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- [00:00]
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- [00:57]
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- [01:22]
Matt
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- [02:10]
Ayo Akamolere
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, IO Akim O Leri. The Champions League phase is over after a pulsating final night. Five of the top eight sides are Premier League teams. But what else did we learn from the league phase? All right, in with us today we've got Seb Stafford Bloor. We've also got Jack Lang as well. All right, Gentlemen, it was a night full of twists and turns in the champions league with 61 goals scored. The most dramatic of them coming right at the end.
- [02:44]
Jack Lang
Orness hangs it up. Let the goalkeeper there. Oh, my goodness gracious me. This is unbelievable. A diving header from Dubin.
- [02:54]
Ayo Akamolere
Well, Jack, let's start with the game. You were working across the Athletic 4. Benfica coming up with a historic win over Real Madrid. Jose Mourinho getting one over his old side. The old master still has some tricks up his sleeve, doesn't he?
- [03:09]
Jack Lang
Seems to, yeah. I mean, I'm not quite sure how much of it was within his control. It was one of those games that followed its own path, really. It was a weird one because the dynamic of it moves in such a slow way for most of it, you know, Benfica were fantastic, actually. They could have scored 3, 4, 5 goals before the hour mark. And as the match ebbed away, you know, Madrid were still in the top eight. Benfica were kind of in, kind of out. And there was. The pattern of the game was really set. And then it changed a couple of weird ways, like Madrid got bumped out of the top eight and they suddenly started panicking. Benfica thought they were through when they weren't. So they were kind of playing inappropriate football for the last 20 minutes. Like Mourinho was bringing on defensive midfielders, didn't seem to realize that the goal differ was not favoring them. And then obviously Madrid start playing Benfico, pretty happy with the result as it stands. And then finally the message gets across and there is a kind of a last. The panic really, of sending the goalkeeper forward was only really the last two or three minutes of injury time, because until then, Mourinho didn't seem to quite clock that this team were going out. So it was a. I would probably be slightly reluctant to call it a. A Mourinho masterclass, but certainly the team, the team played really, really well. So as a performance, I give him full credit. But it was a night that could easily have got away from him and very almost did.
- [04:37]
Ayo Akamolere
Yeah. Do you know what? After the match, I basically went down a wormhole of goalkeepers scoring. Trubin's goal was beautiful, actually. And I went back to sort of Premier League heritage tits. I was looking at Peter Schema, Aston Villa, in the box scoring a goal. A nice little kick at the edge of the box. And I look at, I think it was Tim Howard scores from his side of the pitch. Big kick over and it obviously goes in the other side. I just thought, like, which do you think Is most satisfying for a goalkeeper to get one in on the box or to actually score it from your side of the field, gents.
- [05:05]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Oh, box, definitely, definitely box. Because like I always think when you score from like a goal kick which has caught the wind or taken a massive bounce off the pitch, I think that's just a bit of a freak. This was just like I remember looking at it thinking if Les Ferdinand had scored that, that's a really great finish. And then fair play to him. He also celebrated like he'd been there before, like nice calm knee slide but a composure look cool. It looked like a 10 goal of season. Attacking midfielder. It's a brilliant finish.
- [05:32]
Ayo Akamolere
What do you reckon, Jack?
- [05:33]
Jack Lang
I'm going to tell you, there's middle ground there. There's. It's not just freak goal kicks and five yard headers. The world of the South American goalkeeper. I mean check out Hosieri Oseni, you know, probably scored 40 odd free kicks for Sao Paulo. Jose Luis Shilovet banging. He scored a free kick from the halfway line and believe you me, that was intentional. So I like a little bit of dead ball mastery from my goalkeeper actually. But you know, you stick to your two yard headers, mate. All good.
- [06:05]
Ayo Akamolere
All right, let's move to Real Madrid. Seb, look, Real Madrid dropping out the top eight as a result of the defeat at Benfico. Now we shared your lack of conviction in their quality in depth, but I mean Real Madrid now I would say two seasons running have been really relatively disappointing in the Championship Champions League. Don't you think, Seb?
