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- [00:00]
Host 1
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- [01:30]
Host 1
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [01:38]
Host 2
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akil Mwuelere. Arsenal are through to the semi finals of the Champions League for only the third time in their history and they had to beat the Holders to do it. Off goes Martinelli and he's only got Frank Garcia with him and he's in behind him. It's Martinelli. It's the semi finals for Arsenal. It's a glory night. They've come to Madrid and they've knocked the Holders out. So how far does the 51 win on aggregate propel Mikel Arteta's project forward? And more crucially, can they go all the way in the Champions League? With us today we have the Athletics, Arte Rocher, Guillermo Rai and Charlie Ecclescher. Now gents, before we get into this, let's hear from our Arsenal writers in Madrid, Amy Lawrence and James McNicholas. After the final whistle went at the Bernabeu and also the story of the tie.
- [02:39]
Host 1
That's why I came into football. That's why I came into management and especially to this football club. It's been 20 years since we had this type of game.
- [02:48]
Host 2
It's Thierry Henry. He scored. He scored for Arsenal in the bottom bow.
- [02:54]
Host 1
And for us, it's a great opportunity to build our own. And this is what we're here for.
- [03:00]
Host 2
It's rice again. I'd like to ask you about the most repeated word in the changing room during these days. Remontara.
- [03:13]
Host 3
Honestly, I've heard it about a million times since last week. I've seen a million videos online and.
- [03:21]
Host 2
Made by fans, made by kind of.
- [03:23]
Host 3
You guys, I suppose.
- [03:24]
Host 2
And yeah, really motivating stuff. Marino. And it goes to Bukayo. Saka lifts it over the goalkeeper. Arsenal heading to the semi finals of the Champions League. And cue the delirium among the Arsenal fans. The Real Madrid supporters crestfallen.
- [03:42]
Host 1
Wow. Full time at the Bernabeu. What a special night. 21 to Arsenal on the night. 51 on aggregate. The away fans who are still in the stadium are chanting, you can stick your Remontada up your ass. That's the message that Arsenal sent to Madrid tonight. Dismantling the myth, dismantling the aura. Two brilliant goals from Bukayo, Saka and Gabriel Martinelli. The last few weeks of this season could be so spectacular that we forget about almost everything that came before. Football's a strange game in that respect. For 19 years, I remembered that Thierry.
- [04:23]
Host 2
Henry goal and how that felt. And I think football is about memories and moments and people sometimes say, yeah, but it doesn't mean anything if you don't win anything. But you get the pleasure and the joy and the life. Exhilarating, uplifting moments of being in a place like this and seeing something like this before your very eyes and losing yourself. Yeah, thanks for that, James. And also Amy and Charlie. You can understand their emotion. Can you just put this into significance, especially this result for Arsenal, giving, I guess, the pedigree of Real Madrid, the most successful team in the Champions League. And also the first time Arsenal have reached the semi finals in so many years.
- [05:08]
Host 1
Yeah, you could say it's sort of the biggest overachievers in the Champions League against the biggest underachievers. You know, Arsenal have traditionally have kind of punched under their weight and. Yeah, first semi finals in a long time. Yeah, I think it's massive for the club overall, but also just the feeling has always been under Arteta that there's been progress. You know, they were looking this season to become the first team ever in Premier League history to improve on their points tally. Five years running, obviously they're not going to do that. So I think it was almost more important that, you know, if they were going to feel the sense that they were still moving in the right direction in this project, it was going to have to come from the Champions League. And so to get this win, this is, you know, you could argue this is their biggest win, their most statement win under Arteta, possibly going all the way back to that 2006 run. So it's just, it's just massive, you know, the whole feeling. And I think really for most people who support Arsenal or follow it closely, I think there's a degree of acceptance that this year sometimes happens. You know, I think it's okay to say sometimes you just have a year where you have a load of injuries, you have some fairly freaky decisions, things just don't go your way. It's not been this season in the League, that's okay. But now this, this Champions League run makes, makes that feel more like an aberration rather than a sort of like, oh, you know, did they peak with 89 points last season? I think now the sense is, no, the peak is very much still to come and started last night.
- [06:36]
Host 2
Yeah, I mean, maybe I'm having this up, but arsenal now have 100% record at the Bernabeu. I mean, the sample size is very small, but at least, you know, you know, last night, you know, they became only the only English judges to say to win there twice. There are lots of chats before this match and so much noise, the word remontade all the time. And Saka was also asked about it post match. You know, how these players and how has Mikel Arteta managed to quash that noise? Because there was a lot of noise coming out that, you know, what magic happens at the Burner Bell, you know, anything could happen in this tie, you know.
