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- [00:01]
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- [01:15]
Chris Wath
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- [03:09]
Ayo Akimwalere
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimwalere Alexander Isak is adamant he won't play for Newcastle again. So what next? Are there any glimmers of hope for Eddie Howe and his side ahead of the new season? While joining us for this one we have Chris Wath, Jacob Whitehead and also Seb Stafford Blois as well. All right, big news from David Ornstein in today's deal sheet. It's the athletics understanding that Isak is adamant he will never represent Newcastle again and he has no desire to reintegrate into the squad. Right, let's get the latest from David.
- [03:52]
Seb Stafford Blois
Well, we've known for quite some time that Alexander Isak wants to leave Newcastle United this summer. He hasn't been training with Eddie Howe's squad nor involved in any of their pre season matches and we don't expect him to feature in their Premier League season opener at Aston Villa on Saturday. What we're reporting today on the Athletic is a significant development in that we understand from speaking to people privy to the situation that Isak does not intend to play for Newcastle again, which is pretty stark and gives a sense of how bad this situation has become. We also believe that in his mind his Newcastle career is over and that he has no desire to reintegrate into the squad if the transfer window closes and no deal has been agreed for his departure. So it feels like a pretty unsustainable situation and needs to be resolved one way or another. In our report we state that there was conversation between Isaac and Eddie Howe two weeks before the end of last season in which he told Howe that he wants to leave. And then again Isaac called Howe following Newcastle's final game of the campaign, a defeat at home to Everton prior to flying to his homeland Sweden and reiterated this point. Newcastle stance throughout has been that Isaac is not for sale. They're not looking to trade him. But at the same time we know that they have been exploring the market for alternatives, potential replacements in the event of it happening. Which shows that there is contingency work taking place in the event of him departing St. James's Park. One thing's for certain is that we haven't heard the end of this saga just yet.
- [05:42]
Ayo Akimwalere
Chris. This is a story that just won't go away. What do you make of the situation?
- [05:46]
Chris Wath
Yeah, tell me about it. I was hoping that we weren't going to talk about Alexander Isak today but. Well the latest is that Alexander Isak did not appear in any of Newcastle's preseason games. He has been training separately from the rest of the squad because he wants to to move and wants to move to Liverpool. And Newcastle are adamant from the boardroom down as they have been throughout that Alexander Isak is not for sale. Certainly not at the initial 110 million which Liverpool offered earlier this month. Newcastle value closer to 150 million. They also believe that they need two strikers to come in before they could even contemplate Alexander Isak leaving. Because Callum Wilson who was the second striker last left on a free transfer. And essentially throughout pre season they had Willasulo's never start a Premier League match playing up front. And then it ended with Anthony Gordon a winger playing as a false 9. It looks like he is set to do that at Aston Villa in the opening game this weekend. So Isak is being quite intransigent though he seems to be trying to do all he can to force this move through. There has been no real reconciliation yet between him and the club. The club are sticking to their hard line. Alexander Isak start sticking to his hard line. And for now it just feels like this is going to drag on prob until the end of the transfer window. It's one of those very very tedious sagas which you tend to get. You tend to get one at least every summer. I think Newcastle have been surprised by how Alexander Isak has acted and how hard line he has been in this approach. But clearly he. He wants that move. His mind is made up and. And as things stand it it seems like it's gonna be very very difficult to coax him back around. But Newcastle are still leaving the door open for that. They believe that he can and will be reintegrated. But Isak and his people seem to be arguing otherwise. So it's just you speak to one side and get one and it's a complete opposite on the other.
- [07:32]
Ayo Akimwalere
Jacob, what you make of all of this? I mean I didn't see this happening. I felt Newcastle were semi in control of the situation. But now it feels like there's no redemption here.
- [07:41]
Jacob Whitehead
Yeah. And I mean to build on what Chris was saying. This essential dissonance between the two sides is what's causing loads of issue. I mean if you speak to Isaac's people they say oh well, we'd agreed that this was going to be his last season or we'd made our intention clear for a long time. And if you speak to Newcastle it's like this is news to us. We were happy to enter negotiations for a new contract and neither side are budging on that in terms of Ezak's latest or the latest update that he won't represent Newcastle again. I mean this is ultimately like a leverage question. Ezak can't really hand in a formal transfer request. He might. But at this point I guess there's a risk to that in the sense that there's financial implications to that in terms of giving up future earnings. Newcastle may think we don't want to sell but if we have this player who is our biggest asset then it's better to sell on our terms when his values as high as possible. So Isak. I'm thinking worst case I just stay. And Newcastle will eventually blink first. It's a risk, but it's one which is a card he's evidently broken out with. Three weeks of a transfer window still to go.
