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- [00:01]
Mark Clattenberg
When you think about businesses that are selling through the roof like Allbirds or Skims, sure, they have a fantastic product and yes, they have brilliant marketing as well. But an often overlooked secret to it all is the business behind the business making selling simple. And for millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Nobody does selling better than Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. And the not so secret secret with Shop pay that boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning way less carts going abandone and way more sales going. So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling on the web, in your store, in their feed, and everywhere in between. Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout that Allbirds and Mattel uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com theathletic all lowercase go to shopify.com theathletIC to upgrade your selling shopify.com theathletiC Some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking Allstate first. Like you know to check the Jumbotron first before attempting to eat a stack of Supreme Nachos in one bite.
- [01:19]
Rory Smith
Now you're just a meme that everyone.
- [01:21]
Mark Clattenberg
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- [01:36]
Rory Smith
I'm joined by a special co anchor.
- [01:38]
Mark Clattenberg
What up everybody? It's your boy, Big Snoop. D O Double G Snoop where can.
- [01:41]
Rory Smith
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- [01:43]
Mark Clattenberg
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- [01:49]
Rory Smith
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- [01:55]
Mark Clattenberg
Comparable plans plus streaming Respect when we up out of here, see how you can save on wireless and streaming versus the other big guys. @t mobile.com/apple intelligence requires iOS 18.1 or later the Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [02:11]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimwaleere. From the evolution of the profession to the impact of var, the pressures officials face has never been greater. Coming up, we're joined by a man who's refereed at the highest level of European football, both in the club and the international game hasn't been a hat.
- [02:33]
Mark Clattenberg
Trick scored at the tournament.
- [02:34]
Rory Smith
But Mark Plattenberg now completes one of a kind, refereeing the finals of the.
- [02:38]
Mark Clattenberg
FA Cup, Champions League and European Championship in the same year. An amazing seven weeks in the career of the concert official.
- [02:45]
Ayo Akimwaleere
With Fanfield conspiracies on the rise and scrutiny at an all time high, how difficult is it to be a referee? Here with us today we have former Premier League referee Mark Clattenberg, as well as our senior football writer at the Athletic, Rory Smith. Gents, great to have you with us. Mark, welcome to the Athletic FC podcast. An absolute joy to have you with us first and foremost. Right, look, 13 years in the Premier League. Talk to us about some of your highlights in your career within the Premier League, but also as a FIFA official. Let's not forget, you know, Euro championships and league games, favorite stadiums, you name it, you've seen it all. Talk to us.
- [03:27]
Mark Clattenberg
Yeah, so if we talk about the highest level, that was 2004. I became a Premier League referee at the grand old age of 29, which was quite unusual at, you know, that era that young referees weren't really given chances, it was more the experienced guys. So to get a chance at 29 years old, it was quite a huge thing. And then be career just developed at the Premier League level. I was given then international chances during the Olympic Games in 2012, which was based in London. I had the chance to referee the final which was great between Mexico and Brazil. And then just things started to develop. Mainly you still got your big focus on your European games, you know, the competitions, also the Champions League and you know, you set yourself goals at every start of every season. And I Never Dreamt at 2016, which was the pinnacle year of my career, where I could chance to, to referee the FA cup, the Euro Championship final and also the Champions League final in the same year, which was something, you know, incredible that you do work hard for. You sacrifice a lot in your life to try and achieve your goal, but to achieve them all in one go, it was such a crazy thing. And probably that was one of the main reasons why, you know, I decided in 2017 to change careers, maybe change cultures and try something new. Because I'd achieved so much. I didn't want to get bored of just doing the same thing week in, week out. I wanted to try something different. And that's why in 2017 I made the decision to go to Saudi Arabia.
- [04:47]
Rory Smith
Within refereeing is it, is that like a convention that once you've done maybe not a Champions League final, but like once you've done a European Championship final or a World cup final. Of that you done it was with.
- [04:56]
Mark Clattenberg
The FA cup final, but that's slightly changed because I haven't really got any experience or top international referees. I think Michael Oliver and Anthony Tilleb recently refereed the FA cup final on more than one occasion, which that never happened in our era. Once you'd refereed the FA cup or the League cup, should we say, because the competition changes names every so often. But once you've done them, two finals, that was it. That was it. And then you look at the European championships. What you have to remember is there's a lot of politics, certainly that goes on behind the scenes, but you've also got to rely on your national teams or your club teams, because even if you think in 2016, go back, forget England in the Euro, we had Manchester City in the semi final of the Champions League, and if they went on to win against, I think it was Real Madrid, I wouldn't be anywhere near the finals. So you need certain things to align correctly that the English teams don't do very well and the national team doesn't do very well to get that chance.
- [05:46]
Rory Smith
So during, like Euro 2016, are you. Are you sort of sat there like, cheering on Iceland?
- [05:51]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Get it?
- [05:52]
Mark Clattenberg
Yeah, yeah. It was a bizarre one because you get the vibe, I'm not stupid. What goes behind the scenes, how people talk to him like, pierre Luigi Collina was me boss. And, you know, he sat down and he said, you're not on holiday. And the vibes were that I have a chance to do the final, of course. And when England got beat off Iceland, I remember one of the UEFA committee members, referee committee members, Tapman is on the shoreline, said, I think you're the only Englishman that'll be happy tonight. That was a clear message that I have got a chance at the final. And then the next year we decide as a team, my refereeing team, because we had five officials, we had two additionals, which was Andre Mariner and Anthony Taylor behind the goal. So we all decided to go down to the fan zone in Paris to watch Belgium. Wales thinking Belgium's going to win, of course. And Wales created a spanner in the works because with Wales winning, it actually could have stopped us refereeing the final, because if Wales had beat Portugal in the semi final, I wouldn't have been able to do the final, of course. So you need a bit of luck as well, along the way.
- [06:47]
Ayo Akimwaleere
You mentioned Pierre Luigi Collina. I mean, probably one of the greatest referees ever in the world game. Is he as Scary as real life.
- [06:54]
Mark Clattenberg
Yeah. I think everybody's just intimidated by him. But what he did for me in my career was just incredible. He was the only one that really supported us. I had a. Had a lot of trouble behind the scenes with people like David Ellery, Mike Riley, who didn't really support my style of refereeing. They didn't like certain maybe me characteristics, where I dress, where handled me life. Probably. I probably have got some regrets when I look back, of course, but when you're young, you react in different ways. And Pier Luigi Collina didn't care about the politics. He didn't care. He just. He wanted a referee, a good referee, and he actually taught us a lot of things. Not just about refereeing, because refereeing people talk about the laws of the game. That's just one part of being a referee. We talk about understanding the game. And he taught me an awful lot about players, tactics, football, understanding what players expect. And that made me a better referee. And players trusted us more. When I started getting advices from Pierluigi Collina, so he. He was a big influence in my refereeing career at the later stages. Yeah, you've got people like George Courtney and when I was coming through, when I was a young referee, of course, but certainly near the end of my career, Pierluigi Collina helped me a lot mentally and also helped a referee big matches.
- [08:04]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah, fascinating. Right, let's go slightly back to the beginning here, because I'm always fascinated by the people that actually choose to become a referee, because it's a job that, you know, you face a whole heap of scrutiny and you put yourself in the lines. Then pretty much every match you play, what was in it inside you that made you want to be a referee? Did you play much when you were a kid? Did you just go, do you know what? I'm not that great on the pitch, actually. I fancy giving a few yellow cards in my time, you know, bit of payback.
