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- [00:01]
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- [02:04]
Ayo Akimolere
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. For all the talk of Premier League dominance in Europe, no English sides won in this week's Champions League. So ahead of the second leg next week, is this just a blip or a rude awakening? All right, in with us today, we've got a Chelsea correspondent, Liam Toomey in Paris, Arsenal writer James McNicholas, who will join us later from Leverkusen. And also we'll hear from our Manchester City correspondent, Sam Lee, as well all right, let's start in Paris. A rematch, Liam, of the summer's Club World cup final. Talk to me about that match, because from a neutral perspective, it was an absolute spectacle to witness.
- [02:49]
Liam Toomey
Yeah, it was a really fun game and for 74 minutes, a very even one. PSG clearly went into it feeling like they had a point to prove. After the Club World cup final, they approached it with a different level of intensity, different level of seriousness, even from the group stage of the Champions League. And Chelsea, I think, raised their game too. They played really well for the bulk of the game, which I think makes the frustration at the way they collapsed in the final stretch even more acute.
- [03:20]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, I can hear you're still at the airport, so appreciate you joining us for this. Can we just talk about the keepers as well? Obviously we've had Kinski in the Tottenham match in the Champions League already on this podcast. A change in the net for Chelsea as well. No Sanchez, but what did you make of the keeper's performances yesterday?
- [03:39]
Liam Toomey
Yeah, Philip Jorgensen has been plunged in to the fire at a defining stretch of the season. In that sense, it is quite similar to Antonin Kinski. I will say this was not a Kinski performance, and I say that with compassion for Tottenham's goalkeeper because I think it was just something that was horrible to watch. Obviously against Atletico Madrid, Jorgensen actually played well until suddenly he didn't. It was the dynamic of the game that was set up to be really hard for him. I think about as hard as it can possibly get for a goalkeeper that is being asked to play the ball out with their feet because PSG were pressing ferociously through the middle of the pitch and Chelsea were absolutely determined in a way that they weren't really in the Club World cup final to build out from the back through the middle of the pitch often. And so the way PSG's third goal came about, with Jorgensen's pass being picked off by Bradley Barkela, and in a rapid cascading series of events, the ball ending up at the feet of Vitinha to beautifully lob him into the net. It felt like something that was on the cards all game. Chelsea as a whole were dancing on the jaws of a crocodile, essentially with the way that they were playing. It was a. It was a real high wire act just to escape their own third against psg. The risk reward equation obviously meant that when they did beat that press, they were really dangerous and they caused PSG a lot of problems and they actually created more chances. If you look at the XG than PSG did. But there are mistakes in this Chelsea team, not just with Jorgensen, not just in the goalkeeper position. And PSG punished them absolutely ruthlessly. My match piece ended up being about the fact that Rossinha has essentially muddied the waters of Chelsea's goalkeeping situation at a crucial stage of the season by. By putting Jorgensen in Sanchez's form had undoubtedly dipped. He's not the first Chelsea coach to bench Sanchez either. This is a recurring pattern. The conclusion, really, that's impossible to avoid is that for Chelsea to play this style of football particularly, they just need a better goalkeeper than both of them. And that's not easy because there really aren't many goalkeepers that are genuinely world class with their hands and their feet. And Chelsea haven't found one. Despite spending not insignificant sums on goalkeepers under Bluco. I think they're hoping that Mike Penders is the solution. He won't arrive in time for the second leg against psg, so it cost them dearly in Paris and it will continue to cost them in games against really high level opposition.
- [06:15]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. I don't want to sort of twist the chat around disciplinary issues, but we have to talk about Pedro Neto and the ball boy situation. What did you read into that? And I know he apologized greatly and I think he offered him his shirt at the end of the match as well.
