IO Akinwalere (3:31)

Yeah, it's a great story from David Ornstein as well as our colleague Mario Cortegana on the Athletic, that Ancelotti is expected to leave the club. More on Alonso a little later on Guillermo. I'm just wondering about the timing of this, because the season's not over. Real Madrid still have a chance to win La Liga and also the Copa del Rey final, which is imminent against their arch rivals, Barcelona. I mean, how the club deal with this is really important. And the timing of whether or not he stays or goes is also very important as well.

Guillermo Rai (4:01)

Yeah, it's not the best timing, to be honest. That's why there are voices from the world who are now trying to counter attack these, these reports. They are trying to play down because there is this final, this major challenge against Barcelona and they want to be focused on that. But the truth is that a lot of things have happened since the Arsenal defeat. And if, and only if there is a big defeat against Barcelona, more things could happen sooner than later. And Ancelotti knows that he's in a tough spot is obviously up to the board, as is always. It's always the same case when we talk about Real Madrid coach is Florentino's, but for now he stays because it's not the right timing. In just three, four days, they will know if they are copal re champions. And you cannot replace your coach with something so important, so close.

IO Akinwalere (5:07)

Right. Well, when asked a press conference on Tuesday if he was feeling the pressure, Ancelotti said the club is aware that it has been a more complicated year than last year. Together we managed the difficulties. The honeymoon continues. I'm very happy, very happy with a lot of pressure, but that's how it always is. You see success very close and it's normal for stress to increase. But stress, Listen to this is fuel for me. It doesn't bother me. It gives me more energy to think about more things. As long as I continue to get up in the morning, everything is fine. Thomas, I mean, does he need any more connections to the phrase Don Carlo with that cool? Stress is fuel for me. But also, I do wonder, and we were just talking about this before the podcast, how many more kind of coaches in the global game right now can wear that stress of managing Real Madrid where the pressure is so big every season, more than Ancelotti?

Thomas Gil Lopez Manchero (6:06)

Yeah, the pressure is huge. And as you said, IO, I think it's something we've talked about on previous podcasts that Ancelotti just seems the perfect manager for that kind of environment. He really is as. As cool as a cucumber. You know, he. He enjoys that stress. As he says. This season has been different to, to the last one, though, because as much as Ancelotti managed to kind of paper over the cracks last season, in many ways, I often don't think he gets enough credit for how he dealt with losing three key pieces of his defense, including the. The goalkeeper Thibaut Courtois to ACL injuries and yet still recovering to win La Liga and the Champions League. This year has. Has definitely been more difficult. I think losing Tony Kroos plays a big part in that. Losing defender Nacho Fernandez as well, that's. That's difficult to deal with, particularly if you don't. Don't replace him. And as much as having a great superstar forward as Mbappe in your front line helps. And you know, Guillermo has written about how they kind of expected the coaching staff expected to score more goals and concede more. You know, the reality is they've scored about the same number of goals and conceded more. And in a situation like that, it's clear you're going to struggle. I think Ancelotti deals with the pressure world, but I do think there are signs this season that that pressure has amped up and, and, you know, has become untenable at times.

IO Akinwalere (7:23)

Yeah, Guillermo, this is a coach that's won more trophies than any other manager in the club's history. I'm just wondering where he, where he ranks in terms of his global stock right now, because as I've just said to Thomas, it's not many people that can wear the stress of Real Madrid on their shoulders like Ancelotti. And if he were to be replaced, I mean, you need someone who is ready to take that on.

Guillermo Rai (7:45)

Yeah, definitely. I mean, Ancelotti came from Everton. Probably he wasn't the Top level of his career. And when he joined Real Madrid there were, I think part of the Real Madrid fan base who criticized the move because of that. Now I don't think that anyone is saying Ancelotti is not the right man for any role. Now he's like after these four years, this year's two Champions League titles and so on, he has all the credit. He can be anywhere. And from what I know he's thinking on the next steps of his career, he's open to be the coach of a national team. We have reported David and Mario about Brazil, but I think he has plenty of options obviously because of what he has done in the past four years. And yeah, I think that now any substitute will have to deal with this shadow. It will be hard for Xavi Alonso or whoever comes next because is what it is. The titles are there and you can always have your, your team playing really, really well. In terms of style, who probably is the worst thing that he has been criticized lately about Carlo. But in terms of titles, it's really difficult to overcome a man who has won two Champions League titles in just four years.