- [08:40]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, for sure. I mean look Seb Isak won't be the first person to put his heels down and say he wants to leave a club. I think about Harry Kane back in 2021. Inevitably Harry Kane ended up staying for another couple of years at Spurs. But I mean this is such a strange situation because it's yet again that battle between player versus club in control in this situation.
- [09:03]
Football Analyst
Yeah, nobody really. It's funny because this morning I was watching a video on YouTube about Jimmy Floyd Hasselbank leaving Leeds in 1999. So it's like 26 years ago and it's remarkable how similar that was. The amounts of money have changed of course and the means by which players express themselves have changed. But yeah, it really is nothing new. And I think the key with it, and this is really, really hard because anytime this happens, their whole group of fans who are emotionally invested in the future of what is an excellent player. You can't believe anybody ever and you're just hearing two different versions of the truth. And almost always the actual reality sits somewhere in between. And beyond a certain point it also becomes a face saving exercise with everybody trying to give, you know, their best side to, you know, the kind of the fans, the media, whoever. And it just becomes terribly, terribly messy. And in the middle of fans who of course are thinking about the season and what do we do? And then the question of, well, if he does go, what do we do after that? What do we do with the revenue? And it never, ever gets any better. And it's a saga as, as old as the game itself, really, isn't it?
- [10:11]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah. I mean, is this a conversation, Jacob, about player power versus club power? Who's actually in control here? Who holds the cards? But also you think about how social media and certain protagonists on social media can extrapolate this. I mean it sort of leaves this cauldron where fans are like, just get rid of him, you know, or clubs are like, well, we've still got an asset on our hands.
- [10:33]
Jacob Whitehead
Isaac himself hasn't necessarily been powering us through social media. It's much more sort of being played out behind closed doors and conversations with people. I think it's an interesting one about whether players have more power now because in some ways, like transfers, for example, a personal brand, they do in a lot of other ways. I think they sometimes have less in the sense of. Clubs also have the ability to shape their own narratives. And the speed that blowback can come, I think often means that players are less able to speak out about certain things, whether it's their opinion on political events which are going on in the world at the moment. And they're very limited in terms of what they can say. So power and limited areas certainly. Overall, I don't know if I'd want to be a footballer on social media today.
- [11:12]
Ayo Akimwalere
It's interesting though, Chris, isn't it? Because you know, we talk about player power, we talk about club power. In my eyes, I'm looking at Newcastle and thinking, well, he's still got how many years left on his contract? This player is a Newcastle quote unquote. Probably not the right word to say, but it really is. It's still an asset of Newcastle Football Club.
- [11:30]
Chris Wath
Yeah. And I mean you speak to people at Newcastle to The very top. And they say he's got three years left in his contract. We are going to hold him to that if we don't get the offer that we want for him. And that's where I mean Jacob was talking earlier about not handing transfer requests and the reason not to. And I get to a degree why he hasn't. But the optics of him doing what he is doing and not hand in a transfer request just fuels the sort of anger and I think that's why there's more frustrating in some ways. I actually think if you hand in a transfer request and then Newcastle ended up keeping him because a deal didn't happen, at least fans could turn around and say well he tried to do that in the right way, quote unquote. Or at least try doing that. Whereas now it just seems like I'm just going to sit on my hands, I'm not actually going to hand in a transfer request. I'll go everywhere and up to that point, but not actually doing that. And so I think the player does have a decent amount of power. But Newcastle's ownership in particular, I think there's a. At least an element of sort of wanting to save face and making sure that they aren't seen to back down. And there is also an important message that sends to other players in the squad. I know there's a concern internally that if they were to give in to Esac's demands and sort of let him go without really getting the sort of price that they would want and having replacements in the door, then what happens next summer? If it's Anthony Gordon or if it's Andrew Tonali or if it's somebody else who wants to go and Newcastle want to keep them, they. They don't want to sort of set a precedent that they feel that they could just let these, these players leave. Now every single player has. And every single player does have a sort of period where it feels like they need to go. And I do think we're at that stage with Isak. But at the same time Newcastle have been so hardline in their stance all summer that I don't think they can suddenly just buckle in that regard. And, and, and there's going to need to be a bit of to and fro from both sides. But it, it does seem. It's bizarre. It is one of those. We have this with transfers a lot where you speak to one side and get one thing and, and the, the complete opposite. But if you were to. To spend an afternoon speaking to people in. Around Alexander Isak you'd be convinced there's absolutely no chance that he stays. He's definitely going. But you speak to people in the castle. Absolutely no chance that he's going. And the reality is going to be somewhere in between. It's going to be one or the other. But there's going to have to be compromise one way. And those two positions are. Have to be mutually exclusive. They can't work together. And as things stand right now, I can't give a prediction as to where this go. I'd say I'd probably be sort of 70, 30 at this stage that he stays. Just because I don't see Newcastle signing two players of A level they would want. And Liverpool paying enough money for Newcastle to cede to that demand. But that's. That's me basing it on the fact that most of my conversations have been with people at Newcastle all summer. And they have not shifted in their position. The final three weeks of a transfer window. Things. Things do. Strange things do happen though. And positions do shift quite drastically.
