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When you're a forward thinker, you don't.
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Just bring your A game, you bring your AI game.
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The FIFA World Cup 26 is coming to North America next summer. It'll be the ultimate celebration of sports and culture. So get closer to the beautiful game with a hospitality package. Closer to the action in the best seats and suites. Closer to matchday elevated with world class food and entertainment, closer to the experience of a lifetime. Book a hospitality package@fifaworldcup.com Hospitality. That's FIFAWorldCup.com Hospitality. The Athletic FC. Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. Record attendance at the euros. Check. €65,000. And in London, to celebrate the lionesses, check. Rising attendances for the wsl. Well, not that season. So is women's football still growing? All right, with us today we have Charlotte Harper. We've also got Megan Feringer as well. Charlotte, transfer deadline day for the wsl. How busy has this summer been for you?
- [01:51]
C
It's been a busy one, especially with the Euros. And it feels like the transfer window has definitely heated up this summer. A big move as Meghan will come to talk about is Olivia Smith from Liverpool to arsenal breaking that 1 million pound mark. And also we have American interest, NWSL coming in. And Chelsea are in talks to sign Alyssa Thompson from Angel City, but that deal is yet to be agreed and very much hanging in the balance at the time of recording.
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B
Yeah, Megan, let's get into this. The 1 million barrier being broken. Big one for Olivia Smith, but yet again another big signing, big money relatively coming into the wsl.
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D
Yeah, the WSL sort of been the landing place for sort of these record fees and the NWSL as well. So you kind of had this back and forth between them. But when Olivia Smith went for a million pounds and between two English clubs as well, I think that was where you saw sort of the watershed and it was right, the market is now at this level because on the American side you did have people spending quite a bit of money. But the market was slightly different. You had valuations at different clubs that were different. But to have two English clubs spend that kind of cash, that was the moment where people went, okay, we're looking at an international market that can operate at a million pounds. And since then Olivia Smith has sort of been the benchmark when people are looking at doing sales. And that's why we've had one, two different transfers sort of break the Olivia Smith record already. I mean it's kind of been chaotic. I feel sort of bad for Olivia Smith. She can't even bask in her like record breaking because it's like a month later someone's already broken it and taken the. But this is where we're at in the women's game and there's a lot of question marks. But it's also quite exciting too.
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B
What do you think though in terms of the general trend that clubs are capable of spending bigger now? Is that what we're seeing or is it just that top tier of Arsenal, Chelsea that have still got the money in the pocket? Guys?
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D
I think the top tier definitely that's where you're seeing more of the money being spent. But there is going to be a trickle down, but out of necessity, you know, clubs are going to have to start breaking their transfer records. Evertson broke their club transfer record for Ruby Mace from the Leicester. It's not a million pounds but it's still sort of a tick up from where Everton were previously operating. So I think you're going to have it.
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C
Why are we getting more transfer fees is because more players have multi year contracts. A couple of years ago you would have a player on a one year contract. And so what is a transfer fee? It's saying I, as a club I'm willing to pay this for a player which is a reflection of the product success as well because the higher the transfer fee goes, the more it demonstrates like well women's football is here to stay because I'm investing in this player and we know that players are club's most valuable assets. So as their worth goes up, so does a fee a club is willing to spend. So yes, more money is coming into the game. But as Megan said, I'd caveat it. Some clubs can spend that money, not all clubs.
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B
When you say more money is coming into the game, Megan, where is that money coming from? Are we talking external investment? Because obviously we've seen what's happened with Chelsea for instance. Is that the model to get more money? Because you can't necessarily say that the Men's team are going to allow that money to trickle down to the women's team.
- [05:09]
D
In some respects it's definitely a model that people are looking at. I think right now you sort of have not a wild west, but it is sort of an open template of, okay, how can you try to get investment in what do you want to do, how do you want to operate? I think Chelsea and Arsenal have done a really great job of being able to invest from internal avenues and then kind of being able to stand on their own two feet. But other clubs don't feel like they're able to do that. So you do have. Well, Chelsea have obviously gotten the external investment. Everton have sold their women's club to themselves. But that's probably a way of trying to make sure that they can get external investment. You've got Western who have done it, Aston Villa who have done it. Cynics will point at psr. But there's also the element of you can come and get external investment. Because if you look at the nwsl, they are free, standalone women's clubs that do not have to rely on a men's side. So on the WSL side you're sort of trying to figure out, okay, how's the best way for us to kind of keep ourselves separate too? Because investors come in, they might just want to invest in the women's team. They don't want their money to have to be spread across. Same with the men's side. So this is probably a better of enticing those investors in. So I think you're going to see more of that.
