Podcast Host (Ad Read) (2:36)

Esmeer Baraktarovic can send Bosnia and Herzegovina

Felipe Cardenas (2:40)

to the World cup.

Ayo Akimolere (2:42)

And he does. It got underneath Dotaruma. The Italian curse continues. Bosnia and Herzegovina will play in the FE for World Cup.

James Horncastle (2:52)

Janaro Gatto was close to tears throughout his postmatch media duties here in Zenitsa. He had spoken about having an entire nation on his back, particularly generations of young Italians, kids, teenagers, who had never seen their team at a World Cup. And he felt that burden dearly. And thinking about what it would be like to carry Italy over the line and get them to a first World cup in 12 years, and for that not to happen in Bosnia hurt him immensely. Italy got themselves in front and they silenced a very lively, hostile crowd. And then Alessandro Bastoni got sent off. And while Bosnia did equalize and take the game to extra time, Italy, in Gattuso's words, played with more heart than he had seen in years. And even when they got to penalties, there was still some belief among this Italy team because Gigi Donnarumma was the hero when Italy won the Euros. All too quickly forgotten achievement five years ago, he was the penalty shootout hero against England in the final. But even he couldn't stop the penalties that he faced from Bosnia. In Italy this morning, they've been calling for the resignation of the Italian Football Federation president, Gabriele Gardiner. As for Gattuzzo and the sporting director of the national team legend Gigi Buffon, they said last night that they want to take time before making a decision on their future and that they will make it at the end of this season in June as to whether they continue in their roles or not.

Ayo Akimolere (4:37)

Yeah, huge thanks to James Horncastle for that. I know he was up till really late to send us that super emotional night for Italy, the players and also the coach, Gattuso, Felipe, look, these are the first ever former champions to miss out on three World Cups in a row. I mean, I'm going to ask you how they recover from this. But also, I mean, how long does Gattuso and Buffon have a job? Moving on.

Felipe Cardenas (4:59)

Yeah, I don't know how anyone can stay on in the roles after this. You know, obviously at this level of international football, the stakes are so high. And, you know, Italy put themselves in this position. So, you know, Gattuso, the federation president, everyone that has any decision maker in that ecosystem had to have known that last Night may have been their last night in the job, or they could have made history and become, you know, sort of the class that got Italy back to the World Cup. You know, listening to James Horncastle, the hope that Italy felt during the penalty shootout, I think from, from afar I was watching the game at a bar in Atlanta before, you know, heading to the stadium here. I had no hope for Italy. I, I don't know what it was. It. It was such a poor feeling throughout that game when Bastoni, who I really felt made a really poor decision to, to get that red card. I mean, this is one of the better defenders in Europe. You know, a Champions League level level defender. If you watch the replay, I really think he could have escorted that attacker out of bounds or, or made any other decision to do that, but it just felt like that deflated the team. And yes, you know, Donna Roma has, was a hero five years ago, but the history of Italy and penalties obviously is not always positive. So, you know, I felt, I felt, I feel horrible for Italy. But, you know, this is a trend and sometimes trends are really difficult to, to reverse.

Ayo Akimolere (6:22)

Yeah. The World cup qualification or going to the World cup is a dream. And more than 20% of the people in the world weren't alive when Italy last played at the World cup in 2014. I don't know where we got that stat from, but it's an unbeliev.

Felipe Cardenas (6:35)

Believable one.

Ayo Akimolere (6:36)

But, you know, given the teams we've seen and the, the great players we've seen historically, what can we look at to signal this kind of fall from grace or this decline?

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (6:46)

That was a stat from Will Jeans in our editorial department, who has just that amazing way of bringing up stats. And you feel like an absolute dagger to your chest when it involves your team. I believe there was another stat that the last time Italy played a World cup knockout game was the World cup Final in 2006, which predates the iPhone, and so on and so on and so forth. The last goal scored by Italy at a World cup was scored by Mario Balotelli in the 2014 World cup against England, I believe. So the statistics pile up. It makes a grim reading for anyone of an Italian persuasion. And it's not just those based in Italy, but also, I mean, this is a World cup in North America. If you are of the Italian American diaspora. I mean, there's going to be a World cup final in New Jersey, east

Ayo Akimolere (7:34)

coast especially, you know. Yeah.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (7:36)

You think about people in Toronto right now and the huge Italian population in Toronto and how they're going to be without what they thought would be an amazing World cup opportunity. So it's brutal. Part of me is going, oh, now Donna Rimmer wants to have a bad penalty shootout. Great.

Ayo Akimolere (7:53)

Cheers, mate.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (7:54)

Couldn't do that in Wembley in 2021. Nice one. It is frankly bizarre how this Italian team has routinely got to very, very big games in World cup qualification over the last 12 years and not been able to meet the moment. And yet when you watch their highlights from Euro 2020, it makes perfect sense. They won it. Like, you can absolutely understand why that team eventually overcame everyone and became European champions. This is just the strange way international football works and how certain national teams peak at different times. Italian football, at least in Serie A, is quite entertaining to watch, but it does not bring in the money or the viewership or the young fans in the same way that the Premier League especially is able to do. And what is left for Italian football if they're not able to compete with the best of the best, as they see? So what is left is just this oddity in that I watched the highlights yesterday and I saw Moise Khan, who I think is a very, very good striker and has done well to rebuild his career after a pretty difficult time at Everton. You know, he' very well at Florentina since, scores a very good goal. And you're thinking, this is it. Italy's going to lock in and meet this moment and finally overcome. And then when you get this red card, you're going, that was. It was an immature red card, Felipe. Is that fair to say?