- [06:28]
Liam Toomey
Yeah, I mean, as a reporter, you know that games are going to throw up unexpected things, but I didn't expect to be reminded of Eden Hazard versus the Swansea City ball boy from 13 years ago in the League Cup. It was a bizarre situation. Obviously frustration from Neto. You can see that he pushes the ball boy to get the ball back. What I can say is the ball boy, he could play at the highest level of football with that reaction. The way that he fell to the floor straight into the hoardings, clutching his face in a screaming heap. Elite world class gamesmanship. And it prompted a mass confrontation, as these things always do. Neto, to his credit, didn't look to escalate it further. He looked like he immediately knew that he'd screwed up. And his discipline in particular has been in the spotlight since that silly red card against Arsenal. But I think the officials took a common sense approach and like there wasn't really enough in this. I thought it was probably a yellow. He was lucky to escape without a booking, but they let it go. I think the bigger frustration for Rosinha is that almost immediately from the restart, PSG scored their fifth goal. Chelsea didn't get that moment out of their system, they didn't get their heads back into the game. They pushed forward in crazy numbers, really, given the situation, and just allowed PSG to counter and score a goal. That turns the second leg from a very difficult task to, you'd have to say, a near impossible one.
- [07:53]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. Liam, on Tuesday, we discussed PSG and how they aren't the same team they were last season. Could this be the kickstart to their season, though, much like how they've come to alive in the knockout stages last season?
- [08:06]
Liam Toomey
Yeah, I mean, it was about this time last year that they decided to click up a gear and became the best team in Europe for three months and wipe the floor with everyone. And I think it's too early to say if that will happen again, but they certainly flexed Champions League winning muscles against Chelsea. And maybe you can say that Chelsea were naive and played into their hands to some degree, but I think they really upped it. I watched PSG's tie against Monaco both games, and they were really lucky to escape. They were so sloppy. They had moments of real sloppiness against Chelsea. Bradley Barkler just completely didn't track Malagusto for Chelsea's first goal. Second goal. Nuno Mendes plays. Almost a blind switch of play that Pedro Neto picks off, beats Marquinhos for pace, and picks out Enzo Fernandez to score. And they could have conceded a third. It was a fractional offside that prevented Xiao Pedro from scoring Chelsea's third goal. That would have made it three, three, and maybe a different game. But PSG have so much firepower, and they also have this really coherent identity when they. When they commit to their press and they bring the level of intensity that they did at Parc des Princes, I think roared on by that crowd, massively helped them. They're just really, really difficult to live with. And when. When you can do what they did for 74 minutes, ask the questions that they did of Chelsea defensively, and then, you know, bring on Fariscalia, who's one of the best players in the world and played like it.
- [09:31]
Ayo Akimolere
I mean, his first goal was delightful, wasn't it?
- [09:33]
Liam Toomey
Yeah, the first goal was incredible.
- [09:37]
James McNicholas
Trying to find a route to go,
- [09:39]
Liam Toomey
oh, and didn't he do that? I think he plays like no one else in Europe, but he has an ability to bend games to his will in the way that the best attackers can, and he did it against Chelsea. I think they look like a team even in the loaded half of the Champions League draw that can beat everyone all over again.
- [09:58]
Guy Clark
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Accumulere.
- [10:05]
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- [10:43]
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- [11:21]
Liam Toomey
Played in by Raheem Diaz Again, he didn't get there. My goodness, it's a hat shake. It's the Fe Valverde show in the
- [11:29]
Ayo Akimolere
B as well as Chelsea losing by three goals. Manchester City lost three nil to Real Madrid thanks to Valverde's hat trick. Now before we get your take, Liam, let's hear from Sam Lee, our Manchester City correspondent who was at the Bernabeu,
- [11:44]
Sam Lee
who saw that come in. I suppose you can always rely on Real Madrid to do something like that. They played against City for the last five years and every time, every time I've been here, they've had the ball at the back, put it forward and scored. Their ability to do that, no matter how down they look, no matter how good they look, no matter how bad they look, is unrivaled. They just keep doing it. I suppose you could also predicted that maybe Guardiola would throw in one of his overthinking moments. Generally, I'm not really like that term. Over the years, I do feel like there's always a reason for his decisions. I feel like there's always a reason, there's always logic. And look, there's plenty of times when he's picked a team that nobody really understands and City have won and we all forget about it. This though, I thought, I think there was logic in a lot of the decisions. But all of those decisions did involve ripping up the entire blueprint, not just the blueprint of this season and what's been working recently, the box, midfield, the two strikers, the wide fullbacks, all of that stuff basically ripped up the entire Guardiola philosophy of going into these games, big away Champions League games and keeping things really tight, trying not to lose matches in the first leg. That's Ana Payma to him. He just wants to keep things tight, get a draw, a win if you can, and then go. But they're really open, the changes. They left Bernardo Silva and Rodri Eisler in midfield and then I suppose on top of that, the defending was shocking. Valverde was fantastic, but basically City just watched him be fantastic. But look, next week everybody's going to be talking about whether they can turn it around. Probably not, but we'll see.
