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- [00:03]
Simon Hughes
At New Balance, we believe if you run, you're a runner, however you choose to do it. Because when you're not worried about doing.
- [00:12]
Oli Kay
Things the right way, you're free to discover your way.
- [00:22]
Simon Hughes
And that's what running's all about. Run your way@newbalance.com running.
- [00:30]
Oli Kay
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Ayo Akinwale
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Oli Kay
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- [01:01]
Ayo Akinwale
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- [01:34]
Simon Hughes
Network.
- [01:38]
Ayo Akinwale
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me Ayo Akinwalere. Liverpool have moved 11 points clear in the Premier League title race with their Egyptian king leading the way by Mac Allister.
- [01:48]
Oli Kay
On by Szoboszlai.
- [01:49]
Ayo Akinwale
Hit by Salah.
- [01:52]
Simon Hughes
There's that beaming Egyptian smile again.
- [01:55]
Ayo Akinwale
His goal and assists are edging him towards records set by Henry and De Bruyne. Mohamed Salah is one of the Premier League's greatest. Greatest. But could he be the greatest with us today? We have the big guns with us. Fresh from watching the game at the Etihad we have Oly Kay as well as Simon Hughes, author of Chasing Salah, the biography of Mohamed Salajed. It's good to have you with us Oli. Let's start with you. Liverpool fans were singing we're gonna win the league at the end of the win at the Etihad. Look they are 11 points clear at the top of the Premier League. Surely there is no catch catching them now is there?
- [02:35]
Oli Kay
Well it's begun to feel like that even if you go back. I mean honest lot pointed this out. If you go back to post match at Aston Villa he was being asked about are your team getting nervous? Are they getting anxious. They played poorly in victory over Wolves the previous weekend and I think a lot of people looked at this weekend, I think our Arsenal fans probably looked at this weekend and thought if there's a chance to pull things back, it's going to be this weekend. Because they were Arsenal home to West Ham and Man City against Liverpool it felt like there was perhaps an opportunity for things to swing in Arsenal's direction. But the exact opposite happened. Obviously West Ham won at Arsenal on Saturday afternoon and then Liverpool went to the Etihad and a really mature, grown up, comprehensive, formidable performance. Performance of Champions, you would say. Champions in waiting at least. And I think that their supporters have been a little bit reticent and reluctant to, to sing about winning the league. They've been stung a couple of times over the, over the past decade. But you heard it at the final whistle, there it was, we're going to win the. Then as the ground emptied, it was hand it over, hand it over. Hand it over Manchester.
- [03:37]
Ayo Akinwale
Simon. There's a bit of footage with Liverpool fans staying right till the end of the match and actually after it had finished still singing their hearts out because what an emphatic win away at the Etihad. But I guess the style of the win was also interesting and two things really, how interesting is it that Schlott has been able to sort of mold his team and to adapt to any situation that's faced them. But secondly, we also have to talk about Mo Salah and how it felt so inevitable that he was going to have a, a part in what went on.
- [04:03]
Simon Hughes
Well, it was a complete performance really. I haven't seen Liverpool play that way before in a big away game. You know, over the years Liverpool have had some big results away from home mainly based on, you know, solid defensive performance, nicking a goal or executing the counter attack perfectly on occasion and getting a big result. This was a bit different because they soaked up a lot of pressure but they counterattacked at will and used the ball brilliantly. You know, they were just so good in and out of possession and as soon as Liverpool opened the score and it felt inevitable, I think that Liverpool were going to win the game. And not very often you've been able to say that over the years. It's always been a bit of a struggle when they've got a big win at either Manchester club or some of the London clubs. But this was, I think it was a perfect performance really. And I actually don't think there's been enough conversation about, about the impact Slot has had on it because Salah was that brilliant on the day, you know, to go to City and basically play 4240 without a striker, you know, had it gone against Liverpool, I think he's got a lot of criticism. But to go with that system and master it, I just think it worked perfectly for Liverpool and yeah, performance and results to go down potentially in history.
- [05:27]
Ayo Akinwale
I think I've just wondered what kind of statement it really made. Ole. You know, Liverpool, I don't think have won at the Etihad since 2015 or something like that. And actually to win in such an emphatic way and with clarity and purpose was really fascinating for Liverpool. And almost, you know, now going 11 points clear, it's a real sort of flag in the sand to say, do you know what? Come and get us. Because every time and every week we say, oh, here's a new obstacle. They just seem to overcome it.
