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- [00:02]
A
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- [00:36]
B
Are you really buying a car online on Autotrader right now? Really?
- [00:40]
A
At a playground? Yeah, really.
- [00:42]
B
Look at these listings from dealers.
- [00:44]
C
Wow, your search can really get that specific.
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B
Really? And you just put in your info and boom.
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D
Cars in your budget.
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E
Mom needs a second.
- [00:51]
B
Honey, you can really have it delivered. Really? Or I can pick it up at the dealership.
- [00:56]
D
One sec, sweetie, Mommy's buying a car.
- [00:59]
A
I think your kid is walking up the slide, Kyle.
- [01:02]
D
Again? Really?
- [01:03]
B
Autotrader, Buy your car online? Really?
- [01:06]
A
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- [01:38]
C
The Athletic fc Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimwalere. Jose Mourinho could be set for a dramatic return back to the Bernabeu. So is the special one really the man to save Real Madrid? All right, in with us today, we've got Tom Williams in the studio, we've got Dermot Corrigan all the way out in Spain. And later on we'll be joined by Seb Stafford Bloh, who will be Talking about that PSG vs Bayern Munich match which ended 5, 4. Do not adjust your headphones, ladies and gentlemen, it is 2026. There's a potential that Jose Mourinho will will be going back to Real Madrid after 13 years away from the club. Look, Dermot, Real Madrid loves drama, to say the least. What is going on here?
- [02:28]
B
Yeah, it is incredible. Jose Mourinho had an unbelievably intense, unbelievably divisive spell as Real Madrid manager a long time ago, ever since he left the club in 2013. There's always been still a connection. He fell out with most people at the Bernabeu during that spell, but he never fell out with Florentino Perez, who was the main decision maker at Real Madrid back then and is still the main decision maker maker at Real Madrid now. And Florentino Perez is in a tight spot. He signed Alonso last summer. The idea was to change, to become a bit more modern, to bring in a new coach with the most, the latest tactical ideas that just didn't work out well with the dressing room at all. They went for Arboloa in January, a guy from inside the club who knew how the club works internally but didn't have much experience, didn't have any experience coaching at the top level. That hasn't worked out either. Florino's had a look around maybe at what, what might be possible, and he's landed on Mourinho, which is a, it's a bombshell. It's really, it's just difficult to, to explain really, or just how, how deeply he's into the Real Madrid psyche. What the, the lasting impression he made on the club the last time around. And even just the idea of him coming back is, is mind boggling. It's exciting in a way. You know, there'll be headlines, there'll be lots of us, lots of things to talk about if it does happen. I'm not looking forward to it. I, I have to be honest, Tom,
- [03:47]
C
you're often the voice of reason and calm. I don't know if there is any reason or calm based on this potential decision, but I mean, look, Madrid currently are set to end a second consecutive campaign without winning a major trophy. Since March, the international break, they've won one game in six across all competitions. Not great. They're also 11 points behind Barca in La Liga. They're currently out the Champions League as well. Now, despite all that, and I guess this might be a decision based on trying to bring back some sort of DNA back to Madrid. Does this one surprise you?
- [04:19]
E
I mean, yes, because Jose Mourinho has, has felt like yesterday's man in coaching terms for a long time. But also no, because this is the kind of thing that Mourinho is capable of doing. You kind of feel like there are certain clubs for whom there is this. So kind of in case of emergency, break glass and call Mourinho. Chelsea have done it in the past. Madrid are obviously thinking very seriously about it now. And you go back to Xabi Alonso's arrival and I think the, the hope was that he would instill some of the swashbuckling football that he brought to Bayer Leverkusen at the Bernabeu and obviously failed. And we have seen that periodically at Madrid that when more dogmatic coaches come in and try and impose a certain way of playing on this ego packed Madrid changing room, they really struggle. You look at the only coaches in the last sort of 15 or 20 years who've been able to bring sustained success to Madrid and they've kind of been vibes guys. Zinedine Zidane, Carlo Ancelotti, a basic defensive structure, freedom for the attacking players, no real tactical dogmatism and very shrewd management of the egos in the changing room. Mourinho is also a vibes guy. The chief difference is that he's an evil vibes guy, but it's a similar kind of approach. And I think fundamentally he's someone who understands, you know, again, not to lapse into gets the club cliches, but he understands Madrid on a very deep level. That very peculiar culture, that ability to look into the camera and with a straight face and say, we are Real Madrid and we are being persecuted again, just as we have been throughout our history. Mourinho will do that. He has that kind of, that corporate side to him and he's also an incredible kind of, you know, windshield for everyone else at the club. When Mourinho is in the dugout, that's frequently all that people talk about. There are so many kind of psychodramas at Madrid, just constantly. And Mourinho is a way of kind of deflecting attention away from that. So, I mean, a massively retrograde step if it does end up, you know, going through and in footballing terms, extremely difficult to make an argument for it.
