Ayo Akamolere (2:37)

All right, in with us today, we've got Jack Pitt, Brook. We've also got Mark Critchley as well. Gents, let's talk about managers. So far this season, Jack, four managers have been sacked and they are Nuno Espirito Santo and Ange Postecoglou at Nottingham Forest, Graham Potter at West Ham and also Big Top Pereira at Wolves in general. And this is going to be the basis of this conversation. At what point does a manager's position become untenable?

Jack Pitt-Brooke (3:04)

Well, there's a few things. I think one is if the fans are clearly not having the manager, I think we saw that with Forest fans and Angepostecoglou, not with Forest fans and Nuno, but with Forest fans and Angel Postecoglou. That was a clear example that the Forest fans were not having the manager. And at that point, I think when it gets that toxic, the manager has to go. Sometimes it can be the relationship between the manager and the owner. So when Nuno made some comments about his relationship with Marinakis at the start of the season, the Nottingham Forest owner, and I think after, he wasn't even especially critical. But I think when you start raising that kind of topic in public, like it's pretty obvious what's going to happen down the line. So that's a factor as well. And I guess the other one is if it just becomes clear that the manager can no longer get anything out of the players, you know, whether it's Vito Pereira, Wolves, they were clearly just going nowhere. Graham Potter at West Ham, again, like, they were clearly, they were not getting wins, they were not scoring goals. I think he. His. His time is up. So there's kind of a few different things like their factors, and if you take any of those boxes, then I think it's fairly likely the manager is going to go.

Ayo Akamolere (4:15)

Critch, in your time of reporting, do you ever get a sniffer? It. Do you think, you know what? I'll give this guy another five games, it's over.

Mark Critchley (4:23)

Ideally, you get more than a sniff of it. You get an exclusive story. You know what? I'm. That he's gone. But unfortunately I've never managed to do that so far in my career. I feel like in my experience with covering United, you know, every United sacking during my time covering the club has been trailed for weeks and months, sometimes in advance. And so you can feel it come in. That's a club with a lot of media exposure and a lot of media coverage. And so it's always choreographed and sort of signal posted or signposted, even in that way. But also there have been times when, you know, the walls have been closing in. It feels like that, at least, and then suddenly they don't. One of the more like bizarre occasions covering United in terms of managerial positions over the last few years was Erik Ten Hag going into that FA cup final at the end of his second full season in charge, where, you know, there was a. I wouldn't say an expectation as such, but there was a lot of intense speculation about his job, his future, to the point where, you know, there were reports that he would have been sacked, whatever happened during that game. And nobody, absolutely nobody expected United to go on and win it because it was against a City team who'd, you know, coming off the back of a treble the season before he just won the league, who looked like they were going to wipe the floor with them, and then it didn't happen. And suddenly that reframes not only what happens to the manager over the coming summer, but also almost how you look back on that season. I remember running polls after that about whether 10 Hag should get the sack, and I think about 80%, I want to say, of Athletic subscribers say, no, he shouldn't, even though it was a complete flip reverse of the sentiment about three or four weeks before that, when they lost really heavily at Crystal Palace. So it can change in a moment like that. But generally speaking, I would say you do get a sense. And when you see a manager lose games, I think the key thing, you know, you ask what makes a manager's position untenable? It's once expectations don't really align with performances, or vice versa. Performances don't really align with expectations once there's a gap there between what you thought and what you expected a manager to achieve and what is actually happening out on the pitch, usually, whatever the scenario is, whether, no matter how many games they've won or lost, because expectations can be insanely high. But once that gap is there, then a manager starts to come under pressure and that's usually the telltale sign.

Ayo Akamolere (6:46)

Have you got a sniffer it, Jack, in your time reporting someone's going to get the sack?

Jack Pitt-Brooke (6:51)

Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, certainly, you know, covering Tottenham, who, again, like, probably fairly comparable to Manchester United, their ability to churn through managers. Yeah, there's. There's definitely times where you. You feel that it's coming. You know, that there's a kind of ominous, an ominous mood and sometimes it's you know, it's not usually as simple as what I mean some people on the outside might think that the club will just tell journalists, oh he's, you know, he's got two games, save his job or we're going to sack him, lose next week or it's not really, doesn't really, it's not quite that simple. But often you can just see it in the players or you can hear it from, from contact. You get a sense of that the players are not really performing for the manager anymore and obviously that, you know, the board, the decision makers will always be very well aware of that. You know there's a certain, I think the phrase downing tools always seems a bit harsh. It's not, I don't think it's quite as simple as that. But you can definitely tell when the players are not, don't really believe in what they are being told to do anymore and that you know that becomes very, very apparent on the pitch. So and you kind of know when you see those sorts of performances that like this is just not, this is not happening anymore. This is not going anywhere. And when that is the case then usually, not always, but usually the manager pays, pays with their job pretty soon after.

