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The Athletic fc Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. England are off to the World cup and typically it's thanks to their captain, Harry Kane. So how important is he to their chances next summer? Alright, in with us today we have Charlie Eccleshare, who covered Harry Kane for us when he was at Spurs. Good to see you, Charlie.

C (1:52)

Hello, how are you doing?

B (1:53)

And also our German football writer, Seb Stafford. Bloh.

A (1:57)

Thanks for having me. Are you?

B (1:58)

We'll also be joined later on by former England goalkeeper Rob Green. But first, Charlie, England are through to the World Cup. I guess the big question is how much do their hopes rest on the fitness of the big man Harry Kane as well?

C (2:12)

Yeah, I mean, I was think I was looking at this because he. He was subbed off in all of the knockout games at the Euros and obviously a part of that was because I guess he wasn't completely healthy. If he can go there and be in, you know, tip top shape. Hopefully, you know, Bayern have the Bundesliga 1 in March or something like that. Sorry, Seb, that wouldn't be a great story to write about, but for our purposes, that'd be quite useful. He can kind of, you know, feel reasonably well rested. Yeah, I mean, he's clearly still the. The guy around who the rest of the team kind of looks to for inspiration and kind of orients around and. Yeah, just another kind of classically efficient performance from him last night.

D (2:48)

It's Harry Kane, the England captain.

A (2:51)

There was never any doubt.

B (2:54)

Yes, Seb, I was looking into Harry Kane and, you know, I mean, he's broken various records, whether it be in the Premier League, whether it now be in the Bundesliga, also for England as well. But, you know, he's England's record goal scorer with 76 goals. Fifteen of those have come in major tournaments. But there are still questions as whether or not he could have done better. I mean, I don't even know where they come from, but I wonder why those questions still exist.

A (3:18)

Well, I think this is just a habit that exists around England centre forwards. If you look back, there's always been that conversation. It surrounded Wayne Rooney, it surrounded Michael Owen. There was a period before €96, I'm aging myself here. When people wanted Alan Shearer dropped because he wasn't scoring regularly enough, Lineker got criticized a little bit. So it's one of those things that we do. And I think also because England have gone so long without winning a major tournament, you have a focus on the great hope of each era. And, you know, it's been Rooney, it's been Owen, it's been Beckham. This for much of this generation, it's been Kane. And so when things don't go well, he's a target. And I would say I don't necessarily think it's always undeserved, because I think if you look back at Euro 2024, I think one of the regrets England might have is that Charlie mentioned this. Kane was never fit for that tournament. And actually he wasn't fit at the end of Bayern's domestic season. He came off Real Madrid, I think, in the second leg of a Champions League semi final. And he just wasn't the same. And that's difficult because on the one hand, if you're Harry Kane, you're expected to play. You're going to be criticized if you're not there and you're not fit. On the other hand, if you are not fit and playing and not living up to Your potential also going to get criticized. I think this is just a hazard of. Of the job, really. But I don't think there's. I don't think England could have asked for a better center forward during this era.

C (4:53)

I do think, yeah, the key thing, like Seb mentions there, is that, you know, if you're not winning things and everything gets viewed through that prism, if you do win things, then, you know, the fact that you're the leading goal scorer or whatever, then you become the absolute hero. But until you actually win something big, there are always going to be question marks and you're always going to. Because you're constantly understanding, well, how. How is it that this team isn't winning anything? And so you look for every possible explanation. And maybe one of those explanations is that, you know, are we too reliant on Guy? Is he not enough of a team player? You kind of reach for any kind of explanation. So Kane becomes just another possible way of understanding how it is that this very good team that's got so close hasn't actually yet got over the line. And I guess added to that the context that Kane was for so long pretty much like the best player to have never won anything. I mean, he really was that. That kind of added fuel to that particular fire.

B (5:44)

Yeah, I mean, that. This is the one, isn't it, Seb, Are England too reliant on Harry Kane? Because we talk about, you know, England not quite picking up a trophy under his tenure as captain, but I mean, there are also another 10 players on that team as well, and a manager, let's face it.

A (5:59)

Yeah, I think so in the England conversation. I think it's a little bit outdated. Sort of. We just said there about sort of focusing on individual players. I think that's a legacy of 20, 30 years ago where England didn't have the talent really to. To reach the kind of the final four, final rounds of a World cup or European Championship. Now, I think if you're the couple of players in this England squad, and I don't think we need to go through the kind of the routine of naming them, but the couple of players who, when Harry Kane gets criticized, it's quite convenient because there are quite a few players in that squad who have never really, I don't think, reached their potential internationally, have never really replicated. It's kind of like holdover conversation from the 1990s when we're talking about, you're so great for your club, but why can't you play and, you know, for England and where's our left side of midfielder, all that kind of stuff. But I do think there's some merit to it because Kane is such a big figure, he's such an accessible talking point for so many people. Even at tournament time, when you have people that aren't necessarily week to week football fans, you know, they can see, oh, what's wrong with Harry Kane. It's very easy to grasp that. But I think there are, you know, there are some shortcomings, there are some, you know, structural issues in the team that have kind of transcended areas and that the Kane conversation has been an easy distraction from. So, yeah, it's difficult. It's really difficult.

