Is it ever OK to boo your own players?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Athletic FC Podcast – "Is it Ever OK to Boo Your Own Players?"

Release Date: May 14, 2025

Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Athletic FC Podcast, host Ayo Akimolere delves into the contentious topic of whether it is ever acceptable for football supporters to boo their own players. The discussion is sparked by the recent incident where Liverpool’s Trent Alexander-Arnold was booed by fans at Anfield following his announcement to transfer to Real Madrid. Joining Ayo are Liverpool correspondent James Pearce and senior football writer Oli Kay, who bring insightful perspectives to this heated debate.

Trent Alexander-Arnold’s Departure and Fan Reactions

Ayo opens the conversation by highlighting the recent booing incident involving Trent Alexander-Arnold. James Pearce shares his observations from Anfield, noting the unprecedented scale and intensity of the backlash. He categorizes fan reactions into three distinct groups:

1. Booers Feeling Betrayed: Fans upset about Trent’s decision to leave for Real Madrid, especially given his status as a local talent and previous aspirations to become Liverpool captain.

2. Opposition to Booing Itself: Supporters who disapprove of booing a player who is still wearing the Liverpool shirt, despite their frustration over his departure.

3. Understanding and Supportive: Fans who respect Trent’s desire for a new challenge after dedicating nearly 20 years to Liverpool and believe in supporting his decision to move on.

James emphasizes the emotional complexity of the situation, highlighting factors such as Trent’s local roots, his contributions to the team, and the timing of his decision within a successful season for Liverpool.

Quality of Fan Discussion and Comparisons to Other Incidents

Oli Kay praises the quality of discussions in the comments section of The Athletic, contrasting it with the often toxic nature of platforms like Twitter. He acknowledges that while booing players like Trent Alexander-Arnold is understandable to some, it is a multi-layered issue that cannot be simplified into a binary right or wrong scenario.

James reflects on previous instances of booing in Liverpool’s history, such as Lucas Leiva in 2008 and Roy Hodgson’s brief tenure, noting that the current reaction to Trent is unparalleled in its intensity. He attributes this to Trent’s exceptional skill level and his symbolic role within the team, making his departure a significant emotional event for fans.

Managing Player Departures and Club Narratives

Simon Hughes, from the Walk On podcast, is referenced to underscore the importance of players understanding the consequences of leaving a club. He argues that while Liverpool has enjoyed immense success recently, allowing players to leave without repercussions can set a precedent that may encourage others to seek opportunities elsewhere, potentially undermining club stability.

The Role of Social Media and Modern Fan Behavior

Ayo and Oli discuss the amplified impact of social media on fan reactions. Oli highlights how platforms like Twitter can exacerbate negative sentiments, making it easier for fans to express extreme views and rally support for booing. He contrasts this with past eras where mainstream media played a more significant role in shaping public opinion.

James shares a personal anecdote about how social media pressures journalists to reflect prevailing fan sentiments, sometimes at the expense of balanced reporting. He likens himself to a "rock in the emotional river," disrupting the flow of intense fan emotions by providing a more measured perspective.

Historical and Regional Examples of Fan-Booing

The conversation broadens to include historical examples of fans booing their own players, such as Granit Xhaka at Arsenal, Raheem Sterling at Chelsea, and Kieran Dyer at Newcastle United. Oli Kay argues that certain fanbases, particularly in London, exhibit more conditional support compared to northern clubs, where loyalty remains steadfast even during underperformance.

Underlying Frustrations and Broader Implications

Ayo posits that booing players may often mask deeper frustrations with the club’s overall performance or management. Oli concurs, noting that in cases where clubs are underperforming, fans tend to direct their dissatisfaction toward individual players, unfairly burdening them with broader issues.

Conclusion and Reflections

As the episode wraps up, the hosts reflect on the evolving nature of fan behavior and the challenges faced by both players and journalists in navigating these turbulent waters. They emphasize the need for a more understanding and supportive fan culture, recognizing the human aspect of players’ decisions and performances.

Notable Quotes

• James Pearce [02:07]: “There’s those that booed and jeered him and feel betrayed by his decision to leave for Real Madrid… then there’s those who think you don’t boo someone while they’re still wearing the Liverpool shirt.”

• Oli Kay [03:23]: “Booing your own player would not be for me, but I can understand the dissatisfaction with him.”

• Simon Hughes on Walk On Podcast [04:50]: “Players need to know they stand to lose something if they leave Liverpool. It’s important to show that decisions to leave have consequences.”

• James Pearce [06:35]: “The scale of the reaction to Trent has never been like this before. It’s because he is one of the best English players of his generation and a local lad.”

• Oli Kay [23:34]: “I have a bigger problem with booing Emmanuel Aboue because that was just a guy doing his best in a team that was low on confidence, miles away from home.”

Final Thoughts

This episode provides a nuanced exploration of fan dynamics in modern football, highlighting the delicate balance between supporter passion and player respect. By examining both current events and historical incidents, The Athletic FC Podcast offers listeners a comprehensive understanding of why and how fans sometimes turn against their own players, urging a more empathetic approach to fandom.

