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- [00:01]
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- [01:36]
Ayo Akimwalere
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimwalere. Rafinha is having an incredible season at Barcelona.
- [01:43]
Thomas Hill
Amin Yamal and Rafinha is in.
- [01:46]
Ayo Akimwalere
This could be the hat trick for Rafinha.
- [01:49]
Thomas Hill
It is. The match ball goes to the Barcelona captain who has surely just put this game out of the reach of Bayern Munich.
- [02:01]
Ayo Akimwalere
After being pushed towards the Nou camp exit during the summer, the Brazilian has grown into one of Hansi Flick's most important players. So how has Rafinha reinvented himself to become one of Europe's most effective players? Here with us today we have the Athletics, Thomas Hill, Lopez Manchero and Phil Hay is with us as well. Now Phil, look, Rafinha was involved in two of Barca's goals as they came from behind to beat Atletico 42 on the weekend. He's now listen to this tally got an incredible 45 goal contributions. That's 45 goal contributions in 42 appearances in all competitions. I know you saw him at Leeds, but this development of his is is extraordinary.
- [02:46]
Phil Hay
It is. I have been badgering you to do this for a while, partly because I did enjoy watching him so much at Leeds, but partly because this season has been so exceptional that he's, he's starting to move out on his own or certainly into a teeny tiny group of, you know, properly world class players who are out in front of the rest. I mean, when, when he was in the Premier League, you could definitely see the roots of the player he is now. The talent in the flare was very obvious as was the sort of inner self confidence that he definitely. So I wouldn't say that he's, he's changed much or changed a great deal stylistically. He strikes me as quite a classic winger, you know, a bit like something out of the 1990s with definite, you know, 21st century traits as well. But when he gets the ball, particularly if the space around him is, his instinct is to tear away with it. It's, it reminds me a bit of like Andre Kanchelski's for our retro listeners. You know, have pace, you know, we'll, we'll absolutely burn it. And his pace is so extreme that trying maintain him is, is, is pretty thankless. I, I read a piece a week or so back which was an interview the Athletic did with Robert Perez, the ex Arsenal player, and he was picking out his favorite forwards and his favorite or wide forwards and wingers and Rafinha naturally made the cut. And his observation of him, and he clearly loves Rafinha, was that in his words, he has something different. His touch is superior to other players. It's so clean and you, you really can see that. I mean those shots from distance, a bit like the one against Bitton FICA in the Champions League a couple of, couple of weeks back, they're a bit of a trademark for him. I saw that for the first time with Leeds away at Everton in 2020. That was his first Premier League goal. And you always feel like the goalkeeper should get there because he is so far out, but the hit is just too sweet. It is like Peter said, too, too clean. And I think as they would say in the U.S. he, he goes down as a clutch player. That was certainly true at Leeds and it's true at Barcelona, but I think it's true to an even greater degree in Spain. And that's what I'd say he's enhanced in the time since he moved on from England in the Premier League. His ability to decide the game time and time again at a properly world class or Ballon d'or level.
- [04:58]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, I mean I sort of alluded to it at the top there. You know, let's say Barca end up winning the Champions League and he also ends up winning La Liga this season. Surely he's got to be one of the top contenders for the Ballon d'or.
- [05:10]
Phil Hay
I would think that he's going to be in the conversation one way or the other. Barca have it all in front of them. They could do the treble between the Copa del Reyes, La Liga and the Champions League and I think they've got a serious chance of actually doing that. Probably come down to injuries and Real Madrid as much as anything in the end. But his numbers are so good across goals and assists that he will be part of the reckoning and he will attract some votes. Whether or not Barca do what they want to do and finish with a raft of medals, he just is that good. And you know, the weekend you were talking about against Atletico Madrid is just a kind of standard Saturday or Sunday for him at the moment. This is what he's doing every time. And as I say that, I think is. Is where you've seen the enhancement in him is. Is to be able to carry. Carry that pressure consistently and also to do it at a club like Barcelona where there just is nowhere to hide.