- [07:14]
Host 3
Yeah. I think Mikel Arteta did speak before the game and was asked about the noise and he said it was impossible to kind of keep that out. I think the level, I think Arsenal found, I guess the size of a club, Real Madrid is. They realized that this week in terms of how much noise could be generated around this second leg. But you saw that the messaging from Artseta and his players, David Araya, in the pre match press conference was all about going to win the second leg. And I think that was really interesting because to be fair, I actually lost count of the amount of times they both said they were going there to win rather than to hold on to the, the lead that they Already had and just kind of not lose by three. But I think symbolically, as you mentioned, IO to. To be one of one team who's won there twice in the Champions League, I think is special. And this why, when Gabriel Martinelli puts them, it means a lot more than just being a 21 lead. I think, obviously the game was already done at that point, but to have that, I guess, stamped on your club, I think is quite a big achievement.
- [08:32]
Host 2
Yeah, Guerrero, the messaging after the first leg, and it felt really poignant after the match. You know, the interview with Carlo Ancelotti, the interview with Jude Bellingham, the interview with Modric saying, you know what? You know, we're going to go back to the Bernabeu. We're going to put on a show. This is Real Madrid. This is what we do. We love to fight. You know, there is no such thing as impossible. All those wonderful messages, but it just didn't seem to go the right way for Real Madrid. You know, what do you put that down to?
- [09:00]
Guest 1
Well, annoyingly, I will say that in terms of football, and if we stick to. To the football, they had the same problems that they faced in the first leg. They were unable to produce enough chances the game. They had a lot of difficulties trying to build up their game. I think that they had a shot on target in the entire game in the 90 minutes, which I think sums up really well what happened yesterday. I think that there was a lot of frustration within the dressing room because of that. Also because of the defensive instability. We spoke about that in one week ago in this podcast. I think Real Madrid didn't solve their problems yesterday because there are a lot of problems. It's a long, long list. A very long list. And that's why it's difficult. Even if you have on your side the Bernabeu, the atmosphere and, you know, the funds.
- [10:04]
Host 2
Yeah. I mean, it's hard to dismiss the quality of the players that Real Madrid have. I was listening to a. Just before I jumped on the podcast, and the commentator basically said Real Madrid's performance was felt more hopeful rather than orchestrated. Is that what we talk about when we say perhaps this sometimes can be a team of individual players as opposed to a team that works cohesively as a structure?
- [10:29]
Guest 1
Yeah. I mean, I think that compared to. To the last season, I think that the team lacks some personalities, some key players in key positions. Even with Kylian Mbappe's arrival, we are always constantly talking about him, but it's not only about him. It's about the lack of Tony Kroos Jose Lu Nacho. I think that the system, you can feel like the system needs something else. Ancelotti hasn't been able to. To overcame this need or to, you know, to accomplish the need of something else.
- [11:13]
Host 2
Yeah, for sure. I'll definitely talk about Ancelotti in just a second. But before that, the man of the match in the first and second legs was Declan Rice. Let's hear from Mikel Arteta and here's what he had to say about him after the game.
- [11:25]
Host 1
Obviously, he's been decisive in the tie today in a different way. I think it was immense. His presence, the power that I showed.
- [11:32]
Guest 1
How composed he was with or without the ball.
- [11:34]
Host 1
I think he leave the team in many moments and turn the game in our favor. And I think that's what you need.
- [11:41]
Guest 1
Players at this level to step up and have big contribution.
- [11:44]
Host 1
And he certainly is on that.
- [11:46]
Host 2
Yeah, I mean, Declan Rice has been fascinating, these two legs, hasn't he? Charlie coming up clutch with two brilliant free kicks and then doing a lot of the hard work in this, driving the team forward. And also, I guess what's really interesting season on season is that he seems to add a few extra notches to his game goals. Now, again, I think this has equaled, I think he scored seven goals this season, which has equaled his best season ever. There's still a fair bit of the season to go. I mean, how important was he over those two legs?
- [12:11]
Host 1
Yeah, I think it's particularly significant he did this in a European knockout tie because last year I think the one knock you could have against Rice in what was a brilliant season, you know, both numbers of goals and assists were really good last season as well, and general performances. But if you look at the two, the two legs against both Porto and against Bayern, you could, you could say if you're being ultra critical of 105 million pound player, did he do enough in those games? Because you know, that is ultimately what you sign. You know, you spend that kind of money on a player to deliver in the absolute biggest matches, not just, you know, to get goals and assists in other games. And the fact that he's done it in these two matches like that was on, it's just the perfect way for him to answer that reservation. I mean, he, you know, he dominated the tie overall alongside Partey, who I think over the two matches as well would come a close second as the kind of man of the tie. Maybe Louis Kelly as well would be up there with Partey. But yeah, I mean, Rice, as you say, did it, did Two very different roles. He's probably going to have to do another different role in the first leg against PSG because Partey suspended, but this was massive for him. And to do it against Bellingham as well, I mean, that was a real statement to say, like, I'm the main man here. Yeah, he did exactly what you want from your record signing, you know, Sensational.
