Liverpool win the Isak derby - but do they need more signings?

Summary

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The Athletic FC Podcast

Episode: Liverpool win the Isak derby – but do they need more signings?
Date: August 26, 2025
Host: Ayo Akinwolere
Guests: George Caulkin, Ollie Kay, David Ornstein

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Episode Overview

This episode recaps Liverpool’s dramatic last-minute victory over Newcastle at St. James’s Park in the so-called "Isak derby". Discussion centers around the ferocious atmosphere, the future of Newcastle’s squad amid the Alexander Isak transfer saga, Liverpool’s emerging vulnerabilities, and lingering transfer market questions as the window closes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Atmosphere and Dramatic Moments at St. James's Park

• George Caulkin describes a pulsating, emotionally charged night, with Newcastle supporters making a powerful statement of unity amid the Isak transfer storm.
  • “It was always going to be a big game. Alexander Isak was the undertone. It was the overtone. It was all the tones the game.” (03:01)
  • Newcastle’s fan group ‘Wor Flags’ set a message: “A club is about more than one person.”
  • The match’s symbolism was palpable, with Ekitike scoring (a Newcastle target who got away) and Newcastle’s false nine replacement sent off.

2. Rio Ngomoa's Teenage Dream

• Liverpool’s 16-year-old Rio Ngomoa became the club’s youngest ever scorer with a last-minute winner.
  • Ollie Kay: “What a moment for him. My 16-year-old daughter's just done her GCSEs ... The idea of her or any other 16 year old being put into that enormous, high pressure situation and just doing something that just breaks... amazing.” (04:54)
  • George Caulkin (joking): “Do Newcastle have a case to get that goal chalked off simply because it was beyond his bedtime?” (05:36)
  • Ollie Kay: "It was one of the great Premier League moments… a huge moment and a really, really dramatic ending." (06:53)

3. Newcastle’s Performance and Resilience

• Despite missing key players (Gordon sent off, Tonali, Joelinton, and Schär all out), Newcastle dominated large parts of the game.
  • Caulkin: "They lost the game, they lost Gordon ... but you don't watch them and think of them as losers. You watch them and think this is actually, you know, the mentality of winners." (08:40)
  • Concerns persist, though, about needing to “start translating that into victories” and the urgent need for more recruitment.

4. Liverpool’s Vulnerabilities and Transfer Needs

• Ayo Akinwolere and Ollie Kay debate Liverpool’s lack of control, vulnerability in defense, and whether their “spirit” can make up for structural problems.
  • Kay: “The big thing is control that Liverpool haven't had in the first two games… They've won those two games in pretty. I don't know. Would you call it resilient or would you call it heroic? I don't know. They didn't look very resilient.” (10:00–11:59)
  • Caulkin: Cites fans chanting “champions” and notes that “if you’re not at your best… find a way of grinding through it. And they did.” (12:01)

5. Transfer Window Grind: The Alexander Isak Saga

• The Isak transfer saga looms over Newcastle and Liverpool.
  • David Ornstein's Update: “Newcastle have been very firm in their stance they don’t intend to sell him this summer … but he has made clear his desire to go and pretty forcefully … He’s not training with the first team…there is no indicator that his stance...is going to alter.” (17:09)
  • Only one formal Liverpool bid (£110m) has been tabled, and with a week to go, Ornstein says, “all eventualities remain open.” (17:09–19:56)
  • The situation could impact Newcastle’s ability to sign replacements and manage FFP/PSR compliance.
  • Caulkin: “Selling has always been part of the plan at Newcastle ... But the idea of selling their best player at precisely this moment is kind of anathema to them.” (22:47)
  • Kay: Raises the risk of a ‘toxic’ scenario if Isak is kept against his will, versus the challenge of letting a prize asset go. (24:27–25:45)

6. Squad Building, Spirit, and the Human Side

• Caulkin: Reflects on the emotional toll for both Eddie Howe and fans, noting the shadow cast over what should be a celebratory period for the club after historic cup success:
  • “This was supposed to be the summer ... they're going into the Champions League ... and they've had this sort of sourness around.” (29:00)
• Newcastle’s lack of a CEO and sporting director compounds the sense of drift and instability. (29:35)