- [06:55]
B
But.
- [06:56]
E
But when you look at the culture of the club and the kind of things that Mourinho can bring to a role like that, you do start to understand it a little bit.
- [07:05]
C
Yeah, I mean, look, we talk about big, big egos and Mourinho being one of them. Actually, Dermot, look, let's look back at his spell at Real Madrid 2010-2013. There were trophies, no Champions League, funny enough, and there were some issues with Mourinho and those players.
- [07:22]
B
Yeah, for sure. When Mourinho came into Madrid in 2010, he came in saying, everything's got to change here. This is a club that stuck in the past, that does things an old way, and I'm the guy who's going to shake everything up and Turn this loser club, he almost said, into a winning club. They hadn't won the Champions League at that stage for over a decade. They hadn't won anything for two seasons. And Perez, unusually for him, gave Mourinho the power to go and shake things up. Like Mourinho straight away was, was fighting with the journalists, fighting with referees, opposition coaches. He decided that Casillas, and there's still some people around Madrid who think he was right. But he decided that Casillas was a bad influence in the dressing room. Mourinho wanted to go to war with Barcelona. This was Pep Guardiola's Barcelona that were, you know, the neutrals favorites, were winning everything, playing beautiful football, had Xavi and Iniesta and all these guys from the Spain national team who were Cassis teammates with the Spain national team. And Mourinho said, we have to go, we actually have to go to war with these guys. He, he poked Tito Villanova in the eye. Spanish Super Copa, the scuffle on, on the sideline. He had everybody so revved up. Cassilla said, like, we calm this down a bit. And Marino went to, to war against him. Other people over time, then other people in the dressing room, Ramos was on Casillas side, but over time, even people who were really close to Ronaldo, like Pepe and Cristiano Ronaldo, in the end couldn't, Couldn't handle the, the pressure, the incessant, stormy atmosphere that was just around the club the whole time. And there are still people at Madrid who say that they did, they fell in the Champions League every year they reached the semifinals. There was those, you know, Messi did them one year, Bayern did them one year. Lewandowski did them, did them in his final year with those four goals. But the following year, Mourinho left, Anchoti came in, they won the Champions League then. And a lot of people said that it was down to the. This supposed winning mentality that Mourinho installed at the Bernabeu, that he had to root out these bad eggs, he had to change the culture around the club. And it was that process that was painful, but was required in order for Anchorage to win the Champions League, for Sedan to win three Champions Leagues in a row. There are some people, Madrid, who just don't buy that, that narrative at all. And I'm skeptical about it. But Arbalo believes it and Florentino believes it, I'm pretty sure. And Mourinho, he definitely believes it. And we saw before the Benfica games in, in February, Mourinho was talking about how much he still loves the club, how he, he has these stories that he, you know, he always has about how people come up to him in an airport and say, you know, I'm a Real Madrid fan, you know, you changed my life, I love you, and whatever. And he still says he has that, that close connection to what he says is the Real Madrid. He talked a lot about Anti Madridistas and Casillas is in, in that group of people who fake Madrid fans are not really Madrid fans. And he believes that he was a Real Madrid fan. But then, you know, we see what. I guess we'll get into what happened in the Benfica games, But he was 100% Benfica then against Madrid. Perez won't, won't have minded that. He'll just see a guy, as Tom says there, who, if he's on your side, he's 100% on your side. He'll create his own reality to an extent, or try to create his own reality and force everybody else to, to accept it, which is, you know, Florentino Perez thing. And it's something that has worked at Madrid. You know, they, they say, we're Real Madrid, we always win the Champions League. And you know, logic suggests that they shouldn't, but they. Hasn't happened this year, but in previous years they've gone, come back with these incredible remontades because of that instinct in the club. Didn't have those Ramanties under Mourinho, should be said they got nervous and blew it a couple of times. But yeah, it's that essence, that idea of, of just sticking together and being Real Madrid and creating your reality and Fantina wants to do it. And if he does go back to Mourinho, I guess that's what he's going to do.