Ayo Akamolere (8:09)

I mean I always think about the issues that managers face, you know, taking over mid season. I think about David Moyes going back to Everton for inst. And you wonder, you know, what baggage are they carrying on their shoulders. But there's a real sense of expectation though when you land in mid season. Jack, is that the case from where you're looking at? Because it can't go either way at that point.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (8:29)

Still it's really tough. It's really tough taking over mid season for a few reasons. One is that you don't get to sign your players, you know, because you're at the mercy of when the next transfer window is going to be. The main one really is that you don't get pre season so you don't get that kind of four to I guess four, five, six week block to drill your ideas into the players. And also if you're taking over a club which is playing in Europe then all of a sudden you're straight into two games a week and if you're playing two games a week you don't really get to train at all because it's just kind of preparation, match warm down and then preparation for the next game and like that's if you look at like Postecoglo going to Forest. I think Postecoglo Forest was a bizarre appointment for all sorts of different reasons. Firstly, because he was a complete like tactical 180 from Nuno. You go from the most sort of kind of conservative counter attacking coach in the Premier League to the most expansive. But he took over in. He took over like a month or two into the season when they didn't have a transfer window, they didn't have pre season and they're in the Europa League. So postecoglou was getting very, very limited actual training time while hoping to play a style of play which is completely, completely different from what they played on Nuno. So that appointment I think really underlined how hard it can be. And of course it's not always like that. You know, Jurgen Klopp took over from Brendan Rogers in 2015 and obviously didn't have instant success, but he started he on the right path. Or Antonio Conte took over from Nuno at Tottenham in November 2021. And they were sudden, like pretty quickly. They were really, really good team and they wound up finishing fourth that season. So it can be done, but it's really hard.

Ayo Akamolere (10:06)

Yeah, Chris, can we just talk about wolves very quickly? 0 wins, 2 draws and 13 defeats in 15 games. Tim Spears actually noted in, in a piece on the Athletic right now that the most expensive ticket at Molyneux costs 939 pounds. I assume that's a season ticket. That basically means 939 pounds per point at home. Imagine taking over a club in that kind of situation as a manager.

Mark Critchley (10:33)

That's great maths by Tim Spears there. I don't know how long it took him to work that out.

Mark Critchley (10:38)

Yeah, it's an immensely difficult situation for a manager to walk into. So it makes it all the more curious that one who was second in the championship wasn't. He was middle should do it. You know, I think in Rob Edwards defense football, to use the cliche, it's a cutthroat industry, you cannot bank on the sympathy of owners of directors. It's usually not there if results aren't there either for managers. So why should managers show the same sort of patience and not take opportunities when they come for him? I can see that argument, but at the same time I think remove all that. Remove Edwards his own connection to the club as well. Wolves is just a very difficult situation to walk into and to turn around at the moment. I know they were close to the bottom of the league last Christmas before Vito Pereira came in. And the turnaround there was magnificent and superb and one of the stories of the season really. But to ask, I was going to say the same group of players to do that again, but it's not the same group of players, is it? Because Matthias Kunha's gone. No Reina Nouri either. Their best players have been sold. It's a club that's been not circling the drain, if you like, but has been down at the wrong end of the table for a few seasons now. He's been having to battle against who've lost some of the most talented individuals that they had in the squad. And you've got to turn that around when you're in a pretty sweet position at Middlesbrough. So I don't envy him in his task. Although to be fair to Rob Edwards, it's one that he's taken at some cost, you'd say probably some damage to his reputation as well. Certainly it was a controversial decision. It's the decision that he's made and now he's going to work the best way out of it. I struggle to see how they stay up at this point, to be honest, and I think it's probably wise to start planning for a year in the Championship.

Ayo Akamolere (12:17)

Well, let's talk about the now, because that's a good example. And also, I guess what's happening at Forest is another example as to how people are changing managers. But just in general, it feels like clubs are resisting changing managers this season. Critch, what would you say that is down to?

Mark Critchley (12:34)

So I'm going to make a really obvious point that probably everybody has already picked up about. He's been talking about for several weeks already. But it feels like to me, we are in possibly like the most volatile one of the more competitive Premier League seasons that we've had for a long time. A sort of high floor and a low ceiling, if you like. And you only need to look at the table to see the evidence of that at the moment. I mean, I think. So there's three points separating the top three, Arsenal, Manchester City and Aston Villa. Now, I think Arsenal, my opinion, they'll probably streak away from that and maybe City will challenge them or not. But still, that's very tight there. You look below that, though, and it's four points that separate the next nine clubs, down to 12. And you know, as somebody who's covering one of the clubs that's in that bracket at the moment, week to week, game to game, whether they win, whether they lose. It's very hard to interpret exactly where United are at right now, because they can be two points off the top four and everyone's looking upwards, but then they lose a game and people are like, well, we're not that far off 15th, which is where we finished last year. That's the case this season. But I also think, to be fair, that's been the case for maybe the last 18 months, right to the start of the last season. I think, you know, I'll try and test you both now. Who finished 12th last season? Who finished 12th last season?

