Jack Pitt-Brooke (2:02)

No, I think the record is fine. I think more important probably is. I mean, firstly you've got to look at the qualification campaign. Like the defeat that England had, which was really bad, did come in the friendly against Senegal. They've won all of their qualifiers so far, which is a very good start. More importantly, I think in terms of performances, the picture looks very different now after the Serbia game. So in England's last game they won five nil away at Serbia. It was their best performance, I think, in years and I think that has changed the mood a bit because in the games before then, even though England were winning, they weren't necessarily impressing. I think there were, people were maybe doubting a little bit the appointment of Tuchel or what exactly is he going for, but that performance in Belgrade was so good that I think now people are thinking we're on the right track, things are heading in the right direction before the World cup. And I think it really has changed the narrative and mood around Thomas Tuchel.

Ayob Akimoleri (2:52)

Yeah, I mean, that's the big one, isn't it, the World Cup, David. That's what he was brought in to do, at least get England to the World cup. And there's a hope that obviously England do well in that World Cup. But, you know, any thoughts and what the feeling is around Thomas Tuchel, around the England camp right now?

David Ornstein (3:06)

Well, of course he's a massive appointment. You know, this is a winner. This is one of the biggest names in world football management. And yeah, England have tried foreign coaches before, they've tried, tried home grown coaches and in Tuku, I think there was a, a widespread acceptance that they were going for the top tier. It was almost looking like Pep Guardiola at one point. And then when it pivoted to Tsuko, I think there was a groundswell of opinion among England fans and media that it was, it was an enthusing appointment by the FA and a great deal of excitement and intrigue. I think there may be an acceptance certainly among all of us that he, he should have got going earlier. He didn't start until the turn of the year, so there were a couple of matches at the back end of 2024 that he wasn't involved in. So his first match wasn't until March. That sort of limited the time that he'd have to work with the England squad in preparation for the, the big game, which is winning the World Cup. Senegal aside, it, it's been impressive in terms of results. 13 goals scored, none conceded in the other games. And then as Jack quite rightly points out, you know, Serbia had almost Germany vibes 5 1. And all of the enthusiasm that came with that all those years ago with Owen and Heskey & Co. And there seems to be a good vibe in the camp. You know, that's all academic if they don't continue it in this camp with their second friendly. Senegal was the only friendly previously, so Wales will be another one of those, even though it feels a bit more competitive when it's against a home nation. And then of course they'll try and basically seal their qualification. All of that said, I think we've come to the point now where friendlies and qualifiers don't really matter in the minds of the public because, you know, Gareth Southgate and predecessors, Steve McLaren aside, Graham Taylor, if you go back even further, have qualified England for the major tournaments largely with aplomb. And it's about what happens when we get there. So all of the judgment on Tuchel is reserved, to be honest. Is he going to deliver out in the usa, Canada and Mexico in a way that he's delivered in Champions League, in domestic titles. This is a guy who people hire to, yeah, build. They have in the past, but certainly now to win trophies. To put the cherry on the cake, England, in terms of their weapons, their strength in depth in most positions now seem as good a challenger for, for honors as any other nation. Okay, that, that, you know, we saw in the Euros final that, that Spain perhaps were a level ahead and there will be different challenges on, on the world stage, but they will be fearing England as well. And that last performance shows that if England can keep, you know, most of their players fit and available, which is a big if going into next summer after a grueling season and a summer which many didn't have off in 2024, then they are absolutely title contenders. And the mood around the camp, to go back to your question, I mean, Jack spent more time in and around it than me, I think pretty positive. Tuchel hasn't been afraid to be outspoken, to ruffle feathers, to make mistakes and accidents in his public comments. He's been quite ruthless in decision making. Not necessarily playing to the gallery. Some unpopular calls that we'll get into on this pod, I'm sure, but it's on him. It's on his shoulders and he'll be judged by the results. And he certainly appears to be welcoming that.