7. Liverpool’s Remaining Transfer Business

• Ornstein: Liverpool are targeting Isak for a specific, not a generic, forward need — they won’t “settle” for a lesser alternative.
  • On defense: Mark Guehi of Crystal Palace is an option, but a deal is not near. (35:00)
  • Liverpool unlikely to “sign for the sake of it”: “...they just won’t make signings just for the sake of it… if they're not right, they'll keep their powder dry and wait for the right opportunity in the future.” (37:14)
  • On outgoings: Harvey Elliott may leave — many clubs are interested, but squad depth might be an issue. (38:26)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It was always going to be a big game. Alexander Isak was the undertone. It was the overtone. It was all the tones the game.”
  – George Caulkin (03:01)

• “It was the stop of teenage dreams. Three days short of his 17th birthday.”
  – George Caulkin on Rio Ngomoa (04:43)

• “Even a half committed Alexander Isak is probably better than anything out there.”
  – George Caulkin (25:45)

• “Selling has always been part of the plan at Newcastle… but the idea of selling their best player at precisely this moment is kind of anathema to them.”
  – George Caulkin (22:47)

• “The fact that they've started the season with two wins from those sub-optimal conditions … is impressive in its own right... That is what champions do.”
  – George Caulkin (11:59)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:22 — Show starts, immediate reaction to the atmosphere at St James’s Park
• 03:01–04:54 — Newcastle perspective and Ngomoa's debut heroics
• 04:54–06:53 — Ollie Kay reflects on Ngomoa’s impact
• 07:12–09:17 — Newcastle's resilience and sense of injustice
• 09:30–11:59 — Liverpool’s defensive frailties and the impact of off-field pressures
• 12:45–13:05 — Newcastle’s transfer window dilemmas
• 15:53–19:56 — David Ornstein: In-depth on Isak transfer saga
• 22:47–25:45 — Newcastle’s strategy, FFP pressures, and the psychological cost of selling
• 27:42–29:35 — The human and emotional cost of the Isak saga
• 34:47–39:03 — Ornstein: Will Liverpool sign more? Harvey Elliott’s future addressed

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Closing Thoughts

The episode masterfully captures the emotional turbulence at both clubs: a triumphant but vulnerable Liverpool, and a Newcastle side forced to navigate glory, adversity, and a club-defining transfer saga all at once. Both sides face a decisive final week in the transfer window.

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Transcript

[Host/Announcer]

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[David Ornstein]

The Athletic FC.

[Ayo Akim Mulere]

Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me Ayo Akim Mulere. It was a thriller at St James's park as Liverpool nicked it in the last minute. Thanks to teenager Rio Ngomoa. Newcastle showed spirit. But it's fair to say that this squad could do with a fair bit of work before the transfer window closes in a week's time. All right, for this one we've got George Culkin. We've also got Oly Kay as well. George. We have to start with Newcastle on this one. You were at St. James's park last night. Newcastle fans were fired up for this one. Can I say that the ESAC situation potentially fueled this totally.

[George Culkin]

I mean it was always going to be a big game. It was always going to be a great atmosphere on a bank holiday at St. James's park under the lights. But yeah, I mean Alexander Isak was the undertone. It was the overtone. It was all the tones the game. You know, the game started off with a kind of brilliant display of unity. You know that message of togetherness from war flags. The fans group off the pitch, you know, saying that a club is about more than one person. But obviously that was directed at one person in particular. And it was just one of those force of nature occasions that St. James's you know, brilliant, brutal, noisy. Where you feel like the team and the crowd are in harmony. Kind of pushing each other on. It was a great game of football. It didn't go the way that Newcastle would have wanted but you know there was like there was symbolism everywhere. There was Alexander Isak. Not there was the man who's been replacing him as a false nine getting sent off. There's Ekitike scoring one of the strikers who got away for Newcastle. It just had a bit of everything. But it was a phenomenal occasion. Phenomenal atmosphere. The thing that I can't get my head around is that Alexander Isak chose to sit that game out. I mean I cannot get my head around it. It was just a brilliant, brilliant atmosphere. And you know the kind of stage that his talent was, was made for.

[Ayo Akim Mulere]

I mean Ollie, this game had it all red card, spirited comeback and a last minute winner from that lad. 16 year old Rio Ingamoa who became Liverpool's youngest ever scorer.