- [06:12]
C
Also we have a new broadcast deal for the wsl. So that's a five year deal as of this season and that's worth around 13 million per year compared to a previous 7 to 8 million. You've got matchday revenue which Arsenal are the absolute leaders in that selling out. The Emirates and commercial deals have increased as well. So those are your three streams of revenue.
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B
Meghan, a couple of eye catching moves ahead of the deadline for two members of the Lionesses. Jess park going to Manchester City from Manchester United and Grace Clinton going from Manchester United to Manchester City.
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D
Yeah, so it's, it's not a swap deal. They are two separate deals. Charlotte has written a great piece obviously on the Athletic and you can go and read it. This is one of those moments where Manchester City have obviously really wanted Grace Clinton and a way of getting her is is via selling Jess park to Manchester United. Grace Clinton is in the final year of her deal and Manchester United have a really poor track record of losing players on a free transfer once their deals go out. So I know that there's going to be a lot of United fans who are really upset to see Grace Clinton go because she is a fantastic midfielder. But at the end of the day, if you're going to lose her on a free, it's not great to keep up that habit of doing it. You know, you lost Mary Earp's on a free, you've lost Katie Zellum on a free who is a captain. You don't want to keep doing that. So I would argue that it's probably good business from United States. It's not great that they can't keep hold of her because she's clearly such a talent. But if you are going to lose a player, this is probably the best way to make money off of it and not look like you've got egg on your face at the end of the transfer window next summer.
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B
Is it good business for United, Charlotte?
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C
I think it's a convenient move for all parties involved. Both players evidently wanted the move and would have moved for a free next year. So if you're going to lose a player for free, why not get a transfer fee for both? And what we is that Manchester United paid a transfer fee for Jess park, but Clinton's transfer fee was higher and so City have evidently paid a net sum to Manchester United. So Manchester United come out with a bit of a profit. That's savvy business. But it's not the essence of this deal. It's a deal that says both players wanted to leave, especially if their contract was running diner and they hadn't signed a new deal yet. Both players want game time. So it seems like a swap across the city which is, you know, fans will be, it's great for as a fan for rival clubs, it's going to be really, really fun to watch. But a move that suits all parties.
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D
Yeah.
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B
Can I pick both your brains about sort of signing a lioness? How much is that in sort of the minds of clubs when they buy players in terms of attracting fans to the stadium to see, you know, two time euro winners or a euro winner or players at the top of their game in that respect? Is that something clubs think about? Charlotte?
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C
I think especially in your mid to kind of lower tables, they will really lean on. Come and buy a season ticket. Come and see a lioness. So after Euro 2022, Aston Villa strategy was look, you know, come and see Rachel Daly, come and see Hannah Hampton. Who are these European championship Winners. We also know that forms part of a recruitment strategy as well, higher up the table in terms of a commercial point of view. If you look at Arsenal, they have Leah Williamson, the captain, Alessio Russo, star striker Beth. Well, so they will lean into that and that will play to their advantage. But it would be foolish to think I just want a lioness. And that's the only recruitment factor you're going to consider. If you look at Chelsea, you know, they are masters of succession planning and will take a very global approach, but also trying to identify the bright young prospects and I think it sounds obvious, but only really do a deal and only sign a lioness if it makes sense for long term success rather than quick short term gain just to get a few more people through the turnstiles.
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B
Yeah, I imagine the premiums for a lioness Megan was also quite high. Especially when you're thinking about actually the greater team at hand.
