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- [00:00]
Narrator/Advertiser
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- [00:45]
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- [02:26]
Ayo Akimolere
Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me Ayo Akimolere. Bournemouth came from behind three times to draw 44 with Manchester United in the game of the season so far at Old Trafford. So what do more drop points at home mean for Amarim? And have we seen signs he will finally change formation? All right, in with us for today. We've got Adam Crafton. We've also got Karl Anker as well.
- [02:54]
Carl Anker
That's gonna break. Oh wow. Too much game creepy and a celebration.
- [03:00]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
To match the score line. Bournemouth Keep on battling, Carl.
- [03:05]
Ayo Akimolere
You're at Old Trafford. You witnessed that eight goal thriller. Amin said after the match. It was a fun game for everyone at home. Was it a fun game for you? How do you even rationalize what we all saw?
- [03:17]
Carl Anker
How do I rationalize it? That's what happens when you see two teams with two teams that we can politely say skip leg day. Okay, so if you look at the, the best attack, the best qualities of both sides, attackers Bournemouth with Anton Semeno, Manchester United with Brian and Bumo and Bruno Fernandez. These are players that are strongest when they are playing quickly, when they are running against unstructured defenses and when they've got the ball, ball at their feet in the running pace. Which means the game ideally for both teams has to be played quickly. Which means eventually you get the last 15 minutes at Old Trafford where the ball is just going bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. And midfield is more of a casual suggestion than a sort of tactical requirement. Reuben Amman said it was a lot of fun. If you watch on tv, I think that's him going, I did not like it. Ira Ola said that he enjoyed it. He said, yes, okay, it's only one point. But he said he does enjoy it and he believed that a 44 is a little bit more enjoyable than a nil nil, which, which brought a smile to my face in the press conference room. But honestly, anyone who finished their match piece yesterday without using the cliche football bloody L chapeau, because at full time, all I could really think was bloody.
- [04:38]
Ayo Akimolere
Hell should have seen the little WhatsApp group we had going. Messages from Carl were absolutely hilarious. Adam though, although Man United Drew was 3.29 XG, 25 shots, 9 shots on target for United, they still couldn't get it over the line. But I don't know, man, that first 20 minutes felt like Old Man United. It felt like front foot football, super attacking and it looked great.
- [05:01]
Adam Crafton
They're back, they're back and then 40 minutes later you're like, they're back, but it's the other version of them that's back. They have periods of games where they play really well and I think in general they start games pretty well, which, you know, given how much preparation time they have this season, they should start games very well because otherwise it's like, what are you doing all week? I think that there's a period in every game where the midfield gets tired or gets misshapen. Whether that's because Casemiro gets tired or Fernandez sort of starts to wander a bit. And loses that bit of discipline. And then I think another bit which you do have to recognize last night is they had a really young and inexperienced defense. You know, Heaven, I think, had moments last season where he looked like he could be a really good player. I think the more I see of him this season, it's a bit unfair because he's just kind of just come in from the cold. I think he does look short at the moment of that level. And I think Lenny Yoro is having a really difficult season, consistently really difficult season. So that meant United were kind of always going to have to score three or four goals to win this game. And even then that wasn't enough. And you have to remember they were playing against a team who love chaos. Bournemouth are quite off and on in the 3 o' clock slot on a Saturday, and it's the game in the States I always choose to watch because it's always fun and it's always chaos. And they have really good attackers and they're pretty bad defensively. So I don't know if this game told us more about, you know, United style or just how Bulma just sort of inflicts this chaos, but for half an hour in the first half, United looked like they could be something so full time.
- [06:53]
Carl Anker
I, I asked the Raiola about how he viewed his team's attacking strength and he, as many Premier League managers do, he flipped it and said, actually one of the focuses for Bournemouth this season is the defense. He says, we have to work, we have to work on that defense because let's be really real, they lost several members of a very, very good back four, back five. However you want to describe it, Petrovic is the new goalkeeper. Wilson's gone to Real Madrid, Kirk has gone to Liverpool. So they've had to work there. In terms of Manchester United starting strongly, Adam, I think this is something that's been steadily increasing as the season's gone on. United very much want to get the first goal and very much want to get the go ahead goal because United are, for better or worse, a confidence team. The longer they're in front, the better they seem to play. The, the, the, the more confident they are, the, the greater the passing angles, the crisper the game plays. And then when they concede, we saw this a lot under Eric ten Haag and, and slowly we are seeing less of it now under Ruben Amram. When they concede, United are prone to just imploding. So there was a real, real problem on the Eric and Haag where they'd concede you know, punches and bunches. They. It wouldn't be. They just lose one goal. They'd concede three, two or three in about 10 minutes again. Oh, here we go again.
