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- [00:00]
Sponsor Voice
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- [00:20]
Carl Anka
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- [01:28]
Carl Anka
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [01:35]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimwalerim. Tonight, spurs or Manchester United will be crowned Europa League champions. So will it be Postecoglou or Amorim that rescues a disastrous season? Right. Joining me for this one is the Athletic spurs writer Jeff Harris, a Manchester United writer who is actually out in Spain at the moment. Carl Ana. Carl, I'll start with you. I've taken a look at your socials. I've seen Paris be it and San Sebastian. I'm just thinking delicious food on this wonderful journey to Bill Bauer. Talk to me, man. What have you eaten?
- [02:19]
Jay Harris
Not much.
- [02:20]
Carl Anka
I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry. This. This business.
- [02:23]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Come on, bro.
- [02:23]
Carl Anka
This trade. I've bought several big flapjacks from W. Smith in the airport.
- [02:28]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Don't do this to me.
- [02:29]
Carl Anka
And I'm just plowing my way through those at the moment.
- [02:32]
Jay Harris
I'm.
- [02:33]
Carl Anka
I bumped into the comedian Ali woods last night in San Sebastian and he thankfully shared with me sort of map of San Sebastian. So I'm going to have myself a nice coffee and some decent breakfast before I shoot off to Bilbao. But look, this is what people Say Instagram. Being a football journalist on Instagram, amazing, right? You go to all these beautiful cities around the world and it's fantastic. But Jay will tell you, being a football journalist, you spend a lot of time, and I mean a lot of time in car parks waiting for things to happen.
- [03:02]
Jay Harris
Yeah. You do a lot of traveling. I remember when I was at the World cup in Qatar, there were a lot of times I was filing on a coach back from a stadium at like 3, 4 in the morning. Still all good, though. Let's not completely complain.
- [03:13]
Ayo Akimwalerim
That's what I was gonna say. There's people listening to this, thinking, come on, man, I'd rather be standing in a car parking Beer. It's stoked.
- [03:21]
Carl Anka
But it's been a brilliant trip. So I've flew from Manchester to Paris, Paris to Biarritz, Was in Beeritz's bus station talking to some Tottenham Hotspur fans. A brilliant gentleman called Julian talked to me about why he's more afraid of Manchester United's midfield than whatnot. It's been quite fun with being two English teams that aren't necessarily direct rivals or don't necessarily have the historical rivalry of, say, other top six clubs. And also because of the way the form is it, the conversations turn into just like a big moaning session. So it's been a good trip. I'm looking forward to getting to Bilbao this afternoon and then hopefully having some good pinchos.
- [04:05]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Oh. Oh, come on. Now you're talking. Jay, I know you're not there and I know you'd love to be there. So would I. But inevitably, this is quite an interesting final, or an English final, the sixth in the history of UEFA club competitions with no other country providing as many finals between two of their clubs. And it's a pretty special one. It feels special only because I feel I can't quite call who might win it.
- [04:32]
Jay Harris
Yeah. This is also the third time Tottenham would have been in a all English European final. So they've been in 50% of them. I don't know if I'd use the word special. I don't know if some supporters of these clubs would use the word special.
- [04:45]
Ayo Akimwalerim
I think I use that inverted commas, basically.
- [04:48]
Jay Harris
I think. Unique. Unique, exactly. Unique. I think what gives this game such a. Yeah, a unique twist is the. The fact that they both endured such poor domestic seasons. They're both right down at the very bottom. I think United are on, what, 18 league defeats. Spurs are on 21. Their hopes entirely hinge on this. And so it's just completely fascinating because one of These teams, this time tomorrow is going to be considered heroes. And it's going to say, do you know what? That season doesn't matter. They won the Europa League final. But for the others, it's going to be, you know, spurs lose this game. This is their worst season in modern history. They would have lost the most amount of games in the history in a single campaign. You know, Postecogli's future, I'm sure we'll come on to that in a minute, but it seems like he's probably going to go. This will just be a complete disaster. But if they win, lift silverware. For the first time since 2008, the first European trophy in 41 years, Postecoglou in this squad are going to be remembered as legends, as heroes. It's just so bizarre.
- [05:41]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Yeah, for sure. Well, last night we heard the managers address the media before the match. The major headline was Ange Postecoglou's frosty response to a headline suggesting he's teetering between hero and clown. Our spurs writer, Jack Pitt Brooke was in the room and sent us this.
- [05:59]
Jay Harris
Hi, Ange. If you win tomorrow night, this is going to be remembered as one of the best seasons in the club's modern history. But kind of conversely, if you lose.
- [06:07]
Jack Pitt Brooke
It might be remembered for one of.
- [06:09]
Jay Harris
The worst league seasons in the club's modern history. I just wondered if you're kind of conscious that you're walking a fine line.
- [06:15]
Carl Anka
Between kind of two very different types of.
- [06:18]
Jay Harris
Of infamy and history.
- [06:19]
Ruben Amorim
Really?
- [06:20]
Ayo Akimwalerim
That depends on your outlook, Dan. But I'll tell you one thing. Irrespective of tomorrow, I'm not a clown. I never will be, mate. And you really disappointed that you would use such terminology about a person who, for 26 years, without any favors from anyone, who's worked his way to be in a position where he's leading out a club in a European major competition. For you to suggest that somehow us not being successful means that I'm a clown. Not really sure how to answer that question.
