levels and whether that was a factor. And whilst he agreed with me, because I basically set him up on the volley to say, yes, Simon, you're right, but he still thinks that Chelsea can be a major Force in this competition.
- [07:21]
Phil Hay
I've been already in this stadium playing Champions League game as assistant manager or as assistant coach with Seville, with the city. I don't know how difficult it is to come here and compete. You cannot think to come in this stadium against this team and try to dominate and control the game for 95 minutes, 100 minutes.
- [07:43]
Adam Leventhal
This is not reality.
- [07:44]
Simon Johnson
It's difficult.
- [07:45]
Phil Hay
That happened so in the way we compete for part of the game we were very good. Probably the mistake we did. It's something that we can learn from that. And as I said, I have the feeling that we can build something special from this defeat.
- [07:59]
Simon Johnson
We should put it in some perspective. Chelsea do have a lot of confidence from what they achieved the back end of last season. I think the victory over PSG and the club World Cup Final in particular has given them that self belief and certainly lack of experience didn't hurt them on that occasion. They actually really rose the occasion which sort of made people think, oh, perhaps Chelsea are really going places and me being one of them. But I think we should still put in perspective the average age of this squad and sort of. Phil intimates that Chelsea are sort of that year, two years away from being the finished article. It's just where the Chelsea fans can be patient.
- [08:39]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, but Simon, do you think that that is the plan, that Enzo in midfield and Caicedo are going to be there for a while and the team is going to be built around them and Cole Palmer, Is there a feeling that they want to do that or is this sort of revolving door, this Bay Young sell expensive plan, is that just going to keep rolling and rolling and rolling so you're not necessarily going to get a consistency.
- [09:03]
Simon Johnson
I think Chelsea will always be busy in the market. It's what they like to do. But the sort of the noises that I've had over the last year or two is that there was always going to be a lot of turnover in the first couple of years and a lot of it has been of course trying to get players out from the previous regime and also some of the mistakes that were made. And I think the club are sort of fairly open behind closed doors that they did make some mistakes in terms of some of the players they brought in early on, but that going forward that there would only be sort of minor little tweaks and not this huge revolving door. Well, of course this summer contradicted that a little bit because it was still quite busy. But mainly on the outgoings. You have to say there was a lot of players that left but I do think stability has to come in at some point. You want to get to a position where you only having to make one or two changes to his squad in a window and not having to introduce new face every five minutes and get them up on the chair to sing another initiation song. Because that's probably got a bit tiresome down at Cobham. It's like, oh, here's another one.
- [10:08]
Adam Leventhal
You know, Phil, just a point from you in terms of balancing out the Premier League and the Champions League, obviously it's a huge step up. It puts a greater strain on your squad. Do you see that being an issue for Chelsea this season? I mean, they've had a relatively easy start to the Premier League season and it's two wins and two draws. They haven't lost yet. This is their first loss of the season. Do you see Enzo Maresca being able to sort of guide his way very well through this campaign?
- [10:37]
Phil Hay
Well, he doesn't like numbers, does he? You know, let's. Let's put it that way. If there's one thing Chelsea do have, it's bodies in the building. And I know that we've all made fun of that and had a bit of a laugh at their expense at the high turnover and the high amount of recruitment. But actually, given the way that the football calendars go in and the way in which congestion just seems to be increasing, increasing along with the sheer number of fixtures, I do sense a bit of a shift in attitude among other clubs. Going from Chelsea's headcount is ridiculous to actually, there is a bit of safety in numbers given how much you have to play and how many. How many games you have to manage through an individual season. And that's before you come on to anything like PSR and the resale value, which is clearly right at the center of Chelsea's recruitment policy too. I think a good example that's coming down the tracks is that period in November where it's Barcelona on Tuesday night and then Arsenal the following weekend. It's going to take some nice to come out of those games with two good results and that's where he will be tested. But as far as you know, his strongest lineup goes, he has the players to work with.