Ayo Akamolere (13:53)

It was at Palace. Was it?

Mark Critchley (13:55)

It was palace, 100%. You got it right. Of course it was palace. They always finished 12. They always finished 12th, don't they?

Ayo Akamolere (14:01)

I thought that was a safe bet.

Mark Critchley (14:02)

Genuinely, it was a safe bet. They've always finished. They've got the song 12 again. Who gives a. Yeah, we won the FA Cup. But they finished 12. They finished 12 again with 53 points, which was the most points that they've ever had in a Premier League season. That's a Palisade that I think we all rate, right, because of the FA cup performance more than anything. But we all think are a very good side. They finished 12th, Bournemouth finished ninth. They sold their center halves to Real Madrid and PSG. You know, me and Jack cover. United and Tottenham, 15th and 17th, respectively. They competed a European final last year. They beat decent teams from around Europe in order to get there. I think it has been certainly for the last 18 months, a more competitive league. And to come back to your question, I think when the gap isn't so big between where you can get to, if you're a manager who's struggling to get results, then there's a little bit more leniency that's shown towards you by owners and directors and the board, because you're not ever really that far off, or at least so far they have. Managers haven't really been that far off getting to where they need to be. It comes back to that gap between expectations and performances that I said before. If it's within reach, then managers are always going to have a little bit more rope than they're used to. And the other thing is finances as well, right? I think we've seen over the last few years maybe fewer sack ins than in the past. And it's hard not to separate that from just how important PSR and spending rules and financial regulations have become within that time as well. I think at United they've spent, since Ferguson's retirement, they've spent something like £55 million on managerial changes, which is probably an inflated figure because it's United and the size of contracts and the amount of dismissals that there have been. But It's a costly business. And so I think that's part of the equation as well.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (15:42)

My theory on this is that clubs are probably less scared of relegation than they used to be, I think, because they see that the championship is so weighted in favour of teams in receipt of parachute payments. So obviously, if you go down to the championship, like, yeah, you make a lot, a lot less money than you would do in the Premier League, but you're. You're really cushioned by parachute payments. So if your first two years, you get big chunks of money which mean that. And like, generally speaking, I know it's not true this season where Coventry, who are not in receipt of parachute payments, are running away with the championship. But generally speaking, the teams who get automatically promoted from the Championship are teams of parachute payments. So the last six championship seasons, 12 teams have been automatically promoted, and of those 12, 10 of them have been in their first or second season since relegation from the Premier League, and therefore in receipt of parachute payments. So in 24, 25, it was Leeds and Burnley, 23, 24, Leicester, 22, 23, Burnley and Sheffield United, 21, 22, Fulham and Bournemouth and so on. And I just wonder whether teams are less scared of going down because they think if we go down with a good squad and we keep our manager, then we've got a. We've got a better chance coming back up than if we just, like, do what teams used to do in that situation, which is sat the manager and find, like a firefighter, you know, whether that's, I don't know. Pulis Pargy, Mark Hughes, a manager, a manager of that, of that, of that approach in that generation. And so in the last, like last season, like Ipswich were clearly going down, but they, they stuck with Kieran McKenna and they still got him now, like in 23, 24, all three relegated teams start with their manager, right? Wilder Edwards at Luton and company at Burnley. And obviously company at Burnley went off to Bayern Munich where he's done really well. But so I think teams have kind of. They don't just sack in February or March. They're scared of going down anymore. And I think that kind of creates a bit more stability for those kind of bottom, those teams towards the bottom than they used to be.

Ayo Akamolere (17:47)

Okay, well, Jack, I'm going to give you some numbers right now, because this season, four managers so far we've mentioned last season, seven managers got sacked. In the 23, 24 season, it was three. And then the season before that, the year before that was a record high of 14. So the 22, 23 season 14 manager sackings. Why do you think that was and why do you think that season was such an outlier, Jack?

