Carl Anchor (2:40)

Yeah, I think when you look at how this year in terms of 2025, as the calendar year has progressed, his role has just got bigger and bigger as it's come on. And going into the Brentford game, I there was a legit debate about whether he would start again up front because Victor Yerez is now fit again. But he started and scored after 11 minutes, yet another header. I think he scored more headers than anyone in the Premier League this calendar year. So you can see he's just got the smell for it at the moment. And I think with the record that you mentioned, the unbeaten record, I think the good thing about it so far has been as it's kind of crept up on people, I don't think there's been much focus on the that because Arsenal have just been able to kind of put the run together rather than focusing on have they lost the game or not. Hopefully us talking about it doesn't jinx that, but yeah, I think the last few weeks and months have gone by fairly smoothly, even with the injuries.

Ayo Akimolere (3:42)

Yeah, I mean, we're going to talk about Declan Rice a little later on, Carl, but someone like Mikel Marino, I mean, considering Arsenal have really struggled to find that number nine and cement that position, this is a player that keeps coming up trumps. But if you look last night again, I mean, he created the chance for saka, played a lovely ball to him. As, as I see it out, I ended up scoring the second goal for Arsenal.

Arthur Rocher (4:00)

He attacks crosses like it's 1998. I'm loving it. James McNicholas wrote an excellent piece that you can see on the Athletic right now asking at what point do we stop calling Mikel Mourinho a makeshift striker and just start calling him a striker? And okay, his game doesn't carry the same finesse as some of the best number nines in the Premier League. But my word, isn't he effective. Art's correct. He has a smell for goal in and around the six yard box. He's got great second movement when he's going for crosses. So it's not just, I'm going to run to the near post. It is, I'm going to run to the near post, stop, let the defender's momentum take him a little bit further, get that extra bit of space and then I can go attack the cross. And it's those tiny little things where we know his goal celebration comes from the same goal celebration his dad did. I Wonder what other tips he picks up from his dad about how to attack crosses and create, because this is fantastic. He is a very, very good cog in a footballing machine that is likely to win one of the big trophies at the end of the season.

Ayo Akimolere (5:00)

Let's talk about the other players that made a start yesterday are Ben White, Martin Odegaard and I think Nonny Madweke as well. All back in the squad, Madueke and White in particular for that first goal. And I think Ben White did not get a man of the match very good for Arsenal in terms of going into it again, strength in depth.

Carl Anchor (5:16)

Yeah, I think when you look at the squad, everyone over the last couple years has spoken about the new signings and how they've raised the ceiling at Arsenal, but I think in doing that you've raised the floor at the same time. And Ben White's probably the prime example of that because when you look at his involvement this season, he only plays in the Premier League. His only other game was the opening day at Manchester United. Then he comes in last night and plays unbelievably well. I think what was really encouraging was you saw the overlaps that you used to see him make when Bukayo, Saka and him were having their kind of fun a few years ago. But also I think what really impressed Mikel Arteta was how proactive he was in his defending throughout the game. And I think that's where you see why Jurrien Timber is so depended upon in this kind of stretch of games, because he is so solid defensively. But when you have someone like Ben White who can add something different going forward, it just, it gives you. You a whole different option on that side and it really, I think, frees up the right winger in a different way. We saw that with Madawake early on and you probably see it with Saka as well now that I think White's going to have to play probably a few more games with Moschiera also going down injured.

Ayo Akimolere (6:40)

This is the thing, Carl. I'm just wondering about how Arsenal sort of solved this problem from the centre back position and I know it seems to be working so far, but you lose the likes of Gabriel, you lose the likes of Saliba, who you are, you're stuck staunt center backs. And then obviously Mosquera and Inappe have now come in. Could this be a problem if they don't have a fit center pairing? Because there's also a conversation that Califiori could also play in that position as well.