- [11:40]
Adam Leventhal
Just a quick one from you, Simon, on the games to come. Obviously Phil's mentioned Barcelona there, Atalanta, Napoli and interestingly, Benfica next with Jose Mourinho in charge. Just get me clear on this one, because the last time I was at Stamford Bridge, they were singing for Jose Mourinho. Obviously, a lot's changed since I was there. You know, they've won a couple of trophies and Enzo Maresca has worked out perfectly fine. But what sort of reception will he get?
- [12:05]
Simon Johnson
That's a really good question because don't forget when he came back as Manchester United manager, he was booed. Yeah, he was fantastic. Classic Jose on the pitch. First of all, doing the three fingers to signify his three Premier League title wins with Chelsea. And then in the post match press conference, until someone wins four, Judas is number one.
- [12:26]
Phil Hay
When they have somebody that wins four Premier Leagues for them, I become number two. But until this moment, Judas is number one. Can I ask you why they did boo him, Simon? Why that reaction to him?
- [12:38]
Simon Johnson
Because Jose inevitably, once he left for rival at Manchester United, he did have a few things to say that upset the fan base. Inevitably. I always found it a bit surprising because if anyone should know what Mourinho's like, it should be Chelsea fans and actually not be sort of that offended because that's Mourinho, that's what he does. And Chelsea certainly benefited from Mourinho when he was at his pomp and in the kind of the mind games and the kind of barbs that he would say about rival managers. But maybe sort of with a bit of time and the fact that Jose isn't quite what he was, I hope that people will give him the respect he deserves. For me, he's Chelsea's best ever manager. I know he didn't win the Champions League, but I think his DNA was all over the team that won in 2012. Other managers benefited from winning trophies with that squad. And of course then he came back and won again and a League cup too. So it's going to be interesting. But just quickly, I just want to add, injuries have also started to hurt them sort of very early on, particularly being without Levi Colwill. Defensively, that's a serious setback and he's going to be out for most of the season. And you sort of feel that Chelsea are at the moment struggling to adapt to his absence. Of course, losing Liam Delap already, they've lost an option in terms of leading the line. Dario Sugo is a backup to Caicedo. He's actually been left out now of the group phase of the competition because he's had an operational thigh injury. So that's also a factor that we should bear in mind. But that's not making out that Chelsea don't have quite a few players to choose from.
- [14:16]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, indeed. One they don't choose from anymore. We will discuss next because one of the pre match subplots in Munich was the prospect of Nicolas Jackson facing his parent club. This is the Athletic FC podcast with Adam Leventhal.
- [14:32]
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- [15:53]
Adam Leventhal
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- [16:55]
Phil Hay
One.
- [16:55]
Adam Leventhal
Last time betterhelp.com FC podcast as a.
- [17:00]
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- [18:24]
Adam Leventhal
Now, we're going to be discussing Nicholas Jackson now and his appearance for Bayern Munich against Chelsea and the the transfer intricacies, which are continue to be very, very interesting indeed. But before we do that, a quick bit of trivia for you and Phil, you can jump in here. You've got a big brain on on football, but I'm expecting Simon Johnson to shine here. Nicholas is only the fourth player since 2000 to play for both Chelsea and Bayern Munich. Who are the other three players? Jump in when you're ready.
- [18:58]
Simon Johnson
I shook my head because I'm so sleep deprived that the brain is a little bit. So I'm sort of instantly going, you've called me out there, Adam.
- [19:09]
Adam Leventhal
Three different nationalities.
- [19:11]
Simon Johnson
Well, Ian, Robin, there we go. There's one iron, Robin.
- [19:14]
Adam Leventhal
That's one.
- [19:15]
Simon Johnson
I've managed to get one.
- [19:16]
Adam Leventhal
You've got a German and a Peruvian.
- [19:18]
Simon Johnson
Robert Huth.
- [19:19]
Adam Leventhal
Nope.
- [19:20]
Phil Hay
Oh, Ballack.