Transcript

[Advertiser]

Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? Well, with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers. You can even target buyers by job title, industry, company seniority skills. Wait, did I say job title yet? Get started today and see how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started at LinkedIn.com results click on terms and Conditions Apply. Hey, you know what would make your customer service help desk way better? Dumping it and then switching to intercom. But you're not quite ready to make that change. We get it. That's why Fin, the world's leading AI customer service agent, is now available on every help desk. Fin can instantly resolve up to 80% of your tickets, which makes your customers.

[James Pearce]

Happier and gets you off the customer service rep.

[Advertiser]

Hiring Treadmill Fin by Intercon, the leading customer service AI agent now available on every help desk. Ready for takeoff with your $300 travel.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Credit from Chase Sapphire Reserve. Booking your next adventure just got easier. Experience the world like an insider with Chase Sapphire reserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase and a member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply.

[Advertiser]

The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. On Sunday afternoon, Trent Alexander Arnold was booed at Anfield. So why do supporters boo their players? And is it ever acceptable? Here with us today, having been in Anfield on Sunday, our Liverpool correspondent James Pearce, as well as senior football writer Oli Kay as well. James, let's start with you on this one. You look we're still, what, four days away from Trent Alexander Arnold being buoyed at Anfield. Have you And I've listened to the walk on podcasts. We'll talk about it later. But have you managed to make sense of it yet properly?

[James Pearce]

I mean, it's been interesting speaking to people who were there about it, because I've never known anything really generate that kind of emotion. And the range of emotions and the people I've spoken to tend to be in three different camps. There's those that booed and jeered him and feel betrayed by his decision to leave for Real Madrid. The fact that he's a local lad and he previously talked about wanting to be captain, that kind of adds to it for people. Then I think there's almost a second group where they hated the booing. It was like, that isn't what we do. You don't boo someone while they're still wearing a Liverpool shirt, but I'm furious with him for leaving. And then the third group who are kind of very much in the camp of, come on, he's given us 20 years of his life. He wants a new challenge. He wants to step out of his comfort zone. He's always given his best for Liverpool if that's what he wants, let's all move on. Why would we want someone to stick around that that isn't still fully committed? So yeah, it's certainly generated kind of one hell of a response.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, I mean it has been quite a divisive response. Oli over 550 comments James match piece on the Athletic and I'm not here to tell anyone how to feel about a certain thing, but this definitely has got a lot of people flustered a little bit, hasn't it?

[Oli Kay]

Well, it has. I read through Some of the 550 comments on James match piece and I always feel like the Athletic, the comments section is an awful lot better than you get, you know, in terms of quality and nuance and understanding and people being reasonable and intelligent. You know, it's an awful lot better than you get a lot of time on the sort of cesspit of X or wherever Twitter. I felt reading through those comments. Look, there are some comments here which I really don't agree with but which are being really well made. Look, booing your own player would not be for me, but I can understand the dissatisfaction with him. I can understand that when a player is leaving in these, in these circumstances that not everyone wants to give him the happy, cheery send off that they gave Roberto Firmino, for example. It's, it's a different situation when somebody has run their contract down and not really sort of engaged, not really discussed it. And I think Trent Alexander Arnold was aware of all the ill feelings and he said in his video, you know, I know people are going to be disappointed. I don't know whether he knew how disappointed or how many people would be angry with it, but it's a multi layered conversation rather than I think just saying yes you should boo him. No you shouldn't. Boom. I think it's, I think it's a very complicated one which we can hopefully get into.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, for sure. Well, over on our dedicated Liverpool podcast walk on, Simon Hughes gave his view on the situation.

[Advertiser]

I also think there's a sense among some fans that they almost need to protect the club a little bit here, you know, and show players that when they make a decision that involves leaving their club or leaving the club, you know, you do potentially stand to lose something. What people find quite hard is for the last 10 years really everything at Liverpool has been pretty smooth. You know, there hasn't been too many moments where the club has looked like anything but a destination. But having your local player who was meant to be the club captain, who articulated that he really wanted to be, that it was his career ambition to leave, there's a danger that suddenly while other players think, well, I quite fancy going to Real Madrid, I'm sure pretty much every player in the Liverpool dressing room already thought that already. But I think it's very useful actually for these players to know you do actually stand to lose something if you leave Liverpool. You know, you can't just walk away of your own accord without there being some sort of consequence for that decision.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, that was Simon Hughes on the Walk on podcast and this is a really interesting one. You stand to lose something when you walk away from the club. Sometimes I wonder in modern football whether it's about the club controlling narratives. James. Or whether it's a footballers controlling narratives of how they exit as well. But also, look, these are businesses, right? To a certain degree. Liverpool have had a great season all round. They're going to get some money from the Champions League run, they've won the Premier League. Looks like there's more money coming in as well. The club is in a good shape. But he does make an interesting case there. Can you understand the heightened sense of emotion is. Because this is quite a unique case, especially around a local play in many respects.