Arthur Rocher (7:01)

This is What Arsenal have tried to future proof against in you have back to back to back second place finishes and I think Mikel Arteta and the recruiting team have really looked at those second place finishes and those near misses in the Champions League and gone. What's gone wrong? I think the reason why they have recruited so many center backs and so many hybrid center backs, sort of this fullback player who can play center back is because in the 22, 23 season it seemed like they were going to run away with it and then all of a sudden you have to replace a center back of the quality of William Saliba with Rob holding. No disrespect to Rob holding, but it's very, very different. And I think now they've got a bevy of defensive riches now. I don't think there's many football teams in the Premier League that can lose their two starting center backs and keep on trucking in the way that Arsenal have at this point. The fact that you have this injury change against Brentford and then it's just Jurrien Timber coming off the bench and I was watching this on British broadcast Sky Sports and they were mentioning Timber's on the bench today because he's meant to be getting a rest and he just gets on, he just gets on with it. Right. And Timber is one of those incredibly brilliant defenders that I think we're going to see a lot more as we get closer to 2030. This hybrid sort of. Are you a fullback? Are you a center back? He's, he's got this sort of diminutive size and yet he's so incredibly sturdy. And I mean that in both sense of the word in that. Well, apart from that whole a horrible ACL injury, he can just keep on ticking. He's quite hard to sort of knock off balance. I'm doing the high end motion there like I'm playing against myself. So when you can lose three of your center backs and you can still bring on someone like Yuri and Dimba, you're in a very good place Traditionally. As a Manchester United fan, I'm used to hearing Sir Alex folks and other managers talk about how you need four strikers. This idea that you can also have four brilliant center backs and also at least two of your fullbacks who can play center back as well. This is strength and depth. This is strength and depth in a way that very few Premier League clubs or any clubs across Europe have. I think Arsenal have future proofs themselves and got ready for, for a time where there's just going to be, well, the expectation is a lot of these players are going to be playing between 40 and 60 games between every single season now. So to have this sort of rotation is good. Okay, yeah, I absolutely hear you. There are questions because there are questions about centre back pairings because often talk about it's not just you want to have one person in your team, you want to have that sort of almost telekinetic link. So Saliba and Gabriel are the number one pairing and then I suppose we've just gone past the second pairing and now you've got to see what happens next. But I'll pass this to Art in that how many different computations of Arsenal center back pairings do you think Arteta can go through?

Carl Anchor (9:31)

Well, when you there mentioned okay, at least two of the fullbacks can go into center back. I think everyone's forgetting Ben White was also a center back before he was the right. Exactly. So there are so many different ways you can kind of set up that backline. I think for if we're talking about immediate term Aston Villa away on Saturday at 12:30 UK time, I would probably go with White right back with Timber and in Capier center backs again with Califiore at left back just to get that momentum going. I think it was really interesting to see where Timber went when he came on because at that moment you don't know what's going to happen and you think is he, is he just going to slot in at right back? But think the connection that White had with Madueke was so strong that he just couldn't break it up. So yeah, I, I think you'd probably see that more often. But also at the start of the week, Mika Arteta did say that Saliba, his injury was only a matter of days, so you'd hope by the time maybe not the Aston Villa game, but the Wolves game next weekend rolls around, he'll be fine. That's a slot back in.

Ayo Akimolere (10:43)

Okay, well let's talk about Declan Rice. Obviously Timber we've just spoken about and Saka were rested on the bench. Declan Rice started but then came off with seven minutes left to play. We've heard it's a minor calf injury. Worry for Arsenal fans or let's just see how this one plays out.

Carl Anchor (10:59)

I'd say a bit of both because it's quite hard to figure out exactly what the injury is when you ask in a press conference and the answer doesn't come back. But what I would say is that there have been points earlier this season where he has come off seemingly injured. So the Example in my head is Crystal palace at home. He came off feeling his back with about 10 minutes to go. And again after the game, Mikel Arteta couldn't really say what the issue was or how long he was going to be out, but he was back on the bench for, I believe it was Brighton at home in the Carabao cup just a few days later. And then he was starting and scoring again at the the weekend against Burnley. So he has got previous for kind of taking a knock late in game and coming back a few days after. So you'd hope that's the case again because he is such an important part of this team.