[George Culkin]

Slid through by Elliott Salah.

[Ayo Akim Mulere]

Plays it across the bottle, leaves it Algamoa.

[George Culkin]

It's the stop of teenage dreams. Three days short of his 17th birthday.

[Ollie Kay]

On his Premier League he comes off the.

[Ayo Akim Mulere]

What did you make of it?

[Ollie Kay]

Yeah, what a moment for him. I mean it seemed like. It seemed like it was going to be a night that was all about Newcastle's defiance. And to an extent it was in terms of the way that they. They fought back. And as their player, you know, their players were dropping like flies or Gordon sent off, Tonali injured, Jollington injured, Cher suspended. And then it just. It ended up being all about a 16 year old. I mean my. My 16 year old daughter's just done her GCSEs. She's wonderful apple of my eye. But the idea of her or any other 16 year old being put into that enormous high pressure situation and just doing something that just kind of breaks.

[George Culkin]

Do Newcastle have a case to get that goal chalked off simply because it was beyond his bedtime? I mean there must be. There must be. Are they looking into this?

[Ayo Akim Mulere]

So there's some petitions there.

[George Culkin]

They must be looking into this. They must be looking into it.

[Ollie Kay]

It was about. Well, it must have been going off at ten o' clock by. Yeah, it's. I've got. It was just. It was just brilliant. And I thought when Slot brought him on and this is just typical sort of somebody watching on the sofa without, without. Without the extensive coaching experience of Arnold Slot. I was thinking that is mad. Putting two really small players on Harvey Elliott and Ngamoa on into a hostile atmosphere where the story of this game has been your team being aerial bombardment. You've got a 6 foot 4 new signing from Italy, central defender on the bench. Why, why. Why aren't you putting him on? Why are you putting this 16 year old on? What's he going to do? And I know he's. I know he's. He's. He's brilliant. I've seen him, you know, watched him quite carefully the last. The last 12 months or so. His reputation kind of goes before him. But I did not expect that. And he. Even before the goal, he seemed to be willing to take the fight to Newcastle in a way that others hadn't been on the evening. And then that goal. It was just. It was amazing.

[George Culkin]

It was.

[Ollie Kay]

It was one of the. You know, it was one of the great Premier League moments. I don't think it was necessarily as quite as epochal as Jamie Carragher was suggesting. Best greatest game ever. But. But it was certainly. No, it was. It was. It was a huge moment and a really, really dramatic ending.

[Ayo Akim Mulere]

George, should Newcastle feel slightly hard done by? You know, if you look at Liverpool's performance, they had zero shots between the 46th and hundredth minute. Despite playing against 10 men. I mean Newcastle looked really up for this one.

[George Culkin]

I thought they were exceptional. Yeah. I thought they were the better team with. With 11 players. And obviously then you know, recovering from Anthony Gordon's you know, bad, bad challenge, they became the better team again. I mean slot afterwards talked about complete chaos. And he said, you know, he said as well we were the lucky ones to get it over the line. And it didn't feel like a just reward for Newcastle in terms of the way they approach the game. I think, you know people have been looking at them these first two matches. A difficult fixture at Aston Villa on the first game of the season. And then at home to Liverpool, the Alexander Isak thing hanging over them and you know, people looking for signs of fracture, for signs of disharmony, you know, would be easy to kind of find excus for what's been going on off the pitch. And you know when I say that they're an exceptional team I do mean that in the. In the kind of most old fashioned sense of the word they are a real proper team. And yeah, I thought they were. I thought they were really, really good. You know the way I've written about it in the Athletic is that they, they were kind of inflicted with losses all over. I mean they lost the game, they lost Gordon as you say, they've lost Fabian Cher, they've lost Gillinton, they've lost Tenali. You know that's. That's a large part of the spine of their team. And yet you don't watch them and think of them as losers. You watch them and think that this is actually, you know, this is the kind of mentality of winners. You know, they need to. They need to start translating that into. Into victories. Of course. And you know at the end of it they. They've left themselves with more work to be done in the transfer market after a testing summer. But it's very, very difficult to. To criticize them for anything last night apart from the sending off because they were just so good.