[James Pearce]

Yeah, I can understand it. Yeah. I mean, I must admit Sunday night when I was coming away from Anfield, I was thinking to myself, you know, in all the years I've been going since 1990, I couldn't think of anything like it in terms of the scale of the reaction, in terms of how vitriolic it was. And I think back to. I remember Lucas Laver getting booed during a game against Fulham at Anfield in 2008. But it was never on that level. Not even someone like Roy Hodgson, who dragged Liverpool to the brink of a relegation battle was booed. It was more kind of the ironic cheers of Hodgson for England from the cop. And of course on Sunday it started off very subtle in terms of the Steven Gerrard song. And I thought to myself, when Trent was stood on that touchline, I thought, do you know what, that's clever because you're making your point. You know, Gerrard is absolutely adored so many years on because as much of an elite midfielder, he was he also showed incredible loyalty in the face of repeated attempts to prize him away. Then they sang the Conor Bradley song, a nod to Liverpool's future. But then obviously there was a significant minority who felt they needed to boo and jeer. And I think it is because the fact we've never really been in this situation, as Simon articulated there, the fact he is a local lad and also the fact he's so good, you know, that's the thing, you know, if he wasn't so good people, it wouldn't create such emotion. But you're talking about, you know, one of the best English players of his generation, as we've said, someone who had previously talked about being a one club man, wanting to be club captain out, you know, when he got the vice captaincy two years ago, you know, that was a stepping stone, he called it to where he wanted to get to. And also I think, you know, previously when people like Michael owen or Steve McManaman had gone to Real Madrid, deep down I think fans had to think, well, do you know what, we can't compete with that because we're quite a long way off where we want to be. But I think the fact that Trent is walking away from the Premier League champions, I think people find that really tough to stomach. And then of course there's this whole narrative about to what extent has he engineered this. I think that's another thing that generates a lot of feeling. The fact that he's going for nothing and when did he make his mind up? Has this been a long, long process where he's tried to get to this point. Now Slow Plot himself has said that's not the case and he knows that from his conversations with Trent that he really agonized over it. But of course, you know, people are very entrenched on their opinions on this.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, I think you're right. And we aren't to know what on earth happened in the background. But also, Ollie, you know, like, like any other human being, I would always say, yes, perhaps I said something last year, but mid season I just thought, you know what, maybe I fancy a new challenge, who knows. But I guess the other conversation really is, is that let's not forget Liverpool have done something quite extraordinary this season. And you know, dare I say it, does this overshadow the brilliance of this team this season? And also huge credit to Arne Slot for what he's done, taking over Jurgen Klopp because this has been a wonderful season for Liverpool Premier League champions once again.

[Oli Kay]

Yeah, I don't think it overshadows it at all. But I think it overshadowed what was meant to be another day of celebration at Anfield on Sunday. I've got friends who were there who said, you know, absolute carnival atmosphere, party atmosphere for the first half, the first hour and that as soon as Trent Alexander Arnold was about to come on and the mood changed dramatically. It just, it killed the party and turned it into something very, very different. Will he play for Liverpool again? Will he be involved at Brighton? Will he be involved against Crystal palace when the trophy is presented? Will he get the same kind of reception on that occasion? I think these are things for Liverpool fans to agonize over and there is not going to be a consensus on it because people feel very differently about it. So some I've got absolutely no doubt will boo him, some will want to cheer him and give him a proper send off and it's, it's a difficult one and I don't think it overshadows the achievement or overshadows the celebration. They had Anfield, what was it two weeks ago but it certainly could be the talking point on that day and that's, that's probably what Liverpool fans don't want.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah I, you get a feeling that and I do think about this. When Arnold Slott brought him on James probably no one thought this, it would be as major as this. It's a very weird one because what should have been or could have been a great goodbye sort of feels like a. I don't know a very strange PR thing now. It's like how do we manage this? How do we see the season out on a high without this actually being part of the narrative?

[James Pearce]

Yeah. Yeah. I think everyone at Liverpool will be glad that there's that. That eight day gap between games. Obviously they don't, they don't play again till Brighton away next Monday night and and of course the players have, have kind of got away. They've been over in Dubai continuing their title celebrations this week on the slot himself has been over in Ibiza.

[Ayo Akimolere]

What lodging it up in Ibiza.

[James Pearce]