Arthur Rocher (11:55)

You're in the room very often with Mikel Arteta. It feels like he keeps his cards incredibly close to his chest when you ask him about any form of injury information. I'm trying to build an FPL team here. I'm struggling.

Carl Anchor (12:07)

I think he's probably the worst in the league for FPL managers and it's deliberate because he, I think, just wants to have every single advantage going into that time where he hands in the team sheet and the opposition manager finds out what the team is. I think when you're looking at the way he talks about team news, he's done it like that for years now, say, especially post match. I wouldn't pay too much mind to what he says because he has the stock line of we have to see tomorrow. It'll be more about looking at what he says pre match.

Ayo Akimolere (12:44)

Carl, he's just one of five players in this Arsenal squad to feature in all 14 Premier League games. I mean, doesn't that just underline just how important he is for this team?

Arthur Rocher (12:52)

He's essential. Arsenal have won the best starting levels in the Premier League. You can argue left or right of that. I think it's 1 1B. But it's the squad, the level of the squad, the strength and depth in the squad. Apart from Declan Rice, I think he's the one where if he was injured and did miss six or seven games, that's when you start going, oh, could it be someone else that sneaks in? Could he actually have a title race in there? I think it's really good that you mentioned the fact that how often he's played. Declan Rice tends to play the most minutes out of any outfielder season on season on season. So he first came to my attention towards the end of the 2019-2020 season when I was a Southampton reporter. So I was doing a piece on James Ward Prowse and how he was Seemingly an ironman. And he was, I think one of maybe five outfield players who had played every single minute of the Premier League season. And one of them was Declan Rice. And Rice has just kept on trucking. His ability to avoid injury and keep playing more and more minutes in an incredibly congested part of the pitch is remarkable. I think one thing that once got brought up to me by a number of former professional football players is, and please forgive me here, I'm going to compare him to Jack Wiltshire. But the comparison was made that Wilshire got injured on two or three occasions because he wanted to be a sort of tough tackling, battling midfielder. And there were times where he would gamble and put his body in 30, 70 chances to win the ball back and that leg being stuck there, impact injury and that would increase the, the level of impact injury. Whereas again, some former pros explain it to me, players like Rice and players like Ward Prowse at the time were being a little bit more conservative, were getting a lot better at going, this is a 30, 70 chance for me to win the ball. I'm not going to risk it here, let me see where the ball bounces and then I can contest for that 50, 50. I back myself to have the strength to do that. And when you're Declan Rice, when you have physical abilities he has, and also the aerial anticipation he has, the spatial awareness and the match reading ability he has, he doesn't put his body in those riskier situations that players like Wilshire or players of, you know, other English materials of the past used to do as well. So I don't think Rice will have as many impact injuries as we might expect. A defensive midfielder or box to box midfielder, we can get to that in a bit in the past. So I'm not going to read too much into what Arteta says, but it feels like I think maybe he'll be okay.

Ayo Akimolere (15:12)

You get that sense too. All right, well, after the game, look, Mikel Arteta also spoke about the workload on players and called for the authorities to consider the well being of players. Not the first time we've heard this. Carl, do you think anything's going to change? You look at the schedule already, while it's been quite intense?

Arthur Rocher (15:25)