B (7:15)

Yeah. We're going to talk about later whether or not Kane is underappreciated, Charlie, but I do wonder if a little part of, I guess some of the criticisms around Harry Kane are to do with his demeanor. He seems pretty normal dad like figure. Do you know what I mean?

C (7:28)

Like, he's not, you know, I don't.

B (7:30)

Think that's offensive, but, like, I just think he seems like a really nice guy.

C (7:35)

Yeah. One of my favorite details about Harry Kane is, do you remember in, like that 2021 lockdown season when, you know, you weren't meant to be getting your hair cut and that sort of thing and obviously footballers still were. Had these incredibly, you know, close crops or whatever. Kane had lockdown hair. He was, you know, he was like us. He was the only football and he's like the most elite footballer, but he was the only one.

B (7:55)

Don't say lockdown here to Seb. Sorry, mate.

A (7:57)

You know what? You know what? Like, I remain pretty close crop during lockdown, so.

C (8:03)

Well, you're just following the trend of all that.

A (8:04)

I was, I was just cool. I was a cool guy. Yeah, yeah.

C (8:07)

Like, things like that. Like, he's so. He's a really interesting. Like, he's the most un. Superstar. Superstar. And I think sometimes that helps him in some ways maybe. But I also think it does make him undervalued because, like, how you present yourself does really matter in this, in this kind of context. I mean, he's, he's such a. I don't know who runs his social media accounts, but they feel very authentic, which again, feels very unusual. There can be something hard to relate to Harry Kane, like, because he's basically so unbelievably driven and professional, which I think most people can't really relate to. They can relate to more a classically, you know, like a Gaza or someone like that. Someone who's flawed and has these demons and that sort of thing. That's a more kind of compelling story as well. Whereas Kane is just so driven and dedicated and. And I don't think, you know, he's not one for, like, gushy emotions. When spurs played Bayern recently in a friendly, he tweeted and he said he led with good to get some minutes in the legs and nice to see some familiar faces or something. And I was like, lead with the other things. Say how great it was to see spurs fans and faces just play the game a bit. But he obviously didn't think that and just said what he was feeling. But I don't know. I think that can feed into this perception of Kane as quite sort of cold and detached. And maybe in some respects, that makes him feel like an easier target because there is this kind of invulnerability to him. You know, this is a guy who missed the penalty in the World cup against France, a that's basically completely forgotten about. You know, he's hard. He was hardly like a Gareth Southgate figure. He was playing and scoring for spurs in the Premier League 16 days later. He's just. He's so incredibly able to kind of compartmentalize and just crack on, which, yeah, I think. I think can sort of. Yeah. Make him feel sort of less human, which I don't think is right, but I can understand why. Then people are kind of like, oh, well, he won't mind being criticized. He's fine. You know, he'll just get on with it.

A (10:07)

I think there are moments when you see the humanity of it, and it's a little bit of a shame that kind of the normalness gets lost within all the kind of the translucent glare of modern superstars.

C (10:18)

But if you.

A (10:19)

I remember, and I've probably told this story on the podcast before, but I remember going to Bayern against Brissy Dortmund at the Falinstein a couple of years ago when he scored a hat trick. I was waiting the Mix Zone. And he didn't talk, but he came walking through and he had the match ball in a plastic bag. Like, not Tesco's bag, but it's like Reaver or Edico or something like that. And he just walked past, and I remember saying to him, is that the matchboard? And he's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was very interesting because it's like there aren't heirs and graces to him. There isn't. Like, sometimes in our job, you can brush up against superstar ego. It's just a function of the game and how Famous a lot of the players have become. But he doesn't really have that. There isn't that sort of veneer. Like, you can kind of. You can see the person there. There's no controversy to him. There's no. I think this is a virtue. Like, I think what you see is pretty much what you get. He is a really guarded person, and I don't think any of us know who he is beyond kind of what we're presented with. But that still seems authentic, and that's saying something in this day and age, I think, in this era of the game.

B (11:24)

Okay, and do you think winning a trophy has also helped shift perceptions? Because he's clearly efficient, clearly a goal scorer. Finally, the Bundesliga trophy. He's gone to a massive team, Seb. I mean, that. That must be brilliant for Brand. Kane.