Ayob Akimoleri (6:53)

Yeah, it's on him. David says it well. And Jack, you know, I think about sort of the flack some parts of the media gave him for being a German coach taking over the England job. Do you think some of those conversations have subsided or might we hear them again? If England don't do that well, I.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (7:11)

Think ultimately he's only going to be judged on results and as David says, specifically on results at the World Cup. I don't think. I think the public have largely taken to him so far. I think there seems to be quite a lot of support for him, both amongst England fans who go to games and amongst the wider public at large. But it will all come down to a few games in the World cup which are obviously very difficult to plan and control for. It will Come down to a few random bounces of the ball. It'll come down to a few contested referee decisions or VAR decisions in very, very alien conditions in extreme heat at the World Cup. And so I think all the judgment is suspended up until that point. But if England do badly at the World cup, then obviously people are going to criticise not just Tuchel himself, but also the that led to his appointment in October of last year. So, no, I don't think his nationality is an issue, but I do think that people will turn very quickly if it goes wrong next summer, I think.

Ayob Akimoleri (8:09)

What about the style of football? We talk about the Serbia game, obviously. 5 nil, brilliant. Finally feels like England are off and going. Does it really matter about the style if England win?

Jack Pitt-Brooke (8:20)

I think it does matter because people got frustrated. I mean, we can see that this is true, right, because of Gareth Southgate. England's record under Gareth Southfield was very good. And people complained about the football because they thought it was boring. So clearly the style does matter to people. I think it especially matters to Thomas Tuchel because after taking over, he spoke very bravely about how he wanted to change the style of play. He thought it was too slow. He wanted to make England more like a Premier League team and play higher tempo and more intensity. So he has set a standard which he has to meet. I do think that Serbia game was probably the first time we saw something approaching the type of football he would like England to play. His now have to maintain that standard. But as ever, I mean, every conversation that we have comes back to the World Cup. You know, England can play as well as they want in their next few games this month, then in November and then in March. But they will be. What they will be judged on is how well they play in very, very different conditions, in heat and humidity. And we saw that the effect that has on players in the club World cup last summer. And so I think that the style of play they are establishing now is great. But the real question is to what extent can they replicate that at World cup next summer?

Ayob Akimoleri (9:32)

Yeah, David, I think people forget just how little time a lot of international coaches actually have with their team to try and implement some of their plans. Does the style matter if England end up galloping to the semi final or the final of the World Cup? One nil here, two nil here.

David Ornstein (9:47)

I think it's as straightforward IO as the style won't matter if, or it will to some people, but by and large to people, if England win the tournament and anything less. When you say there if they get to the semis or the final, if they don't win it, then the style will matter a lot more to many more people. It's just the way that we're ingrained. You know, if, if you're going to do it in an agricultural way, and I'll come on to why I don't think Tuka will, then you've got to go and win it. England at the 2003 Rugby World Cup, Clive Woodward was very open in saying, it doesn't matter how we do it, it's just whether we lift that William Webb Ellis trophy and, and they did and there was scrutiny of their style and he didn't care and the celebrations don't tend. It was done. Once you've got that piece of silverware in hand and the, the style is absolutely remembered if it, if it doesn't work out, especially when you've got a crop like England's rugby team did in 2003 and you could say England's football team do now. Why I said I'd come back to the style is because I don't think there are many excuses. Now when you look at England front to back and admittedly there's going to be a heavy question mark over fitness availability and form at the time of the tournamen, but we'll go through team selections a bit later. I think there is creativity, style, proven club pedigree trophy winning potential, either in terms of it's been evidenced or, or the sort of players and characters that are going to be collecting accolades in their career, individually and collectively in every position. Thomas Tuchel has selection dilemmas. If people are not stepping up that there are others ready to come in and replace them. There are those who will be coming back to fitness and hopefully form too. And therefore when you look at it like that, I do think style will be important because England have it within their disposal, especially in the group stages because they should be navigated in quite a straightforward manner and therefore the public, the media will demand a bit of a swagger. Not as important as the result, but it will, it will be. If, if games are straightforward then, then you need something else to talk about. It's like how you go about it as you get to the knockouts. I just think the excitement in the country tends to build to, to the point of just, just progressing to the next stage and building, building again. So yeah, that, that start sort of purist debate is eternal, isn't it? But, but I think it's now about eyes on the PR.