No, unfortunately not. I don't think anything's going to change. In 2019. I went to Brussels for a Fifpro conference with Vincent Kompany there. Company who was at the time head coach of Anderlecht and Thief Pro made it very, very clear you cannot have football players playing 60 games a season, season on season, summer tournaments, more summer tournaments, more competitions without approaching burnout. And company made the point that we are going to approach burnout and we need some form of remedy. I think one of the problems is I think every single football fan agrees that there is too much football being played. But I think if you've got 10 football fans in a room and went, what football game should we get rid of? It's going to be chaos. So I think this is the situation. I think we're in a time of just more because we're at a time where football is increasingly side by side with content. And if you are a FIFA president, a UEFA president, someone in charge of any form of football confederation, you want to make sure the people you're in charge of earn more money. And a very good way to make sure everyone earns more money is to just have more matches. And if the players complain, you just go, well, here's more wages. And I think that's sort of the tricky situation we've got here. But I think one thing that Arteta. This is Arteta being sneaky again. He is absolutely correct in complaining about protecting his player burnout. He's also played two or three players in Arsenal to points where their hamstrings basically exploded. And you're going, could you not have rotated the squad before you had how many grade three hamstring tears? Was it Art last season?

Carl Anchor (16:50)

Havertz, Gabriel and Saka.

Arthur Rocher (16:54)

Now if you're having a grade three hamstring tear, that's where the muscles falling off the bone and that's why you need the surgery. It's very rare to just skip to a grade three. You gotta go through the other ones first and that that indicates a time where players are being pushed into the red zone. Luckily, if you're an Arsenal fan, I think Arteta has learned from those incidences and that's why you now have the squad in the way it has. Saka doesn't have to play every single game now because Madueke is there. Odegaard being injured is not so much of a problem because Eze is there. We've talked about the left back situation. Miles Lewiskelly is chilling in the back and can do plenty of things right now. And I think this is me trying to put two and two together. Maybe I've got 222 here, but I would suspect two or three Champions League quarter finalists clubs. So sort of the old money clubs are probably looking at Arsenal going, could we build a squad that way to avoid our version of burnout. I think Arteta's been ahead of the curve just a little bit with squad building and yes, absolutely. Way too many games of football, way too many hamstring injuries. I'm just a journalist and I'm already exhausted. I'm getting new problems following these following these football clubs.

Ayo Akimolere (18:00)

Right, next, let's dive a little deeper into the role of Rice at Arsenal.

Athletic FC Podcast Host (18:06)

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Arthur Rocher (21:17)

Foreign.

Ayo Akimolere (21:21)

Let's move on up. And because this week you've written on the evolution of Declan Rice for the athletic at 105 million, that was a big, big deal for Arsenal at the time. I think it was back in 2023. I mean this is a player that many thought was a dm, but since his being at Arsenal seems to be a little bit more than that, talk to us about his evolution.

Carl Anchor (21:39)

Well it's strange one because I don't know if Carl agrees but even when he was at West Ham, I don't think he was a defensive midfielder. He always was a to box. But I feel like some midfielders just get typed cast if they have maybe one attribute that sticks out more than others. And for me before he joined Arsenal, obviously as people who write about football, we write about who the incoming signings are and when I watched Rice as a West Ham player I said his usp. So his unique selling point was his anticipation of the ball. And that's kind of what Carl was alluding to earlier, earlier in terms of not going for the first challenge but kind of having the eye for where the ball might break. So that was what really stood out. But you can really make use of anticipation anywhere on the pitch. And I think in terms of evolution, his first week at Arsenal, so before he even played a Premier League minute in pre season he played against Monaco and he was more of a number six in that game. So this was an Emirates cup game. But he. You could see the stature in him and there was times where, yeah, he'd make good tackles, but he'd also make really good runs with the ball, carrying the ball up the pitch from deeper areas. And then the second game he played was against Manchester City in the Community Shield and that was when Arteta first used him as more of a number eight. People won't really remember it because it was a Community Shield game and but in that game he did a really good man marking job on Rodri and he was pressing again, similar to what I mentioned about White, but you'd almost expect him to be a number 10. The positions he was picking up when he was pressing Rodri. So from that moment you could see he wasn't just one type of midfielder. And it's been great to see over the last couple of years, he's added something to his game almost every six months. So in his first season, after the kind of fabled trip to Dubai, if we're looking back, he came back with the corners. And Arsenal's first game back was against Crystal palace. And he. I think the first goal they score is one of those corners. Rice to Gabriel. And since then I believe he's assisted 10 goals from set pieces, which is more than anyone else in the Premier League. The only player that's close to him is Bruno Fernandes with nine. The next closest, the tally is five. Then when you look at how he's performed last season, you see the free kicks come into play. And I think as a personality, he really kind of leads what's going on on the pitch as well there. I don't know if you guys saw it, but during the North London Derby, I think it was after Eze second goal, so Arsenal's third. The cameras picked him up saying, let's kill him.