- [10:26]
D
Yeah, when you look at sort of the present lionesses, the ones that are in the squad, you know, someone like Chloe Kelly, even in January, Arsenal were the ones who could sort of say, well, we'll pay for you, we'll be able to offer you what we can. There was talk that Everton were potentially eventually going to be a destination for Chloe Kelly. And it got to a point where they looked at their finances and were like this. There's no possible way of doing it. So that's why you also have clubs who are looking at the younger Lionesses, under 17s, under 19s and saying, okay, where's the talent there? And if it looks like they're promising, well, why don't we start to invest in those players? Because, you know, the lionesses aren't just the ones that are on the pitch currently, they're the ones that are going to be there in five years and they are starting to invest in that. But the marketability of a lioness is incredible. I remember when Bristol City were in the WSL and they would get the Arsenal game, they have the City game and they would market it as the lionesses effect. Come see our former lionesses, you know, they used to have Lauren Hemp on their books and they would really play on that. And that's a player that didn't even play for them anymore. So I think there's definitely a lioness effect. I would like to see in the next couple years whether that ebbs or if it continues to increase. So I think that'll be interesting.
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Okay, well, having touched on some moves for the lionesses next, we'll reflect on summer of success.
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It's Kelly.
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C
How is it home?
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The Lionesses go back to back for the second time in three summers. The Lionesses made sure football came home, becoming the first England side to win a major tournament on foreign soil. Charlotte, take us back to Switzerland. We're all watching on our TV screens but what is it like following this team?
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C
Toe curling. Yeah. I think Georgia Stanway said if she would get a tattoo it'd be of a roller coaster because it really was an emotional roller coaster with England. They just showed that grit and, and determination to get through those Sweden and Italy games. And when you're in the final it sounds cliched but they had nothing to lose. They weren't afraid of Spain. They had beaten them earlier in the year and I think just that penalty shootout, they had done it against Sweden, they knew their process and Spain haven't been in that situation. I actually spoke to Lucy Bronze about this which you can read on the Athletic soon and it was really, really interesting of how process driven England are in those penalties. Getting the job done. Basically yeah.
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B
I mean we talk about International success, Meghan and I always wonder how open that window is after international success, that fans come to women's football, especially the league form. But how important is international success just to at least put more eyes on the product?
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D
I think just all you have to do is look back to the previous Euros victory and just that boom of interest in England. And yes, it was on home soil, so obviously that's going to help. But then this one, I think is equally important because last season we actually saw a dip in attendances at WSL games. And there is sort of this understanding and this acknowledgement amongst clubs that, yes, there is obviously a very direct link to the lioness success, to getting fans into the turnstiles. They're trying to change that, but this is only going to be a good thing that they've now won, they've brought it back home. You've got again, household names that people are all familiar with. So it's going to be a good thing. Clubs have to capitalize correctly on it because I think a lot of clubs sort of relied on just. It'll just keep moving. And they realized three years after the last Euros, oh, no, it's sort of, you know, ebbing away, the impact's not as big. So I don't think you're going to see as an extreme a jump as to like, you know, oh, it's a 70% increase in attendances or anything like that. But if you can get a steadier sort of average attendance at middle to lower WSL team games, I think you're. That's a really good sign of growth. You know, Everton, you know, they're playing at Waltonhall park last season, which is. Is not conducive to a big crowd, but they had the lowest average crowd of like 1.2000. So you want to try to lift that up especially. And if you can see that kind of from the bottom up, then you know that there's growth.
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B
Yeah. I also wonder how important the international game is to earn certain players a great move, but also put them in the window of the limelight, you know, I can't stop thinking about Linda Caicedo's goal in the Australian World Cup. I mean, it was superb. Superb goal, right? Probably one of the greatest goals I've seen in World cup football ever earns herself a transfer to Real Madrid. Not many people would have known who Linda Caicedo was before that. How important is this window, though? Because. Because the world is watching at a point where perhaps during the league season so many People might not be watching as well. Guys.
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D
Well, Michelle Ackemang, I think, is the, the prime example of this. And she was this, this player who, I think if you were a WSL fan, you knew who she was. And then suddenly she comes into the England squad. She had all this potential, she had this promise, and suddenly she's sort of the savior of, of England. And I think a lot of Arsenal fans actually wanted her to stay at Arsenal. She didn't. She's gone back on loan with Brighton, where she spent the last season, to go, and further her development. But I think a player like that, suddenly, and you're like, holy moly, you know, you're worth something here. So, yeah, I think she's a great example of what the Euros can do. But also Charlotte probably knows, like, Iman Benny, who's just gone to Manchester City. She was on the Switzerland squad. Fantastic player, fantastic talent, and a lot of people got to see that. And now you can sort of look at her and say, cool, we know what you're up to now.