Felipe Cardenas (9:09)

I think so. There are moments in football, you know, I remember the, the final, the Copa America in 2024. Last minute of extra time. Lotaro Martinez breaks through for. For Argentina. Carlos Questa, defender for Colombia. Could have taken him out, you know, could have taken him out and gotten a red card and, and sacrificed himself. And you go to penalties, and to this day, Colombians are like, why didn't you not take down Laro Martinez? And this was not the same situation. You know, you watch that. I watched the game yesterday and Bastoni makes a mistake and I mentioned the type of the caliber of player he is, and that I think that really sums up Italy because, you know, is Bostoni your biggest name? Like, who is their biggest name? Who is their star? Like, who is it they don't have Alessandro De Piero, there's no Totti, you know, there's no Pirlo anymore. And when I'm watching them against Bosnia, even before the red carpet, certainly after the red card. It was as if Italy went into this shell, but a shell that they are proud of. We are going to suffer. We are going to sit here and battle and suffer because it's Calcio and this is what we do. We are Italy. And you know that there's. That leaves you with such a fine margin for error. And they were just overwhelmed. Bosnia was, was incessant. They were relentless and they really broke Italy's back when they went into the penalties again. I did not think the Italians had the spirit left to do it. And you could tell by some of the penalties they were crashing them off the bar. They were, they weren't thinking, they weren't, they weren't methodical. And so in the end, I think that really summed up this generation of Italian football.

Ayo Akimolere (10:51)

I don't know if you saw the tifo by the Bosnian fans by the way, at the end, showing that the visa full time for the usa, which I thought was really nice. We have to give them kudos. Second time they've ever qualified for the World Cup. You know, you saw what it meant on the field and there's a lot of heart that went into that and a great penalty shootout as well. I mean this is a team in the previous playoff round that looked very robust and went into penalties again. So look, Felipe, give them their kudos. Hats off to them.

Felipe Cardenas (11:18)

They have quality, they have quality. They are a rugged team. You know, I think this Bosnian team was offended honestly by the video that was circulated through social media with some of the Italian players appearing to celebrate when Wales was eliminated and they were set to face Bosnia. I mean, I think this is a culture that is really thick skinned, that is very proud. And these are the moments that they live for. Taking down a giant in front of the world. And you talk about the penalties, they were so good, you know, the, the player who scored the winner, Esmeer Baraktarovich. I hope I say your last name correctly. Wisconsin born player, American born. American bread developed in the United States. But a Bosnian and a player who has said over the last year that he had always felt Bosnian. He got a cap with the, with the US men in 2024 before Pochettino took over. And what a player he is. A left footed number 10, a creative player. One of the best players on the pitch yesterday played the entire 120 minutes. A 21 year old. That tells you the confidence that you know, the manager has in him. He's trying rabonas in this in the second extra time.

Ayo Akimolere (12:33)

I saw that. I mean A little bit. It's got.

Felipe Cardenas (12:37)

It was poorly, poorly taken. He sent it out of bounds. But you're thinking this is the 117th minute. You know the nation is on your back and this, this kid's trying this and then he goes up to take the decisive penalty and you know what he did? He took a no look penalty. I mean that is confidence. You mentioned the visa tifo and you know the player that sends them on is, is a dual national. So it's just an incredible story for Bosnia.

Ayo Akimolere (13:04)

If we talk about Italian stars, Felipe doesn't think there are many in that team, if any. We have to talk about Sandro Tonali. Kyle. I guess he was the leader on the field. Italy star now playing in Newcastle. Do we see him staying on at Newcastle? He's been linked to quite a lot of teams and he's not going to the World Cup. So let's get that deal done super early.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (13:27)

Really interesting. Basically since the start of January just a really interesting trajectory in his career. We got to the end of the January transfer window and then all of a sudden David Ornstein reports that his what essentially he'd been offered to Arsenal towards the final hours of the January transfer window which all of our eyebrows were not going. Excuse me. Newcastle apparently were more or less caught by surprise by this. So it felt agent led more so than anything. And it feels like whatever project or whatever he's been told that Newcastle trying to do has doesn't quite fit Tonali or Tonali's team and what they'd like to do. And therefore there are now multiple clubs in the Premier League that are interested in taking him on. Tonal's interesting play in that I think this is going to be the summer of the number six. This is going to be the summer where multiple football clubs are going to try and buy their version of Rodri. Manchester United will be looking for one. Manchester City might be looking for a player to either replace Rodri or at least play next to Rodri. I think Liverpool try and get someone in for that position to take some of the burden of Gravenberg and Mac Allister and Tonali seems to be creeping up the list for loads of people if only because everyone sort of realized the Premier League VAT that's going to be attached to Elliot Anderson. Very interesting summer for him. I hope he gets to move to a club where he can play to his best ability if that makes sense. I don't want to see him shoehorned in to not his best position and I don't want him. I don't just because he's got a great engine. I don't just want to see him doing doggies all season because there's a good creative player in there too. There's more than just a kick rush. Buzzsaw midfielder Fascinating football player. Want to see more?