- [08:30]
Mark Clattenberg
It's easy because I think every child that loves football wants to play football. I think, you know, I was no different. I wanted to play. I played Sunday morning, I played Saturday, I played for the school. I did everything I wanted. I wanted to be a professional footballer. I want to play for Newcastle Night, of course, but I just wasn't good enough. And then it was my school teacher who, Mr. Reach at Framington High School said, mark, look, we're going to invite you and some other students to go on the referee course and would you like to go on? And I said, of course, I Would like to go on it. Why not? Did me course and started refereeing junior football Sunday mornings. The Sunday morning football was great because it gave me the grounding that I needed because I was 16 years old, 18 years old refereeing men's football. And very, very quickly through the systems. I was fast tracked quite quickly to being a football league referee at 24, 25 years old, which was unique at that time. I was the youngest ever post 4. I think it was a big honor for a 25 year old to be refereeing football league level. And after that it becomes a profession and you're focused in being a professional referee and that's the ultimate. You know, when you, you start off, you don't realize what's going to happen. Because I was an electrician and people used to say I was crazy because I would refuse overtime at work double time because I just wanted to be a referee. A Saturday game for like May, 20 pounds, which you lost that 20 pounds because you lost it in the bar afterwards buying everybody a drink. So I think every child thinks, you know, I would love to go and play in the big stadiums and you know, when I got the chance to referee in the biggest stadiums in the world, it was such an, you know, an amazing thing that I would never have done that as a football player to do it as a referee. It was such an amazing thing to do.
- [10:02]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah, I just wonder, you know, for someone who did well so young, I mean, what were your toughest moments? And I'm sure there have been so many mistakes along that career even when you made it to the Premier League and I'm sure you're still constantly learning in your job as well because the stakes are much higher at that point as well.
- [10:17]
Mark Clattenberg
The only way you can learn and develop as a referee is by making mistakes. It's strange, but that's the way it works. And you know, even when I got on the Premier League in one of my first two years and you know, the Merseyside Derby always sticks in my mind where I didn't perform very well and you know, I missed a clear penalty at the end to Everton and it created such a difficult moment for me. But when I analyze it back, it made us a better referee. It, it helps you along the way. And you know, the Auburn Mikhail situation when I was accused of being a racist, that was probably the most toughest part of my life because it was something that pigeon world didn't know how to deal with it at the time. I had media outside me house and media and scrutiny around it was really, really difficult because everybody thought I was guilty. And even, even at first, I remember, even the first few hours and first day, I was like in bits trying to work out, thinking, had I actually done it, you know, in the heat of the battle? Because I questioned myself and I'm thinking, that's not the words I would use, it's I would do. But you still question yourself. And it was something that in the end, once I was proven innocent, I thought I didn't want to come back refereeing. And people were saying, well, why? Because, you know, you haven't done anything wrong. But I'd lost the love and it took me about a year to fall in love with it again because, you know, after being accused of something you hadn't done, it took a lot out of us, mentally and physically. And I thought, is it really something I want to do?
- [11:33]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Talk about the scrutiny and, you know, the Mikhail one was really fascinating. But what happens when that scrutiny also hits the spaces of social media as well? You see a lot of young referee, he's now dealing with it. Does it exacerbate it? And also, it's not just social media. You've got pundits as well who've got something to say about what you've just done on the field as well.
- [11:51]
Mark Clattenberg
Yeah, I've seen it all. I didn't have. We didn't have social media when I first started. In fact, we used to laugh because you would read the newspaper on a Sunday morning to read what your performance on a Saturday. And people used to say to me, oh, you've had a seven. And I'm like, I don't want a seven because you used to get mocked out of 10. And I used to always want a six because I used to turn the newspaper upside down and say to my wife, look, I've got a 9. I didn't want a 7 because I couldn't turn it upside down. But that's how you, you know, that's how people remembered, you know, because if they weren't at the match, you would get a small newspaper cutting from a journalist that would probably might say I was wrong in my decision. But then it was forgotten about. It wasn't online, it wasn't permanent. It was fish and chip paper. We used to call it Everybody wants prayers. That's the thing. I think when you look at social media, people want to see the actually done well, but unfortunately it doesn't really happen. You might get one person say you did okay, but millions of people say you didn't because you've upset one team, of course. So I try to avoid it, but it was. It's certainly a difficult subject. And, you know, I know the referees now in the pigeon world get huge support psychologically because of this issue where, you know, they're having to deal with a lot of what we call keyboard warriors who write whatever they want to write. I'm always a firm believer everybody's got an opinion, and I like to listen to people's opinion, but people seem to not want to hear anybody's opinion. They just want to hear themselves. And that's the problem with maybe society today, where everybody has an opinion, but they don't want to listen to other people's.
- [13:18]
Rory Smith
It's funny, you know, I used to. I started my journalism career a couple of years after. Only a couple years after you started your refereeing career.
- [13:25]
Mark Clattenberg
You don't look old enough, Rory.
- [13:27]
Rory Smith
Only a couple of years, Mark, to be fair, you know, they're sitting and writing down your opinion. Stuff is a lot easier than running around on a football pitch. But the ratings was always something you kind of did as a junior journalist. And I don't think we realized at the time, like, how seriously everyone involved took it. I remember a former player telling me that he used to get all the papers on a Sunday and check his ratings. And I kind of had to break it to him really gently that both 6 and 7 mean the same thing, which is I've not really noticed you, and I have to put a number next to your name. And I think for a referee, that's probably twice. That is what kind of what you want. That it probably means there hasn't been a really kind of difficult decision that you've got right, in which case you would get an 8 or a 9. You're not getting a 10.
- [14:08]
Mark Clattenberg
Come on. I've never had one there.
- [14:10]
Rory Smith
There hasn't been like, a controversial decision you've got wrong, in which case you'd be at 4 or 5. And I think the issue with social media is there will be a lot of people who watch referees and think that referee has been a 6 or a 7 out of 10, but you don't write that down. There's no reason to put that opinion out there. Whereas if you think the referee has done you wrong, you put that out there. But most referees are putting in really solid performances every week just because most games don't have anything especially controversial in them. You know, most games just happen. And it's the same with right backs or defensive midfielders. They're just sort of fine.
- [14:42]
Ayo Akimwaleere
I was just wondering, from a referee's perspective, and I presume this is down to experience, how do you manage letting the game move on, but also sticking to the letters of the law, because there's something about the stop start nature of football. And also sometimes people feel referees are in control of that. You know, you're a fan of the game, you love to watch good football, but also you've got a job to do on the field as well, you know, but then you've got the fans on the terraces going, oh, just let it play on. How do you learn that intrinsic skill to let the game flow as well as also establishing a sense of authority on the field?
- [15:14]
Mark Clattenberg
Yeah, but that was probably one of my strengths. I had many weaknesses, don't worry. But probably one of my strengths as a referee was I like to play advantage. I like to keep the game flowing as much as possible. I remember one game at Norwich against Chelsea in the Premier League. I didn't whistle a foul in the first half, not one foul in the first half. And to have a first half in a Premier League without a free kick is incredible. But there's a lot of elements in refereeing that, you know, a lot of people don't understand. And yeah, laws of the game is one of them, but there's a lot of other things that top referees have to go through in their decision making to make sure that you're trying to get the right decision.