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C
I think it's impact off the pitch as well. You've seen it with the commercial deals. Everyone wants a lioness and the, the creme de la creme. If it's your striker or your captain or a big personality, they will be snapped up by the biggest sponsors, which are not traditionally inverted commas, football brands. They are cutting through society, whether that's women's health, whether that's fashion, whether that's makeup, and it's reaching a broader audience. So then their value increases as well. So on the pitch and off the pitch, your international success is, I wouldn't say crucial, but, you know, it can definitely catapult you into another sphere in terms of your global appeal.
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D
Yeah, I think you tend to transcend, like, your sporting ecosystem and you become, I don't want to say mainstream, because mainstream seems like a negative, like, like a bad thing to be. But I think a lot of these players names, you know, I've got friends who don't necessarily watch football and they know who these players are, whether that's because of a TikTok they've seen or Instagram or whatever. So I think these players, when you do well on international stage, you do tend to transcend your own sport or like your own league.
- [18:40]
B
Yeah. I do wonder, is it possible for a player to be bigger than the club right now? Because we're talking about these global brands who are players. Sometimes it's hard to marry that up with the club status as well. Are we finding that in the women's.
- [18:54]
D
Game, I think there's definitely more power when it comes to individuals. In the women's game, I think you have a lot of fans who follow individual players more than they maybe would follow a club. But that's because a lot of them, them have come into the game via these players personalities, via TikTok, via Instagram. You know, we talk a lot about, I guess just in the 2020s about this sort of like the socio relationship that people have with famous people. And I think women's footballers or women's sports stars are very much a part of that, that culture. You've got fans who really idolize these players. So if Grace Clinton leaves Manchester United, I wouldn't be surprised if there are fans who are suddenly like, well, I want to support Grace. I don't necessarily support that. And it's going to probably cause a bit of divide because you're going to have other fans who are like, nope, traditional, follow the club. But there, I think it's definitely a growing culture to follow the individual players. And we're seeing now that players have sway, they have power. If they want to move, they can put something on social media and that's not explicit to the women's game. We saw with the men's game this summer as well, putting something on social media and managing to manufacture a move. But I do think women's players now definitely have a little bit more power and I think clubs are starting to realize that as well.
- [20:10]
C
I think it's also a relatively young sport still. And so the history of a club on the women's side is not as established. Only Arsenal really. And I think Arsenal probably has the hardcore, you know, following in terms of an allegiance to a team. But as Megan said, the selling power are the players and that is how the League is advertising this. Come and see your star players. So the fans are going to be, you know, more attached to individuals than necessarily their team. And I, when I say fans, I'm talking about more the general public who are new to the game.
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B
Yeah, I mean that brings me to my next point and Charlotte, please start and Megan, follow on is that, you know, 11.6 million people watched the Euros final on the BBC. I know it was free tier, which makes it much easier for people to come to the game. But, you know, how do we then convert those casual fans to watch the lionesses? Because I know you can leverage the lionesses in the league if you sign them for your team and stuff to just hardcore fans of the game in General or that pay their tickets to come watch Bristol City, for instance, even though they've been relegated. Or, you know, Everton, for instance. Charlotte.
- [21:18]
C
It depends how you sell it. And especially with clubs who are linked to the, you know, men's team. Still, men's football hasn't had to sell itself. It hasn't had to go out and say, come and watch us and market the product like the women's team has. So it's a real kind of shift in mentality of just going and being everywhere in every avenue possible. You know, Arsenal did this really well after Euro 2022, is getting surveys of fans data saying, this is where our game's at. Who, what, when, why, how? The basics. I remember fans turning up with prams because they wanted to bring their children and families and they're like, where are we going to put all these prams? But, you know, that is how you need to make sure you communicate we are playing here on this day, at this time, and get it out to anybody who is interested on your database. It sounds so simple, but that's what Arsenal did really well. But also, I would not be targeting the lioness fans. I would be casting my net much, much wider. Your lioness fans may tune in on tournament cycles, but you want to be reaching as many people as possible, perhaps who have never watched women's football. And still your target, aud is way bigger than a lioness audience.
