James Horncastle (3:16)

I think we tend to use the Champions League as a barometer for the strength of leagues. I do think Serie A is judged to a higher standard than say La Liga or the Bundesliga just because of what it did in the past, particularly in the 80s, 90s and 2000s. You don't, for example, hear people talking about a crisis in La Liga when Villarreal and Athletic don't even make it to the playoff round of the Champions League. Usually you just look at what are Barcelona doing? Barcelona finished top eight, Madrid second season in a row in the playoff round. But for City A, financially, of course, you know, it would have been much better for Juventus and Inter to progress. Inter made a lot of money from this competition last year. The most lucrative Champions League ever. And they go all the way to the final for the second time in three years. I would say that rather than making generalizations about the state of the league, you just have to look at what's been going on at the clubs involved. So in Juventus's case, you know, they had three coaches in 2025. If you're going through that many coaches in a calendar year, it tells you that something's wrong either with the structure of the club or with the squad. And I think with Inter, after four years of Simone and Zaghi, you've got Christian Keevu. It's his first big job. Yes, he knows the club. Yes, he's been in the academy, worked with young players, but this is a step up. And whilst he's doing a very good job in the league where Inter At 10 points clear, this is his first ever Champions League campaign. So I think rather than saying this is Serie A in terminal decline, it's better to just look at the club specific and season specific explanations for maybe why these teams have not got out of this playoff round.

Ayo Akimolere (5:13)

Okay, from an outside looking surprise to see Inter go out so soon.

Thomas Hill (5:16)

Yeah, I mean, I think it's always a surprise to see last season's finalists exit at that, at that stage of the competition. I think obviously J. James will know well, but felt like something of an overachievement in some ways into reaching those two Champions League finals in recent years. I think some of the key members of that team, Acherby I think hasn't been quite as ever present this year. Right. In losing. Inzaghi I think is, is big as well. Clearly he played a massive role in those, in those two Champions League finals. So. And yeah, I can only really agree with James there in terms of judging leagues based on the Champions League. There's so many other variables that go into it. I think a league season for, and what happens across a league season is a much better kind of measure of where leagues are at the revenues they're generating, the viewership there's, they're bringing in. You know, just because Real Madrid were, were winning all those Champions Leagues, that wasn't necessarily a great advert for La Liga. And, and just because they're not now, that's, that doesn't mean that La Liga is not in a, in a good position either. So yeah, it really does depend on a lot of things going on at a lot of different clubs. So even though it's a good indicator, I think it's, it's really only that it's just kind of points towards a league's fortunes rather than necessarily explains them, you know, wholeheartedly.

Ayo Akimolere (6:33)

Something Thomas said that was really interesting and something I think you've written about as well, James, is overachievement. And especially with the Italian League, not really. And I'll probably go into it a little later, not probably having the same finances as let's say the Premier League. So based on that, what we've seen with Fiorentina Atalanta over the last few years now, obviously Inter being into the finals of the Champions League once again, is there an element of actually overachieving, punching above weight?

James Horncastle (6:57)

Yeah, I mean to reach two finals in three years, I still don't think that Inter get enough respect for that. Particularly that's the coach and the players. Because if you look at what happened between those Champions League finals, you know, an owner essentially gets kicked out and evicted for not paying back a loan to an American hedge fund. That team was largely assembled with free transfers. And I think while people approached every Champions League final that inter were in, for example, in 2023, the expectation was that was going to be the most one sided final. Remember that was the narrative between Inter and Pep Guardiola's Man City Instead, it was a very competitive game. You know, it was only sort of midway through the second half that City broke the deadlock. And even then, if Lukaku scores, if Dimarco doesn't fluff a chance, maybe the game goes to extra time in 2025. Again, inter sort of proved their doubters wrong. You know, people had said in 2023, well, they only got to the final because they had an easy draw in the bracket. You know, they got Porto, Benfica, they played a semi final against their rivals AC Milan. Well, last year, I mean, they knocked out Bayern in the quarterfinals and they knocked out Barcelona in one of the all time great semi finals. And I think as much as people can say have maybe they got a bit lucky there, it's hard to get lucky over four games of football against teams of that caliber, teams with dramatically more revenue than you have got. So I think Inter deserve to be celebrated a little bit more rather than, let's say, denigrated on their showing in that Champions League final when they lost 5 nil. But the economics have never been more stratified. I mean, the Premier League makes three and a half times what Serie A does. It's very similar with La Liga in general. And that's why I always say that we need to stop talking about Europe's top five leagues. There's one top league and that's the Premier League when it comes to money. And then there are some big clubs like Real Madrid, like Barcelona, like Bayern Munich, like psg and the big three Italian clubs are kind of scrapping to still be in that bracket, whilst the league itself gets itself together on promoting stadium reform, on negotiating better TV rights deals. Because there's no doubt in my opinion, that for history and tradition, Inter Juve Milan are super clubs. It's just that over the last 10 or 15 years, either the league has let them down by not selling the league as well as it could do around the world. And yeah, the sales of Inter and Milan after Berlusconi and Moratti left, they've had to go through maybe one or two owners to get to solid, dependable owners. So let's see. I'm still quite optimistic about the future. Not about City A catching the Premier League, but perhaps really competing with La Liga to be considered the best of the rest.