- [19:21]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, Ballack. Michael Ballack, indeed. And the Peruvian.
- [19:26]
Phil Hay
Oh, come on, Si. You're big on Peruvians.
- [19:29]
Simon Johnson
Ah, Claudio Pizarro.
- [19:32]
Phil Hay
Good job, Pizarro.
- [19:35]
Adam Leventhal
Well done. There will have been thousands and thousands, maybe even millions of Chelsea fans going, come on, Si. You can't be that rusty at this time of the night.
- [19:43]
Simon Johnson
No, no, I really am.
- [19:44]
Adam Leventhal
Come on.
- [19:45]
Simon Johnson
Any regulars straight out of Cobb would know that my. My performance seemed. Quiz is very hit and miss. It depends how much sleep I've had. But.
- [19:54]
Adam Leventhal
Right, let's kick on, shall we? Let's focus on seeing Nicholas Jackson playing for Bayern Munich against Chelsea last night. It was very, very late on. He came on in stoppage time. Just tell us what the reaction was at the moment and the. The emotions of seeing him appear for Bayern Munich after everything that had gone, you know, with his transfer on, off on again and very complicated. Simon.
- [20:20]
Simon Johnson
Yeah, I mean, in terms of introduction. So it came so late, it kind of went a little bit unnoticed and I think the cheers were certainly from the Bayern fans, were mainly because of Harry Kane and his superb performance and two goals. I thought what was most interesting was pre match because Nicholas Jackson was seen sort of hugging Chelsea staff. There was a moment just before he went down the tunnel after the warmup where there was Andres Santos and Esteban Willian, couple of guys that you didn't really get to play with, really warm hugs that actually went down the tunnel, sort of arms around each other's shoulders. Mark Guillaume was there, of course, he's been recalled from loan at Sunderland to partly sort of fill in for Jackson. So it all felt very friendly and I think that his teammates. That's not a massive shock. I think Jackson was a pretty popular member in the dressing room. Rhys James, pre match spoke of his surprise that he's gone. I didn't know whether that was a slight questioning Chelsea's decision or in fairness, Jackson wanted to leave too. Shouldn't be forgotten that Jackson was pushing for a move once Israel, Pedro and Liam Dillat were signed and of course, instantly we're promoted above him at the Club World cup. And I think he saw the writing on the wall that he'd be third choice this season and with the World cup in mind next summer, he wants to obviously play. Now the question is, is how much will he play for Bayern Munich? It's early days, two games, two sort of substitute Appearances. Bayern Munich showed last night that they've got a pretty good attack. They were pretty impressive, it has to be said. I mean, quick shout out for Elise. I mean, my word, there's a player that Chelsea decided not to sign because of the wage demands. They just could not compete with Bayern Munich's wage demands. But he looks worth every penny. But. But, yes, of course, there's been a lot of chat the last few weeks of the nature of Chelsea's deal and agreement with Bayern Munich. Uli Holness, just when he thought it all died down, because it's quite a dramatic transfer. Willy, won't he? Willy, won't he? And then the deal finally gets done and Ulihunes then sort of starts talking about the terms of what will turn this loan into a permanent signing. But I've been assured regardless, that Jackson is going to be a Bayern Munich player. There's great confidence in his camp that this is going to be a permanent move.
- [22:46]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, I mean, often we talk about loans with options, loans with obligations. If he's questioned, I suppose, Ollie Holness, what you're talking about, that. The conditional obligation. We've had some weird obligation clauses in the past, basically where they have to walk through the door at reception, and yet then it's been actioned or they've got to spend, you know, one minute on the. On the field or this, that or whatever. Do we know exactly what the conditional obligation is, Simon?