Podcast Host (Intro/Outro) (15:07)

This is the Athletic FC Podcast with Ayo Accumulere. This episode of the Athletic FC podcast is sponsored by Pebble Now One thing no one tells you about hiring globally is how unclear the company costs can be. It looks simple at first, but then the fees start stacking up while pebble brings clarity with upfront all in hiring costs and enables you to hire the world. Pebble is an AI powered global human resources platform built for founders, HR leaders and operators who are hiring and supporting teams worldwide. Pebble helps you hire, pay and manage talent in over 185 countries with fast onboarding that can be done in minutes. Instead of juggling separate tools for companies, contracts, payroll, benefits and compliance, pebble brings everything together with built in guidance and local expertise to support you, which is especially helpful if you're managing teams internationally or planning to grow. The fastest growing companies in the world use pebble to stay organized and reduce risk and founders use it to scale faster without feeling like they need to become HR or compliance experts. The Bottom Line pebble simplifies global people operations so you can spend more time growing your business and supporting your your team. Pebble's new standard discounted price at $399 per month per employee helps you contain costs. So go to Hypl AI to get a free estimate. That's H I P E B L A I for a free estimate one last time High pebble AI.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (16:33)

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Ayo Akimolere (17:45)

Well, let's talk about Sweden, who go into Group F in the World cup with Japan, Netherlands and also Tunisia as well. Look, it was a big night for them. Victor Yokerez, 88th minute winner, saw them through with a 32 win over Poland. It was actually quite a good game if you if you managed to catch it. Jacob Whitehead was on hand to witness the magic.

Jacob Whitehead (18:05)

Hello. It's past midnight in Stockholm. I've just got back to my hotel after Victor Gjokares fired Sweden to the World cup in the very last minute of the game. It was a thriller, to be honest. It was a 32 victory. Sweden got ahead twice, Poland stayed in it. They really took over the game in the second half after equalizing on the hour and should have won. Gyokorez was sort of back in his own penalty area, heading the ball away. Bergwaer was often the furthest player forward, but the ball eventually spilled out to the right and this really was the Golmer scramble to end all go scrambles. There's about three different shots on goal, hit the post twice and eventually the ball found Gilkerz. He used his junk to fight off the defender, chested it down and hoofed it into the roof of the net. Relief for Sweden, who gets in through the back door after losing every game in qualifying but making it in for the Nations League playoffs. They haven't made a major tournament since reaching the quarter finals of the 2018 World Cup. Vindication for Graham Potter, who's obviously gone through his difficulties at West Ham and at Chelsea and Stockholm is really a party town.

Ayo Akimolere (19:25)

Yeah, I mean, I didn't really see this one coming. Gents. Graham Potter, I mean, a man that was relieved of his duty at Chelsea, relieved of his duties at West Ham, now headed to the World cup for the first time in his coaching career with Sweden. I mean, who's writing this man's script? But this is why we love football. Right, Karl, in through the back door, you're still at the World Cup.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (19:44)

It's one of the most ridiculous paths to qualifications. So no victories in the World cup qualifications qualification group, two draws, but you get a playoff spot because you topped your Nations League group. And then via that playoff spot, you've now won enough games to get in. Look, you beat who's in front of you and. And Sweden did it at the correct time. This is a true.

Felipe Cardenas (20:09)

I was. I was waiting for that. When did they beat the. The person in front of time?

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (20:13)

This is.

Ayo Akimolere (20:14)

This is.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (20:14)

This is a fantastic example of. It's a fantastic example of working smart and not harder.

Ayo Akimolere (20:19)

Exactly.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (20:20)

I am.

Felipe Cardenas (20:20)

I am sure, though.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (20:22)

I'm sure there's more than one Italian football fan going, hang on, what? Looking at Sweden. But look, they got it done. They got it done in the end. Graham Potter's had just the most remarkable 24 months. It feels remiss the difficulties he had at West Ham. No, let's spell it out. West Ham fans face swapped Graham Potter into a variety of memes to the point where he had to be asked about it in a press conference. And then a week after he gave a response about this widely viral form of mockery, he was then sacked. And a West Ham team that just looked absolutely dreadful at the start of this season and had no idea how to defend set pieces. And then he gets a reprieve after really surreal situation with the Swedish national team and then to bring up that World cup qualification record because they didn't win a game. Something I want to point out, Sweden don't sack head coaches. It is incredibly rare across their history as a national team for them to sack a head coach. And this was the first sacking in more than. I want to say at least two generations that they've sacked the head coach and then they've gone for Graham Potter because of the great work he did. He did.

Felipe Cardenas (21:29)

Yeah.