- [08:12]
Adam Crafton
But, but Carl, they still do. I mean, it's happened so many times this season. You know, Bournemouth Tottenham away, Forest away. Brentford was two goals in 12 minutes. The Grimsby game was two quick blows. And. And you get this sense within games that they go from being a team that know they have a plan, that know they've been working on it all week, to all of a sudden there's a setback and it's like the world's falling in and it's like it's happening again and again. You know, this feeling of all those sort of scars of the last, I don't know, decade almost. It's like the castle's falling apart and it's kind of emot epitomized by. And he's brilliant, like in so many ways, but this kind of emotionally brittle at times. Captain Fernandez, who goes from starting a game looking really disciplined in central midfield doing things that you think the manager wants him to do. And then by the end, it's like this kind of ruler of the Rovers Sunday league kind of I'm the man that takes the all. I take every set piece, I want every throw in, I want every. You know, and I'm not blaming him at all for that, but he just kind of feels like the emotional energy of the team and you can see it slip away from them in this space. And then the stadium starts to believe it as well, I'd say.
- [09:34]
Carl Anker
So I've said this for several seasons now. Bruno Fernandez puts the fun into dysfunctional football team in that he's a very unorthodox football player in the. I'd say. The 2010s increasingly saw number tens or attacking football players begin to prioritize ball retention just as much as creating chances. Kevin de Bruyne at Wolfsburg is a very different player to Kevin de Bruyne three years after working on the Pep Guardiola. Whereas Bruno Fernandes is still like, is still very much gone. I'm going to get the ball forward. And that is always his intention. And he's not really a player with the pauser or, or the put my foot on top of the ball, look up and scan the options. It's I've got the ball. Where can I get this forward. Can I hit the through ball? And there's loads of three balls out wide, loads of through balls down the middle. Because he wants to help his team win. Now, when you have an unorthodox player at the heartbeat of your team, that means you will have unorthodo, unorthodox results, unorthodox fixtures. But I think one thing that is really interesting about United this season compared to last season and compared to the bad section of Eric Ten Hag in the season before that, is while they are still prone to these implosions, they don't completely. They're not completely devastated by it. Now, I had a. In a previous life when I tried to be a filmmaker, I had a tutor once described to me this term of being Tom Hanks smart, which is where you are intelligent enough to get yourself out of a situation that you were stupid enough to put yourself into in the first place. And I feel this when I watch Manchester United in that they've got just enough attacking ability to make up for the defensive errors that are nearly guaranteed in every single game. It's a. It's a ridiculous draw, a thoroughly entertaining draw. A draw that is very much in the style of how you can, what you can describe as classic Manchester United. So they were, they were brave. They use these players. They. They sort of went, all right, fine, well, we'll just keep going. And I think that's the sort of draw that you can almost get a bit of buy in onto what Reuben Amren wants as a head coach. Now, I think also, what also helped in there is Manchester United played in the back four in phases, didn't they?
- [11:45]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, we'll definitely talk about that in a second. But I'm just on this point of game, Adam, I'm thinking, so you've got players like Casemiro who've played at a high level for Real Madrid. You've got De lit who's actually played for Bayern Munich, Ajax, it's been in Champions League, all that kind of stuff. So you've got players there. Bruno Fernandes, I know you say, might be emotionally slightly volatile, but like, you've got players there who've played at the highest level international football. When it comes to the crunch, surely those are the players you need to call on to just level things down a little bit. I've been here, done that. We need to see this match over the line instead. What feels like an implosion always seems to happen. Why aren't those players doing what they're supposed to be doing in terms of settling down that team and saying, look, I've got the backline, Casemiro, I've got the midfield, let's just calm this down, lads.
- [12:31]
Adam Crafton
Well, it's a good question. I think if you go through the spine of the team, they actually don't have enough of those players. So, you know, you think about the goalkeeper is a very young goalkeeper, he's a talented goalkeeper, but he's not someone who's had a huge amount of experience at this level. They don't really have a center forward yet. You know, we're waiting for Sesko to kind of come online if you like. Delict and Maguire have been injured for a while, but I think these things happen even when they play at times. You know, Luke Shaw is probably their most experienced player and you know, he can be very good in a mix zone at times after a game and sort of very good at identifying what's wrong and he can play very well in periods of games, but he's not someone who really takes a grip of a game. I don't think, you know, in terms of calming it down. And, and, and I'm not sure it's that easy to do from that position either. From that kind of left center back position. And you know, and then the wing backs are quite, I'm not sure what the word is. They're frenetic. You know, they are if you're, you're not going to rely on Diogo Dalo to sort of calm the calm and game down and Ahmad's still learning the position. So you kind of look all over that team and there's a lot of parts which aren't quite complete yet and they've not got a kind of a Michael Carrick, right. Someone who can just slow things down and just we're going to keep the ball for a couple of minutes. There's so much of these things that just sort of at times it feels like United lets things happen to them rather than kind of just making sure that. Sure they're staying in control.