- [06:50]
Ruben Amorim
So I'm at the San Mama Stadium, where we just had the press conference. Firstly, we heard from Pedro Porranson, Heung Min, who didn't say anything especially surprising. You know, they talked about what a huge game it is, how much they'd love to win, how they want to do it for the fans and the history of the club and so on and so forth. After that, Antwostecoglu came in. He was really interesting on his future. He came closer to admitting than he ever has done before that this is going to be his last week. He referred to the fact that in previous jobs he's gone out with a bang, had one last big game which he's won, and he's good in these situations. He was specifically asked when he talked about getting Australia qualified for the World cup, then going, winning the Treble with Celtic 2023, then going, winning the A League Grand Final with brisbane raw in 2012, and then going. But then he was asked, I mean, he was effectively asked whether or not he wants to go. And there's been a bit of a narrative recently about whether or not Postecoglou would go by mutual consent, whether he would want to leave. But in this case, Postecoglou actually said, well, you know, I think there's a lot of work left to be done. I would like to keep doing that. So I think people will read into that that maybe he would like to stay under different circumstances. Also, I think, you know, Pastor Coglie made some headlines by insisting that he was not a clown. This was in response to the headline of a column that was written elsewhere. Clearly he had seen and not particularly liked, which is something we have seen. We had some little bit from Postcode in the past. You know, he does talk a lot about being someone who likes to cut out all the external noise and he doesn't care what people say about him and so on, but he is very, he's very aware of what, what is written about him in the media and he does have a. Have a view on it. So, yeah, it was, it was interesting press conference. Although I did leave it thinking Tottenham have got a huge game on Wednesday night. All the attention, all the questions in recent weeks have been about the narrative, his future, the legacy and so on. And, you know, actually trying to think about how the game's going to go tomorrow night. You know, which players are going to, spurs going to play, how are they going to try and play, you know, will it be son Richarlison or tell on the left? Which I think is a huge decision he's got to make. Wasn't really so much, much of that, but I guess the answers to those questions we'll find out on the pitch tomorrow.
- [09:08]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Yeah, thanks for that, Jack and Jay. We'll talk about the team selection in just a second. But we have to talk about the sort of clown comment and I guess Jack makes a really fascinating point, actually, for someone who likes to cut out the noise. It's clear that, you know, he's quite aware of a lot of the media that surrounds him anyway or been spoken about him in general. Postecoglou has had an interesting relationship with the press through his tenure at Tottenham. And in fairness, some questions have been thrown at him that I think are slightly unjust. But would you gauge his relationship with the media and how he's dealt with the media since you've been covering Tottenham?
- [09:41]
Jay Harris
So I think his first year at Spurs a lot of people considered him. I wasn't covering spurs at that point, but a lot of people perceive him to be a bit of a breath of fresh air because he was so direct and honest in his dealings with the media and he still is now. I think what's changed this season is spurs are playing badly and he's getting a lot of criticism and he's always been quite grumpy when spurs lose. Most managers are whenever their team loses. I think he's probably one of the worst. I remember when they lost to Newcastle in January and Joe Linton had handballed it in the build up to Newcastle's goal. I think it's in an interview with a BBC reporter and he just repeatedly says if all things were fair and equal, we would have won that game. And just refuses to expand on that. He's accused the media of turning gold into crap. He said that some of the comments he receives a cheap and shallow can. Can understand that to a degree. You know, he's spoken about there being a mole in the camp and he's going to find the person who's leaking all of his information. It's just hard to believe him sometimes when he says he doesn't care what people write about him because he seems to be so hyper aware of it that you think you're sort of suggesting to me that you talk about it so much that you do quite care about it and what people are saying. And I think what he's probably been guilty of at times this season is creating more drama. Sometimes the best managers, after a difficult defeat, after a controversial decision, just straight back the questions. And I think Postecoglou has sometimes blown up the situation even more. I think with the clown comment. It's obviously quite a strong thing to say. I know the journalist who wrote that column quite well. And I think an element of this situation which people won't pick up on just from watching that clip is that that journalist attends pretty much every single spurs press conference. I think gets on quite well with Postecoglou. And so I think there's an element of Postecoglou maybe being a little bit hurt that that individual has. Has used that particular term. So certainly the last few months have been very interesting. I've been on the receiving end at times of him not liking my questions. That's the nature of the job sometimes. But I think it's fair to say he's felt the pressure and if he does go, part of him maybe might be quite relieved that he doesn't have to sort of be put in front of the media twice a week and sort of explain himself. And my final point is that's something he said quite a lot as well. He feels like he has to defend Tottenham every week and that not enough other people defend spurs, whether that's internally, whether that's externally with former players, pundits, etc. So his press conferences are never dull, put it that way.
- [12:20]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Carl, very quickly I'm going to come to you, Joe, about the lineups. Just from a journalistic perspective, do you ever on caution when you know, a manager might be slightly heated about certain subjects or maybe exercise a bit of decorum, perhaps where you're like, you know, if I ask this, maybe it might poke it. But genuinely, you still do have to ask the hard question, surely.