Carl Anchor (24:44)

I think it's. Maybe the language isn't great, but it was such a good moment because it just shows you what the emotion is like. Because he, I think, is one of the players you can really pick up on what is needed in a particular moment and how to drive that emotion to his teammates. So, yeah, there's loads of things where he's not just a one trick pony. He's got so many skills to him.

Arthur Rocher (25:09)

He's the most improved player since the COVID seasons. Of all the players in the Premier League who've been here since the 1920 season, the player he was then and the player he was now, that jump is phenomenal. And I think the way he's done it feels a little bit like he's a video game character.

Carl Anchor (25:27)

Yeah.

Ayo Akimolere (25:28)

Yeah.

Arthur Rocher (25:28)

So you get to the end of the season, you collect all your XP and you go, okay, I'm gonna put my XP now into set piece delivery. And it feels super simple that way, but it is. He's such an exception to the rule of progress as a football player. You're not supposed to disappear for three months in the summer and then reappear and you've got a brand new move. You don't. You're not supposed to be able to play this many minutes in the way that he is. And I think there's a lot of things Declan Rice does that feel really simple. If you're playing a video game, he does things that are just a button press. Daniel's story talks about this a lot, about how certain crosses or certain headers in FIFA or football manager or anything just feel like a button press. But in real life you are doing such quick computations to, to work out where you need to stand and how you have to hit the ball that you can do it 10 times and you can might get 10 different results. And yet Dean Rice finds a consistency in his actions that, that is brilliant. I watched him play for England against kosovo in a 5, 3 match at St. Mary's in the 1920 season and I remember he was meant to be the deepest midfielder there and he lost his runner two or three times in a game where Kosovo weren't really meant to score three goals. I think at least one of them is Declan Rice not checking his shoulders. And I this is probably why you're at West Ham. And then he just kept building and building and building. And now if you went Declan Rice isn't great at tracking his runners. You get laughed at because that's one of the best things he's got.

Ayo Akimolere (26:55)

How many of those last ditch defending moments have we seen this season?

Arthur Rocher (26:58)

Exactly. You think about one thing that again writing as a Manchester United reporter, we know for a fact Ole Gunnar Solskjaer was interested in him him at least once. We know that Chelsea were interested in in signing him sort of doing a homecoming. Frank Lampard want to sign him. Wasn't quite sure if he was going to be a center back option there or again the number six option. But one thing that stuck out especially towards not quite the Europa Conference League victory for West Ham was that he is exceptional at delaying counter attacks in a way that I think not to the same levels. N' Golo Kante but in a way that n' Golo Kante would be proud of. So this very, very simple concept of if I just stand here as you. As if it's a three on one and I stand here, you can't get the pass away. And then I give more time for everyone else to get back. So it stops being a three on one. It's a three on three. And a very loud example of this, I'm not quite a good example. A very loud example of Declan Rice delaying counter attacks is of course the game against Liverpool where it was him versus how many. It's him versus four. And you're going, well, he's they're cooked and okay. He doesn't actually touch the ball. I think he barely touches the ball during this counter attack. But just the way he stood and the way he controls his body and the way he doesn't bite means Liverpool can't quite move in the way they want to. And of course Liverpool fans will listen to this and go, it's nonsense. We absolutely buggered that counter attack balls. I don't think that that counterattack gets slowed down and is that ineffective if Declan Rice isn't doing the thing he's doing in that point in time. And that's the sort of thing that makes football managers go, you're my defensive midfielder. He's also got a bunch of skills now as we increasingly getting more compatible midfield partners next to him. Where you're going, oh, wait, no, why do I want you stood there on the halfway line? I want you going up and down and up and down and up and down. But there was definitely experimentation of Declan Rice as the six. Then Arteta seemed to have settled upon Rice and Jorginho and that one really seemed to work because Jorginho was just a little bit more as a progressive passer because I think at the time Rice in midfield was a little bit too conservative, a little bit passing sideways and backwards. And then Jorginho helped there. And then of course you go through two or three other midfield partners. But now this partnership with Rice and Zubamende. Zubamendi takes care of two or three things that Rice perhaps is an exception at Rice can now play up and down. But also I think Zubamendi is learning things of Declan Rice as well. So you've got two players that, I mean, rice cost 100 million. I am of the personal opinion that Zubamendi should have cost 100 million million because he's that good and they're just boss in midfields. And it's. It's really annoying if you're not an Arsenal fan.