- [23:12]
Simon Johnson
Well, according to Honus, it's. He has to start 40. He's the only one that's come out and been public. When I've sort of put this to people I know at Chelsea, they're certainly not commenting on the exact causes that will make this permanent. There's been reports since Honus came out with his comments that It'll only be 40, 45 minutes, as it were, but it's not just starts, it's where he plays 45 minutes, which, of course he did against Hamburg on Saturday. But I stress again that the vibe that I. But certainly Chelsea are happy with the deal regardless, because they've got a very good loan fee. And if he has a good loan, even if he doesn't, he's still 25. And they're very confident in terms of next summer, they're still very confident that they'll get a very good fee for him. And as I just pointed out, I think there's a feeling on quite a few sides that Bayern Munich will make this a permanent deal. But of course, it would help for that to happen for Nicholas Jackson to make a big impact, and I still think he will. I mean, what an option to have. The question mark about him sort of being able to make enough appearances is, of course, AFCON in the new year, which will take him away from Bayern for a few weeks.
- [24:26]
Adam Leventhal
And Phil, when you assess this as a transfer, as often we do on the Athletic, we like to rank transfers as to whether they're good, bad or ugly. They signed him two years ago, Nicholas Jackson, in the summer of 2023 for 32 million. They could end up with 70 million. I know we've spoken a lot about Chelsea's transfer dealings and whether it is good, bad or ugly what they're doing, but this one seems as if they've turned another profit on a player that was not the face that was fitting.
- [24:54]
Phil Hay
They're good at that. There's absolutely no denying that. I think it's been shown. Whether or not they're ahead of the market in a competitive sense will depend on what happens over the next few years and what they win and the point at which they reach financially. I think they definitely are. Just the discussion about the loans with obligations. I wonder how long that whole routine is going to be allowed to fly by the authorities, particularly deals which are just basically rate obligations. It's clearly different with Jackson because certain criteria needs to be met. But you do see quite a large number of loans which are basically loans with a cast iron obligation at the end, which means they're guaranteed to become permanent after 12 months or whatever it is. And it doesn't seem to be anything other than a means of kicking the PSR can down the road. And I do think at some stage various governing bodies might say to clubs, if you're effectively signing impermanently, then signing permanently, because it's a bit of a daft loophole which only seems to serve PSR constraints. But one of the things that does fascinate me about Chelsea is the way that they seem to land on their feet financially time and again. And I'm not talking about the sale of hotels or the sale of the women's team. They do have this fairly remarkable knack of recouping money from the transfer market. And it doesn't always work, doesn't always pay off. And Kunku having to take a hit on, or had to take a hit on for him to go to Milan, but to take Jackson. So like you said, he was kind of 30 million or thereabouts when Chelsea signed him in 2023. Chelsea don't want him anymore. In their eyes, he's not good enough. He doesn't fit. But whatever it is, he's expendable. Yet somehow he's gone to Bayern Munich, which some people would say is a step up, but one way or the other is a very, very elite transfer for a loan fee of about £40 million, according to our reporting, and an obligation of £56 million. So they're basically doubling the money on him and it might not come to pass. And it's a little hard to tell, judging by the noises coming out of Bayern, although Simon sounds pretty confident about it, or gets the feeling that the Jacksons people are confident about it. But whenever we chat about Chelsea, I always go back to something that one of our other Chelsea writers, Liam Toomey, talks about, which is this thing of Chelsea having a portfolio of footballers in the way that some people have portfolios of houses or property. The portfolio is blatantly designed in part to make a profit on transfers. And I can't deny that Chelsea seem pretty skillful at it, Jackson being the latest example. Whether it takes them where they want to go competitively, as I said at the start, I think is a moot point. But they do know how to make assets appreciate in value. And I think there'll be a fair number of clubs out there who are quite envious of the way they do it.
- [27:29]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah. And Simon, they did make a profit this summer, didn't they? £294 million worth of transfer fees in it allowed them to spend 284 million. Why did they need to make a net profit this summer? Because, I mean, Phil mentioned those three letters.