- [22:41]
D
Yeah, I think it's about trying to market yourself in a way that is still football focused because you don't want to turn this into a circus either. Like, you don't want the women's game to be sort of sport adjacent. I think that's really important too, because you will end up turning off some of your, like, very hardcore supporters. So it's about finding that, that balance. And I think that's the big dilemma with, with the game at the moment is how do you find that balance? How do you entice people in without sort of having some clown out front doing cartwhee and offering free booze to people like, you got to find a way that still makes sure that people understand that there's substance to what you're trying to sell. So I think you're going to see a lot of teams this year and a lot of clubs this year trying to sort of pivot in a way that makes them fun and makes them unique, without trying to sacrifice the product of the sport. And if people can do that correctly, then, then, you know, Bristol City, while they were in the wsl I thought they were a prime example of how you can do that. Arsenal again have set the stage. I think Everton moving to Goodison, they have so many opportunities to do something really, really fun with their game days and I think too like turning it into an afternoon out for the family, for fans, for even just guys who are in high school or college or university, getting them to come in on a Friday night and say, you know, before you go out, why don't you come to a game on a Friday night? Like being able to position yourself as that would be really key.
- [24:04]
B
Yeah, you touched on the earlier Charlotte, but how important is scheduling scheduling of those matches? And I guess people always say, well if men are playing at 3 o' clock or whatever, how are to we going going to put the women on the Saturday. But you kind of want it at a point where all eyes will be on the product as well.
- [24:21]
C
And this has been a tricky point for the League as well because of the saturation of broadcasting. So they've got rid of the Sunday 6:45 evening slots, which was just a nightmare for any kind of fans to get to and from, and replace that with a Sunday midday slot. And they also have a regular Friday evening slots as well. So be really interesting to see figures and how that's affects the League, but there's no quick fix or simple solution. And that's why with the wsl, you have to be bold with your ideas. Not everything's going to work, but you have something unique because you can do something different.
- [24:59]
B
Next, having discussed the success of the lionesses, let's look at the state of the WSL with the CEO of the League, Niki Doucet.
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Can't I just let it go?
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- [26:54]
A
Well, I think who said it, Billie Jean King said pressure is a privilege. So I think off the back of this summer, it's just such an ignition moment for us. So I think everyone is head down, working as hard as we can, make sure that the league is as successful as it possibly can be. And I think the fans are there and all of the clubs are there. This is going to be, I think, one of the best seasons we've ever seen.
- [27:18]
B
Nikki, despite the Lionesses victory at the Euros, bringing in record viewing figures, attendances in the WSL last season fell. Is that something we should be concerned about?
- [27:29]
A
I think one of the things I think that's exciting when I look at even just this past summer is sold out stadiums. There was a lot of traveling fans going to Switzerland. Switzerland was expensive to be there, but you see a great fan base that's going to watch great football. I still haven't heard anyone ever tell me they had a bad experience going to watch a women's football match. So I think this season, especially with some of the changes that we're making with expanding the WSL next season with the promotion relegation playoff at the end of this season, I think with all the activity in the transfer window, I think you're seeing teams invest. I think we're going to see an incredibly competitive season that is going to be the most exciting that a lot of fans are going to kind of want to come watch in terms of.
- [28:15]
D
Trying to get fans to come to the matches. I know one of the things that you've introduced or some of the clubs have introduced is alcohol being allowed to be like drunk in the stadiums in terms of just because I was speaking to another club about this recently, like, how do you ensure that maybe like clubs aren't selling their alcohol too expensive? Or is there Like a kind of a limit as to how expensive they can sell it. Can they sell it for cheaper to try to entice more people in? Are there rules, I guess that are governing how implement the sale of alcohol?
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A
I think clubs will have the opportunity to decide what's right for, for that particular pilot. It was super successful last season which is why we're able to expand it this season. Like, you know, I think our fan base is, is different and should have the choice to drink if they would like to or not. So we're going to have more clubs in the WSL and in the WSL to expand that pilot. And I think each club is testing what works best, whether that's alcohol sales, whether that's new food and beverage options for the this for our fan base, I think, or what's the right merchandise opportunities and that you have the opportunity to purchase, you know, whatever shirt with the player that you want off the back of it or anything else from that perspective. So I think each club will go through what's right for their fan base and what they can do within the stands.
- [29:32]
B
Yeah, something I just want to follow on in terms of sort of audience attendances as well. You know, I'm a big Arsenal fan, love watching them. As we know at the Emirates, it's always a good time time. Big audiences, higher than Fulham, some might say higher than four Premier League sides last season in particular Chelsea only other side averaging around 10,000 fans at the stadium. Now we've got teams like Manchester City, Manchester United, big clubs on a global scale. How do you think or why do you think they've not been able to manage that sort of transfer in terms of attendances that Arsenal and Chelsea have.