He was at Ocean Beach. All right for some while some of us are still grafting but yeah there's a lot of food for thought isn't there in terms of as you said in terms you handle this final stage of the season. Because I saw some. There was a lot of people I saw say that Slott made a mistake by bringing him on. I think that's unfair on the basis. I think there's a lot of hindsight there because I didn't think that it would be anywhere near as bad as it was. And I also think from Slott's perspective, you've got to remember he's known for certain that Trent Alexander Arnold was leaving since March and the reason he's continued to pick him when he's been fit is because there's been no drop off in terms of his, you know, commitment and attitude. So. And Conor Bradley at the minute, as gifted as he is, can't play 90 minutes. So as Slot said himself, bringing him on, there was no sentiment there. It wasn't, I will give him a run out. It was, I want to win the game and bringing on an elite player to try and do that. And he, he kind of indicated that will continue to be his approach in the final two games. But I just wonder whether, I know, clearly there'll be discussions between Trent and Slot. I think probably to, you know, work out where the player's head's at in terms of the final two games. Would it make more sense to have him as part of the squad but not bring him onto the pitch? Maybe, but even then you've got, you know, as Oli touched on, then you've got the trophy lift and you've got the parade on the following Monday. Traditionally, you'd expect each player to go up to the cop with the trophy. You know, does Trent kind of just not have that moment or does he still have that moment and just take whatever comes his way? You know, I've had some people say to me, he shouldn't be part of the trophy lift, he shouldn't be part of the parade. To me, that is absolutely nonsensical because regardless of where you stand on his decision to leave, he's played 43 times this season. He's had a very good campaign in terms of the contribution that he's made. But, yeah, how Liverpool handle that is going to be a real challenge. And part of me thinks that a lot of those that felt they wanted to say their piece and tell him exactly how they felt on Sunday. I wonder whether now they've done that, whether, you know, in the last two games they'll feel as if, you know, I've said my piece, now we move on.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Okay. Well, James, I really appreciate you joining us. I know you and Simon Hughes did put your opinions down in the Walk on podcast. So I do implore people to go listen to it. It's a really interesting listen and actually some really good arguments on both sides. So, James, thank you so much for joining us on the pod today.

[James Pearce]

Cheers, guys.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Next we'll be joined by Carl Anka as we look at some other examples of supporters turning on their own players.

[Advertiser]

Race the rudders. Race the sails. Raise the sails.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching.

[Advertiser]

Over Roger, Wait, Is that an enterprise sales solution? Reach sales pro professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title and more. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started today at LinkedIn.com results. Terms and conditions apply. Ready for takeoff with your $300 travel.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Credit from Chase Sapphire Reserve. Booking your next adventure just got easier. Experience the world like an insider with Chase Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JPMorgan Chase and a member FDIC subject to credit approval. Terms apply.

[Carl Anka]

This podcast is brought to you by Aura. By the time you hear about a data breach, your information has already been exposed for months. On average, companies take 277 days to report a breach. That's nine months where hackers have access to your personal data. That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Aura is an all in one digital safety solution that monitors the dark web for your phone number, email and Social Security number, sending real time alerts if your info is found. It also includes a vpn, password manager and data broker removal to help keep you safe for a limited time. Aura is offering a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked. All for [e-mail] safety that's aura.com safety to sign up and protect your loved ones. That's a u r a.com safety. Terms apply. Check the site for details.

[Advertiser]

You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast.

[James Pearce]

With IO Accumulere Duroche Arsenal right here. Granit Shack is the big obvious example. Back in 2019 that was actually one of my first games reporting on Arsenal full time and it just seems like such a surreal situation. At first the fans were cheering him being substituted, some Arsenal fans actually cheering.

[Oli Kay]

As they take off for the captain.

[James Pearce]

Granit Xhaka, but then the vitriol that came after that was something I don't think I'd experienced.

[Oli Kay]

Shaka's reaction there not good.

[James Pearce]

The other example is Emmanuel Abuay against Wigan in 2008 where it was more the mistakes he was making after coming on as a substitute in the first half, which actually led to Arsene Wenger subbing him off. So a sub being subbed. But thankfully for both players Bue and Xhaka, that relationship with fans did get repaired and they enjoyed a few more seasons In North London.

[Advertiser]

Simon Johnson, Chelsea Correspondent here. For me I go back to Raheem Sterling and the treatment he got during the Leicester cup tie last year.

[Oli Kay]

Well, it's been a tough day for Raheem Sterling.

[Advertiser]

Not helped by having a penalty save, missing other chances and then taking one of the worst free kicks the competition in English football has ever seen. Sterling, who couldn't have put it higher.

[James Pearce]

And wider if he tried it, got.

[Advertiser]

Mass booing when that free kick went high wide, not very handsome. He got even worse booing when he was substituted. And essentially it was Chelsea fans saying enough was enough that they'd seen enough. Raheem Sterling and it pretty much was the end, beginning of the end of his Chelsea career. Chris Wa from Newcastle United Writer here. And for Newcastle United fans it's been a very rare occurrence for them to boo their own players. Certainly in recent seasons. There have been a couple of examples when Joe Linton, before he became a sort of top class moding midfielder when he was a bit of a flop of a striker, was booed as he as he left the field against Rochdale and FA cup time January 2020. Florian Tovan the same four years earlier against Watford in the FA Cup. But more significant really was the reception that Kieran Dyer received at St. James's park in August 2004. He was actually wearing the red of England at Newcastle's ground. But the weekend earlier he reportedly refused to come on on the right wing for Newcastle at Middlesbrough and Newcastle fans never really forgave him for it. He later admitted that it was the biggest regret in his career.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, huge thanks to our athletic writers Chris Waff, Simon Johnson and Art Dua Shea speaking there about when their club supporters have turned on their own players. Now joining us now to delve deeper into the issue we have our Manchester United writer Karl Ankir. Carl Look, Manchester United have had their own example of players being booed at home this season. Joshua Xerxe for instance was brought off at home to Newcastle United back in January. I mean from real memory. How unsavoury was that incident.