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Ayob Akimoleri (15:26)

Yeah, I mean, Jack David's just alluded to it, and you've spoken about this in your latest piece on the Athletic, how Tuchel wants people to earn their place in the England squad. But I guess there'll be natural comparisons to Gareth Southgate and how he dealt with being outspoken about players and things like that. What do you think those natural comparisons are? And in terms of the way Thomas Tuchel, like, deals with the press versus someone like Gareth Southgate, for instance, when it came to things like team selection?

Jack Pitt-Brooke (15:54)

Well, I think they're both very impressive people, but they are very different in the media environment. So I found over the course of Southgate's tenure, particularly in the last few years, I felt like he, like the responsibility of being England manager seemed to weigh on him so heavily that he would really. He would be so careful with everything he said he would be so he would be at pains to see both sides of every point. He would really kind of. He would. He would take everyone's views into an into account. He'd be very, very, very careful, very thoughtful with what he said. Whereas Tuchel is so direct. Like, he is unbelievably candid and can be very blunt.

Ayob Akimoleri (16:39)

Is that a cultural thing, do you think?

Jack Pitt-Brooke (16:41)

Maybe. I think it might well be. But he's very like, his command of English is unbelievably good. Like, he is so articulate and funny and incisive and clever and good with words, but he's also very direct. And I think we saw the best example of this was his comments about Bellingham, where he said that Bellingham's behavior on the pitch could be perceived as repulsive, a word that he's apologized for. And he has said that he did not mean to use that word and he apologized for the impact that that had. But that was in the context of an interview about Bellingham where he said, you know, that Bellingham has an edge which needs to be channeled so that it does not intimidate his teammate. So he's not afraid at all about speaking in quite blunt terms about specific individuals in a way which I think Southgate often was reluctant to kind of wade into that sort of debate.

Ayob Akimoleri (17:35)

Yeah. And David, there are two schools of thought here. He's been very open, very direct. But I guess in the sense of Gareth Southgate, some might see that as protecting his players from the media spotlight. I mean, it can be quite risky speaking about your players in such a way, in a public way, when we know the British media in itself. And the arrow that's pointed on the England squad at the best of times can be kind of a bit tricky.

David Ornstein (18:01)

Yeah, It's a theater of sort of jeopardy. The England manager's job, the press conference, the interviews, is scrutinized like nowhere else. Even sort of Manchester United. And we're seeing it now with Reuben Amarin. But I think the England manager's position takes it to a new level. And Gareth Southgate was the ultimate diplomat. He spoke very eloquently. He's so well educated, articulate. He got a terrible time of it in periods, and I thought that was grossly unfair. And it was obviously a consequence of what people were seeing on the pitch and the shift in expectations. But that guy's an incredible leader and he took England to heights that deserve ultimate respect. Tuchel is a very different character, and he was a departure from Southgate from the very first comments he made, which was quite striking. You were sort of taken aback. But I also think that's refreshing. Say it as it is. You don't really need to pussyfoot around and walk on eggshells the whole time and say things you don't believe. It's in Tuchel's character to be straight to the point. And, and, and he, he's here for a good time, not a long time. You know, it's a short contract from.

Ayob Akimoleri (19:21)

You, but you're so true.

David Ornstein (19:23)

And, and, and he's kind of wearing his heart on his sleeve and, and I think there'll be hiccups along the way. The Bellingham comment, which he would rather move on from, as we saw in the press conference the other day, was. It was unfortunate, maybe a bit misguided. We're all human and I, I felt for Bellingham in that, because it was surely not representative of what Tuchel really thought. Well, I'm certainly not repulsed by him. I think he's a. A generational player and, and we'll come on to talk about team selection later. But, you know, he, he has proven England that the, the country and the world over that. That he's an international level player of the highest caliber who delivers on the biggest stage. And when you hear Jordan Henderson speak in, in media interviews over the last 24 hours or so. He talks about how popular Jude Bellingham is in the camp. So little things that I guess Tuchel will come to regret. But fair play to the man. He he then apologized in his his next press conference and and has repeatedly since. And with no disrespect to Southgate, I I think he is all it's also possible to say that Tuchel's quite a breath of fresh air. I think he's entertaining, he's engaging, he answers questions, he provides us all with headlines and talking points. I think he keeps his players on his toes, on their toes by by sort of laying it onto them as it is. And that is probably healthy if they're going to take that sort of very small percentage step forward to go from contenders preten competitive level to winners and and he's capable of doing it. Whether he will or not will be determined by so many factors next summer.