Ayo Akimolere (10:04)

Okay, very quickly, I just want to pick up on Inter for a sec. I'll come to Buddha in a second because we need to celebrate them for a minute. But Inter is the an easier pill to swallow that they're currently flying high in Serie A, especially for Kivu.

James Horncastle (10:17)

Yeah. I mean, it surprised me during the game that San Siro never whistled, it never booed this group of interplayers. I think there's, there's an appreciation among Inter fans that they've been spoiled over the last five years when they've reached three European finals, when they've won the league twice and lost it on the final day twice. I mean, they could have won four league titles over the last five years. And, you know, when I left San Siro to catch the metro back to the city center, the fans, rather than complaining and grumbling, they were consoling themselves by singing anti AC Milan songs. Because I think we sometimes, as much as we've said, you judge a league or a team season on what they do in the Champions League. These leagues still matter to fans. And for Inter to have won at the weekend and Milan have lost, for there to be 10 points between Inter and Milan to be the team that basically stops Milan winning the league title this year, it means an awful lot to Interisti. And so as much as we can look at the headlines in the Italian papers on Wednesday morning and read about, no excuses, this is a disaster. Fair comment. What happened against Boda will not stop Inter fans enjoying this season if they win the league. And to be honest, they've had so much pain in the Champions League over the last three years to lose two finals. I think if Interwe were to get close to a final again this year, I'm not sure the fans would view it as something to cherish. Obviously, they would go into it thinking, oh, maybe we can win it this time. Third time lucky. But I also just think, you know how after you've been through one relationship, you don't want to get hurt.

Ayo Akimolere (12:11)

You've been doing the same thing over and over again.

James Horncastle (12:12)

You don't want to get hurt again. And I think there was an element of that in the emotions of the Inter fanbase on Tuesday night. Was like, when, well, we're not going to get hurt again, but we can at least win the league. So it's always interesting to see the kind of psychodrama of various fan bases across Europe.

Ayo Akimolere (12:30)

Buddha, we have to talk about Buddha Glimt. As well as beating Inter, Buddha Glimt have also had wins over Atletico Madrid and also Manchester City earlier on this season. I mean, look, considering the kind of money they've got, I mean, they've become giant slayers at this moment in time. Thomas, how surprising have you been with but a glimpse of Achievements in the Champions League so far.

Thomas Hill (12:51)

Yeah, I think particularly given what James was saying there in the age of kind of stratification and the Premier League being this all consuming beast. I think to have a team from Norway first of all and then another one with all the cliches of Arctic Circle and plastic pitch and stuff, it's just a great story to have in the Champions League this season. I think we should remember they were 32nd in the league phase before that game against City didn't have a win yet they suddenly put together this incredible run of beating City Atletico in their off season as well. Which you know is even more impressive now being into over two legs. I think Optus said it was the first, first time a team outside Those, those big five leagues had had beaten four opponents in a row from those leagues since 1972 or the 1971, 72 season when Ajax did that and then went on to, to win the trophy. So yeah, what they're doing is, is really impressive. I watched them against, against Athletico, against City. Obviously some of the, some of these two legs too. They play a kind of really fearless brand of football. Does feel like their, their coach Knutson is, is likely to attract Premier League interest at, at some stage. And yeah, playing in a way that they don't. I don't think they do fear anyone. I think it's City or City or Sporting next in the, in the round of 16 and, and you'd give them as, as good a chance as, as any team of, of beating those two.