- [05:54]
Oli Kay
If you look at the Premier league table, it's 11 points clear. Arsenal have played. And I think it's worth mentioning that. But it doesn't feel as relevant as it did on Saturday morning because once it gets to 11 points, once you've seen a performance like that from Liverpool at City, once you've seen a performance like Arsenal produced at home to West Ham, it doesn't really feel relevant. It doesn't feel like there's enough jeopardy now in this title race. So, yes, it's 11 points clear with the game in hand, but it probably just feels like about 20 points now to Arsenal because every time they've got almost within, not even within touching distance, but within sight. Liverpool have pulled away again and Arsenal have stumbled. And it was two big statements this week. It was a statement Arsenal failed to make and a statement Liverpool did make. And I agree with S because it was a really, really mature, composed, resilient, intelligent, polished, incisive performance. It was, it was, I would say measure it with their, their performance against Manchester City, Anfield as well in early December, that was outstanding in a different way because they had, they had more of the ball and just dominated City in a different way. But those two performances, I think you've seen two outstanding wins. And look, I know people will say, and I will say that beating Man City is not the achievement it has been in the. In the last, you know, eight or nine years. They've lost eight, eight Premier League games this season. They've lost games in Europe, but since the turn of the year, it's taken good performances to beat them. They've lost to Real Madrid twice. PSG Arsenal, Liverpool, four of the best teams in Europe. Four teams who played really, really well on the day, on the different days. And that Liverpool performance was right up there. It was, it was good enough to make you think there is, you know, if it was, if it was a slightly feckless team or slightly frivolous team that was 11 points clear with having played a game more, you might think, yeah, they might let the opposition back in. But this team, it's a very serious team. You look at Alisson, you look at Van Dijk, you look at Salah, you look at Graven Birch and Mac Allister in midfield, don't get necessarily the plaudits, but they are, they are two guys who are having an outstanding season, really intelligent footballers. It doesn't feel to me like there's a way back into this title race for Arsenal or anybody else.
- [08:09]
Ayo Akinwale
Well, you know, we've talked about the team effort and it has been an incredible team effort this season, Simon. But you know, we have to talk about the Egyptian king that is Mo Salah. I mean, I don't know how many stats I'm going to throw in through this podcast, but there are so many. You know, this was the 11th time this season he scored and assisted in a Premier League game. That's the most in a season across Europe's big five leagues since Lionel Messi did it for Barcelona in 2014, 2015 season. Then you add to that, Mo Salah has now scored 13 goals in his career against Manchester City, only against Manchester United 16 and spurs as he scored more. Now what does this say about this player who some might say is in the latter part of his career, about his dependability in the biggest games for Liverpool. But also I guess Simon, in the most decisive moment, he always seems to come up clutch.
- [09:01]
Simon Hughes
Yeah, he always turns up, doesn't he? And the thing that made me laugh about Liverpool's opening goal yesterday, nobody was saying it was a well worked corner. Manchester City had Rico Lewis marking Virgil Van Dijk from a corner which, okay, Pep Guardiola tends to go against the grain, doesn't he, and do something that's, that's less obvious. But I'm just thinking, well, if Virgil Van Dijk heads the ball, he's going to win it, isn't he? So and then not only that, he left Mohamed Salah standing alone pretty much in the middle of the box. You have been warned about this, you know, you leave Mohamed Salah in sight of goal, he's invariably going to score. So it was a well wear corner by Liverpool. But I think certain things just didn't make sense from Manchester City's perspective as well. But his celebration in the goal was quite casual as well. It was just like, yeah, I should be doing this now.
- [09:48]
Ayo Akinwale
It's been like that all season.
- [09:50]
Simon Hughes
All season, yeah. And what really impressed me yesterday was without the ball as well. You know, his wear crate was incredible. Not something that you necessarily associate with him. It's not that he's a lazy player but you don't really, you don't really see him sort of in his own half so much and he was just brilliant on that front as well. But you know, every time he touched the ball it just came alive. It just felt like something was going to happen. Maybe I've said this before so apologies if I have, but the strange thing about him is he arrived at Liverpool as one player, you know, somebody who could just burn past the opponents and to devastating effect. Now he's an altogether very different footballer. You know, he sort of redesigned his game bit like, I don't know, sometimes I want to watch him. I've only seen videos of Kenny's Alglice but it's similar. You know, he uses back a lot, uses his strength, sees the gaps in the defense and he always manages to create space for himself no matter the opponent. He always seems to know where to be on the football pitch. And you know what, I think there were signs of this at the very first game of the season against Ipswich. They've got a good talented left back, Leif Davis, who people are talking about should get a chance with England and I just remember that game. Salah was just like, just too good for him. He's been like that pretty much every game and I just don't think there's any stopping him now. I think he will break some of the assisting goals records this season. It's impossible to see him not doing that. I just don't think the opponent seems to have any answer to his greatness at the moment, which is a mark of greatness.
- [11:20]
Ayo Akinwale
Brilliant. Well, let's look more into that greatness because next we'll look deeper at Salah's numbers and assess where he stands amongst the Premier League's greats.