- [15:48]
Rory Smith
Was it the game that set the tone for how you'd referee it? It didn't depend on your mood and like how you woke up in the morning. I'm in a terrible mood today.
- [15:58]
Mark Clattenberg
But.
- [15:58]
Rory Smith
Was it 10 of you sort of like, you know, you sort of take the temperature, what the game is like, and you can tell that, okay, this one's, this one's a bit fractious.
- [16:05]
Mark Clattenberg
For example, people talk about the battle of the bridge. People criticized us and some people praises. It's. It's one of them. It depends how you want to look. If, if you're a purist, then I'm going to get criticized for my performance because I let a lot go. The, the neutral will think it was one of the best games I've ever seen. So you've got to have a balance between protecting the players. Of course, there's some things that were out in my control that I didn't say that. Dembele, for example, when he gouged Costa's eye, that was off the ball. It's difficult to spot, but there was things that I could have done differently which would have had a different outcome in the game. And in the end the result was what it was. I knew before the game how much it meant because Chelsea were not having a great season. But when players are firing into the media comments, you know that there's a lot underlying here and you've got to analyze here what's happened in previous matches with the teams. Is it a derby? You know, there's a lot of factors going to preparation of a referee and I need to know what I'm going to face. I can't just go in negative before a game. I need to know everything that I have. It's not just about blowing your whistle so you don't go with a preconceived idea like people say, you know, it's more I want to be prepared physically and mentally as much as possible to try and come out of the game as successful as I can and for people to be, as you know, satisfied that the referee hasn't influenced the game.
- [17:24]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Brilliant. Well, let's move on to the next bit then, because we'll discuss Mark's time at Nottingham Forest.
- [17:31]
Mark Clattenberg
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- [18:36]
Ayo Akimwaleere
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- [18:38]
Mark Clattenberg
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- [19:10]
Ayo Akimwaleere
All right, Mark, you left the Premier League in 2017, and last season you returned to the Premier League in an advisory role with the Nottingham Forest before stepping down at the start of May. Prior to the end of the season, firstly, what. What was the experience like working with Nottingham Forest?
- [19:25]
Mark Clattenberg
And.
- [19:26]
Ayo Akimwaleere
And also, how did that come about?
- [19:28]
Mark Clattenberg
Yeah, it was an interesting challenge and one that actually enjoyed. It gave us a different perspective for football. One of the biggest things I learned was how much impact a refereeing decision can be. Players moods, coaches moods, the owner's moods, everybody within the football club, club. And I saw a different element of, you know, what goes on behind the scenes of a football club, certainly between the owner and the club. So, you know, it was a privilege, a short period of time to be there. And. And I certainly wasn't just there for referee. And it was, you know, a lot of other things. I knew Mr. Marinakis, who owns Olympiacos in Greece, and while I was there, head of refereeing in Greece. We had many fights, of course, because he wanted his team to win, but in the end, he had a mutual respect for the work I was doing. And also he wanted me to try and help him understand because what he could see, for example, in Greece or in Europe, the refereeing style and decisions weren't consistent with what was happening in the Premier League. And he was getting more and more, more frustrated because at the end of the day, he wanted not enough Forest to stay in the Premier League and they were suffering with results and, you know, had the risk of being relegated. So he just wanted, you know, somebody around the club that he could speak to personally. And I was more advising the board than I was getting involved in refereeing. And I didn't have any influence because, you know, I'd been out of refereeing seven years. It's a new group, and I didn't know any of the group and I didn't really want to know the referees. I don't speak to them. You know, they've got a difficult job without me speaking to them. I don't have any of the phone numbers. So for people to suggest that I had it, I was trying to influence anything. That wasn't the case. I didn't even go and see the referees. I wasn't really interested at all. I wanted to know, to see that not in a Forest, we're getting fair decisions or they were getting the same as other clubs. And at that time last season, I think everybody will accept, including their own KMI panel, that the Premier League have that Nottingham Forest Won the end of some raw decisions which were having a material impact on their performances and also their league position. So the owner felt it was good to have somebody around just to shout and scream at when things weren't going right. Before I arrived, they were sending a lot of letters. It was widely publicized that there were complaining a lot. And I was trying to, you know, help the pigeon well, but also the Premier League trying to dilute some of the. The complaints because some of the complaints were not correct within, you know, refereeing. And I could try and help them put that right. But it ended because, you know, the pressure from the outside and the media and, you know, this probably the stakeholders every week I was being under huge scrutiny for doing a job which I. I cannot half understand why, but I don't accept why a person who was a top referee, left refereeing seven years ago, couldn't go and work in a different job. Seemed to be that I'm labeled as a referee and therefore I can't do any other work.
- [22:12]
Rory Smith
Did you find that if there were decisions that Evangelis Marinakis was unhappy with, if you thought those decisions were right, they just happened to be kind of not in forest interest. Did he accept your explanation?
- [22:22]
Mark Clattenberg
Yeah, and that was. That was a positive because we're talking about cultures here. We've got different, you know, different nationalities. I was lucky that, that he had somebody around that understood the Greek mentality but also understood the English mentality. So to have that was quite important. And, you know, I could filter a lot of. A lot of things. Therefore, you know, it was my job to tell him that I don't accept that. I don't think that's right. And he would respect that because, you know, some decisions that I've made, I made from outside of referee, and I'm talking within the club. It actually had a positive impact from any. He respects them. Them judgment. So when I said, for example, it's a pen, it was a correct penalty, or for example, I remember that there was a game that played against West Ham and he wasn't happy with Nottingham Forest should have had a penalty. And it was clear. I think Nico Williams deliberately got tripped and it was a clear penalty. And it was a young referee and to be fair, it was one of them where the crowd put the referee under pressure to end up sending Calvin Phillips off for two yellow cards. And I didn't believe Calvin Phillips should have been sent off. And the owner was upset about not having the penalty, but I had to get the balance back to say, look, you've won 2 nil. It was 1 nil at the time. Calvin Phillips shouldn't have been sent off. And for me, a send off is more important because, you know, 10 could have went 1 1, but by they had it down to 10 players incorrectly, in my opinion. And the KMI panel after that proved it was wrong. It ended up 2 nil at forest. That didn't affect the results. But he was still upset that another decision had gone against him. But I had to give him some balance back, that, yes, it was correct, he was right that it was a penalty. However, the main point of the game was the red card, in my opinion, the Calvin Phillips which tipped the match towards Nottingham Forest and the end the one. So you have to get that balance back. But not everybody sees that balance. They just care about that one decision.
- [24:03]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah, you talk about being scrutinized for that position, but also, you know, you leaving the Premier League in 2017 and go to Saudi, that was another one that raised a few eyebrows as well. Do you think, you know, in conjunction, those two things inevitably had weight to why people were probably going, what you're doing, are you a referee? You know, are you still part of the game? Or you just here to find something, a new job for yourself?