- [06:02]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, for sure. Thomas, you know, we've spoken so much about Barca's financial situation, but you know, how much credit does Rafini himself deserve for backing himself? You know, I mentioned it at the intro there, there was a chance this was a player old in the summer.
- [06:20]
Thomas Hill
Yeah, for sure. And not just this summer, just gone, but the summer before as well. We know from our colleague Paul Bayus that Barca were willing to listen to offers to him largely because that's the nature of their financial situation. Raphinho arrives from Leeds in 2022 for 55 million pounds in principle, which is no small fee for Barca in their current financial situation. Remember, that's the summer where they're pulling levers to registered players, basically selling off stakes in their future business for upfront cash hits. And there's been plenty of times, as Rafinha has mentioned himself, when he's had these moments of self doubt. He talked about feeling pressure that made him think of leaving, seeing reports that the club wanted to sell him and that can't have been easy for him to deal with. I think a lot of far lesser players than him would have crumbled under that pressure. A lot of Barca signings in the last couple of years have crumbled under that kind of Pressure, that kind of noise. So to rise above that and to become, you know, not just a key player, but an absolute leader in this team, a captain as voted for by his teammates. It's. It's huge. And as we were saying there, it's. It's Ballon d'or form that he's showing at the moment.
- [07:26]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, that. That idea that you step up on the big stage, Phil, it's really interesting because I remember when he was at Leeds and there were a whole heap of Premier League clubs that. And not global clubs, actually, that were sort of touted to sort of take his signature, go into Barcelona, in a situation whereby Barcelona probably wasn't in their best financial situation. This is someone, I think, and I don't know if you saw it at Leeds that Thomas has just alluded to. There's a leadership something there. There's something there that this is a guy that wants to prove himself at the top stage.
- [07:57]
Phil Hay
Yeah. That summer 2022 is probably worth revisiting just for some background. Leeds had stayed up by the skin of the teeth in the Premier League. They've been lucky, to be quite honest. But he was still cut above by a distance. And you were to look at him and think, why on earth is he in a relegation battle? He's too good for this. And he was always leaving that summer. I mean, there was never any question that he was. He was going to go. Arsenal had a close look at him, but never got close to a deal. Chelsea were ready to pay and Leeds really like the Chelsea deal because they knew that Chelsea would be good for the money. It was like the safe transfer for them. The unsafe or the ludicrously complex transfer was Barcelona. Because Barca, as Thomas was explaining, were a mess, like pulling levers, trying to free up money as they do. It wasn't even really that clear if they could afford him. But from a long way out, Raphinha was only interested in that move. It was basically Barcelona and nothing else. It had to be them. His agent at the time, and I don't think he still is, but his agent was Deco, who is now sporting director at Barca and was ultra tight with them. So we can speculate as to how much he influenced Raphinha, wanting to go there above all other options. But because he was dead set, Leeds basically had to show extreme patience to get it done. So much so that there was a penalty clause inserted in the end which said that if Barca didn't pay as agreed on time, whatever it was, I think they were on the hook for about 10 million euros extra on top of the fee. But what was quite fascinating is that at the time, Barcelona weren't in particularly great shape. They'd finished a long way behind Real Madrid and obviously they were pretty chaotic off the pitch. So he's kind of become two things at Barca. That not ideal standing start, but also this slightly weird relationship he had with the club and Xavi initially as well. There were times when it felt like he was definitely headed for a partner of ways. And he has said, you know, since that the relationship with Xavi was okay. It was. Was fine. Even though he felt like he was always going to get substituted after 60 minutes. And it was a really unhappy time for Xavi, who just seemed thoroughly sick of the place by the time he left. But I mean, as it stands, they're just aren't many more valuable players anywhere at the moment. He's as vital, I think, to Barca as Lamina at the moment, which is really quite saying something.
- [10:17]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, for sure. High praise indeed. Well, Raphinha is already onto 11 Champions League goals this season. That's more than any Brazilian player has managed in any single season in the competition's history. So now's a good time to check in with the athletics. Jack Lang on how Rafinha is viewed in Brazil.