- [12:42]
Carl Anka
Yeah, yeah. I mean, Jay uses the term straight back there from poster coque. And if he straight spots, you have to be the bowler, right? You have to make sure you. You do certain. You have to maneuver certain questions and try and ask certain questions in a particular way. I think the author of the. The piece that used the word clown, okay, they use clown and copy. If you look at the way they actually said the question, you can see they're trying to thread the needle and ask a very particular question. There. There are also times where tennis rally. There are times where you. I've been gone into a press conference, gone. Here is a lob. He was a very clear and obvious lob. And you sort of, you know all the tricks, all the tricks of being a salesperson, ask the question and start nodding because you maybe want to try and get that person to say something positive. Particularly with big games, when you know you. It's 12 people most loads, people from all over the world, some of them going to be asking questions in different languages as well. And you've got 30 seconds to ask your question that hopefully you want to turn into a 800 word piece. It can be so tricky. So, yeah, definitely. When you, when you see a manager who perhaps has built up a reputation of being particularly prickly, particularly after the feats, it can be odd. There are some managers out there, you know, after a victory oh, it's. I mean, I've seen Shawn Dyche after victory. That is a happy man.
- [14:06]
Jay Harris
Right.
- [14:07]
Carl Anka
Asking Sean Dice a question after he's won a game, 1 nil with a clean sheet is very, very different to asking a question. And Posh Cogley after a defeat where he believes he's been rightfully agreed. And your job as a journalist is to. It's a thread, that needle. I think the interesting thing with Tottenham Hotspur, I'm saying this is an outsider looking in, is they look as if they repeated a lot of problems United went through last season. So why spread into a crisis? A number of your key players out for the season, so the team takes a hit and then there's this sort of hope and expectation that things improve and they'll come back, but they can't, because you're not only asking your football player to play 100%, you're asking them to play 120, 130%, because they have to cover up for deficiencies of everyone else. And then a manager in their second season gets the end and goes, well, are they going to stay or go? Let's see what happens in this final. So spurs fascinate me right now.
- [15:00]
Ayo Akimwalerim
They're fascinating a lot of people, but still could be making history at some point, point in the. This evening, if they win the Cup. But, Jay, big one on selection. Look, we know Kuliski's out as they've still got a few injuries, especially in the midfield, especially around the creative parts of things, but I guess Sony Min's a really fascinating one for me, you know, captain of the club. There's a piece that's just gone out. I think it was on tnt, the broadcaster for the Europa League here. And all the fans were like sort of singing or talking to him on camera, saying, come on, bring us a trophy, Sonny. But I'll be honest, he probably hasn't had, by his standards, the best season. I know he's been injured as well and he's just returned from injury, but, I mean, he's definitely a player that can make a difference in this, in this game.
- [15:43]
Jay Harris
So, after spurs lost Aston Villa on Friday, it was my job to sort of write a piece about who I think should start the final. And I've not dared to look at the comments because I said that I don't think Son should never look at the contest. I think you need to take the. I think you need to remove the emotion from the situation. And I understand son's been an incredible servant to spurs over the last 10 years. You know, he spoke quite emotionally to Korean media at the beginning of last week about, you know, I've stayed, others have left. I want to complete the puzzle. I've got, you know, one piece left to collect and I really respect that. It's been such an integral part of Tottenham's history over the last decade. He's been a phenomenal player. Him and Kane have sort of held the club together at times. For him to. To end trophy list would be a shame, but. But he has massively underperformed this season. Zone scored seven goals in the Premier League and that will be the first time he's not hit double figures since his debut season 15, 16. He's looked slow, he's looked sluggish when he gets on the ball. One of our colleagues, Conor o' Neill, wrote a really good piece last week as well about son's issues this season. And one element of it is he gets far more touches towards the touchline than in previous seasons of his career. And I think if you think of the archetypal son goal, it was him sort of in left center position running onto a free ball from Kane, and he's just never put in those situations now. So an element of this is the way that Postecogli plays. And I feel like for this game, especially because they're missing Madison Kulasevski, two of the more creative players, that maybe you need someone like Wilson, Odebelt and Matisse tell dribblers who are going to cause you a little bit of chaos and sort of counterbalance. The fact that you're probably going to have quite a stodgy, functional midfield. I think my worry is if. If you play son, that he's going to slow the team down. But then on the other hand, we know he's a fantastic finisher. He's the captain. It would be a massive call to drop your captain for the biggest game of his career, apart from the 2019 Champions League final. So I'm glad I'm not the one making it, but my suggestion on the piece I wrote was that I think Oliver should start.
- [17:42]
Ayo Akimwalerim
All right, fair. Well, let's move on to Amaron's press conference now. Our United writer, Laurie Whitwell was wearing a lovely shirt and he was also there. Here's what he had to say.
- [17:51]
Laurie Whitwell
Hi, guys. So I'm still in the press conference room at the San Mamair Stadium after Ruben Amarin, Bruno Fernandes and Harry Maguire were on stage earlier. And it was an interesting press conference, actually. Usually when you get more than One person up on stage. It's a bit of a awkward question and answer format where perhaps one person dominates because that's the most interesting person. But actually all three got a selection of questions, a few funny moments actually. So Maguire was asked again about his prowess on the wing and up front and joked that Amarin's had him dribbling and training every single day, but then had a serious point to the effect that he actually wants to be defending more often. He doesn't want to be having to go up top sort of late in games and trying to get goals. He wants that to be the striker's domain and he's more than happy to play in his favorite position. Then there was also a question about Reuben Amari's position, particularly as Antecoglou had been in this room about an hour beforehand. The question was put to Amarin that he's not under the same kind of scrutiny. It seems like, you know, no matter what happens tomorrow, he will be United's manager. That is the emphasis from those in charge that he is the guy for the summer and then beyond. But before the question could be totally finished, Bruno Fernandes cut across and said, he is. What do you mean he isn't? He is under pressure, effectively. Amarin laughed. It was kind of a slightly peculiar interruption for Menendez, but I think it was meant obviously as a joke. And then Amarin sort of replied saying, ah, he wants my job and he'll be a very, very good coach one day, but he needs to improve his mentality when he talks to people. So that was maybe a little shot back from manager to player captain to in line. So yeah, but a very light hearted press conference. Amren also obviously said that Xerxy, Lenny, Yoro, Dallow can all feature. I think maybe Zerk's off the bench. You know, you sort of looking at thinking, can Yoro actually start the game given the the center back situation. But yeah, he's obviously excited, happy that he's got those three players back to complement his squad because he said he's going to need, you know, the bench to come off the game and change it. But equally he wants to win the game very fast. He's not thinking about extra time. So yeah, really good press conference. Let's see how the game goes.