- [06:23]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Yeah, they have, but I, I'm really wary because how, how long have we been speaking about Real Madrid in these terms where they sort of walk through the group stages in this sort of zombie like state, seem kind of indifferent to losses. Of course the modern format means that the jeopardy has been reduced so they can afford to lose a home to Manchester City for instance. And then when it comes down to it, even when they don't necessarily play well in the knockout stages, they find a way through. And I, I say that was probably the case the last time they won the European Cup. Certainly in that, in that final against Britt Dortmund hour they were second best, could have been two goals down, somehow ended up on the top of the pile at the end of it. So I'm not concerned. I'm also, there wasn't a lot of drama beyond this game and I remember looking at the pool of teams that have qualified for the playoff stage now it's an absolute shocker if you were a small team and you snuck into the playoff round and you thought that's a pretty good result. Or if you were one of the bigger teams and you see it as a kind of a safety net and all of a sudden your game finishes and be like, yeah, well, I've got a playoff probably against Galatasara and all of a sudden it's no, no, no, you're going to go and play Real Madrid. It's a shocker. Absolutely shocker. I'm not at the point where I'm concerned. I'm also. I saw parts of the game last night and clearly I don't know if that would agree, but it seems if Real Madrid were firmly in third gear and in that kind of strange mood that Real Madrid have where it seems like they can't quite be bothered. So I'm sure as and when that changes, they'll probably be fine and a force to be reckoned with.
- [07:50]
Jack Lang
Yeah, don't disagree with that. It was apathetic, I think at best from them. They rarely had a good attack. I mean there were kind of little flashes. Mbappe's finishing kept them in it really. And Benfica's wastefulness. But honestly, a 4 1/2 time scoreline would not have been out of place. Worth noting that they are still missing a lot of defenders, but their play in attack was just listless and defensively they were really poor. I mean Raul Licencio was absolutely all over the place. Alvaro Carreras, the left back was just not there for a lot of it. Like Benfica were just kind of swarming forward. It wasn't kind of. You may expect in that situation, Benfica kind of to huff and puff and maybe not land any blows. But Real Madrid committed enough men half heartedly forward that they kept getting caught. Like four on three, five on four. I guess that's how maths work. And yeah, just they were just not at it at all. And I think the frustration was shown in the kind of the two red cards. And Arboloa didn't look best pleased after the match either.
- [08:59]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Jack, a full time, maybe I missed some context, but a lot of the Real Madrid players surrounded the referee after because the full time whistle went pretty much instantly after the goal. Was that about the goal or was that some sort of legacy grumble?
- [09:13]
Jack Lang
No, I think it was. I think it was about the goal. Bellingham, my amateur lip reading suggested that Bellingham thought there was a foul. I don't think there was, but I think there is that slight confusion when a final whistle goes right after the goal goes in. When normally there would be some kind of var check. I don't actually know how that works. If there is scope to actually, we've going to restart here and take that one off. But there was no foul, in my opinion. It was kind of just embarrassment, probably bubbling over into dissent.
- [09:44]
Ayo Akamolere
Can we just talk about Mourinho very quickly? You said it was anything but a Mourinho masterclass, but Benfica are now into, what, the knockout stages? Is there enough in his box of tricks to try and get this one over the line, Jack?
- [09:55]
Jack Lang
Get it over the line, as in, like, go further in the competition to the next phase?
- [09:59]
Ayo Akamolere
Yeah, go further.
- [10:00]
Jack Lang
They're not winning it.
- [10:01]
Ayo Akamolere
Look, Benfica aren't winning this.
- [10:04]
Jack Lang
I would be surprised. It's not a good Benfica team. There are a few mitigating circumstances they've got. They had a few absences as injuries and suspensions, but they're third in the Portuguese league, 10 points off the top. That's gone. They're out of both domestic cups. Benfica is one of those clubs that is just a constant psychodrama. I think we probably in Britain, maybe in the States, we underestimate how cutthroat Portuguese football is. Portuguese football is one of the most hardcore football cultures in terms of, like, the demands placed on these clubs and the scrutiny they've got. You know, it's a tiny country and they've got three, four dedicated sports papers. All of the big clubs are under massive pressure constantly, and Benfica are in a kind of not far off crisis mode at the moment. There have been fans protesting recent results kind of showing up at the training ground. Rui Costa, the president, is under a lot of pressure, so I. It looks to me like a kind of a brief moment for them to breathe and relax slightly in the glory of the moment. But I don't imagine that they're going to do much in the rest of the competition. And I'm sure by the end of the season, the recriminations will be back, despite last night's action.