- [13:10]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, what a game that was. No Mbappe, no Bellingham. Liam. We've spoken about Pvaratskhelia on the other side for psg, but you know, big players like Valverde, when they needed, they step up. I mean, what a game that was. Real Madrid showing their pedigree once again
- [13:24]
Liam Toomey
without wishing to maybe cap his ambitions for what remains of his career. I think that won't get better than this. To score three goals like that in a Champions League game and a Champions half against the team of Manchester City's quality, it's incredible. It seemed like he had like an out of body experience and we all know he's been a great player for a long time and a great player who is very versatile in terms of the jobs he could do for a team. But he's not typically someone who carries the goal threat in the way that he did so brilliantly in that game. And it seemed to really catch City out. What amazes me though, is just Real Madrid's muscle memory. In the Champions League, when all else fails, they revert to this DNA. Doesn't seem to matter who's on the pitch for them, what the circumstances of the tie are, what stage the tie is in, what, what the scoreline is, how hopeless the situation is. They, they always back themselves to turn it around and it, I mean, it often comes across as arrogance, but it's not arrogance if you repeatedly back it up. It's just really impressive. And logically you would look at it and say, given the season they're having, they're not among probably the two, three biggest favorites to win this competition, but they have to be in that conversation because they're Real Madrid. And I think now, yeah, Manchester City look like they're in an incredibly difficult situation. They have enough FirePower to score 3, 4 goals without reply against Real Madrid, and we've seen them do it in this competition before, but it's just really hard not to see Real Madrid maybe finding one goal at the Etihad and getting through.
- [15:03]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, it's so interesting. Much like psg, Madrid aren't having the best season in La Liga, but, I mean, it probably will be either them or Barcelona to win it anyway. But does this just show what they're able to do in the Champions League, though? I mean, no one knows if they're going to win it necessarily, but you just can't write them off, as you've just said.
- [15:21]
Liam Toomey
Yeah. And this is with a coach that no one knows if they really believe in, who may not be there beyond the summer. I mean, I guess that's kind of true of every Real Madrid coach ever, but there seems to be this just institutional continuity and institutional strength that carries them in this particular competition. That doesn't always apply to La Liga and doesn't always apply to how well they're doing with a given coach or style of play. They just find a way to get it done. And I think that's to their immense credit. And you would have to think if they get through this round, the circumstances are going to improve for them, that they will get Mbappe and maybe Bellingham back at some point and have a bit more individual firepower to go with what they showed against City.
- [16:08]
James McNicholas
Havertz to make it one one. Into the corner, it went. No celebration from Kai Habers.
- [16:21]
Ayo Akimolere
Let's move on to another Champions League game. Let's talk about Arsenal, who went away to Germany to play it by Leverkusen. Joining us now, we have our Arsenal Correspondent, James McNicholas. James, great to have you with us. I mean, look, many would have looked at this fixture and thought perhaps Arsenal would have made it much easier for themselves away at Leverkusen, bearing in mind that the. That the riches available to both teams. But they made a meal of it. But also wonderful that Kai Havertz comes to rescue the day.
