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- [00:01]
Podcast Host (Ad Read)
This episode of the Athletic FC is brought to you by Threads. The best part of football isn't just the matches. It's the conversation. The hot takes, the debates, the back and forth that goes on before kickoff, during the match and after the final whistle's been blown. And this summer, that's all happening on Threads. We'll be discussing all the biggest news and stories directly on threads every single day this tournament. On each episode of the Athletic fc, we'll be getting stuck into the biggest talking points and discussing all of your comments and opinions. For your chance to be featured in the next episode, head over to Threads and follow our account heathleticfc and join the conversation. Football on Threads get into it
- [00:44]
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- [01:22]
Adam Leventhal
hi there and welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Adam Leventhal. So FIFA have scrapped their plans to sell off the World cup after a huge backlash. So how did it all fall apart and is this the end for the FIFA president, Gianni Infantino. Well, alongside me from the Athletic, Matt Slater, Adam Crafton and James Horncastle. And later the UEFA Vice President, Laura McAllister will be joining us and she has strong views.
- [01:51]
Laura McAllister
I see no way in which the position is retrievable now. I think there has been, there have been too many interventions of the kind we saw last week. If this were the first, then there might be an argument for some form of redemption. But the reality is this is the latest in a series of interventions that seem to have come from the President himself.
- [02:14]
Adam Leventhal
So this story has moved day by day since it emerged last Tuesday that Gianni Infantino wanted to launch a new subsidiary called FIFA Forward Enterprise, or FFE, which would see a 20% stake in its World cup commercial operation sold for $20 billion. And in line to take a large proportion of that was a firm called Thrive Capital, run by Joshua Kushner, who is the brother of US President Donald Trump's son in law, Jared Kushner. We're going to get stuck into many Other elements of this and specifics along the way. But first, Matt, just give us a taste of the carnage that has ensued since we first learned about this.
- [02:57]
Matt Slater
Hmm, quite a lot of carnage. Well, I'll be as brief as possible because I can't name check everybody that's said. This is a dreadful idea. But I suppose let's start with Europe. They're the most predictable. UEFA put out a pretty strong statement straight away. They then convene a meeting of all 55 European member associations. I think we're going to hear from someone who was at that meeting a little later in the show. So I don't want to steal her thunder, but pretty much Most people spoke. 30, 30 odd people spoke. Alexander Seffrin, who if John F. And Tegel told you it was daytime, he'd say it's nighttime. So he kind of like led the charge. Others immediately got in behind him. We hate this idea. We absolutely hate it not doing it. And we hate it so much we might boycott. We will boycott the World cup, we'll boycott FIFA tournaments. So it couldn't have been clearer. Same time another meeting's going on over in North America. This CONCACAF represents North and Central American football. Their meeting was perhaps less predictable given that a lot of their member associations, particularly the ones in the Caribbean, are almost exactly the type of organization that John Infantino was targeting with this, you know, a genuine life changing amount of money for your federation. And also the fact that we've just been to the States, but largely the states for the World cup, big success, certainly big financial success. And most of this money, most of this private money was going to be coming from the States. So you would have thought they would be more open to the idea, certainly. But no, they hated it as well. They certainly hated the process. They'd already sort of indicated that they didn't like, you know, reading about it for the first time. But to me anyway, surprisingly in step with the Europeans. And then I think the third big element, which in some ways, is it a bigger shock than those, maybe it is the Asian Football Confederation not quite as strong as the other two. So we don't like it either. What are we doing here? The speed of this, the haste of this, talking about governance and what have you. So you had three of the big confederations in order of anger, like Europe, concacaf, afc saying no, no, no, no, no, only Europe, if I'm right, talking about boycotts. The other two kind of, you know, sort of standing in unity with them, saying just please drop this. And then of course we had lots of individuals, you know, pulling out and saying, we didn't know about this. An interesting one to me was Carlos Cordero, ex U.S. soccer boss, a long time supporter, you know, cheerleader, confidant, conciliari to Gianni Afontino. Just saying, this is a really sorry. Also ex Goldman Sachs, saying, this is just a really bad deal. What are we doing here? The chief operating officer, Kevin Lamour, you know, you would think someone who absolutely should be all over this at FIFA saying, johnny lied to us, you know, we didn't know about this. He's been doing this with a, you know, totally private group of individuals who don't work for FIFA. So I think those are the main bits. There's been lots of other individuals that said stuff as well. So a loss of carnage. And here we are now talking on Monday. Over the weekend, it's been like, well, is Johnny gonna survive? Because people have been calling for his head as well. Of course, that's the thing. I should have mentioned too that he has lost the confidence certainly of Europe, CONCACAF as well, I think. And, you know, does he survive this?
- [06:27]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah. And that is the big question now. And we'll get stuck into that. And Adam, it's amazing to me and reading the big read that a lot of people contributed to on the Athletic, the big inside read of the week that was that ideally Gianni Infantino wanted to announce this during the World cup. Considering the carnage that has happened. Imagine if it had happened during the tournament. It's staggering, isn't it?