- [13:26]
Host 2
Yeah. Arts Charlie makes a really interesting point. You know, the price tag on Declan Rice and people have always asked that question, is he world class? Is he able to do it on the big stage? I mean, look, this is the most successful team in the Champions League, and at a point in which Arsenal needed someone to drive that team forward, he seemed to step up and I guess open up a global conversation about his skill set in the world game as opposed to the League game.
- [13:52]
Host 3
Yeah, I would say it's been more than just the two Champions League games. It's also been the little, I guess, primary game against Brentford on the weekend too, which might go slightly under the radar, but I think in each three of those games, he's shown three different sides to his play. So obviously the set pieces in the first leg, but then against Brentford, he. He's the game breaker. He's the one that carries Arsenal pretty much all the way up the pitch from his own box and then lays it off to Partey to finish and make it 1 nil. And then, as you guys mentioned, I think he was everywhere at the Bernabeu, tackle after tackle after tackle. And there was that one recovery run he made to make sure he got a block on Bellingham's shot, which, if he didn't track that, could have been a really dangerous situation for Arsenal. So I think he's shown how multifaceted he is as a midfielder and how irrelevant the talk of whether he's a 6 or an 8 is. Which is probably a big reason why he ended up choosing Arsenal anyway, because Mikel Arteta could see the amount of different facets to his game, just in.
- [15:05]
Host 1
A macro sense as well. IO you think of the sort of big players and leaders and characters that Arsenal have lost various chunks this season. He has really stepped up in the period where they've been without Saka, they've been without Odegaard, they've been without Havertz. Now that Gabriel is another kind of leader of that team. He's, you know, if you think of that period, kind of the turn of the year when it felt like they were dropping like flies and it was all sort of going wrong, he stepped up, you know, he's really. He's just kept on delivering consistently good performances and been available crucially as well. I mean, it sounds flippant, but it's really important, you know, when you give as much as he does in every game, to be able to do that and still just sort of recharge, go again. And he sort of carried the team at points, you think, as well. The goal at Old Trafford, he's. He's become a real focal point for the team.
- [15:52]
Host 2
Yeah. I have to ask you, Guillermo, I know we spoke about this in a previous podcast, but what does he say about the future of Carlo Ancelotti, Real Madrid, Arsenal in the Copa del Rey? La Liga is not out of the possibility for any other team to come to the quarter final of a Champions League and still be in these cups. People are going, this is a wonderful season, but this is also Real Madrid. Are there any more whispers now about his future?
- [16:17]
Guest 1
Of course, of course. There are always whispers at the Bernabeu and at Valdebevas, but now more than ever. Firstly, because Ancelotti knew before this tie, especially after the first leg, that their future, the future of the coaching staff was up in the air. Now, I just got a message from someone close to the coaching staff while we were recording and they are apparently calm for now. There is a Copa del Rey final in about eight days, so the club doesn't think on changing something like real really, really quick. Yesterday the message from the board was more or less like, okay, let's take some days of rest and don't think about this too much. You cannot always win. This was like the general message, the narrative. Of course they will have to rethink about the whole project because Ancelotti has contract until 2026, so he still has one more year of contract. But the feeling here, around the club and within the club is that there is something that is finished. There is a project that could be finished. The point is when it will be finished, because it's a difficult, really difficult timing. We are talking about Copa del Rey final in just one week. But there is also in less than two months, the club World Cup. And the club will have to decide if they bet on Ancelotti for this tournament or they bet on Xabi Alonso or an interim coach for this amazing talents.
- [17:59]
Host 2
Yeah, right. Let's talk about Bukaya Saka and I want your honest opinion. When he attempted the Paneka, what was going through your mind? Because you know, there's another, another narrative here of this Arsenal team that you know when the going Gets tough and they need a result sometimes, mentally, they. They struggle to get it over the line. Did you begin to, I guess, fear that by missing that, that opened the door for Real Madrid as well to come back into this?
- [18:30]
Host 3
Not 100%. So my initial reaction was just, oh, no. Rather than. Than anything else. And then once the var, I guess, controversy around Real Madrid's shout kind of happened, I, I didn't really think about the sack penalty, to be honest. I, I felt very comfortable in the way that Arsenal defended as a, as a unit, as 11 players, because any cross that came into the box, Saliba and Kivior did everything to get something onto it. I think there are a few times where Saliba got a toe, toe on some crosses and then Kivior took a shot to the stomach as well. So I was quite comfortable with the way that Arsenal were defending, that they could keep a clean sheet. Obviously they didn't because they actually gifted a goal away themselves. But for the most part, I wasn't too unsettled after the penalty miss. It was more just, I guess, disappointment that he didn't convert. But then he ended up getting his chip in the end anyway, so it all, it all kind of came to pass as he expected.