- [10:48]
A
Yeah.
- [10:49]
C
If this was to happen. Derma, is everyone in the club behind this potential move?
- [10:54]
B
No, there are some people in the club who would like to modernize things, and sometimes Florentino Perez leans into that to an extent. There are executives of the club who would prefer to be more like a typical European super club, to have things more organized behind the scenes, to have a sporting director, for example, to have everything aligned at the club together, to not need to say so from the very top for every small decision that they have to make. There was a people in the club who were very happy that Alonso came in last year. And Alonso came in and, you know, he was trying to shake up the medical team, for instance, to change how things were done, to modernize it. To professionalize it to an extent. But, you know, there were other people in the club who rebelled against that, first of all, the players, because they didn't. Didn't like what they were being asked to do, or at least some of the players, not all of the players, I would say. But yeah, that, that idea. There are. There's a constituency within Madrid who would like to move forward, but there's that Rams up against Martin Perez who in the end makes the decisions. And it was his decision ultimately to sign Alonso, even though he was given advice. I think this is 100% a Florentino decision, if it is to go back to Mourinho.
- [12:00]
C
I just want to talk about his current stock. Now, Tom, we've spoken about the fallouts with players in the past, but, you know, this is not disregarding what he's done at Porto, what he's done at Chelsea, what he's done at Real Madrid, what he's done at Inter Milan. We know what Joe San Marinho represents, but I'm just talking about current stock right now, because the last two teams he's coached, fenerbahce, Benfica, are clubs you probably classes outside of the big, big clubs in Europe. It's been more than 10 years since he won a domestic league title, and that was with Chelsea in 2015. Now you think about, obviously, he's won the Europa League with Manchester United in 2017 and furthermore ends up winning the Conference League with Roma in 2022. But, you know, I think you alluded to it at the top when we started chatting tomorrow. This isn't a guy that currently is on the top stock of coaches in world football.
- [12:52]
E
No. And he's not really part of the conversation. This is the first time that Mourinho has been linked to one of the biggest jobs in world football for at least kind of seven or eight years. And it used to be the case that the Mourinho playbook was very well established. He'd come in like a complete whirlwind. Season one, he'd kind of, you know, transform things. Season two, the team would peak. That's when you would get most of the success, most of the trophies. And then things would start to fall away in season three, and, you know, he'd be off out through the door. And what has happened quite a lot in more recent times is that entire sort of trajectory has just been sped up. You run through that entire cycle in the space of the first season, so you get a big kind of media impact when he arrives, you might get some kind of impact on the pitch. There might be some signs of improvement, but by the end of the very first season, the players are sick and tired of him. The fans, you know, aren't sure anymore. The media have had enough, and it just feels that he's been pursuing this cycle of diminishing returns. And, you know, you look at the, the names of the clubs that he's coached in recent years, and he has been falling further and further away from the. The European football firmament. And it's. It's only because he has this relationship with Madrid and specifically this relationship with Florentino Perez, that he's even in that conversation. But again, if you were to judge him purely on his coaching merits and the kind of success that he has or hasn't enjoyed over the last six, seven years, it's very difficult to make a case for him being the right man for a club of this stature.
- [14:43]
C
Yeah, I do think, though, Dermot, I mean, this is me looking on a more positive side. When Carlo Ancelotti came to Real Madrid, where was he before he was at Everton? No one saw that move coming. Right. He had such great success with Real Madrid whilst he was at the helm. But back to Mourinho, the Tottenham Hotspur adventure didn't end that well. The Roma adventure was kind of okay. The Fernobachi one was only a year. And then his Benfica, they're looking unbeaten for this season. They've been quite a few draws there, but they're potentially not looking like they're going to win the league for the
- [15:17]
B
last decade or so. When you've heard about radio, you know, I'm here, here in Spain, and when you hear about him, it's because something has blown up spectacularly. It's for his antics rather than for anything that his, his team has actually done. He's become like, he's great for clubs, maybe in a firefighting role, maybe made sense to go back or to go, yeah, go back to Benfica, maybe Fenerbahce. See, see the, the value in bringing in a big name, drawing attention to the club, all those types of things. But I don't think seriously, within football, he's been seen as a guy who, who understands the modern game, who has kept up to date with, with all of the, the latest developments in coaching, in, in preparation. He was like, you know, two decades ago, he was that guy. He was the guy who came in when he had such success at Porto, who had, you know, was doing things differently, had new ideas, was. I don't know, I was going to say breath of fresh air. That's probably pushing it, pushing it a bit far. But he was like the new modern, hip, trendy guy, like. But that, that's, that's a long time ago now. That's before some of these Real Madrid players were even born that, that he might be coming in to, to coach now. More recently it's been because of, yeah, his antics in the press room, maybe getting involved in controversies which I guess we'll get into. Benfica as well as a kind of dinosaur in different ways, tactically and also maybe socially, culturally. A guy who didn't understand that the modern game and maybe doesn't understand the modern world. I'm sure he would, he would kick back against that and he's welcome to that and his defenders will kick back against it as well. But from here, whenever he's come up recently, it's been as a, as a kind of a dinosaur, somebody who, we moved on from that. As Tom said, Remedid are only the only real big super club that would even consider appointing Mourinho at the minute. And it's not because of his tactical acumen that they're going back to him.