IO Akinwalere (9:14)

Yeah, yeah, Thomas, if Brazil is the next destination, I mean, I'm wondering why it would appeal to Ancelotti. But then you look at the team's, Ancelotti's coach. Juventus, AC Milan, Chelsea, psg, Real Madrid, twice, Bayern Munich, Napoli. I mean these are some of the big juggernauts in European football. He just had a little flirt with Everton as well, which I'm sure the Everton fans love. But this is a coach that's amassed maybe what, 20 odd trophies in his, in his career, won five European titles. I mean this is one of the most coveted managers in the world. Surely Don Carlo just wants to put his feet up, bit of Copacabana beach, be out there with the Brazilian guys. And he's already got a few of those players on his team already.

Thomas Gil Lopez Manchero (9:54)

Yeah, it does feel like it's a step that would be impressive on a CV point of view. As you say, it kind of feels like a national team to, to rival those, those clubs that you mentioned there. I do also think it would be going into another pressure cooker environment. I mean, Brazil, one of the most demanding jobs in the game. We know from a lot of writing by our colleague Jack Lang that they're at a low ebb at the moment, losing 41 to Argentina in the last international break, sacking their coach D'Orval Jr. After that, I think Ancelotti will be the first foreign ball manager of Brazil since 1965. So that I'm sure would add pressure. But as you say, and as, as Mario's reported, he's got good links with those Brazilian players at Madrid Vinicius, Rodrigo Militao Endrick to an extent that's probably the big draw of leading them at the 2026 World Cup. And I mean, what a way that would be to, to go out as a coach if he was able to lead them to the final and a record extending sixth title in the U.S. obviously there's a, there's a long way to go until, until that happens, but even so, I can see the appeal from, from Ancelotti's point of view, although I don't think it's, you know, quite the kind of putting your feet up job that he might have, he might have envisaged. You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akinwalere.

IO Akinwalere (11:09)

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Thomas Gil Lopez Manchero (11:41)

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IO Akinwalere (11:47)

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Thomas Gil Lopez Manchero (11:57)

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IO Akinwalere (11:59)

Are the clues. The mother's hiding something. I know it. To find her, tell me where she is. The Stolen Girl New episodes Thursdays stream on Hulu. There are people out there all across the country pushing boundaries to grow the game of golf. Like champion speed golfer Lauren Kupp, who plays faster than anyone else. And Will Lowrey, whose work in the golf community inspires more kids to get into the game. As a champion partner of the Masters, bank of America supports everyone determined to find out what's possible in golf and in life. What would you like the power to do? Bank of America bank of America NA Member FDIC Copyright 2025 bank of America Corporation. All rights reserved. If he does leave, who is that person? Well, we heard from David Ornstein earlier that Leverkusen's Xabi Alonso is the front runner for the job. Let's get the perspective from Germany right now with our German football correspondent Seb Stafford Blur, who was speaking to James Richardson on Tuesday's Totally Football show. Is this being seen as the kind of the end days of the Xavi Alonso regiment?

Thomas Gil Lopez Manchero (13:07)

I don't think we've quite got to what happens next at Leverkusen because the storyline is still really centered on what happens next at Jabilonso. So yesterday on Monday, Fernando Caro, who's the Leverkusen CEO, was talking at the Laris Sports Awards and he was asked of course about Alonso with rumors that Carlo Ancelotti is done at Real Madrid and heading for Brazil. And he said we'll probably know within three or four weeks. A couple have a really good relationship with Alonso. They've always been upfront about what they want. Caro Alonso, Simon Rolfs CEO for Sport from their partnership. And they've always said also that if Alonso wants to go, they're not going.

IO Akinwalere (13:46)

To stand in his way.