- [06:56]
Adam Crafton
Yeah. I think it would have interrupted the athletics end of tournament football match that was taking place that Saturday morning. Yeah, he wanted to announce it at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel on the Saturday before the World cup final. The day before, he'd been at Trump Tower the evening before with many of the member federation executives, with extended members of the Trump family. And there were some whispers that week of something going on and nobody was quite sure what it was. And actually through putting together part of that piece, what actually may have contributed in the end to it getting leaked is Gianni himself started saying a little bit too much about this thing that he hadn't announced. And he started sort of suggesting to some of his wealthy friends and connections over that weekend what might be afoot. And there's people who think that by extending the network of people who knew that was one of the ways that it got out. I think in the end, the plan was actually to announce it last week, I think on Thursday or Friday. In the end, it obviously leaks out into the media on Tuesday, and that just once he lost control of the messaging and lost control over how it was presented to his federations. I think that made it almost dead on arrival, to be honest. I think it was going to be uphill in any case. I think whenever it was announced, it may have been killed, but certainly the way it came out. Because if you look at a lot of the criticism from the federations, it's, as Matt says, they talk about opacity and a lack of governance, a lack of process. A lot of those criticisms wouldn't have really have been able to have been presented in quite the same way if he himself had presented it, rather than it getting out in the media. But there still would have been this argument of, you've drawn this all up in secret and, you know, we can get onto, you know, the biggest elephant in the room, which was not only that, but you've done it with someone with the surname Kushner.
- [09:05]
James Horncastle
Right.
- [09:05]
Adam Crafton
You've not really hidden what's going on here. And the optics of that were always going to present a huge challenge.
- [09:12]
Adam Leventhal
James, how has he got this so wrong? It's such a miscalculation, isn't it? Or should we not be surprised that someone who has become so elevated, rubbed shoulders with such important people, has maybe lost touch of reality?
- [09:30]
James Horncastle
I think he considers himself to be a member of the global elite now. And, yeah, I think that's perhaps normal, given over the last 10 years as president of FIFA, which, you know, he likes to celebrate. He had his own kind of private birthday party for 10 years at FIFA with Chris Martin and others.
- [09:51]
Adam Crafton
Three of them. Sorry, three birthday parties.
- [09:54]
James Horncastle
Three birthday parties.
- [09:55]
Matt Slater
He has his own logo.
- [09:56]
James Horncastle
Yeah, the anniversary parties. Yes. I can't wait to buy the merch for that. Matt. I will be wearing a GI hat.
- [10:04]
Adam Crafton
Sorry, James, to cut across you on that, the best thing about this is, for his 10th birthday party at FIFA, he also got this book written by an Italian journalist, basically celebrating him. But at the congress in Vancouver, you know, like many hotel rooms in America, particularly kind of Middle America, have the Bible by the bed. He had this book given to federation executives in their bedrooms as a gift. So the FIFA Bible was. They were sleeping next to it.
- [10:35]
James Horncastle
Yeah. I mean, we can. We can get into all of that a little bit later maybe as well. But, I mean, yeah, this is a guy who's been given the Order of Friendship by Vladimir Putin. Yes. Sort of, you know, sort of walked into the Kremlin and, you know, sort of, if you look at some of his other engagements, the Qatar World cup, you know, sort of moved to Qatar. He was there with Emir. He was there with Mohammed bin Salman. You know, obviously over the last four years, not only with the World cup in North America, but also the Club World cup, he's positioned himself very close to Donald Trump, incredibly close. You know, not only sort of allowing him to have trophies in the Oval Office, but also, you know, giving him the inaugural Peace Prize. And then to just come back to this summer, you know, traveling around on a private jet supplied by Qatar Airways, going from VVIP box to VVIP box with various members of America's billionaire class. Be that kind of Robert Kraft of the New England Patriots, Jerry Jones of the Dallas Cowboys, all of whom must look at him and think, how much do you make, Jenny? Sorry. Our commissioner makes 10 times what you do. This is crazy. This is the greatest show on earth you're putting on. And I think this has just led to him sort of largely being in a bubble and tone death when it. When it comes to this. And certainly, as Adam alluded to there with sort of already presenting this proposal with a private investor group led by Thrive Eternal, headed by Josh Kushner. You know, if you look at the proposal in itself to sell a. A minority stake, quite a large minority stake in a new company, a lot of people in finance will say, well, that's quite normal in sports these days. But I think it's the appearance of Infantino, his proximity to the Trump family, which is problematic here, because as much as he will say, well, that minority stake means that FIFA retain control and voting rights on whatever that company would do. Well, we've already seen the sovereignty of FIFA stepped on in the tournament when it came to the story that Adam and Dan Sheldon broke regarding the unsuspension of the suspended US Men's national team player following Baligan. So the idea that he couldn't control what he was not giving away, and the general sort of perception now of Janni as being this sort of deeply integrated figure in private affairs when he is a sort of, you know, sort of someone who's heading up a public institution, it felt like the last few days has been as much a referendum on Janney as on the proposal that he was bringing forward.