- [24:24]
Mark Clattenberg
Yeah, I had other jobs. I was working in the media. So, you know, I'd worked in Greece, I'd done charity matches, I'd work, you know, write a column for a newspaper. So there was lots of different things I've done. So I wasn't just a referee. I should be allowed to pass on my experiences. What I can say, for example, I know what a good player is. I've seen good players and I've said, but he's a good player. Then you would hope that, for example, a scout would. One of the scout would go and watch it. You know, we've all got opinions and certainly just because I left to go to Saudi Arabia, that was an easy decision for me because one, I didn't have the motivation anymore to referee games in England because I'd done them all. And it was then hard every week to say, you know, you're refereeing Man United against Man City again. And I'm thinking to myself, I need a new challenge. And also the chance of me refereeing the World cup final would have been slimmed to zero. So I'm going into the World cup thing and I'm not going to referee World Cup Final regardless if England had got knocked out, because I would have been the only referee ever in the history to referee everything. So you know that you're going in with a negative feeling. When Saudi Arabia offered us me contract, which changed me family's futures, it was an easy decision. What I put them through for 13 years in the Premier League, and before that, it was time for me to pay them back, you know, to give them chances in life that we wouldn't have probably had as a referee in England. And it gave me a chance to, you know, financially, to change my life. And it was something that was an easy decision for me at the time, and one I certainly don't regret.
- [25:49]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Rory, you know, we're fans of football, and I'm listening to this, and I guess sometimes it's again, that case that actually we forget there are actually human beings behind all of this. And actually, you know, in any other job, to be able to pivot once you feel like you've had enough or to try something new when it comes to refereeing, it's almost as if you're a referee. That's all you do, mate. You know, if you're done, you're done. Enjoy the game.
- [26:11]
Rory Smith
No, I think. I think something that Mark said earlier really, really struck me that when you went into forest, you sort of saw the impact that refereeing decisions have on people inside a club. And we, you know, as fans, we. We forget that the club isn't just the extremely well paid players. It's the. It's the staff in the kitchen, it's all the coaching stuff. It's people who've got basically quite normal jobs just inside football. The people who work in the offices, the HR department at football team, you know, they are companies. I know we're not meant to say they're companies, but they are companies. They employ lots of people. And it's the only industry in the world, or sport is the only industry in the world where, like, the whole mood of the business isn't defined by, like, the Q3 results. It's literally, did you draw against West Ham at the weekend? Like, that is kind of what defines it. But I think the same thing happens with referees, that there is a tendency among fans, among players, among managers, executives, not to regard referees as human, which seems really stupid and it sounds like a massive exaggeration, but I think we, like, ascribe all these motivations to what referees do. And I mean, I haven't got this right every time either, but I've always, for a long time, made a point in coverage of, well, one, trying to acknowledge when referees do well in an unspectacular Fashion, but also not kind of buying into this really easy kind of out of. Well, the defining thing here was the referee, because I think too often it's easy to look at referees and think they want to be the center of attention. That is an easy thing to look at referees and do.
- [27:33]
Mark Clattenberg
That's furthest from the truth, isn't it, really?
- [27:35]
Rory Smith
And it is. I mean, but then at the same time, if there's, you know, someone standing with a whistle in the middle of 22 people, you know, it's a bit like, well, they're the one who's got the tool to get attention. But I think mostly they are people who. And obviously this, you know, takes all sorts, but they're trying to do their best in an incredibly difficult situation, a situation we are making more difficult by failing to understand that they are doing their best. And I find it strange that it's been tolerated for so long that the immediate thing that everyone comes out with after the game is, well, the referee did this wrong. And I think that on both sides. So it's interesting that Mark says that he went into a club and kind of realized the impact that a referee can have on a club, but I think on the other side as well, that we as a football culture in general don't necessarily realise the impact that our reactions have on the referees as people. And that's really important.
- [28:20]
Mark Clattenberg
The problem is as well is I think clubs don't. And I always said that, for example, Michael Oliver should go into Newcastle United and train with them and integrate with them and get a better understanding. Because I remember the issue in 2012 with the Chelsea situation with Auburn McKellen. I remember Bruce Buck coming to St. George's park because the referees were going to go on strike at that point. And everybody was upset because the scrutiny I was put under wasn't fair. And his comment was we were duty bound to report the incident. Yeah, you're duty bound, of course you are. But you should have done some investigation first, of course, because it wasn't Obama that was. He wasn't the one that heard it. It was Ramirez who didn't speak any English. So very clever that a person who can't speak English can make up something that I've said in majority accent. But that's another point and another argument. But Bruce Buck said, what's your problem? To us as referees, you live in a gated community, you've got security guards protecting your house, and that was the first time you realized you went, you don't know what goes on in the real world, we're just referees living a normal life in a normal housing estate. We don't have the protection like you do with football players. They're so far apart. And that's, that's the other thing Rory is. And that was something I understood. Football clubs are in this glass house and they don't realize what is outside. And everybody is duty bound, of course, to protect the image of the game. And you know, everybody gets frustrated with referees and being inside the club. For me you hit a really important point. Everything that filters down. It's not just the football players. Yes, they've got a duty to try and play well, but the kitchen staff, if you get removed from the Premier League, the financial hit is so much that they know that they could be made redundant. And you know, it's the morale. The mood across the whole of the club is always affected by the results. And there's an excuse culture brought in now where there wasn't years ago. When I first got in the Premier League it was, it was less excuses, but I think more and more maybe. I don't know if it's financial, is it pressure, but there is a huge blame culture now than there ever was, you know, working for the club. I could understand both sides. But ultimately I think what's created a bigger problem is the VAR system. I think for me, I think everybody accepted a referee making a wrong decision or analyze the decision wrong from, you know, what he saw. But in the end people accepted that. But what they can't accept, VAR still not getting it right. This is what I think's created an even worse feeling in football that the thing they've got a system in place that is foolproof and it's not, it's, it's not even technology. I hear when people say technology, it's not, it's a human being. Yes, the offsides now change because it's more technology based. However, it's still a human being that has to verify the decision. So it's a human error. And I think it's created a bigger problem now because the VR doesn't correct it. And it's a bigger frustration that you see out your two eyes and you know, we'll go back to me not in a forest is the Everton match with Stuart Atwell being a Luton fan. That created a story that the media were going to bring to Nottingham Forest. Nottingham Forest were aware of it and they felt it was an appointment that shouldn't have been made because it just puts everybody under pressure. In my world, when I'VE appointed referees. I understand that because I wouldn't appoint a referee to a game knowing that he could have a material impact on it, because it's not fair for the individual. You've got, as an employer, you've got to protect your employees. They've got a duty of care. And putting Stuart in that position wasn't a good duty of care because you put him in a situation which you don't really want. In that match, there was two decisions, in my opinion, not three, but there was certainly two decisions in that game which you can accept the referee making a mistake, but I couldn't accept the VR making that mistake. Even from a refereeing point of view, I would. Even if I was analyzing it as a referee, I would be thinking, why would I make that mistake? Because one, there was a clear hand ball where his arm clearly was outstretched. Ashley Youngster and the ball coming in and the last one was a clear foul from Ashley Young and I think it was a Hudson Odoy. So, yeah, we can move away from opinions, yes or no. But when they saw wrong, clearly wrong, I think it creates the bigger problem because there is a. There is a tool there for the referees. But I just feel that at the moment, VAR isn't being used correctly in the Premier League and this is creating this big fight in England. It's not happening everywhere. It just seems to be a big problem in England at the moment. Yeah.