- [17:03]
A
This is the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Accemolere. This episode of the Athletic FC podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. May is mental Health Awareness Month, and it's a reminder that whatever you're going through, you don't have to go through it alone. Because life is a journey. Some days you feel good, but others you can feel overwhelmed. Whatever's keeping you up at night, it's easy to feel like you have to figure it out all on your own. But the truth is, no one has all the answers and no journey should be made by yourself. Having someone with you to listen, to understand and to support you can make all the difference. So this May, why not check in with yourself and understand where you are right now and acknowledge that that if you're feeling stuck, anxious or unsure, it's okay to not be okay. BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy providers, serving over 6 million people globally. Just fill in a short questionnaire and they'll pair you up with a therapist based on your preferences, needs and goals. And if you aren't happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time, safe in the knowledge that BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US you don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have someone with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com fcpodcast that's better he lp.com fcpodcast. This is an advert for Mint Mobile. Now if you're anything like me, you'll like keeping your money right where you can see it. Unfortunately, traditional big wireless carriers also seem to like keeping your money. So if you're overpaying for wireless and fed up with sky high wireless bills, bogus fees and free perks that actually cost more in the long run, it's time you switched to Mint Mobile. Mint Mobile is here to rescue you with premium wireless plans starting at just 15 bucks a month. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talking text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can bring your own phone and number with you. Activate an ESIM in minutes and you'll start saving immediately. No long term contracts, no hassle. What's not to love? I switched at the start of the year and I'm saving money every month and I can spend that on my kids and I get really fantastic all round wireless service on top. So if you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop plans@mintmobile.com athleticfc that's mintmobile.com athleticfc upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5GB plan required agreement equivalent to 15 per month new customer offer for first 3 months only then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. CMINT Mobile for details Lately I've been more intentional about what I wear day to day. Leaning into pieces that feel easy, comfortable and still put together just makes getting dressed simpler. And Quince has been my go to. The fabrics feel elevated, the fits are clean and everything just works without needing to overthink it. Quince has all the wardrobe staples for spring. Think 100% European linen shorts and shirts from $34. Lightweight, breathable and comfortable but still look put together and clean. 100% Pima cotton tees with a softness that has to be felt. Their pants also hit that same balance. Relaxed and comfortable but still polished enough to wear pretty much anytime. And everything is priced 50 to 80% less than you'd find at similar brands. Right now. I am loving the Comfort Stretch Traveler 5 Pocket Pant in dark charcoal. It's laid back and refined and good for the working day and the post work cocktail. And at just £49.90 and available in 10 different colors, I might just treat myself to another pair because I'm worth it. So refresh your everyday with luxury. You'll actually use head to quince.com athleticfc for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-E.com SL Athletic FC for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com Athletic FC.
- [21:00]
C
Yeah, well, let's talk about some of the controversies. Mainly a key element in this story is that obviously Vinicius Jr, what will he be thinking right now? Because in February Vinnie alleged that he was racially abused by Benfica's Gianluca Prestiani in a Champions League match. Prestiani denied the allegations and was eventually given a six match suspension by UEFA for homophobic rather than racist conduct. Now, after the match, Mourinho suggested Vini had incited the incident. Dermot, we spoke about this candidly on this podcast and it was a heavy topic to deal with, especially looking at the modern game. When you talk about a coach that's potentially out of touch. The comments about Eusebio, you know, one of our greatest players in this team was a black man. You know, it just seems a little misguided. Now you're potentially going back into a dressing room with a player that you potentially offended. It's a bit odd.