- [10:36]
Phil Hay
Five man wall Rafinh. Brazil grabs the opener in Santa Clara.
- [10:45]
Jack Lang
So it took quite a while for Rafinha to gain recognition in Brazil. That's mainly because he left the country before he played senior football. You know, went Vittoria in Portugal very early, then to Sporting, to Rennes, to Leeds. And it was only then at that point when he got a Brazil call up, which took a few people by surprise. In Brazil, obviously the Premier League is a massive thing there, but not everyone is paying close attention to Leeds United matches. And he came into the national team in explosive style, really started well in his first five, 10 matches. Scored a lot of goals, I think. Made a lot of people sit up and pay attention. Who is this guy? Where's he been? Obviously now at Barcelona. That puts a lot more eyeballs on him. And the way he's been playing has clearly made people start to take him very, very seriously as a footballer. In the last few years, Brazil's attack has been pretty dysfunctional, I have to say. Brazil's whole team has been dysfunctional, but the attack has been quite, I suppose, disappointing. As you've got Vinica Jr, you've got Rodrygo, you've got Hafin, you've, you know, three of the best attacking players in European football, arguably. And they haven't really clicked together. There's been a. The lack of a focal point. Neymar has been injured, obviously, but if you look at those three players I've just named, Rafinha has a better goal record than both Vinicius and Rodrygo. And I think he also has something that Brazilians really appreciate. He's got this kind of grit and determination to his game. And there's a feeling that when things get really tricky, as they have done a lot for Brazil recently, he is someone who will use that as fuel and he'll really step up rather than perhaps fade away.
- [12:26]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, high praise indeed from, from Jack. And I'm just thinking, Thomas, you know, you think about the Brazilians that have played in the Champions League. Neymar, Ronaldo, Nazario, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo. I mean, the list goes on. This guy has more goals in a single season in the competition than any of those massive, massive names. I mean, this is the top echelon of Brazilian player here.
- [12:47]
Thomas Hill
Yeah, definitely. And, and what's interesting, I, I think what Jack was kind of alluding to there is he feels a different type of Brazilian player as well. He. He mentioned that grit. I think that's, that's across in Raphinha's game. The, the athleticism, that kind of, you know, banging down doors, what, whatever the situation. I think if you compare him to, to past Barca Brazilian players, he's not really a kind of Neymar or Ronaldinho. He's not a trickster. He's. He's more direct than that. And in many ways he's, you know, even more effective at times. He's. He's got that brilliant goal record this season. He's freeing up space for Yamal as well. He's combining well with Lewandowski. He kind of does it all. And, and yeah, I mean, it's, it's. Is when he first joined you maybe didn't expect him to enter that kind of pantheon of Barca Brazil greats. And yet at the moment, you know, he's on course for that if he leads them to a treble winning season yet.
- [13:40]
Ayo Akimwalere
Phil, there's a subtlety to him for sure. He's got that Brazilian flair, I think, from time to time, but I don't. Can't remember how many times. I just keep watching. I'm just like. It just scores bangers, just pure bangers. And it's like sometimes when you need it the most, and that kind of attitude for me is the kind of attitude that can lift a team in essence as well.
- [13:57]
Phil Hay
Yeah, he's definitely box office and I think in that sense he's quite quintessentially Brazilian. He's also got the favelas background, doesn't he? Which, you know, provides a really, a really good narrative. There was a great, a great piece that he did on the Players Tribune about his, you know, growing up and what it was like for him in Brazil, which kind of opens your eyes to how it was and what he had to cope with. I still find it quite funny that when Ren sold him, he was less than £20 million and, you know, he wasn't exactly flying. He wasn't amazing there. But one debut at Leeds was pretty much all it took for, for all of us to say, you know, wait a minute, this looks good. So he's a steal of a transfer. And like a lot of Brazilians or the best Brazilians, he seems to have total faith in how high he can claim, you know, which seems to be pretty much right to the top. And there is that grit. I mean, it leads. The leadership aspect you saw through the way he played. You know, if you needed something, Raphinha would make it happen. There's an injury time winner that he assisted against Norwich in his last season, which should take a look at if they happen. It was like a Hail Mary at a point where, where Leeds were desperate and it wasn't like he was perfect. I mean, him and Marcelo Bielsa came to blows shortly before Bielsa was sacked. And I have to say, the narrative of him going to Barcelona was up and running months before it actually happened. It was quite a relentless drive and I'm not sure how helpful it was, but he's massively respected at Leeds and they would consider him to be, you know, one of the best players who've passed through the club, certainly one of the most naturally gifted.