- [14:09]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah. I said. You touched on something that got me thinking actually. You know, when a player kisses the badge. Are we saying we. We can't fall in love with them? We. Because by all. By all accounts I mean Newcastle in a great position. You know, they've got Champions League football. You know, they've brought a cup to the club for the first time in how many years. I mean they're in a good space to kick on. Why shouldn't a that stay on? These players, let's face it, also have their own career paths in their heads.
- [14:33]
Football Analyst
Yeah, absolutely. And I think also it always feels to me as if the level of prestige in the game exists in a little bit of a time lag. So you can be a. In Newcastle's position. Just won the league cup. You qualify for the Champions League. Wonderful club going in the right direction. Club. Very, very wealthy obviously. And yet a lot of the prestige still resides with Liverpool. Manchester United. Liverpool, obviously a slightly different case. They're running Premier League champions. They're enormously strong. Clearly a very, very talented squad. But you know, if you're Brian and Buemo who was a sort of childhood fan of Manchester United. It's still the brightest stage for whatever reason. And I think the game takes a little bit of time to. To catch up on these things. And also it's. It's a terrible cliche. But how long. Obviously a footballer's career is short. But how long is a footballer's prime? Even shorter. Maybe you get three or four Years at the height of your powers. The ability to not just play in the Champions League, but to compete in it, to go to right to the final stages, knockout rounds. And you've always got to put your yourself in a player's shoes. And it's very difficult because for us it's an unimaginable reality, right? The money, the wealth, the celebrity. It's completely unattainable for 99.9% of the population. But then you look at players, what do they want to achieve? What do they want to achieve post football? What kind financial setup are they trying to build around themselves? Who are they supporting? What are they? All of these questions and almost always you have no idea. They're like icebergs. You don't see the stuff beneath the surface. I'm not saying any of that applies to Alexander Isaac, but that is usually the context in which a lot of this stuff happens. Even normal transfers where there's no acrimony, everything's fine, you know, quick negotiation, he's a new player in four days, all that kind of stuff. But it's always worth considering and even if fans don't really want to hear it.
- [16:21]
Ayo Akimwalere
Okay, I just want to quickly press you, Chris, before we move on. On potential incoming, Adam Crafton and David Ornstein have reported that Newcastle are considering a move for Porto striker Samu Agahawa. Also, you know Nicholas Jackson's been in the frame. You said there's a likelihood that Isak does stay on. Do you think either of those two targets are enough to appease fans if they do come in and Isak goes?