- [19:41]
Host 2
All right, Charlie, we'll talk about PSG next. But before, before we do that, let's talk about Jakub Kiwior. Much has been made of the fact that Gabriel, Arsenal star defender this season, is going to be injured for some big, big ties. And I looked at the first leg against Real Madrid. I guess the first four or Kuyo looked a little shaky, but you'd understand that under the circumstances, but feels like this is a young man who has grown into his position. But also, actually, I remember certain points last season where Kiwi had to fill in at certain points. You know, as a left back, he's been seen to be able to step up, but just not find that consistency as a first team player at Arsenal.
- [20:17]
Host 1
Yeah, I mean, again, just drawing a comparison with last year's quarterfinals, it was, it was against Bayern that at that point it felt like that kind of ended his Arsenal career because he'd actually been the left back and been doing pretty well for an extended period. And then he came up against Sane and Gnabry and the pace of the Bayern attackers just. He looked really out of his depth, to be honest. And I think that fed into why a lot of fans were feeling really nervous about having him against Real Madrid. And, you know, it's only nine days ago, ahead of that first Game a lot of fans were still doing the gymnastics of could you play Ben White there, could you move timber there Maybe could Arteta play, could he drop it? You know, it was all happening, you know, such was the desperation for Kivior not to play. I'm obviously slightly exaggerating but you know, there was a lot of nervousness about him. And as you say, start of the game, he made a mistake in the first leg and it felt a little bit like, oh, is this going to be Bayern all over again? And bear in mind as well, you know, he's probably the fourth choice left sided centre back after Gabriel Calafuri and Tommy Asu, you would have said at the start of the season. So for any team to be playing their fourth choice centre back, you know, and that's leaving aside the right sided ones and to do this well on top of like, you know, Marino playing as a striker, having ever played there, it's kind of amazing. But yeah, he's, he's sort of completely stepped up in a way that someone like Philip Senderos did the last time Arsenal, you know, got so far in the chat or got, you know, beat Real Madrid, you know, that mad 2006 run. Like sometimes you need that in, in a run. Things don't, don't go your way. I mean, remember Chelsea won against Bayern in 2012. They're missing pretty much all their defenders. Had David Luiz on one leg, players have to step up. And Kivior, Kivior's been that guy like he's, he's been, he was outstanding in, in both of these games.
- [22:01]
Host 2
Yeah. Galero, before you go, an opportunity for you to get one back on Arsenal fans. Well, hypothetically anyway. Talk to us about the rumors about Real Madrid being interested in William Saliba. This week on the Athletic we reported on Madrid's interest in the defender. But is it a move that you can see happening this summer or maybe something to keep an eye on further on down the line?
- [22:21]
Guest 1
As we reported last week, Mario Corteganas, the Athletic, Real Madrid are following William Saliba. It's not something new. They have been following him before he joined Arsenal a few years ago. He's obviously one of the top, top central backs maybe or probably the best nowadays. So obviously Real Madrid taking a look, they are scouting the central back market so, so we will have to see. We are not sure that in this summer transfer window, in the next summer transfer window they will go for sure for a central bank because it's not clear that they have this signing under their plans. But we shouldn't discuss this idea for the next transfer windows, maybe for 2026, when William Saliba will have only one year left of contract and it will be easier for, you know, for real, to negotiate with Arsenal and to probably get him for a lower price. A lower cost is something that they usually do. They have done this in the past with other signings, for example, with Thibaut Courtois, and it was much easier and cheaper and I think it proved successful.
- [23:37]
Host 2
Charlie.
- [23:38]
Host 1
No, I just wondered if it was kind of the perfect outcome for Arsenal with Saliba did, you know, make this error, get Real Madrid off the scent. Like, look, he's not that good. You know, he's always gaffing like that. It kind of. Agent Raya, give him a bit of a hospital pass, let him make the mistake, and then Real Madrid, they can turn their attentions elsewhere. It's very clever from Riot.
- [23:58]
Host 2
Very smart, Very smart. I see what they're doing there. All right, Galadro, thank you so much for your time. Appreciate you, mate.
- [24:05]
Host 3
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akinwaleere.
- [24:10]
Host 2
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. You might say all kinds of stuff when things go wrong, but these are the words you really need to remember. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. They've got options to fit your unique insurance needs, meaning you can talk to your agent to choose the coverage you need, have coverage options to protect the things you value most, file a claim right on the State Farm mobile app, and even reach a real person when you need to talk to someone. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Hey there, travelers. Kaley Cuoco here. Sorry to interrupt your music, great artist btdubs, but wouldn't you rather be there to hear it live? With Priceline, you can get out of your dreams and into your dream concert. They've got millions of travel deals to get you to that festival, gig, rave, sound bath or sonic experience you've been dreaming of. Download the Priceline app today and you can save up to 60% off hotels and up to 50% off flights. So don't just dream about that trip. Book it with Priceline. Go to your happy price. Priceline. McDonald's meets the Minecraft universe with one.