- [16:50]
James McNicholas
Well, quite. And I think Arsenal's result probably looks a little bit better in the context of some of the other European results that happened later in the evening and of course, the day preceding. Those expectations that you mentioned coming into the game were shared, I think, by many of the Bayer Leverkusen fans I spoke to out here in Germany. They were not particularly optimistic ahead of this game. Saw Arsenal as having an outstanding season, whereas they're having quite a Difficult campaign, having lost an a number of key players last summer. But big credit to Leverkusen. I thought they equipped themselves very well. They were organized, very diligent defensively. They carried a threat on the counterattack, particularly through 19 year old Striker Cafane who I thought was really impressive. And Arsenal were not at their best. But as has often been the case this season, even when they've not performed at their level, they find a way to avoid defeat.
- [17:37]
Ayo Akimolere
Liam Kai Havert, Champions League. You know, with a Chelsea hat on, he has a knack for performing well in this competition.
- [17:43]
Liam Toomey
Yeah, he is a big game player. Whatever else you might say about him, the things that you can and can't do, he does raise his game for the big occasion. I think it wasn't just the goal against Manchester City for Chelsea. A lot of his best moments for Chelsea came in the Champions League and in finals. He also hit a nerve wracking penalty to win what used to be called the Club World Cup. It's confusing now, the one that Chelsea won in 2022. But yeah, it wasn't a surprise for me to see Kai Havertz step up. And it's nice to see him him fit again after struggling with injury.
- [18:16]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. James, we need to talk about Arsenal's attack. Kaka probably didn't have the best game captain in the team yesterday in the Champions League. Madueke we saw came on and obviously showed a bit more impetus. Why do you think Arsenal are still struggling in attack, especially in the Champions League where we've seen them play much better sometimes than we have in the Premier League?
- [18:36]
James McNicholas
Yeah, I think typically in the Champions League teams have been a bit more open, they've played with a bit more ambition than many of the teams Arsenal have encountered in the Premier League and that has suited them. You know, Arsenal have players like Victor Jokers, Gabriel Martinelli who like to run into space and that space has to be present, has to be there. I thought Leverkusen, they really collapsed into their shape effectively and someone like Bukayo Saka, he did not have the best game individually. But there were many moments in the game where he was faced with not just two defenders, but sometimes three or four. Leverkusen was forming a little quadrant on that left hand side to stop Arsenal progressing down the right flank. But big credit to Noddy Madueke, he came on. Mikel Arteta's instruction to him was very clear, come on and change the game. He did that for Arsenal. It might have been a bit fortuitous, perhaps the penalty award, but it Came as a consequence of his direct running, his dribbling ability, that is his strong suit. And he's been quite an impactful player for Arsenal over the last few weeks.
- [19:31]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, you mentioned it earlier, perhaps. Arsenal came out of this probably the least scathed of all the Premier League teams in the Champions League. It really sets it up nicely for the Emirates, doesn't it, to. For Arsenal to try and win this and really grab this tie.
- [19:44]
James McNicholas
Absolutely. I mean, this tie reminded me a little bit of the. The Newcastle Barcelona game in that the home side got their lead and I think had they taken that one nil advantage into the second leg, it would have felt like a. A, a big landmark, a big milestone result. But the favorites ultimately grabbed their equalizer. And now you'd have to say Arsenal looking a pretty strong position ahead of that home leg. But they'll have to play better than they did last night. I mean, it's an intriguing aspect of this outstanding season Arsenal are having that. I do think over the last six weeks or so, performances have dipped a little bit. And there are some signs of, I think, mental fatigue, physical fatigue in the displays. They deserve credit on the one hand for continuing to churn out results. They are a very, very effective machine in that regard. But I think fans will be hoping that as we get into the home straight, the final part of the run in that the performance level lifts a bit too.
- [20:38]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, I was just wondering how important knockout football will be to win in general for someone like Mike and Arteta. Arsenal, as still we mentioned in a previous podcast, still in for the quadruple, James, all those cup competitions, Arsenal are still in really good space for, I mean, for Mikel Arteta even to get to the final of the Champions League. This season will be another great notch on what has been a really good tenure so far at Arsenal.
- [21:02]
Liam Toomey
It would be.