- [19:58]
Jay Harris
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akamolere.
- [20:04]
Sponsor Voice
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- [20:57]
Dane Brugler
I'm Dane Brugler. I cover the NFL draft for the Athletic. Spending the whole year working on a draft guide. I'm looking at thousands of players putting together hundreds of full scouting reports. All the nitty gritty details, the testing data, the stats, but extensive background research as well. Every journey is a little bit different. I'm on the phone with a lot of these guys. Hey, when did you start playing football? What other sports did you play? Tell me about your family, you know, learning more about these guys as people. Our draft guide picked up the name the Beast because of the crazy amount of information that's included. I have no idea how to quantify the hours I've spent putting it together. I've been covering this year's draft since last year's draft. There is a lot in the Beast that you simply can't find anywhere else. You can get the Beast and all the great coverage my colleagues do by subscribing to the Athletic. You can do that at theathletic.com/subscribe.
- [22:00]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Carl. I mean let's start on Jesuxi. I thought he was out for the season. I mean is he made some sort of miraculous comeback like that? He's in contention for a Europa League final. What's going on here?
- [22:11]
Carl Anka
I don't know what they're doing in that medical department. I don't know what discussions are being had. The way his injury was described when it was first announced, that sounded like he was going to be out for a month and if he's somehow coming back, you're going, okay. Is it cmos? Is it cryo chamber? He's a horse. Percent what one is it? I I don't think Xerxes is going to be able to play 90 minutes but the an option, having an option there giving, giving a bit extra depth in particularly in the Forward. Three areas could be useful. This is. I'm pulling all sorts of faces. I try. I have not written my. The Manchester United version of Jay's piece of who would I start in that Europa League final? Because I simply told my boss, if I think about it too much, I'm going to. I'm just going to overcomplicate it. I want to go full tactical and do something ridiculous like play Xerxes in a size of center back. That's a joke. That's a joke. Listen, I'm not actually suggesting that. I think it's a really interesting contrast right now in last Friday. Of course last Friday. But United and spurs had their games moved to the Friday in order to give preparation for this Europe league game. Tottenham essentially played the B team. Jay, you can correct.
- [23:22]
Jay Harris
No, that is correct. And that's been the case for pretty much since February.
- [23:26]
Carl Anka
Okay, so. So posacockly playing the B team, United went pretty strong against Chelsea perhaps to build rhythms and. And playing chemistry there. And then both teams lost. And now you've got the contrast of these press conferences where Angie's looking pretty prickly, whereas Amarin's feeling relaxed and able to make jokes not only to journalists but also to his. His players there now both teams can't lose this game yet. If you talk to the fans on the way to Bilbao, it sounds as if both teams are going to lose this game. It's a really. This is such a strange situation. On the flight from Paris to be. One spurs fan asked me essentially he said to me, spurs, spurs need to win this because it'll be the first time when we being spurs win a trophy in ages. And it'll be so, so important for us to just get the Spursy the lads. It's Tottenham to get that off the proverbial. Off the back. And he goes from United. Is that the same thing or is it just. Is it just another trophy that you win loads of trophies? He said, is it just like opening a new credit card for you because you just need credit card Champions League football. Well, it's a bit more complicated than that, but yeah. Two, two, two supposed super clubs. I think it's fascinating how both managers are approaching this in public. Amarin is just looking so much more calm at this point in time, despite the fact that he probably needs to do a little bit more to win fans on side because he's only just been there.
- [25:01]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Yeah, well, let's. Let's move over to the match then, Carl. You know, United have lost the spurs already three times. This season's got quite a good record against Manchester United. I think they're on spurs are unbeaten in six against Manchester United. If I'm, if I'm correct on that one, will this have any bearing on the final? I just see a final really as fertile ground, really, but that has to be lingering at some point.
- [25:24]
Carl Anka
So here is the the Manchester United fan thought process. Tottenham Hotspur have beaten United three times already this season. Reuben Amren has spoken and the reason he's spoken about is because I'm repeatedly asking him to talk about him. He's spoken about how United have been good in the Europa League because the physicality is different. He so before playing Leon in the first leg of the quarterfinals, he said one extra second completely changed the game. So an extra second of time on the ball in the Europa League gives United players just that extra bit of time to break down the fences. So you've got a team that's beaten you three times already this season. It's a Premier League team. It's a Premier League team that's known for playing aggressive, high, pressing football. Surely this means Tom Hotspur are going to beat Manchester United. That's like the anxious, pessimistic Manchester United thought, the, the ops, the optimist United thought and the one that I'm constantly trying to cultivate in my own mind is this isn't a Premier League game, this is a final. And Casemiro said in a 2018 Champions League final, he goes finals aren't for playing, they're for winning. However you can. There is a piece on the Athletic that will be going live this Wednesday lunchtime about Casemiro's United Korea and how weird it is and how he's sort of found his groove again in the Europa League. And if United have any form of advantage, it's going to be the fact that they have more players that have played in quote, unquote, the bigger games. So you've got someone like Casimiro who's played in four Champions League finals. You've got players like Mason Mount who got the assists in the Champions League final. You've got a player, Harry Maguire and Luke Shaw, who've played in a European Championship final, whereas Tom Hotspur don't necessarily have that sort of playing experience on that one off final, doing the, the sort of footballing dark arts that are necessary to win a final. And, and I think this is the optimistic United fan is saying we have more players that can do that and then therefore we'll be able to win regardless of the the previous three Games and the fact that it's a Premier League team. Jay, you going to completely shoot down my. My formulation?