- [25:12]
Host 3
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Host 3
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Host 1
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- [25:21]
Host 2
I participate in McDonald's for a limited time, a Minecraft movie only in theaters. All right, Charlie, let's break down Arsenal's group to the final. PSG next up, clearly top class under Luis Enrique. They've been brilliant and actually a lot of people are tipping them to potentially win this competition. But we spoke about this recently, I guess a degree of vulnerability when it comes to defenses. I saw a couple of long balls played over by Aston Villa that caught them out interestingly. And, you know, it was a much closer call than I thought against Villa at Villa Park.
- [25:57]
Host 1
Yeah, I think the dial slightly shifted on PSG sort of throughout the game because when they went tunil up, there was a huge amount of excitement online about PSG and they're the favorites and oh my God, they're this incredible counter attacking team. Then they suddenly did look very vulnerable. You know, they conceded three. They could easily have conceded more. You know, it was, it was a bit of a collapse and that's not to say that's definitely going to happen again, but it does. Yeah, I think it does change a little bit how much Arsenal or certainly their supporters or general observers would, would be feeling about psg. I mean, I think, I think it's a really interesting matchup in that you've got this incredible counter attacking team against a team whose superpower really is stopping counter attacks. You know, there's pretty much no one better at doing that than Arsenal, so kind of what wins out out of those two? But it's, you know, of course, it's, it's a really challenging game. That said, I do think to be in the semis and therefore not to be any of Real Madrid, Liverpool, Man City, obviously not this iteration of Man City, but, you know, there isn't a kind of aura team left in, I don't think, you know, obviously Barca into psg, these are all great teams, but none of them have won the Champions League, especially recently. You know, even Barca, it's a decade ago, which feels kind of mad. You know, there's not a team that I think Arsenal will be really afraid of, you know, which might not have always been the case when they've got the last four previously.
- [27:18]
Host 2
Yeah. Do you feel that there's not a team left that Arsenal should be afraid of left in this tournament? Would you think this current iteration of an Arsenal team should feel confident whoever they come up against in the competition?
- [27:31]
Host 3
Yeah, I think the aura comment that Charlie made is probably a big one because they faced the last aura team in the Champions League and knocked them out and deservedly so. So I think that should empower them as a club, give them the belief and the. I Guess mindset that they can I guess go against anyone in Europe. But I think when you look at them and PSG and that matchup, I think a lot of people have spoken about how this is going to be a different PSG team, but this is also going to be a different Arsenal team. I don't think people actually remember at the time Martin Odegaard was out injured so Arsenal were playing a 442 with I think it was Declan Rice and Thomas Partey as central midfielders and Leandro Trossard and Kai Havertz as two strikers. That's not going to be the way.
- [28:20]
Host 1
They set up it was before Mikel Marino became the best player in the world I think. So that will make a difference.
- [28:26]
Host 3
Yeah. So I think people should keep in mind that it's going to be a different Arsenal as well. And it's an Arsenal that have proven how disciplined they can be against attacking forces. So I think for Mikel Arteta and his players they'll probably keep the focus on themselves. If the game does kind of go into a frenzy where PSG's attacking talent are on top, I think they'll probably back themselves to match them defensively as well.
- [28:56]
Host 2
Yeah. What about if. I'm not trying to dream too far ahead now, Charlie. But if Arsenal do make it past psg, awaiting them is either Barcelona, who they lost to in the champions league final 2006. And I remember that very vividly and also into who've they played in the tournament in the league phase so far into one that game, one nil. It was a tight one but into, you know, for a lot of people they're talking about Inter being this incredibly balanced team and that's quite interesting because Arsenal actually unbalanced as a team. So you know, where would you see that go? Who would Arsenal want to play? Barca. Free flowing Inter. Super structural.
- [29:35]
Host 1
Yeah. I think if you look at the teams Arsenal tend to struggle against, it's more an Inter than a Barcelona. Like it's that kind of obviously Inter at a different level but it's kind of mid blocks. I mean Arsenal have lost so few games across all competitions despite it being a really difficult season in lots of ways. But it's you know, Newcastle causing loads of problems. Bournemouth, their record against big six inverted commas teams is incredible. You know they haven't lost in the League for almost exactly two years against one of those teams. So I think a sort of free flowing attacking team might scare them or be less challenging to the way they play than a team like Inter. Who I would say are better than a Barcelona at kind of sitting in. I think that's when Arsenal have struggled and maybe part of the reason, you know, the champ. It's weird because you look at the period since Havertz got injured, they've really scored very few goals in the league and yet in that time they've gone and put seven past psv, they've put five past Real Madrid in two games. And that has to be a little bit to do with how those, the teams on the continent approach them compared to teams at home. Same with someone like Sporting who Arsenal put five past away in the group phase. So yeah, I don't know. I think it might be that they don't prefer to play Barcelona, but certainly there'd be positives given that in theory Barcelona are the stronger team out of those two.