- [11:31]
Oli Kay
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Acamwalere.
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Simon Hughes
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- [12:36]
Oli Kay
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Simon Hughes
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Oli Kay
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- [13:10]
Simon Hughes
It'S opinion.
- [13:11]
Ayo Akinwale
Maybe people prefer my first season. People prefer now, but I think I prefer now because winning the league, doing your best and helping the team, helping younger players as well, it's incredible.
- [13:22]
Oli Kay
Yeah.
- [13:22]
Ayo Akinwale
That was Mo Salah there talking to Sky Sports after the win at the Etihad about which season has been his best at Liverpool. Simon he scored 44 goals in his first season at Liverpool, which propelled them to the Champions League final in Kiev as well as to fourth place in the Premier League. Has he had a better season than this one though? Because we've talked about it so much. Right. Everything he touches just seems to turn to gold at the moment.
- [13:49]
Simon Hughes
I think this season's been better. It's a more rounded Salah. I've enjoyed watching him more because I think it's a lesson to any young footballer as well, you know, that you can change your game if you work and you study the game, which he does and takes himself, you know, very seriously in a professional sense. So I love that side of the story really because I think now, you know, you see footballers when they burst onto the scene, particularly ones with pace, they sort of fade away, you know, in the back end of the career where Salah just seems to be getting better as a very different footballer. So I'm enjoying watching that transition, really. And particularly in attacking senses, you don't see that Many older players these days, aside from Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi, you know, but he just seems to be getting better and better and better, I'm sure. You know, there's data that says, well, the physical sides of his game might be deteriorating in certain parts, if that exists. No one is yet to produce it publicly anyway. But I just love watching the way he always manages to find a place in the game. Even when he's quiet, he's alive. You know, I know some of the commentary yesterday was talking about Messi and how, you know, sometimes he would just be. Sometimes standing still is fine. You know, you don't have to be moving all the time. Sometimes you just have to wait for the ball to come to you in the right part of the field, where you affect the game. And that confidence in himself, I mean, I think he seems more confident than he's ever been of his own place. So for me, I've enjoyed watching this version of him more. Albeit, you know, nobody expected Mohamed Salah to score all the goals that he did in his first season. So there was that sort of surprise element of it. Nobody expected Liverpool to be going to the Champions League final, which they did. But I would say he is equally influential on, you know, the. The direction of Liverpool season in both campaigns.
- [15:32]
Oli Kay
His first season was. Was remarkable because we were just seeing him score. I mean, look, not. Not all of them were Pruskus Award contenders, but it almost felt like that at times. There were just a number of amazing goals. He was such a surprise package. The hottest property in the Premier League right now. He was so fast. He was electrifying. He was. You know, there was something a little bit messy like in some of his dribbles, some of his goals. I'm not saying he's a Messi like player. He's not. Nobody is. But he was that sort of exciting. He was suddenly the best attacker in the. In the Premier League overnight. That was a thrill to watch him burst through in that season. So I was talking about physical decline. If we'd been on this podcast last season, I would have said, well, look, he is clearly in physical decline. I felt he was. I felt we saw less and less of that acceleration bursting past defenders. He looked frustrated a lot of the time. He had games where he was quite peripheral. And look his figure. His numbers at the end of the season were still really good. 18 Premier League goals in 32 appearances, 25 goals in all competitions. Loads of assists as well. But. But there were a lot of games where you just thought he's not made an impact today. So look, I'm amazed by what he's done this season. Not that I've ever doubted his quality, but I thought he was on the way. I didn't think he had the ability to step up again and raise his level even higher. His career in the Premier League already puts him in that conversation about great players that we've seen in the Premier League. But this season I think probably dispels the convenient, easy narrative that he doesn't do this or he does that or he's a selfish player. Look, he might be selfish at times, but he's also one of the best creative players, one of the best assisters. Assisters? Is that a word?
- [17:21]
Ayo Akinwale
You've just made it up. Take it you haven't it assistants that.
- [17:23]
Oli Kay
We'Ve seen in the league. He's just a fantastic player.
- [17:26]
Ayo Akinwale
As you're talking about Premier League greats, Oli, I mean, sorry to throw more stats at you, but this season he scored 30 goals in all competitions, 25 in the Premier League, 21 assists or assistants, as you like to call it, in all competitions and 16 in the Premier League. I mean, when you talk about Premier League greats, I'm thinking about two great seasons Thierry Henry had where he was 30 plus goals and so many assists. Cristiano Ronaldo, 40 plus goals in a in a particular season. You know, these are two comparable wide players that were absolutely superb and tore the Premier League to shreds. We can put him in that category for sure. Oli.