A (11:37)

Yeah, I don't know. I think. I think the people who want to denigrate him will still do it. The people who want to question him will still do it. It tends to be a conversation also, which is very Premier League centric and where people don't really respect whatever you achieve in Germany, because just assume that it's like a kind of, you know, it's a welcome gift. Right. Join Bayern Munich. Here's a Bundesliga trophy. Not really like that. I think that he's been part of what will become a really interesting Bayern revival, what will be seen that way in the next couple of years. He'll be a fundamental piece within that, and he is inseparable from what Bayern had been able to do over the last couple of years. But that's not the way the game works. You don't. I. E. We know this. You don't get people on social media going, you know what? I was wrong about that, actually.

C (12:22)

It doesn't happen.

A (12:23)

It's not a. And it's also, like, you talk about brand. I think there's a kind of a social media brand in denigrating Cain. There's attention to be gained. There's kind of. There's retweets and likes to be farmed from that. And I don't think that will ever change. And also because some of the things we've touched on. He's not a fashionable guy. He's not. Is he a cool guy? I don't think a couple of guys in their 40s should be sitting around arguing about what's cool or not. But my point is, does he have that kind of flash quality to him, which makes him attractive to kind of. To younger people to make him aspirational I'd say probably not. And so he's kind of an easy target. Right?

C (13:00)

It also doesn't help that, you know, spurs don't have many kind of media cheerleaders in the way that if he played for some of the other biggest clubs, he might have that. And also, as Seb says, it became such a stick to beat him with that whole, you know, you're always near missing, you don't win stuff that kind of just lingers on because you can always be like, oh well, you know, winning the league with Bayern, that doesn't. Does that even count kind of thing, you know, all this sort of nonsense stuff. But yeah, I do. I do think the kind of spurs association did add to it because spurs are quite an easy target themselves. And so combining that with, you know, Kane became the kind of poster boy for near misses, I guess. But it's such a credit to him that he's, you know, he's never really been that bothered by it and that he has gone and he has won stuff. And I just don't think this stuff really bothers him. I really don't like he's just so incredibly hyper focused and you see that in his performances.

B (13:57)

Okay, well, next we'll ask what makes Kane so prolific.

A (14:03)

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B (17:48)

Well, joining us now is former England goalkeeper Rob Green. Rob, appreciate you joining us. You were in the England squad for Harry Kane's first call up in March 2015. What was he like at camp? And also, could you guess back then that he'd become the prolific goal scorer we see today?

D (18:07)

Yeah, it's amazing to think it's a decade ago. I mean, the numbers he's racked up since then, isn't it? Is extraordinary. But in short, by then. Yeah, before that, I actually played against him around three years before that in a reserve team game, West Ham. I was coming back from fitness and he was not near the first team. And there was another. There's a whole bunch of youngsters playing and they were sort of the next up and coming stars for Spurs. And he looked like he was struggling then. He couldn't get shots away. He was struggling to get his feet right. And he's just thinking, well, this guy, out of all of them, probably. I didn't see it then. And then something clicked and it was just his finishing clicked and from there, all of a sudden, everything just flew. When he came into the England camp, he was quite quiet and quite shy, which is understandable. I remember my first England camp and Gareth Southgate took me under his wing when Eiffelhurst went in. So I kind of remembered that. I remember how. What a help it was for me. He said, just come and sit next to us on the bus. So I said that. I did the same bums 35 by then. So I was like. Like one of the senior ones. Come sit here.

A (19:15)

We had.

D (19:15)

We played stick cricket. The app on. On our phones, we played that. Yeah, just trying to, you know, be a friendly face around the camp from that point on. No, really, he's. He's sort of. It's just spins one sort of seamless progression for him, hasn't it?

B (19:33)

What do you think that is? You know, you talked about seeing him back then and you weren't quite sure whether or not that that lad you saw would end up being a prolific goal scorer. But what is that with player development in general? Is that an individual thing? Is that just a phase in their life where perhaps they haven't quite developed at that point, or is it just pure hard work that gets them to the level where he's now just undoubtedly an incredible goal scorer?

D (19:54)

I think something in their Clicks Think. When you're looking at young lads, you talk about the brain and how your body develops. He's saying, they're not there till you're 24. As, as men. And. And so something clicked at a point. You look at all the loan spells he had and, and all the time he sent out on loan, you never really saw a point where you're thinking, oh, wow, he's a step above this.

A (20:17)

He's.

D (20:17)

He's got to go on. I think between, you know, playing, because it was only three years between playing in this reserve team game and then being with the English body is something definitely clicked. And, and you put that down to his hard work, repetition in, in just delivering the end result over and over again. You can see it and you can see it when he plays that. He just gets. Saw it last night. When he gets to a certain point, you're going, well, this is a goal. He gets that shot away. He gets in a position where he's going to shoot and think, well, this is it, this is a goal. And it was.

B (20:51)

Well, let's talk about England, because some of the criticisms leveled at Harry Ken is that he slows England down and he drops too deep in midfield. But from a player's perspective, is that fair or does it miss the point about just how good a player he is? Maybe we're thinking about him as a classic number nine. Maybe he offers England a bit more than that.