Ayo Akimolere (14:14)

Yeah, for the brand of the Champions League. A team like Buddha doing well, beating these very big teams surely is exactly what UEFA been clasping their hands.

James Horncastle (14:22)

Yeah, absolutely. And it's been going on for five or six years now with Budda and I thought last year might be a high point. You know, them getting to a Europa League semi final. You know, how much further can they go? And you know, we've gone into this holding pattern in European football or this trend in European football where teams that emerge of boater size, they immediately, when summer comes and the transfer window opens, they get picked off. Best players go, coach leaves and the coach has stayed throughout that time even though there has already been interest from clubs in England, clubs elsewhere. Some of the best players have come and gone. I mean one of the stars of ber's win in both legs over Inter was Jens Peterhauger who left to join AC Milan a few years ago. Didn't work out for him. He then went to Eintracht Frankfurt. Didn't work out for him. He's back at Berda and has slotted right back in. And I think the magic of Berda is really the culture that they have got at that football club reminds me a little bit of Brighton. Not in Europe, but Brighton in the Premier League, where teams have looked at what they're doing and they have come for players, they've come for executives, they've come for coaches, and Brighton is still Brighton. They're still surprising people, they're still upsetting the odds. And Buda have done the same in Europe. People have looked at them, said, okay, we'll take that executive, we'll take that player, and it hasn't affected them. And I think that is something that is really heartwarming in European football to see that despite that economic stratification, there are things you cannot buy. There are things that are beyond the reach of Premier League teams, City, Our teams, Ligue 1 teams, Dutch teams, French teams. Because it's a feeling. Often it's a atmosphere around a club that has been created and you know that is priceless. And you can see that against all odds, it actually lasts.

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Athletic FC Podcast Host (20:21)

You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimolere.

Ayo Akimolere (20:25)

Let's talk about Serie A again. Then let's bring it full circle because Napoli out of the Champions League talked about Juve Inter as well. Atalanta still steaming forward?

James Horncastle (20:36)

Yes.

Ayo Akimolere (20:36)

Now I just want to touch on something you said about Buddha, actually, and also go back to A previous article you wrote about major clubs, big clubs and heritage, potentially holding them back from progression. Especially if we look, in this case, the Champions League. Could some of these bigger teams in Italy learn from a team like Buddha in terms of actually have to operate on big finances? But the scouting's right. If the ethos is right, perhaps we can change our fortunes in European football.

James Horncastle (21:03)

Yeah, I think they look closer to home. I think the big Italian clubs over the last eight years have looked to Atalanta and what Atalanta have done. Because up until eight years ago, that was a club that was considered a yo yo club, okay, that would get relegated, get promoted, get relegated, get promoted. And instead, what we've seen from them is they've established themselves not only in Europe, but in the Champions League. They've won something in Europe. Europa League final against Bayer Leverkusen in Dublin in 2024. And I know that particularly executives at AC Milan, when they were looking to reboot the club, they had this come to Jesus moment, which was very much, we need to stop thinking about AC Milan. We need to stop thinking like we are the AC Milan of Berlusconi, the AC Milan of the 1990s. Because back then, AC Milan could look at the Ballon d' or list, say, we've got that player. We've got that player. We haven't got that player. Go and sign him. I'll cut a check, whatever it's worth. Because that was when AC Milan and Siliha was one of the richest clubs and the richest leagues in the world. Now it's not. They can't compete for the same players that PSG go for, same players that the big English clubs go for. So they have to think smaller to be bigger. And Atalanta have shown the way for that. And so they have become a model for the bigger Italian clubs. And I think it's impressive, even though they went through three coaches in 2025, which I think a lot of people were expecting, succession from Giampiero Gasparin, the best coach in that club's history was always going to be difficult. And so for them to get out the league phase, they should have qualified for the top eight, to be honest. But for them to get out the playoffs with that incredible comeback against Dortmund goes to show that everything that was saying about Boda, that kind of culture, that understanding of how to run a football club in this age is still intact. It didn't leave with Gianpiero Gasparini. And I think Juventus and AC Milan still look at Atalanta with not envy, but certainly admiration for how they're continuing to be competitive.