Thomas Gil Lopez Manchero (13:46)

They're not going to keep him prisoner in Leverkusen. So we'll see.

IO Akinwalere (13:50)

We'll see.

Thomas Gil Lopez Manchero (13:50)

I think the communication's pretty frank and honest there, so I think we'll have a pretty uncomplicated resolution. But he has a contract so he might well stay, but we'll see. And then I think then and only then we'll get to kind of succession planning. Well, probably we'll get to Florian Wirt first. First and then succession planning after that.

IO Akinwalere (14:08)

Yeah, Guillermo, look, this isn't going to go anywhere, isn't it? I mean, the connections are so rife, full of fire I like to call it. You know, we've heard reports that, you know, there's a gentleman's agreement between Alonso and Leverkusen. What's the latest on this situation?

Guillermo Rai (14:22)

Yeah, indeed. As Seb was was telling us, Fernando Carro was in Madrid on Monday and he confirmed that there was indeed a gentleman's agreement between Xavi and Leverkusen. If Xavi is approached by any former club, then Leverkusen will set him free. But they, they will have to sit and discuss about. About the. The options. Is curious because last season there were some offers for Xavi Alonso from other clubs. I think we reported about Liverpool's interest, Bayern Munich's interest and as Fernando Carro acknowledged on Monday, I was with him at the Lowris Awards and basically what he said is that Xavi sit with them on March last year, 2024. Basically what he said to the Leverkusen Board is okay. Let's discuss about the future. I think this year I will stay. It was in 2024 and he stayed. Now what Carlo said is that they have sit in this international break back in March, it was late March and they haven't had a decision from Xavi. What they have agreed is to take some time. What Carlo said is okay. In the next three or four weeks we will have to have a decision. And we are at this point Leverkusen at least officially doesn't know if Xabi Alonso is going to continue. But it's true that now that Carro has acknowledged that there is this gentleman agreement, it will be strange that if Real Madrid really needs Xabi Alonso and goes to him, that Leverkusen will stop Real Madrid because of this move. We will have to see, as I said, because Carlo said that there are three, four weeks of deadline and things could change. But they obviously plan the next season with Xavi and they are also planning the next season with some successors. Caro didn't mention any substitute. Possible substitute, but he was speaking like very. With. With honesty about. About the case, which is strange for. For director.

IO Akinwalere (16:45)

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I don't want to connect too many of the dots because the world of football constantly changes, Thomas, but this is a really interesting one and we've been talking about this for a while. Do you think it's time for Xabi Alonso to step up? Some might say, you know, what a wonderful season he had last season with Leverkusen. Went unbeaten and this season's been okay. I mean, it has been great, but it's been okay. They're still second in the Bundesliga, an okay Champions League run. Some might say perhaps he wants to test himself at a bigger stage. But there's also a set of Florentino Perez on the other side, who's a tricky customer.

Thomas Gil Lopez Manchero (17:17)

Yeah, it's hard to say whether it's the right time for Xabi Alonso. I think that's true of. Of asking that about any coach for Real Madrid because it's such a big job with unique pressures. I do think him having bided his time seemingly as a coach over the past couple of seasons plays in his favor. He's. He's clearly chosen a pretty intelligent path. You know, coaching Ralph Sociedad's B team, where he came through as a player, then going to Leverkusen, maybe a bit out of the. Out the spotlight. I definitely see parallels there with Zidane when he joined Madrid as a. As a legendary former player. But Xabi Alonso is Far advanced, actually, in his kind of coaching career, and has already achieved such great success with Leverkusen, which plays in his favor again. It's just how that all. How the chips kind of fall when you're actually at the Bernabeu. I do think his. His experience there at the club as a player, he also left on his. On his own terms. I think that that all helps. He knows how to. How to manage those unique pressures, and players would look up to him. I mean, you know, you know that from even reading interviews, watching and listening to interviews with his Leverkusen players. They do look up to him because of that legendary playing career he's had. And I'm sure he would be able to instill his. His philosophy at Madrid. You feel like he has the personality to. To do that.