- [15:30]
Ayo Akimwalere
Okay, no. So, well, let's move on because next we'll talk about Rafinha's growing importance at Barcelona with our Barcelona writer, Laia Sarbero Herrero.
- [15:41]
Thomas Hill
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akamwalere.
- [15:45]
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Phil Hay
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Ayo Akimwalere
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- [17:15]
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- [18:01]
Ayo Akimwalere
Okay, well, joining us now, we have our Barcelona writer Ly Cervelo Herrero, who was there to witness the incredible game in Madrid last weekend. Liar. What a game, by the way. But also, can you explain the importance of Rafinha this season for Barcelona? He's been so dynamic for this team and his game has definitely changed a Lot.
- [18:22]
Laia Sarbero Herrero
Yeah, I mean, I think that's a plot twist. Nobody was expecting more after all the rumors of Barcelona wanting to sell him on summer transfer window. And yeah, I think Raphinha is the perfect example for the youngsters on the team that are rushing to have their chance to succeed inside the team. He's 28 years old. He had three opportunities of being the player he is now and he had to wait first because there was Ousmane Dembele in his position and Xavi really liked Usman in the right winger. So he was just waiting and then they sold Usman Dembele and when he thought that he had the chance finally to Shine, a 16 years old player just pop up and he had to give his place to him. And mentally that's not easy to do because first you can say, okay, Dembele, such a great player, I can understand. But then 16 years old player, now we know who is Lamin, but we didn't know that he was going to be as such a good player as he is now one year or two years ago. So I think for him that was not easy. But he took the best solution that he could take at that moment, saying like, okay, he's going to be an unstructured player for the team. I can tell that. So I still want to play for Barcelona. I have to adapt myself to the situation. And he started playing in the left flank, also in the midfield. And I think he found the resolution and the respect for. For all the teammates who were watching him. Not just give up on the situation and say, okay, I'm going to leave and that's it, but just finding a solution for. For him.
- [20:08]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, yeah. What you said that was really interesting about him switching position because more often than not now I'm watching him drift into these sort of central attacking positions and now that's where the goal scoring is coming. Whole different light switching positions, but also coming in. Is that something that Hansi Flick you. You feel tactically has worked with him on?
- [20:27]
Laia Sarbero Herrero
Yeah. I do think that Hansi has found a place for him on the team. Even if I think that his transformation began last season and not only this one, but I think probably playing as a pure winger, he doesn't have that profile as probably Laminamal has with the dribblings and more deepness than probably Raphinha has, he likes to play more on the ins and I think that's how he has succeeded on the team. Because on the left flank probably you have Balde on the left back who has more Deepness and that can give that to the. To the team. And Raphinha can have like the freedom to just treat the side or to go more on the. On the inside.
- [21:13]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah. You know, earlier we were talking about his captaincy at Barcelona being given the captain's armband, the people's champion, the people's choice, the player's choice in many respects. I mean, you think that has helped him feel more that Barcelona really is his team? Because if you say a season ago, this was a player that looked like he was on his way out, this is a real show of confidence to say, look, you know, I'm here to stand. If anything, maybe give him a bit more confidence to really perform at the highest level.