- [27:49]
Simon Johnson
Yes, but this was particularly important for UEFA, because, of course, Chelsea were punished by UEFA for breaching their financial rules. Not only were they fined, but there was a condition put in place that to register new players on the A list, Chelsea had to have a positive transfer balance from the Champions League squad to the Conference League squad in the knockout phase. So that's why the importance to bring a lot of money in was even more important this year. But they've been doing it anyway. And this is touching on Phil's point about Chelsea being good sellers. This is part of their model in terms of buying young, putting them on long contracts and on lower salaries than the Abramovich era. Because obviously what was the stumbling block for when a player was no longer wanted in the Abramovich era was, of course, they were older on more money talking generally here, and it was harder to shift them. Of course, if you're still young, you're not on stupid Money. It makes it a bit easier to sell even if a player has not worked out. So that's why Chelsea will feel like their model is working. Certainly from a business point of view.
- [29:01]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah. And that relationship with Strasbourg continues to rumble on. We've already had it confirmed that 6 foot 5 tall striker Emmanuel Omega is going to be coming in from Strasbourg. The first new arrival confirmed for 2026. So they're not really changing their way in any way, shape or form. Do they need him? I suppose with the Lapp's absence, maybe. But do we know where he's going to slot in?
- [29:26]
Simon Johnson
They've essentially bought Nicholas Jackson's replacement. They see him as a very similar player to Jackson, very fast, very good down the channels, running in behind. They just feel like he's got a great ceiling to grow into a top striker. And there's a lot of noises from Strasbourg fans in particular then not too happy about it and understandably so. But Blue coach who own both clubs and obviously for the Chelsea side, they all feel like this is where another example where the multi club model works in their favor. Emmergill was being approached by other Champions League clubs back in the last season and they were facing a battle. Strasbourg were to keep him for this season and he was convinced to stay one more year. I think it obviously helps that there's a pathway to Chelsea and it didn't take too long. In fact, some of the thinking post a lap injury and before the deadline shut was with Emer in mind is do they go out and sign a striker? No, because they don't want to block the pathway for this guy. So the decision had sort of been made that emerger is the future. So yes, he's coming in 226. I also should mention Adam, that a very sort of good promising young winger Kwenda from Portugal, that a deal has also been done in advance for him to come in 226. Again, this is sort of touching. Top of the show, what I was saying. Chelsea will still do business, but they're very savvy in trying to look for the next young bright prospect. And they certainly feel Omega can take Chelsea onto another level, which will put pressure on Tilap and Joao Pedro to continue to make an impact this season.
- [31:05]
Adam Leventhal
It's funny you mentioned he's got a high ceiling. He bloody well needs one. He's six foot five. So we'll see how it pans out for him. Just a word, Phil, with you because all these players coming in the churn of young players developing and look They're a good side. Chelsea, you know, they've won trophies and they're moving in the right direction with a crop of young players mixed with some experience as well. But amongst that experience is Not Raheem Sterling. 88 Champions League games throughout his career. He's out in the cold. It does feel strange that you can have someone so experienced and with the potential of adding something completely cut out of the deal.
- [31:46]
Phil Hay
I just don't think there's a market for him. He's going to be expensive. He's on a high wage, he's into his 30s. He's been drifting for a while. Style. He doesn't strike you as an asset that you particularly want to throw a huge amount of money at. I wonder if he ends up in MLS or Mexico, which more and more feels like a market for players of his kind of age and level. Saudi possibly. Although I do get the feeling that Saudi clubs are getting a bit more savvy with the money that they're prepared to spend on players. So where it goes for Sterling is hard to say apart from to kind of reflect the fact that it will be him exit in Stamford Bridge at some point. I'm just not sure how they're going to that happen and what concessions are going to have to be made on either side in order to ensure that it does.
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Adam Leventhal
Okay, well, just like Raheem Sterling, we're going to have to move on. Chelsea have been handed 74 charges by the FA. But why? We'll explain next.