- [18:01]
Oli Kay
I think so. If you're talking about Premier League greats, my instinct, you know, for the last 20 years has been that Thierry Henry has been the greatest attacker of the Premier League era, even, even more than Shearer, even more than Cristiano Ronaldo, whose real true prime came at Real Madrid. But Salah's up there in that conversation in terms of not just hitting heights, but sustaining heights over a really, really long time. A bad season for Salah is like one of the best seasons of most players career. I think I would still keep Thierry Henry at the top because I felt like for probably a two year period I was watching the best player in the world or the best attacking player in the world at that time. I mean, Ronaldinho would be the other one that you'd throw in at that time. And it was also a time when the Premier League was much more defensive. There were a lot fewer goals in the Premier League. So when he was scoring 30 goals in a season, it felt like, I mean he was head and Shoulders above, above everybody else, even van Nislrooy and Fowler and Owen and Jimmy Floyd, Hasselbank, other players that were around at that time, young Wayne Rooney. Henry was absolutely incredible. To me he is unsurpassed in terms of that level within the Premier League. But look Salah is absolutely part of that conversation. And anybody who dismisses Salah's claims to being an all time Premier League great or Rodri or De Bruyne or van Dijks, we are witnessing modern greats and they are in terms of, in terms of the level they're reaching is extraordinary.
- [19:34]
Ayo Akinwale
This season Salah Simon has overtaken Robbie Fowler, Henry and Lampard in terms of goals and he's just two behind Sergio Aguero. Now I want to also compare him to another Liverpool great who had an astounding season in 2013 14, Luis Suarez who let's, let's face it, some would have said single handedly almost carried Liverpool to the title. Is Salah a better player than Suarez all round? Because that season that Suarez was on fire, I mean I remember goals against Norwich that he just obliterated them beautifully and also he was just so dangerous. Is Salah better than that?
- [20:11]
Simon Hughes
Like it's very hard to say who's better. I think you can assess the impact that they have at the club and the team at the time I remember thinking, or certainly writing anyway when Suarez was at Liverpool, if either stayed the same length of time as Salah then there'd be more of an argument for Suarez. But when you leave it means that it reduces your argument. So Salah should be, Salah should be mindful of this at the moment. You know I'm sure going to get onto his contract situation. Just drawing it back a little bit to what Ollie was talking about with Henry. I think what helps Thierry Henry's argument is that he's Arsenal's all time top scorer. Now Salah is a little bit unlucky that he's got Ian Rush ahead of him. So if we could say oh Salah is Liverpool's all time top scorer straight away, you know given Liverpool's history, which obviously Arsenal a massive club but Liverpool have won six European Cup Champions leagues which some that Arsenal haven't done obviously more league titles to do that at Liverpool would be absolutely ridiculous to be honest. So he is unlucky that he's got Ian Rush ahead of him. But to answer your question on Suarez, I mean I love watching Suarez at his best, you know he was a tornado, wasn't he? I mean you couldn't stop him, two totally different players. I think these actually play really well together. It's one of those sort of only things. But as it stands, you know, Salah, as Ali said consistently over a long period of time, has just been ridiculously good, I think. I suppose what he lacks at the moment is obviously like Henry, you know, Henry won, was it two or three League titles with Arsenal? Salah only has one. Strangely, in those sort of two seasons winning the Champions League and then the League, he wasn't quite at his very best. You know, even when Liverpool, when Liverpool actually got there, got over the line. I remember I wrote the other day about how Sadio Mane In 2019, when Liverpool win the Champions League and Salah scores in the Champions League final, Sadio Mane finishes above him in the Ballon d'or, as does Virgil van Dijk. You know, statistically it wasn't Salah's. His great, greatest season this season, you know, given the number of goals, given what Liverpool could win, I think that will, from Salah's perspective, it will. It will top everything that he's done before at Liverpool because he could finish Premier League's top scorer, could win the Ballon d'or, could win the Premier League, might even win the Champions League. So that for him, that is the stuff of legend, isn't it? Which will put him way ahead of somebody like Luis Suarez because ultimately Suarez couldn't get over the line when it matters, unfortunately for him.
- [22:41]
Ayo Akinwale
Yeah, Ollie, the Ballon d'or question is really interesting for me because it's something we were talking about yesterday on the Athletica WhatsApp group and we were saying, why has Salah never picked up the Ballon d'or even been considered in the top three for Le Ballon d'or? If you go by what Simon's just said, you know, that those, you know, league winning seasons or Champions League winning campaigns, he probably wasn't the star player through that period. But is it just that or do you think there's more to it?