- [13:29]
Adam Leventhal
Matt, let me just bring you in on this, and maybe you can play devil's advocate, if you wish, in terms of what FIFA were trying to do, which was ultimately raise more money for its member nations. Obviously, attached to that is what that then means for the person who's doing That I. E. Gianni Infantino and keeping himself in power. But ultimately, are they doing anything different to what they've ultimately been doing previously, which is, you know, allowing the direction of football to be forced by the hands of the powerful and the most rich.
- [14:07]
Matt Slater
All right, devil's advocate then. To be fair to FIFA, they are a non profit based in Switzerland. They don't pay tax because they're a non profit. Nothing wrong with that. Lots of other international sports federations are based there too and are set up in exactly the same way. These organizations are 100 years old. Okay. And they would say that we have this one really cool thing. We've got a few more now that we'd like to add to that. But really it's been one cool thing. It's been the Men's World Cup. Obviously FIFA would like the Women's World cup to be a bigger, more financially successful competition too. Likewise the club World Cup. Likewise everything else they do. But really it's the Men's World cup at the moment. And that is why, like the Olympics, they do all their budgets on a four year cycle which culminates with the Men's World cup, right? So very like, rule of thumb, they lose money for three years, lose their own nonprofit. They dish it out, dish it out in grants, costs, wages, and they make a great big profit at the end on the ticketing, the commercial deals, the broadcast deals. And they have been making money. Bear in mind, nonprofit. So I'll explain. They've been making surpluses for years. The World Cup's pretty good, isn't it? We like it. And then of course, because they're making bigger surpluses, because the World cup is growing, literally growing. And those other things I mentioned, and the fact that more and more parts of the world are interested in football. The wind is in FIFA sales, has been in FIFA sales for a while. The money's been going up. The one we've just done, absolute mega success. 104 games in the world's most lucrative live entertainment market. Dynamic pricing, you name it. The rest of it, ka ching. All of that extra money is then dished out. Now this is the sort of devil's advocate bit, you know, they would say, look, our job as the global governing body is to sort of grow the game everywhere, all corners of the globe. And yes, yes, yes, Europe, we know you're really, really good and you've got the big leagues and all the players come from there and yeah, you're fine. And South America, yeah, yeah, you had Brazil, Argentina, you win these Things like Uruguay in the past, yeah, you're okay as well. But our job, our fiduciary responsibility, though they shouldn't use that term. But Gianni Infertino likes it as though he is a chief executive of a plc. But anyway, his job, he would say. I think he does genuinely believe bits of this. Well, he's managed to convince himself he believes it. Anyway. His job is to, well, have an African winner. I want African winners. I want Asian winners. Europe shouldn't dominate this. And that is a really compelling argument. I've seen it work in the room. And when Europe pipes up or when Europe says no, the rest of the room, the rest of the world are like, oh, here we go. Oh, what a surprise. Europe don't like this new idea because they're fine. And then you'll start to hear language like colonialism, the imperialists at it again. And dare I say, when we, the English, do it, the whispers are even louder. So this is what Gianni has been playing and manipulating for a while. He understands that better than most. I do think there are good people at FIFA who genuinely sort of see this as a mission. Look, football's the biggest sport in the world, and yet it's not the biggest sport in the States, China, India, other swathes of the world. Look where the talent's coming from. Africa, you know, why is African football so far behind the rest? So they would say, europe's not dishing it out, we have to dish it out. So that's the sort of the defense of the FIFA position.
- [17:54]
Adam Leventhal
Adam, do you think it will have come as a surprise to Gianni Infantino that Carlos Cordero, his senior advisor, the chief operating officer, Kevin Lamour, who spoke to the Associated Press, felt that staff had been deceived by Infantino? Also, within the big piece on the athletic, which I've referred to a couple of times, it's reflected that the Secretary General, Matthias Grafstrom, had become frustrated with Gianni Infantino, not consulting with him. However much you can look at that relationship that they've had over a number of years, and it didn't necessarily look to be balanced to me in any way. Do you think it will have come as a surprise to Gianni Infantino that they have started to turn against him quite directly?