- [11:27]
Ayo Akamolere
All right, quick one, guys. You like listening to us, but we want to hear from you this time. We're asking you to fill a quick survey out about your podcast habits by going to theathletic.com or survey26. Three lucky entries will win $100 or pounds worth of Amazon vouchers as well. So whether you're a longtime listener or a new one, we want your feedback. Go to theathletic.com survey26. That's theathletic.com survey 26. The link is Also in our episode Description Appreciate your time.
- [12:05]
TurboTax Advertiser
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- [13:03]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
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- [13:34]
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- [14:09]
Jack Lang
Good ball back to J. Pedro Garnacho's with him might not need him. Looks to go alone and did brilliantly. Oh what a performance in this second half. Good Xiao Pedro.
- [14:22]
Ayo Akamolere
One of the big results on the night saw Chelsea win in Naples, sending Liam Rossini's side into the top eight, eliminating Napoli in the process. I wonder if this is an opportunity to talk about Antonio Conte's European record. Jack it's very surprising not to see the Italian champions make it to the next phase of the Champions League.
- [14:40]
Jack Lang
Yeah, I think so. I mean, with Conte, our colleague James Horncastle has repeatedly mounted a defense of him, saying that he often takes over teams who are a long way off that level and gets either. Gets them into the Champions League or brings their level up, even if they're not natural contenders. I mean, Inter is probably the. The obvious counter example to that, but at the other clubs he's taken over, I mean, Napoli, to take this example, were not in any position to challenge for the Italian League before he took over. He's turned them into that. He's turned them into a team that is in the Champions League regularly. And would you expect them to do better? Yes, probably. They've definitely disappointed this season, but they're. They've probably got more injuries than or. And more significant injuries than most teams in Europe. You know, Lukaku obviously has been missing for months. Kevin de Bruyne hasn't played since October, I don't think. And even then, kind of. Some of the signings they've added to the squad have not really cut it since the summer. So certainly, yeah, like a massive disappointment. Not just to kind of. They didn't miss out on it by a whisker either. I think they, like down in 30th, below, you know, Paphos, Union, St. Jouloise, they would be expecting more than that. And I think Conte will probably be perhaps happy to be able to focus on the league because their league campaign has also been slightly disrupted by absences. At least they now have a. Have a sole focus and maybe can mount a better defence of Serie A.
- [16:06]
Ayo Akamolere
Seb, are there just some managers that just can't cut it in the Champions League? I mean, frustratingly, I think both juvent interiors who Conte coached reached the Champions League finals within two seasons of him departing. Compare him to people like Allegri, Pep Guardiola, Jose Mourinho, Ancelotti, for instance. The hierarchy of managers. They've done really well in this competition, whereas he hasn't necessarily.
- [16:29]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Yeah, it's a difficult one. Also, you'd look at someone like Unai Emery, who developed a reputation as being a kind of a master of European competition. I'm probably not smart enough to understand what it is, but I don't think I believe in the idea of someone who can't cut it. I think there are managers who are at handling the resources and at the kind of the tension that exists between balancing a League campaign and preparing for European competition. I think there are different coaches who apply different priorities to it. I also think we exist in this really strange world where because of the inequities in European football, your ability to compete in European football really depends on where you're coaching, how you can preserve your resources. For instance, like if you're a head coach who utilizes a system which depends on wing backs, for instance, I think that's a lot easier if you're managing in the Premier League and you can afford to have four wing backs all fresh, all playing one game a week, rather than necessarily, I don't know, for instance, if you were. It's just an example. It's not really with reference to Antonio Conte. If you were coaching in Italy and you have two first choice players and maybe half an option either side. So I think there's all sorts of factors here and I don't necessarily think it's really fair to, to compare coaches over what is such a really uneven playing field.
- [17:44]
Ayo Akamolere
Fair enough. I just want to take a little moment to have a little shout out for Antonio Vergara. I don't know if you saw his goal. Sure did, gents. I mean, boy from Napoli playing in the Maradona Stadium, scores a goal doing a Maradona turn and then plays it to the side of the keeper. Jack. I mean, it's fairy tale stuff. A little shining light for Napoli at least.
- [18:04]
Jack Lang
Definitely. I mean, there's something, there is something about Napoli, isn't it? There's something about that stadium and those nights. We know it's a city that has experienced a lot of low moments throughout football. And I think that is what makes their pluckiness all the more special. And even, as you say, even on a night when everything is going to absolute insert expletive here, they do come up with a moment. There's a moment, there's an underdog moment like the local kid. And you can be sure that will be woven into whatever legend this kid comes, comes up with it. Napoli, even it, even it becomes nothing at all. They will remember that night. And if he becomes something. Yeah, that is kind of a, a great first chapter in the story.