- [32:44]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Just for context, I just want to point out that the game Mark's talking about was the game between Nottingham Forest and Everton around Stuart Atwell's suitability as a Luton fan to be officiating the game. Nottingham Forest ended up putting a tweet out saying, three extremely poor decisions, three penalties not given, which we simply cannot expect. We warned the PGMOL that the VAR is a Luton fan before the game, but they didn't change him. Our patience has been tested multiple times. NFFC will now consider its options. And now, just before we move on from this, Ruby, I just wonder how much of something like that or a tweet like that kind of fuels this idea of conspiracy when it comes to refereeing and things like that. Because it's an everlasting conversation. You know, Arsenal fans would have their chat, Manchester United fans will have their chat, Wolves fans will have their chat around that and decisions that be made against them.
- [33:36]
Rory Smith
Yeah, I think that tweet's not. You'd be struggling to describe it as helpful, to be honest. Yeah. The identity of Atwell as a Luton fan, as Mark says, Clearly, if there is one club that is unhappy about it. No, I'm certain that Stuart Atwell did not make any of those decisions because he's thinking, I bet I can keep Luton up here. I am certain of that.
- [33:53]
Mark Clattenberg
No, I'm certain of that also.
- [33:55]
Rory Smith
But the thing about integrity is that the optics of it are just as important as the facts of it. It doesn't matter whether you know in your heart whether PJ M'Welton say Stuart Atwell is the most neutral man in the world. He is completely capable of putting his feelings to one side as to be honest, quite a lot of people are and he will do his job to the best of his ability. That is absolutely will have been his approach and you can see why PGMOL wanted to kind of take that tack. But if the appearance of integrity is questioned, then integrity itself is questioned and there is no reason why. It seems really telling of obstinate, pitheaded. I'm not quite sure what the right word would be just to sit with him if you know that one of the clubs is going to make an objection. And I don't think that should be particularly controversial to say it's perfectly possible that Stuart Atwell is not prejudiced in favor of Lewton, but equally that he should have been removed from the game to avoid any appearance of impropriety. And it's really important. I think it's one thing that has been lost a little bit because there's almost. I don't know what Mark thinks about this, but it feels like increasingly there is a kind of state of conflict in which PJMOL are kind of trying to fight their own corner a little bit and push back on a lot of stuff that is probably unfair criticism. But the more they kind of dig their heels in, the more you wonder if their response is not as helpful as it should be. That would be maybe my kind of assessment of it.
- [35:13]
Mark Clattenberg
Listen, it was simple what happened and you know, on the Friday before Nuno's press conference the journalists were going to raise it and the club were made aware. There was some research done and it was realized that it was clear from some social media, some a lot of things that Stuart was a Luton Town fan, making people aware that was ever not in a Forest and Luton were in this relegation. But there was also the points deduction as well, hadn't been announced yet. So there was all of this in the. In the pot. And I tried, in my capacity within Nottingham Forest was to call P Jim well, to say, look, are you aware of this issue and Heejin well's stance was they weren't aware of it but they wouldn't remove Stuart from the appointment. I said no problems. The wish of the football club is that he's removed and changed. Of course, but it's your decision. You know, we can't force you to change. However, we just want you to be aware that this situation is going to be raised by journalists. Nuno will not speak about it, but to be aware. And I think what PGM well had let themselves down was that lost John Moss weeks before to take up a role within Scotland. And I feel that whoever was doing the appointments weren't aware of this conflict of interest. And Howard is the manager of the PGM world. Howard Webb, he would have just overseen it. He has people to do his job of course, but he's not going to scrutinize every appointment. He's hoping that somebody has done that and it was somebody's field in the system because John Moss had left. I understand why PGML didn't want to change because it makes him weak by doing something. But we did all this behind the scenes to try and help PG well because we know it's a difficult job. But I knew that it was a difficult situation because whatever happened in this match Stewart was always going to get criticized and I fell for Stuart because I'm a human being also an ex referee. I understand what's going to happen and. And I felt it was a decision and I accept what Paige and World did. But in my opinion it should have been changed when the draft appointments were done on the Monday and the agreement within the management team and nobody would have known anything different. But in the end is the tweet. I had nothing to do with the tweet by the way so just put that on record. I wasn't involved in it. The lawyers, the owner and everything else within the football club, even the players that coach and staff didn't have anything to do with this tweet. The tweet itself was probably. You're right was the way it was brought out after the match was unusual for English football. I think some this had never happened before where a club had made this. This step. I can guarantee that there's many letters going to the Premier League and P Jamwell and also the lawyers are dealing with stuff on a week to week basis about refereeing for a club to come out publicly. It's probably that was the first step which was an unprecedented step which was unusual and probably didn't help the situation because at the end of the day, Nottingham Forest still had many matches left to try and secure their status within the Premier League. So what you didn't want to create was a fight between P. Jamwell, Premier League and Nottingham Forest. Because at the end of the day, the ultimate goal isn't that decision as Stuart Atwell's decisions. The ultimate goal was to stay in the Premier League. In the end, that did secure the status and in the end that's probably all forgotten about. Unfortunately, it's probably cost the club a lot of money because the FA did charge. But the process, everything that went on that day was a unique situation, but certainly one that it left me in a difficult position and certainly left us difficult with, not with a club because I'm, you know, I've still still got relationship with Mr. Marinagis in his sport and empires. But at the end a lot of it's desperation because they wanted to stay in the Premier League. And do I agree with it all, for me, I can understand it, but it could have been done in a different way, which would have had a different output and probably had a different result. But I think knowing what I knew in that short period of time, there was a lot of letters going back and forth and nothing seemed to be.
- [39:02]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Working, you know, well, Rory, just, just very quickly on. On this idea of conspiracy and what can be drummed up, especially around referees and fans. You know, you recently did a podcast with Andy Mitten talking about Turkish football and the way in which conspiracy has impacted the nature of refereeing. How dangerous a president could that possibly set? In many respects, I think it's really.
- [39:24]
Rory Smith
Dangerous because the like I say, the appearance of integrity is just as important as the fact of it like that it's natural for fans to believe that referees are kind of biased against them. It's not ideal. It's very rarely true. It might occasionally be true, but I suspect it's not. But it's probably unavoidable. The moment you have institutions, this is what Andy and I talked about. The moment you have institutions and executives calling conspiracy, I think you're getting into really dangerous territory. And I do wonder with the Forest tweet example, I suspect, and I don't want to stereotype anybody, I suspect that was a little bit of Greek football culture coming into England and it was our first kind of exposure to that. And Mark will have experienced this in Greece firsthand, that paranoia that pervades Greek football, where they are all convinced. Pauk and Ike and Panathon, Akross and Olympiacross, they are all Convinced that everybody else has been bought. That is their abiding belief. And it's the same in certainty, which Andy and I discussed. You see it with Real Madrid. Real Madrid's.
- [40:23]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Well, Real Madrid very prominent right now.