IO Akinwalere (18:37)

Yeah, he does have a certain aura, Guillermo, you know, because of what he's won as a player and actually as a coach now, especially what he's done o kusen. But you know that I guess the expectation at Leverkusen, him arriving would be a lot different to the expectation and the pressure of arriving at Real Madrid, especially off the back of a season where they haven't won the Champions League, there's a chance they might not win La Liga or the Copel del Rey, and he's going to be coming into that and trying to implement new ideas. I mean, do you think he's the kind of coach that can wear this kind of pressure?

Guillermo Rai (19:10)

Well, I think that he has the experience from his career as a player, as you said. Obviously, he knows how. How Real Madrid works. He has been at the Real Madrid academy as a coach. It was his first job as a football coach. So I will say that he has experience. But when you arrive at Real as a coach is. As a coach of the first team is a completely different scenario. And we will have to see. He hasn't had this experience at Leverkusen. I remember a conversation with a Real Madrid senior source back last year when there was some discussions regarding Xavi's future. And this source told me something significant which was, okay, we understand that Xavier is staying one more year because he has nothing to lose at Leverkusen. All that he does is positive for the club. And it's something that I consider significant, because at Real is difficult to get anything positive apart from a triumph, apart from a title. In other clubs, if you see growth, if you see development, then people will be happy. But here at Real, even if they complain, the fans, maybe some directors complain about the style, what they really need is the triumph. They really need the victory. And Xavier will have to deal with that, along with all the changes that they didn't have to have, obviously. And if, if and only if Real Madrid have to pay something, because we were talking about a gentleman agreement. But it has been reported elsewhere in Germany that there could be a breakout clause in the contract with Bayer Leverkusen. Imagine if Real Madrid have to pay an amount for Xabi Alonso, then the pressure will be higher and the people will say, okay, we are paying for a coach like a player, then he will have to deliver.

IO Akinwalere (21:04)

Of course I want to move on to the kind of football he might play, Thomas. But very quickly, Guillermo, I'm just thinking about the. The Real Madrid fans here. I mean, are they spoiled a little bit? You know, most other teams, the season they've had, of course they've not done well in the Champions League, but this is just one season, you know, they've not done well in the Champions League. They usually win the Champions League. It's almost their fate to win the Champions League. Yes, they're not winning La Liga, but this is just another season. Football is just kind of like this. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't.

Guillermo Rai (21:34)

Well, you. You seem like a Real Madrid. It was like it was the official narrative. But after. After a decade in which Real Madrid have lifted six Champions League titles, it's impossible not to be demanding is the Real Madrid spirit. And that's why they are so bitter, so successful as a club. I think that Real Madrid fan base are completely really aware about the club situation, not only about the sporting situation, but also financial situation, everything. And still demanding because they have seen incredible things, so they have the right to be so.

IO Akinwalere (22:14)

Yeah, for sure. Let's talk about if it is Xabi Alonso who comes to Real Madrid. I'm thinking about the style of football because something I will go on to in a second is where this squad currently are. But this is a guy that likes a little bit more structure, as we've seen, and he's got a particular system. Now back to this fan base. Did his fan base have the time for it not to work immediately and hopefully maybe wait one season before they see the Real. Real Madrid under a new coach. Or would they expect instant success and can he do it in such a short space of time?

Thomas Gil Lopez Manchero (22:46)

Yeah, I think I always say they probably would expect instant success. That's. That's what we've. That's what Madrid fans have. Have come to expect of. Of their team, obviously with. With so many superstars in it. I think what Alonso would bring is more structure, probably a more intricate style of play. I know Michael Cox has written about how despite Xabi Alonso being a kind of long passer in his day, actually short passing is what his Leverkusen team are built on. Whether players such as Vinicius and Bape have the patience to learn from someone like Alonso, I guess we'll see. I do think that past of his as a player probably does help. You'd imagine he'd have some bright ideas as well as to how to fix Madrid's midfield, which has been a big, big source of concern this season in the absence of Toni Kroos. But yeah, I think those are the main things that Alonso would bring to Madrid, as you say. Whether he'd be given the time to actually implement that is another question.