- [18:48]
Ayo Akamolere
Can we have a chat about Chelsea, one of five Premier League teams straight in to the last 16. I want to touch on, I guess, the specific differences though, Seb, between the competitions between Premier League and also Champions League, for instance. But I wonder what we've learned about the strength and the money of teams in the Premier League versus across Europe. Sebastian?
- [19:09]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
A range of different things. First and foremost, the resources, the ability to keep players fresh, the ability to rotate players in and out of positions, in and out of the side. I think also, if you look at the strength and depth of the average Premier League team, I know, for instance, there's a bad example at the moment, Tottenham are struggling with all sorts of. They only had like 12 fit players for their game against Eintracht Frankfurt. But I think also there's become this tendency among certainly the kind of the elite Premier League clubs to hoover talent, to be kind of the dragnet in the sea of. The sea of footballers. Goodness me, someone cut that. But you know what I'm saying, Like, you don't necessarily go out shopping for the sake of building a first team anymore. They go out to create this big pool of talent which can be used and it can be maintained because you can afford to meet the wage bill in a way that European teams can't. And that certainly shows during continental competition. The other thing, and I don't think this is a particularly original point, but when I've been to games, particularly in person, in the Champions League this season and actually probably going back a few seasons now, I've been struck by the physical gap. There is a technical advantage that the Premier League clubs enjoy, but I also think the conditioning. And you see this a little bit when players move into the Premier League and move it, move to England from. From elsewhere. Typically, the first thing that happens in the initial six months after they move is they go and put on five kilos of weight, because I have to. Now, I think what's been interesting is if you see even Premier League teams who are not playing well or who are a little bit average relative to the rest of the Premier League, where they come to face even good European sides, you can see that physical advantage paying off and European sides really struggling to deal with it. I covered the Tottenham game against Brisset Dortmund and was struck in the first sort of 20 minutes, half an hour by how, for instance, Dortmund couldn't cope with Tottenham's press. Now, when was the last time anyone said that about Tottenham? Right. Tottenham are a really poor side at the moment. Dortmund in the context of German football, second in the Bundesliga, clearly, and by some distance, the second best team in Germany at the moment. And yet they just looked like. It almost looked like a senior team playing against an under 23 side at times, just because of the gap. And I think that's the big thing. I think that's the big talking point. There's all sorts of factors that channel into that and create that physical advantage. But I think that's the most visible part of it.
- [21:29]
Ayo Akamolere
Yeah, I guess there's something in there in terms of the profile of the players, Jack. You know, even if we go back to Napoli, I mean, they're getting a Kevin de Bruyne at the latter part of his career. He might still be able to do the job, but, you know, he's still not the de Bruyne of the glory days of Manchester City, for instance. And you flip to a team like Arsenal who are able to sort of rotate when they can because they've had that money, they've had that injection of cash. It is massively a disadvantage considering all these leagues, even the top leagues in Europe, don't have that kind of cash.
- [21:58]
Jack Lang
Absolutely. And you see the kind of excitement that a move like de Bruyne generates. And Premier League fans, we kind of shrug at it. Like, you know, he has been one of the best midfielders. Is he anymore? Not really. He's a guy who's entering the twilight of his career. It's quite interesting. I, throughout my career followed Brazilian football quite a lot. And that was always the pattern of. You'd get 17, 18 year olds playing brilliantly and then leaving before they'd played 50 matches. And you'd get the kind of. The bigger names would come when they were 33, 34. I don't think we're quite there with European football, but the stratification is heading in that direction. I mean, you look at the squad of even the teams that have qualified for the playoffs. I'm not even talking about those that have missed out. You look at, I don't know, a Monaco. Monaco haven't got a great squad. Monaco's kind of best players are players that haven't quite made it in the Premier League or Premier League. Clubs don't think they can make it. That is, unfortunately, that sounds incredibly patronizing, but the structure of football now, that is implicit in it. The Premier League is the big destination and the middle class of teams, I think this is the sad point. The middle class of teams can only sign those really exceptional players in very strange circumstances either. I was thinking this week about Endrick at Lyon. I mean, that's the kind of signing that used to happen quite a lot. And it's only really happened on this occasion because circumstances have conspired to force him out of Madrid and to a team where he knows he will play every week. You know, if there wasn't a World cup around the corner, maybe he would have gone Somewhere else and been a slightly more rotation option. But 15, 20 years ago, Lyon had world class players, maybe only one or two. Porto had world class players, again maybe only one or two. Today you look around that kind of second tier of European football and the cupboards are quite bare. And it's, you know, for us watching Premier League football week in, week out, we can enjoy it to some extent, but something has been lost.