- [14:08]
Carl Anker
Okay, now there's a really good example of the elder statesman or the veteran player trying to calm things down in a game and you're not getting punished. So Bournemouth's third goal is Marcus Tavener on the ball in central midfield and he's just charging through the middle and he's. And Aiden Heaven, who is. He's not started 10 Premier League games. He's the middle center back and you talk to, you talk. I spoke to Phil Jones and Wes Brown about playing in the back three and how it's different compared to other roles and Phil Jones has offered to me that the middle center back role Is is the veteran. That is a role of communication. It's often described as the middle center back has the other two on a string and you're constantly turning a man on left, right, do shift all these things and you look at how England have played with the back three. It sometimes is Harry Maguire, but it's generally your elder player, the one who relies more on positioning and also your Gobi football player who's given orders left and right to put Aidan Heaven in there. That's quite hard because Heaven at this point in time is using his wide center backs as a reference to where he should be stood instead of telling those wide center backs, I need to stand here and there so I can sweep. So Heaven is in the wrong position. When Taverner is running through, he is jockeying where he probably should be, engaging Taverner. And what we saw was Casemiro tracking back and going the elder states, I'll be the grown up here and I'll foul you. So Casemiro fouls him, gets his booking, argues about where the free kick should be taken. He's not even arguing about where that used to be a booking. He's like, look, Bournemouth are getting some momentum. I'll just take one for the team. And that is good veteran football player calm things down. The problem was.
- [15:50]
Ayo Akimolere
But then there's score from it.
- [15:51]
Carl Anker
Yeah, the problem was boom of score from the free kick. And this is, this is the, the difficulty and the, the if you're a neutral, the joy of the Premier League in that sometimes you can do the completely the right thing in a certain situation to bail out a teammate and you still get punished because the Premier League has such a critical mass of talented players and even the players who you think are not the best in the Premier League at a certain thing are still good enough to hurt you in certain moments. We'll get into this about the, the formation in a little bit, but I think it was really telling that United were really good for about 30 minutes and they stopped. And the post match press conference, Iriola said, oh yeah, we were rocked by United at the start, but then I made a change. And you see this loads in Premier League games, which is manager has plan A and then other manager goes, okay, well here's my plan B. And it's just constantly adaptation versus adaptation versus adaptation versus adaptation. And because the Premier League has just a bevy a surplus of so many different influences and so many different thinkers and talented football players, it's not just one way to do things right. Reuben Amarin is incredibly Talented coach from Portugal who plays a style of football that is atypical for many Portuguese coaches. And he's up against Iriola, who's from the Basque country. And yet he plays a side of football that's quite different from other Basque managers like Xavi Alonso and. And so on and so on and so forth. So even when Manchester United try and be sensible and slow it down, the problem is opposition player can still ping it through the gap in your wall.
- [17:22]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, can I just talk about this stat? I don't know if you've seen it, Adam. It's actually quite good. It's quite bonkers, in fact. So basically, Manchester United have still never lost a Premier League game at Old Trafford when leading at halftime. 328 games, 302 wins, 26 draws, 0 defeats. That record goes back to 1984. I mean, ridiculous record. But Bournemouth almost broke that right at the end as well. Great, great save from Lemons. But I mean, you got to give. You got to give the team that right. Like there's something to at least build on and say, like if we start games well, gents, we might actually get something out of this. I'm just looking at positives, mate.
- [18:01]
Carl Anker
Don't look at me like that.
- [18:03]
Adam Crafton
No, no, no. I mean, they came. They came pretty close. I always wonder with that stat, like what the record is for other teams because it doesn't feel like. It's obviously an amazing streak, but it doesn't feel like something that actually happens that often in the Premier League in general. Maybe the data. Maybe the data is wrong, but obviously, you know, it's an amazing. It's an amazing record going back a long time.
- [18:26]
Carl Anker
But this, the last time Manchester United were ahead at halftime and lost, Reuben Amren hadn't been born. Right? And now you can. Okay, you want to be really cynical. You can do stuff like. Well, other teams tend to be drawing at halftime a lot more than Manchester United. Or you can do this. But this is one of the longest standing records in not just Premier League history, but English football history because it goes back to 84. It also applies to. Beyond the Premier League. There's loads of other competitions. That includes in Manchester United. And this is me talking like a. I'm going to take my journalism hat off for a little bit. When Bruno Fernandes stood over that free kick at 3 2, I turned to Mark Critchley who was doing the full time debrief and I went, fernandez is going to save this record. You're going to get another paragraph to write about. And he went, you are. And I went, fernandez. There's no way Bruno Fernandez is going to let this record get broken under his watch. And lo and behold, and this is the, the fun thing about United or the things that United fans tell themselves about why their club is special and unique.
- [19:28]
Adam Crafton
Shall we, shall we do a segue? This is a good segue. Talking of long standing records, that was that very long standing record of like 50,000 games in a row that they've had an academy player in the team. And I'm curious how that's going to bear out with everything going on with Kobbie Mainoo. How did you think he did last night?