[Ayo Akim Mulere]

Yeah, for sure. On the flip side, Shadana, stop you worried, Ollie. I mean defensively Liverpool definitely do look vulnerable. But also that fluidity that we'd expect even with the new signings hasn't. We haven't quite seen it.

[Ollie Kay]

Well we saw, we saw it for the goal. I thought. I thought the goal was a. The winning goal was a brilliant move and. But it was a move of a type that they'd not produced all evening. I would say the big thing is control that Liverpool haven't had in the first two games. Went 2 nil up slightly luckily against Bournemouth and very fortuitously I would say against Newcastle in the first two games. In both occasions sort of inexplicably really they were dragged back into a 2, 2 situation and sort of won it in a scrambled way in stoppage time on both occasions. It's not. It's nothing like they were playing last season. And when you look at. Well, there are various issues. One is. One is the sort of change of personnel with new signings coming in and with the centre forward that they want still not through the door. The central defender they want still not through the door. It's a new look. Liverpool team people are finding their way. Kirkhes was struggling at left back. Konate I thought I think has come out of the blocks very, very slowly this season. They've not had their first choice midfield pairing so far. I don't think it's close to the disruption Newcastle have had but. But then you look beyond that and you think well they've also had the Diogo Jota situation to deal with and we've said a number of times that you know, we have no idea how that's going to affect those players over the course of a season. I don't think that's what's going through their mind on the pitch from minute 1 to minute 90 or minute 101 or whatever it was last night. But it might be. It might be weighing heavily on players on the training ground in the dressing room Monday to Friday and that can have an impact. So I think Liverpool have got a lot going on. There are reasons why things haven't exactly or potential reasons why things haven't looked very controlled. But yeah, their performances have not been very good really. But you look at the fact that they've won those two games in pretty. I don't know. Would you call it resilient or would you call it heroic? I don't know. They didn't look very resilient. Minutes 60 to 90 last night they looked like they were really on the ropes in a situation where they should have been in control. So it's a strange situation. I think it's hard to. Hard to evaluate.

[George Culkin]

You know their fans were singing a very obvious chant throughout the night which was just champions and you know it's the oldest. It's the biggest cliche in the book. But that is what champions do. They find a way. The fact that they've started the season with two wins from those sub optimal Conditions, as you. As you say, Ollie, is impressive in its own right. Because if you're not, you know, if you're not at your best, if you're not at 100 Fitness or Matt sharpness or whatever, find a way of grinding through it. And they did. You know, they did that. It wasn't pretty against Newcastle. I think they had a. A lot of fortune. But to get through it and to get through it with a win, you know, does speak about their own spirit and their own quality as well. So, I mean, it's. That's impressive in its own right.

[Ollie Kay]

Yeah.

[Ayo Akim Mulere]

George, just a quick one before we move on. Does it worry you? I know we're not quite sure where the transfer window is going to go for Newcastle in a week's time, but does it worry you that despite the greatness of last season and when Newcastle find themselves this season, it still feels as if they haven't hit the ground running when it comes to having stuff in place?

[George Culkin]

Yeah, I mean, Eddie Howe said last night that it already feels like this season is going to challenge them in new ways. And that, of course is a concern. Having said that, they spent the first half of last season really wading through treacle. I mean, they started off with an unsettled dressing room. If we remember, Anthony Gordon had had his head turned by liver. All of that PSR stuff had really taken hold in the dressing room. There was a sense that everybody was up for sale at a certain point. And it was a proper, proper struggle for how to turn that round. They were indifferent in terms of results. They were indifferent in terms of performances. There were some big moments off the pitch where he had to take players, including Isak, and really remind them of the basics. And you know, I spoke to someone very close to Eddie Howe towards the end of the season and he said people will never know how difficult that was for him and his coaching staff last season. Now the way it ended, of course, was with that extraordinary moment at Wembley. They win their first domestic trophy for 70 years. The team then somehow finds a way to. I wouldn't have cared. As someone who's watched Newcastle all my life. I wouldn't have cared if Newcastle had lost every single game beyond that. But they then took it up another notch and qualify for the Champions League. I mean, astonishing. But the first half of the season was. Was difficult and a challenge. So I'm not worried in the sense that they are very, very well equipped at dealing with adversity and bouncing back. And they have an astonishing spirit in the dressing room and As I say, a team in the most sort of traditional old fashioned sense of the word. I am concerned that, you know, they haven't got the results that they, that they should have got from these first two games and that now they have even more work to do in the transfer market. You know, my concern is not about Eddie Howe, it's not about the players they have. It's just that circumstances haven't been very kind to them so far.