- [24:08]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
I think it's a really good point and it's also quite sad to watch how, and I'm not criticizing clubs for doing this, but there are so many clubs around Europe now who they target development phase players because they see their role as a seller to the Premier League. They're either chasing great talent or either dumb English money. And that's completely inevitable and it is the right strategy to employ, of course. But if you go back to, and Jack mentioned some of the teams that I think we all kind of grew up watching from Europe, I can remember that Lyon team and having to go there was always a nightmare. Sporting Lisbon, sorry, Sporting Club de Lisbon, the Portugal even. But the spread and ratioing of talent and mid career talent across the content was just far greater now. And I also think it's one of those talks about physical gaps. If you're playing against teams who are either selecting players who aren't quite good enough to play in the Premier League or who are perhaps two or three years away from developing the abilities or consistencies to earn a transfer there, of course you're going to see a disparity.
- [25:10]
Ayo Akamolere
So true in terms of that physicality. Is that why you think Liverpool basically did well in the, in the Champions League? Seb, you mentioned obviously spurs, but I mean look at Karabak Navis who smashed him. Definitely a mismatch in general, but it's allowed Liverpool, even a weaker team in the Premier League right now to actually feel like a much more solid team in the, in the Champions League.
- [25:32]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Yeah, I wonder. I might be completely wrong with this, but I, I'm not sure how bad Liverpool are. I think they're not what they were and there's clearly been a drop off and they, they are not the aggregate of their individual parts. I accept that. But also I think some of their deficiencies are exaggerated by for instance, an Arsenal team who are unbelievably good defensively, who are very, very secure. And I think, I think when you see some of these teams in Europe, you see them really for what they are rather than kind of what, what the big pantomime of the Premier League. Says that they are. I don't know if that's fair. I don't cover Premier League football, but that's always the impression that I get. I think Liverpool are a flawed team. They've got issues. They've got some sort of obvious balance problems and some individual players playing within themselves. I don't think they're a catastrophe in the sort of the. I don't think they're a hopeless case. So I don't look at it as a situation where, oh my God, they've hammered Karabag. Actually, maybe they're pretty good. It feels like we live in a slightly altered reality in English football.
- [26:34]
Ayo Akamolere
Okay, well, Newcastle were the only Premier League side not to make the top eight. Watching on in Paris as they drew with PSG the Athletics. Judd Culkin, here's what you had to say.
- [26:44]
Judd Culkin
Ultimately, that has to go down as a great performance and really good result for Newcastle against the European Champions. Ultimately, it didn't do them much good. It didn't do PSG much good either because both teams dropped out of the top eight. Which means that they now face a playoff match to get into the last 16. And Newcastle will be playing either Carabag or Monaco. But I think Eddie Howe's team and squad answered a few questions last night. They conceded a desperately early penalty, which was saved. They then conceded an early goal. And at that point you wondered what it was they were trying to do. But there was a very interesting tactical setup where they did play with three center halves. Dan Byrne was magnificent, by the way, but also were pushing PSG very high up the pitch, trying to take advantage of that high line. And the longer the game went on, the more they came into it, the more confident they were. They got an equalizer just before half time through Joe Willock. And as the game went on, the more composed and coherent their performance was. Now, it's been a really tough season. It's been a difficult season. They've been stretched on the forefronts. They're trying to find a new way of playing without Alexander Isak and with very different forward players. But if you were Eddie Howe now, you would be saying to your players, okay, you've just shown against the champions of Europe that you can cause them problems, that you can get in amongst them, that you can score goals now go to the champions of England and do it. And of course they have to do that. They're ninth in the Premier League. If they want to get back into the Champions League, which they're beginning to feel is a natural home for them. They have to improve in domestic football.
- [28:31]
Ayo Akamolere
It's interesting because Anthony Gordon, Jack basically spoke about how different it was to play in the Champions League compared to the Premier League. And it's sort of harking back to what Seb was saying, that it's like Liverpool are an okay team with faults, but actually when you come to the Champions League and teams actually want to play football in quotation marks, it's much easier to express yourself. It's much easier to see what the value of the team is in that competition versus perhaps the Premier League where you're always hitting low blocks or whatever.