Ayo Akimolere (21:30)

Back there in the league, in the.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (21:31)

Win the league. As the Sweden manager, Swedish football has a. I find Swedish football, in the evolution, you know, the tactical conversation with Swedish football, quite fascinating because they speak very, very highly of Roy Hodgson and they speak very, very highly of Graham Potter. Hodgson, I believe, due to his use of a 4, 4, 2 and potter, for essentially being. This is a huge oversimplification. Trying to modernize methods and bring forth the idea of the data evolution of sport and greater alignment and connectivity between the head coach and all the other roles there too. So even though he's having this horrible time in The Premier League with Chelsea and West Ham. Sweden's is his footballing home or his second footballing home and that's offered him a reprieve. Let's bear in mind, you know, after the 2022 World Cup, Graham Potter was being tipped for the England job.

Ayo Akimolere (22:18)

I'm secretly smiling because Gyokores has scored four in the last two. Yes, yes, yes. It deserves it, Carl, it deserves it. In the last two international matches. You know, a striker that's been scrutinized since coming to Arsenal, but actually look at the numbers. It's not too bad. Good news for Arsenal for sure that they've got a striker on international duty. Hopefully comes back without any injuries, but also in striking form. Carl.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (22:44)

Yeah, look, international football is different to club football, especially Premier League football. The wonderful Grace Robinson, who does a substack grace on football, often describes it as a less subtle version of club football, which is stuck with me. It's not quite apples and oranges but. But there are little distinctions in there. And again, if you go back to Jacob's description of the goal, he talks about Joker as his strength and I think in international football he probably has a fraction of a second longer on the ball. I'll be interested to see how the Sweden team performs because there should be two or three players returning from injury. That means Sweden in theory will have the cavalry and could be a stronger opposition as we get to this tournament. I'm really interested to see Sweden can get their counter attacking game going. The concept of Anthony Alanga, Yokerez and

Felipe Cardenas (23:34)

who knows, it's a manageable group as well for Sweden.

Ayo Akimolere (23:36)

I mean. You think so?

Felipe Cardenas (23:38)

Yeah, I mean, you know, Japan now World cup contenders. I mean, Netherlands.

Ayo Akimolere (23:46)

Yes.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (23:48)

It's not just the group, it's also the. If, if I know this, how this works properly, which I still don't, but the bracket should be favorable to whoever tops this group. Yeah, I think there's. There's a good chance that whoever comes out of this group could reach the quarterfinals without necessarily being the underdog in any of their matches, so.

Felipe Cardenas (24:05)

Agree. Agree. No, Tunisia. Not. Not. Certainly not a. They're a difficult side. They're a difficult side. Netherlands, we're not going to go on a tangent here, but I just don't.

Ayo Akimolere (24:14)

You never know.

Felipe Cardenas (24:15)

Killer striker, who's their striker, who's going to score goals for them. That's. That's the only thing you know.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (24:19)

You're correct. Netherlands are interesting in that Memphis depay is their record goal scorer and he will be their starting Striker, but he's currently playing in Brazil right now. There's been quite. There's currently question his. Is he the same player that put the United States to the sword in 2022? Tunisia make games hard to watch. My goodness, they are fantastic proponents of softball. So this idea that it's not about being entertaining when you're playing international football, but being able to willingly sacrifice 20, if not 30 minutes on the clock and keeping it attritional and close and therefore you can see if you can get a goal. So I wouldn't recommend tuning into Tunisia games, but I wouldn't be surprised, but I wouldn't be surprised if Tunisia caused some damage in that group. And then Japan. We will get to Japan in a little bit in this podcast.

Ayo Akimolere (25:04)

Okay, well, we'll talk about them in just a second. I just want to rattle through some of the other results on the night. So the Czech Republic booked their place at the World cup for the first time in 20 years, which is brilliant. They beat Denmark in penalties. Turkey also went through. Now Turkey, interestingly, are going to be the USA group Felipe, which is going to be fascinating. And also the interconfederational playoffs. Iraq beat Bolivia 21 to seal their qualification as well. And last but not least, I have to give reluctantly, but also high praise to the DRC Congo for, you know, for actually beating Jamaica and getting through to the World Cup. Axel Tuanzebi, former Manchester United, scores the winning goal. I see you there with pride, C. For the first time they've qualified for the World cup in 52 years. It's quite remarkable, isn't it?

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (25:49)

First World cup since 1974. Photographs from Kinshasa last night looked absolutely incredible. Dr. Congo has had a really strong World cup qualifying. They finished their World cup qualifying campaign really, really strong to the point where I tipped them as dark horses for afcon. And then I went, ah, right. That's why I probably shouldn't recommend teams for dark horses. And yeah, I mean, once this draw was made, my personal opinion was Dr. Congo was going to get there. I do want to talk about Jamaica in that I think they will deeply regret how this qualification process has gone. The fact that they even needed this intercontinental playoff, they've really extremely disappointing one

Felipe Cardenas (26:25)

of the most disappointing teams in concacaf.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (26:28)

Right? This is. So Jamaica's gone through a CONCACAF qualifying process where they didn't have to face the USA or Mexico because they were the host nation. This is a World cup tournament in the United States. So a huge amount to the esport will be in the United States waiting to watch and they just. Steve McLaren.