Carl Anchor (29:36)

I know some people see this Arsenal, maybe this Rice, as the finished version, but I think there's still so much more to come because there have been injuries that have meant Arteta's not been able to fully experiment the way he's wanted to. Arsenal went for a spell of three to four weeks where they had six forward players injured, and at some points, Arteta's job has been made maybe not easier, but he hasn't had the dilemmas that he could have in the coming weeks.

Ayo Akimolere (30:11)

Yeah, very quickly, I also want to talk about leadership, because that's something that's always been a tone to Declan Rice, and we look at different types of leaders in a football team. Just because you're wearing the captain's armband doesn't necessarily make you a leader. You've got one like Martin Odegaard, who's a much quieter lead. You've got someone like Saka that can wear the Arband, who's a different kind of leader, but Declan Rice, vocally, physically, the way he implements himself on the game. Can we talk about that style of leadership? Because, you know, it feels a bit like a Xhaka kind of role as well, doesn't it?

Carl Anchor (30:37)

Yeah, yeah. I remember when Odegaard was given the captaincy, so summer 2022, there was, I guess, a lot of surprise externally because of the way he is. I'd say he is. Odegaard is still quite vocal as a captain, but with Rice, it's maybe just a lot more traditional in terms of what people would expect from a leader or a captain. Of course, he was captain of West Ham when they won the Conference League at Arsenal in the Bayern Munich game. When he did get the captain's armband, his game really seemed to go just on an upward trajectory. And there was a moment where he tries to make one of those kind of lung busting runs for wood. He loses the ball and it drops to Harry Kane. And his reaction is to just track back immediately, put in an amazing sliding tackle on Kane, and then just off instinct, he gets up and just really kind of G's up the crowd. And it's moments like that where you see he gets it. And I think that's just as big a part of being a leader as just being someone who is vocal. It's understanding the emotional moments and emotional beats of a game and really feeding into that.

Arthur Rocher (31:54)

He's the captain. In my eyes. Declan Rice is the captain of Arsenal. It is very, very clear to me that Declan Rice will be the England captain after Harry Kane. My friend Paul Gibbons likes to point out there's a game where England are playing away and Harry Kane scores and this is where there's loads of cups, loads of cups being thrown and Bryce picks up one of the cups mockingly and drinks it and Kane is pointing to him and my friend Paul go. This is the clearest display of that guy's next. You can feel it in that Rice is being put up for more media opportunities when the England national team are playing. He is very much front facing. I think his, even the way he talks now compared to the way he used to talk in 2021. Very, very different. And definitely feels like two or three people in suits have put their hand on each other going, it's you next.

Ayo Akimolere (32:46)

Stop being the Joker. Stop it with the Jollof Rice. Let's go talk some really football talk.