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- [34:26]
Adam Leventhal
This is the Athletic FC podcast with Adam Leventhal. So, on Friday, Chelsea were handed 74 charges for alleged payments to agents and Simon, you had the honour and the enjoyment of having to break this down for us on the Athletic. Just explain what it's all about in as best way as you can.
- [34:48]
Simon Johnson
Yeah, in as brief a way as I can. So this is issues that were flagged from the Roman Abramovich era and when the new owners were and the consortium were doing their due diligence on taking over the club in 2022, they became aware of things that didn't look right and the unusual situation of a club basically telling on themselves, which is unheard of, but they were able to sort of say, well, it wasn't us, it was the person that we're essentially buying the club from. And they, they negotiated 100 million pound discount from the initial asking price of 2.5 billion. Now, what were these charges related to? Essentially, it's about payments made to agents, intermediaries of off the books, which could be perceived as a. A way around psr, I should sort of say, alleged breaches. It obviously was a significant amount, hence the 74 charges. And there was some real high profile signings. Not that the players were guilty of any wrongdoing, but some of the players were talking about key players for Chelsea. Eden Hazard being perhaps sort of like the sexiest name that's come to line. Willian, of course, who Chelsea's fans sing on a regular basis about how Roman Abramovich stole him away from Tottenham. Samuel etu, who made a big impact in his one season at Chelsea. I'm told that there's an awful lot of names that haven't come to light yet that will at some point become more in the public domain. But Chelsea sort of all along, and I've known this for quite a while, that Chelsea felt that by taking the unusual stance they took, as in the new consortium, of flagging it straight away to the Premier League, the FA and UEFA, that that should in a sense, for want of a Better phrase, be rewarded with, with not a sporting sanction, but just a fine. And of course, I think the fact they negotiated a hundred million pound discount from the get go indicates that this was in their thinking from the very start.
- [36:57]
Adam Leventhal
It's a really interesting story and an angle on football takeovers as well, because in my time I've known of takeovers that have not gone ahead because owners have looked at the books and gone, whoa, whoa, whoa, that is too hot to handle for us. We'll step away and we'll go somewhere else. Thank you very much. So, Phil, where do you stand on this? You know, is it good that sort of Chelsea, as Simon said, dob themselves in and they basically said, yep, we might need to be held slightly accountable here, but we weren't the custodians and therefore the club shouldn't be punished in a sporting sense. Where do you stand on it?
- [37:38]
Phil Hay
What you're talking about there with prospective owners coming in, looking at the books and saying, no, thank you. I've seen a bit of that as well. When Massimo Celino bought Leeds United, he said quite openly, I never do due diligence, because if I did, I'd find far too many things that would put me off buying a club. Now, Chalino was kind of one of a kind and said a lot of things. Where I think this is slightly different is that I suspect there aren't too many things in the average club accounts which are going to run you into trouble immediately with, say, the FA or the Premier League or anything else. And that's clearly what Chelsea spotted in their accounts, or at least the Boli Clearlake consulting when they started to look at the books while they were trying to buy from Abramovich. And I think the reduction of £100 million from the asking price is really pertinent because they could quite clearly see coming down the track there were going to be some major liabilities potentially with this that were going to cost them. So I think it will or might help Chelsea that they did self report and as Simon put it, dubbed themselves in. The problem is that admitting to an offense doesn't change the fact that an offense was committed in the first place. And it's important to say again that Chelsea haven't actually submitted a plea to this. I don't think so. We don't know whether they're going to plead guilty or fight the charges. I don't think a commission that hears the case can put too much weight on the fact that this seemingly happened under old owners and purely under old owners. The owners aren't Chelsea. Chelsea are still the same entity. Whether Abramovich has the keys or Boehly and Clearlake have the keys, they still play in the Premier League. They won trophies through the period that the FAA are investigating. So the prime question is going to be did these alleged breaches give them an unfair sporting advantage? And just to single out Hazard, he was a massive player for Chelsea. I think he won seven trophies in all while he was there. So if Chelsea signed him or other major names in circumstances where they shouldn't have done, the matter of gaining a sporting advantage has to be looked at. But where this will end, I mean, let's not even bother trying to guess. The Manchester City 115 charges case is still stuck in the long grass. So God knows how long this one's going to take.