- [19:49]
Carl Anker
So he comes on in the 61st minute for Casimiro because of the aforementioned yellow card. And that was the loudest non goal reception from the Old Trafford crowd. So huge, huge roar of applause from the old traffic crowd. Several fans stood to their feet clapping. They want to see Mainoo play. And it's he's in a really interesting situation where Mainoo's almost become a point of contention and almost a proxy for this argument over does Reuben Amren rate the academy? There was a series of quotes in the embargoed section from Friday's press conference where he was asked about Mainoo. Again, Jamie Jackson at the Guardian simply went, do you rate, do you rate him? Do you actually rate him? And Amarin gave his answer and explained how in this shape or in this tactical scheme, one of the problems is Maino is more or less in direct competition with Bruno Fernandes as the sort of more attacking minded central midfielder. Jackson then asked him again, well, surely Mainer can play in Casemiro's role and which we've seen, right, his Premier League debut against Everton, he was the deepest midfielder. When he played for England in Euro 2024, he was the deepest midfielder and it was more Declan Rice going up and down.
- [21:03]
Adam Crafton
But that's in a three, right, rather than a two.
- [21:05]
Carl Anker
Yes, yes. Which again, Reuben Amren explained in that maybe if we played in the three, we mainly could do this, but if I did that I'd have to lose one play in the front, which I sort of went, oh, okay, you still view this as you always want to maintain a back three wherever possible. The thing that I find interesting about Mainoo is he has a great deal of sympathy, or perhaps sympathy isn't the word support from a very, very broad church of Manchester United fans. So we often talk about how you've got the Online Football Fan vs. The this season ticket holder compared to the leg, or what you call the. You know, you've got the legacy fan and the fan of the future and all that sort of super league talk. Whereas for the most part, United fans want Mainoo to play and they want mainly to do well. And I think this is why Reuben Amarin is being asked a lot of questions about Mania. And every now and again, Reuben Amering, it can feel a little bit prickly in his response about. He's just where there's been two or three times he said, you. I know you English people love him, but he's not the finished product yet. There's still more to go. I'd say in the 30 minutes he played against Wolf, he was good. He was more of a connector. Of course, he's not going to be breaking into tackles and breaking up play in the same way that Casimiro does or in the same way that Manuel Garthe does. But he. When you were a goal down and you need to make sure Man United can get the ball from their penalty area to the opposition's penalty error, I think Maine is very, very good at that. I think the fact Casimiro's yellow card will mean he suspended for Sunday, so there is a good chance he can. I'm not gonna say start, but he can play more minutes, so.
- [22:40]
Adam Crafton
So you think he'd start Ugarte ahead of him?
- [22:43]
Carl Anker
Unfortunately, yes.
- [22:44]
Adam Crafton
And I say because Maynu is competing. Because Mainoo is competing with Fernandez for the other players. Yes.
- [22:49]
Carl Anker
And also I think the way Ruben Amren talks about second balls or has been talking about second balls in recent press conferences leads me to believe he wants a more combative element in games. And Mainoo, unfortunately, is. Is more of a lover rather than a fighter when it comes to attacking, or at least in terms of aerial balls as well. He's not. He's not the most robust.
- [23:12]
Adam Crafton
And that kind of social media war kind of fused last night. Right. Because his brother is there posing for a photo, or half brother, I should say.
- [23:20]
Ayo Akimolere
I was going to ask you about that.
- [23:22]
Adam Crafton
Posing for a photo which is like a black T shirt that says Free Kobbie Mainoo, which is interesting in the sense of, like, it's not the first time we've seen kind of like brothers of young Manchester United players kind of go on social media or kind of make a point of kind of challenging what is happening with their family member at the club. And I found that interesting, one, because it was clearly very deliberate. It was done to get noticed. Two, because I think sometimes what family members do, sometimes it really reflects a player and sometimes it really doesn't reflect a player. But you struggle to believe that he wouldn't have said to his brother, I'm going to do this or you would. If that was my brother or sister and they're turning up at Old Trafford wearing something that's going to have a reputational impact on me. You would hope that there is a conversation beforehand saying, are you comfortable or not with that? Now, is he freelancing? Is he just doing that? You know, who knows?
- [24:29]
Carl Anker
Who knows?
- [24:30]
Adam Crafton
This.
- [24:30]
Carl Anker
That is pure speculation. What I will say is it's in really poor form. I, I thought that was needless, silly and irresponsible. From Jordan.
- [24:42]
Adam Crafton
I think Love Island Jordan, yes, Jordan.
- [24:45]
Carl Anker
From season five of Love island in the United Kingdom. I think there is such. Again, to go back to the fact that there is a very broad church of Manchester United fans that support Mainoo and doing that unnecessarily creates division. I think the. You are unnecessarily, you're waving a red rag in front of people that want to engage in bad faith. And I'm quite concerned that the conversation now will be turned to questions about Mainoo's character, mainly apparent salary demands instead of Main is very good 30 minutes at old Trafford. Because you. I said unfortunately, when you just asked me whether or not it's going to start, I'll make myself very clear. I love Mainoo. I very much want him to be a Manchester United football player for the entirety of his career. However, I share a similar sentiment to that that was shared by Paul Scholes and Nikki but last week in that I don't think Manchester United under Ruben Amar is the best place for him right now. And if I was in Mainoo's team or in Mainoo's circle and he came up to me and went, I've got an offer from this club, I'd say you probably have to go, yeah, look.