- [18:42]
Adam Crafton
I think he'll be surprised by the speed and how public it was, for sure. I mean, he definitely wouldn't have started the week expecting it to end like that. However, you know, if people like us knew before that these people aren't that keen on Gianni I'm pretty sure that Gianni should know that they aren't that keen on Gianni. But Gianni's also, as Matt says, a very kind of a bubble, really. His own little bubble. You know, during the World cup, the amount of times people said to me, sort of, look who he's traveling with. It is not FIFA staff, it's not FIFA management, it is ex players. It's designated FIFA legends. I mean, we even reported in that piece that there's been times where he has sent former players, FIFA legends, as his envoys to meetings with major financial institutions. We're talking about some of the biggest, some of the biggest guys on Wall street taking meetings with former players and kind of blinded by fame a little bit or non fame in some of the cases, the players that were being sent. But that just kind of gives a sense of where he has started to land. And I think someone like, I think someone like Kevin Lamour is a very interesting guy because he was at UEFA previously, moved over to FIFA a year and a half ago, he didn't love it at UEFA. That's something we should remember in all of this that, you know, I think it's very easy and this is a bit of devil's advocate is the binary idea good, everyone else, Gianni bad. There are shades of grey in the goodness and badness of global football. Even within UEFA, there was huge pushback when Scheffrin attempted to, to alter some statutes a couple of years ago as well. So there isn't a kind of a perfect European situation as well and a perfect European governing body. But Gianni has kind of managed to unite the entire block against him. And concacaf, I think, are the really interesting ones to watch as well now because if they can keep their block together. Gianni has a problem.
- [21:05]
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- [24:43]
Adam Leventhal
Well, we're joined now by a key voice in the backlash against FIFA's sell off plans. That's the UEFA vice president, Laura McAllister. Laura, thanks very much for joining us. Just take us into the initial moment that you found out about the plans and then you were surrounded by your peers on an emergency zoom call and you were trying to sort of pull it apart and work out which way you were gonna go.
- [25:10]
Laura McAllister
Well, thanks for having me. First of all, Adam. Well, we heard about the proposal for FFE at the same time as everyone else, of course, which sort of encapsulates the problem that there was no prior conversation or consultation with any of the confederations like ourselves at UEFA, despite the fact that most of us were present during the FIFA World cup, had plenty of opportunities to chat to people at board level and at administration level. And I know from talking to my colleagues in both of those sides of UEFA that there was no communication whatsoever. So we heard the same time as everyone else. But I think what was pleasing about what actually transpired last week was that we were able to move fast to ensure that our opposition to a catastrophic proposal, such as the private equity one, was executed as quickly as possible. And as you said, that resulted in the emergency meeting that was held for all 55 national associations on Thursday afternoon. And obviously we as EXCO members were present and contributed to that.
- [26:13]
Adam Leventhal
In terms of where we are now, I find it interesting that obviously the, the pace of this story has now moved on to UEFA filing a formal six page legal notice warning FIFA against spoliation of evidence. I mean, it is sort of taking it into the realms of being worried where FIFA and maybe Gianni Infantino is going to go next.
- [26:37]
Laura McAllister
I think the legal letter that we've sent is the right next move to protect ourselves, obviously, and to ensure that we are privy to the documentation and the lead up to what happened last week. I mean, it seemed to us to be a unilateral intervention by the President and a small team of people around him. But if we weren't to issue a letter of the type we have, then we'd never get to the bottom of what actually happened. In the weeks that preceded this, because by the time the FFE proposal was in our hands, if you like, it was clear that this had been fermenting for quite some time. So clearly there were other people who were knowledgeable about that. And I think if we're serious about improving the governance of football and ensure that it operates by normal governance, standards of accountability, due diligence, transparency and so on, then it's really important that we don't see documents destroyed that we are party to the whole process that created what could have been an existential crisis for the game.
- [27:43]
Adam Leventhal
So, obviously, you know, you didn't like the idea initially, you didn't like the way that it was formulated by Gianni Infantino, ultimately. Do you want him to stay in position?
- [27:58]
Laura McAllister
Well, look, you know, my federation, the Welsh Football association, was the first national association to issue a letter of withdrawal of our support for Gianni Infantino. And I think that pretty much represents our position. I mean, I see no way in which the position is retrievable now. I think there has been. There have been too many interventions of the kind we saw last week. If this were the first, then there might be an argument for some form of redemption. But the reality is this is the latest in a series of interventions that seem to have come from the President himself. From the FIFA Peace Prize awarded to Donald Trump, to the allowance of state political interference in a red card refereeing decision, to the way in which the hydration breaks have essentially recast the structure of a game. All of those things have happened without due process and democratic engagement by all of us who are involved as custodians of the game. So, you know, we take that very seriously. I know I do, personally. I mean, I'm a former player, you know, and I've been involved in football and sports administration since I retired. So, for me, I know that as a custodian, I'm a temporary figure in these spaces. But our primary duty is to make sure that the voices of the players and the fans are properly heard in every single debate, and that we leave the game in a better health than we took took it at our start of our term. And I'm afraid these kind of interventions don't give us any confidence that that's what's happening. So hence the letter from the Welsh fa. Really proud that we've done that because it's the right thing to do and I hope other federations follow suit. Now.
- [29:39]
Adam Leventhal
Do you think that they will. Obviously, UEFA as a bloc, were united in talking about a boycott. Do you feel that everyone else is going to withdraw support as well, because that's ultimately what's important in what is democratic process.