Ayob Akimoleri (21:25)

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David Ornstein (22:45)

Did I talk too much? Can't I just let it go? Thank you so much.

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You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with ayawakamolera.

Ayob Akimoleri (23:27)

Okay, so gents, I want you to put yourself in the seat. June 2026, the World cup has finally rolled around. England or qualified and you are picking your England starting 11. So we've all done it.

David Ornstein (23:42)

Jack.

Ayob Akimoleri (23:42)

You, you have to roll first on this as the England expert. Go for it. Who have you picked as your starting 11 for England?

Jack Pitt-Brooke (23:48)

So in goal, Jordan Pickford.

Ayob Akimoleri (23:50)

Okay.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (23:50)

Really easy, obvious one, I think no explanation required. Right back Rhys James, I think is probably the best of the options there. If he's fit, I think Tuchel will want a conventional right back, somebody who gives him a lot of athleticism going forward. James is obviously quite experienced now. He's been to a few tournaments. Centre back. I think John Stones is one of the most important players in that squad. I mean, England have got nobody as good as him. I don't think it's the same. You could have Gehy and Consah who both played well for England in recent years, but I think you need Stones for his experience. Experience for he gives you in possession. So ideally Stones and Gay here, center back, left back is a really open selection. There's lots of different people who it could be. It was Tino Libramento in Belgrade. Obviously he's injured at the moment. It was Miles Louis Skelly at the start of Tuchel's tenure. I've gone for Jed Spence, who plays not every game at left back but basically rotates with destiny. Udogie for spurs also plays at right back. I think he's been really impressive over this calendar year. So he's the player I would want to have at left back. But I'm kind of open to. Open to other suggestions. I imagine you've got Lewis Skelly in your team.

Ayob Akimoleri (25:01)

I might have been a bit biased there with Louis Skelly just because I think he. He plays that position quite naturally for Arsenal. Anyway, he hasn't played much this season so far and I'm hoping he gets more, more time, but we're looking at next year Now, Jed, so That's why I'm putting Louis Scully there, potentially. The other change I've made is who sits next to Declan Rice. And I've put Adam Wharton there.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (25:22)

Yeah, I love Adam Wharton. I think he's an unbelievably good footballer. I love watching him play. I would love to see him in the England team. Realistically, I think that England is looking for one player to play alongside Declan Rice. Clearly, I think that's the balance that Tuchel wants. We saw that in the last few games. It'd be rice plus one and then a 10. In front at the moment is Morgan Rodgers, but I think could be Bellingham or maybe Palmer or perhaps even some Morgan or perhaps even Morgan Rodgers or somebody else. But Elliot Anderson was really good against Serbia in the last camp. I thought he was the big star of the last camp. So I think at the moment he is the man in possession to play alongside Declan Rice. I would certainly still take Wharton. I would want him in the squad. I think he's better than almost everyone else England have got in that position. If I was to speculate as to what Anderson has that Wharton doesn't, maybe Anderson is just a bit more physical, maybe. And, I mean, I don't. I think Wharton's probably better with the ball. I mean, Wharton's better than almost every.