- [25:53]
Adam Crafton
In January, he needs to play. He needs to go and play some football.
- [26:00]
Producer/Host
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- [27:19]
Carl Anker
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Ayo Akimolere
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Carl Anker
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- [27:55]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, let's. Let's move on. Let's talk about the system finally, because we've got still so much more to discuss on Manchester United. Amari was asked about it after the game and actually this is what he said. That is for you to discuss, not for me.
- [28:14]
Adam Crafton
I will say the same thing. You can play with the same players. Looks like one thing is another thing now, guys, is for you to and.
- [28:24]
Carl Anker
I know that you guys know that I trained this week, the back four.
- [28:31]
Adam Crafton
I don't know how, but that is a good thing for you guys to.
- [28:35]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
Discuss this this week.
- [28:36]
Ayo Akimolere
Amarim, they're saying, I don't know how you know, but we actually do know because Laurie Whitwell wrote a piece on it yesterday. Let's do as he says. Carl. Let's discuss the formation. Did you see anything in that back four?
- [28:49]
Carl Anker
First of all, chapeau to Laurie Whitwell, a man who's meant to be taking time off and yet still managed to report two stories on a Monday, one of which really threw the cat among the pigeons. I think the first 25 minutes at Old Trafford, everyone's going, is that back four? Is that back? What's going on here? So what we know for sure. Around about the Wolves game, Reuben Amren apparently said to his squad, a change is coming. We don't necessarily know what he meant by that. But also in preparation for this match there was a serious training time dedicated to Manchester United lining up in a 4, 3, 3. Whether that was going to be an in possession shape, out of possession shape, we didn't know until a ball was kicked. Starting the game it looked very much like that's a back three, unless Reuben Amarin's playing Lenny Yoro and Aiden Heaven as a back as you sent back partnership. So I didn't think so. And then as the game progressed it looked more and more like Manchester United were playing in possession in a 4, 3, 3. So it was a partnership. It was Diogo Dalo and Lenny Yoro, interestingly as your fullbacks, Luke Shaw and Aiden Heaven as your centre backs. And Amadjalo had a very far more advanced and central position compared to where he normally works as a right wing back. So at some points it looked like a 4, 3, 3. At some points it looked like a 4, 4, 2. Ahmad said in his mixed zone post match that at some points they shifted into a 4, 4, 2. I'll also say there were definitely points in that game where Manchester United were definitely playing with a back three or a back five. It felt like Manchester United were taking a leaf out of Crystal Palace's book. So Oliver Glassner's palace, they play in a 343. We've done a lovely video about this, haven't we?
- [30:33]
Ayo Akimolere
I was just going to say how.
- [30:34]
Carl Anker
And how Palace's version of a 343 is different to Manchester United's one. And one of the big differences or key differences that has been pointed out even by Johnny Evans on Monday Night Football in Sky Sports is that for many coaches that do a back three, the back or a back five, I should say the five can become a four because it shifts over left and right depending on where the opposition is trying to attack down the wing. So if you're attacking on the left, it'll shift over round and that wing back will push up and it'll do this way. Whereas previously last season the version the back three for Ruben Amren, it was the middle center back who would push up in possession quite often to create a 4, 3, 3. I asked Reuben Amarin about why he does this and he said it was to clear the space or clean the space for the goalkeeper. Whereas against Bournemouth it looked more like Palace. It looked more like the back five is shifting over and Looked more like when Bournemouth pushed up past the halfway line, they would default into a sort of 4, 4, 2 out of possession shape at halftime. I emailed Opta and I said please send me the average position maps and they sent me where Rumble stood when United had the ball and to me that looked like a four three, three. I put that in my match piece. You can see that on the Athletic as well. Things changed again towards the Opta tend to relax things when the substitutions began to get made, but at full time. I spoke to a former Manchester United player and he believes that Manchester United spent the last 15 minutes of the game playing in a 4 2, 4 as well. This is the and if you're getting bored of what I'm saying, this is why Pep Guardiola says formations are just telephone numbers and why Emma Hayes says you need to completely ignore formation talk because formations are fluid. You have your in possession shape, you have your out of possession shape, you have your shape when the opposition is on the halfway line, you have your out of position shape when the opposition is right by your penalty area. And I think the ultimate intention of Reuben Amarin has always been a chameleon shape or a very fluid shape that starts off in a 3, 4 3. But depending on the situation, depending on if you're in possession can morph into two or three things. What we saw against Bournemouth was one that spent more time in a back four than a back three, and I think that is down to the characteristics of two or three players. And the confusing thing there is unfortunately two of the more important characteristics for this back four to continue is Ahmad and his qualities as a 1v1 player. He's not going to be around for last seven again because he's at AFCON and Brian and Boomer as well because they're two or three places, two or three phases when Boomer was next to Kunya and they're almost 3, 5, 2. So I liked it at least in the minutes where Manchester United were ahead. I'm not sure if it's going to continue on Sunday because two of the players that were really important to making it work are going to afcon.