D (21:12)

I think you could counteract that and say, well, what's he supposed to do? And say, okay, Erling Haaland gets criticized for Manchester City for standing there and doing nothing. So you, you, you, you want him to stand up there. You look at this, this group, and which team just hasn't sat back and waited to be beaten by England? They've all done exactly the same and last night was no exception. So you sit there and go, well, where do you want him? And you look at what he does for Bayern also and say, well, when he does drop in, you've got Serge Gnabry and other players looking to run in behind when he creates that space. So he's a wonderful deliverer of a pass and he's got vision, so use it. What he hasn't got is blistering pacing behind. He knows that. So why are we all asking him to make runs down the channels when, you know, you may as well ask me. So you sit there and say, well, actually, what's his attributes? What's his skill sets? Use it. If it brings a different dimension. Yeah, brilliant. Because if he was making those runs in behind, he'd be slowing England down. Let Anthony Gordon do it. Let the other players, Rashford do it. Whoever it might be on the win, let them make those runs because they're quicker.

B (22:30)

Yeah. I mean Seb for Bayern, 103 goals and 106 appearances. I mean that is insanely prolific. But are there any criticisms based on how, how deep he sits as well?

A (22:42)

No, I think in the beginning there were, in his first season there was criticism around whether he scored in big games or not. In German football you do get some soft fixtures. You do get to play against Bochum or Darmstadt and Philly beats do some stat padding. That's definitely true. But then the payoff of that is that, you know, when it comes to playing Bayerkusen or Bristol Dortmund and you don't score, then the, the Chris can be particularly fierce. So in that first year, yes, I think where we are now, there's definitely been an evolution in this game and Bayern fans have seen that the deeper Kane plays in many ways because he's able, as you mentioned, because he's able to, to kind of balance it with prolific return from a goal. He's able to allow the teams to do interesting things, particularly with at the moment Jamal Masiala injured until probably January, the team is without a central based playmaker. And you're seeing Kane doing all kinds of things. You're seeing him pick up possession directly from his goalkeeper between the center halves. I mean they're England fans whose heads would explode if they saw that happen on international duty. But it works. And you see also the effect on other players. You see his combinations with Michael Lise, who's developed into an outright star in German football. Serge Gnabry's career has been rejuvenated. He's been playing better than he has been in years, really. Kings of Command was doing the same before he left. Luis Diaz has hit the ground running. He's been a tremendous addition and a lot of it can be traced back to what Kane's able to do. We mentioned right at the beginning of this podcast about, we went back to €96. Now that's kind of back in the fabled time of Shearer and Sheringham, right? Kane's kind of both. Kane's both of those players really in the same body and, and I think as he's got older and Rob made a really great point. What's the point in him being that kind of line breaking player if he hasn't got the pace to do it and the players better suited to those roles. Yeah, that penny started to drop in Germany about 18 months ago, to the point where, like, while there's a recognition that he'll never quite represent what Robert Lewandowski did at Bayern, because of the tonnage of what Lewandowski was able to win, I think there's an acceptance that Kane is a much broader player and a much better player.

D (24:52)

If he did it in a Bellingham shirt, would be percussion in it. You know, if he even. Like you just described, then he drops in to get the ball off the. Off the center, off the goalkeeper or something like that. If he had Bellingham 5 on his back, would we all be going, oh, wow, this is amazing. You know, but because Harry Kane and he's been around a long time, then. Then we're all sort of a bit more proportioned to have a pot, I think.

A (25:15)

I think we all just like a moan. Rob, because I remember when Bellingham was in Germany, he was criticized too, because when, when Bellingham was young at Dortmund, he tried to be everything all at once. Like, he was a 6, he was an 8, he was a 10. Like, he was doing everything because he was so gifted and he got criticized for that. Like, people were saying, oh, you've got to be more stable, you've got to stay here and you've got to be the 10 or you've got to be the 8 and you've got to have discipline. I just think we like to pick apart great players. I don't. And I think that's a kind of. That's a. That's a. That's a habit that transcends a generation. I think we'll always do it like, let's have a. Let's have a. Let's complain about something that's great. And that's Kane. Right? And that was also Bellingham.

B (25:50)

Yeah. I mean, how effective do you think that is, Charlie? I mean, because from what we're talking about, we talk about the likes of Elise and it all at Bayern. Super fast wingers. He can bring them into the game. I'm thinking Sack, I'm thinking Rashford, I'm thinking Gordon, I'm thinking Madwicki for England. Similarly, he sits in that kind of position where you've got these incredible quick wingers that he can bring into the play and then he makes his way up the field. I mean, 95 goal involvement in 110 international matches. That is prolific.