- [21:02]
James McNicholas
And you'd have to say that in the cup competitions this year, the draws have been relatively kind for them. I mean, and the FA cup, they've faced lower league opposition in every single round. They've got that coming again with their trip to Championship. Southampton in the carabao. They had a relatively kind run. They made the final of that competition. And in the Champions League, it opens up for them quite effectively. I mean, if they can progress against Leverkusen, it looks very much like it'll be Bodo in the quarterfinals. I think any Arsenal fan would have taken that. And then you might have a really intriguing tie against Atletico Madrid or Barcelona in the semi final. That would be a huge test for this Arsenal side, but it's 20 years since their last Champions League final, Paris 06, and they'll be desperately hoping to get to Budapest for this one.
- [21:47]
Ayo Akimolere
You know, James mentioned fatigue and also how physically debilitating it can be in this competition, but how much of a factor is the scheduling around domestic league games? So PSG basically don't play this weekend, and also they played on Friday ahead of face and Chelsea. Could more be done from a Premier League perspective in terms of scheduling, especially when these teams are having to face such high levels going into the Champions League?
- [22:13]
Liam Toomey
Yeah, I think more could be done, but I also don't think the Premier League cares. I think the Premier League is about the Premier League, and I think the mentality of the Premier League has always been we are the top league, the top competition, and the Champions League is just kind of an appendage. So I don't think Premier League teams can expect meaningful help. It's never been the case. I don't think it ever will be in Champions League competition. And that's particularly tough right now because I think, you know, we've spoken before about how the Premier League's middle class is probably better than it's ever been. The average Premier League game is more taxing on a team than it's ever been. And that means that a Premier League season is more draining for a squad than it's ever been. And you see every year, but this year is no exception. A real dichotomy between the teams like maybe Manchester United, who can focus fully on a Premier League without Champions League games in between, and teams like Chelsea, who haven't necessarily upgraded their squad that much from last season and have suddenly gone from Premier League Conference League, which they could easily handle, to Premier League Champions League, which their squad depth absolutely cannot. So as far as it applies to Chelsea, psg, it is definitely an advantage for psg. Even if they didn't have a free weekend, though, they can usually get away with making eight or nine changes in Ligue 1 and not paying too high a price. So, yeah, it's an uphill battle for Premier League clubs in that sense. But on the other hand, they have all the money and have the capability to build squads that can handle it.
- [23:48]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, that's exactly it. James, are we playing the tiniest violin for Premier League teams in sympathy with what they are able to bring to the Champions League in comparison to. I mean, if you look at Bodo Glim to what they're doing? I mean, they're astronomically performing above their standards.
- [24:03]
James McNicholas
Yeah. That's right. I don't think there'll be too much sympathy on the continent for Premier League sides with the resources at their disposal, particularly in a case like Arsenal where, you know, we're talking about an equalizer they conjured last night from two players who started on the substitutes bench. Noni Madueke coming on a £50 million signing, and then Kai Havertz, who is even more expensive, arriving from Chelsea and is a previous Champions League winner. So there are a lot of riches at the Premier League's disposal. And I think it's still, despite all the demands on a club like Arsenal competing on multiple fronts, I think it's absolutely right that they're considered among the favorites for this competition.
- [24:39]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, James, let's let you go. I know you're in Leverkusen. Have a safe flight, mate.
- [24:43]
James McNicholas
Pleasure.
- [24:43]
Ayo Akimolere
Thanks for having me on.
- [24:50]
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- [25:20]
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- [25:56]
Liam Toomey
Yep.
- [25:56]
Guy Clark
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- [26:04]
James McNicholas
You don't say.
- [26:05]
Guy Clark
Yeah, they're even picking it up tomorrow. Talk about f. Wow.
- [26:08]
James McNicholas
Way to go.
- [26:09]
Guy Clark
So about that picture frame. Ah, forget about it. Until Carvana makes one, I'm not interested.
- [26:15]
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- [26:26]
Guy Clark
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akamwaleere.
- [26:30]
Ayo Akimolere
Let's talk about the English clubs and let's look ahead to those second legs because no English club side one in the Champions League this week. Despite the odds being stacked in Their favor. Manchester City, Spurs, Chelsea all trail Liam by three goals. Any chance any of those teams are going to turn it around? I bet you're going to say Chelsea are doing it, aren't you?