- [21:54]
B
Yeah. And one of the things that he said after that game was that, you know, why is it always Vinicius, you know, suggesting that it was something that Vinicius himself was doing that was the reason that Vinicius has been racially abused so many times in, in Spanish stadiums. It's over a dozen different places or different incidents that have happened over the years. You could argue, I guess, that in this situation that Mourinho could stick up for his own player, that it wasn't proven, especially at that time, it hadn't been proven. It was the night of the game, emotions are high and you know, sticking up with your own player and believing your own player is not, is not necessarily understandable in the situation. I think you can say, well, if you then broaden it out and start talking about Eusebio, as you say there, and talking about Vinicius in previous incidents. It gave me the impression anyway and I think it gave lots of people the impression that he wasn't taking it seriously. Vinicius camp have been quiet over the last couple of days. I can't say what they think about it. I can imagine that they will be very unhappy with the idea of Vini having to go to training on the first day of pre season next season. And you know, Tozi Mourinho, maybe they would have a conversation and. And, yeah, who knows? But I can only assume that Vinicius would not be very happy with this. It's been noticeable that Madrid have been very quiet as well. Last week when the Prestiani punishment came out, you could imagine a different world in which, you know, if they're going to back their players to the Hilton, it wasn't just Vinicius, it was Mbappe Tchouameni. Different people were very clear about the language that they had heard being used on the pitch. In other situations, Madrid have, you know, gone to war against different institutions if they feel that, you know, they're Vinicius himself. When he didn't win the Ballon d', Or, Madrid just boycotted the whole competition. In the past, Madrid have gone to war against UEFA over, for commercial reasons, for trying to organize football in a different way. That's been patched up recently. I think UEFA have won that particular battle. The Super League has gone away. But, yeah, zip out of Madrid to complain about the decision. No outrage, no support for Vinicius in the situation, which, you know, he's been quiet enough as well since. And I'm not blaming Vinicius for any of this at all. Like, if he doesn't have a reaction, he doesn't want to make it public. That's. That's obviously for. For him to do. It adds to the whole idea of Mourinho coming back. It adds another very difficult, very challenging aspect to the whole thing. I know the reason not to do it. You could argue, or I might argue, but Fantina Perez, if it's part of what he's been weighing up, it hasn't been that clear to us.
- [24:23]
C
Yeah, I mean, Tom, I don't know where to start with this one, because, yeah, it's not just Vinicius you're thinking about. You're thinking about Mbappe Romani, a lot of those other players that were involved in that situation. And you've got Jose Mourinho, who's been quite public about his views and what happened with the Prestiani situation. But you are now potentially going into a dressing room and we talk about the beef he's had with previous players. You're basically walking into another cauldron.
- [24:47]
E
It's not ideal. It's very far from ideal in that respect. But at the same time, this is the kind of thing that happens in football. Someone who has behaved in a certain way towards a club, who has riled their fan base, who has disrespected their players or whatever, then ends up being hired by that club, and you think, oh, well, this isn't gonna work. This is gonna be explosive. And yet just the fact of suddenly all being on the same team very frequently is enough for those tensions to dissipate. And I think one thing that Mourinho probably hasn't lost is his charisma in dealing with players, the kind of sparkle that he carries with him. I mean, he's clearly diminished as a coach in terms of his achievements. But I think as an individual, if you're, you know, a young footballer or even a more experienced footballer, he's still someone with a stature. I think that's part of the reason why he is so attractive to Florentino Perez, despite the diminishing returns of recent years. So, I suspect that, you know, perhaps there will be certainly on the side of certain players, a degree of reluctance to, you know, kind of forgive what Mourinho said in response to the. To the abuse that Vinicius received in that game against Benfica. If, of course, he does become Real Madrid head coach, I think the fact that he would be presented to them as their new coach means that there'd be a realization. We have to get on board with this guy. This is the new direction. And very frequently in football, things that at the time would seem completely inconceivable have a way of just kind of working themselves out because, well, this guy who has done something which previously seemed completely unforgivable is now on our side. He's now our leader, and we are just going to have to go along with him. So, I mean, it would. If, of course, if, if, if. If it does go ahead and he does become Real Madrid coach, it would be fascinating to witness those first exchanges with, you know, Vinicius in particular, but also, as you said, players like Kylian Mbappe or Elian Schouameni who were very outspoken about. About what happened. But, you know, there is a kind of. A very kind of hardy grain of cynicism that runs through every football club, and that is, we're all in it together. We're here to try and win, and all manner of things can be kind of forgotten, if not perhaps fully forgiven, you know, when something like this comes to pass.