[Ayo Akim Mulere]

Okay, well, let's see how that spirit is tested as we'll discuss the latest on the situation of Alexander Isak with the one and only David Ornstein.

[George Culkin]

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[Ayo Akim Mulere]

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[Ayo Akim Mulere]

Well, the future of Alexander Isak has been the talking point of the summer, it's fair to say with less than a week to go in the transfer window, we've worked in David Ordstein just to give us a bit more chat on it. David, are we any closer to a resolution solution on this? Because we can't stop talking about it.

[David Ornstein]

Well it was Eddie Howe pre match and actually post match around the Liverpool game who said there's no updates and that is the case at the time of recording because there was no decision either way. Newcastle have been very firm in their stance that they don't intend to sell him this summer. But equally they've been exploring the market for reinforcements in the event of him going, but also to bolster their attack full stop. In an ideal world, of course they wouldn't be here and they would at the very worst reintegrate him into the squad once the window closes. But we're not in an ideal world and he has made clear his desire to go and pretty forcefully and as far as we know, that stance remains unchanged. We at the Athletic have got no evidence to suggest that he is reconsidering his position. He's not training with the first team squad, he's not available for selection for the time being. And there's no indicator that his stance from speaking to sources all around this situation is going to alter. If indeed the window shuts and he remains at Newcastle, then of course everybody can cross that bridge when it comes to it. And so it's a really difficult situation. I think the outlook remains as it was before. If Newcastle are able to get some reinforcements that they're satisfied with and an offer comes in to their satisfaction from Liverpool, then potentially a deal will get done. However, there are a lot of ifs in that and there's no guarantee that it will happen. And so at this moment in time, all eventualities remain open. Him staying at Newcastle, whether or not that's against his will, him leaving Newcastle, that is his desire at the moment, as we're led to believe and he has made clear on his Instagram statement and Liverpool's wish to sign him. Although they have not come forward with with a subsequent offer after that 110 million pounds bid, their desire to bring him to Anfield is thought to be ongoing. And so every conversation I've had suggests that now that this game, Newcastle against Liverpool is out of the way, it was always anticipated that things will be resolved post that we are now in that period. So we could see developments any moment, any day. And it could even go down to the absolute wire on deadline day before we finally get some clarity on what has definitely been the biggest talking point of this summer transfer window. And if we don't get an outcome that people are satisfied by, then maybe we'll do it all again in January.

[George Culkin]

Please, please God, please God, no.

[David Ornstein]

We don't want to be here in.

[Ayo Akim Mulere]

January talking about this, surely. But the thing about the ESAC situation, David, is, you know, do they need to Sell him in order to do more business for strikers. Callum Wilson's also gone so that they also do need reinforcements in general, not just in that elite level, but maybe even as an understudy or someone that can come in through injuries and stuff like that.

[David Ornstein]

Well, Newcastle have done a lot of heavy lifting in the last year or so to improve their financial fair play, PSR situation and compliance. We all saw that they were unable to do any business. They came into this window able to do business and as we've made clear throughout, they fully expected Alexander Isak to stay in their mind. That was their wish and preference, especially after qualifying for Champions League football. We have since learned a lot of information about the situation that we didn't know at the time. However, Newcastle were intending to spend to enter the market to recruit and there were some finances available. We saw that in the case of Anthony Elanga of Aaron Ramsdell, obviously a lower cost deal of Jacob Ramsey and I do think there is scope to do more business say Johan Whisser, Jorgenstrand Larsson or whoever they have decided to go for as that Callum Wilson replacement. But yeah, if there's going to be further higher spending after that around the squad, whether it be a new number nine, whether it be in other parts of the pitch, of course for their continued PSR and financial fair play compliance. The most level of money that an ESAC sale could generate is critically important because we've talked so much about their revenues. They're not as high as the other clubs yet. We've seen what a difficult and distressed financial situation they have been in since the initial heavy investment under the new ownership and Eddie Howe. And so yeah, that that would be incredibly important but Newcastle would prefer to have Alexander Isaac at their disposal as opposed to the the money. One thing I would say about the the money he could generate is that the ownership led by the Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia will have to think very hard about this. And they are, I'm sure because despite being on paper the wealthiest club in world football, whether people like it or not, they have to comply with football's financial rules, PSR in the Premier League and FFP on a UEFA level. And that means they have no choice but to run Newcastle United as a business. And that's why potentially in no small part they may have to reluctantly consider his sale as well as the fact that he wants to go. So the finances involved in this are absolutely essential to the bigger picture and the story.