- [16:46]
Chris Wath
I mean, if Isak was to go, that just has to be an acceptance that you're not going to replace him like for like. There is no like for like replacement for Alexander Isak, which is why this situation is ongoing. If Liverpool theoretically have that disposable income to be able to spend on a striker, they are going for who they see to be the very best in the world or has the potential to be the very best in the world. There certainly isn't going to be someone with 3 years Premier League experience who is of that equivalence. Now. Samo Agahawa is definitely somebody Newcastle have watched and do like. I think there's a feeling that he isn't necessarily ready for the Premier League and the potential price that it would cost to get him across would be prohibitive. The same Nicholas Jackson. I think that some aspects of his play Newcastle, like some people in Newcastle, like. But I think there are also question marks about about him and Maybe what he's done to Castle. He was. He was sent off at St. James's park for. For a sort of petulant stupid act towards the back end of last season. And that is fresh in. In the minds you are on visa. Newcastle really want to sign but he's seen as a replacement for Callum Wilson. That's been communicated as well during sort of negotiations that he isn't the replacement like for like four or. Well the. The replacement to come in in place of Alexander Isak. It would have to be a sort of mix and match approach and Newcastle are looking across Europe and across the Premier League. They like Ollie Watkins but that would be a very difficult deal to do and I think that there isn't certainly Newcastle don't want to sign two players towards the back end of the 20s in Visser and Watkins as well. The ownership would be keen instead for Newcastle to sign one of those strikers as somebody younger which makes sense again certainly in a PSR and development sort of world. So Newcastle are sing stand A believe that Isak will stay and B don't believe that they can can get replacements of a level that they would be feel was sufficient going into the start of the season. You may end up having a sort of lessened Alexander Isak as sort of. Because if he's not fully engaged even if he. Even if he does start playing again then he probably isn't going to be the Alexander Isak of last season and the season before. But equally that's better than nobody at all. And. And maybe it gives them a bit longer to really consider who they want to be their next frontline striker and then that gives them or up to January at least to try and really plot that whereas at the minute everyone realizes how desperate they are and prices are being reflected as such.
- [18:55]
Ayo Akimwalere
Okay, well I want to move on and because I want us to discuss why players are turning down Newcastle this summer. Yeah Jacob, I guess what makes the. The EC situation a little tricky as we've probably covered is that Newcastle are also struggling to bring in replacements. And Chris, please jump in after this because I'm interested to hear your perspective on this. Why do you think it's. It's quite difficult for him to land quite a few of the top targets because I mean we've. We've talked about it several times and Buemo and seven other players that they wanted and just haven't come.
- [19:34]
Jacob Whitehead
It's quite entertaining. I think Saucy Nikas have been quite aggressively briefing. Oh we've only been turned down Officially by four, Only four.
- [19:40]
Chris Wath
I mean, it's still quite a few. Who else was on the list?
- [19:44]
Jacob Whitehead
As Seb alluded to earlier, I think he's completely right. Talking about the lag with historic club size. And if you think about their really good recruitment a few years ago, when they brought in the likes of Guimaraes, Sven Botman, they weren't necessarily. They're aiming for a very high level of player, but they weren't necessarily competing with Champions League clubs. They were able to put in big demands and get them, you know, when they're fighting against maybe teams in Serie A, for example, a less budget, they aren't doing that anymore. They're now shopping, you know, in the champagne house, as it were. And that means that they come into this as a risk. There are other aspects. I mean, you know, the optics haven't been great with signing players this window, but I don't think that that's a major one. The more significant one, I. I'd say is that they are limited quite a lot on wage structure in terms of not wanting to exceed it. That's part of the reason, even last window, why. Why they didn't necessarily feel like they're able to offer Isak, for example, a huge, huge contract to stay. Because then you have your other likes, you know, you have Guimaraj and Botman and Julissa and players like that who are all at a similar sort of band. And to do that means that they all have to go up and Newcastle end up back in sort of a bit of a PSR hellhole. It all feeds off each other a bit. But ultimately I think when you're trying to break into the top six, you're breaking into them not just on the league table, but breaking into them in a brand sense as well. It's been Newcastle's big challenge for the last two years and this is another way in which it's playing out for.
- [21:10]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, Jacob makes a good point. Chris, be honest. Is the brand an issue potentially?