- [28:59]
Jack Lang
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the only thing about Anthony Gordon's quote that I found a bit odd was him saying that the Premier League is like basketball. I would have thought it was the opposite, like the end to end nature of it. But I take the overall sweep of his point, which is that. But the Premier League, because of that physicality. We've talked endlessly about the throw ins and the dead bulls and all of this, and I don't think every team is like that by any means. But there has been certainly a kind of a mass, you know, levelling up. A rising tide lifts all boats, as they say. And I suppose Arsenal, Arsenal's dead ball prowess over the last two, three seasons has clearly led to an overall increase in emphasis on those things. And yeah, look, the average goals per game in the Champions league this season, 3.39. And the Premier League is like 2.7 something so nearly essentially a goal every other game more in the Champions League. And I think there is still a kind of, in a way that favors the Premier League teams really, that there is still a diversity of quality and approaches in Europe. And still I think, you know, there was a period when Europe was for, you know, a decade or more, like back in the 90s, Europe was terrifying for Premier League teams. And then we kind of completely worked it out and now you just have to look at the table and it is quite straightforward for the Premier League teams. So there is that. There's no reason that Premier League teams would embrace a more open style of play necessarily, except for the fact that they hold an advantage, whatever style of game is being played. I think, I mean, for me as an observer, I. I have enjoyed Champions League games more this season than I have the Premier League. The Premier League's like, can't remember what they're called. Rock Em Sock Em, maybe like those kind of plastic boxing games and you've got two like big plastic dudes, like.
- [30:54]
Ayo Akamolere
And then the head comes off and then the head flips up.
- [30:58]
Jack Lang
Two kind of like muscular but slightly unbending figures like whacking each other forever. So like Brentford v Arsenal, both very good football teams at their respective levels. And Arsenal are the best team in Europe objectively at this point, but they are not always the most attractive to watch. They have been in the past. But yeah, European football with it's slight, slightly less control, slightly more room for, to be honest, probably slightly worse defending. And yeah, it does make for. It has certainly this season made for some really exciting clashes. And I've probably bored you with my hatred of this format on more than one occasion, but actually yesterday it did make sense.
- [31:44]
Ayo Akamolere
60 odd goals, check. You can't argue. I mean, that's what they want, isn't it?
- [31:47]
Jack Lang
This is the thing about football. Like no matter what shapes people twist it into, there's a great match and everything. Ah, then that's fine. And that's like essentially why we can't have nice things. Ugh.
- [32:04]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Could this vintage store be any cuter?
- [32:06]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Right?
- [32:07]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
And the best part? They accept disc. Accept Discover in a little place like this?
- [32:12]
Jack Lang
I don't think so. Jennifer.
- [32:13]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Oh yeah, huh?
- [32:14]
Jack Lang
Discover's accepted where I like to shop. Come on baby, get with the times.
- [32:19]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Right, so we shouldn't get the parachute pants.
- [32:22]
Jack Lang
These are making a comeback, I think.
- [32:26]
Ayo Akamolere
Discover is accepted at 99 of places that take credit cards nationwide.
- [32:31]
TurboTax Advertiser
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- [32:33]
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- [32:55]
Jack Lang
Amazon One Medical presents painful thoughts.
- [33:00]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
I've been on hold to make a doctor's appointment for 23 minutes now. The automated voice has told me 47 times that my call is very important to them. Hmm, I'm starting to think that they don't think my call is important at all.
- [33:15]
Jack Lang
With Amazon One Medical 24.
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Seb Stafford-Bloor
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Jack Lang
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- [33:31]
Podcast Narrator
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akamolere.
- [33:35]
Ayo Akamolere
Right, let's move on because ahead of Wednesday night's game, Arsenal and Bayern Munich, who finished first and second, were the only two sides certain of finishing in the top eight. Jack, you spoke about Arsenal already the only side to win all Eight matches. I mean, what do you think of them as main contenders? Because let's not forget they were actually very great contenders last season in the Champions League as well and came faulted in the semifinals.