Ayo Akimolere (26:42)

Steve McLaren walks away just before Steve

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (26:45)

McClure walks away, which I think. I mean, I think Steve McClure. Well, I don't want to put words in his mouth, but that's probably the correct decision because he knew something. Such was the way that game. They have this. No. No draw against Curacao that they really should have won. That's the game they should have won. That's the game where they should have gone for broke and they draw. Steve McLaren resigns on the spot. They're reconvened to take on DL Congo. They. They played well. This is a game that went to extra time. And I think I was surprised by the first half, at least about how well Jamaica played. But I'm pulling the face here. I don't think Jamaica. I don't think Jamaica will have an easier route to World cup qualification than the one they just had. And I don't think they'll. Their fans across the world will have a easier trip to watch their team play than one in North America. Congratulations to Dr. Congo. Congratulations to Tuanze, a football player I've adored since about 2018. I still have fond memories of the day he just sort of shoulder barged Mbappe for Manchester United and he's had these injury problems, but the fact he's able to contribute in such a big, important way for his national team. Good on you that. Good on you.

Ayo Akimolere (27:54)

Yeah. It's a real shame because I've seen the campaigns with Adidas for Jamaica, the reggae boys, the kids are looking for Lee. Honestly. There's two good drops of recent, actually, and they're not going to be at the World cup again. I mean, come on, what is this?

Felipe Cardenas (28:10)

I hate that I was right about a month ago when, when, when they just dropped or a couple of weeks ago when they dropped all these kids and Jamaica's came out and I'm like, this is going to be the sexiest kit that will not be at the World Cup. And I was right because as, as Carl says, they've just been so disappointing, so inconsistent. You know, they're given this red carpet to get to a World cup and. And they can't get it done. You know, I, I watched parts of the game yesterday because obviously the whole of Colombia was watching because the winner goes into the group with Colombia, Portugal and Uzbekistan. And, you know, my group chat in Colombia was. Was just popping off like, you know, what is up with Jamaica, like, expected something. You know, they don't ever watch Concaf but they expected Jamaica to be like, okay, this is the team that's going through. And in the end it's Congo who, you know, I think the feedback is, you know, what can they do in that group with Uzbekistan, Colombia and Portugal? You know, can they be a spoiler, you know, can they match up physically, which they will, you know, what, how will the, what will their mentality look like at a World Cup? You know, facing, you know, two. I don't, I'm not going to call Columbia a contender, but certainly a top team. And then Portugal with everything that they, that they deliver. So interesting group now and could perhaps an African side could, could, could cause some damage there.

Ayo Akimolere (29:27)

Okay, I've left it long enough but we need to talk about England.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (29:31)

Ueda is waiting in the center.

Podcast Host (Intro/Outro) (29:33)

Here's Mitoma.

Felipe Cardenas (29:34)

It's 1 nil Japan.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (29:35)

It's a brilliant counter attack.

Ayo Akimolere (29:38)

Look. After drawing 11 with Uruguay, England were beaten 1 nil by Japan at Wembley. England now without a win against the three highest ranked sides they have played so far. Look, it's not an ideal international break, Carl, but post match Thomas Tuchel highlighted key figures dropping out of the squad, including Harry Kane. Is it important to keep that context or should England really be doing much better than this?

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (30:04)

I'll tell you what, Thomas Tuchel will be a heck of a poker player, right? He just tells you what he's, what he's feeling, plays it straight. Okay, grand, we'll do it there. I think naming a 35 person squad and the way he sort of bisected things and made it very clear that a group of players wouldn't arrive until after the Uruguay game. This international break felt to me more for the fringe players, for players in the B or the T tier selection and seeing could they push their way into the 26 consideration or. And what we've instead seen is number players essentially play themselves out of consideration. I think now Phil Foden will have a very, very tough time to get on the play. I don't think he gave the best account of himself for England across these two matches and I think there's justifiable cause and reason for him to not be in that 26 person squad and for another player to come ahead of him. I think James Garner had a good one. I think Garner got the man of match award against Uruguay and he only got about 20 minutes. Came on for Mainoo against Japan, but he is playing now with a sort of all action boxer box offering. That means he could be a good number 23 if that makes sense. And I think also when we're talking about this sort of camp, the way things seem to be explained more, this was an impression we got. More so towards the end of Gareth Southgate's time in charge and particularly the Qatar World cup is, I think Tuchel now is looking for, quote, unquote, good tourists. Because if you look at, if you look at World cup squads, especially when it's now 26 players, there is a very good chance two, three, maybe even four players will not play a single minute for your national team, particularly of the larger nations. And therefore what two or three of these head coaches now are looking for are players that can travel and have a good morale, not upset the dressing room too much, be really, really good at training. You know, the social convener. There's that fantastic documentary BBC made about how to win the World cup and there's a great bit about how historically for the Spanish national team, when they went abroad for international tournaments, the biggest hotel room went to the captain or the oldest player. But for the 2010 World cup, they made the decision to give it to Pepe Reina because Pepe Reina was the social convener and Reina barely played for Spain, but apparently Fabregas said if he got. If he was feeling down or feeling tired or feeling bored, he'd knock on Pepe Reina's door and they'd play cards or they'd hang out or they'd play PlayStation.

Ayo Akimolere (32:20)

Just there for the vibes. Just there for the vibes.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (32:23)

I think now Tuchel probably is getting some sense of who those players.