IO Akinwalere (23:39)

Yeah, our colleague Dermot Corrigan, Guillermo basically wrote a piece which was titled, Real Madrid have superstars, but that doesn't make them a good team. Surely that's the first thing to fix, really, is to bring this team together. And we spoke about it in a previous podcast you guys were on and how it's been great that Real Madrid do have these individuals. But when you play a team like Arsenal, for instance, that are so well structured and well drilled, there's no plan B. You know, if one superstar isn't doing well, then everything kind of collapses.

Guillermo Rai (24:10)

Yeah, I think if Carlo lives and Xavi comes in, I think the first duty that Xavier will have to face is to do some sacrifices. After four years as a head coach, Carlo Ancelotti hasn't been able in this season to do, to maybe take out a starter from, from the 11. He hasn't. He hasn't tried, to be honest. A lot of changes within the squad he has sent bet on the youngsters. Now he's playing Endrick, but the Champions League is gone. The Champions League option is gone. So probably with Xabi Alonso, what we could see in the near future is, I will say, a brave team with different options and less, I will say, well, with players that don't really know if they are starters or not, that they have to prove themselves. And I think it will be great because the level of competition or competitivity, it will be increased. And that's why there has to be like a new year and a new coach.

IO Akinwalere (25:23)

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Thomas Gil Lopez Manchero (26:55)

This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO A.

IO Akinwalere (27:03)

Well, let's move on. What might be next for Real Madrid? Because you look Guillermo, if it is Xabi Alonso, I'm just thinking there are some very talented players on that Levis cousin squad. One of them, Jonathan Tah. You look at the issues Real Madrid now have in defense, could this be a player that he brings across with him? Because of course, Jonathan Taz recently admitted that he won't be staying past the end of his contract at Bayern Leverkusen.

Guillermo Rai (27:29)

Yeah, it's funny because Fernando Carrot at the Laureus Awards was very, very open and he spoke about Jonathan as well. He said every time I came into the dressing room, I asked Jonathan what is going to happen with him, if he's joining this club or the other. Well, as far as I know, Jonathan Ta was closer to Barcelona than Real Madrid. It's true that there has been some reports related to the Jonathan TA's option. Coming to Real Madrid because he's a free agent is like the classical or the typical move.

IO Akinwalere (28:09)

That's a Madrid signing right there. Yeah, that's right.

Guillermo Rai (28:11)

That's what I. I was going so it's true that it's an option and it's an interesting one. But I don't think he has. With all due respect but he has like the Real Madrid level and that's why there has been like some doubts and the club has been hesitated. But it's true that there has been some links. But not only Jonathan Ta, of course we are talking about Florian Births is probably the jewel of the team. I see it as a difficult move because of the price. Of course it will be up to 100 million euros. There are more clubs behind him. I think Alonso coming in to Real Madrid will help some players probably to get closer to the real is the truth. But we have to see every, every scenario, every case in Florian woods case. I don't see it because of the price and Real Madrid last latest moves that have been free agents as we. We have been talking or other. Other cases. Yeah, yeah.

IO Akinwalere (29:19)

I mean Vert is an interesting one Thomas, isn't he? Especially with Tony Cruz that. That gaping hole clearly in the midfield. And also Luca Modric was going to be like 40 odd now. I mean he can't last forever. But that, that would be really fascinating if he. If it is Jabby Alonso because we've seen just. And I think Seb Safa Blue spoke about this, how influential Vert is to the system that Alonso plays.

Thomas Gil Lopez Manchero (29:43)

Yeah, I think Wirtz is probably a more attacking player than Kroos, you'd have to say. And with so many superstar forwards, I mean, I don't doubt that Wirtz would bring something very different to those players. Vinicius, Mbappe, Rodrigo as well, Bellingham. But I do think it's probably further back that Madrid have the problems in defense, in defensive midfield. You know, Tchouameni is a player who seems to be growing into his place a bit more in the team actually, despite these. These recent struggles of. Of the side. But even so, you know, Madrid have struggled to replace Gross and you're always going to struggle to replace a player like that. I think that's probably where they need to look. Central defense as well. Although as Guillermo says, I'm sure chubby Alonso can use, you know, his sort of links as well. I'm sure that Aura will help attract some players to the club or you know, attract some. Some players into the club's orbit if they needed that at all. Because you know, Madrid still remain that. That big draw for lots of players.