- [23:07]
Oli Kay
It's fascinating with the Ballon d'or. I mean, it is a popularity contest. I would say that more often than not, it's the right result. And I know some people think Messi got more than he deserved. I almost tend to think Messi got taken for granted so much that he got fewer than he deserved. But it's generally dictated by winning the Champions League or winning the big prizes or winning the World cup or the Euros. Playing in Afcon doesn't seem to register as much. Sadly, he's had an outstanding season. If you were saying right now who has been the best player in world football this season, I think you would say. I think you would say Salah. If you're going for an attacking player, you would say Salah. I think you could make a really good argument for Van Dijk as well. We've not really discussed him in this podcast, but I think he's been absolutely outstanding. But defenders never seem to win it. I think if he wasn't going to win it in 2019, he probably never will. But I think certainly be in that contention at the end of the season. But if, for example, Real Madrid win the Champions League again, even Mbappe scores the winning goal or continues to contribute in a really big way as he has done over the past couple of months, then, yeah, I think people are more seduced by the idea of Real Madrid players being Ballon d'or winners. I don't think it's rare for a Premier League player to win it, as Rodri did last season, at the expense of Vinicius Junior. And you saw how Real Madrid threw the toys out of the pram then. Is the sort of Real Madrid lobbying going to be even greater than usual? I don't know. But in terms of actual performance level this season so far, and there's still three months to go, I would say Salah's been the best.
- [24:48]
Ayo Akinwale
Yeah, Simon, on that Ballon d'or conversation, you know, George Weir is still the only ever African player to have lifted that trophy. Can we say Salah is the best African player there has ever been since George Weir. Some might talk about Didier Drogba and what he's done with the Ivory coast and obviously what he did with Chelsea and winning the Champions League. But, I mean, Mo Salah's numbers are absolutely astonishing, consistently.
- [25:11]
Simon Hughes
Yeah, Well, I suppose you've got to think about, you know, Drogbet. His popularity and importance extends beyond football because of the role that he had in the civil war and in Cote d'ivoire. And I went there for AFCON last year, and I mean, he's. The reverence with which he's held is just, Just, just incredible. And I mean, I remember being told. Told a story about how he was at a bank in Abidjan and somebody saw him and tried to approach him, and this guy just got so excited that he took all his clothes off. Now, I was not expecting that. No, sorry, sorry. But, but I, I don't think. I don't think Muhammad Salah evokes that sort of excitement, you know, In Egypt.
- [26:01]
Ayo Akinwale
You never know the spirits of Liverpool.
- [26:03]
Simon Hughes
I, yeah, yeah, he, you know, don't get me wrong, he, he is, he is loved by a lot of people in Egypt, but he sort of stands aside almost from society. You know, it's a difficult, it's a difficult time to be the most famous footballer that the country has ever produced at a time when it's an authoritarian regime. You know, it's. I suppose the context is different between both players. Salah does a lot of things, you know, for, for charity and tries to help out as much as he can, but even by doing that it sort of raises a lot of awareness around some of the things that the Egyptian state isn't doing. So he's trying to tread a careful game. But in terms of actual importance and greatness in Europe and in the Premier League, I mean, I would say Drogba was a very important player to Chelsea, but he never produced the sort of, well, certainly the numbers in terms of goals that Salah has very, you know, he was playing as a, as a strong center forward where Salah obviously you might say, well, Salah's playing off the wing, so Salah scoring more goals is more impressive. But the game has changed. There's more opportunity for wide players, particularly playing on the opposite side of the pitch. Obviously Salah's left footed to score goals now but, but I think that Salah has had a bigger impact on the Premier League than Drogba did really over a longer period of time. It's difficult, isn't it, because the world changes as well and football changes and you know, players, you might say, well, usabio was obviously, he was born in Mozambique, right, wasn't he? Mozambique in Portuguese. So you can't discount him, can you, in terms of the impact that he's had on the game? You know, somebody like, I would argue even somebody like Roger Miller, you know, like sort of in terms of raising the, raising the profile of African football and making people stand up and actually realize, you know, how great it can be. So there's all different ways of measuring it really. But I mean as a modern player, you know, Certainly the last 10, 15 years, I mean, I don't think anybody really gets close to Mohamed Salah. And what I love about his story is as well, you know, it's not just this like sort of, you know, there was a big significant period of struggle for him in Europe as well. And he, you know, he got over that, proved himself again to become, you know, such a key figure in the Liverpool team and in Liverpool's history. So I'm not really giving you a definitive answer there. I'm sorry. But I think he's, I do think he's, he's definitely one of the great modern footballers from Africa or any other continent, to be honest.
- [28:43]
Oli Kay
Yeah.
- [28:43]
Ayo Akinwale
I mean, I'm still thinking about someone taking their heads off a dropper, but that's a whole different conversation. Next, we'll assess what the future could hold for Salah asking he heads into the final few months of his Liverpool contract.
- [28:56]
Oli Kay
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akinwaleere.
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Ayo Akinwale
I can say to my new Samsung.