[George Culkin]

Selling has always been part of the plan at Newcastle. Selling has always been Part of what they've recognized that that will have to happen at some point down the line. Post take, you know, they were saying, even at the moment when they signed Bruno Guimara, they were saying, you know, if this guy gives us a couple of years, we double our money on him. That's part of what we have to do now. The way things have gone at Newcastle from that first extraordinary transfer window in the January post takeover, when they spent, whatever it was, £92 million more than any other club in Europe, to qualifying for the Champions League way ahead of schedule, to, you know, to, to the injuries to Callum Wilson, which is what made them, you know, do the deal for ESAC in the first place, to bringing forward the purchase of Anthony Gordon because they thought they could take advantage of what's going on at Everton. There's always been this sense that they've had to delay the sale, that they've delayed the sale. And that reached the point last summer when there was that awful sort of debacle of the PSR scramble when they ended up selling two really good young players and nobody wants to be in that position again. The problem is, it's like, even though it's always been part of the plan, you know, they come to this summer, they're now trophy winners, they're back in the Champions League again. And so the idea of selling their best player at precisely this moment is kind of anathema to them. And that's something that's always happened, you know, that seems to have happened repeatedly post takeover. At some point though, they will have to get their heads around selling one of their big players and then reinvesting that money. It's just the thought of it being him right now is very difficult to accept.

[Ollie Kay]

I was sort of thinking about it from Neddy Howe point of view and watching what he was saying last night about the performance and about how proud he was and about how spirited and unified it was. And I just wonder whether from his point of view, if Newcastle's ownership comes to him and says, right, great news, Alexander Isaac has accepted, he's not going anywhere. We're going to try and sort out a, you know, huge new contract with him, you know, it might have a buyout clause or whatever. Look, I'm just talking hypothetically, but if Isaac is still basically half, you know, one foot out the door, half a foot out the door is Eddie Howe with everything he stands for, which I think is much more, you know, even more team orientated and togetherness orientated than 99 of other managers is he going to want a situation where Isaac is being held against his will? Or would he just be concerned that, you know, a toxic figure in the dressing room would. Would do more harm than good? And I totally understand all the arguments for keeping him, but I. I just can see a situation where even if Newcastle can stand firm, hold firm and say no, you're not going. Might it be a case where Eddie Howe feels that Newcastle can do better without.

[George Culkin]

I don't think it's reached that point. I mean, if you look at what he said over the summer, there's been no public criticism. There's been the occasional sharp word about, you know, wanting committed players and players who want to be at the team and you have to act in a certain way, but there's been no public criticism. I think I thought it was quite astonishing last week actually, after Isaac's statement on Instagram when he talks about, you know, the relationship being over. In his next press conference, Eddie Howe is saying was the effect of Alex is an exceptional human being. He's a great player, but we love him and things like that. I mean, like killing him with kindness almost. You know, he has been very, very assiduous in leaving doors open for Isak. And I think there are a couple of theories behind that. I mean, one is that, you know, even a half committed Alexander Isak is probably better than anything out there. And you know, also the fact that as I've mentioned before, last season he brought him round. I mean, Isak was one of the players that he brought around last season as well as Anthony Gordon and others. And so he thinks he can do it. It's certainly not an ideal situation. But Ollie, I take the point because when you watch that performance last night, you know, the symbolism of having this team that is so committed that they're dropping like flies on the pitch, they're flying into tackles, they're pressing, they're running. They don't have their talismanic center forward, but they're giving absolutely everything. If I was them, I'd be waking up this morning feeling more angry towards Isac than I ever, ever had before. And that's part of the balancing act that Howe has also had to strike this summer. On one hand, you know, keeping options open for Isak and, you know, not closing off that door, but also demonstrating authority to the rest of his squad. And I mean, I'm, you know, full of admiration for Eddie Howe anyway, but I think he's, you know, the way he's had to pick through, you know, this kind of minefield really this summer. You know, he comes out of it. He comes out of this very well I think.