- [21:38]
Laia Sarbero Herrero
Yeah, 100 agree with that. Because I think it took us, all of us, for surprise when that happened, because you could think that probably Lewandowski or another player as Gavi, for example, he's really young, but he has that importance to the dressing room. And when we saw that it was Rafinha who was one of the captains, we were like, what the hell? But I think that he was chosen for. For something. And I think he is like the balance between the youngsters and the more the older players. And on the dressing room, because it's a really unbalanced squad, I would say, in terms of age, because you have players on their 30s and you have player on their under 20 years old. And that are really important for the team. So I think he can relate to younger players, but he has also that experience that can give the. Yeah. The experience the team needed sometimes. And also when you see, for example, Aminha Mala and Alejandro Valde just dancing, accelerating goals and everything, he normally joins them. But when it's like the fourth goal or something like that, he's more like, okay, that's it, let's not humiliate the opponent. So I think he's like the perfect balance for that. The dressing room just knew that. And I think it was during the summer when he was with Brazil, when everybody in Barcelona was kind of saying that he was the player to sell during the summer. I think one supporter asked him to sign a Real Madrid shirt and he was like, no, no, you have to respect that. I'm from Barcelona, player and Barcelona, you have to respect the club. And I think the video went vile and. And maybe it can seem something silly, but it's something that in Barcelona really cares a lot for supporters, for the players also. And I think the fact that in the first or second game in Mon Duke this season, the whole crowd was singing captain, captain to him. Made him just feel more important.
- [23:39]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, Thomas, you know, we saw the partnership between Nico Williams and Yamal in the summer as they played for the national team on the wings and how they combined. Now, Lemal and Rafinha combined in a really interesting way, because I've seen Lemal just look up and place a beautiful pass in for Rafinha to add more to his scoring prowess.
- [24:00]
Thomas Hill
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think if many Barca fans had got their wishes in the summer, then maybe we would have been seeing a Williams Yamal partnership as well. Raphinha has talked about that. I think that was maybe part of the reason he felt sort of disrespected at times at Barca as well. But, yeah, Raphinha and Yamal have formed a pretty handy partnership themselves. Yamal, as Laia says, is he's maybe more of a pure winger on the right. Raphinha kind of varies from position to position. Sometimes he's on the left, sometimes he's through the middle, sometimes he's combining with Lewandowski. But definitely one constant I think this season have been his runs in behind. The goal I always come back to is that late, late winner at Benfica in the league phase, where, you know, deep into stoppage time after 90 minutes, Raphinha still running to chase that Ferran Torres ball up front and, you know, then scores with such composure. That's. That's everything about his game this season.
- [24:51]
Phil Hay
Wait, at the other end of the pitch, Raphinha. Oh, can you believe that?
- [24:58]
Advertiser
Can you believe that in the 96th.
- [25:02]
Phil Hay
Minute, Raphinha has won it for Barcelona against all odds.
- [25:06]
Thomas Hill
I also think he probably does help take some of the heat off Yamal. You know, as ridiculous as it seems, he was getting some criticism from supporters for not scoring enough. And it's true that 13 goals maybe isn't as many as you'd expect from, from him this season, even if he is just 17 years old. Whereas Raphinha is that consistent goal scorer that maybe does allow Yamal to do his thing as well.
- [25:30]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, Phil, I think he's 28 at the moment. You'd think there's a good two, three seasons still left in him with this young Barcelona team. Lewandowski obviously much older, so in terms of emerging leaders and already seems like one now, he could be a real staple in this team and hopefully lead this team to where Hansiflck wants to take them.
- [25:51]
Phil Hay
Oh, very much so. I think Thomas touched on something we should talk about a little, a little bit which is that, you know, this season has been a big shot in the arm for Flick's reputation as a coach, I think. And just to take Raffini in isolation, his. His physical prowess is one of his biggest strengths by a mile and it makes absolutely no sense not to exploit that. You know, if you watch back through any of his better performances in England, of which there were many, it was the hard running combined with the flair that did it, you know, the pace and the athleticism that made him such a threat. And he is pretty young at 27. He should be starting to peak now and looks like he's starting to peak. I read some comments from Romario recently down in the Brazilian press, which was saying that if Brazil have any chance or their only chance at the World cup next year, if they are going to go far in it or win it, then they have to take Neymar and Neymar has to shine. But I'm almost starting to feel like Rafinha is every bit as key to them having a real opportunity in the usa. He needs to be fit, he needs to be there and he needs to be informed. And if he is, then, you know, head to head in one off games. There'll be a threat every time.