- [27:28]
Jay Harris
No, no, no. I would say I think you're right on the experience element. Although obviously spurs have Romero, who's won the World cup back to back coppers and son has won an Asian cup, but otherwise there are quite a few players in that team who've not been in a final before. I was at the Europa League final media day last week, and I think might be Van De Ven's first final. I think a doggy said it'd be his first final dance. So there are quite a lot of young players in that team. I think the interesting part of this game is that, you know, when spurs beat United back in September, for example, as one of the best performances of the season, ten hag was in charge. Kudasevsky sort of ran that game and situations changed massively. 10 Hag's not there, Kudasevsky's out injured. December's game in the Carabao cup finals, spurs were in control. Fraser Forster was in goal, gave a couple of goals away, and then it descended into chaos. And I feel like the way United sort of need to beat spurs is sort of making it a bit of a chaotic mad game. It feels like United have thrived on chaos this season, but spurs in the Europa League have sort of completely changed their approach in the knockout stages of this competition. The second leg of the quarter final against Eintracht Frankfurt, I think they had 42% possession against Bodo Glimpse in the first leg at home, it was 41 away, it was 31. I'm pretty certain those numbers are correct. They might be off by a percent or two. So, you know, please don't hurt me, people. But the point is, when you talk about Postecoglou, you think of his philosophy as being spurs dominate the ball, they're half the pitch. But actually they've been a bit more pragmatic in the Europa League. So I'm really intrigued to see if he continues that approach against United, even though the sort of reverse worked for him earlier in the season. I actually do think that spurs have been better as a transitional team this season. You know, they got that 40 win over Man City, the Etihad, which was their best performance of the season. And that was when they didn't have a lot of the ball and they were just hitting City on the counter. So it's fascinating if he sticks with what's worked in the Europa League for the last month or if he says, actually, I Had success against United with this slightly more ball dominant approach earlier in the season. I'm going to go back to that.
- [29:32]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Yeah. Jay, I was speaking to Danny Kelly on a pod yesterday. It was sort of a Spurs pod regarding the Europa League final. And obviously we've highlighted the fact that, you know, it's been 17 years and 86 days since spurs last got their hands on silverware. I mean, as an Arsenal fan, I have to go to the day, but real talk, you know, let's not forget though, this is also a team that has got to a Champions League final in the last, you know, few years. But United trophy wise, you would say over the last 10 years at least that they've got way more in their hole. Does history matter when it comes to a final like this? Because you've spoken about the various experience, you and Carl, of both teams and both sets of players.
- [30:09]
Jay Harris
Such a tricky question because if you, you know, there'll be certain pundits who will say that it does matter and that is a massive contributing factor. I'm sure. I'm sure it is. It's probably a little bit overplayed because for example, the only members of spurs squad who were there for the 2019 Champions League final, I think Hassan and Ben Davies. So in theory most of this current squad are not burdened by that failure. They'll be coming into this fresh. Whereas sometimes, you know, you almost become so fearful of repeating your mistakes that that's a, a bigger impact. I do think the fact that obviously this United side, most of that squad were there for the FA cup final victory last season, of course that plays a factor. It's quite interesting. You often hear when teams reach finals. I remember hearing this about Newcastle when they got to back to back Carabao cup finals or a couple of years apart. And I think I remember hearing this about Brentford when they got to the championship playoff final two years in a row that, that first year everybody's so excited to get to Wembley to get to a final that they get a little bit carried away and they get too emotional. And so when they return a year, two years later, they're a bit more emotionally grounded. And so of course to help the situation, the Athletic has spoken to friends and family of Tottenham's players and got them to write all these emotional letters, which is probably not going to, it's probably not going to help. They all know it's a massive occasion for the squad, for the club, for the manager. Of course I think they sort of need to learn how to control that Emotion and they'll be fine. But then they don't have much experience of being in this position, so would it be a little bit overwhelming? And then, as we've mentioned, they've got a lot of young players and this will be a significant test for them. And how they handle it will say a lot about their future careers as well.
- [31:48]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Yeah. Okay. Now, Carl, before we move on, Gary Neville's been talking on Sky Sports and I'm always wary in quoting former pros with current squads when talking about things like this, but he's made quite an interesting one, actually, and said, you know, aside from Bruno Fernandes, he'd favor a Spurs player in every position over the talent available to Amarim right now. So basically saying spurs, fundamentally other than Bruno Fernandes, have a better squad. What are your thoughts on that? That.
- [32:20]
Carl Anka
Ouch.
- [32:21]
Ayo Akimwalerim
It's a big one. I don't. I don't know how I feel about that, but that's why I said I'd always caveat this with, you know, being cautious of former pros talking about current squads.