[Ayo Akim Mulere]

George, how damaging has this been? The whole Isaac situation. You know the optics of it from the outside looking in don't look great. But there is still a bit of a power tussle here, right?

[George Culkin]

Yes. It's both sides digging in. I mean it's. It's hung over the club for way too long. I mean it's damaging. Yes, it is damaging. It's sad. I mean first and foremost you know this extraordinary player who scored against Liverpool in the Cup Final back in March. You know, thereby cementing his place as a. As a Newcastle legend. I don't use that word lightly. But when you've not won a trophy for so many years it's like instant legendary status. And it has been very sad. The sourness is that I think if he come out at the start of the summer or the end of the season and sort of said thank you so much to Newcastle. What a season. You know you've helped me so much. We've. You know we've made history. But now is the time for me to move on and do something else. I think this would have felt very different. But you know by refusing to play matches, by training alone the damage is. I mean it's sort of difficult to measure. But it's just lingered on and lingered on. I mean I. I'm in those circumstances. I think the way Newcastle have played has been. Has been very impressive. But you know they're going into the Champions League. This was supposed to be the summer that after three transfer windows without adding to their. You know their. Their first 11 that they had some money to spend. They're going into the Champions League. It should be one of the best moments in their history. And they've had this sort of sourness around and there's all sorts of things that we can kind of go into the reasons for it. One thing is pretty obvious which is that Newcastle team have far outstripped Newcastle. The club. You know they're not the big payers. They. Sadly they're not at Liverpool's level. They're not going to be challenging for the Champions League in the Premier League season upon season. Not yet. That's where they want to get. They don't have the infrastructure of a Liverpool or a man city yet. And again you know obviously you can't criticize Eddie Howe for that. I mean the. The. The way he has performed in his team have performed. Have been. Has been astonishing. But you know also wider in the transfer market. They've attempted to go head to head with the clubs that they feel like they're on the same level with. And they. And they haven't been able to kind of do it. So it has been a tough summer. And you know, they haven't got a CEO. They haven't got a sporting director. That's not the way big clubs operate. And so it's been a mess.

[Ayo Akim Mulere]

Where does that put you as someone who's followed the club for ages? Someone who's seen Newcastle struggle, come back to glory and are finding glory again. Does that put you in a quite precarious situation because you don't quite know whether you can get excited for the future ahead.

[George Culkin]

So I mean I've said this before and it'll sound stupid and if like Liverpool fans listening to this, maybe they just won't kind of understand this. But like for my entire life it's all been about winning something. So I was born in 1970. So that's the year after Newcastle's previous trophy, the Intercity affairs cup. Which of course doesn't exist anymore. And so for me it's always been about a trophy. And there's you know, that's always been there feeling that's what they should do and I want them to do. And you know they got close on occasions. You know, some amazing moments under Keegan and Sir Bobby and that. And then it just disappeared into the horizon. The reason I'm bringing that up now is that I'd never thought of there being existence beyond winning something. It's like I hadn't ever thought that there would be a match after winning something. It sounds stupid but like for me it was like the cup final was the full stop. Winning something was a full stop. And. And as I said earlier, I can't get my head around the fact that Newcastle then had to play games the following week and the week after and that they actually won those games. It's like so part of me as someone who's watched the club all my life. I don't care what happens next. Because the bit that's always been missing, I've seen it happen and it was incredible. But of course the season rolls around and it was like oh yeah, okay. I'd quite like to see them do that again now. You know. It's like imagine if I was actually there and was capable of soaking up what happened. I mean I still don't that Newcastle played better than Liverpool because I couldn't get my head around Newcastle being good in a cup final. Anyway, that's a very kind of long winded way of answering it. I do think this summer has been sad. That's my feeling about Isak. He's a astonishing player. You know. Newcastle fans have been very, very lucky to to watch him, to witness him. But Newcastle have also developed him as a footballer. It could have been different this summer. Very sad. Very sad that it hasn't been.