C (26:20)

Yeah. I mean, and what's. Yeah, that is it. I mean, it's the fact that he's been able to have this evolution without his productivity going down. If anything, it's got better. And I remember, you know, having this exact conversation really about 5 years ago at spurs when he started to perform a different role, where he moved away from being that number nine would drop in. And then you saw son win the golden boot in 21, 22, in large part because Kane was dropping deep and feeding him. But that's what's been so exceptional. Because I remember when Kane started to do that, we were all kind of conditioning ourselves to accept the fact that, okay, this is what happens. You know, you see this with often with kind of, you know, players who, you know, we saw a bit with Rooney in a different way because he started a bit deeper, but he moved deeper and deeper and deeper and kind of stopped scoring goals. And I think we thought, well, Kane's going to drop deeper. Will have to get used to him as a playmaker, which has happened, but while at the same time still scoring at the ludicrous rate he always has. I mean, it is just like when you actually break it down. It's just extraordinary. And yeah, there's no reason why, you know, like in the same way the, the why players at Bayern who benefit from that or like Sonder that Spurs, that we can't see that with these England players at the World cup who should be perfectly suited, as Rob said, because you've got guys like Gordon Rashford who can essentially do his running for him.

D (27:33)

I likened it to. I was just thinking, then I went, I was lucky enough to go and watch Brazil, Croatia at the last World cup in Qatar. And I took my son and I was explaining to him, I said, watch how Croatia play and it's all about where Modric is on the pitch and how can he get them up the pitch. And the whole team waited for Modric. They had the ball, but they were just waiting for Modric to get up the pitch. There weren't any Croatians complaining about Modric being a bit slow and getting up the pitch. Let's, let's, let's take it all in the element that it's leveled at and if he is needed to be accommodating for then at times and yeah, use it.

B (28:13)

I wonder how much of a great option this is for Thomas Tuchel in terms of the consistency offers Rob. But also when you have players like Palmer Bellingham at the moment, or even no Foden in the team, he offers that sort of creative outlet and a goal scoring prowess. It's almost like the, the complete forward play in many respects.

A (28:31)

Yeah.

D (28:32)

And you look into, say what a great option it is. If you're saying to bring them on as well, you say, okay, Kane's dropped in. He's done that. Or he doesn't. And you saw last night, there was. There was times where players were whirring and around him, and he was saying, well, I will stay as number nine. I will stay up there because I trust these guys with the ball. And you kind of see a bit with Chelsea and Cole Palmer. Joel Pedro's done the same where he's dropped in and when Cole Palmer's been injured and then Cole Palmer came back and automatically Joe Pedro went, well, I'll stay a center forward. There's no point me going into those holes. Harry's got the intelligence and also backed up with the ability to turn around and say, well, I can. I can do it with the personnel that's around me or not around me. And so that's. That's a brilliant attribute to have. And for Thomas Tuchel, over a long tournament with a lot of heat, with a lot of contributing factors next summer, finding the right tools for each game is going to be key. Changing the game within the elements of the whole context of a game, which is where we suffered in the past in major tournaments, we haven't been able to change the game. That is something that's going to be a huge tool in his armory.

B (29:45)

I want to flip it around a little bit and, and talk about what it's like to come up against him. I know in his breakout season, 2014-15 came when you were at QPR. Now he scored twice against you in a 21 defeat at Loftus Road. From your perspective as a goalkeeper, how difficult is he to. To play against?

D (30:05)

Well, I, I did actually watch that re. Watch that game, and I saw it on the notes, and I saw he. He missed an open goal as well.

B (30:12)

We won't talk about that bit. We just want to hear about him scoring against you.

D (30:16)

Yeah, I mentioned to him during the game that he should have had a hat trick. But it's. But it's like I touched on. Before you say there's moments you. You worrying about as a goalkeeper, your own technique, your own ability, your own right. I've got to get into this position at this time, get my feet right, get my dive right. Add to the fact that he gets in a certain area, a certain position, you know, you've not really got a chance. I like. And it's a kind of almost a small Picture of playing against him is when he gets a penalty, he's that good at penalties. Looked at his ability to what where he goes, his patterns, his foot movement, stuff like that, for a lot of players you say, okay, well, if he moves his feet this direction or if he takes this sort of a run up, you'll go to your left or to your right. And in the end we looked at Harry Kanes and we went, if he goes to my right, I've actually got no chance in saving him. I may as well just die to my left.

C (31:11)

That's so interesting you say that, Rob. I've always had that theory for goalkeepers that there's basically no point diving to their right because if he goes that way, you can't save it anyway. So you may as well try your left.

D (31:19)

He's gone, it's gone. And you know, you can go and he can bury it that hard past you. Add to the fact that he's now brought in the stutter as well. You go early and it's. You kind of. You're dead anyway. So he is the best I've seen in certain areas on an angle within the V of the pitch, really coming out from the goal. If he's in that area, he's the best I've seen just finding the corner consistently.