- [40:25]
Rory Smith
Going through the future. I mean, obviously there's the Nudrera case around Barcelona, which is which, again, the optics are bad. Barcelona say the money they were paying to a leading referee was perfectly innocent. And I'm sure it was. I'm sure that it's just, you know, advice. It doesn't help, though, but it's really not very helpful. And it's the same. You see this with Liverpool fans bring this up a lot. And it's. Again, it's something that I think is completely innocent, but the look of it is bad. And that's the referees going to. I think Michael Oliver was one of them, going to Abu Dhabi a few years ago and doing games on, effectively being paid for their work by the owners of a Premier League team, or that's the allegation. Again, completely innocent, but the luck is bad. And that is the one thing that I think has become lost on both sides a little bit, is that you need to maintain the appearance of integrity. And if you don't, then you have a real issue because, you know, we currently have Real Madrid who have embarked in Spain on the least likely case of victimhood. You can imagine that Real Madrid are the victims of an institutional conspiracy that.
- [41:23]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Is the tiniest violin ever.
- [41:24]
Mark Clattenberg
Yeah.
- [41:24]
Rory Smith
But given that Real Madrid are the institution, you know, that is tricky. But because of what's happened with Barcelona and Negrera, it's really hard to laugh at it because you can see exactly why they've claimed it. And I think that once you go down that transpiratorial thinking line, what you end up with, the natural endpoint of that is that people start finding ways of saying that result is not legitimate. And if fans don't believe the results are legitimate or that the lead table has its integrity, then football, which for all of us is an optional activity, starts to lose its point.
- [41:56]
Mark Clattenberg
Yeah, but the thing. What I find is, because I've had. I'm doing some work for in Turkey at the moment, watching Fenerbache and Galatasaray matches till the end of the season. But also being in Greece, Egypt, what the difference is compared to England is England's. The federation is completely separated between a business and the Premier League's business is owned by each club to have an equal share. So there's an equal share for the. For the Premier League teams so they actually own their own competition. That doesn't happen anywhere else. So why you get the conspiracy theories is there's complete controls within the federations by every four years could be one club's official. For example, in Greece, when I was inside, there was a complete change from an example, Pauk, he was replaced with Ike. Now it's back to Pauk. It happens in Egypt. When I was in Egypt, it was Zamalik controlled. So Al Ahli think everything is going to. To Zamalik. And the referees are put under pressure to give things for and against. And they want certain referees appointed, which I saw in Egypt. And that's why I left that they were trying to control who was refereeing which matches, which for me, the best referees should be the ones that are performing the best. But there was big pressures put. So what you've got to understand and what people don't understand is these are because of the federations being created by members of clubs. So they think that they're getting. If they don't win the championship or they don't get favorable refereeing decisions, they believe there's a. There is a conspiracy behind it because of the control within. Within their football. But in England that doesn't happen. It's completely independent. PGM well, referees are completely autonomy and this what should help problem is now how many English owners is in the Premier League? There's not many. So when you have certain cultures come in, everybody has different conspiracies and it creates this pot at the moment where there's more and more foreign buyers have come in who, you know, they can't afford their product to be outside of the Premier League. You know, the Americans certainly don't understand relegation, for example, they would rather have their team staying in the Premier League because they wanted to make as much money as a camera. More and more conspiracies are coming up because of the different owners that are coming in. And it just, you know, it creates this. But England, I don't think it's an issue. It's just created from what they see certainly coming from the outside.
- [44:28]
Rory Smith
But what's astonishing about what you say about Greece and Egypt and the allegation in Turkey is the same that Diala feel that Fenerbahce get all the decisions and Fenerbahce feel that Deletasso get all the decisions. And Trabzon Sport, I think they both get all the decisions. But that's Talciopoli. That's what brought down Juventus, that Luciano Moggi in 2000 well for a long time, but it was found out in 2006 was influencing which referees got which games. And he did it by having this kind of nexus of power. And if you annoyed Juventus, then maybe you'd be fine. You know, suddenly you're finding you were meant to be doing the Milan derby, but now you're doing, you know, Palermo against Palmer or whatever. That was how Modu ran his empire and tilted things towards Juve, and it ended up with three clubs being relegated because it clearly affected the integrity of the competition.
- [45:14]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Right, next we'll look at one of the season's biggest talking points around Premier League refereeing.
- [45:21]
Mark Clattenberg
You're listening to the Athletes Athletic FC podcast with IO Accumulere. This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. It's tax season and we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's one you need to $16.5 billion. That's how much the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud last year. Now here's a good number. 100 million. That's how many data points Lifelock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it. Guaranteed. Save up to 40% your first year@lifelocked.com podcast terms apply. What's my subscription to the New York.
- [45:57]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Times have me doing this week? Preparing a strawberry pretzel pie solving spelling bee with no hints, Planning a trip to one of the 52 best places to go, getting to the bottom of the big pants trend, and I'm finally replacing my vacuum with a recommendation I can trust. What will your subscription to the Times have you do? Why not find out with our best offer? Go to nytimes.com subscribe.
- [46:25]
Mark Clattenberg
What up y'all?
- [46:26]
Rory Smith
Zena Kada here with a huge announcement. We're dropping a new show, no off.
- [46:31]
Mark Clattenberg
Season, the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Same place, same time, but we're bringing the heat with some brand new energy. Join myself, Ben Shins, as we give you an inside look at the game.
- [46:42]
Rory Smith
With candid conversations, in depth analysis and taking on the hottest topics around women's basketball. Plus, we're bringing in the biggest names in the game to weigh in on all the action.
- [46:52]
Mark Clattenberg
So mark your calendars because no offseason.
- [46:55]
Rory Smith
The Athletic Women's Basketball show is launching.
- [46:57]
Mark Clattenberg
Monday, March 17th with fresh episodes every Tuesday and Friday. You can find us on Apple, Spotify, YouTube or wherever whenever you get your podcasts. This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Agamolera.
- [47:14]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Mark away from your experiences this season. Referee David Coot has been banned actually from officiating in UEFA competitions for 16 months after being accused of violating conduct rules and bringing the sport into disrepute. The suspension followed the release of a video where Kute made offensive remarks about ex Liverpool manager Jurgen Klopp, as well as another video showing him allegedly using drugs. UEFA launched an investigation and Coot's contract was terminated by the PGMOL in December. Firstly, start with you, Mark. You know, what were your initial reactions when you saw the news broke of David Coutts's ban?
- [47:51]
Mark Clattenberg
Being honest, I wasn't bothered because I'm not really interested in refereeing anymore. But as a person, I didn't really know David that well because he was coming through the Football League when I was about to quit. I think he was in one season when I left, so I didn't really know him as a person. I know looking at his career, he was doing quite well as a Var in, in UEFA. He was trusted in the Euro championships as a. As an assistant Var. So he was respected. I think he was more respected as a Var certainly than he was as a referee and the two different skill sets. Of course, what's interesting was a couple of things here is I used to get criticized because I wouldn't want to speak when I was a referee. Now it's clear you don't really want to speak because everything you say can certainly have an impact later in your refereeing career. Because what he did with Jurgen Klopp, for example, that could happen. You could talk about players, people say who's the worst coaches, who's the best coach, have these discussions with your friends in a pub, for example. But one thing it doesn't happen is it doesn't go on a mobile phone. I think one of the naive things David did was, you know, maybe his partner, his friend or whatever, whoever he was, he shared that information on and he's used it against him later on in his. In his career, which I'm not sure that would have been a sackable offense. I think it was certainly a disciplinary offense of what he said about Jurgen Klopp and Liverpool Football Club. But it certainly wasn't a. I would hope that it wasn't a refereeing career ending moment, but certainly the video isn't a great looking from an outside. If my, my child wants to be a referee, for example, it's not a great image that we've got a person who is on UEFA duty doing this type of thing. You know, we talk about the pressures before. Has he done it for the pressures? Is the. There's Something underlying because known you do get certainly tested when you do FIFA tournaments for your blood and different things. I don't know if it would ever be pulled up. But you know, there was talk years ago that referees should be drug tested. They're not because there's no performance enhancing thing that a referee can gain from taking drugs. So play, yes, but certainly not a referee. But you know, you don't know what's going on in his personal life. But he had opportunities to seek some support and I think people would have acknowledged it if he'd come out and said look, I've got a problem.