- [32:31]
Carl Anka
I think it's, it's. It's that this, this might be one of those manifestations of the team you follow is the team you watch the most, and therefore you see their perceived flaws and weaknesses the most. Whereas the perceived flaws and weaknesses of Tom Hber you might not be the most affair with. So therefore you only see their strengths or you only see the highlights. And this is me telling myself that, no, actually, Man United are better. Look at the Premier League table. It might be bad, but Tottenham Hotspur is still below Manchester United.
- [33:01]
Ayo Akimwalerim
You got to go that low.
- [33:02]
Carl Anka
Wow. That low. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is a real tricky one. The. Again, talking to Tottenham fans on the way here, they're talking about what it's like missing their midfielder. So that Bergwald is a doubt. He might not be there. James Madison's not going to be playing. Kulasevski is not going to be playing. Kulasevski has been essentially that spy all season. Jack Pitt. Brooke has been singing these praises and they say, oh, well. And the spurs fans I've been talking to have said, well, it's probably going to be midfield three of Sa, Bentoncourt and Basuma, to which my eyebrows just flew off my head. I went, oh, my God, that's legs. That's. That's a. That's a running midfield. That's a stodgy midfield. That's the sort of midfield United hate playing against because Amren's been talking about physical mentality all the time. So it, you know, the thing that makes Tottenham Hotspur fans worried that their midfield is going to be workman like, has got me super worried because I'm at workman like midfield and there's three of them. And because Amarin's only going to be playing, you know, three, four, three, it means there's two midfielders against their three. And if you put three runners against the United midfield, that's problems against running. I'm going, oh, no. Oh no.
- [34:06]
Jay Harris
Oh no.
- [34:07]
Carl Anka
And I think this is, this is the thing of the person, the football friend who's going to enjoy this final the most is you, IO, the Arsenal fan. Because this is going to be a nourishing hate watch. No matter what happens, right?
- [34:20]
Ayo Akimwalerim
I don't think I'm going to enjoy it because either way I lose. There is no grace in this final for me. I might not even watch it for that reason.
- [34:31]
Carl Anka
I think this, this is it. In that, yes, I am, I am in one of the most beautiful places in Europe to watch a football game. Yes, this is my job and I get, I get to talk about football and hopefully I get to educate, inform and inspire people. But for, for, I want it for two hours, I'm going to be in the San Mama Stadium and I'm going to feel physically ill. Regardless of what the score line is. Regardless of. I'm just going to be.
- [34:54]
Dane Brugler
Oh, my God.
- [34:55]
Carl Anka
Oh, my God. And I think a lot of United fans are going to feel that way. A lot of Tottenham hot fans going to feel that way. Anytime I'm talking to two fans. Oh, no, we're terrible. And, and the. Any opposite side. No, we're terrible. So Gary Neville's just saying all of that in, in a far more eloquent, clippable manner of just. There's a lot of dread here because there's so much on the line for both teams and both teams are in such bad form.
- [35:19]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Yeah. Very quickly, Jay, pound for pound, other than Bruno Fernandes, are Tottenham a better squad than Manchester United?
- [35:26]
Jay Harris
I think so. But what I would say is that I do think some. I think there are a couple more United players who probably get into that. Spurs starting 11 if you did a combined one. I think Ahmad and Garnacho are probably better than spurs wingers right now. I think that's fair to say. But I'd take Solanke over Hojlund or Zirk. See, I would take, I think a doggie Van de Ven Romero Porro. That back four is pretty good. Vicario probably just edges Out Onana. So, yeah, I think spurs is the better squad all round. The Athletic FC podcast, proudly sponsored by Betfair.
- [36:00]
Ayo Akimwalerim
So this is the part of the show where we look at how teams and players have been playing differently with our partners Betfair. So, Alex, we're looking ahead to the Europa League between Tottenham and Manchester United. It feels like a pretty open game, but what are the numbers saying as to how this one might go, mate?
- [36:19]
Jack Pitt Brooke
Yeah, well, how often are we talking about a major European final involving sides placed 16th and 17th in the Premier League? And the jeopardy that is involved here is quite staggering. It's the difference between an acceptable trophy winning season and quite frankly, a disaster. And from a betting point of view, it makes it really difficult to get involved in the match. Odds prices as both sides are so untrustworthy on those match prices. Manchester United are the favorites to lift the trophy at 3 to 4 on the Betfair sportsbook. Spurs themselves 11 to 10. But that man United price is just far too short to get involved with. You know, odds on to turn up on the night and get the job done feels way too skinny for what we've seen this season. We have to remember as well, these sides have played three times this season already. Spurs have won all three matches. And sometimes historical head to head data can be sort of blown out of proportion when trying to find a bet. But we have to take it into account in this game because we've got the same teams, the same squads, the same managers, all in the same season. So these three games should really hold some weight. And it's another reason, in my opinion, to ignore Manchester United's prices. And if you look into the players in those matches, it's a real shame that both James Madison and Kulasevski are out injured. But a player that stands out is Pedro Poro. Of the fit players in spurs's side, only four average more shots per 90 than Poro, who's become a real attacking threat this season. He's having his best attacking output in a spurs shirt with four goals and nine assists. And what jumps off the page is 71 of his attempts have come from outside the box. And we can back him here at 10 to 11. So close to evens to have a shot from outside the box now that could be blocked, he could clear the stadium for all we care. That would be a winner. So that's a great price to attack. And it's four to one for him to have two or more, which also catches the eye. He had two from distance and one on target in the EFL cup match between these two. In a game where spurs were missing some of their big attacking guns, I think Pedro Poro could well add to his goal involvement tally. So along with those shots, the 4 to 1 that he scores or assists looks great value to me. And you've got to remember now on Betfair we have safe sub. So if Poro was to come off with an injury, his replacement would come on and take the score or assist back to keep us live. Which is another reason to take advantage of the four to one.