Jack Pitt-Brooke (18:13)

So I think it was probably because of the World cup which happened in November and December of that season. It basically, I can't remember exactly how long there was between. I think it was about seven weeks maybe between like the Premier League season pausing and then it resuming, which I think was on Boxing Day. And that meant that if you were a struggling club, like normally you might not sack your manager because you think, oh well, like there'll be no time to train, they'll have no time with the players. It's just match, match, match, match, match. We might as well stick with the bloke we've got. But in that season you could think, well, if we sack, if we sack him, then actually the new bloke will have a pre season effectively or he'll get to work with a lot of players during November and December and therefore it's easier for us to start again. So we saw, you saw a lot of sackings before the World Cup. So yeah, Scott Parker got sacked in August, Thomas Tuchel got sat by Chelsea in September, Bruno Larger got sat in Oct Wolves and Steven Gerrard got sacked in October and then Saints sacked Ralph Hassenhuttle just before the World Cup. And I think all of those teams were thinking, we get a new guy in now, he can have his own pre season and then maybe second half of the season will be good again.

Ayo Akamolere (19:27)

Really fascinated by that.

Mark Critchley (19:29)

I do actually, and I hadn't even considered it. And this just shows that Jack pays more attention to these sort of things. I think, I think it makes a lot of sense because as he mentioned before, the lack of time that you have on the training pitch with players is one of the big problems with making these sort of decisions in the middle of the season. I mean, it's relevant to United even now, I would say a year on from Ruben Amarim coming in because he famously was saying before he came in that he would prefer to stay at Sporting until the end of the season and then build and have that benefit of the time in the middle in the summer to work his methods on the training ground. And I think some of that was also him wanting to be fair to Sporting and to almost finish a job he'd done there. I think that was part of the equation as well. But you could see he eventually had to come in United, said it's now or never and I think it's still an open Question as to whether that has benefited them or not. Yes, it's allowed him to get some teething problems, to work through some teething problems. I would say, let's just put it like that, as in the lowest finish that they've had in Premier League history. But that is also something of a blot on his own copy book now, which means that he's judged not only on how they're performing this season, but also last. And so I think that has shown some of the. Some of the difficulties that come with coming into it in the middle of the season and why that particular year was, you know, almost unique in the sense that you had this period where managers could come in bed, their ideas in and have somewhat of a fresh start.

Ayo Akamolere (20:59)

I guess if we bring it back to this season. There's an interesting permutation I'm playing with is that. But does the strength of the promoted sides, Critch, actually, I don't know, shoot a rocket off the backsides of the established teams currently right now? Because if you look at Sunderland, who are currently 9th lead, 16th, Burnley, the only promoted side in the bottom three, you know, is there pressure on other teams just to battle down the hatches for a minute and let's just see how we do until what, January, February?

Mark Critchley (21:27)

I don't know. I feel like that works both ways because the past few seasons when you've seen the newly promoted clubs really struggle and effectively look like they're relegated from about this point onwards during a season, it's almost been like clubs haven't had to worry basically. Have they been able to look at that and say, well, we're pretty secure and we don't need to do anything. This year is going to be a really bad year to be what in other years would have been the 17th best team. Because right now the standard has been raised. You've seen that. You know, we mentioned Leeds there. It's not like they weren't rumored to be perhaps looking at Daniel Farker's future only a few weeks ago and that suddenly turned around so things can change quickly. We're just in a period right now where everybody is not that far away from where they need to be.

Mark Critchley (22:11)

Every club, supporters is looking around the league and saying, how are we not above them? Because everyone feels flawed, everyone feels beatable, essentially, apart from maybe Arsenal and they've just lost at the weekend. So it's that kind of league at the moment. And I think that is just the factor in why we've not seen too many sockets.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (22:31)

This is the Athletic FC Podcast with IO Accumulere.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (22:38)

Christmas, Hanukkah and Festivus are just around the corner. And if you're a last minute shopper, here's a solution to those empty shells and your general lack of inspiration. Aura Frames is a great gift that feels personal. With an incredible HD display and a super easy setup process, this is the sort of present you can give your parents, just like I'm intending to do so they can see their grandchildren even when they're miles away. You can preload and personalize your Aura Frame before it ships, and once it's arrived, you can share unlimited photos and video straight from your phone via the Aura app. You can't wrap togetherness, but you can frame it for a limited time. Save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best selling Carver Matte frames named number one by Wirecutter by using the promo Athletic FC at the checkout. That's auraframes.com and the promo code Athletic FC all in caps with no spaces. This deal is exclusive to our listeners and the frames sell out fast, so order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. That link one more time oraframes.com and the promo code athleticfc. Terms and conditions apply.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (23:46)

This episode of the Athletic FC is brought to you by AG1. AG1 is the daily health drink that combines your multivitamin, pre and probiotics, superfoods and antioxidants into one simple scoop. It's one of the easiest things you can do to support your body every day and at this time of year, with the stresses and strains of holidays, no matter how wonderful your family is, and colder, darker and shorter days make it so much harder to feel energized. It's especially important to be proactive when it comes to supporting your immune health. And let's be honest, it's never too early to make those New Year resolution. So why not start each morning like I do with a scoop of AG1 and feel alert long into the afternoon? That single scoop contains 75 vitamins and minerals and five probiotic strains, and it comes in four delicious flavors, original Tropical Berry and my personal favorite, citrus. Right now, AG1 has their best offer ever. If you head to drinkag1.com athleticfc you'll get the welcome kit, a morning person hat, a bottle of vitamin D3 and K2, an AG1 flavor sampler, and you'll get to try their new sleep supplement AGZ for free, which has been a game changer for my nightly routine. That's D R I N K A G and the number1.com Athletic FC all in caps with no spaces for $126 in free gifts for new subscribers. One last time drink ag1.com AthleticFC.