- [30:51]
Host 2
Okay, who's. Who, who's who's on your bill to win the Hulk tournament?
- [30:56]
Host 3
Oh my God.
- [30:58]
Host 2
Dare I, dare I ask you that question? Are you saying, are you saying be honest, be truthful.
- [31:07]
Host 3
Am I allowed to plead the fifth?
- [31:10]
Host 2
Come on, stop ducking and diving. I, I need to know. I'm so fascinated. I, I.
- [31:15]
Host 3
To be fair, I actually agree with Charlie that Inter would be a tougher final if Arsenal got there. I'll be bold and say Arsenal. That's me being bold.
- [31:31]
Host 1
A little whisperer. Quiet.
- [31:33]
Host 2
I do it, I do it, I do it. What you say, Charlie? Who's your winner out of those four?
- [31:39]
Host 1
Yeah. I do think one thing that is exciting about this last four is there isn't an obvious favourite as there often is. If you've got real Madrid knocking around in the last four, you think they'll classically they'll find a way. I think Barcelona would be my favorites but I do think there's very little in it. Was talking earlier with Duncan Alexander on totally and the optusupercomputer has it very, very close with all four teams. You know, there isn't a big favorite, there's not a big underdog. Interestingly they have Barca actually is the fourth as the kind of least likely to win it and Arsenal is the most. So suddenly all those people who knock the supercomputer will be say yeah, supercomputer always knows to be fair.
- [32:19]
Host 3
One thing I'm actually looking forward to from PSG and Barcelona is their wingers. I just love their wingers and I think they will bring entertainment to the semi finals no matter what. Whether Arsenal can stop due Dembele, Croix, Scalia, Hakimi, Mendes, That'll be interesting without Partey as well. Yeah, exactly.
- [32:46]
Host 1
And a question for you guys. Would you rather have lost two zero last night but Partey's available for that first leg or you'd rather. It was as it was.
- [32:53]
Host 2
I think as it was what it needs to be. I mean that, that there's, there's, there's a potential that if Marield, I don't know, like I've seen him, Bob, that be great. That would be interesting. Right, but that's another conversation for another time actually.
- [33:07]
Host 3
Sorry.
- [33:08]
Host 2
No, go for it.
- [33:08]
Host 3
That made me think of something else. In that game in October, Califiore actually played at left back. So this was before Lewis Skelly was actually in the team and he PSG couldn't deal with him because he was actually moving into midfield. There was one point where he was almost in a number 10 position playing in Bukayo Saka. So if he's able to get fit for that, well, whether it's the first leg or the second leg for the tie in general, I think that could add another interesting dimension to how things play out. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.
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Host 1
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Guest 1
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Host 2
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Host 3
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Host 2
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- [35:18]
Host 3
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IOAO A.
- [35:25]
Host 2
All right, let's move on to. To Mikel Arteta and also get a sense of how this pans out with Project Arteta so far.
- [35:32]
Guest 1
It was impossible to be in any. In any round because the club was.
- [35:36]
Host 1
In the Champions League for seven years. So that shows you the turnaround and a lot of great decision that the.
- [35:42]
Guest 1
Club is made and the contribution for.
- [35:44]
Host 1
A lot of people to be where we are and is a team that you can feel today how hungry, how determined, and the ambition that is go. So we're going for more for sure.
- [35:53]
Host 2
Yeah. That was Mikel Arteta there speaking about the turnaround at the club since his arrival in 2019. Charlie. Now, despite, you know, the league being out of reach, and you mentioned it at the top, they are in the semifinals of the Champions League. This is year six of the Arteta project. Do you think from the club's perspective, the project is on schedule, ahead of schedule or behind schedule? I don't know how you gauge it, because I would always ask myself, is winning the Premier League important? Or now they're in the Champions League and there's a chance they win the Champions League. That would trump a lot of staff, I think.
- [36:27]
Host 1
You really can't overstate what a position they were in when he arrived in 2019. I mean, it was really, really wretched. Like, it was terrible. And I think, like, it's easy to forget how far they've come in what is a relatively short space of time. These things do take a while. And they've become by, what, 2022. That 2022, 23 season, they nearly won the league. They were going for the Premier League, and I think to be in the position where they're going for titles. They're in the Champions League semi finals and, you know, hammering Real Madrid, the champions of Europe, when at that point they were. I mean, they were a joke, really, weren't they? I mean, they had so many sort of comedic players. They would play anyone good away from home. They'd look out of their depth. If you'd offered pretty much any, certainly supporter and probably people within the club that, you know, fast forward five and a half years and you'll be doing this at the Bernabeu, whether they go on to win or not. People can go on about trophies and whatever, and that's fine. Like, if trophies are your absolute bottom line, go for it, enjoy it. But would you rather add United's last couple of years? Not a chance. I would suggest there is barely an Arsenal fan who would, you know, beating Real Madrid, you know, beating Man City 5 1, beating Chelsea 5 nil, doing the double over spurs throughout the last three seasons. All of these things, like, they mean a lot to fans, you know, and I don't think a League cup for a team that's going nowhere, you know, and Arsenal have been there. You know, Arsenal were that team towards the end of the Wenger period. They were winning FA Cups, they were doing nothing in the League, nothing in the Champions League, if even in the Champions League, you know, they've. Arsenal have kind of lived through that. And I think whether they win the Champions League or not, from here on in, they're still in an incredible position by anyone's standards, but certainly relative to where they were. And so much of that is down to Arteta. It's his first job in management. Like, it's. That's still slightly beggars belief. Like, when he came in, it was sort of like they're based. The club is basically banking on him being like as good as Guardiola. That was kind of what they were saying. And he sort of has been like, how insane is that?