- [34:00]
Jack Lang
Yeah, I mean, they just, they're just a supremely competent side. I watch them. And for all that they've wobbled in the Premier League in the last few weeks, I think in Europe you just, if you're an opposition team coming up against them, you would just be tearing your hair out, I think, because they've just, they're just so well drilled. They've got so many options in every position. And I think the good thing about their squad is that they have options that slightly change the dynamics. So, you know, they're not just kind of like, for like players in every position. You've got slight variations. You know, when Jocherez plays up front, Havertz plays up front, Marino plays up front, Gabriel Jesus plays up front. Those are all slightly different ways of playing. So I think as a playing squad, it's one of the best squads that I've ever seen in European football. Frankly. I think the question for them is whether the pressure of Premier League football. I don't think it's unfair to say that there is a psychological element to them getting over the line in the Premier League or otherwise. I wonder whether that will kind of eventually break up their tranquility in Europe, because they've completely worry free in Europe so far and it would be great for them if they could keep that Europe as kind of their happy place. Well, even when the Premier League is difficult, but one thing tends to bleed into another. So I think eventually fighting on both fronts will present its own kind of challenge. But so far you cannot fault them. They've been amazing.
- [35:32]
Ayo Akamolere
On the flip side, Bayern, Seb, I feel, look attractive in the Champions League and look attractive in the Bundesliga as well. Obviously, Arsenal, the only team to beat them in the Champions League. I mean, what do you make of their progress this season in the Champions League? And can we say they are contenders to lift the Cup?
- [35:48]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Yeah, of course. I would say that they're comfortably the second best team in Europe. I think if you look at that game they played in Paris, the Parc de Parons against psg. They handle psg. And were it not for Luis Diaz's red card, I think that could have been a really flattering score. They were absolutely excellent that night. Their pressure was great. The big thing with Bayern that's been exposed in recent years has been the inability to apply frontline Pressure and that's been fixed during Vincent Kompany's tenure. And also last night. I know Bayern already through and there was no jeopardy, but it's very significant to see Jamal Maziala make his first start since that terrible ankle injury he suffered against PSG back in the club World Cup. They've also brought Alphonso Davis back slowly from injury he suffered. I think it was an injury in March 2025, February 2025. He's been playing a little bit since prior to the winter pauser. And so they are, of course, they're a contender. Look at their form, look at the players they're able to call upon. I think the only thing, I mean, if you were to draw a direct comparison between them and Arsenal, I think there's much more variation in the Arsenal team. I think with Bayern, yes, they have strength and depth. Do they have the ability to change the way they play? I would say no. And particularly in midfield, I think there's a clear first choice. I think there's Kimmich Pavlovic. Maybe you can put Goretzka in there for a bit more muscularity, physicality, sort of box to box. But I think what you see is what you get. The interesting thing IU is through the first probably five months of the season and people have admired Vine's attacking play most of all. A lot of that fluidity has depended upon continuity and selection. So although companies introduce Leonard Kahl here and there, it's generally been Kane, Elise, Diaz, gnabry as that 4. And the chemistry between them has turned them into a really attractive side, really dangerous side, creating chances all sorts of ways. Now, it's a good problem to have, but Jamal Masjada is their best player. For my money, he's the best German footballer of the current generation. You have to introduce him into that. But by doing so, you're kind of changing the way that group plays because Masiala is. How do you balance the way Masiala likes to drop with this tendency that's been built into Harry Kane's game? For instance, how do you replicate the dynamism that Serge Gnabry has provided through the middle of the pitch and the outlet that he offers to, for instance, Josue Kimmich's direct long range passing? How do you weave that in whilst retaining so many of the things which have brought them to this point? It's going to be really interesting to find out, but it's a. I think sometimes there's a tendency to think, hey, we've got this really great player and you kind of assess him in football manager terms. He's got all sorts of 20 rated attributes drop into the team. Team gun's better. It's not that simple. So I think it's a great task. But yeah, they're a contender. And I would have loved to have seen. I remember the game before Christmas when Bayern lost to Arsenal. I'd have loved to have seen that game again with Alphonso Davis and Jamal Murciala playing at their very best and their fittest. I think Arsenal still win, I think Arsenal's still stronger, but I think there's all sorts of interesting dynamics that are unlocked even when those two players in the team. So yeah, they're a contender. The Bundesliga is probably done. They've got an eight point advantage at the top of it at the moment back to Dortmund, so they can kind of. And I think maybe this is where there is an advantage. Like Jack talked about the psychological aspect for Arsenal and I think if you were to ask an Arsenal fan, what would you prefer to win, I think probably the Premier League at the moment, just because it's been such a long time. Whereas Bayern have kind of got that done. So let's see, let's see. But it's really interesting. Certainly a contender.