Mark Critchley (25:05)

As.

LinkedIn Jobs Voice (25:05)

A small business owner, you don't have the luxury of clocking out early. Your business is on your mind 24 7. So when you're hir need a partner that grinds just as hard as you do. That hiring partner is LinkedIn jobs when you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in. LinkedIn makes it easy to post your job for free, share it with your network, and get qualified candidates that can manage all in one place. Here's how it works. Post your job LinkedIn's new feature can help you write job descriptions and then quickly get your job in front of the right people with deep candidate insights. Either post your job for free or pay to promote Vote Promoter Jobs get three times more qualified Applicants get qualified candidates at the end of the day, the most important thing to your small business is the quality of candidates. And with LinkedIn you can feel confident that you're getting the best. Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of SMBs using LinkedIn say that LinkedIn helps them find high quality candidates. You can let your network know you're hiring. You can even add a hiringframe to your profile picture and get two times more qualified candidates. Candidates Find out why more than 2.5 million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring today. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free@LinkedIn.com baseball show. That's LinkedIn.combaseballshow to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.

Ayo Akamolere (26:30)

Well, let's move on because let's talk about Premier League managers who could potentially be in trouble this season. They won last night in the Champions League, Jack, but Spurs players have. You know, the fans have voiced their frustrations over the style of football under Thomas Frank, but would it be a bit too knee jerk to get rid of him now?

Jack Pitt-Brooke (26:49)

Yeah, I think it would be. I don't think. Look, they haven't been playing great. Clearly their lead position is okay. The performances have been a bit underwhelming, although they do seem to have picked up a bit in the last week. I think. I don't really think it would make sense to sack him now because he's just, he's just starting a new thing. Like he's just, you know, he took over in the summer. They had a weird season last year. They won the Europa league, but came 17th. They lost 22 Premier League games. The squad is not great. The best attacking players are injured. Solanki, Kulasevski, Madison have not, none of them have started a game for him yet. So I just think it's, I think it's probably time for a bit of patience and to give him the chance to rebuild and because there's been so much change in the club over the course of this year, you know, with Daniel Levy getting sacked and so on, I just think that even if they did sack him tomorrow, a lot of people would say, well, what's the strategy now? What's the plan? Like who, you know, what's the, what's the route from here to become good again? Because it's not like a new manager would come in and instantly be able to turn this group of players into like a top, an obviously top four team. So my, my view is that I think it's time for some stability and some patience, even though I'm not going to argue that the football has been dazzling so far.

Ayo Akamolere (28:07)

Reuben Amarim. Another season of, I guess, how could I put this mildly, roller coaster results. But, you know, does it matter? Because, you know, we look at what Sir Jim Ratcliffe said about giving the manager a bit more time to prove himself. And much like Thomas Frank, you do need a little bit more time to implement your ideas, perhaps bring the players that you want in and actually, you know, Manchester United in the background aren't the most succinct club right now, like many other clubs in the Premier League league.

Mark Critchley (28:35)

No, I think that's true. I feel that the expectations have been significantly lowered for United this season, more so than in any other year that I can remember covering them, really most years, the minimum standard would be Champions League football. I don't think that's necessarily the case this year. I think there's an acceptance that given how poor last season was, given how low they finished, that the bar has been lowered and that should make it easier to clear because the league is the way that it is right now. That makes it quite difficult to judge Ruben Amarim on how he's doing, I think. And you're seeing huge swings in opinion from week to week, as I mentioned before. And whether they win or lose, one result justifies the people who are Amari in. He needs more time, he needs to be shown patience. And then they'll go and lose to 10 man Everton at Old Trafford and suddenly everything's justified in terms of, well, he's only one. I think at that it was 12 games in 12 months last season is brought back into the equation again in terms of the assessment of him. And it's a difficult place, I think in terms of his support within the club, I don't think that's really ever been in question. Despite the results and Ratcliffe coming out and saying what he did about having three more years or three years to judge him, I should be specific on that. Three years to judge him. That came at a point where it was right after the Brentford game, which was another example of where the pressure was sort of ramping up again. I think that helped. You saw the team win three games back to back. Immediately after those comments. Amerdim said itself, it sort of stabilized things. He always felt that support internally at the club, but the fact that it was out there in the open, it just dialed the pressure down slightly. So I think it helped. And I believe Ratcliffe, when he says it as well, in terms of the three years, it's not quite three years because Amarin's on a two and a half year deal, so it's not going to. It's a slight exaggeration, but over the three years, I get the sense that they want this to work. Amrin himself, his future, he was the choice of some people who Omar Berarda essentially, and Jason Wilcox, who were installed in those positions by Ineos. And I would hesitate to say they've staked their reputation on him, but it feels that they're somewhat linked in that respect as well. And so I think that's a factor as well that you have to consider. But ultimately, three years, all these intermeshing factors that come into the equation on his future, I feel that you have to get results. As United manager at the moment, he's able to say, look, we're not that far off where we need to be, and we're expected to be this season. I can clear that bar, which, as I say, has been lowered. And I think for that reason he's not in any imminent danger at the minute. Absolutely not.