- [27:03]
Ayo Akimwalere
I know we've been quite positive, but we have to also have to talk about Barcelona's financial situation. I know, I know. We just need to. Because I think, you know, since Neymar was sold, we were just looking at it and you know, you look at the kind of money they spent on players like Dembele, Griezmann, Coutinho, who didn't sort of work out. Can we say to a certain degree that this is one of the more positive signings in most recent times, but also a player that probably wouldn't have been here left to the administration not too long ago.
- [27:31]
Laia Sarbero Herrero
Yeah, but I do think that the really bad financial situation for Barcelona is the key that we are seeing the team that we are seeing. Because in which scenario would players that are under 18 have a chance to play for the first team and have the importance they have. It was a little bit of luck for, for the youngsters and they are proving that they have the quality to, to do it. But yeah, I think that Raphinha has been one of the recent most important signings for, for Barcelona for sure. If we have to take into account that Pedri, as I joined the team in 2019 also, he's not a player from La Masia, but yeah, in the recent years I would say he has proven to be one of the most important because maybe nobody was expecting it one year ago and everybody wanted to sell him. But now he's proving that he deserves to be. To be here. And we will see if that the same thing happens to Frenkie De Jong, which seems to be starting to play really good again.
- [28:33]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah. And before you go, Laia, we spoke about Rafinha being in the conversation for the Ballon d'or. If Barca end up winning the Champions League, potentially the treble this season, he's got to be the guy. Or I mean, could you mean Lamao sort of be in that conversation as well?
- [28:49]
Laia Sarbero Herrero
Yeah. Funny thing is that Brazil has been waiting for a Ballon D for a long time and everybody would expect that to be Vinicius. And everybody's talking now from Raphinha, something that if you think about that one year ago, it's crazy to think about it. But yeah, I think he has proven that he had to be on the list at least. I don't know if he is going to win it. I think Pedri is doing a massive season and since we are coming from Rodrigo winning the Ballon d'or last year, maybe it could be a. A good one. But yeah, I think if Russia wins the Champions League, which some has to happen yet because a lot of things can happen in two months. But yeah, definitely he should have to be one of the candidates for that for sure.
- [29:32]
Ayo Akimwalere
All right, thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate your time.
- [29:35]
Laia Sarbero Herrero
Thank you for having me.
- [29:37]
Ayo Akimwalere
Right, coming up, we look at what's possible for Rafinha and Barcelona to achieve this season.
- [29:52]
Thomas Hill
This is the Athletic FC podcast with I.O.
- [29:55]
Ayo Akimwalere
Acamolera. All right, Phil Barca are through to the last eight of the Champions League. They haven't been to the semi finals since the defeat to Liverpool in 2019. They have to be considered as favorites to win this competition. It just seems like a team that seems to be gathering momentum at this moment in time.
- [30:16]
Phil Hay
I'm inclined to say that they are the favorites. Not by much, I don't think. I think it's fairly marginal because.
- [30:22]
Ayo Akimwalere
Okay, fair.
- [30:23]
Phil Hay
Well, I don't think I've said this on previous podcasts. I don't think anywhere near enough has been said about Inter over in Italy. They're having an incredibly strong season and they 100% know exactly what they are and are supposed to be under Inzaghi. So they, they are a threat, I think quite a quiet threat, but they're definitely there and. And recent finalists as well. Real Madrid, obviously, and PSG certainly latterly have probably looked like the best side in it, actually, or the most accomplished side in it. But I think with psg, it's the question of whether or not it's going to run out for them at some stage. Whereas Barcelona have been. Been really strong in a very, very competitive La Liga this season, you know? Right. Right in the mix in what would have been an easy title race to. To drop out of, and also showed a good amount of backbone against Benfica when they were. They were up against it in the first leg. So I. I can. I can actually see them winning all three of the trophies that they're in for, you know, Copa del Rey and La Liga 2. The biggest threat, I think I said this at the top, was, is going to be the depth, resources, and injuries. Losing Marcus Sado for two months, which they have over the weekend, is not at all ideal. And the key players like Rafinha and Yamau have got to stay fit, but if they do, I'm not instantly picking out a team who are going to beat them in this Champions League. I think it is theirs for the taking.