Ayo Akimolere (23:33)

Yeah, I do think, you know, Italian teams have got to the final very recently. We talk about Inter twice in the last few years. But just in terms of economics of the, of the classic older teams, Real Madrid aside, does it then make it quite difficult to potentially win the Champions League in that respect? Because you look at the previous champions, Manchester City, psg, huge, huge cash banks coming their way. And I said, obviously with the caveat of Real Madrid, because it is just Real Madrid, but does it make it difficult for those classic teams that we see across Europe to potentially get to the summit?

Thomas Hill (24:07)

Yeah, I think it does. I mean, you know, get the world's tiniest violin out. Real Madrid would, Real Madrid would certainly, I think, probably feel like they, they belong in that conversation as well as a, as a historic club that can't quite compete with, with the Premier League really, I think certainly in terms of the Premier League's riches, the, the riches of, of those man city PSG teams, again, yeah, that tiny violence is really playing up. But I do think that is true that, you know, they, they can't quite compete on that level. You look at the January transfer spend of La Liga teams compared to Premier League teams, I think for La liga it's like 75 million euros for Premier League teams into the kind of many, many, many millions. And you know, Madrid have, have had to do a little bit like what James was saying there about Milan. I think, you know, they're not able to sign ready made Ballon d' or winners. Now you look at a player like Vinicius, he was signed, you know, before his kind of peak, before he reached his full potential. They've looked at the South American market in that way. Barca have had their financial issues and yeah, I think across La Liga that, you know, the tightening of purse strings and Javier Tebas very strict financial restrictions probably do limit them sometimes in Europe. On the flip side, it does mean that compared to 10 years ago, you now have much fewer Spanish teams going into debt, going into bankruptcy. So there's swings and roundabouts, I guess. La Liga would argue that it's now become a more sustainable league in some ways than the Premier League. But then the Premier League has all of the eyes of the world on it. So it depends what you're really looking for, I guess.

Ayo Akimolere (25:51)

In your recent piece, James, there's a bit that I really found really fascinating and I actually sent it to our producer guy because amidst the doom and gloom we're looking at in terms of Italian clubs, you actually showed that there is some light, some things to be celebrated. In many respects, you know, failure makes noise, but it's louder than relative success. Italian clubs have made eight European finals in the past five years. They began last season's inaugural Champions League phase as leaders in the UEFA's coefficient, starting with five teams. The national team won something of recent 2021, which I thought was really interesting. The youth teams have been champions of Europe at Under 17 and Under 19 and have reached the final in the Under 20s World cup as well. So it feels like something's being done in the background here that perhaps in the future we might actually see bear fruit.

James Horncastle (26:40)

Yeah, I think the Premier League is just so big that there's very little space, at least in the Anglo media for us to actually consider what is happening elsewhere. Yeah, the Premier League just dominates not only on the pitch, but also just narratives. And so I think in the age in which we live of sort of digital amnesia and sort of attention deficit economy, it's very easy to quickly lose sight of some of the, let's call it what they are, smaller successes that other leagues are having. And I mean, as an Englishman, I would have loved to have seen England beat Spain at the Euros in 2024. I would have been conflicted about England beating Italy at the Eurofinal in 2021, but I would have just loved to see my country win something. And yet Italy, through all of the problems it has. And I feel like we have this cycle and I get asked to go on radio shows to write about this all the time, the fall of Serie A. But I look at it and like this year is the 20th anniversary of Italy winning the World cup in 2006, still won the World cup in the last 20 years. I know people focus on the fact that they've missed the last two tournaments, might miss a third in a row. They still won the World cup in 20 in the last 20 years. Also won the Euros in 2021, playing a really countercultural brand of football, at least until the. The quarterfinals when one of their players got a bad injury and they had to change the way they play and were maybe a bit fortunate against Spain. They weren't fortunate against England. I think once they took stock of the context, Wembley, you know, people putting flares up their backsides and sort of thing like that, and they played through that pressure and beat England on home soil. To have two international successes at a time when the view of Italy and Italian football has never Been lower, I think is quite something. And again, over the last five years, to have made eight European finals. And okay, they've only won two of them, but, yeah, that is still something. I think that shows that Sevilla has a resilience even amid all of its flaws, its limitations. I don't think we should expect them to be winning finals and being in finals every year in the way that they were in the 90s. But I think we can still appreciate and maybe show a little bit more respect for what that league is doing. And this is a consequence of the Premier League's riches. A lot of people, you know, when they get to a final and they look at the Inter 11, they're like, okay, these no marks, you know, they're. They're free transfers or they've come through the Premier League, been adjudged to be flops, you know, sort of your Mkhtarians, the Udamians, your Lukaku and this sort of thing. And I think, yeah, anyone who reaches a final, regardless of the outcome, you need to sort of tip your hat to them. It's a little bit like that question to Eileen Goo in the Winter Olympics, the one where she was asked if it was her silvers were two golds lost. And she handled that really well. And I think Celia needs to have the Eileen Goo mindset, or the people who look at Cillian judge it need to have the Eileen Gu mindset. And just to appreciate that reaching finals alone is something that needs admiration.