- [50:18]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Is there support available for referees 100 the hardships of this kind of stuff.
- [50:22]
Mark Clattenberg
Yeah, Pigeon will have a lot of people that would even source people, you know, Pigeon well are duty bound to protect you. And you know, there was times when I asked not to have a match for a couple of weeks because there's something going on in my life, you know, and they wouldn't give you a match. There's plenty of opportunities for. For David to raise his issues and what was going on. But he left it too late because once it came into the public domain and hadn't done anything about it once that came out, it's really difficult for him to have his refereeing Korean and I'm sure even now Pigeon will be supporting him because it's a really difficult situation. I know when I got sacked in 2008 or something that, you know, I was alleged to have done cleared my name. But it was a really low part of your life because you don't know what's going to happen. You know, you're doing something that you love and all of a sudden it's taken away. But he was so naive and sending them videos on to people because going back to when I first started, we didn't have mobile phones. Now everything's recorded so you should have been aware of that. And it's sad, sad situation. But you know, one that I don't really know Dave Coot that well so I don't feel anything and I'm an ex referee. But it's a sad situation, one that could have been avoided.
- [51:29]
Rory Smith
The real sadness to me was the fact but as came out afterwards in, in what I would say, you know, uneasy circumstances in an inter with the newspaper that had published a lot of the videos is the fact that David Coote in 2024, I suppose 2025 now clearly felt that he still had to conceal the fact he was gay. Which is you'd really like to think As a society we should really have moved on from by now. This is not a thing anymore. But he felt, he felt that whether it's the environment of football or whether it's his family circumstances, I don't know. But the fact that was clearly or his interpretation of it is that that was kind of what lay at the root of a lot of the pressure. The stress he was under, I think is incredibly sad as like the video, allowing that stuff to be recorded is incredibly naive. And it's not just a referee who should kind of think that anyone literally, if you are listening to this and have a job, don't record stuff that can cost you your job. That's common sense. But there is a sadness to seeing someone who's clearly, as you know, Mark's talked about kind of the work that he went through to get to where he was. And David Coote will have done something similar. He'll have devoted a lot of his life to refereeing. It's clearly a thing that he loves, loved. I referee occasionally for my sons under 17 and after my first game was abused by my father in law. So like there's a lot of, there's a lot of, there's a lot of pressure you're under. You've got to go through a lot as a referee.
- [52:46]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Got a competitive household you live in, what's going on?
- [52:49]
Rory Smith
It was a penalty, but my son, my son made too much of it and I decided not to give it to teach him a lesson. But you know, David Troop will have worked incredibly hard to get where he was. And this is what I mean about treating referees as humans. First and foremost is that he'll have made a lot of sacrifices to build his career to the point where he was refereeing, assistant refereeing, acting as var in the Premier League. That is as high in your career as most of us will ever get. And to lose it all, I think on a human level is really sad.
- [53:14]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah. Mark, just very quickly, you know, we talk about conspiracies and all that and integrity of the game and the integrity fans have towards or trying to have towards referees. I mean, this can't help those kind of situations. Surely all those extra questions that fans are wondering about a referee's allegiances or how they feel, feel about certain players, especially with the Jurgen Klopp comment.
- [53:35]
Mark Clattenberg
Listen, it's a difficult one because I've made jokes in the past, you know, like when you're after dinner speaking, because one thing that people label referees are the boring. And it's hard because you're not boring. You know, I got labeled boring for years. And when I was a referee, I wouldn't go out, I wouldn't go on holiday with my friends because I didn't want to put myself in the environment. But then I had some really good friends. If I did go, I remember putting it on a trip to Dubai. And my friends would completely look after us. They would protect us. They wouldn't let us like, even get photos, but people would get upset about it. But they were there just to protect. And I. I don't think David had that network around them that protected him like I was. And I can come out and say it now because I don't. I'm not going back into refereeing and I certainly wouldn't want to go into pgm. Well, so therefore I can say certain things, but, you know, it's not helpful. Yeah, we've all got opinions about Jurgen Klopp, and I'm sure Jurgen Klopp has opinions about me. But Jurgen Klopp wouldn't say, I don't like Mark Clattenberg to the media, but he'd probably say to me, his friend down the pub, there's a difference, you know. And I think we've got to find a balance sometimes in life where we're allowed an opinion, we're allowed to say things without his integrity being called into question. That wouldn't be the case because, you know, people say I'm a Man United fan. And I say the same thing. Them, are you stupid? And they're like, well, why? Why?
- [54:51]
Rory Smith
Yeah, to be honest, Martin, Marty, it's a real mystery who you support. It's a real myst.
- [54:55]
Mark Clattenberg
No, but Rory, this is the. This is the stupid thing is, even though I speak in a strange accent and I'm a great accent after the Sunday. But. But I go to them, are you really stupid? And they go, well, what do you mean? I says, you tell me which referee in the world has ever give three penalties against Man United for Liverpool. Are you stupid? If I'm a Man United fan, do you think I'm going to give your arch enemies three freaking penalties at Old Trafford? Clueless.
- [55:21]
Rory Smith
The clueless.
- [55:22]
Mark Clattenberg
But that's the problem is we. Everybody's upset. David could didn't make them decisions based on he didn't like Jurgen Klopp. I didn't like Jurgen Klopp when he was Dortmund manager. I had a big fight when he was at Dortmund that didn't say when he came to Liverpool, I hated him. I respected him as a coach. I respect him as a person I might not like him but that doesn't say me and I had anything against Liverpool. It's crazy to think this David could have an issue. He didn't have anything to do with care about Liverpool. He just got upset about the way Jurgen Klopp is with David Kud and he has the right because I've had run ins with coaches and they say things in the heat of the battle and you think I don't like him. It's just human reaction but you don't go out and personally go. And I'm going to give it a penalty against Liverpool today because I don't like Jurgen Klopp. I think we're crazy if we think like this.
- [56:07]
Rory Smith
This is just stupidity maybe the thing is we should, we should all try and remember that everyone involved in this activity is a grown up. That might be the better way of looking at it. Yeah.
- [56:15]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah for sure. All right, let's end it here because we've talked about your career but the real reason we've got you on here is because obviously you're the, the referee. And one of the entertainment shows on TV right now, Gladiators, our American fans will hear would have heard about American Gladiators. Same one here in the UK but there was a guy on, on the UK version called John Anderson, a Scottish referee and known for his legendary status. Now Mark, you have taken that legendary status. Have you talked to me about turning your back on football and heading into the world of entertainment? Right now it's one of the biggest shows on telly.