- [38:40]
Host 2
No, I think you're spot on. There was, post match, there was an interview with a Spanish journalist and he asked him, you know, if he got any advice from anyone for the semi finals and he said he gave Guardiola a call and, you know, it's because of Pep. He's where he is. Ah, this is his first job in management, having to take the club from where it was to where it's at right now. You've lost the sporting director. I mean, there's so many permutations here. But also, I. I guess, and I. I sometimes try to put this in perspective with certain Arsenal fans, is that with a relatively depleted team, you still kept this team in second place and in contention for Champions League again next season. I mean, it can't be underestimated just how hard he's worked for this, but also how decent a job he's done for his first managerial appointment.
- [39:22]
Host 3
Yeah, I think if we just look at this season in particular, everyone's now forgotten about the injuries that Arsenal have dealt with throughout the season. Odegaard, Califiore, Timber. Saka, Havertz. I think there are few. There's probably loads of other ones that I myself am forgetting right now, but Arteta has had to kind of mold this team a few different ways throughout the season. 4, 4, 2. As you mentioned in the autumn, then they were Able to, maybe for a few weeks, go back to normal when Erdogard came back and when Gabriel J. Zeus had his kind of purple patch around Christmas, but even he suffered an ACL injury. And now we're seeing this iteration where Mikel Mourinho is up front, a kind of mishmash of a team take on Real Madrid and beat them. When you kind of consider all of that and what they've had to deal with this season, it is quite amazing that they are where they are. I think that also probably has given them coping skills for the future years, which hopefully, from an Arsenal perspective, puts them in good stead. I think when you look at the whole journey from 2019 to now, you see a team that's a lot more disciplined. Charlie mentioned where they would go away from home, and you'd. You wouldn't be surprised if they lost 5 nil, which they did away to Manchester City. They went. I think they started the season with three losses in 21, 22. But then you saw the nucleus was there with Saka Smith, Row Gabriel and Gabriel Martinelli as well. So it's so nice to see most of those players still here contributing majorly to what's going on. And also, I think, from a kind of mental standpoint, I asked Arteta a couple weeks ago about Jose Mourinho's phrase, football heritage, just from a perspective of European football, because Arsenal haven't really had any and now they're at a stage where they can finally start to build some. And he said that he'd rather it be kind of referred to in relation to winning the big trophies. But every team has to start somewhere. And Arsenal, with Arteta, started struggling in the Europa League and now they're winning at the Bernabeu. So it's quite a nice kind of checkpoint in the journey.
- [41:50]
Host 2
Art makes an interesting point as well, Charlie, about those players still being at Arsenal. But this is the bigger question. The football world and its riches do come calling for certain players, especially ones that are performing really well at certain teams. And we joked about Saliba earlier going to Real Madrid, but, I mean, how important is it for Arsenal to keep their key personnel that have grown with them through this time, build that mental resilience over time, because taking out such key components can also derail a team as well.
- [42:19]
Host 1
Yeah, I think that is a really interesting dilemma that they face because they've not been particularly good as a selling club, you know, for a long period, which is kind of true of most of the big clubs in a way, like it's not easy unless you want to sell your absolute best players. It's kind of hard, you know, selling fringe players. Teams don't really want them a lot of the time nowadays when they can go and, you know, buy players from other leagues who are just as good, if not better, because of that sort of English team premium. So they do have a bit of a decision to make. And I know a lot of people think maybe they do need to kind of make one big sale, kind of freshen things up a little bit and not risk all of them running their contracts down as well. I mean, the problem that they face is that, as we've seen with someone like Trent or Kylian Mbappe, Real Madrid are very, very good at saying to a player, just wait, just chill out, and then you can go on a free. Ultimately, the players hold the power. You know, they can't force Saliba to sign a new contract. Obviously there are different levels here as well. Saliba, Saka, they are, Gabriel, they just have to be kept on no matter what. Whereas there are others. Someone like Martinelli I think is an interesting one. And, you know, I'm sure it's beneficial to Arsenal, him scoring that goal. Such a high profile goal in such a high profile game, that kind of puts him back a little bit in the shop window, if you want to put it like that, for a player who maybe was thought to have been on a decline, but, you know, someone like Trossard, he's getting to an age where, you know, he's probably past his peak years. So do they try and cash in? Because there are, in spite of how well they're doing right now, there are a few big signings they want to make in the summer.