- [33:22]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay? I mean, look, in your words, let's move on.
- [33:24]
Carl Anker
I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry for that chat.
- [33:28]
Ayo Akimolere
Don't tell any of the tactics guys that though. All right, let's move on. I don't know if you've seen them, Adam, but these comments dropped from Bruno Fernandes just before we started recording, saying the club wanted him to go Summer, Remember, he was linked with a move to Saudi Arabia at the time as well. Now, let me read you a little portion of the interview with Portuguese outlet Canal 11. It says, I decided to stay also because of family reasons, but because I genuinely like the club. The conversation with the manager also made me stay, but from the club side, I felt a bit like if you leave, it's not so bad for us. It hurts me a lot more than hurting, it makes me sad because I'm a player they have nothing to criticize about. I'm always a available, I always play good or bad. I give my all. Then you see things around you, players who don't value the club as much and don't defend the club as much, that makes you sad. Look, at the time of recording, we've not heard a response from Manchester United regarding that. But Adam, he showed his value in that free kicker scored against Bournemouth. It was an absolute pearl. It was so beautiful. Did these comments surprise you?
- [34:36]
Adam Crafton
I think he's right in both things that he says. To be honest, I think it's true that there were probably some people at the club last summer who wouldn't have minded if he'd left. You know, from a financial point of view, I also don't think it was a. I don't think it would have been an unreasonable position. You know, if you are a football club balancing. Attempting to balance the bucks, you look at a player that's hitting 30, central midfielder, a team that needs rebuilding, a huge amount of money that probably won't be repeated on the table from Saudi Arabia. You can understand why some people in the boardroom would look at that and think, maybe we need to have a conversation here. You know, maybe we don't need to be begging him to stay and we let him make the decision and we let the coach have a chat with him. Now, it sounds a bit like what he might have wanted is a bit of a love bombing, essentially, from everyone at the club saying, you know, you're our captain, you've stuck through us through the best years of your career, even in the worst years, basically, of Manchester United for quite a long time. And we're going to repay you by coming to you with a, you know, with a. With a lot of love and maybe another contract and whatever, you know, And I'm not saying that's necessarily what he wanted, but you can imagine someone might have been feeling like that in that position. I think what he probably got was, you know, a warm chat with Ruben Amarim saying, I'd quite like you to stay. I want you to stay. This is what we plan to do this summer. We're going to get another two or three players and probably a bit of a shrug of the shoulders from the Ineos guys and the Glazers, to be honest, because he'd probably look at it and think, well, look, you've been the captain for the last three or four years and it's not taken us very far. You know, I don't mean to be insensitive to it there, but, like, this is more than just the performance of an individual, it's performance of the team. So at the same time, God knows where they'd have been in the last few years without him there. Right? So there's all those different things at the same time and then there's the whole other conversation of, well, but the team might have been. Might be really different without him there. It might be a more coherent team without him there. That's like the unknowable. What we do know is that time and time again he produces these incredible moments of individual quality, often when the team needs it most in that. Almost like a comic book hero. And, you know, I mean, the three kick last night was just unbelievable. I was on the phone to someone while the game was going on and watching the game, and I was like in the middle of this conversation, like, trying to be professional, and I just went, oh, my God. Because it was like, it was an unbelievable three kick. It was like, you know, right in the top corner and, you know, there was the assist for Mason Mount last week against Wolves. All these moments that you just take for granted. So, yeah, it's. I don't think it's anything to really worry about. It's like Bruno. Bruno is very open in interviews. He sounds off a bit, but I also think he's probably. He's pretty much right and probably telling the truth.
- [37:43]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, Carl. Is there a chance in a weird universe that Bruno Fernandes isn't at Manchester United after the World Cup?
- [37:52]
Carl Anker
It does feel like after the World Cup, a lot of players at Manchester United are going to have their futures up in the air. Casemiro's contract is expiring. My understanding is not as good as Adam's understanding of transfers, but it feels as if Saudi Arabia is still there as a possible suitor and could still possibly have an approach after the World Cup. But also it's up to Bruno, and also up to Bruno's wife. He did mention this in a previous interview where he said his wife. He had this discussion with his wife and they said, well, we'd quite like to stay in Europe. So maybe if Portugal have a successful World cup, he might decide, I've achieved all I could achieve here and it might be time for me to go to Saudi Arabia.
- [38:33]
Adam Crafton
I would expect that, I think. I don't know if it'll be Saudi Arabia, but I really wouldn't be surprised if next summer again, if the right offer comes in from a Manchester United perspective, particularly if they don't really do anything this season, you know, if it's another sixth, seventh place finish, I wouldn't be amazed. You know, he does seem, I don't know if you saw the clips of him at full time last night.
- [38:58]
Carl Anker
Oh, I was there. It was incredible.
- [39:00]
Adam Crafton
Sorry. Or if you saw, if you saw him at full time, he looks like actively distressed by, by what had happened, you know, in terms of Man United not winning the game. So, you know, from having. You have to watch them every week, imagine what it's like playing for them every week.