- [29:53]
Laura McAllister
Well, it's difficult for me to answer for, you know, the other 54 federations, but I know lots of them well, obviously I've got very close relationships with many of them and I know that when we had the discussion at the emergency UEFA meeting on Thursday, there was a real sense of purpose and anger, obviously. Emotion, anger, incredulity as well, the nature of the proposal. So I would be very, very surprised if you didn't see more letters withdrawing support for Infantino come today and tomorrow. But, you know, I can't determine a timeline for that, obviously. But the more that come, the stronger the position is, obviously, because as you know, one member, one vote, you know, in terms of the presidency, the UEFA voices will be particularly powerful because of the status that we have in the game. So I think it's really, really very important that federations now will be thinking about the scenes and we'll be deciding when and if, but when they issue their withdrawals.
- [30:51]
Matt Slater
Laura, you've been around these rooms long enough now to know that there is a tendency sometimes when a European or Europe speaks, the rest of the world rolls their eyes and go, oh, here we go. Are you worried about that? I mean, you said that we have. Europe now has a significance, if you like, beyond its 55 votes. I would accept that. But it is only 55 votes. It's only a quarter of the electorate.
- [31:15]
Laura McAllister
Yeah, it's an entirely fair point, Matt, and I understand exactly what you're saying. I think it's really important that we in Europe don't see ourselves as being bigger or better than any other confederation, first and foremost, or that we don't see our federations as having more clout or weight in this decision making process than those from AFC or Conmebol or, or Caf, or anywhere, because we don't. But we can only look after our own business. And we, I think, believe in the principles of the game being run according to what's best for the sport, not. Not what's best for shareholders and private equity. And so we will speak up. I think what you're alluding to is, you know, would it. Would there be more unity around a non European candidate either to stand against Gianni Infantino or to. Who knows, maybe Infantino will be gone by the time of the election next March. And I understand that, and I think that's something that UEFA will be taking seriously, because we can't assume that another European candidate will be one to unite the world of football. And more important than any regional confederation dominating is that we save the strategic future of football and that we don't allow what happened last week to happen again.
- [32:32]
James Horncastle
Laura, can I ask you, why did it take this for the world of football to rally and intervene? Because this perhaps is the most egregious overstep in Infantino's presidency. But you listed all of the other things that have happened over the last year alone, and particularly the state. Political interference in a live World cup felt like a red line then, but we didn't see the confederations acting as they are now. Why did it take this to get the reaction that we've seen against Jani's presidency?
- [33:25]
Laura McAllister
I don't think it's fair to say you didn't see a reaction to the Baligan red card affair. I mean, I spoke publicly about it as a vice president of UEFA. I know my good colleague and friend Lisa Claverness did as well. So there were voices raised. I mean, Lisa is an executive committee member as well. So I think several federations and individuals felt very, very strongly about that, as they did about the FIFA Peace Prize and even going further back, as they did to events in Qatar around migrant workers and human rights, you know, so it's not as if voice haven't been heard. But I guess what you're asking, James, is why the unity now? Why the force and the vociferous nature of the opposition? And all I can say is, you know, I think this is accumulation of frustration and anger at how the leadership of FIFA has operated. I think no confederation is perfect. Let me say, you know, I'm not claiming for a moment that everything we done, we do at UEFA level is exemplary, but at least we are on a modernization journey. At least we are trying to diversify our governance and make it more fit for purpose. And there's a buy in to that from the president. But we cannot keep trying to put out fires in football. We cannot keep lurching from one crisis to another, because we lose the goodwill and the respect of the real, the people who really matter, which is the fans first and foremost. But then all of the people who are involved in running the game at grassroots level, all the way to elite. So I guess the only answer I can give you is that this was a straw that broke the camel's back, that we felt this was a step too far. It was an existential threat to football and it was something that we had to un night around. And, you know, you Know, guys, because you're experts in this area, there are federations in UEFA who would have done very nicely out of the financial deal that was on offer there. Not just small federations, but even medium sized federations like ourselves in Wales and Scotland and Republic of Ireland. But the unity that was shown against it gives you a sense of where the ethics lie, at least in our case, and I hope that's a good sign. But, you know, we should also reference the role of the AFC and the role of concacaf, you know, because both of those confederations were brave enough to stick their heads above the parapet and say they were opposed to the FFE initiative and they're going to be absolutely critical to what happens next.
- [35:43]
Adam Crafton
That kind of tees up the next question. It was really interesting. I'm losing track of the days, I think on Saturday when the UEFA statement came out and a CONCACAF statement came out pretty quickly in terms of the plan had been pulled at that point. But UEFA and CONCACAF both put out statements. I think CONCACAF called for a reckoning on the presidency. UEFA obviously started talking about losing confidence in the president. There was some pretty similar language kind of across those two letters. And we are getting a lot of suggestions now that there is a move to coalesce around Victor Montagliani as a possible successor. How much coordination is now going on between UEFA and concacaf? Because clearly you need to maintain those two blocs to stand a chance.