A (31:48)

I was actually going to ask about the penalties, Rob, when he brought in the stutter, what is it actually like to face a player when he stutters just before the ball? What are you looking at when that's happening?

D (31:59)

That is possibly the hardest, the worst. When you're watching, you're watching them watch you, but then you're watching for them to look at the ball. And if they don't look at the ball, then you got to get your time in so right that it is almost too late. But just, only just almost. And so I trained with Jorginho for a year, who did that. The hop. The only advantage that gave you is you knew when he had to kick the ball. What I would say with the stutter is if you do wait long enough for a player to garnish enough power, they kind of have to whip it to your right if they're right footed. And so with that stutter, if they do stutter and you do manage to wait long enough, then generally they go to the right because they're thinking, I'm gonna have to go with Powell, because I'm not sure, I don't know the answer. But now I've said that everyone's going to change.

A (32:56)

That was the one that Jordan Pickford saved from Jorginho in the Euro 21 shootout. Did he go right? Yes, that was the same one when he tipped onto the post.

D (33:04)

Yes.

A (33:05)

Yeah, so it seems. Yeah. Okay, that's. Sorry, that's just really interesting to me because it's, it's such a. It's such a. It's like a game within a game. Not really comparable anywhere else in football than. Than that situation. So it's interesting.

D (33:16)

No, and it's, it's. It's. As a goalkeeper, you're, you're. What you do have is on your side is things like free kicks, you know, when they're going to strike the ball. So you're actually, you know, if the game's an open play, it might, it's got a. A shorter back lifter, something, you know, something that might catch you out with a penalty. All of a sudden these guys are introducing this that, you know, Harry Kane does it brilliantly because he can batter it as well. I think it was David Ray who did it against first of all. And everyone went, oh, wow, the whole stadium. I was there. The whole stadium just went, just silent. I might actually save this against the Spurs. Experts player. Oh, he was on all different levels.

A (33:57)

Everybody else. Yeah.

B (33:59)

All right, well, Robert, before you go, I've got a little quiz for you actually for all of you. This is a England cap related and please, by all means, all of you, jump in. So the question is. Harry Kane is the third for England caps as captain in men's senior internationals. 85 of his 110 caps have been as a captain. But who are the other four in that top five? So I need four more names of the most capped England captains.

A (34:29)

Bobby Moore, Billy Wright.

D (34:31)

You've got the easy one first.

A (34:32)

Yes.

D (34:33)

I've got to go goalkeepers. I gotta go. Peter Shilton. He's got to be in there, hasn't he?

B (34:37)

No.

C (34:38)

Shearer.

B (34:39)

No. Two more names. One surprised, actually.

A (34:42)

Beckham.

B (34:43)

Yes, that's the one that surprised me. Yes. So we're missing one more here. One more.

C (34:48)

What sort of era?

B (34:49)

Oh, I can't give you that. I can't give you that. It's so obvious.

A (34:53)

Okay, I want to say Brian Robson, but I fear he was injured too often.

C (34:57)

You're right, it is Brian Robson.

A (34:59)

Yes.

B (35:00)

Come on.

A (35:01)

That shows how you get poisoned against a player just by reputation. I was always injured. It was like. No, actually.

B (35:09)

No goalkeepers. Sorry, Rob, I apologize.

A (35:12)

You were trying to get surprisingly a little bit.

D (35:14)

Yeah, yeah. Your mind goes blank and all you can refer to is your own. So clearly, as we say, didn't get enough caps.

B (35:21)

Yeah, exactly that. All right, Robert, we appreciate your time. Thanks so much for joining us.

D (35:24)

Thank you.

B (35:25)

All right, well, next, let's wrap things up and ask if Kane is underappreciated.

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A (37:23)

You'Re listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akamolere.

B (37:29)

Still going Kane.

A (37:32)

Harry Kane reaches a hundred goals for.

B (37:35)

Bayern now before the international break, Harry Kane reached 100 goals for Bayern Munich in 104 games. That's faster than Cristiano Ronaldo at Real Madrid and Erling Haaland at Manchester City who both did it in 105 games. Seb, you can't argue with those numbers. I mean, absolutely astonishing. But Kane is, I guess, considered as a star, but a different type of star to maybe Ronaldo Haaland Mbappe. His marketing's not quite the same, is it? And I guess we've come to see those big players as these big figures wearing sparkly clothes and maybe not wearing Skechers boots, for instance.