- [30:06]
A
In particular, nothing's going to grow in a straight line. And I think we've gone from, from amateur to professional in a very short period of time. And I think the most important thing for each club is to figure out how are you going to make your women's team a must have for the community and why should the community come and support the club every single match. And I think each club is at a different stage of the journey in terms of how they're embedding the women's team within the community and if it's part of a bigger club or if it's an independent club like Durham or London City Lionesses. So I think each club is at a different journey. But how you have your fan supporter groups, how they're connected into the club for both the men's side and the women's side. If it's a club that has both of those teams, you know, where are they playing? Is it easy for the fans to buy tickets? Is it easy for them to understand the journey and how to get there? So each club I think is on a different journey from that perspective. But ultimately everybody has to figure out how do you make your women's team a must have for your community?
- [31:09]
C
Hi, Nikki, Just on that, what are the league doing to really support the clubs in terms of resources to help market this product to, you know, not only I understand your point about community, but, you know, a much wider net available.
- [31:26]
A
So a lot of things. So first I would say I'd use a lighthouse analogy to begin with. I think the role of the league is like the lighthouse and our job is to shine the light as far and as wide to as many people as possible. And then at the moment we've got 24 ports and we've got to get as many boats with as many people into each port as possible. So there's a number of things we're doing. It starts with the partnerships that we have. So we've just announced one with Ocean Outdoor. So we're able to get, you know, out of home inventory for in each city for each of our clubs that we can help promote and market where the games are to get awareness. We have centralized services from ticketing strategies that we can share best practices with each of our clubs and ultimately support from a marketing perspective as best we can. We've just launched our new website, WSLfootball.com, which hopefully should make it easy and a one stop shop for any fan to be able to find where the fixtures are, what time we're playing, who the players are, and easy one click links to all of the clubs to purchase tickets if that's what they choose to do, or to just find out more information about their favorite player. So I think it's a combined effort amongst everybody and our ability to share best practices with what's working at each club.
- [32:44]
C
We've seen Arsenal really capitalize on their matchday revenue for teams lower down the league and in WSL too. What's the incentive to invest in a women's team if you're not getting that return straight away?
- [32:58]
A
Well, I think again, it's an early stage market development, so when you look at returns, I think we're looking at a ten year investment horizon at a middle minimum and you're looking at a 2035 potential of a home World Cup. And so I think you're seeing a lot of clubs that have invested early and were probably early stage adopters of the women's game. And you're seeing other clubs that are starting to see the potential of the growth of the game. And we all see that and we all know that we want to grow in a financially sustainable way. But it's getting people into the stands, it's understanding what that fan base wants. You know, are we serving them the food and beverage options that they want? Are we able to come with your family and bring a bag in with food, question mark? You know, do you have the right merchandise opportunities to be able to do that? And is it an experience that you want to be part of? And that's the journey that we're going on. I think you're seeing more and more clubs invest, and I think you're seeing the growth of our game from that perspective.
- [33:59]
D
When you first came into the WSL and you came into this ecosystem and you were having those conversations with people to kind of say, this is a long game play, you know, you're going to have to, to look a few years down the line before you see a return. Have you seen the response to when you say that to clubs? Have you seen that change over the last year or two? I mean, I just want to know, like, where clubs may be a little like pushing back previously and have clubs starting to accept that now?
- [34:26]
A
I think you're starting to see lots of changes. I think you're seeing new ownership come in. I just again go back to this. What's coming up this season. If you look at the transfer window and how that continues to grow, which players are coming here, how competitive our league is, you know, we now have stats that are starting to say our league is actually the most competitive league in the world, despite it having our promotion or relegation. And the other thing is we have an exciting form of football. You know, there's more goals scored in open play in our game than in other leagues, even on the men's side. And I think that's really exciting. We have more percentage of attacking players touching the ball in our game. And so this is some of the things that we haven't had a chance to storytell around or in a way that I think we really, really could. And just so that people understand what makes women's football distinctive. And I think a lot of it is actually the style of our play. And you're starting to see the fans respond to that. And ultimately that means the owners are going to respond to that. I think we have A lot of people wanting to invest and wanting to see the future of the growth.