- [26:51]
Liam Toomey
No, no, no. I mean, I do think, you know, Chelsea showed a part de prince that they were. They're capable of scoring three goals against psg. They very nearly did away from home and of course they did in the club world cup. But three goals without reply against the PSG team that look like they're getting into serious mode. I don't see it. And I just don't see Chelsea putting together a perfect 90 plus minutes, which is what they would need in order to have a chance of getting that done. So now I think it's gone for Chelsea. I would give Manchester City the best chance just because we know what they can do at their very best, they can find a gear that could get them there. But as we just said, you know, Real Madrid are Real Madrid in this competition for a reason. And it wouldn't surprise me if Real Madrid toy with going out before getting the goal that they need to get through. And Tottenham, I think, I mean, will they even play a real team for the second game? Given their situation in the premier League, I would question that. Do they have a real team to play at this point, given the situation in their squad? Their situation is completely hopeless.
- [28:01]
Ayo Akimolere
So interesting to watch a team like Bodo glimpse and we've spoken about it on this podcast before, not the greatest resources, but for some reason, gradually watching them build and build and build over time. 3 nil at home against sporting, I mean, dreams come true. I would love to see how much they've racked up just in general from European competitions, because even this run on the champions league would have definitely put some money in their pocket.
- [28:27]
Liam Toomey
Yeah, they've provided a real lesson to far bigger and richer clubs in just how to. How to build something really coherent that really works at the highest level and can enable you to punch massively above your weight. I'm just my big hope now beyond, you know, the residual hope that Chelsea come back and give me some more Champions league football to cover this season, is that Bodo emerge as like the Greece 2004 of this champions league. I mean, the landscape is not the same because in that tournament, the big teams basically cleared the path for Greece to come through and win. There are a lot of big teams who don't look ready to clear the path in this Champions league knockout stage, but it would be just like the biggest story ever. It would be Leicester winning the Premier League times a thousand, wouldn't it? And I mean, even if they don't, you know, even if it ends probably in the next round now rather than this round. What a fantastic story and yeah, what a great credit to everyone involved there.
- [29:26]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, just a quick one on Bayern Munich, who absolutely obliterated at Atalanta and they put six past them and they look in imperious form both in the Bundesliga and in the Champions League. Me and Tom Williams basically had them to win this competition. Do you agree?
- [29:44]
Liam Toomey
Well, I probably would have agreed until I saw what I saw from PSG last night because that makes me doubt it slightly. You know, we saw PSG beat Bayern at the Club World cup as well, and I do still think PSG ultimately have a gear that no one else can quite reach and it's a question of whether they can hit that gear consistently enough to win in the loaded half of the draw. Bayern are in that half as well, but I do think they're at worst the second strongest team on that side. I think they're better than Real Madrid and Manchester City, certainly on form. The problem they've had in recent years, Bayern, I think, is that they win the Bundesliga so easily that they very rarely come into March, April, May in peak form. But they certainly look to be at the moment and you know, you look at the way someone like Michael Elise is playing in particular and it's just, it's a pleasure to watch him. So I think they've got world class quality in almost every area. Company seems to be doing a very good job there and they really believe in him. So it looks like the most unified and coherent that Bayern have been for several years.
- [30:52]
Ayo Akimolere
Liam, appreciate your time. You're another one with a flight to catch as well. Get home safe. James and Sam, thanks for joining us earlier and also thank you guys for joining us as well. We'll catch you soon.
- [31:05]
Guy Clark
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Staven Brew and Jay Beal with editing by Paul Iliff and Nick Thompson. The executive producer is AD Moorhead to listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows. Search for the Athletic wherever you get your podcasts. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company. Production.
- [31:43]
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- [32:15]
Guy Clark
Now, with almost half a million customers and over a trillion dollars of secure payments, Bill isn't new to intelligent finance. It's the proven way to simplify bill pay and maximize cash flow. Want to learn more? Visit bill.comproven for a special offer.
- [32:33]
Advertiser
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