A (38:13)

Yeah, they're brands, aren't they? But I think this speaks to something we covered right at the beginning, IO, which is that Kane, fundamentally, in his heart and his bones, is a football player. I don't think the rest of it matters as much to him as being the best centre forward you can be. And I wonder whether. And maybe school's changed since we all left. But he's a try hard right. He's a get the absolute most out of my ability guy, which is not cool, which has never been cool when you're younger. I think you admire the guys who it seems to come easy to, right? The guys just have that supernatural ability. And everyone knows the Kane backstory. Rob was talking about it. I remember as a Tottenham fan, I had no real hope of Harry Kane being a first team player for a very, very long time. Like everyone had heard his name and talks about how many goals he scored as a reserve, but everyone's like, don't say it, don't say it. Especially on those loans. And so everyone knew this, this came back story. Whereas if you compare him to Erling Haaland. Erling Haaland just landed on a football pitch one day, was outstanding as far as we knew, in like, in the mainstream sense, he just appeared like. Because the first time a lot of people saw him was when he was playing for EBI Salzburg Ronaldo, the same. I know he went through some refinement, but was a very, very talented player immediately. Kane wasn't obviously that. And I think there's a perception of a guy who has ground and worked and refined and dedicated himself to becoming the best he can be. And that's a very admirable story. But whether it resonates with the kids, I don't know.

C (39:50)

That's bang on. I mean, those are some of the exact things that really helped Kane. Like, I've spoke to lots of the youth coaches who were there around the time Seb's talking about and he wasn't, you know, he didn't grow up like a Marcus Edwards under this glare of like, he is going to be the guy and ultimately that could be over. That's generally overwhelming for most players. But what that does do same with someone like Rooney, is It means we instantly take for granted their talent. Whereas Kane, I think there was a little bit of. It was almost suspicion. It was like, is this guy that good? Not sure he can be that good because I'd never heard of him and you know, he wasn't built up and he's already 21 or 22 or whatever it is.

A (40:28)

Wasn't the right to see Charlie, do you remember, like, he looked a bit clunky.

C (40:31)

Yeah, he did. And like, I just think, you know, if he was that good, well, why would he be at Leyton Orient on loan? Why would he have flopped at Leicester on loan?

A (40:37)

Why is he not brilliant in my football manager save?

C (40:41)

But like all of those things. And do you remember there was genuinely this idea that he was going to be a one season wonder when he had that breakthrough in 2014, 15. And I think that has always. Obviously now, you know, no one's actually suggesting he's not really good. But I do think that has fed in to this idea like Seb, that it is that so much of it is down to this incredible work ethic, which is like such an admirable quality. But yes, it's not sexy. We want them to be the Gaza, even like a Jack Grealish or someone. There's a lot more affection for him in some respects because he's that archetype of the playground footballer who. It just comes really easy too. And he glides around and he's skillful and he does all of those things. And again, it comes back to what I was saying at the start, like, relatability. Yes, most of us can't relate to otherworldly talent, but we can relate to slacking off and not working really hard. Very few people can relate to Kane.

B (41:34)

Charlie at school, I can see you, mate.

C (41:37)

But like, very few can relate to this, like, insane maximizer. Like, that is a work ethic reserved for a teeny few. The irony is that almost all elite footballers have that to varying degrees, because you can't make it unless you don't. But it's just less obvious, you know, that the dream is to be incredibly talented, work really hard, but to make that hard work not visible, you know, for it to look like it's all natural, when in reality it isn't. But if it looks it, then that's the trick.

B (42:06)

I wonder if, you know, he's one of these players because the only play I can think of, like this different position with someone like Michael Carrick, who people didn't realize just how great he was on the field. Till he retired. And you're like, actually, that player was so essential in the play that actually we need players like that. Do you reckon Harry Kane falls into that category? Because he's not just shout out loud about his talents. Charlie. But we'll be like, actually, yeah, we were lucky when we had Harry Kane, to be fair.

C (42:33)

Yeah. I think it's. There's no way you're not going to miss someone who just has that level of productivity. There is also something about, you know, I think you could probably make the case that Erling Holland is underappreciated in some respects. Like if you act well, if you actually take football down, if you boil football down, if you were speaking someone who barely follows the game and they were saying who's the best player? They'd probably be like, well, I think it's probably the best player in the league is the guy who scores every single game. And yet I wouldn't say that Harland is considered unequivocally the best player in the Premier League, but he kind of is. But we over complicate it because it, you know, like Seb said, we love to have these discussions of, oh, yeah, but does Harlan do enough off the ball? Does he link.

B (43:13)

Play well enough?

C (43:14)