- [21:15]
Chris Wath
The brand is an issue to a certain degree. And it is that that Newcastle are a Champions League club for this season, but it's not that they're an established Champions League club yet. And there is still, for at least for first players, I think more coming from abroad than anything else. There's still the allure of London or Manchester. That is something which, as much as I would champion everything about the northeast of England and Newcastle and people who then move here and live here love it. That's a hard sell beforehand, particularly when you. You don't have the. The cachet of those clubs and the trophies to be able to point to. Now Jacob makes a very good point about the different market Newcastle are sort of shopping in now basically whenever they come up in competition with one of those very biggest clubs that they've missed out on these players. And you mentioned that the Newcastle are briefing about the being four players that you've turned them down. I think that's the four players that actually b who they've missed out on. There are more players. I mean Brian and Beermore for example. They didn't actually make club contact because they already knew beforehand that he didn't want to come, that he wanted to go to Manchester United. But I also think if you look at that it's a very difficult position for them being. Because you can argue in one sense that if they hadn't gone for those players they're going to be then taking a step down and they could have maybe quite easily signed players of a lower quality and then it would have seemed like a seamless transfer window and they've brought in all these players. But are they the right players that they necessarily want who they think are going to kick them on to the next level level? The difference with when they signed Bruno Guimaraes and Sando Tonali for example is that Newcastle actually have those players now. So to sign players who are either an upgrade or a level of going to push them means that it's more difficult than when you're just signing a player who is better than what they necessarily had before. And so it is a very difficult market. They're in that sort of in between time where they really need to be in the Champions League season after season. They need their general commercial revenues to keep growing so they can start offering those wages. It's the biggest cliche in football because it's true that generally the more money that is spent on wages over a longer period of time you will bring you success. And Newcastle can't compete with that. They have a very rigid wage structure because they have. That's partly the reason why we're in this situation with Alexander Isak. Because when Paul Mitchell arrived as sporting director last summer, Isak felt that he'd earned a new contract which had sort of been suggested to him he could have one. But at that point Newcastle had just had to sell players to comply with the Premier League's profit and sustainability rules to give one the highest earners an extended contract when at the time he had four years left on it just did not make any Financial sense from a club who want to bring in better players going forward. They hadn't signed any players for three transfer windows before this window that's just arrived. I actually think the business they've done has been good business. Malik Chao should should be announced imminently as a center back. They've brought in Anthony Alanga who I think is an upgrade or certainly pushes Jacob Murphy in the right wing. They're two problem positions long term they've needed to solve and they've also brought in Aaron Ramsdale as a backup goalkeeper who may push Nick Port for number one. The problem is that they don't have a center forward and they can't score goals. So it looks like that they glaring a mission at the top end of the pitch but and the rest of the rest of the the field I think they actually have decent competition now. It's just making sure they have that final part and it doesn't feel. It's going to feel like this window is unfinished because either they're going to have a diminished Alexander Isak or they're going to have scrambled around to, to bring in a couple of players which will be a relative gamble because they just don't think there's anyone who, who can offer anything close to Alexander Isak can.
- [24:35]
Ayo Akimwalere
Seb I'll be honest, I worry like that Newcastle aren't able to bring in players but I also have to commend the work that Eddie Howe's done. Chris has talked about, you know, barely bringing in players over the last three transfer windows and look where they're at right now. You know, we look at the cup that they've won, look at the fact that they climbed up the table and look at the fact that they're in the Champions League which is exactly where they want to be. He's been known to better players, you know, Isak being one of them. Do you think he's also a bit of a problem? Like I guess Guardiola comes calling and the conversation might be slightly different, for.
- [25:10]
Football Analyst
Instance, I mean versus every coach. Guardiola has an advantage because I mean he's an icon of the game. He's a high priest of this generation of football. So that's never a fair fight. Eddie Howe was talking a couple of days ago and I was listening to him. I think it was in response to a question about Isaac and he said, and I'm paraphrasing his answer but he said look, if you look at all the players that have come through, the very few players that haven't got better or haven't benefited from being here. And players who've come to Newcastle have done great things. And I think he makes a really good point. Sandro Tonali, Bruno Gumares. Gumarsch was not what he is now before he arrived from Lyon and he's clearly developed under Eddie Howe. And I think also Chris mentioned him but Jacob Murphy. Jacob Murphy was thought of really as a kind of a championship player. And now he's comfortably of a kind of a mid to higher mid table level in the Premier League. I just think that it's never about an individual coach necessarily unless it's a Guardiola type person or a Mourinho in the past. It's more the whole package. And I think the other thing here is that if you're a player and think of a player as a sort of an industry in his own right and he's got commercial agreements or he wants to have them and he's thinking about the platform he could have and what he could do with his level of performance as it is not sort of theoretically how he might improve. It's very hard to compete with these kind of prestige clubs. At Manchester United versus Newcastle we just had that with Benjamin Shesco. It just doesn't really matter that Manchester United don't look very well coached and the stadium isn't in particularly good condition and there are protests against the ownership.