Ayo Akimolere (30:13)

It's something fascinating because I think about La Liga in the same way, and I sort of think that actually look at the Spanish national team and how much they've achieved over the last few years. You know, Nations League, Euros and stuff like that. But also that is because of the league. A lot of those players are actually coming from La Liga in a way that actually sometimes we struggle to find a team in the Premier League of English players to patch up this English national team. So you. The Premier League might get the headlines, but actually on a national level and even across European football, La Liga is still producing at the top tier.

Thomas Hill (30:45)

Yeah, and that's a good point that James makes about Italy having reached the World cup recently. Obviously, Spain's international success. I do wonder if that comes down to coaching in some ways, like the success of Italian coaching, of Spanish coaching. Arguably, those financial constraints mean that you have to think about things in a more intelligent way. I'm not necessarily talking here about Barcelona and Real Madrid, because I think sometimes that doesn't quite bear out, but certainly for some of the, you know, quote unquote, smaller teams like Villarreal in, in recent years winning the Europa League, there was that crazy record that Spanish sides had, I think dating back to the early 2000s before that conference league final defeat for Betis against Chelsea where they'd won all the finals. And I think they do that does come down to the success of, of Spanish coaching, which is a big thing. And that's not something which is down to transfer, spend or what stars you're bringing in. It's what kind of new ideas are you bringing to the table. And even, you know, Real Madrid's most recent Champions League success, I think Ancelotti has to do that in a way where it is a bit different to, to a Premier League side that wasn't necessarily just putting the best players out on the pitch. I think he, I think he played a key role in the dressing room. He has a really patched up defense for, for that entire season. Lost Thibaut Courtois for most of the season to an ACL injury. Alaba and Militao as well. So Spanish sides, Italian sides, probably all the sides outside of the Premier League have to think about things usually I'd say in a more intelligent way sometimes than those Premier League sides who are used to reaching those, those latter stages of the Champions League.

Athletic FC Podcast Host (32:27)

This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akimolere.

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Ayo Akimolere (33:30)

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James Horncastle (34:01)

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Thomas Hill (34:47)

Valverde wins it back and now then Vinicius Junior One on one against Otamendi.

Matt from P1 (34:50)

Bearing down on goal, it's Vinicius Junior.

Ayo Akimolere (34:54)

Let's talk about Real Madrid beating Benfica in the second leg. Vinicius Junior of course, I mean, who else would have scored the winner in many respects, But I couldn't help but look at this Real Madrid team and think, remember the days of Tony Cruz, Modric Benzema? It's a very different team and if I'm honest, it felt like they made quite a meal of these last two legs in many respects.

Thomas Hill (35:14)

Yeah, it was, it was definitely hard going. I think that the positives are that Vinicius is right back in form. I mean, you know, amid everything that's happened this, this past week he scored I think six goals in his past five games when he had two in his previous 22. So, you know, clearly he's become the, the man for the big occasion again, which is great for Madrid given that Mbappe is out with this left knee discomfort which we, you know, we kind of don't know when that's going to end. But yeah, defensively it's, it's really shaky. Kind of ironic given you've got Arbolo in charge, a player who had a great, great defensive career. But yeah, the, the sort of comical defending for the Benfica goal last night where Asensio almost puts into his own net and Courtois is forced into this great save. It's just a slightly odd mishmash at the back of, of kind of youngsters veterans. Carreras is probably the only one of the defensive signings from the summer that's, that's truly settled in at the moment. Alexander Arnold is, is kind of getting there and yeah, it just. It seems to me you never want to write Madrid off given their recent history in the competition. But with a defense like that, I don't think they'll be going much further. Maybe even going out at the, at the next round and that would. Yeah, I know.