[Advertiser]

This was a bad game for Manchester United in December that had saw the floor fall out of the majority of their season. I think aspirations of trying to get back into the top four became very clear that United weren't going to be or salvage a good season there. Manchester United were atrocious in that first half against Newcastle United. This team has had multiple issues against some of the more physical teams in the Premier League and we all know that Newcastle are one of the most physical teams in the Premier League. So for the opening 30 minutes, United couldn't get a sniff. Something needed to change. Reuben Amren made the decision to take off. Joshua Zerxy make a sub and he unfortunately became an unwitting scapegoat for the collective frustration of several weeks, if not months of the Manchester United fans. A bit similar to what Art Dirochet explained with the Granit Xhaka substitution. It was first some cheers at the fact some sort of change was being made which then sort of progressed into boos. There was then sort of a interesting reaction at Old Trafford where there was booing, but that felt. It felt like as if a different section of United fans were booing the people who were booing, if that makes sense. Xerxe then went off to his credit. Didn't go down to tunnel and back into the dressing room, got into his jacket and sort of sat there looking quite sad. Unfortunately the reaction afterwards was quite remarkable. So the next home game United had was against Southampton. Zergsee is on the bench when he's doing his warm ups and coming towards the Stratford end by the corner flag a section of the Stratford end sang his name trying to indicate that the booing was a mistake and that they were willing to get behind him. Zerkse to his credit, has improved throughout this season. He's become a lot quicker releasing the ball. He looks physically f fitter and more climatized to the pace of the Premier League and a little bit similar to what Chris Woff has said by Joelinton. He's gone from being a sort of misfiring number nine to operating a slightly deeper role and being applauded for his work rate in a slightly sort of quasi midfield role. So Zerkzy gets the penalty to get Manchester United through to the FA cup fourth round, waves off Arsenal at the Emirates Stadium and people going what an incredible turnaround. He gets a goal against Ralph Sociedad in the Europa League as well and is it slowly feels like he's on his way to minor fan favorite status right now. And it all started bizarrely from being buoyed by Manchester United fans.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, I mean many of these conversations, Oli, are due to performance. So slightly different to the Trent Alexander Arnold conversation. But you know, Art spoke about Granit Xhaka. The Emanuel Aboue one really hit me because I almost cried as an Arsenal fan thinking can you just imagine being brought on and then being subbed off because of fans continuously booing you? But also, I don't know, maybe it's because I've got an African connection. I sort of just feel like he's out there on his own, you know, in a different country, trying to apply his trade. But, you know, it's. It's a really tricky one, isn't it, with football? Because, you know, this country is not the only country to boo fans. You know, we talk about Real Madrid booing their players when they're not performing that well. When it's down to performance, is it justifiable to a certain degree?

[Oli Kay]

No. To be honest, I have a bigger problem with that. I have a bigger problem with the eboue one because that was just a guy doing his best in a team that was low on confidence, miles away from home, doing his best for a team. I always feel with football, you can have your issues with a player. You can think that player's not good enough. You can think this coach is out of his depth. I don't feel you should ever really, really aggressively turn on a. A player or a coach because I know they are doing their best. Even if it's a manager you hate, you probably don't realize that he's working round the clock, ridiculous hours, sleepless nights, giving everything, trying and normally failing to find solutions. They get horrible treatment sometimes. I would have a different conversation sometimes about owners or chairman or chief executives. I think the. Those people often absolutely deserve the ridicule, derision and worse hostility of fans in some cases. But players, I generally don't think that. Certainly not when it comes down to the idea of, you know, if someone's done something egregious, if they've done something appalling, they dragged the club's name through the dirt, they've been unprofessional, but that wasn't the case with them. Emmanuel Aboue, can I go off on a bit of a tangent here?

[Ayo Akimolere]

You may, you may go on.

[Oli Kay]

I feel like there's a real. I was going to say North v South issue on this, but I think there's a real London issue with Boeing until. See, Carl's not sure about this. What happened to Emmanuello Boue, what happened to Davinson Sanchez a couple of seasons ago at Spurs? What's happened to Jorginho and various others at Chelsea? Raheem Sterling, I don't think you get that. That kind of reaction at Liverpool, at Manchester United, at Manchester City. Everton's a different matter because Everton have been absolutely in the mire for years. But there's generally a kind of almost unconditional while somebody's wearing the shirt, while someone's playing for us, we don't boo them attitude, I think at a lot of the northern clubs and northern fan bases, I don't think you have. For example, when we talk about the Xerxes thing, it was really ugly, Right. But it wasn't the scale, it wasn't the vitriol, it wasn't the ridicule that Emmanuel Aboue got and that. I don't know whether it's just a different mindset amongst fan bases. It's an interesting theory, but I think there's generally a sense in those London grounds you feel like it can turn against a player very quickly and it has happened very often. It's happened with a number of players at Arsenal, it's happened with a number of players at Spurs, Chelsea. We mentioned Andreas Pereira, Fulham, Fulham in a piece this morning. Why would Andreas Pereira ever be booed by Fulham fans? It's like there's a more sort of. Is the support more conditional? I don't know. It feels like there's a bit more of a fickleness.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Interesting.

[Oli Kay]

And a lower tipping point.

[Advertiser]

Interesting.

[Ayo Akimolere]

What do you think, Carl?