Arthur Rocher (32:51)

I love it. I, I'm, I'm a huge fan of him. I can absolutely see why they're going to Solskjaer want him at Manchester United. I absolutely could have seen how that would have worked. There is a game maybe even two seasons back where Rice has played well for Arsenal and he's doing the post match sort of. You got your. He's still in his Adia slides and he's got his Arsenal kit and he's talking and he stood next to Roy Keane and Roy Keane is looking at him and this is me, forgive me for my projection of what this. And it felt like Roy Keane is looking at him half going, I'm trying to figure out who you are as a player. And also half going, how would we have worked together as teammates? It's, it's one of, it's one of those Roy Keane's stairs where he's half complimentary but also half slightly annoyed he's not at United. Again, you can say this is total production. But yeah, to me, Declan Rice is a Manchester United player. I think we've spoken about this before about how some players are spiritually someone else. So Declan Rice is spiritually a Manchester United player.

Ayo Akimolere (33:50)

To me, it's like Vert's being spiritually a Manchester City player in a certain degree. I see you.

Arthur Rocher (33:55)

Alexander Isaac is spiritually an Arsenal player.

Ayo Akimolere (33:57)

Yeah.

Arthur Rocher (33:58)

Yeah. So I don't think Declan Rice is ever going to go to Manchester United. I think he's probably, I think he's probably going to retire Arsenal having won a bunch of trophies. So again, like, congrats, enjoy the club. Well, cup.

Ayo Akimolere (34:11)

It'S not bitter at all. Right gents, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's move on because we've spoken about his attributes and just how great he is, but let's find out just where he sits amongst the great midfielders currently in the Premier League.

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Arthur Rocher (36:40)

Foreign.

Athletic FC Podcast Host (36:43)

You'Re listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimolere.

Ayo Akimolere (36:47)

Oh, before we talk about just where he ranks amidst the Premier League right now. I mean, where does he rank in terms of signings by Mikel Arteta? And we've also mentioned other coaches like Lampard and Solskjaer. Do you think he'd have been the same Declan Rice if those guys had got hold of him.

Arthur Rocher (37:02)

Oof.

Carl Anchor (37:03)

That's a really good question. I think the second part of that was probably the more intriguing one because if Frank Lampard got his wish, how would Frank Lampard molded him? Would he have molded him to be like him? Or would he have understood there's a lot more to his game? If it was Ole Gunnar Solskjaer at that time, how would Declan Rice look in midfield with Bruno Fernandes? I think that's a really interesting question because when I mentioned the set pieces earlier, you probably wouldn't have seen Rice become this guy who's so synonymous with corners and free kicks to an extent, because Bruno Fernandes probably wouldn't let him take. Take those. Those opportunities. So I think you probably don't see the Rice you're seeing now. If he went to one of those clubs earlier and in terms of where he ranks, in terms of Arteta signings, he's obviously within the top three.

Ayo Akimolere (38:03)

Who are the other two?

Carl Anchor (38:05)

For me personally, I feel like there are certain players who maybe even if they're not starters now, they still need to be recognized for what they've done for this movement. So one of those players is Gabriel Jesus. I think he completely transformed Arsenal when he joined because coming into that summer, Arsenal had just let Pierre McAbamian go in the January Alexander Lacazette, that they just let his contract run out because physically he wasn't the player that he once was. And it was a point where Arsenal just did not have a focal point. As a number nine, Gabriel Jesus comes in and he's not a focal point, but he's just a pure footballer, a pure street footballer. And it just opened up so many possibilities for the way Arsenal could play other players who are just as important. David Raya, but also Aaron Ramsdale.

Ayo Akimolere (39:01)

Ramsdale. Considering he's not there anymore, yeah, I'd.

Carl Anchor (39:04)

Say when you look at again, evolution, there are players who are maybe the first rung of an evolution that allow you to move on to the second one.