- [39:39]
Adam Leventhal
It's interesting, Phil, and I'm going to ask Simon the question. The first comment under the article where Simon has explained these charges is, I bet this comes to a conclusion long before the City charges do. So we've got a race, we've got a race here. When are we potentially going to find out, Simon? You know, when is this likely to come to a head for Chelsea?
- [39:59]
Simon Johnson
I can't say like it's going to be October 3rd. You know, I can't be that specific, but I do sense confidence that this will be resolved pretty swiftly. I think Chelsea want it to be resolved swiftly. Just sort of another thing to add is that it's seen as more of an HMRC issue than a PSR issue.
- [40:21]
Phil Hay
Seen by who? Simon? By the club or by the end by the club?
- [40:25]
Simon Johnson
They've already settled, come to a settlement with hmrc? There was a independent accountant firm that looked at Chelsea's books and these payments and so I'm told. It's obviously difficult for me to verify, having not seen all the deals in question, but I was reassured that the alleged payments, even if they had been put on the books, that they would have still complied with psr. So that wasn't an issue. As for a punishment, I think, you know, initially when the story broke, there was a sort of caution that Chelsea didn't want to be sort of seen as being too. That everything is ship shape and going their way. But within a few hours it changed. And the feeling is that Chelsea do think that they will only be fined. And I think that will, if that is the case, inevitably that is going to attract an awful lot of criticism from rival fans, let alone anybody else. Because as Phil rightly said, we're not talking about players that flopped here, we're talking about really key players that. I mean, Eden Hazard is one of Chelsea's greatest ever players and there will be question marks whether, you know, Chelsea were able to benefit from the way that the club was run back under Abramovic. But yeah, I mean, if you're Chelsea, if they do only just get a fine, they'll be absolutely delighted to put this behind them. And we'll think that, that they have also set a precedent for other clubs in future to sort of tell on themselves because it shows that you might actually benefit.
- [42:07]
Phil Hay
The thing that will dictate the speed of this will be the way in which Chelsea played. If they plead guilty to the charges, or most of them, then this can probably move forward pretty quickly. If they choose to fight them, then it will drag its heels. That is essentially one of the big problems with the City case is that A, there are so many charges and B, City are vehemently contesting them. And because of that it's got massively tangled in legal arguments. So that may be one way out of this quickly, but we'll need to see what Chelsea do.
- [42:34]
Simon Johnson
And just quickly to add Alan, the deadline for Chelsea to respond is tomorrow, I believe. And there was a question mark that, oh, you know, 74 charges, that's an awful lot. The FA were. There was sort of indications that they'd be open to the idea of giving an extension because there were so many charges for Chelsea to respond to. And I've been assured that Chelsea won't ask for an extension. I think that's another indication that they feel that. However they sort of formally reply to the FA that this case could be wrapped up pretty quickly.
- [43:07]
Adam Leventhal
Sounds like that's what they want. So they can just kick on with the future and try as best as they can to forget about the past. Simon, thank you very much indeed. I'm sure your short term future is to just pick up your souvenir set of lederhosen before you fly back. Thank you very much.
- [43:22]
Simon Johnson
Already packed.
- [43:23]
Adam Leventhal
Pick up a pair for me as well. Phil, thank you very much as always.
- [43:27]
Phil Hay
Thank you.
- [43:27]
Adam Leventhal
Thanks very much for listening. Matt Davis Adams is here. Tomorrow with the preview, head to a big weekend of Premier League football which includes Chelsea's trip to Old Trafford. We'll catch you then. You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabre and Jay Beal. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and Adie Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, Search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an Athletic Media Company production hey, it's Marc Maron from WTF here to let you know that this podcast is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. And I'm sure the reason you're listening to this podcast right now is because.
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