- [31:46]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, actually, that. That Benfica game really showed something, especially with Lamina Mal and how influential he is on this team. But also Rafini, as you said, also just so potent. So, yeah, interesting time. And also Barc this season, Thomas, you know, if you look at that Atletico match, it's not the first time this team has sort of crawled their way back from, you know, a losing position, which, you know, is a real sense of champions. But I'm just thinking about the El Clasico and the level of competitiveness that is there right now. Do we see a shift in that. In that quality in comparison to, I guess, the Guardiola Mourinho years?
- [32:24]
Thomas Hill
Yeah, I think it's hard to say it's going to get back up to the Guardiola Mourinho years, given that we had arguably, you know, the best two players in the history of football playing on either side. But certainly it's become incredibly competitive. I think there probably was a bit of a worry that post Ronaldo, post Messi, you know, we might not see the same kind of quality. And yet their meetings have been really interesting this season. I mean, they've both gone Barca's way and in quite a big way, which is interesting in itself because usually you expect these Madrid sides to turn up for those. Those huge classicos. But that's also testament to Flick and what he's done, and I'm sure From La Liga's perspective, I'm sure there'll be excitement at the fact that Madrid have Mbappe, Vinicius, Bellingham, this really star front three. And that flick has injected new life into a Barca side with one of the world's best young players in your mal, the world's best young player and Raphinha and Lewandowski, another great forward line. So yeah, their meetings have become box office again and maybe that's not something that could always be said in the last couple of seasons.
- [33:27]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, that frontline's fascinating. How does it compare, do you think, to the front lines of the past? You know, we've had Henrietta Messi, we've had Messi, Suarez, Neymar, Lewandowski, Yamal Raphinha. I mean, it's potent, it's getting the goals for sure. But is it of legendary status yet?
- [33:43]
Thomas Hill
I think that's a bit of a stretch. Although obviously if they suddenly lead Barca to another treble, then maybe we will have to consider them up there. It's really interesting because you have a player like Lewandowsk there who actually at various points this season has been kind of questioned by, by the fan base, I think, certainly by neutral observers, maybe in, in patches where he's not scoring as much, but he again, he's kept up his, his incredible scoring record. As our colleague Michael Cox pointed out in his analysis of the Atletico game, that Lewandowski goal kind of comes out of nowhere. That's a, that's a classic striker's finish to, to drag his team back into it. Yamala Rafinha, perhaps interchange a bit more. But I do think we need to, to highlight Lewandowski's role and we'll see. I think it's hard to get up to the likes of eto, Henry Messi or msn, largely because both of those teams had Messi in them. But it's something special that Flick's creating. For sure.
- [34:36]
Phil Hay
I think the talent is there. I think Thomas is right. Messi is what really takes the forward lines that he was in above the others. I think at the best, Raphinha, Yamau, Lewandowski would fit into a lot of very, very, you know, top class Barcelona, Barcelona lineups. But it seems to me that in terms of reputation further down the line, Barca reputation. Anyway, it'll all come down to what they, what they win. I mean, I don't live in Spain and I'm not in the mix, but I often wonder what it's like for Barcelona looking at the hall of European Cups that Real Madrid have got. Because even though the club seem permanently so evenly matched and at the same kind of level and therefore with the same potential to. To rake in trophies in the way that they can, Real Madrid are miles out in front in that respect, a real sort of powerhouse. So I guess for this particular Barca team to resonate, they need to win the big trophies and they need to do the business in a season like this one where it's all in front of them.
- [35:38]
Ayo Akimwalere
All right, let's end it there. Phil, Thomas and la, thank you so much for your time, and also thank you guys for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.
- [35:46]
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