- [43:55]
Host 2
Yeah, that's true. And I guess in the rules of football business, something has to give, right? Some people might have to go to reinvest in the club for better players if you want to push the team to another level. I mean, in your mind, who feels like a player? That's sort of on that kind of conversation, not necessarily that any decisions have been made, but could be in that conversation to say, you know, it's summer, thank you for your time, we need to reinvest and rebuild.
- [44:21]
Host 3
I think Trossard's probably the main one in my eyes. When you look at him and Martinelli, the age factor is just the big plus on Martinelli's side. And I think Trossard's done extremely well in his two and a half years at Arsenal. But looking at assets, basically, which is a really kind of using that word for a human being. I think he's probably the most valuable one. That wouldn't hurt as much, if that makes sense. If he went outside of that, you're looking at probably an Alexander Zinchenko who's not starting games. And then they also have players who will be coming back from loan that they still need to sell permanently. So Albert Sambi La Conga Conga is still on Arsenal.
- [45:11]
Host 2
Oh, my goodness. Is Tavares still at Marseille or is it. Oh, my.
- [45:16]
Host 1
No, he's Alassia.
- [45:16]
Host 2
He's Alassia tearing it up.
- [45:18]
Host 3
Come on.
- [45:18]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [45:19]
Host 3
These are all players that are still on Arsenal's books and could, like, even though people have probably forgotten that they can generate funds. So there's loads of players there.
- [45:31]
Host 1
The interesting thing with Arteta, or two things with Arteta, with this, though, one is, it's interesting. You're asking, like, who might it be? But he sprung some surprises before, hasn't he? Because someone like Kieran Tierney went from being like, God, he's the man. New contract. Future Arsenal captain. You're gone. You are not playing a minute. Aaron Ramsdale, new contract. What a guy.
- [45:49]
Host 2
Oh, not the Ramsdale.
- [45:51]
Host 1
Next week. Yeah, sorry, mate. You're number two and you're never playing again. And I think the one problem with Arteta is it's so blindingly obvious whether you're in or out. So that as a prospective buyer, you can kind of be like. But you've made it very obvious you don't rate this player at all. I mean, Zinchenko, if you're a buying club, you're kind of like, yeah, you give him no minutes, like, clearly you want him out of the club. We're not really going to bid very much for him. And that's slightly what, you know, same as someone like Kieran Tierney. He's so clearly surplus to requirements. Arteta does not hide that when you're out, you are out just on that.
- [46:27]
Host 3
That's been a really kind of interesting, I guess, area of development for him over the past few years, because I remember in the. The first title race, 22, 23, he did not rotate until it was too late. So April, this time of year, Arsenal dropped points against Liverpool West Ham and that's it. At the time, Thomas Pate was playing terribly and Arsenal just brought in Jorginho. But Arteta played parte in every game and he made pretty bad mistakes in two of them against West Ham.
- [47:04]
Host 1
And Rice was the guy who intercepted it.
- [47:07]
Host 3
Yes, exactly. But then once the League had already kind of been lost. That was when then Arteta decided to play Jorginho last year. I think he got a little bit better at that. But still you saw moments where maybe Emile Smith Rowe would start a game against Luton. He won man of the match and then he wasn't seen again. He played maybe a couple of games off the bench and to be fair, Arsenal actually did well to get 27 million up front and another 7 million add ons from Fulham. But he wasn't really put in the shop window as Charlie said. So I think that's another area probably where you're looking and thinking where are the developments there for Zinchenko? I think probably you're seeing that with him getting minutes in midfield. He started the Brentford game as a midfielder. That was his first start there in the Premier League in that position for Arsenal. But also he's played there a bit more in recent weeks. So maybe you're seeing okay, he's not just a left back back other clubs.
- [48:10]
Host 1
We really rate him.
- [48:13]
Host 3
And I think yeah, Ipswich this weekend will probably be interested in terms of live lineup as well. But yeah, I think going forward Arsenal do need to kind of pick up on last summer because they were able to sell a bit better than they usually did. Now they need to kind of continue to do that.
- [48:30]
Host 2
You know lads, I think I've sussed it. I think the master plan is basically play these players in the Champions League, give them a few minutes, Arsenal go on to win the Champions League and then you've got Champions League winners on your books. Easy sale. All right gents, let's leave it there. Art Guillermo for earlier and also Charlie as well. Thank you for your time. Thank you guys for listening. Matt Davis Adams will be back with the preview show tomorrow.
- [48:56]
Host 1
The Athletic FC podcast network.