IO Akinwalere (30:37)

Yeah, massive. Look, we mentioned there's still lots to play for for Madrid in particular. Well, we'll see how that looks at the end of this weekend. But you know, they can still cut the gap to Barca back to four points if they win against Qatafi tonight. Look, they also have the classico. Ancelotti would want to make sure if he is to leave, you know, he, he surely leaves on a high with something in the cabinet.

Guillermo Rai (31:01)

Yeah, and it won't be a bad season if they end up lifting two titles. Even if it's not the Champions League, then La Liga and Copa Re are not too bad. I mean, it's a good season, that's for sure. The point is that he's in really real need. I mean, if Ancelotti lose for any instance, the Copa del Rey Tato and they lose La Liga before the end of La Liga season, there are still six games to be played. Then his future could be decided sooner than the season ends. That's why it's also important for Carlo. That's why everyone is paying attention to every Real Madrid wrestle right now and from now to the end of the season. And that's why the body is also attentive to every game. Now is every game is a final. Is. Is the right thing to say.

Thomas Gil Lopez Manchero (31:58)

Yeah, it's crazy to think that, you know, winning La Liga in the Copa del Rey would be not a bad season for Madrid compared to other clubs. But I think Guillermo is totally right. Like the Champions League ultimately is the does feel like the be all and end all for, for this club. I think in one off games against Barca, the pessimism among fans will be that they've lost four nil and five two this season already. The first time Barca put four goals past them in, in consecutive games. And so you wonder in that, in that one off Copa del Rey final that they definitely have to be considered underdogs on Saturday. Then you've got the, the May 11th Classico, another one off game. As much as Barca could, could drop points between now and the end of the season that, you know, the direction travel really seems to be that they are winning everything. Even last night against an inspired Mallorca goalkeeper, they still, they still managed to eke out a 10 win. And meanwhile Madrid are kind of struggling. They're still in there, but yeah, it's hard to see how the, how the tide is turned, but they're still, they're still in it in both competitions.

IO Akinwalere (32:57)

Very quickly, Guillermo, before you go, I'm just thinking about the brand of La Liga and I'm not here to ask you to talk ill of Real Madrid, but surely for the brand of La Liga, it's great that Barcelona come back. Maybe Real Madrid come back the season after. So it's not just one team that is winning everything. You know what I mean? Considering the narrative we've had on Barcelona the last couple of seasons for the league, at least it's good that perhaps that Real Madrid don't win it all this season.

Guillermo Rai (33:23)

Yeah, it's true. But if you see like the last seasons, you take a view last time that Real Madrid have won two La Ligas in a row. It has been in 2007 and 2008. So almost 20 years, two decades.

IO Akinwalere (33:40)

Good point.

Guillermo Rai (33:41)

Barcelona have been more successful in the last 20 years because of Leo Messi. Of course, maybe now with Laminal they are success successful as well. But for Real Madrid have been tremendously difficult to to win two La Liga in a row. So I wouldn't say that if Madrid come back and win La Liga, we shouldn't say, okay, La Liga have less credit or, you know, is overpriced. Overvalued is more a thing of. Okay, there are two big, big teams, Real Madrid and Barcelona, of course, and the distance between them and the race is so high. That probably is the is that is what make us feel that like La Liga have less credit, but still is. I think that it has been a magnificent season. Very, very competitive. And that's why we are still discussing about this even though we are close to the end of the season.

IO Akinwalere (34:37)

It has been a really interesting season in La Liga. Gents, let's leave it there. Thomas, Guillermo, thank you so much for your time and also thank you guys for listening. We'll be back tomorrow. The Athletic FC podcast network.