Felipe Cardenas (32:27)

Who is that player? Who is that player? Who's the Pepe Reina for England?

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (32:32)

Jason Steele was the training goalkeeper in his 35 person squad. So very much someone who wasn't going to feature at all but was just as a vibes person. My personal suggestion should be Danny Welbeck. Danny Welbeck should be number 26 for me.

Ayo Akimolere (32:44)

Get Welms in. That would be nice. Such a lovely man.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (32:48)

We know being the second choice striker for Harry Kane is a very, very hard job. Being the third choice striker for Harry Kane, buddy, you ain't. You're not going to play too many minutes at all. And there's been some fantastic reads of the Russia squad. So the 2018 squad and loads of them speak very highly of Welbeck and how when they were sad or bored, they just knock on Welbeck's door and he'd sort them. Welbeck's my number 26, if only for the vibes player. And I think there's been two or three things to this England game or these pair of England games that haven't been great, but have answered questions, if only by their averageness of play. So we now have a very, very strong grasp of who should be number 10 for England. Jude Bellingham. And Jude Bellingham did not kick a ball. But the performances of Cole Palmer, Phil Foden and others now has made it very, very clear if England are going to do something, Jude Bellingham has to play as the number 10. I'm not totally convinced by Tuchel in charge just yet. I can't shake this feeling that England are going to have an inglorious quarterfinal elimination at this tournament. But we'll see.

Ayo Akimolere (33:51)

I think that's a fair deduction, Felipe. You know, I couldn't help but watch, you know, France's international friendlies against Brazil. I can't remember the other one, but

Felipe Cardenas (34:01)

they looked in Colombia. Colombia, Trust me, I watched that one.

Ayo Akimolere (34:04)

You watched that? I didn't want to say I was, I was joking because I know what it was. I know you're Colombian, but like, you know, I know they arrested some stars as well and some did come and play and England are missing some stars. But Thomas Tuchel made this point and he said, you know, some of the players were more focused on what felt like club football and also European football in that respect. Because, you know, we might look at certain places, play for Arsenal, for instance, in a really pivotal point in. In the sits in the league at this moment in time. But these are still friendlies. You still want to turn up and show what you can do. And this is fundamentally training ahead of a major tournament.

Felipe Cardenas (34:37)

It's funny that you mention and that you emphasize the word friendlies because that has been something that I've heard several managers, this window in particular, Mauricio Pochettino, when we get to the United States. But he has made a point to say, these aren't friendlies, don't call them friendlies. He's even told the press here in the United States, do not call them friendlies. What are they called? And he waits till the press in unison yells out, unofficial matches. Yes, this actually happened. And his point is that if you call them friendlies, then they're not really like, you know, how serious are you taking them? He doesn't like that word. And he actually mentioned as an example of the level that you should be playing at in these types of games, Colombia versus France. He's like, did you watch the level of play Colombia played? That game as if it were a World cup final. France realized that early and really turned up the volume as soon as that became evident. And so, yes, you know, at the same time, Roberto Martinez, the Portuguese manager, telling reporters here in Atlanta, don't ever judge teams in March. I never do that. But that's certainly what we're doing now because that's what we're supposed to do. And this is where you start to get either really concerned or slightly more comfortable with France. I'm sure the comfort level is so much that they rested a number of first team players against Colombia. It was called their B team and they look like World cup contender. Okay, you know, this is it. This is the time where you're, you're figuring out to Carl's point is, is a player going to be the vibes player? Am I look at how he is connecting throughout camp. He may not start, he might not play, but he trains well and he's smart and he can be my proxy on the pitch. So this window is very important, you know, and I, I understand that. England, when I saw 30 Fab Man Squad, I was like, what is he doing? What, you know, what is Tuchel doing at this point? Do you not know your squad? I mean, it's okay to not know you're, you're 11, but if you're still at the 35 range, you know, that's really interesting. But the last thing I'll say about, about England is, you know, in December, I was in London. I did the podcast in London. And at the end of that podcast, after the draw, I, I picked England to win the World Cup. And Adam Levinthal looks at me like, are you, are you okay? And he was right. He said, you're just enamored by London after three nights here. And he, and I think he's right. I think he was partly right. I walked away from London thinking, when can I get back? But I look at England like they're a strong team. I know sometimes they're boring. It's not sexy football, it's not revolutionary football. Sometimes they fail to evolve. But, you know, 2022, I thought there were similar vibes about that England team. And, and, and they were unlucky to not play in a semifinal or play, or play in a final. 2018, obviously they're in the semifinal. And so, you know, the one thing that I will point out that is not football related about England mentions Phil Foden, potentially not going to this World Cup. You know, England is one of the most marketable teams in the United States. If not next to the United States and Mexico, it's England in terms of who is the nation that just a casual observer will know about and potentially even just be like, I'm going for this team. It's England. And Phil Foden is one of the most popular players in the United States. Manchester City is a huge brand, as many brands to the Premier League are in the United States just because of the fandom here and the summer tours. If Phil Foden is not on that team, that's, that is going to be such an interesting talking point in the United States. How, how the pundits talk talk around Phil Foden not being here. How Manchester City fans that are here in the United States hoping to see I think that player, what happens to him and just the, the aura that he used to have as this tricky left footed number 10 street ballerina. That would say a lot about, you know, the manager's perception of football if a player like that's not there.