It's like he scores a goal every game, like, you know, but we want more. We always want more. Yeah. And, you know, I don't think Harland is really talked about as like a Ballon d' or winner. Harry Kane's such an interesting one as well, because I. I think we massively underestimate his intelligence as a footballer. And again, part of that comes down to probably the fact that he is quite a reserved guy. You know, he doesn't do lots of like, in depth talking about the game. This is getting a bit like, you know, if his name was, you know, Geraldo Kano or something, he came from a different country. But some of the stuff he does, and I said this on View from the Lane a few years ago and there are many reasons why this comparison you have to be very careful to make. Some of the stuff he does reminds me of Dennis Bergkamp. His spatial awareness is insane. His ability, you know, to play some of those passes, some of his assists. He provided a headed assist for son against Villa. I think it was in a 40 win in April 2022 that reminded me of Bergkamp. Does one at the 98 World cup in that Argentina Holland game, which obviously is overshadowed because Bergam also scores an incredible goal that game. But it's. It's one of the most incredible assists you'll ever see. And Kane does something similar. And to have that level of vision and spatial awareness, like, he is a genius on the pitch, but it's often overlooked because, well, he'll score a goal in the game or. And again, maybe it's just perceptions we have of a player. We. We like to bracket players. You know, Kevin de Bruyne, genius, incredibly intelligent. That. That's his thing. We wouldn't think that necessarily about Kane, but I think that element of Kane's game is, like, is really underappreciated.

B (44:46)

Yeah. I want to throw a stat here, which absolutely astonishing for me. Harry Kane is a professional footballer for both spurs and Bayern. So in 11 full seasons since 2014, 15 seasons, Kane has never scored fewer than 24 goals in all competitions. I mean, that's insane. But now you've got a guy that's 32 gone, turns 33 after the world Cup. How much longer can this go on for, gents? How much longer can he stay at the top of his game? Is he a Cristiano Ronaldo that needs to be in a league like the Bundesliga, for instance, which allows him to play a bit longer, I guess.

A (45:24)

Well, I think one of the things in his favor is that Kane, in a very subtle way, we've talked about his playmaking, we talked about his goal scoring. I think Kane has almost slightly reinvented himself as more of a team component. He's kept the goal scoring absolutely. But he's managed to add facets to his game. And I was thinking the other day of, I can't think of another forward. He's been able to do that successfully. Like, we've seen forwards being given, like, partners in the old 442, like. Right. We can't compensate for his lack of pace. We put him next to a young, like, 21 year old. You've seen players drop deep sometimes into midfield or, you know, into roles where, you know, you can hide their athletic abilities. I've never seen a player who's been able just to add stuff without taking anything away. There's no sense in Germany that he's slowing down. And actually, he is now probably responsible for the strongest Bayern Munich side in the offensive sense since he got here and only seems to be getting better. I think what we know about the game is that when the end comes, it comes quite quickly in a sort of Shevchenko y Fernando Torres sort of way. But I don't know. We spent the entire podcast talking about how well this guy looks after himself, how dedicated he is, how well he lives. He's incredibly durable for the amount of contact he takes and for the size of his body and the way he plays, he's incredibly durable. Yeah, I have no idea. He'll play as long as he wants to, I'm sure.

C (46:47)

Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with that. The interesting thing will be what happens when he's for England or for Bayern or wherever he's playing, when he's good enough to be a kind of squad player, but not the guy. That's always a really tricky transition for a player of his sort of standing. And what tends to happen is it happens too late that he becomes a school, because a manager is gonna be A, a little bit wary of this enormous character, and B, would also be thinking, yeah, but it's this, you know, it's Harry Kane or it's Cristiano Ronaldo or it will happen at Liverpool. It's mo salah. Like, I can't bench them or, you know, they may just produce a moment of magic at any time, so I'm gonna have to start them. So I think that will be interesting, but I, I don't know when that will come because honestly, I think people would have thought it would have happened by now.

B (47:37)

I wonder where he sits in the sort of pantheon of great England football players of all time. You know, scored more goals for England than anyone else captain England at major tournaments, being to at least the semifinals in three of the four tournaments he's captain England at. I mean, where does Harry Kane rank in the greatest England football players of all time? Charlie?

C (47:59)

We won't really know until he stops playing and then we have a bit of distance. I struggle to say about players, maybe before I was watching, but in my sort of football watching lifetime of the last 30 years, I struggle really to think of many who've achieved much more with England. I mean, we've had, obviously England have had lots of really good players, but like you say there, IO. Like, that's a. He's, you know, he's been part of a really consistent England team, you know, way more than we could ever have imagined back when, you know, any semi final and was, was great and like a final would have been sort of beyond our wildest dreams. Like, yes, England haven't got over the line. But I'd say he's, you know, right up there for, yeah, for, for players that I've ever seen play for England.

A (48:47)

Yeah. In my lifetime, I'd agree. Like, I, I, I, I don't want to be disrespectful to those who came before because I, I, it's very hard to kind of grasp the significance of Bobby Charlton, Bobby Moore. I've heard and read about what those players meant to people and what they achieved, and it's inaccessible to me, but certainly within my lifetime as a pure footballer, there's no one above him.

B (49:10)

Okay, fair. Cheers gents. Charlie, Seb, appreciate your time and also Rob for joining us a little earlier. Remember, if you've enjoyed today's show, drop a like on the video and also leave us a comment. We'll be back soon. We'll catch you then.

A (49:25)

Listening to the Athletic FC Podcast the producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabre and Jay Beal. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and Aidi Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.

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