- [39:19]
Ayo Akimolere
All right, Carl, let's leave you to go. Appreciate your time as always. Great analysis as always and yeah, we'll be back here at some point again in the next couple of weeks, don't you worry.
- [39:27]
Carl Anker
Take care, my friends.
- [39:28]
Ayo Akimolere
All right, let's leave Manchester United and now let's turn our attention to another agitated club. Yeah, we're going to talk about Spurs.
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- [42:08]
Ayo Akimolere
Foreign.
- [42:13]
Producer/Host
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akimolere.
- [42:17]
Ayo Akimolere
Well, joining us now is our spurs correspondent Jack Pitt Brook. Jack, fair to say that there was some strong reaction after spurs were humbled against Nottingham Forest. Nottingham forest beat them 3 nil on the weekend. What are the noises coming out right now about Thomas Frank's position?
- [42:32]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
I suppose there's basically two sets of noises. One is the fans who are very grumpy with how bad Tottenham were in the Nottingham Forest game. It was, I mean, the amazing thing is it wasn't even their worst performance this season. I think it was probably their fourth worst performance of the season, some might even say fifth. But they were very bad and they didn't really do anything, not for the first time. And they, you know, they were well beaten 3 nil by a team who I think they, you know, they would probably under normal circumstances expected to be better than and who had just played a European game in Holland on a Thursday night. So yeah, like negative vibes in the main from the fan base about that performance. But what really matters for now is that the story that I broke yesterday which just said that there have been or there, there are in the normal course of events, discussions about the manager's future. But the, the position of the majority shareholders, the Lewis family, is that they will, they want to give Thomas Frank time.
- [43:38]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, I mean, I don't know if you've seen It Adam, but Garen Nevills just interviewed Mickey Van der Vern and I think it's on on sky and he was talking about how Mickey Van Vern was talking about how shocked he was that and Postecoglou left the club so abruptly now. This was meant to be a sort of a new era for spurs under Thomas Frank. Are you surprised by the fact that he hasn't hit the ground running or yet again do we need to more time?
- [44:05]
Adam Crafton
It's never a good sign for Tottenham, for Tottenham fans when their players doing an interview with Gary Neville, is it? They probably still have scars from Kane doing that years ago. Yeah, but I don't know with Spurs, I, I just to me they're like, they're exact. They're kind of what I expect them to be this season, which is a, a pretty poor team that doesn't have a good transfer window that missed out on some of their top targets. That's adapting style wise, that has huge scores from home form going back over a year that finished in a terrible position last season, that has the challenges of three games a week in the Champions League, that's missed two of their best players, Madison and Kulasevsky all season. That's kind of all the, the balance right to the Thomas Frank is terrible argument. And then. Yeah, is Thomas Frank maximizing what's at his disposal? Clearly not, you know, because for all of that spurs should still be creating more chances than what they do. They appear to be in a malaise. He hasn't managed to kind of connect with the fans, you know, and give that. I thought that was something he would do in the kind of way that like when Klopp first went to Liverpool, they might not win every week, but there would be this kind of minimum level of effort and having a go that would kind of get buy in and that I think that's what he's missing at the moment, that bit of just that sense that spurs fans are coming away from games and thinking we've not left it all out there.
- [45:44]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
I just want to completely agree with what Adam said. It's not the results. The results are fine. Basically, you know, they're in a okay position in the Premier League, they're in a fairly good position in the Champions League. The Premier League is really bunched at the moment, which means that there's lots of potential for upward and downward movement. I don't think anybody's worried about the league table. It's the fact that when they've been bad, they've been really like Profoundly, worryingly bad. And even the games that they've won, they've generally won through organization, set pieces and a bit of luck. And they have not really given the fans anything to believe in. It's not like, it's not like. It's not like they look like a team that's trying to do something difficult and they can't pull it off yet. But there's a sense that maybe in six months time they will be good if you watch them. And like lots of fans have this feeling that you watch them and you don't really know what, what the end point is. What's the, what's the goal here with what he's got?
- [46:42]
Ayo Akimolere
I mean, we talk about the injuries and stuff, but like, let's say this is a fully fit team, Jack. I mean, surely this is fixable.
- [46:51]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
I wouldn't accept that premise really, because it's like the players aren't fit.
- [46:55]
Adam Crafton
Like there's no, you know, they're never fit.