- [26:47]
Chris Wath
Certainly if you speak to anyone at Bournemouth or Newcastle they would absolutely wax lyrical about Eddie how. But whether that reputation has extended beyond certainly England and into Europe is something which I think it probably hasn't yet. Newcastle's one season the Champions League that didn't progress from the group stage. If they do well this year might be different but. But just a story about when Sandro Tonali was. Was convinced to join Newcastle. He really needed some convincing to begin with. And it was actually I'm told one of the conversations he had with Eddie Howe which wowed him because Howe didn't walk into the or didn't speak to him. I don't know if was in over the phone or in the room. He didn't just say to him though you are. You are wonderful. I just want you to sign. He said you're great. But he actually said these are all of the areas I will improve you. I will make you the one of the best midfielders in Europe because I can improve you here. I can improve you here. I can improve you here. And Tonali and I've heard this about several other players was sort of stunned about the fact that the amount of due diligence that had been done on him and also the fact that it wasn't just I'll blow smoke up your backside, this is where I will improve you. And, and maybe that doesn't work for all players. Maybe some players just have the ego, certainly at that sort of level where they just want to be told you're wonderful, you come here. But anyhow, because he, because he is so meticulous that, that he will say this is where we're going to make you even better. And so in that sense I think he has actually been someone who has attracted players to Newcastle. It's been the opposite effect for at least some of them. But. But I'm not saying that there haven't been examples where perhaps, you know, certain the way that it's worked out this summer, the clubs and maybe even other coaches have been able to convince players ahead of Newcastle. But certainly Eddie Howe has had big success with one of Newcastle's very best players.
- [28:17]
Football Analyst
It's worth remembering also right that when a transfer takes place, as we all know, there's a conversation which happens in the background and it happens sometimes for months in advance and it involves people that aren't necessarily always seen as the figurehead of a club. So if you think about the Shusko situation, so Newcastle without a sporting director, without a CEO, dealing with an agent who was a little bit idiosyncratic, had his quirks and had a way that he imagined the process would go, which we've reported in our kind of background to that Manchester United transfer. And think about kind of the different approaches there and the different people involved. So Newcastle as an outsider, I'm sure Chris and Jake will be able to correct me. Not really sure who the kind of the prominent voice in that conversation is for Manchester United beyond Matt Hargreaves, you've also got. And Jason Wilcox, you've also got Christopher Weievel who signed Sesko twice in the past. He always been a big part and a big driving force in his career. Both in bringing him to EBI Salzburg and then promoting him really to EBI Leipzig. You need to get that stuff right. And I'm not saying that kind of things like the city you live in and the stage you play on and the size that all that stuff isn't important. But those bits matter too. Like the conversation you're having and the sell is super important to make players feel comfortable. I remember I was reporting on a transfer earlier this summer involved a player who was moving to a club in the Premier league and he was very, very keen on it because it involved working with someone who'd been quite prominent in his youth career and someone he felt he trusted and someone who when they told him, hey, this is how we imagine the next couple of years going and you're creating career believe them because they've worked before and he's, you know, he's been proven correct to this point and these little bits, they matter and also they take time to develop. Like when you've grown as quickly as Newcastle have and they're kind of from being where they were to being a champs league contender sometimes it takes a little bit of time for those things to catch up. Same way as the kind of the time lag around the prestige that it's all part of the same problem, I think.
- [30:20]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah. And one thing that just popped to mind as Seb was saying that Chris was something that Jacob brought up earlier was the idea of optics. There's no CEO, there's no sporting director. Like you know, you want to come join a team that says they're ambitious and they're big and they want to go places but those things aren't sort of already in place. You know, those optics can't be great necessarily for someone who now wants to join this club because you want to see all that joined upness to know that everyone's moving in the right direction.