Arthur Rocher (39:13)

This is a really good point. You know, there's. There was definitely a point when Arsenal finished eighth on the Arteta. And as from the outside looking in, you're going, I have no idea how this team's going to get back in the Champions League spots. And the idea was one of them, their academy players has to go supernova. And at the time, again outside looking in, at the time I went, okay, maybe if Saka and Smith row other players from now and to the next stage. I remember being very confused when Odegaard. There was conversation about making Odegaard's loan permanent because I went, surely that's Smith Rowe's job. But no, the team has evolved, the team has changed. And this is the. A lot of football fans from top six or teams that want to get in the top six, bring up Arteta and bring up the bad spell of Arteta in December 2020 and say Arteta managed to survive, that we need to keep with our manager and if we go through that, maybe we can go to where Arsenal are now. And I think they overlook how the team in December 2020 is very, very, very, very different to team now and how that took not just changes in recruitment, but also changes from Arteta as a coach. Coach and Ark can tell me off.

Carl Anchor (40:20)

No, you're not. Because I think people do oversimplify that theory. So when Eric Ten haggle, Reuben Amram were having tough times. Enzo Maresca at Chelsea, everyone points to Arteta as the example. But that period in December 2020 where they weren't seven games without a Premier League win, it was solved by. And Arsenal fans who are listening are going to be so tired of hearing this. But Smith Row coming in when players were unavailable through Covid on Boxing Day against Chelsea, it just gave a completely different dynamic because until that point, Arteta was still playing this back three. But Smith Row comes in, is a natural number 10 and that just gets the ball moving. So in some of these tricky times, you just need a moment, a player to offer something different to get you moving. So, yeah, and other players have done that as well. You look at Takhiro Tomiyasu coming into right back, then Ben White, then Jiren. Timber. It's all about, as we said earlier, not just raising the ceiling, but doing the same with the floor.

Ayo Akimolere (41:29)

Okay, Karl, just before we go, just to wrap this up, comparable to other midfielders in the Premier League, I'm thinking of a very fit Rodri Ballon d'.

Carl Anchor (41:37)

Or.

Ayo Akimolere (41:37)

Rodri. I'm thinking Caicedo Renders, Gravenbach, Macalisa Tonali, Bruno Guimares, you know, Elliot Anderson. Now, where does he sit in the.

Arthur Rocher (41:45)

There top five, maybe top three at this point in time, Arsenal need to win some trophies before we can have some serious conversations about him being top one or top two, but he's on the way. Take my Premier League pundit half for a little bit and put my international football team hat on. I need Declan Rice to not be knackered at the World cup, right, because he's gonna. He's gonna be playing a Lot of minutes between now and the end of the season. And one, one thing that stuck out like a sore thumb for me during Euro 2024 is the goal England concede against the Netherlands in the semi final, where Xavi Simons him off the ball and goes for it. I remember watching it real time going, that doesn't happen. Declan Rice doesn't get bullied off the ball. And I'm, I'm pretty sure Xavi Simmons isn't that strong. And now, again, if, if I play that clip to you at this point in time, look at what Xavi Simmons did to Declan Rice, you'll be like, how did that happen? And it's the thing of he plays a ridiculous amount of football. Can he maintain those levels in April, May? He's going to need to do it all through June, July, if Arsenal do win the big trophy this season. Yep, amazing, fantastic. He's also going to get 14 days off this summer. If the good things happen for England and they make a deep run into the World cup, which I think they will, I think they'll probably reach the quarterfinals. At the very least. Declan Rice is not going to have too much time off between seasons. So if we want to have a conversation about Declan Rice winning big individual trophies and going down as one of the big, big, great century midfielders of our time, he is going to have to do it season and season and season. He's got a lot of miles on the clock already and he's good, if not very good. But before I can call him, great, I need a couple more trophies, season on season, and then maybe possibly like something nice for England.

Ayo Akimolere (43:22)

Let's see if Carl's theory stacks up. Let's see the Declan Rice in May, but also hopefully the Declan Rice for the World cup as well. All right, gents, appreciate your time. Art, Carl, thanks for joining us. Thanks for listening as well. Matt Davies Adams will be with you tomorrow. Looking ahead to the weekend's Premier League action. We'll catch you soon.

Athletic FC Podcast Host (43:42)

You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabre and Jay Beal. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and Avi Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows. Search for the Athletic on all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC podcast is an athletic media company production.

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