- [38:28]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Yeah, okay, Alex, thanks for that. I mean, may the best team win. Let's get back to the pod that was play different brought to you by Beck.
- [38:35]
Jay Harris
Get there.
- [38:36]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Let's look at Amarim vs Anje Postecogli. Because Ruben Amarim could become only the third manager to win a major trophy in his first season in charge of Manchester United after Jose Mourinho in 2016, 2017 and Eric Ten Hag in 2022. 23 seasons. Is the Europa League enough for Manchester United, Carl? Because also, I mean, the caveat here is if you win the Europa League, the real prize is Champions League football.
- [39:01]
Carl Anka
Amren said. Champions League, he said right now, Champions League, Premier League is like the moon for our players. So he said that after the defeat against West Ham, I'm going to go back to what that fan told me. This is like getting a new credit card. It's 80 million for winning the Europa League. And then the broadcast revenues from the Champions League open up a whole new financial realm that will help you not only pay off outstanding debts and outstanding, quote unquote, bad transfers, but also help you when you are putting yourself in front of other players. So Laurie Whitwell reported earlier this week that Niam Dalap and the other representatives, I should say, met with Manchester United. I think that pitch, it goes a lot smoother when you have Champions League football than if you have no European football. And I think that's the importance of Is winning the Europa League enough for Ruben Emeritt? No, because we know what is enough for a Manchester United fan, and that is winning the Premier League again. That is winning the Champions League again. But I think this trophy works not only in credit in the sort of financial sense, but also credit in terms of Amarin going. Believe in me and look what I can get. You give me more of what look at what I've achieved with a squad with only one player brought in, Patrick Daugu, and I've managed to deliver you this. If you Believe in me more and give me some further tools and resources. Look what else we might be able to achieve. And I think that is the if I was one, Aaron's PR agent or spin doctor, which I'm not comment section. I know what you're going to say, but if I were, that's what I'd sell it as.
- [40:34]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Yeah, but you know what, talking about belief, Jay, because I was listening to Angel's press conference as well, and I think a journalist asked him, you know, how does it feel if this is his sort of, sort of penultimate match for Tottenham Hotspur? And he actually talked about, you know, putting that aside and just really understanding what this really means for, for the club and also the players and the people that have worked behind the scenes to get the club to where they have been now. You know, Amarin might speak of believe in me next season, perhaps postecoglou doesn't have that luxury, but winning the Europa League for Spurs, considering where they've been in terms of trophy droughts and all that kind of stuff, Jay, I mean, that would be incredibly significant for this club.
- [41:15]
Jay Harris
Yeah, it'd be huge. When I spoke to Mickey Van de Ven at the Europa League final media day last week, he said that when he first joined spurs, he was getting comments from, on his Instagram, from. From people saying, oh, you're going to be trophy list for the rest of your career now. You're never going to win anything. That tag has obviously been used to beat spurs over and over again for the last 17 years, and I think it would just be transformative if they won. It removes that tag from the, you know, it's the monkey off their shoulders, but also a little bit more than that. I think it would give the players belief at the end of a really difficult season, not just in terms of results, but also in terms of the injuries they've suffered. You can sort of tell these players, you know what, all that sacrifice, it was worth it in the end. You got there. It probably retains certain players who otherwise might be thinking, you know, we've got a season outside of European competition. I'm a Netherlands international, an Argentina international. I believe I should be playing at a higher level. It means they can look forward to playing in the Champions League, they can reinvest in that squad. So it'd be massive. And I just think it would give the, the squad the club belief that they're sort of heading in the right direction. They've had a few near misses. The Champions League final, the Carabao cup final, when Mourinho was famously sacked a couple of days before. And so I think it would just be something that at the end of a difficult season the fans could sort of cling on to because there's been protests about the board this season as well. And so hopefully if they did win, it'd be something that might sort of unite everybody and they can kick on next season.
- [42:43]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Okay, now quickly gents. I know you've both collaborated on a piece on the Athletic right now, Manchester United and Spurs whose seasons have been the worst. According to Carl, it Spurs because United are just above them. But you know, what is your major verdict? We'll start with you, Jay. What's the major sort of understanding from your conversation?
- [43:02]
Jay Harris
I think, I think it is Spurs, 21 league defeats and they don't have the excuse of having changed managers in the middle of a season. This has been postecogly the entire time. I think Postecogli himself has admitted that he made mistakes, particularly with the way they approached the beginning of the season. And I think at least with United they, you know, if they lose tomorrow, they can sort of turn around and say, okay, I sort of. Carl alluded to Reuben Abram has only signed one player that he wants. They're going to completely change things in the summer. They can look forward. Whereas this is basically the entire poster Koglou era hinges on 90 minutes or maybe 120 minutes in penalties in Bilbao tonight. So I think it is, it is spurs, unfortunately.
- [43:43]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Do you agree, Carl? I think you do.
- [43:47]
Jay Harris
Sorry.
- [43:48]
Carl Anka
Sorry Jay. It's always, it's always, it's always a pleasure to team up with Jay and talk about football because I think he's, he's. The way he views the game is. Is fantastic. But, but yeah, it's.
- [44:08]
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- [45:05]
Jay Harris
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Accumulara.