- [30:49]
Chris Wath
Yeah, I mean there's an irony here that Newcastle actually under Mike Ashley did operate without a C or a sporting director previously. So if there was a club who theoretically. Well yeah, if there's a club who theoretically could, could maybe get away with it, it would be Newcastle. But if you're wanting to be, I mean last year Newcastle had a tumultuous summer in a different way. And that was because there was an idea that they had to. They wanted to professionalize the structure. They wanted to make it more of an executive level structure. And Amanda Staveley who'd been operating as, as corner but essentially as a sort of de facto second CEO left and then instead there was a structure that was brought in which, which had the sporting director and seemingly Eddie Howe was going to be moved more into that. He has been head coach throughout but really his power was almost going to be checked to a certain degree and that they wouldn't be as heavily involved in transfers as summer on and it's basically the complete opposite because that structure isn't there anymore. Darren Eels, the CEO has very unfortunately had to leave his position because he suffered a medical condition, a chronic medical condition. He needed to receive treatment. And the sporting director, Paul Mitchell, resigned and left on June 30th. So instead Newcastle have been working with the sort of interim transfer team which involves Andy Howe, Eddie Howe's nephew, who's assistant head of recruitment, and also Steve Nixon, who is the head of recruitment and then also Eddie Howe himself. And so it doesn't feel like a quote unquote, modern structure. It doesn't feel like you would have that at most of the very biggest clubs in the world that there wouldn't be these people in those positions, particularly for a transfer window as important as this. And the sort of almost jokes within football that you speak to people within football and they say, well, who actually would make the decision on Alexander Isak not being sold? Because who do you speak to? And it is almost at boardroom level. Eddie Howe has said that publicly it's going to be a boardroom level because there isn't someone who's making those decisions right now. And so the optics of that aren't great. I certainly don't think that it's been fair on anyone at the club that's had to operate in this way. And lessons need to be learned. And PIF would probably argue, I mean they never speak, but then Newcastle's majority owners, they would probably argue that every decision they make is very process driven is the buzzword buzz sentence that we hear all the time here, which basically means things take a long time, they make decisions over them. And the next CEO who is almost it's likely to be David Hopkinson, who was previously at Real Madrid as an executive but has also worked in North America at some of the very biggest groups there, certainly on the business side. And then the next sporting director we expect is likely to be Ross Wilson, who's currently in Nottingham Forest as their chief football officer. That they would argue that we've waited for the right people and if we get the right people in place longer term that will work. But that hasn't worked up till this stage. Newcastle have burned through two sporting directors in the last two years. They've obviously needed a new CEO, which was for unfortunate circumstances, but they actually need some longevity, they need direction. And at the moment it's difficult to know exactly what this quote unquote project is because there just aren't the people there to really set those long term goals in place beyond the footballing side.
- [33:44]
Jacob Whitehead
It's been emphasized over and over the delay. I've heard from sources at the top of pif and it doesn't help that Yassir Rahman is ultimately the man needs to make these decisions. He's extremely high up in the Saudi hierarchy. He's chairman of Aramco. He's very close with mbs. He's got about a billion other jobs including live golf. And this is the man all decisions have to go through. And you know, even though this is seen as being his. Newcastle is his project. His baby within pif. How high is it towards the top of his agenda? How quickly is he gonna be signing off on the likes of David Hopkinson, Ross Wilson? Like this is essentially what the delay is. And it's so optimal for Newcastle.
- [34:22]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, definitely is. All right Seb. I know you've got to go but really appreciate you joining us on the pod. Well, I know we've been a bit negative but let's hope the next part can give us a bit of hope for what's next for Newcastle in the season to come. I mean it's not been a great summer. We know that Newcastle failed to win in their last six pre season games as well. But are there any signs of optimism for their fans to cling on to? Jacob, Come on. Give us some hope.
- [34:57]
Jacob Whitehead
Chris made a really good point earlier that if you take the Isaac situation out of it there are clear upgrades in a number of positions and that is the case. It is just a huge lingering thing of Alexander Isaac. But this is a team who are still on the up over the last three or four seasons. So much. I mean last season Newcastle did not start with well. And the mood around the team is so quickly changed by that. If they. If they get off to a strong start and you know, win three or four of the first five games and it's going to shift so quickly. But like we're really. We're really quickly going to be lost if minutiae of VR decisions before through three that you know there is reason for confidence if Newcastle back it up ultimately.
- [35:37]
Ayo Akimwalere
Well, little sprinkles of hope there. Chris Elanga is another one of course. And also Malik the as well potentially close to completing a deal. I mean. I mean they have to be more players coming in before the window closes surely.