Ayo Akamolere (31:18)

Okay. I want to move slightly away from the Premier League, actually, and say slightly, let's go to another league in Europe, because I think the big news is Xabi Alonso feels like he's at serious danger at Real Madrid. I mean, they've only lost two games and I know they've drawn maybe three this season. Currently second in La Liga, I think four points behind Barcelona. For any other team, Jack, that's pretty decent. Let's see how we go. But for Real Madrid, for some reason, there's serious pressure on the manager. I mean, is this unrealistic, untenable?

Jack Pitt-Brooke (31:52)

I feel like the issue here is probably not so much the results or the performances, but the. The sense that Alonso is, you know, the athletics done a lot of really good reporting, really, which is really worth reading on this, but the. The sense that Alonso is trying to dictate to the players in a way that color Ancelotti never did like. Real Madrid is such a unique club, and it's seemingly a club where the players are very powerful and the. The right type of manager is the manager who says to the players, you know, you're great players. We'll figure out a way together to win this game. And that was, you know, I'm generalizing a bit, but I think that's kind of the Ancelotti approach or the Zidane approach, which is obvious. You know, Zidane, who's an unbelievably light touch manager, was very, very successful there. Whereas Alonso's approach seems to be more akin to what we see from the top Premier League sides, which is very clear ideas about how he wants to go about it, very clear tactical plan, and that means that the players have to comply with him rather than, you know, rather than the other way around. That's such a different vibe at Real Madrid and it runs so counter to how they've been running the last few years that I just feel like that is probably what is undermining him rather than the fact they're four points of Barcelona because they're definitely good in, like, I'm sure they're good enough to recover that position. They're doing quite well in the Champions League too. They could easily win things, but it's just a very different way of working as a it.

Ayo Akamolere (33:17)

Yeah. Let's see how the rhetoric around that changes after the game between Real Madrid and Manchester City in the Champions League. But quickly on this one, Critch, you know, I think about the Xabi Alonso at Bayern Leverkusen and that unbeaten season and the style of football, and it was so brilliant. Right. But I'm also looking at a collective of players in that team that probably aren't, you know, number one signings for Real Madrid. So it's easier to implement your ideas onto players like that. You go to a team like Real Madrid, you're talking about. About big egos, world beaters, players that have won the Champions League as well, try telling them how to play football. Can that be a bit difficult for a manager stepping into those kind of shoes?

Mark Critchley (33:56)

Yes, I Think Jack nailed it. If you think about the managers who have succeeded at Real Madrid, as he mentioned, it's Ancelotti, it's Zidane. If you try to define Zidaneism to me, I don't know what it would actually be, apart from just clapping your hands on the touchline and saying, yeah, come on, lads, and just being Zinedine Zidane, which is very different from, I think, the school of modern coaches and the school that Alonso's come from. You think about that Leverkusen side. It was so tactically intricate in what they would do. It was all about how they would build up. It was all about how they would press. People were studying this guy as the great young hope of European coaching because his ideas were very sophisticated. That's all well and good. I don't know if it works at a club like Real Madrid, where history would suggest it doesn't work at a club like Real Madrid, because their two most successful managers, we're the antithesis of that. And so I feel like that's possibly part of Alonso's problem walking in there. If it didn't work out, I'm sure he'd still come away from that job, not necessarily damaged by it, because I think people do treat it as unique. I always have to catch myself when I'm talking about United, and I describe it as like no other job in world football, because I know there's that one at the Santiago Bernabeu that is so much more difficult than just about any other.

James Horncastle (35:14)

It's true.