- [36:35]
Laura McAllister
I think there's always coordination and communication between the confederations. I know in the areas that I've worked in around sustainability and the women's game, that we're constantly in dialogues with the other confederations. But this is particularly significant, obviously, because as you say, Adam, you know, to defeat Infantino in a vote would require support from other major confederations and the votes of their individual nas. So I think that's always happening and it would be strange if it wasn't happening in this context as well. But the critical point really is, if you roll back to Thursday afternoon, when we were talking about what we should do about this, the unity was straightforward, but what should we do about it? And lots of us felt that the boycott option was the only credible option because it was the only thing we had that's commensurate with the scale of the threat that we were facing. And also it was the only thing that would frighten FIFA. In all honesty, losing the European nations from the Women and Men's World Cups obviously would change the tournaments out of recognition and probably reduce them to something that would not be attractive. To broadcasters and commercial partners. So, you know, we were able to also then mobilize the nation, the nations in Europe, around a boycott. Then, having defeated that proposal, I think it naturally moved on to due process. How do we stop this happening again? How do we look at the culture of FIFA's governance and how do we make sure that one individual within that culture cannot be allowed to dictate a strategic position? Because you saw with the resignation, with the resignation of Infantino special advisor, you saw with the strong statement by my good friend Kevin Lamour that, you know, this was not something that FIFA staff agreed with. You saw that this was very individualistic. And I think what that does is it reflects a very, very poor leadership culture and governance culture within FIFA. So obviously it was right for us then to liaise with CONCACAF about how we try and change that over time, because we have a responsibility to do that.
- [38:38]
Adam Crafton
Yeah, I basically agree with everything you've said, Laura. The bit which I kind of struggle about a little bit, and I appreciate this is speculating to a certain extent, but if one of the existing VPs is to become the person that everyone coalesces around, do we not need to sort of look at, well, what have these guys been doing for the past eight to 10 years while Gianni's been able to do all of this? Because the alternative is we're either saying they're partially responsible for what's gone on. You know, Victor was out there batting for the dynamic pricing model which offended so many fans in the summer, for example, because if they're not partially responsible, they've really just been sat there taking a very healthy salary for a very long time and accepting that they don't really have an impact? So I'm just curious, how do we make sure that what comes next is definitely going to be better than what we've had, other than a kind of slightly less offensive personality culture?
- [39:40]
Laura McAllister
Oh, look, I think that's absolutely critical. We can't replace like with like or we'll get what we've got now, and none of us want that to be the situation. I can't really speak about individuals, obviously. I mean, you know, my involvement is at UEFA level. I know the individuals, of course I do, but, you know, I'm not close enough to know what was going on behind the scenes. And that's, in essence what UEFA's legal action is all about, to find out whether there was a process that was spread beyond the President's office and that other people were implicated in the move for ffe. But I mean, I take what you say, Adam. And I think we have to be very, very clear that whoever replaces Gianni Infantino has to be wedded to the principles that are critical to the development of our sport. So, you know, fair play in everything we do. Transparency, put in the interests of the game first, not financial interest because actually putting the interest of the game first will generate more finance. That's the reality, not the of nonsense that we saw last week. So, you know, that's what we all hope for. I know, but I don't think it's for me to kind of talk about individuals at this stage.
- [40:49]
Adam Leventhal
Laura, really appreciate you coming on. Thank you very much.
- [40:57]
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- [41:18]
Laura McAllister
I'm Winna Liu. I write the game Connections, one of the puzzles from New York Times games
- [41:22]
Adam Leventhal
and I love horror movies, I love
- [41:24]
Laura McAllister
my dog and I love trying to trick you. I'm Tracy Bennett. I get to pick the wordle word every day, which is not as easy as it sounds. The fun fact about me is that I am descended from a witch who was put on trial in Salem.
- [41:38]
Adam Crafton
New York Times games are made by people like the ones you just heard From Go to nytimes.com games to start playing today.
- [41:54]
Adam Leventhal
So obviously we're talking about what's next already. James, do you see Infantino walking before the next election comes around in March? Do you think it's got that bad for him and he would listen that much?
- [42:10]
James Horncastle
Well, we've talked about the Janney bubble and you know, there are surely it's burst by now.
- [42:16]
Adam Leventhal
Surely he must have heard.
- [42:17]
James Horncastle
Oh, but I think the trend in politics and you know, wider public life over the last 15, 20 years is to see individuals find power in shamelessness and not walk or resign when there is a core clamor for them to do so. Ride it out until the club season starts and everyone starts to get distracted by the Premier League and other leagues around the world and in the meantime work on those other confederations that can back and support you and peel member associations away from those that at the moment have been a block against you. So I don't think this is necessarily over as much as a discredited figure he now looks. So I think he will try to hang on to power for as long as he possibly can. So I think chronicles of a resignation foretold are premature, Matt.
- [43:28]
Adam Leventhal
I suppose it's interesting as much as the mud that's being flung everywhere. It's those that are staying silent at the moment as well and that aren't coming out to criticize Infantino. What are you reading between the lines there in terms of actually maybe he might have a way of clinging on here if he can work his magic as he did when he first took over, when he was very, very good at pressing the flesh.