[Advertiser]

I never thought about that way.

[Oli Kay]

Whereas I think Man United, obviously, obviously they've been really miserable for the last. Last decade, relatively speaking, they've underperformed terribly. There have been all kinds of. I mean someone like Casemiro could easily be an absolute figure of hatred at. In another fan base. He's not. Well, FANS CHEERING the fact. The fans. The fan. The fans sing his name. Harry Maguire.

[Advertiser]

I don't know. I heard. I heard a lot of things about him last season.

[Ayo Akimolere]

I mean, this is interesting thing, isn't it? Because you've written about Pogba as well, Carl, you know, in that piece with all the other athletic journalists. Do you buy this theory? It's a north south divide.

[Advertiser]

But I mean there's so many lenses we can apply to this. We can apply to north south divide. If you want. We can apply class, right? Yeah. When we talk about the south in football, we're very often talking about London. It's important to specify differences there. We can also apply. There's a racial element in there that you can apply a racial lens you can put in there. So if we look at the players who have been booed by their own clubs, a lot of them in the 20 clubs that are on that piece are black football players. And then we can get into a discussion about who's allowed to be funny, who's allowed to be hardworking, who's allowed to be clever, who's allowed to be forgiven quickly. That's a different podcast for another time.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, for sure.

[Advertiser]

So there's so many lenses about this. You know, we could talk about whether academy players are more likely to be booed by their own plans or not. We can look at whether foreign players are more likely to be booed by or not. I'm sure right now someone is absolutely steaming at the ears and frothing out their mouth going, you have to bring up David beckham after France 98 as well, because that's also a huge, huge, huge application.

[Ayo Akimolere]

That's a national thing as well.

[Advertiser]

National one. We can also apply another lens. Lens as to the impact of social media and how that has changed football. Because a player like Sol Campbell getting a reaction, the reaction that he did in the Premier League during his time is quite different to the reaction that Paul Pop was getting, because now there's this thing called Twitter that can serve as a hornet's nest. So there are loads of different lenses you can apply to it, and I think it's this. In many, many forms of life. There is a very interesting question as what do you do as a consumer or as a fan of something? Cannot shake the feeling that your experience of this is getting worse. And what is a legitimate way to voice your unhappiness at the fact the thing you have paid for is worse than what it used to be? So the Manchester United fan who in the last 10 years is watching football players play nowhere near to the level that they used to on the Sarak Circus. Taylor, how do you express your anger or unhappiness at this? And sometimes that bubbles up in, I'm going to make a noise that goes boo at a football player who I don't think is good enough, or the Tottenham Hotspur fan who is unhappy with their current ownership model and believes that it's hamstringing managers and it means that it puts a certain ceiling on how do you voice that displeasure? And for some darksway fans, that means using certain hashtags and saying that you want the chairman to go. Now, I'm in no position to tell fans of other clubs how they should behave. I'm barely in any position to tell Manchester United fans how they can behave. But I think this is a really interesting thing in that we talk about it's not acceptable to do X and it's not acceptable to Y. To which, okay, but what is the acceptable way for a football fan to go? I'm not having this. We talk about, oh, well, the traditional economic argument is you vote with your wallet. So I haven't watched Star wars in quite some time because I don't care for Star wars anymore. I don't like the storyline they're doing. I don't. I don't particularly watch WWE week to week anymore because I don't particularly like the way they're doing storytelling here. And yet we, when you talk to economists, particularly those in the the realm of entertainment, they all describe football fans or sports fans as a particularly unique case that they're a sticky. They describe them as a sticky consumer. They say if you're, if you've got brown eyes, the only thing you're more likely to pass on to your children than your surname is your sports fandom. Right. This is a. We talk about how sports fans say this is in your blood, or they say I'm never leaving or they say I'm doing this till I die. So you are unlikely to vote with your wallet. If you I've seen Everton fans go, I know next season is going to be absolutely terrible here. I'm paying up. I talked to Southampton fans this season who are renewing their season ticket.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Even Southampton being relegated.

[Advertiser]

Yeah, I'm doing this for 19 years. I'm not going to stop now. So that argument of, well, the best way to voice your disagreement or your unhappiness with this is to stop paying money for it doesn't quite apply for football fans. So then you go, well, if I don't want to stop paying and I can't boo, what else am I supposed to do? So this is this. It's a really misshapen thing of what's a legitimate, acceptable, correct way for football fans to go. I don't like this. Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? Well, with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers. You can even target buyers by job title, industry company seniority skills. Wait, did I say job title yet? Get started today and see how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. We'll even give you a 100 credit on your next campaign. Get started at LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions apply.

[Carl Anka]

This podcast is brought to you by Aura. Imagine waking up to find your bank account drained, bills for loans you never took out, a warrant for your arrest, all because someone stole your identity. Hackers aren't waiting. Why are you? That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Your personal data is a goldmine for hackers, and Aura helps lock it Down Aura monitors the dark web, blocks data brokers from selling your information. Includes a VPN for private browsing and a password manager to secure your accounts before criminals break in. For a limited time, Aura is offering our listeners a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked, all for [e-mail] safety that's aura.com safety to sign up and start protecting yourself and your loved ones. That's a u r a.com safety terms apply. Check the site for details.