Mark Critchley (35:15)

Yeah. It's just. It's just a unique set of circumstances. So I don't think it damages Alonso's reputation if it doesn't work out. I still think he's shown enough coaching acumen in Germany at Leverkusen to suggest that it might still. But the expectations, as I said again, are just completely different at that club compared to any other. And that's possibly why, after only losing, what, two games in the league, we're asking these questions about his future.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (35:44)

This episode of the Athletic FC is brought to you by LinkedIn. If you've ever hired for your small business, you know how important it is to find the right person. That's why LinkedIn Jobs is stepping things up with their new AI assistant. So you can feel confident you're finding top talent that you can't find anywhere else. The best part is those great candidates are already on LinkedIn. In fact, employees hired through LinkedIn are 30% more likely to stick around for at least a year. Year compared to those hired through the leading competitor. And that's a big deal when every hire counts and hiring doesn't have to be complicated. With LinkedIn Jobs AI Assistant, you can skip the confusing steps and recruiting jargon. It filters through applicants based on criteria you've set for your role and surfaces only the best matches so you're not stuck sorting through a mountain of resumes. Because when you have a business to run, you don't have hours to spend on hiring and you don't want to just wait around hoping the right person stumbles upon your job. That's why LinkedIn Jobs AI assistant suggests 25 great fit candidates daily so you can invite them to apply and keep things moving. So hire right the first time. Post your job for free@LinkedIn.com Athletic FC then promote it to use LinkedIn Jobs new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That's LinkedIn.com AthleticFC to boost your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.

Mark Critchley (37:00)

When you're a forward thinker, you don't.

Ayo Akamolere (37:02)

Just bring your A game, you bring your AI game.

Mark Critchley (37:05)

Workday is the AI platform that transforms the way you manage your people, money and agents so you can transform tomorrow. Workday moving business forever forward.

Ayo Akamolere (37:15)

We spend a third of our lives.

Mark Critchley (37:17)

In bed, so why settle for ordinary sheets? Miracle made sheets use NASA inspired silver.

Ayo Akamolere (37:24)

Infused fabric to keep you cool, clean and comfortable all night long. The silver naturally fights bacteria so your sheets stay fresher up to three times longer. That means fewer washes, clearer skin and better sleep. They're soft, breathable and built to last. An affordable luxury that actually delivers.

Mark Critchley (37:48)

It's not magic, it's science inspired by.

Ayo Akamolere (37:52)

Innovation designed for everyday life. Because sometimes the simplest upgrades make the biggest difference. This Christmas, upgrade your sleep or give the gift of better rest. Go to trymiracle.com clean to try miracle made sheets today you'll save over 40% and when you use promo code Clean you'll get an extra 20% off plus a free 3 piece towel set set.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (38:28)

You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akamolere.

Ayo Akamolere (38:33)

So we've talked about plenty of managers who might be getting the sack, but who are the next generations of managers to fill those positions? Well, let's hear from the athletics. James Horncastle on one young manager doing very well in Italy, a beautiful part of Italy. Here's his verdict on Cesc Fabregas.

James Horncastle (38:49)

CESC is in a unique position in world football. Let me explain. He is a coach and co owner of the team. He coaches Como and it means Cesc has more power and influence at Como than he could expect anywhere else. Como, since they got promoted 18 months ago, have been the biggest spenders in Serie A in each of the last two summers. And gradually, window by window, he's been able to take the team in the direction he wants. The other thing with Cesc is this is not someone who basically goes into a game with a pre prepared script that the players must stick to and if the opponents do something else, Cesc is stuck. Cesc has shown his ability to read games, to change games, to adapt. This season they've lost only twice. In fact, until the defeat to Inter at San Siro last weekend, they hadn't been beaten since August. I would say Cesc is one of the best up and coming managers in European football. I'd be interested to see him outside of Como. But already last year or last summer, Cesc had interest from several Bundesliga clubs, RB Leipzig, Bayer Leverkusen in Italy. Roma and Inter gave him serious consideration. And it was only really because Como were able to say, well, you won't have the power and influence there that you have here. And crucially you're a co owner if you go and work for Inter and Roma. It's a conflict of interest. There is no doubt in my mind that Cesc has what it takes to maybe go to Barcelona, maybe go to City, maybe go to Arsenal if and when he chooses to leave Como.