Ayo Akimolere (38:38)

Okay, cued us also to Japan, who I am very much looking forward to seeing in another World cup as well.

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Podcast Host (Intro/Outro) (40:32)

You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimolere.

Ayo Akimolere (40:36)

All right, let's move on to your specialist subject, Felipe. After being hammered by Belgium 52 and also suffering a two nil defeat to Portugal, the USA have now conceded seven goals in their last two international matches. We talk about pressure on the shoulders of players, pressure on the shoulders of a coach, Mauricio Pochettino. How have those results gone down in the States?

Felipe Cardenas (40:57)

Yeah, they haven't been well received within, you know, the, the, the soccer, US Soccer ecosystem here. The fans that are, that are anxiously waiting what this, this World cup is going to look like and what this team is going to look like. You know, Mauricio Pochettino has said a lot of things since taking over this national team. He said that we should be playing for a final. We should be dreaming about a semi final. We, why not us? And I think the why not us was answered in, in over these two games against Belgium and Portugal because they don't have the level. They're not at that level, which, which is clearly an elite level. You know, last night, you look at the scoreline, Belgium five, the United States too. The 20 loss to Portugal in Atlanta, I thought was worse, to be honest with you. There were, there were times when Portugal was just toying with the United States. Bruno Fernandez was spectacular and I don't think he broke a sweat. He did what he wanted. He was playing behind the center backs. He was pinging balls from, from 50 yards away onto his, his winger's foot. He was clever. He was coaching on the pitch. And eventually what happens when you play the United States, and this is something that Kevin de Bruyne said, is that, you know, we understand they're going to come out and they're going to try to punch us in the face. They're going to be intense. They're going to have the home crowd, which is a loud crowd, when things are going great, and when things are not going great, they turn off. And so the Belgians understand, this is what Portugal did too. Take the punches, take a couple punches. They're coming at us. And as soon as the game settles and you understand where the space is, you understand where the movement is, you understand where the pressing is coming from. That's when the US really looks limited and these teams that they're facing look really experienced and really well trained. And so the takeaway from this window is not so much, why hasn't Mauricio Pochettino turned this team into something that we can be proud of? It's more like, wow, we were right. This team has a lot of holes. The spine of the team is certainly a concern. The back line is unsettled. The goalkeeping situation, you know, remember the United States, for decades, if there was one position that you could point at and say, well, there's your world class player, it was in goal. And they haven't had that over two World cup cycles now. And we saw that over this window as well.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (43:14)

Christian Pulisic doesn't look like he's close

Felipe Cardenas (43:18)

to his bench right now. Yeah, a complete scoring drought. You know, he, he missed two sitters over this window against Belgium. He was, you know, really sprightly, really engaged, but, you know, just didn't have the sharpness in front of goal. And he has been the one that has, you know, gone in front of the cameras and say, you know, I, he keeps being asked about pressure. You know, you're the face of the program. You're going to be the face of this, this, this, this nation in the summer. And he said, you guys pointing at us. You want me to feel the pressure? Almost trying to dismiss it and then admitting that, yes, I feel it, but it's pressure that I put on myself. You know, after the game against Portugal, another, another clear chance that he finishes all the time. He had a goal just like this against Iran in the last World cup, where a ball swings in from the right flank, he crashes the goal, he's in the six yard box, takes it out of the air, goal. You know, I've seen Christian Pulisic do that so many times for the United States and this time he whiffed, he completely whiffed in front of goal, which would have changed everything about just the energy of the stadium, the hope of the team. And he said after, he's like, I'm going to score, I'm going to do it. And yes, those goals would have helped us, but I'll do it. So yes, Christian Pulisic right now, is it, is he in a slump? Is he in his own head? It could be both, but he, he certainly not being sharp right now, not scoring for AC Milan in months is a big, big red flag for the

Ayo Akimolere (44:44)

U.S. okay, right, let's end on this one because now we have our 48 teams going to the World Cup. Let's have a quick fire. Early predictions round. Carl. Well, let's do this in a similar vibe to your bad predictions. Amnesty. So quickly, gents, Shock exit at the group stage. Where do you see it happening?

Felipe Cardenas (45:06)

Go ahead, Carl.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (45:07)

Oh, wow. Shock exit.

Ayo Akimolere (45:11)

Yeah.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (45:12)

Egypt are in trouble.

Felipe Cardenas (45:15)

Felipe, if you want shock, I'll stick. I'll just stay on the same line. The United States would be. They're in trouble. They're in trouble. They're in trouble. Listen, the sentiment here is that this team could get grouped. Honestly, you know, that's the popular term in the US and you mentioned turkey. Porchettino told us we're gonna. We're gonna be watching that game tomorrow in the afternoon before we play Portugal. Do you think they were just praying for Kosovo? Probably because Kosovo looked like the type of team that if you face them in the final group stage match needing a result, it might be really, really hard to get it. But you're not dealing with the talent that Turkey has and. And the belief that Turkey has and the. I don't know, the quality. So Paraguay, a very tricky opener for the United States. I contend that I've said that from the very beginning that that is a tricky side. That is a team that wants to make history. Diego Gomez, my boy, coming from Inter Miami to Brighton. Watch out that. That kid can play. And Australia, they can't wait to punk the United States. They said it was one of these

Ayo Akimolere (46:16)

teams, plays with heart, by the way, one of these teams. Every World cup turns up with heart.