- [45:12]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Do you know what's really interesting about this final? We did a poll with our journalists on the Athletic and there was also sent out to, you know, fans to see which fans wanted who to win in this tournament. And it's so interesting watching. Get the stats for all the clubs other than Arsenal and West Ham. Resoundly, every club wanted Tottenham to win this final. That is like I, I couldn't believe it. I thought there'd be more people if everyone. Manchester United. But it's a really interesting one. I don't know whether that's United hate, but it's really fascinating. Carl, what do you make of that?
- [45:50]
Jay Harris
Can I just quickly ask, does that mean even Chelsea fans wanted spurs to win more than Man United?
- [45:56]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Very quickly? Let me look at it. I've actually screen grabbed it right now. Chelsea. Chelsea. No, actually, I lie. Chelsea.
- [46:03]
Carl Anka
Just.
- [46:03]
Jay Harris
Okay.
- [46:04]
Ayo Akimwalerim
51.9.
- [46:05]
Jay Harris
Wow. That's much tighter than before.
- [46:07]
Ayo Akimwalerim
8.1 to 51.9.
- [46:10]
Jay Harris
Wow. I mean, it's very close, but I.
- [46:12]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Can show you that. Now look at, look, look at the blue versus red.
- [46:16]
Carl Anka
Wow, look.
- [46:19]
Jay Harris
That's, that's, that's.
- [46:21]
Carl Anka
Apu still runs deep. Abu still runs deep. And, and, and football fans inevitably root for, for underdogs. So I can't, I can't say, stand here and say spurs about the worst season and go, why are people rooting for the underdog?
- [46:36]
Jay Harris
Because look, there you go.
- [46:38]
Ayo Akimwalerim
All right, fair enough. Very quickly, gents, I know it's just a little last bit really on, on what this both means for both clubs moving forward. And you know, Jay, you know, if spurs don't win the Europa League and there is no Champions League next season. You talked about progress earlier. Spurs still need reinforcements regardless of who's at the helm. What does this mean for them, conducting business over the summer? If none of those things exist, it's.
- [47:05]
Jay Harris
Going to be a little bit tricky. You know, the best players in the world firstly want to play for a team that's in European competition. They want to play for teams that can offer big wages. It's already been reported earlier this year that Tottenham's wage bills come down in the last couple of years. And that's not exactly going to be helped if they're dropping or if they're not playing in Europe's elite competition. It just means especially the start of the summer will be A bit chaotic because they'll probably need to be looking for a new manager. They won't be in the Champions League. They'll be ordered these massive question marks, and it just means that the drama continues into the summer, whereas at least if they win tonight, they can sort of frame it as. Thank you very much, Antiposter Coglu. You know, it's been tricky and challenging. Two years you got on a high. We're now in the Champions League, and because of that, they're probably more likely to attract a higher caliber of. Of replacement and players in the future as well. But of course, if they're not in that competition, how much they can invest in the summer, which I think Daniel Levy, in his statement when the financial accounts came out earlier this year, already alluded to the fact that they've got to be careful with how much they spend. It's probably only going to become more difficult and they might have to sell a couple of players.
- [48:15]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Okay, who's winning tonight, gents? Opta has Spurs, a slight favorite to win the Europa League this evening. What are we saying, Carl? I'll start with you with the United angle.
- [48:32]
Carl Anka
United are going to win. It's going to go to extra time, but United are going to win. I have to say United.
- [48:37]
Ayo Akimwalerim
I don't think you said anything else.
- [48:39]
Carl Anka
I mean, I'm contractually obligated to say that, but also.
- [48:42]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Do you believe it? I'm looking at your eyes.
- [48:45]
Carl Anka
Eyes.
- [48:45]
Ayo Akimwalerim
You've blinked twice.
- [48:48]
Carl Anka
Look at me. Look at me. I believe it. Manchester United are going to win this. It's going to take. It's going to take extra time, but you know you're going to win this. I have to believe there is no. I wouldn't. I wouldn't have made this trip if I didn't believe. I wouldn't be here if I didn't believe.
- [49:00]
Ayo Akimwalerim
To be fair, it is 53.3% in favor of spurs, so it's only marginal.
- [49:05]
Carl Anka
So not too long ago, I asked someone with experience of Opta as to what makes it a supercomputer rather than just the computer, and they shrugged and went big pipes.
- [49:18]
Ayo Akimwalerim
What you say, Jay? 50.3% for spurs to marginally take it.
- [49:22]
Jay Harris
I think something I've not really spoken about today is the return of Van de Ven and Romero, and that's sort of been crucial. 2 Spurs's progression in the knockout stages of the the Europa League. It sort of coincided with the second leg, the last 16 tie against Azad, Alar, and interestingly, neither of them have played since the second leg of the semi final against Bodo Glimps so Potter could be rested in both. I think they give spurs the advantage. They complement each other perfectly and we saw at Old Trafford in September what Van de Ven can offer you. Charging forward on a mad run from center back is something different as well, but I think his recovery pace doesn't completely eliminate the threat of Garnacho Ahmad etc, but certainly helps. And I think when Tottenham have had that solid platform of that first choice platform Vicario, they have been much better this season, they've just not been able to call upon it that much. So I think that gives them the edge.
- [50:19]
Ayo Akimwalerim
Okay, brilliant gents, let's end it there. What a final it's looking to be. No one can really call it. It's going to be interesting. I'm probably going to hate it, but may the best team win. Jay Carl, thank you so much for your time. We'll be back tomorrow.
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Carl Anka
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