- [35:32]
B
Yeah. When we talk about changes, Nikki, I wonder if there's a conversation about readdressing competitive balance. You know, we look at Arsenal, European Champions, Chelsea, the last six WSL titles, massive. For the sake of the product, is it worth thinking about how we actually get some of these other teams also to compete at that level as well?
- [35:51]
A
I think so, but I think we're starting, we are actually a more competitive league than perhaps the narrative suggests. Despite having the same winner for multiple years. When you look at when the title race is actually decided, if it's come down to the last couple of matches, how close is it? Also the goal difference between each of the teams you're seeing? Last year Chelsea win a lot of their matches in the final third of the game and perhaps by just one goal. I think it is becoming more competitive. All of the players that we talk to say the same thing. And I think as we look to expand the wsl, I think you'll create a more competitive race at the bottom of the league as well from a relegation perspective, which I think will create more competitive narrat within the league, which I think will also make that more exciting for fans just picking up on relegation.
- [36:45]
C
Nikki, can you explain why there was conversations about the potential of a closed league?
- [36:51]
A
I think at the beginning of the conversation, like I've mentioned before, I think as we're trying to figure out the best way to grow the game, I think you have to review every single possible scenario and look at the pros and cons of that to decide what's the right business decision going forward. Forward. We had a significant consultation process across every single stakeholder. Whether that was all of our clubs, players through the pfa, the LMA and managers, the fa, our fan supporter groups with the fsa. So I think going on the right consultation program, understanding what the pros and cons are of every possible scenario to encourage investment and encourage the right decision making going forward. I think we got to a really good decision. I think, you know, we're starting to see the benefit off the back of that. With this season and the amount of investment by multiple clubs and the excitement of the league going forward.
- [37:46]
B
Okay, now, before we finish it up, we have to talk about London City Lionesses promoted to the WSL for the first time ahead of the new season. Formed as an independent breakaway from millwall Lionesses in 2019. Michelle Kang, we've spoken about her, she's all across the media of what she's done in the women's game. Is their model sustainable in your perspective?
- [38:08]
A
I think there will be multiple models and multiple structures in the women's game that can be successful and I think that's what feels exciting about our game and what differentiates us as well is that we can have independent clubs that can prove that they're successful. Obviously, time will tell, but what's exciting right now is that particular team as well as Durham, you know, our other independent club in the WSL too. Their teams wake up every single day thinking 100% on how they're going to grow the women's team. And I think we'll learn a lot from some of the decisions that they make that might work in other structures where there's a club that has both a men's and women's team as well. So I feel like that's one of the exciting parts about our league and ultimately we're still seeing which models are going to be the most successful.
- [38:55]
C
Nikki, just on the multi club ownership, as I understand it, there aren't any regulations in the women's game.
- [39:01]
A
Why is is that at the moment, I think being an early stage development market, again, you're trying to encourage as much investment into the game as possible. And I think every league in the world is also looking at how they encourage investment. I think it's one of the things that we're reviewing and trying to understand where the pain points are and if capital is being deployed or if it isn't being deployed. Because we need more investment into the game. We all know that to grow the game, to grow the talent pathway, to improve and make sure the high performance standards are what they need to be for the athletes. So I think it's one of the things we're constantly reviewing and trying to understand what is the right guidelines going forward. Also in partnership with FIFA and UEFA and ultimately how they're reviewing that as.
- [39:52]
C
Well, because some would say it's an unfair advantage that you can just ship players here and coaches and swap a bar.
- [39:58]
A
Well, there's regulations obviously around player loans and transfer rules that every club has to adhere to. So again, again we're trying to figure out how do we encourage more investment into the game and is there opportunities around multi club ownership and what that looks like and understanding what are the right guidelines and regulation for that going forward?
- [40:20]
D
Is there a way of looking at the men's game in the sense of they have multi club ownership? There are regulations, but some would argue that they're probably not working as well. As they maybe should. Is there a way of looking at that yourselves and saying, we don't want to follow that blueprint. We don't have to make the same mistakes to maybe use a aggressive word. But yeah, is there a way of doing that?
- [40:42]
A
I think we can always learn from other leagues, whether that's the men's league or other structures and other sports. And again, we're still at an early stage development and we have to have more investment come into the game more broadly and finding the right structures, the right incentives, the right incubation period and structures, if you will, to encourage that investment to come in.