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Simon Hughes
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Ayo Akinwale
Friendly restaurant nearby and text it to Beth and Steve.
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Oli Kay
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Simon Hughes
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Ayo Akinwale
Squats anywhere I can. 1, 2, 3.
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Oli Kay
Will that be cash or crew credit?
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Ayo Akinwale
Credit.
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Simon Hughes
4 Galaxy S25 Ultra the AI companion.
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Oli Kay
That does the heavy lifting.
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Ayo Akinwale
So you can do you get yours@samsung.com.
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Simon Hughes
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- [29:39]
Oli Kay
It's not just for celebrities so do like I did and have one of your assistants assist instance switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com.
- [29:48]
Simon Hughes
Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3.
- [29:52]
Ayo Akinwale
Month plan equivalent to $15 per month.
- [29:54]
Simon Hughes
Required intro rate first 3 months only then full price plan options available, taxes.
- [29:58]
Ayo Akinwale
And fees, extra fee, full terms@mintmobile.com get.
- [30:01]
Oli Kay
The Angel Re special at McDonald's. Now let's break it down. My favorite barbecue sauce, American cheese, crispy.
- [30:06]
Simon Hughes
Bacon, pickles, onions and a sesame to.
- [30:09]
Oli Kay
See bun of course. And don't forget the fries and the drinks.
- [30:12]
Ayo Akinwale
Sound good? I participate in restaurants for a limited time.
- [30:17]
Oli Kay
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akamolera.
- [30:24]
Ayo Akinwale
I guess I just also want to just talk about, you know, the Ballon d'or conversation Simon because you know this is a player that's never won it or been in the top three. How much do you think think there's an obsession for him to win that because by being given the Ballon d'or outright no one can question his ability, no one can question his nationality and no one can question what he has given to football. And you know, does he need Liverpool as much as Liverpool need him? Can he win it if he went to Saudi Arabia, for instance.
- [30:53]
Simon Hughes
As you said earlier, George Ware was the last African footballer to win the Ballon d'or. Since then, we've had Zinedine Zidane winning it in 1998. He was born in France, but obviously Algerian heritage. Then we have Karen Benzema, who, again, born in France, Algerian heritage. So Salah would become the first. The first African footballer born in the continent of Africa. Albeit some Egyptians or quite a lot of Egyptians feel quite disconnected from Africa as well. Yeah, you're right.
- [31:25]
Oli Kay
You're right.
- [31:25]
Ayo Akinwale
You're absolutely spot on. North Africa's got a very interesting relationship with the rest of us. Africa for sure.
- [31:29]
Simon Hughes
You know, I. I spent quite a lot of time with Egyptians during afcon, and they. They refer to the rest of Africa as Africa, as if Egypt is not a part of Africa. And it is at a crossroads, you know, between different, different regions. But if Salah were to. To win it this year, he would be the first, certainly North African or Middle Eastern footballer to win it. So it's. It's a big, you know, it's a. It's a big deal, you know, a very, very big deal. I think he understands, you know, having spent time listening to people who know him very well, he understands that to get there, he has to win the Champions League. Really, you know, again, you know, to give him, to put him in that conversation, the Premier League won't be enough. He needs to get both. So it is a motivation. But the first primary. The primary motivation is to. Is to win the Premier League and then the Champions League as well, because he knows that with, certainly with our. The latter of those two competitions, he's got no chance, really, because it does. I think I wrote a piece last week about how. I think that the last, out of the last 18 winners of the Ballon d'Or 13 have either, either won the Champions League or the World cup in that year. So it says quite a lot about how people tend to react to those achievements. And as Oli says, you know, it would just take Real Madrid to beat Liverpool in the final and Buffet to score a hat trick. And then he's the best player in the world, isn't he? You know, in a lot of people's heads, you know, them being assessing sort of the overall season to some degree. And, you know, going back to the start of this season, I mean, when I was writing the book about him, I was told in August, you know, that he felt then that this was his season, you know, which really struck me as quite, you know, A thing really because as Ollie said earlier in the conversation, he wasn't great last season. He had that the conversation around his injuries were understandable. You know, I was in the ground in Abidjan where when he pulled his hamstring and I thought this is a big moment this in, in his season and Liverpool season, in Salah's career. You don't, you don't see this sort of thing happen to him. And it happened and it did take time for him to get back. My mitigation form was that he was trying to get back into the team at a time when there were several other players who'd been injured, all trying to get up to speed. Just the point when Liverpool had to put a run together to go and try and win the league. And I think it was just a bit too much for everybody. This is while, you know, Jurgen Klopp's announced that he's easily even the club as well. So there's not a lot of emotion swirling around the club. But yeah, he was convinced in the summer that this was going to be a big season for him. He spent, you know, a big part of the pre season tour researching, you know, his own game and analyzing his own game. I remember being told that, you know, in the, in the hotels he spends his evenings watching coverage of the games, the friendly matches that he just played to try and understand what Arnesot wanted out of him so he could become better come back in such lean condition, you know. And you put it all together. You know, I think, I think Liverpool are close to winning the Premier League. They're not far away, still some distance from winning the Champions League. You know, it's still very difficult competition to win. They haven't got a favorable draw. Really think psg, we finished, you know, top of the group and get psg. It's a bit, it doesn't seem right to me but you know, if they're going to win that competition this year, they're going to really, really have to prove that they are, you know, very much the best team in Europe.