Ayob Akimoleri (26:22)

Midfielder in the country with the ball, he's so silky.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (26:25)

But maybe without the ball, Elliot Anderson's just a bit more solid, perhaps. So in terms of the front four, I think two of the positions are locked down. Like Harry Kane will definitely start up front. I know that every tournament there's always a few incredibly clever people who say, oh, they should drop Kane for somebody else. Those people are wrong. They're always wrong. Kane should start up front for England. Bukayo Saka on the right. If he can stay fit, I would definitely have him in without a second thought. I just think he's the best player that England have got in that position. I really hope that he is fully fit going into the World Cup. He's an amazing player. So then there's kind of two question marks left. Number 10 and out on the left in the 10. I've gone for Bellingham over Rodgers. I just think that even after this month, I think that Bellingham still has the biggest upside. I think he's a match winner. He's proven at the highest level. Did it in the Euros last summer, done it many times for Real Madrid. I hope that he does get into good form and rhythm again for Real Madrid. He comes back for the November games plays against Serbia and Albania and then we can go from there and then on the left. I think. I actually think we've not really talked about it enough. I think one of them, one of the best and biggest things that Tuchel's done since he's come back is bringing back Marcus Rashford. You know, Rush, I thought Rashford was finished at international level before, before Tuchel took over. Southgate obviously didn't take him to the Euros. I think England, I think looking back at the Euros, England really missed having pace around Kane as a problem is that Southgate was so keen to get in Foden and Bellingham that he took away the players who really can kind of bring the best out of Kane. And the players who brought the best out of Harry Kane over the years were Sterling and Rashford. You know, you need pace alongside him to make those runs beyond Kane and that's why I think it has to be Rashford or Gordon on the left who give you that. And I think I would go for Rashford because I just think Rashford on a good day is an unbelievably good player and I think he's worth keeping faith in that and trying to build his confidence up and hopefully we can have a really good fit hungry in form Rashford in the US next summer.

Ayob Akimoleri (28:34)

Okay, David, you've heard our changes. Any changes from your perspective, especially Jack's really elite England score squad at left back.

David Ornstein (28:42)

I do differ from Jack. He did mention Tino Livermento. I think he is immense technically, tactically, physically. It will be interesting to see if he's fit. He should be, but you obviously never know when the tournament rolls around. He's had a number of injuries in his young career so far, but. And I know he's slightly more suited to the right, but I don't see many better options than him for the left. I see different and maybe equal options. You need to, I feel, have played at international level and hopefully excelled rather than coming in cold. So you do hear people calling for, say, a Tyrick Mitchell. I really like him, but he hasn't been used at international level and it's, it's, I think, unrealistic, maybe inconceivable that such a strong team and squad and, and of that has depth and options is going to bring somebody like that in. He's got height, he's got aerial prowess, he's got speed. And there's a reason why Manchester City, for example, like him so much. This isn't a transfer pod, but we know they sort of pursued him in the past and might do in the future. It's because I think he is a top player.

Ayob Akimoleri (30:08)

Where does Cole Palmer fit into this? If anyone was to be dropped from that front line, can he just on merit alone right now?

David Ornstein (30:17)

He's a finisher.

Ayob Akimoleri (30:18)

It's cold. He's cold finisher.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (30:22)

I mean, the only place he could play in that team, I think, is in Bellingham's role. Yeah, but I think the same logic that is applied to Bellingham has to be applied to Palmer, which is that he has to. He has to work his way in. And I know he's an unbelievable player and he's been ridiculously good for Chelsea in recent years, but he. I mean, at the very least, I think he will have to prove his fitness for an England camp and then play well for England and go from there. I think that. I think everything that Tuchel's talking about at the moment would be undermined if he were to just pick up Cole Palmer because he's been playing so well in club football and put him straight into the team. That's not how. That's not how Tuchel wants to build his England team. I don't think that's how successful international teams are built. So, no, I don't think as good as he is, I wouldn't parachute him straight back in. And I do think that the teams that Dave and I have picked and the team that Tushel himself will pick, much more importantly, because it doesn't really matter. What I think will be more balanced than simply having all the most famous players on the pitch at the same time.

Ayob Akimoleri (31:24)

Okay, well, let's hope that Thomas Tuchel is the one to break that curse and bring back a World cup to the England men's team since 1966. No easy feat, I'll tell you. Right, gents, let's leave it there. Jack, David, appreciate your time and we'll see you soon.

Podcast Announcer/Producer (31:41)

You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabre and Jay Beal. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and Adie Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an Athletic Media Company production.

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The Athletic FC.

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Ayob Akimoleri (32:48)

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Jack Pitt-Brooke (32:58)

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