- [56:48]
Mark Clattenberg
No, it was a crazy thing because I remember but I watched it as a child so I was, I was hooked me. I loved the Gladiators when I was a child. So when they were talking about remaking I got a phone call and I was, I was abroad and they said oh no, we need to have an interview with you. We want a zoom call about being the head referee on Gladiators. And I thought, oh that would be.
- [57:05]
Rory Smith
Quite a cool thing.
- [57:06]
Mark Clattenberg
I've got a young family, I thought they would like that. And when I got the interview and they weren't really keen on us doing it because I thought I was too high profile and they felt that maybe I was too much for it. But I came across, well, I'm, you know, I'm a team player, you know, I try to keep it as what they want. It's a game show, it's a family show and you know, we're trying to entertain as well as well as it, it is Quite competitive as well. Certainly the second series, really competitive. So I've had to put the contenders and the Gladiators in check a few times. But it was a rule that when you tell your daughter that I'm going to be referee at Gladiators, it's cool for her because she goes to school, all her friends are watching it and she's like my dad's gladiator referee. But it's so to take over from John Anderson who everybody knew was so iconic and for me being allowed to do that, my part of me career because like I said, I don't want to go back into referee and I'm finished now. I'm 50 years old. I'm past all of that. I want to try new things and you know, being in telly, being on the telly is not easy because you know, you get one chance. My voice went in the second series and that sounded like Joe Pasquale for a Mormon. Contenders ready? Gladiators ready.
- [58:22]
Rory Smith
I think the referee might have had a good New Year's Eve, don't you?
- [58:25]
Mark Clattenberg
One thing I missed in life and I'm guilty of it as well, really guilty of it. I don't spend enough time really quality time. I did it the weekend watching the match with my daughter and I don't really. I didn't really bond for a while and I feel feel we're getting that back with Gladiators where families are sitting down again in front of the television on a Saturday night. And I think that's what we all remember and I think we lost that for a long period of our lives where, you know, we didn't really get together again and there wasn't really much on the TV that we all could get together and watch. You know, for me it certainly helped me because it gave me a chance to bond with again, you know, with my, my young family and we watch something together. We're now sharing this, you know, know programs together that would both watch together and I think me being a part of it is quite a cool thing for her. I can wear me black and white shirt which is great because being a Newcastle fan, that's another thing.
- [59:14]
Rory Smith
Well, we, we watch it. I've got. My kids are seven and three and we watch it is now like from the first series. It is a family institution and my son who's a football fan will occasionally be interested if I say I've spoken to. To someone in football but Mark Clattenberg, the referee from Gladiators is this. That is how he engages with you but it is, you're right, it's that family entertainment. My wife watches it for Phantom, so does my way. But the question I've been. Been burning to ask you, Mark, and this might just be my ear, might be because I'm the same as you. I remember watching the, you know, the original series when I was a kid and that John Anderson. 3, 2, 1. Are you doing a Scottish accent?
- [59:51]
Mark Clattenberg
When you say it, everybody asks, is that right? Remember, I'm only 20 miles from the border.
- [59:55]
Rory Smith
That's right.
- [59:55]
Mark Clattenberg
So you've got to remember. So I'm not that far to the border, so. But it's weird because even, like I know Jody accents are quite strong. So I have tried, I do try and change my accent, of course, when I'm. When I'm trying to talk and stuff, because people certainly won't understand at all. But it does come across. But I don't mean it to come across like a Scottish accent. It may be the way I go.
- [60:16]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Three, two.
- [60:17]
Mark Clattenberg
It sounds Scottish.
- [60:18]
Ayo Akimwaleere
You just wanted him to do it, didn't you, Rory?
- [60:20]
Mark Clattenberg
I see you.
- [60:22]
Rory Smith
But that's all I needed.
- [60:23]
Mark Clattenberg
What I. What I like about it, the comments, you know, you still get abused now. I still get abused if I make wrong decisions, however, ever on Gladiators.
- [60:31]
Rory Smith
That is amazing.
- [60:34]
Mark Clattenberg
Some of the stuff I get. But what's nice about it is there's a lot more positive than I was as a referee. And what I think is because people are so happy again, nobody's happy in football. For some reason, even if you win, you're still upset. We're Gladiators. People are just happy again. And I think it sees me in a different world where, you know, I was Mark Clattenberg, the referee who used to want to spoil football matches. That's what everybody used to think. Now I'm trying to be part of an entertainment show and I feel like that me raw, I'm getting more confident in the role. Of course, when I first started the role, I didn't know what to do, but I'm growing into the role now and not replacing John Anderson. But I certainly want to be as close to him because to lose that iconic thing would be quite. It would. It wouldn't be the same. And I think, you know, even I'll try a bit more Scottish in the next series.
- [61:18]
Rory Smith
If we do the next series, just go full. Wear a kill. Yeah, just go full on.
- [61:23]
Mark Clattenberg
Full on stuff.
- [61:24]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Brilliant. Very quickly, you also refereed the, the YouTuber game at Wembley and, you know, it's really interesting. We're in a really fascinating moment with football right now, Mark, and I'd just love your opinion on this because people are talking about, you know, these youtubers selling out stadiums and all this kind of stuff, and people are saying, well, what about the real football? In my eyes, both things coexist, right? They're both entertainment in essence, but one is serving an audience and the other serving a very different audience. Do you see this as a thing of the future where influencers now will be taken center stage in some of the greatest sporting spaces around?
- [62:00]
Mark Clattenberg
Well, let's first and foremost raise 4.7 million for charities. And I think that's the most important thing that charities are gaining in difficult times. They're gaining through entertainment. And I think while people spend, well, I think it was two and a half hours to sell 90,000 tickets, the product works. The actual football itself was quite enjoyable because it's raw, they can't play, and it's fun.
- [62:22]
Rory Smith
It did really watching it, it did make you realize how good actual footballers are.
- [62:25]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Footballers incredible.
- [62:27]
Mark Clattenberg
Like, I don't know what they were going to do next, but what I. What I find was. And that's why I. I enjoy refereeing these matches because I can just be myself. I'm not under guidance. I don't care. For example, I missed a penalty on that. In the first few minutes, a player decides he wants to handle. Handle the ball on the line. I can't say there's loads of players and the player actually tells us, mark, I've handled it and I was laughing, but I haven't given it. And then they show it on the big screen after 10 seconds. So I watch it. We're all watching it on the big screen. I went like this, so. But everybody laughed. Everybody enjoyed the entertainment because it was an. We've got to remember that it's entertainment, but it's raising money for important causes. That's the most important thing for me, that I would love to see this more often. Soccer Aid does it every year. And while it's earning big money for charities, I think it's a way forward and entertainment. And you know what? The people's face is coming out of that stadium. We're smiling, laughing, enjoying it. And it's something that we should embrace more and enjoy more.
- [63:26]
Ayo Akimwaleere
All right, let's end it there. Mark, thank you so much for your time. Honestly, it's been a joy to have you on and also enjoy the sunshine in Spain. And Rory, as always, appreciate your time, sir. That is it from us. Thank you so much for listening you've.
- [63:38]
Mark Clattenberg
Been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Clark, Mike Stavrou and Jay Beale. The executive producer was Aidy Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.