- [46:58]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
Well, I mean, it's not like. It's not quite the same as last season. So last season they had a spate of soft tissue injuries, you know, lots of hamstrings, hamstring, groin and so on. Whereas what they've got the moment is their two best midfielders, basically their two best attacking players from last season, Madison and Kulasevsky, both had to have knee surgery in the summer. Dominic Solanke has his own issue, an ankle problem. He had an ankle surgery at the start of the season. So that's. Those are probably the three best players from last season. None of them have started a game yet for Thomas Frank. Plus you've got Kingman son who left in the summer, hasn't really been properly replaced. Not the first time spurs have lost a good player and not replaced them. And if you put that all together, the options that Thomas Frank has at the moment are just not very good, particularly in attacking areas. Now he could be getting more from these players, but I just don't think the players that he has got are that good. And I don't think there's any. In a world in which the injured players are still injured, I don't think there's any good quick fix. You know, a lot, lots of people compared this to Nuno, right, four years ago. So Nuno was the manager for the first 10 league games of the 2122 season. It obviously wasn't the right fit. There were lots of, of parallels, lots of continuities between what we saw then from Nuno and what we see now from Thomas Frank. Now, in that situation, there was a quick fix, right? And that quick fix was the fact that Antonio Conte was sat by a beach somewhere waiting for the call from Daniel Levy. The call came in, Conte flew over and he took over a team that had Peak Harry Kane and Peak and Peak Son in. And all of a sudden they were really good and they were fantastic. For the second half of that season they were averaging, you know, best close to two points a game. I think the second half of that season they came fourth and obviously, obviously it all went wrong the next season. But in that moment it was a very good quick fix. There is no such quick fix like that available at the moment. There is no world class manager sat by a beach waiting, waiting for the call from Tottenham. Even if there was, he wouldn't be inheriting a team that's got Kane and son in it. So I don't think there's any, there's nothing that Tottenham can do right now to easily and quickly become good. I don't think that's the problem.
- [49:04]
Ayo Akimolere
Isn't this part of the issue though, I think, Adam, like, you know, people talk about project managers and Mikel Arteta, you can put in that bracket, I'd say Eddie Howe at Newcastle, you can put in that bracket. You look at Spurs's long line of managers recently, no one's been there long enough for you to really see what they can do over a long period of time. Is this a fan base that's just a little impatient, you reckon?
- [49:29]
Adam Crafton
Yeah, they've waited quite a long time, right, for their team. You know, I mean, look, they, they won a trophy in what, May, June, whenever it was the Europa League final. And I think for so long there was this feeling that, you know, spurs need to win a trophy, need to win a trophy. As though it's going to like make everything better forever. It's not, you know, it's. I'm not sure spurs fans are happier now than they were a year ago, really. Like they're happy they had that night. It's a hard one with the, the kind of sense of a project because everyone, every, every fan claims to want a project, but every fan also wants their team to win. And that's, I think that juxtaposition hits even harder when, you know, spurs, it's expensive to go and watch Tottenham play. It's expensive and it's more expensive than most other teams in the league quite often as well. So if you are charging those prices, there is an expectation as and again we're not really talking here about results, but obviously results to an element, but more about the performances. You can't charge like some of the highest price in the league and people go away without seeing the team have a shot. There is a danger that this gets away from Thomas Frank and that the spurs kind of react to this pressure. You know, I look at that game, I think it's New Year's Day, Brentford away. I look at, if things don't get a bit better, you can see that becoming like a bit of an inflection point for Spurs. And you know, it was interesting what Jack reported yesterday about kind of the Lewis family being, you know, being happy, but all of these owners are happy until they're not. And I just wonder, Jack, how long are they prepared to wait, do you think, for this to get better?
- [51:15]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
Ultimately, I think that like owners, owners and decision makers don't have total power. Right? So much. So much the power in reality in these situations lies with the players and with the fans. If the players, if the players aren't having a manager, then they will make it very clear on the pitch and that can force, that can to an extent, I think, force the owner's hand. And you know, that certainly happened in the past at Tottenham. If the fans aren't having a manager at all and the fans want to make home games toxic, that again, I think forces can force the owner's hands. So.
- [51:50]
Adam Crafton
So all the players having this manager?
- [51:52]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
I think so. No, I think at the moment, yeah, I think they like him. Everything I've heard is that they like him. He's a very likable person. He's obviously very different personally and football wise from his predecessor Postecoglou. I do think he is popular, but I also think that any, any statement from people who run or own a football club about not. Or any position about supporting a manager, ultimately it can, you know, that can get eroded by events. And I just think that if they continue to play very badly at home, I think it's probably, I think the home form is probably Thomas Frank's biggest weakness. Like they've won two home league games this season against Burnley and Brentford. They've been really, really bad, like profoundly bad in lots of those home games. And we've seen the home atmosphere getting pretty toxic. So they were, they played Fulham at home a few weeks ago. They were 2 nil down after 6 minutes. Vicario was getting booed and jeered by the home fans. So I think if that, if that sort of thing continues to happen, you know, they've got. I mean they've got Liverpool at home this Saturday the 20th and they've got Sunderland at home first week as well in January. Yeah, they've got palace in Brentford as way between the two. If the home games get more toxic more consistently, then I think that that alone really, really undermines the manager's position.
- [53:16]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, well let's leave it there Gent. Really appreciate your time all of you. It's been a really worthwhile discussion. Adam, Jack and also Carl who joined us earlier. Really appreciate your time. We'll catch you guys tomorrow.
- [53:29]
Producer/Host
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabro and Jay Beal, Executive Producer producers are Abby Patterson and Avi Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
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Adam Crafton
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