- [34:51]
Ayo Akinwale
Yeah. Oli, should Liverpool fans be worried that a player who's scored and assisted 41 of Liverpool's 64 Premier League goals at 64% could be leaving at the end of the season? I mean he still hasn't signed a contract and it's still incredible that with all that looming he's still achieving such great heights this season.
- [35:10]
Oli Kay
Yeah. And likewise Van Dijk and you would say Alexander Arnold's not perhaps been at the same level as those Other two have in terms of individual performance but you know, he's still having a really good season and it's, it's amazing to me. I mean one of the great things on a slot has done is, is take away so much of the noise around those situations. And to be fair, Liverpool as a club they're clearly struggling to get those deals done. And we've seen in the past clubs almost turn on the players. Well not almost turn on, totally turn on the players, brief against their players, make an example of them, shame them for not having agreed a contract, put all these stories out about how they're been offered the best deal in the club's history. And I think it's to Liverpool's credit as a club that they've not gone down that road at all. They've said everything's going to be done privately. When we've got something to announce, we'll announce it. And often as a journalist you think well no, we're going to find this out a lot earlier than you want to. But in this situation they have really kept a lid on it and it's led to that sort of confusion as to where things are going. Is one of them going to go? Is two of them going to go? Could all three of them go? I think most people expect Van Dijk to stay and Alexandre Arnold they're probably less optimistic and Salah maybe somewhere in the middle but I think Arne Slott has just created a thing and the players have created a thing where it's almost like we'll enjoy the ride this season and, and let's try and win this Premier League and think about, I mean those conversations are obviously all going on in the background but slot can't particularly affect those conversations. If, if there's a Jane, if there's a danger that Salah leaves at the end of the season with a Premier League winners medal, potentially with a, with a Champions League medal, potentially with Carabao cup medal. I mean that, that would be a, a great way to go I think, I think most Liverpool fans would have accepted that as a, as a, a glorious ending when, when he signed his last three year contract in, in 2022. But I think when they see him still performing at this level at this age, I think they don't want him to be elsewhere next year. They could probably see that there's a likelihood that performance will drop off over the next year. Two years, three years. Maybe this is his last performance at you know, this incredibly high level. But, but they still wouldn't Want him to be anywhere else next season, would they?
- [37:37]
Ayo Akinwale
Well that's the thing Simon. I mean I also think there's a very reasonable reality where Salah wins the Premier League and the Champions League with Liverpool this season in such great form and goes, you know what, there's nothing, I don't know if I'll ever replicate this again. I mean it's such a great season for him. Would you begrudge him for just saying look, if Liverpool do so well this season, right, that's it. Club legend. I don't care what happens but I've done all I need to do. I want something else.
- [38:02]
Simon Hughes
I think there's a bit of brinksmanship going on really at the moment between the players side and the club because obviously the player knows that he's the main man at Liverpool. You know, you've reeled off all the stats in the podcast, haven't we? You know, Liverpool on the face of it can't really be without him at the moment. You know, like who else scores all those goals? Certainly if they were to try and replace him it's going to cost the club a lot of money financially really. Unless the scouting department is you know, way ahead of everybody else and just knows that somebody is going to come in from like Salah did. I suppose he did do it once, albeit, you know, the scout who really pushed for Salah is no longer with the club. Dave Fallows. Meanwhile I think the club knows really there's only a very narrow marker for the player because of his age. The reality is it can't compete with Saudi Arabia if that as it seems, you know, going to offer the player an exorbitant amount of money. I don't really actually think it's, it's about money as such. I just think from Salah's perspective, you know, he wants the mark of value for a top player in Europe, not in the south, not in the Saudi league if that makes sense. I think what's maybe complicated things a little bit over the last couple of months is Erling Haaland contract at Manchester City. Now obviously Mohamed Salah isn't looking for a 10 year contract and as you know I, I wrote the story in December about it's not actually about the length of terms, it's just about the amount of money that he's going to get paid by Liverpool. So I think that if he were to be given a contract which shows that he is still considered one of the best players in the Premier League and the world and is still an important Player at Liverpool. That's what he's looking for basically that sort of contract. Not the sort of contract which, which sends him backwards. So yeah there's, there's quite a lot of context to it. I mean I, I think, think instinctively, I mean he's made it clear. I think he does want to stay. I don't think he's, I don't think he's playing a game there. I mean it's quite unusual to see this from Liverpool because Liverpool has been so used to the top players leaving. You know we spoke about Suarez earlier. Liverpool desperate for him to say they couldn't keep him. Casino. Now you've got a player. I think he knows that Liverpool is right for him. You know that the environment there is right. I think there is a possibility that he, if he went elsewhere he might not be quite as effective. You know he knows it as well that Saudi Arabia, you know, okay, it's got all the money but it's still a developing country in terms of its football infrastructure. You know the, the. I just don't think it's shooting for all sorts of different reasons. But the bottom line is if Liverpool can't match what his estimation of himself is then there might be, you know there is going to be a problem.