- [43:57]
Matt Slater
Yeah, I agree with James. So some clues already have been dropped. So look at his. The statement that went out. Yeah, I hear you. It was a consultation process. I hear you. Oh, was it? Sorry, I thought everything had been agreed. The letters you sent out to all the federations and confederations was. This is happening. You've got 50 odd days to tell me you want $40 million, yes or no? You know, we've chosen our bank, we've chosen our advisor. Oh, no, no. Apparently this was a consultation. So there's your first clue, second clue. I think apart from that, that's it. You know, you watch his Instagram, that's basically what you need to know what he's up to. He's still pushing out wishing players happy birthday and having a great tournament and blah, blah, blah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he is biding his time. Well, is he biding his time? He's on the phone, him and the few people left who he talks to and they are ringing round their mates. We've heard nothing from convol. South America absolutely wants 64 team World cup in 2030. They've been jealously looking at Europe for a while. Every now and then, for very strategic reasons, they've worked with Europe to get what they want. But he's on the phone to them. He's on the phone to AFC because the afc, their statement was really interesting. Very east, west. In the AFC you've got the golf crowd, you've got Japan, Korea, you've got Australia. It's really hard getting any kind of unity over there. So he knows he can work on them. He knows and he'll be. We've already seen Qatar back him. I think Sri Lanka put one out, there'll be some others. He knows he can get around the edges. I also wonder if he's thinking, is CONCACAF the block? I think it is. You know, I thought it was interesting when the Caribbean crowd do have their own sort of, kind of like, sort of, you know, less, not lesser body, but they have Kind of sort of subcommittee type body. No, no, no, no. We're back in concacaf. We saw Mexico put out a slightly equivocal statement. There's some people he thinks he might be able to peel away. Don't forget, if this guy is as shameless as James suggests he is, and I think think he is that shameless. I also.
- [46:11]
Adam Leventhal
Is it shameless?
- [46:12]
Matt Slater
I think he's just incredibly thick skinned. I think he's been hanging around with the Trumps of this world, you know, on his private jet. He doesn't hear criticism. I think one of the things he'll be telling people is that this again.
- [46:21]
James Horncastle
Oh, he does. He puts out 15 page.
- [46:23]
Matt Slater
Well, yeah, okay, that's, that's.
- [46:24]
James Horncastle
He puts out 15 page slides spreading lies and rumors.
- [46:27]
Matt Slater
You know, I think one thing he'll be doing right now is blaming us, blaming Europe, blame the British media again. He'll say that this story, this plan was sort of killed at birth, as Adam suggested, because of the very negative slant that was put on it initially. If you'd just given me a chance, your guy, to explain this to you properly, it would have landed better. But anyway, it's dead now. He has. And this is one of the things that kind of the more I think people that really hurt him, like Carlos Cordero, those sorts of guys have gone, this is just a really stupid deal. It's a really bad deal. If you want to dish out more money to your member associations. FIFA's sitting on about 7 billion of reserves. Their reserves are going up and up and up. They've actually invested their money quite well. They put loads in bonds. You know, they are sitting on a load of money. What is that for? Now they would say it's for, I don't know, an asteroid hits the world. Another Covid. But come on, you know, if you really.
- [47:26]
Laura McAllister
Yeah.
- [47:27]
Matt Slater
If you want to dish some money out, dish it out. I mean, we know one of the reasons why just dishing money out isn't such a good idea because FIFA have been through this, you know, number, number, number, times. If you say, I don't want to pick on any countries here, but just have a look at, have a look at countries by GDP. It was suggesting giving them 40, 40 million. That is, that's, that's sort of like 50% of some of these nations GDP. I'm not talking about their football federation, I'm talking about their gdp. Is that a good idea? Where do we think that money's gonna go?
- [47:58]
Adam Leventhal
So he's not walking. We've heard Victor Montaliani is potentially wanting to run against him and there's a groundswell of support we're hearing for him. And let's be brutally honest, he's been sort of making sounds or moves many people were thinking, for 2031 anyway. So he's someone that we know about and we've discussed anyone else in the mixer at the moment.
- [48:23]
Matt Slater
Well, I'll give you. I'll give you my five.
- [48:25]
James Horncastle
Right.
- [48:26]
Matt Slater
And then the others can jump in. So, yeah, Moncelliani, he. Many people thought he was the successor 2031. We've already, you know, we've already established that he might be accelerating that idea. Now I will throw in Nasser Al Khalifa, who would, I think, tick the box of being adjacent to UEFA and being on good terms with UEFA, but not European. He, of course, is the. Here's the Qatari who runs psg, runs BM Media. Incredibly powerful in the club world. Kane. He's been quite pally with Gianni over the years, but okay, we haven't heard from him yet. He's telling people he doesn't want it. But watch this space. I think there might be some politics for him to sort out back at home. Relations with Saudi. It's always complicated in the Gulf, but he would bring a lot of support. Another one, I think maybe as more as an interim, but is popular, hasn't said anything, but is hinting that he feels let down by all this as well, is Matthias Grafstrom, who is officially the number two at FIFA. His rise has been very much tied to Gianni Afentino, so that would be interesting. He's kind of young. Most fans have never heard of the guy, but he is quite popular, so he wants to watch. I mean, funnily enough, part of his job title is to think about FIFA strategy, and I'm led to believe he had no idea about this. I would also suggest Patrice Watsepi, who runs African Football confederation. Bit of an outsider, very ambitious, has previously been closely aligned to Gianni, hasn't said a word. And then my last one, Sheikh Salman. Now, the irony there, he's the AFC boss. He's kept very quiet for about a decade. He was the guy that UEFA put Gianni Infantino up to stop Sheikh Salman becoming FIFA president after Sett Blatter. This could land in his lap.