Felipe Cardenas (46:21)

100 and so where's the heart from the U.S. that's. That's what. That's the takeaway. So if they don't show it, they could get grouped.

Ayo Akimolere (46:27)

Okay. Underdog to sneak into the latter stages. Carl.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (46:31)

Scotland. Oof.

Ayo Akimolere (46:33)

Talk about heart.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (46:34)

Scotland. I think. I think there's a. The fact the third team can qualify as well is going to throw some really interesting combinations. And look, I said some mean things about Scott McTominay when he's a Manchester United player, and he's continued to make me eat humble pie ever since. So. Scott McTominay. I'm with you now. I'm clapping for you. I'm cheering for you. Now. You can say I'm a bandwagon person. I need to stop doing this. But I believe Scotland can make a deep run.

Felipe Cardenas (46:59)

I'll say Bosnia. I'll say Bosnia. You know, they're on this high. Again, everyone expected Italy to be in that group with Canada, that, that was going to be the opening match in Toronto and blah, blah, blah. And look who's come to spoil a party. Bosnia. And like I said, don't. I don't want to meet that team in a dark alley. I don't want to meet that team when. When you think they can't advance from a World cup. And you look at the group, Canada, Qatar, Switzerland.

Ayo Akimolere (47:24)

Switzerland.

Felipe Cardenas (47:25)

You mentioned the third place plus possibilities. I like Bosnia there.

Ayo Akimolere (47:29)

Okay, finally, and it's the obvious question, who's winning in this World Cup? Gents, I'm going to stick my head out, just say, france.

Felipe Cardenas (47:36)

Oh, look at this guy.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (47:40)

When the draw was made, I said, spain. And I said, this is going to be Yamal's crowning. And Matt Slater looked at me and he went, you're forgetting France, aren't you?

Ayo Akimolere (47:48)

He.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (47:48)

I remember he said, you're forgetting France. I went, no. And he goes, no, you're forgetting France. And ever since you said that, as I often do, when Matt Slater tells me to do anything, I will do it. And I'm looking at going, oh, yeah. But no, I'm going to stick. I'm going to say Spain. And I truly think if everything goes right and it can avoid injury, this could be Yamal's coronation. Ooh.

Ayo Akimolere (48:08)

I mean, the tal just keeps coming out of the French factory. Felipe is insane. Absolutely insane. Continuously.

Felipe Cardenas (48:15)

Yeah, it's. Again, they have a. I saw a graphic recently, an A B, a C and a D team. And all of those teams look like they would top the group and. And get pretty far if not win the World Cup. I. Listen, I already admitted it. I said England after the draw. I think I'm. I think you guys will give me a pass if I change my. My prediction there. All right? You know, my big hot take is that Brazil will have a better World cup than Argentina, but they won't win it.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (48:40)

Oh, I like this.

Felipe Cardenas (48:42)

That's a good take. Yeah, that's my big, hot take, that Brazil will have a better World cup than Argentina. But I cannot look past Les Blue. That is. That team is so good. That team is so good. And they. They are just chilling. Like, Deschamps is just like, hey, boys, we're quality. Yeah, They're. They're eating chocolate on the. On the, on the sideline, watching Colombia try to do anything, you know, just to save some pride against them. And Mbappe, I think, you know, we may be talking about him at the same level as Pele. If they win this World cup and then win another World Cup. Like they have the quality to get to multiple World cup finals. And if Mbappe is healthy, he could win multiple World cup titles.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (49:22)

And Mbappe's such a strange one in that sometimes I forget how good he is.

Felipe Cardenas (49:28)

Yes, I agree.

Podcast Host (Ad Read) (49:29)

And he can get a bit overlooked because he sort of missed his window in the immediate. You know, the Messi Ronaldo era lasted just a bit longer than we expected. And then when Mbappe was meant to kick in, Yamal's emerged. So Mbappe can sometimes fade from view. This is also probably because Mbappe's not had a good Euros campaign yet as well.

Ayo Akimolere (49:48)

But in the, in the World cup final we saw, yeah, Mbappe, come on, come on. You can't deny that as in the top echelons of football, you scored four

Felipe Cardenas (49:58)

goals and don't win the World cup is pretty insane. And listen, I said Pele because I think, you know, France has a quality with mbappe to win three World Cups. But you know, the 22 World Cup, I think they kind of had to win that one perhaps to. To reach that. I just feel like they are dialed in and ready to just take the US by storm this summer. France.

Ayo Akimolere (50:20)

Okay, let's leave it there, gents. This is not the first or the last time we're going to be talking World cup on this podcast. Felipe, Carl, thanks for your time and also thank you guys for joining us as well. Well, we'll catch you soon.

Podcast Host (Intro/Outro) (50:32)

You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroo and Jay Beal with editing by Paul Iliff and Nick Thompson. The executive producer is A.D. moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows. Search for the Athletic wherever you get your podcasts. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.

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