[Ayo Akimolere]

I think you may make a really good point in terms of the impact of social media in one respect and also I think about it from my position as a broadcaster and I'm sure you guys think of it from your positions as journalists. I always think about the media, Ollie, and punditry as well, and fan media as well, and how much this adds to this cauldro that can sometimes section off certain players to have, you know, a dart thrown at them because they're not performing that well. Because now there is way more noise around. If Sol Campbell wanted to move to Arsenal, for instance, there's so much noise around a story like that now than there ever has been.

[Oli Kay]

Yeah. So imagine if 24 years on the equivalent thing was to, to happen. Imagine if Harry Kane had run down his contract at spurs and, and joined Arsenal on a free transfer. Can you imagine the, can you imagine the, the, the backlash against that? I think that would have been on another level entirely. And, and I say that with full knowledge of how appalling and inhumane some of the abuse that Sol Campbell received was. I mean, everything seems to be more extreme now. Opinions are more extreme, reactions are more extreme and that was a pretty strong and enduring reaction back in 2001. So I, I think, I mean, I've noticed with our business changing, I feel like there was a time when the media would almost sort of dictate the public mood. Players would be terrified of the idea of getting six out of ten in a newspaper. And I've heard Gary Neville would be livid. First thing Monday morning, he'd look what mark out of 10 he'd got in the Magistrate News and the other papers. And if it was 6 out of 10, he'd go after the report, report reporter in question and it was 6 out of 10. Quite a lot behave now these days, these days. I don't think, I don't think players give stuff about what, any, what, what people in the newspapers say generally or on the athletes, you know, sometimes so incorrect sometimes, sometimes something we Say no, but relatively speaking, they must do, Ollie.

[Ayo Akimolere]

They must do. Do you not think they are aware of what's going on?

[Advertiser]

Oliver Kay, you cannot say that with a straight face.

[Oli Kay]

If you say what upsets players, it's generally not what is written in newspapers or in the athletic or mainstream media. Sometimes if things are clipped and put on social media or it's a headline and it appears on social media, but they don't. They're not looking at. They're not looking at what marks out of 10 they're getting in a newspaper. They're not looking at. It's when they're being ridiculed on fan sites or big sort of fan media sites or clips that go viral on social media. That is what really gets under people's skin now. It is. People like Mark Goldbridge, I think, would have a bigger impression in the Manchester United dressing room than you or I, Carl, saying that somebody isn't playing well. I don't think the media, the mainstream media is what is necessarily driving that.

[Advertiser]

Okay, okay. I'm going to give you a very personal example of how the mainstream media and the wider social media form interacts. This is a personal ant, though. This happened to me earlier this season. A couple weeks ago, in fact, Andre Onana has a bad performance in the first leg of the Europa League against Lyon, right? So the, the, the Onana matic bing, bang, bing, bang, boom, followed by the Onana mistake, errors, how two goals conceded. And then after this happens, of course, the reaction from the, from a large section of the online Manchester United hive mind is going, I've had enough of Andre and Ana. I'm finished with Andre and Ana, blah, blah, blah, blah. Andre and Anna, Andre and Anna can't do this or this or this or this or this or this or this.

[Carl Anka]

Or this or this or this or this or this.

[Advertiser]

So I'm aware of this at full time, pretty much on the full time whistle, open my phone all about Onana. And then myself as a journalist, I'm going, right, okay, this is the prevailing mood. My job as a journalist is to reflect the prevailing mood, but also to try and inform, educate, enlighten, elevate this, right? At the very least, let me remove some of these swear words and clean up some grammar. So I go into the podcast and I write this story and I write my match piece about what's going on and say, actually there are some more concerning things than just what Onana did, although what Onana did was deeply unfortunate for both himself and the football team. Now, what happens to me after podcasts trying to be keep it on a balanced keel rather than just effing and blinding about however someone might be feeling about. Onana is from Friday until the next Premier League game of football. My phone, my comment section, my email request. Are football fans going why are you taking it so easy on Andre Onana, right? And this is, this is that this is the, the new interesting form of mainstream journalism and online media and social media and whatnot. And one of my mentors once described it as you are the rock or the pebble in the emotional river they have and you are causing some form of resistance by not saying Andre and Anna or football player is xyz. And this is what is going on with Trent Alexander Arnold right now. Is it? If James Pearce or if a very prominent Liverpool journalist who is got a high ranking byline on a place with very nice fonts when it's okay to boo Trent Alexander Arnold, that rock in the river goes up and the emotional pull just goes completely there, right? You are the, you're the Dutch boy. That's how I view myself now in certain situations when a player has an incident like this. When Harry Maguire, when people were saying all sorts of things as Harry Maguire, I'm trying to be fair and even handed, but you're the Dutch boy. And now multiple times after Inanna's incident, I got two or three people emailing me stuff. Have you seen this? I had one person messaged me saying I don't want to cause a pylon on Andre and Honor, but have you seen this? And it was an AI generated collection of memes mocking Onana, to which I responded, if you're not trying to start a pile on Andre Nana, why are you sending it this to me? And this is the intersection right now in that I've only been covering Manchester United for five years. My life on this planet loving and watching football is, is finite and not as large as other people. So I can't tell you if this is entirely new phenomenon or if this is what it's always been, but this is my feeling to how this sort of thing reacts and this is thing responds. And, and I think things have got worse since COVID since we've returned back to football after Covid because I think just the way we socialize with each other has been changed after lockdown. But what I find now is when football player has bad day or football player has done something bad that football fans want to yell at. What you often get now is sort of a collection of football fans Sort of asking people in positions of power going, please give us the green light to go. Full anger or full mockery of this individual.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Isn't it a fascinating conversation in terms of, is it the fault of the player or are those frustrations from fans masking a deeper frustration that their club aren't performing that well?