- [39:27]
Ayo Akamolere
Quick shout out to Michael Elise as well. Seb, I know we've spoken about him before, so much around saying potentially the best winger in Europe, dare I say the world right now. What do you make of his progress under the company in particular?
- [39:40]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Remarkable. Remarkable. I think what people underestimate with Bayern Munich, people who don't live in Germany, is how big the club is and how much attention it attracts and how much focus these players are under and how much criticism they potentially face when, you know, Instead of a 9 out of 10 performance, they give a 7 out of 10 performance. It's one of those. Elise comes from a club where the default style is counterattacking, where it's not that it doesn't matter if you don't win, but the repercussions for not winning games is not nearly the same thing. So he's adjusted to the kind of the social aspect of it and the media aspect of it, but he has evolved into, my money, one of the best one on one wingers in the world. I think with Elise, what's interesting about him is that he's not someone that plays with pace and power and not someone that plays just with intricacy and technique. He's someone that plays with all of those things all at the same time and can beat you in all sorts of ways. And there is no higher praise than this in Munich. At times when you watch him, you could be watching Aaron Robben.
- [40:42]
Ayo Akamolere
Oh, wow.
- [40:42]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Okay. It's that thing where you know what a player's gonna do and you still can't stop it. And you know, for instance, there's a fullback. I was speaking to David raum, the ebi leipzig captain and fullback ahead of the game. He was gonna play against Elise. It turns out Elise didn't start. But I spoke to him the week before and said, you're gonna go one on one with this guy. What do you have to do? And one of the main things he said is it's not really a one on one battle because you're not going to win it. You kind of have to. You do your best but you are dependent on one sport from the inside, from infield, from like a covering centre back or a dropping midfielder or something. And at least he's in that territory where I think that's kind of greatness. Where players start saying it's not really one on one. Is it because he's that good, you need to kind of deal with him by committee. I only have good things to say. I mean, I'm so impressed by what he's done. And I think people talk about the bundesliga as a soft option for players. Sure, in some instances. In some ways it is. In other ways it's extremely difficult for players. And he's been brilliant.
- [41:41]
Ayo Akamolere
Before we go, just a little shout out to bodo glimt and also carabag jack who made it into the playoffs. Bodo glimpse of watching a documentary on them online and watching the sustained effort from, you know, the europa league to conference league to now champions league. I mean they've done some amazing work in karabag. I mean that's just fairy tale stuff anyway.
- [42:03]
Jack Lang
Yeah, just the variety is nice to have in the champions league and I think it's Bodo glimps is such a great story because five, six years ago they were kind of this a whisper you heard around Europe, this team in Norway, they're playing such amazing football and there were a couple of long reads around them then and they were kind of picked off slightly. Lost a few of their big players, one of whom Jens better hauge is now back and one of the better players in this season's group stage. And yeah, just the fact that it's in the arctic circle, the fact that you still really haven't heard of many of their players. I can name a few of their former players, but of the current squad it's like Hauger and the striker Hawk and that's probably about it. And yet they're kind of their togetherness and the way they have kind of grown together as a club is really impressive. Karabag I know less about, but just having an Azerbaijani side in the knockout stages is people do lots of different things to football tournaments and they make them bigger and they change the format and in my view make them almost always worse. And yet people can point to like well actually we've broadened the scope of this competition in these ways by this new format and great to have them there. I mean even, you know, Windless Kyrat was a cool story, right?
- [43:28]
Ayo Akamolere
Yeah, I was there. I was at the match yesterday and watching the the Kazakhstani fans literally just grateful to be in the Champions league. It ended 3, 2 and do you know what? It was a trip well done for them because they had an absolute storm and I think this is what the Champions League is really about. All the top echelons of football really all about. And I've got to say Bodo Glint still the only team to give Jose Mourinho his biggest defeat of his coach and career. 61 they beat beat them Roma when Jose Maria is looking after them. I think it was in Europa Conference League. Incredible, incredible scenes. Gents, we'll have to end it there, but appreciate your time as always. Seb, Jack, thanks for joining us and also thank you guys for joining us as well. We'll be back tomorrow with a preview ahead of Manchester City's visit to Spurs.
- [44:14]
Podcast Narrator
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroo and Jay Beal, with editing by Paul Iliff and Nick Thompson. The executive producer is A.D. moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows. Search for the Athletic wherever you get your podcasts. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe the Athletic FC Podcast is an Athletic Media Company production.
- [44:53]
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