- [40:48]
Ayo Akinwale
But Oli, this is, this is an interesting one though isn't it? Because it's quite precarious situation I think you know you look at it from Salah side. He wants his value and he wants his worth. But if he leaves Liverpool there's not many teams in the world other than Saudi that can afford that kind of money. But also I know you mentioned it at the top and it got me thinking as well. I mean you really have to look at Kevin De Bruyne yesterday to see that you know the guy from the season before at a particular age isn't going to be the guy you're going to get the season after necessarily. And I know De Bruyne has had a major injury but he just hasn't looked the same kind of guy.
- [41:20]
Oli Kay
Yeah. And is he one year older? Yeah, I think he's one year older. I think De Bruyne's the same age as van Dijk. But De Bruyne as he plays a position where you're constantly, you know those high intensity sprints up and down, up and down. It's not, it's not just Salah sprinting down the wing with the ball. The position that De Bruyne plays takes even more out of players physically. He's had a Lot of injuries the last few years. I didn't enjoy watching him yesterday. I absolutely love him as a player, but it was sort of sad to see him so far diminished really. And look, he will still have moments this season where you think, look, that's Kevin de Bruyne. But it feels like he's gone from being their go to guy in every game to being somebody who might come good maybe once a week, maybe not back to back games to somebody who's probably. You're looking for moments now over the course of a season. And City's reliance on him has increased at a time when, when he and others have diminished physically. It's a real shame from Man City's point of view and from his point of view. And you would struggle to make a really strong case for them keeping him next season unless it was to be at a reduced wage. And I love him as a player, but I see him as somebody who is in that decline. And look, it can come, and it does come with every player. In the end we see somebody like Cristiano Ronaldo and you say, well, look, he's ageless, look, his numbers are still incredible. But. But he's not the player he was. You know, he's 40 now. Of course, he's not the same player he was at 32, 33. Messi slowed down in some ways, remained incredibly effective. But. But they've gone to different leagues. And this is two of the greatest players of all time. Not just their generation, but two of the greatest players of all time. So I think we're being conditioned to think that players can go on forever. But they will all hit. Even van Dijk, who's been incredible this season. There will come a point where strikers are going past him a lot more easily than they used to. And maybe he'll only be able to play one, start one game a week rather than starting every game. Maybe it'll become the same with Salah. And so there are difficult calculations to make for Liverpool. And we don't know this and as I said, it's the club's credit that we don't know this, but if they're asking for the same money over three years, I think that's hard to. It's hard to justify that in some ways. Although you get fans saying, just give them what they want, they're incredible. Give them what they want. What a player's value is at the age of 32 coming up to 33 might not be their value at the age of 34 coming up to 35 so I think Liverpool's best hope if they were to give Salah a big contract would be to be just ready, I think, to spot those signs when they eventually come and perhaps to try to ensure that either his wages are coming down further down the contract or that there's a means by which they might sell him later in the contract. It's, it's historically we've seen players accept lower wages when they get to this age and it's hard. You can't really make a case for that when you've seen Salah, the best, most devastating forward in, in Europe at the age of 32, Van Dijk arguably still the best defense central defender in the world at 33. But that decline will come and Liverpool have got to probably try to manage that in terms of the, the financial challenges and, and it's not, it's not very easy, it's probably not very easy to persuade players or their agents that that kind of compromise needs to be made when they're performing at such a high level.
- [45:04]
Ayo Akinwale
All right, Simon, Ollie, thank you so much for your time. If you want more from Simon, remember to check out his biography of Mohamed Salah, Chasing Salah. And also he's over on our dedicated Liverpool podcast, Walk on, which will be with you on Tuesday morning. Thank you so much for listening. We are back tomorrow.
- [45:20]
Simon Hughes
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast.
- [45:22]
Oli Kay
The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavrou and Jay Beale. The executive producer was Aidy Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
- [45:41]
Ayo Akinwale
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.