[Host/Announcer]

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[Ayo Akim Mulere]

Whilst I've got you here David, quickly. Liverpool fans are probably screaming what about us? Any more business for them in the final days of the transfer window because we've highlighted a defender potentially and maybe even any attacking position as well.

[David Ornstein]

Well, obviously the fact that they're in for Isaac shows that they feel they need or want a little bit more in the final third of the pitch. So many people will say oh, if that's not going to happen, will something else materialize? My instinct would be no. Because Liverpool have shown in recent years and even last summer with Martin Zubimendi, they target players because they want that player. They don't necessarily have to have that position at any expense and at the risk of compromising quality or players that they actually want. And they've proven that they've had the courage of their convictions to wait even in the previous regime. Virgil van Dijk, when they didn't manage to get him one summer, they then came back in the winter and I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that if Liverpool don't get Isaac now, maybe they look to do it in the future. So I would say, you know, they've identified him as an opportunity as opposed to necessarily that position. And you could say they've already got their new number nine in Hugo Ekitike and that will be a really interesting one to watch in, in this last week of the Window. But I don't necessarily think they'll go in for an alternative if Isaac can't happen. And for the time being I suppose they are focused on Isaac in other positions. Yeah, defense Mark Gahey is a is a target of theirs and they've held initial talks with Crystal Palace. There's been no sort of offer or agreement to to meet Crystal Palace's satisfaction so far. But it's not just palace, it's Mark Gaye as well. Can they convince him if the clubs reach an agreement that you know, he's going to have sufficient game time and this is the right place for him to come. Sorry, my dog's jumping at me here. Sorry, I'm being attacked here. What is he doing? This is lunchtime and he's very. Oh is it? And so am I. All right, time for walkies. So yeah, he's. It's within Mark Gay. He's right to turn around and say I'm going to stay and see the final year of my contract. And again I don't necessarily think if Liverpool don't get him that that they would go in for another center half. They already recruited Leone and and they have a strong unit there and so you know many people will listen to this and watch the last week if Liverpool don't do what certain fans want them to do and be concerned and anxious and fill their short. But they did last summer and Liverpool turned around and won the Premier League title. And yeah, the recruitment was needed and they've recruited heavily this time round. But if we know anything about Liverpool now it's that they just won't make signings just for the sake of it. They'll make them because they feel they're right and if they're not right they'll keep their powder dry and wait for the right opportunity in the future. So I would say unclear, cautious about incoming business. Let's see. And clearly doors aren't closed. However, outgoing business will be something as well. And Liverpool have shown themselves to be very good sellers especially of young players maximizing value. Even of older players like Luis Diaz and Darwin Nunes you could say to an extent. So there'll be a bit of. A bit of balancing in these final days. Will Harvey Elliott leave? That's a really interesting one in my eyes because he's such a talented player. He's wanted by many clubs. RB Leipzig, other teams on the continent that would present champ league opportunities. Premier League clubs too. The star of the under 21 Euros got very few minutes last season. Now we've got barking but Liverpool actually have quite a tight squad and not necessarily flush with options in his position. So it's not impossible. One second. Come here. It's not impossible.

[Ayo Akim Mulere]

Wrap it up and take the dog.

[David Ornstein]

Out for a walk.

[Host/Announcer]

Come on.

[George Culkin]

I'll let you move it it on.

[David Ornstein]

It's not impossible that Harvey Elliott actually stays at Liverpool and would you know, be great for to see him play more than he did last season. But that's definitely one to watch.

[Ayo Akim Mulere]

Okay. What feels right is you grab some lunch, take the dog for a walk and Feed that dog. Thank you so much for joining us, D. We appreciate you.

[David Ornstein]

Cheers guys.

[George Culkin]

Desperately trying to think of some. Yeah, think of some punchline to that. That must be a punchline there. Dogs, dinner.

[Ollie Kay]

I don't know.

[George Culkin]

Oh, that's good. That's good. Feeling rough.

[Ayo Akim Mulere]

All right, gents, let's leave it there. George, Ollie, thanks for your time and also David, appreciate you jumping on as well. That's it from us. We'll be back tomorrow.

[George Culkin]

You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabre and Jay Beal. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and A.D. moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.

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