- [35:52]
Chris Wath
Without doubt. Newcastle. Definitely. Even if Alexander Isak stays, Newcastle need another striker. Because at the moment Willisula, as I said earlier hasn't started a Premier League match. And he started the first few preseason games. You can see he's still very raw. That's the thing he's basically been defined by during his first year or so in Newcastle. But he's just not ready to lead the line in the Premier League if he ever and indeed will be the the backup number nine Newcastle I've is Shaun Neave who's an exciting 18 year old prospect but he's. He's not made a. He's ironically has it again has a League cup winners medal but hasn't actually made a first team competitive appearance yet. And Anthony Gordon is going to be leading the line which is certainly not ideal. So in that position they do they also need another midfielder ideally because Sean Longstaff has left and I think it was probably the right time for him to go. And Newcastle have made a PSR benefit from the fact that he's an academy graduate and the money they've banked there albeit not a huge fee but the close to 15 million means that they can use all of that to reinvest and but they have Champions League football this season. Eddie Howe plays with three midfielders and Joe Willock is already going to be missing the next month with an injury. Joel Linton's injury record hasn't been brilliant. They need at least one of the number eight to come in there. I actually think when Jacob mentioned whether a team can have a good or bad start the season we've seen that over the last two years with Newcastle that a couple of years ago they had a poor start after actually hammering Aston villa on the first day of 5 1. They then went on a difficult run and it sor of seeped in the rest of the season. Whereas in other years when last year they actually started quite well results wise if the performances weren't then that sort of momentum can snowball. Either way Newcastle's fixture list looks very difficult to begin with. I've got Villa away in Liverpool at home but actually if you were to pick a game for Anthony Gordon to be a sort of false 9 in I think Aston Villaroa wouldn't necessarily be the worst one. If if you were at home against a side you had to sort of break down I think it would be worse. But if Newcastle can use that pace of Barnes and and. And. And then Anthony Elanga and Anth break through the middle of Aston Villa player high line I don't think that's necessarily the worst match for that to be approaching. Then Newcastle host Liverpool at St James's park and that is going to be absolutely febrile atmosphere it's going to be. There's no motivation Newcastle will need given the summer that they've had so far. So everyone is going to be on their side and that is a very very Difficult match against the champions. But for them to walk into that atmosphere, I think that will really kick Newcastle on a gear. So I'm trying to pick the positives out of that there what look like two very, very daunting fiction years. But at the same time I do actually think they have a pretty good chance in both of them.
- [38:21]
Ayo Akimwalere
Okay, before we go, what's the expectation for Newcastle this season, gents? You know I'm sure the hierarchy will be having conversations with Eddie Howell. He's pulling his hair out saying give me some more time to get some players through the door.
- [38:34]
Chris Wath
But what.
- [38:34]
Ayo Akimwalere
What's the expectation?
- [38:35]
Jacob Whitehead
I think some of it depends on how self aware the board are that they're the ones who have caused some of the issues with their delays appointing a CEO and sporting director by which you'd hope that Eddie Howe would be given a bit more grace race. I think realistically the expectation has to be to aim to qualify for the Champions League again. Obviously it's even tougher this year in the sense that there's more games which will stretch the squad even more. And we saw what impact that had two seasons ago. But continued progress has to I guess be the ideal and that's what would represent that continued progress.
- [39:05]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah. What do you think, Chris?
- [39:07]
Chris Wath
I think that. I mean last year the stated goal from the CEO and the sporting director was European football. I mean there is no CEO sporting director now. So who would set that goal right now is sort of difficult, difficult to find. But I think that they would. It would be similar again. I don't think there's necessarily the expectation that Newcastle have to get back in the Champions League. That would be the desire, but I don't think that's necessarily the expectation. I think a sort of top six, top seven finish, hopefully have another cup run and then certainly get through the first stage of the Champions League. It's. It's different two years ago when Newcastle had the glamour ties but actually had the sort of quote unquote group of Death within the Champions League and didn't end up getting through it in the end. Just missed out on the last day and didn't even get into Europa League as you used to drop down into. Whereas now the new format I think suits Newcastle. They are probably going to be one of the lowest ranked seeds but actually that works against other sides because you have to play two teams in each of the four seed pots regardless of what seed you are. And so other sides will be getting Newcastle as the lowest ranked seed and that'll be more difficult than a lot of the other lowest ranked seeds. So I think Newcastle have a very good chance of getting in that top sort of 24 and then hopefully having that two legged tie and maybe even progressing further in the Champions League. If they can do similar to what Aston Villa have done this year, I think that would represent a very good season for Newcastle. But to do that they're going to need to find some goals from somewhere. Whether that's basically coaxing Alexander Isak to play at 70% for the season in a huff or whether that's they sell him and they do find some sort of stopgap solution this year up front and then really think about how they're going to address that going forward. Forward.
- [40:40]
Jacob Whitehead
One more reason for optimism if I interject.
- [40:43]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, go for it.
- [40:43]
Jacob Whitehead
Pod on the Tyne being relaunched this week. If you want more Newcastle content, both in optimism, in sickness and in health.
- [40:52]
Ayo Akimwalere
Right. I think we did it there. Bit of optimism for you Newcastle fans. Jacob, thank you so much for your time. Seb, thanks for joining us earlier. And also Chris, thank you for joining us on the Pod as well. That's it from us. We're back soon.
- [41:07]
Chris Wath
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroot and Jay Beal.
- [41:13]
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The executive producer was Aimee Morehead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC podcast is an athletic.
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