- [50:24]
Adam Leventhal
Adam, final words to you. Crystal ball time. What's happening over the next couple of months? Having had the week that we've had,
- [50:32]
Adam Crafton
I'm just trying to imagine any of those people as FIFA president. And, you know, it is interesting because, you know, when you look around the world at what people want from a FIFA president and what they want to be different next time, you know, really, apart from stripping out Gianni's kind of highly objectionable cult of personality and the way that he addresses a room and the way that he kind of makes you sort of shiver a bit when he talks, you know, a lot of those people would do many of the same things that he's done. You know, I mean, Nasser al Khelifi, like the kind of conflict of interest king of Europe, really, that we've seen over the past few years, in terms of all the different hats that he's worn at various times. So it would be, I think, lamentable of UEFA to be sort of putting that forward, you know, as their alternative. Montagliani, you know, as I said to Laura, has been sat there for 10 years. You know, many of these people, we've not even mentioned what happened in Qatar or in the lead up to Qatar. You know, on this podcast, those people were in place while this stuff happened. And, you know, the idea that they just get to sort of now pretend that they are all of a sudden highly offended by Infantino's FIFA, I don't think is an idea that we should just accept or that he did this.
- [52:02]
Matt Slater
In 2018, he tried with softbank, with Saudi money stuffed into a Japanese fund, to bring in, what was it, biennial World Cups and a massive global Nations League.
- [52:15]
Adam Crafton
Yeah, yeah. And it's much like the Carlos Cordero thing from the other day, where this guy, who has been there in every flipping meeting for the past few years, running around after Gianni like a puppy, all of a sudden gets to be a hero and offended. It doesn't work like that. These guys, you know, in Caldero's case, yeah, powerful statement. Great. His job had basically lapsed. Right. The World Cup's over. Right. This was a job that he wasn't initially even being paid for and then some money went to charity. You know, he wasn't. This wasn't a level of sacrifice. I would say that perhaps it appeared on the surface. However, we should still commend people, you know, who speak out when they do. Crystal, what happens next? I think the key to any kind of dethroning or coup is momentum. And at the moment, UEFA feel like they have momentum. And I think what you're going to see over the next 24 hours, 48 hours, is like a domino of letters, withdrawing. Maybe some of these people will actually explain why they were endorsing in the first place. We've not had much of that. Yeah, as well, you know, as well. But what they need is they need CONCACAF to join. And I think this very interesting story has come out of the New York Post this morning, which is essentially saying Gianni is seeking talks with the US Government to kind of bail him out of this and prop him up a little bit. If the US Government comes on strong. How many of those CONCACAF nations, including the U.S. soccer Federation itself, what do they do? They've not said very much over the past few days. They kind of did a line on. On Twitter basically saying they stand with concacaf. That's going to be a real challenge, I think, for Mantagliani over the next few days. Can he build up his own base within his own continent, or continent, plural? And then you need to get other people to turn. South America at the moment seems pretty tied to Gianni. I think Brazil will be very nervous because they've got a World cup next year. They probably just want all of this to go away a little bit, regardless of whatever they might think privately. And then it's going to be, I think the Asia Asian confederation is fascinating. I'm kind of excited about the Asian confederation because there are kind of so many parts within that, you know, you think of like Lebanon, that's part of the Asian confederation. Right. They came out the other day in support of Gianni. Gianni's just being given a citizenship there. I think his wife is Lebanese. But then there's other parts, you know, what does Qatar do? Well, they've already come out and said they stand with Gianni. But the Saudi bloc have been quiet and the Saudi voice will carry a huge amount of weight. What does Saudi do and who do they bring with them? The Palestinian vote will be interesting. They've not been very fond of Gianni over the last few years. Where do Israel go? There's a lot of different interests and I think it will become very politically guided, to be honest, in some of these cases, depending on who else is in support other than just a bunch, as Matt says, of Europeans who, you know, are telling the world what to think.
- [55:32]
Adam Leventhal
Well, if it is politically driven, it would be very much in step to the. To the last decade of Gianni Infantino. And we watch on with interest to see what's going to happen over the next week, maybe the next 24 hours. Matt James, Adam, Laura, earlier on as well, thank you very much indeed. Thanks very much for listening. We're going to be back with you on Wednesday.