Ayo Akimolere (36:27)

And I'll probably say that about Real Madrid, Thomas.

Thomas Hill (36:30)

It'll probably be the opposite now and they'll go on to win the final. I just think that with Arboloa in charge and that promotion from Castilla, those kind of parallels to Zidane are easy to make and I'm sure they will happen if they make it through the. The round of 16, but I wouldn't expect them to. To go much further with this kind of patched up defense really quickly.

Ayo Akimolere (36:49)

Talk about psg, who narrowly saw off Monaco again, blessed his champions. I mean they're struggling at the moment, the only marginally at the top of Ligue 1 at the moment next to long. But I mean, what is going on with Enrique's team? Star studded.

James Horncastle (37:05)

Yeah, I think we shouldn't underestimate the impact of last season. Treble, no time off. Go to club. World Cup.

Ayo Akimolere (37:13)

World Cup.

James Horncastle (37:14)

Yeah, they went all the way. Yeah, they reached the final which they lost to Chelsea. And I wouldn't say that they haven't been the same team since, but yeah, I think the fatigue has, has accumulated. They made a strange decision in the summer which was to not give Giga Donnarummer a new contract. And you know, I was listening to Tomas there talk about Madrid and their prospects in this competition. And I always remember when, when Madrid beat Dortmund, I think in the Champions League final, Ancelotti was asked, you know, sort of how did you win this? Or maybe it was against Liverpool, how did you do this? And he was like, well, the goalkeeper made saves and the striker scored goals. Simple. And I still look at Madrid and I think they've got Courtois and they've got. Yeah, Mbappe. Once he comes back, even if they haven't got him, they've got Vinicius and that sort of thing. The midfield is. Is not the modric and cross one that you've touched upon there IO but they've got the goalkeeper and they've got the striker. With psg, they don't have the goalkeeper. You know, the, the guy who came in Fedonarum as Chevalier has had a bad time of it where they've promoted Safonov, the Russian, and then that kind of fluidity that they had last year, I think they found it really hard to recapture it. I. I thought it was fascinating a couple of weeks ago to see Usman Dembele, the current Ballon d' or winner, sort of call out his teammates and talk about how they need to be more of a collective. And that was somewhat ironic, Tomas, I don't think. I think because it was once upon a time that Usman Dembele was viewed as the player who was too individual, did not do enough work for the team. And so for him to sort of assume this leadership role and see something he doesn't like in what people used to see in him and criticize him for, I think shows that maybe not that not all is well, but that they are some way off where they were last year. And for all we just expect them to be able to flip a switch and become the team that they were in the spring last year. I think we've seen that in football. It's not that easy. I remember Pep Guardiola's Bayern team. Everyone would. Would always say, oh, yeah, but when the knockouts come around, they'll flip a switch. And it's not something you could easily just. You can easily do. So I think the Champions League is wide open this season, which, again, is. Is why I wouldn't write off Madrid. Yeah, good point.

Mark Bittman (40:03)

Good point.

Ayo Akimolere (40:04)

Yeah. That was my final question very quickly from the two of you. It's wide open. I mean, congratulations to Newcastle as well. And I'd like Madrid also through against the last 16. Who is your favorite in one. Just give me one team each to win the Champions League this season.

Thomas Hill (40:18)

I think for me, it's. It's Bayern. I think they've. They've been, I would say, overall, the most. Most consistently kind of excellent. I would have said. I probably would have said Barca, but I just think again that their defense has been very ropey. Not looking anywhere near as on it as last season when they were obviously that, you know, a cherry goal away from. From making the final. So, yeah, buying for me.

James Horncastle (40:43)

Arsenal.

Ayo Akimolere (40:44)

All right. Arsenal to win the Champions League. We love to hear it. James, thanks for your time and also, Thomas, thanks for your time as well. And also thank you guys for joining us. Matt will be with you tomorrow for the preview to look ahead to the Premier League action for the weekend.

Athletic FC Podcast Host (41:01)

You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavrou, and Jay Beale with editing by Paul Iliff and Nick Thompson. The Executive producer is Adey Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic wherever you get your podcasts. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.

Mark Bittman (41:40)

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