[Oli Kay]

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's. In a lot of the situations we've talked about that that is exactly the case. I mean, Emmanuel at Bue Won or the, you know, Granit Xhaka one at Arsenal, what was it, 2019? Arsenal was a pretty unhappy place. There was a lot of discontent. And Granit Xhako, you know, sideways passes, big, big transfer fee, slightly erratic, poor disciplinary record. Not somebody that perhaps the fans had found themselves able to relate to by that point. Obviously, that did come later. He was an. He was a whipping boy. There's always. There's always a. There was always a whipping boy in any team, really. But in a team that's underperforming, where there's a lot of discontent, and often when it's towards a club or an ownership or a manager or the team as a whole, it often ends up being sort of all lumped on one player. And that's horrible when that happens. I think Trent Alexander Arnold situation is almost the opposite of that, where everything feels so perfect for Liverpool fans at the moment. Not. Not a cloud in the sky, apart from suddenly this black cloud of local lad boyhood. Livepool fan who's been talked about as. As being the club's next captain is enormously popular. Suddenly. Well, it's not suddenly. It's been a slow burner. Everybody's. I think most people have known this is coming, but announcing that, yeah, that I've had a lovely time at Liverpool and now I want to try something else. And suddenly something just boils over. That sort of anger, that sense of betrayal that if you really look at it rationally, logically, is completely disproportionate. And it's difficult. But I think a lot of the things that are thrown at him, as in, you said this when you were 20. You said it was always gonna be live ball. From when you're 20 to when you're 26, you change a lot. Your priorities change, your horizons change. They should do anyway. And they probably change more if you've achieved everything and then you've got real Madrid knocking at your door. And probably not just since he, let's be honest, not since he entered the final six months of his contract. They probably were knocking on his door an awfully long time, probably as far back as when he signed only a four year contract in 2021.

[Advertiser]

But then you get a different situation of does that make you feel better? Does that make you feel worse? I have a very, very nice friend who used to work for a very good newspaper in the United Kingdom and they said to me during COVID that a lot of what you are seeing in the United Kingdom is men. And I'm very specific here. It is very often men going, I feel, I'm going to swear now, sorry, Producer J is I feel. And I don't know what to do with the fact that I feel. And the only way I can get this feeling away from me is to make someone else feel. And you can see this in politics, you can see this in your sports fandom, you can see this in, I mean, even with NIMBYs arguing about the bins, right, A lot of people unable to deal with the temporary emotional discomfort or dissatisfaction of their life going, I don't know how to deal with this. I'm just going to push this feeling onto someone else. And I think that's what you got at Anfield. And I think I've seen that at Old Trafford on one or two occasions. Or football fans going, I don't know what to do with this horrible feeling, so I'm just gonna push it onto this person. And when someone else talks into a podcast, Mike goes, you shouldn't do that to a football player. The very often one of the very first replies is, well, that person's on loads of money, like they can deal with it. And you're like, well, they are still a human being. You can pay me 12 million a year, but I still don't wanna be called XYZ on every single device and every single format. And this is the nutrition.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, I tell you what, you guys make some really valid points and I often think, you know, some of the players that have come to the Premier League over the years have, have had to leave their boyhood clubs at some point to earn bigger fortunes elsewhere. And sometimes we forget that we'll leave it there because we could be here for two hours. Gents, I really appreciate your time. Carl, Ollie James, who joined us earlier, and all our journalists who contributed to their voice note earlier as well. Thank you guys for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.

[Advertiser]

You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast.

[James Pearce]

The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavrou and Jay Beale.

[Advertiser]

The executive producer was Aidy Moorhead.

[James Pearce]

To listen to other great Athletic podcasts for free.

[Advertiser]

Search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify.

[James Pearce]

And all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic.

[Advertiser]

Media company production the Athletic.

[Carl Anka]

This podcast is brought to you by Aura. By the time you hear about a data breach, your information has already been exposed for months. On average, companies take 277 days to report a breach. That's nine months where hackers have access to your personal data. That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Aura is an all in one digital safety solution that monitors the dark web for your phone number, email and Social Security number, sending real time alerts if your info is found. It also includes a vpn, password manager and data broker removal. To help keep you safe for a limited time, Aura is offering a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked. All for [e-mail] safety that's aura.com safety to sign up and protect your loved ones, that's aura.com safety terms apply. Check the site for details.