Ayo Akamolere (40:44)

Wow, some big names there by James. Who knows where Cess Fabregas is going to end up. And actually while we're talking about Como, make sure you check out the interview we did with Como's president, Mehrwan Sorwasso on the Athletic right now. Great guy, super insightful and definitely kept Matt on his toes as well. Right, Jed Sense one I want to mention especially to you, Jack, is someone who's coached in the Premier League, but currently in the championship. And I'm talking about Frank Lampard, Chelsea legend. We know what he's done as a footballer, but as a manager, feels like he's finding his feet here at Coventry. He'll currently top of the championship at the moment, Jack.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (41:22)

Yeah, he's doing amazingly well. Like they're, they're dominating the championship, they're playing great football, they're scoring goals. Remember like some eyebrows were raised when he took over from Mark Robbins last season. You know, Robbins had done really, really well at Covent a long period of time and I think people, you know, some people were surprised when the ownership decides to make that change. But I, I Think it's really. It's really encouraging to see how well Lampard is doing there. And I get the impression from talking to people who. Who know him or who work with him that he's really. He's kind of learned a lot from his experiences so far. Like, obviously, you know, he did pretty well. He did well. He did really well at Derby first time around, getting him into the playoffs and then went to Chelsea, where he started really well. And then he kind of lost. Lost control of it a little bit. And then Everton went into a difficult situation there and then back to Chelsea as a. As a caretaker, which was tough. So he's been, you know, he's had a few different jobs and learned things, but I feel like he's kind of. Someone said to me that he. He's learned how to. He's kind of better relating to his players than he was in the past. Like, he's got. He's developed a really, really strong group ethic there at Coventry. And frankly, I'd love to see them in the Premier League next season. I think that they, you know, Lampard's Coventry would be a really, really good addition to the Premier League season next season.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (42:37)

Yeah.

Ayo Akamolere (42:37)

Craig, before we go, who have you got your eye on? Anyone else we should be talking about? We spoke about Fabregas for obvious reasons, but who else might be on the tips of people's tongues that might not be getting the recognition they deserve?

Mark Critchley (42:48)

You had him on the pod a few weeks ago. Actually, I think Liam Racino at Strasbourg.

Ayo Akamolere (42:53)

Oh, yeah.

Mark Critchley (42:53)

Just because I listened to the pod. He comes across as a really effective communicator. He's obviously managed to get Strasbourg into Europe in his first season there. I think he was. Was pretty unfairly treated by Hull City. Finished seventh just outside the playoffs and then. And then was sacked effectively because of a disagreement over football in philosophy or whatever. Look, he's made a promising start, I think, to a young managerial career. And like I say, like listening to him the other week, he just comes across as like a deep thinker about the game, an effective communicator, as I say, and somebody who, you know, I think a lot of clubs would be looking at because Strasbourg, they're of course part of Blue cup and Clear Lake's operation. So with link to Chelsea, they know what they're looking for when they go for young players. I think they probably know what they're looking for when they go for young coaches as well. And they pick Rossini to go to Strasbourg. So I think that's an endorsement of him and I think he's one to watch.

Ayo Akamolere (43:47)

Yeah, definitely comes across well, speaks well and actually his philosophy beyond football is what I got from that interview is so, so interesting as well. All right gents, let's leave it there. Jack, Rich, appreciate your time and also thank you guys guys for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (44:03)

You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabre and Jay Beal. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and Avi Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe the Athletic FF Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (44:38)

This episode of the Athletic FC is brought to you by LinkedIn. If you've ever hired for your small business, you know how important it is to find the right person. That's why LinkedIn Jobs is stepping things up with their new AI assistant, so you can feel confident you're finding top 10 talent that you can't find anywhere else. The best part is those great candidates are already on LinkedIn. In fact, employees hired through LinkedIn are 30% more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through the leading competitor. And that's a big deal when every hire counts and hiring doesn't have to be complicated. With LinkedIn Jobs AI Assistant, you can skip the confusing steps and recruiting jargon. It filters through applicants based on criteria you've set for your role and surfaces only only the best matches so you're not stuck sorting through a mountain of resumes. Because when you have a business to run, you don't have hours to spend on hiring and you don't want to just wait around hoping the right person stumbles upon your job. That's why LinkedIn Jobs AI assistant suggests 25 great fit candidates daily so you can invite them to apply and keep things moving. So hire right the first time. Post your job for free@LinkedIn.com athleticfc. Then promote it to use LinkedInjobs new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That's LinkedIn.com AthleticFC to boost your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (45:55)

Starting a podcast or business can feel overwhelming schedules, logos and endless decisions. But the right tool can change everything for millions. That tool is Shopify.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (46:07)

Shopify powers 10% of all US E commerce from Mattel to new brands just launched, launching with templates for beautiful stores, AI tools for content and built in marketing. Shopify helps you sell smarter. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com TheAthletic go to shopify.com TheAthLetic shopify.com TheAthLETic.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (46:40)

Business software is expensive. And when you buy software from a lot of different companies, it's not only expensive, it gets confusing. Slow to use, hard to integrate. Odoo solves that because all Odoo software is connected on a single affordable platform. Save money without missing out on the features you need. Odoo has no hidden costs and no limit on features or data. Odoo has over 60 apps available for any needs your business might have have, all at no additional charge. Everything from websites and sales to inventory and accounting. All linked in talking to each other. Check out odoo@odoo.com that's odoo.com.