- [41:05]
C
Is that investment at all costs?
- [41:08]
A
What do you mean by that?
- [41:10]
C
Well, you know, you've seen again in the men's game investment coming from all over the world and in controversial means, whether that's the Saudi influence or Qatari influence or things like that.
- [41:23]
A
Well, I think what we look at is what are the problems that we're trying to solve for and when you look at the partnerships that we're bringing on board at the moment. So for example, we've just announced our Nike deal deal as a renewal of being a league partner. One of the problems we're trying to solve for based on the feedback from the athletes is a lot of them had to buy their own boots. I mean, imagine going to a new company and having to buy your own laptop to work. And so part of that partnership is trying to solve that problem for our athletes. So they will be supplying boots for all the athletes that don't have a boot deal in WSL and WSL2, as well as gloves for all of the gold. So I think as, as we grow going forward, it's what are the problems we are trying to solve for and are we bringing on the right partners to help us solve those problems?
- [42:12]
B
Okay, brilliant. Honestly, we've grilled you enough, but really appreciate your time. It's been a really thought provoking conversation, but also I'm excited for the new season as well. And also good luck. Transfer deadline day Nikki, it's a big one today.
- [42:26]
A
Yes, exactly. It is a big one.
- [42:28]
D
Should be exciting.
- [42:30]
B
Should be, should be. Thank you so much for joining us.
- [42:32]
A
All right, thanks everybody.
- [42:33]
B
That was a really interesting conversation. Charlotte, what are your thoughts?
- [42:37]
C
I think investment was the key takeaway from that. The WSL is still in the growth stage. We still hear it's a startup, they need growth, they need investment and they need eyeballs growing your audience and commercial interest. Then you look at kind of five to 10 years time and you, you Want to retain those eyeballs. You can't just have Arsenal, Chelsea and then in Europe, Barcelona and Lyones. You need some jeopardy, especially in the domestic game because otherwise you're just going to torpedo your domestic product and the competitive balance is so important. And then if you're looking long term, you want to make sure that your infrastructure is there because there is no point having these transfer fees and record breaking deals and investment if the ownership groups just see these teams and add ons and don't make them a priority. Priority.
- [43:30]
B
Yeah. A lot about players to look out for in the season ahead. Megan Ajiman not in an Arsenal shirt really worries me. It's so sad. But Brighton, great place to develop but what you're thinking in terms of players fans should be looking out for this season who might have actually a decent one ahead.
- [43:47]
D
Oh, there's so many. I think Manchester City getting Jade Rose is quite an exciting signing. It's crazy to see her name come up but it's like Harvard University is where she's from and it's like oh, she's in the wsl.
- [43:58]
A
How fun.
- [43:59]
D
I think she's a great signing. Ruby Mace going to Everton is, is really big but there's quite a big influx of Japanese players coming into the wsl. Everton now have three Japanese players. Brighton as well, I think just keeping an eye out.
- [44:15]
B
Is there a reason for that?
- [44:16]
D
I've spoken to quite a lot of managers and they say like technically speaking the Japanese players are some of the best they've ever worked with and having that ability to play in midfield and then sort of adapt to the game as quickly as they do. Every manager I've spoken to has said that they are just blown away by the level development and the level of technical skill that the players have. I think at Everton, when you look at Brian Sorensen, he works really close with the Japanese national team. Manager knows him quite well. So. So there's a connection there. So yeah, I think that's all exciting as well. But there's so many players too and you know, if Alyssa Thompson manages to make her move, I think a lot of people get Thompson shirts in the next couple weeks.
- [44:55]
C
Watch this space for Alyssa Thompson could go down to the wire.
- [44:58]
B
All right, let's leave it there. Charlotte, Meghan, I really appreciate your time and also Nikki Doucette, thank you so much for joining us a little early earlier on and also thank you guys for listening. Matt Davis Adams is here tomorrow. Looking back on the opening weeks of the Premier League so far. We'll catch you soon. You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroot and Jay Beal.
- [45:21]
D
The executive producer was 80 Morehead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free. Search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places.
- [45:30]
B
The Athletes Athletic FC podcast is an.
- [45:32]
D
Athletic media company production.
- [45:47]
B
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