- [27:33]
B
When Tom mentioned cynicism there, it just reminded me that Vinicius contract is up in just over. Well, yeah, I've got a mask over a year's time. Negotiations over extending that deal have gone on for a long time now. It's a couple of years They've been, they've been talking. Vinicius is looking for, for a big pay rise from Madrid. Madrid have been fighting back against that. A big problem for Xabi Alonso was that Vinicius decided he wasn't going to be able to renew. You know, Mario, our colleague here, broke the story that Vinicius wasn't going to renew his contract if, if Alonso was, was the coach. We'll have to see what happens now. There's a lot of money on the line as well, which is, it feels wrong kind of saying it, but you know, this is the reality of top level football. It's, it's a huge business and all the people involved have a lot of, a lot of money on the line. So it will be fascinating to see how that plays out. Apparently Vinicius camp are happy to wait until after the World cup to see what happens to maybe have the next stage of negotiations. Then he'll be 12 months out from his, the end of his contract at that stage and then he might have a better idea of who's going to be the next Real Madrid coach. Florentino doesn't seem if Mourinho is his first choice for the job. Doesn't seem too worried about how I will impact on those negotiations, but I would imagine it will have a, will have an impact.
- [28:48]
C
Yeah. Just before you go, Dama, are there any other names on the table potentially other than Mourinho, as we find out who might be the next head coach or manager of Real Madrid?
- [28:59]
B
Yeah, a lot of people around Madrid would love Zinedine Zidane to come back. We're all sure that Zinedine Zan would love to be the next French manager and there's an almost certain chance that that's going to happen after the World cup as well. Mauricio Pochettino is the most interesting name that that's come up. Fantino does like Pochettino. They have spoken to him before. He almost. If Pochettino hadn't renewed his deal at spurs, you know, going back about five years, he probably would have become the Real Madrid manager at that stage. But he's tied to the U.S. there's the world cup involved as well. And yeah, if not he's an impulsive guy. It looks like he wants to go ahead and make the, make the call now, be seen to be doing something as well. And Marina's in pole position, but again, Arbalo is just kind of hanging in there. He's got, you know, five or six more games. There's a Classico coming up at the at the camp. Now which Madrid might have to welcome Barcelona onto the pitch as the League of Champions? Or maybe Barcelona will get the result they need in that game to become La Liga champions, which is going to be super painful for for Real Madrid to have to deal with. For Florentino, he'll feel that personally, you know, he's not going to enjoy that moment at all, which adds to just the emotional feel of the moment, the feel that he needs something big needs to happen. He's got to make a decisive move and there's nothing bigger or more blockbuster y then than bringing back Mourinho. So that's where we are at the minute.
- [30:16]
C
Okay, dammit, we better let you go.
- [30:18]
E
Thanks mate.
- [30:19]
B
Cheers IO.
- [30:26]
A
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You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Iowakamolere
- [33:57]
E
Dembele for PSG scores and Paris St. Germain have a 32 lead
- [34:06]
B
as we head towards half time here.
- [34:08]
C
Well, let's move on to Tuesday night's thrilling action in the Champions League. One of the best games in football I've ever seen personally. PSG5 Bayern Munich for SEB staffer Blur was at the Parc de Prince to witness what was absolute madness. Sebastian, thanks for joining us. Oh my goodness. I've never watched a football game and just smiled for the entirety of it. What was it like for you?
- [34:31]
D
Ridiculous.
- [34:32]
B
Ridiculous.
- [34:33]
D
Actually I it was exhausting because usually, especially when you get two top teams facing each other, it's very rare that they lose control of the game as often as Those two did. But as it happened, there was so much attacking quality on the pitch and I've seen a few people criticize the defensive standards. But I tell you what, if you've got six attackers of that quality on the pitch at the same time, show me two defences who can contain them. But the game just kept pivoting again and again and again. So from like a journalistic perspective standpoint, you're obviously trying to think about what you're going to write afterwards and how you're going to shape your reporting. And I remember speaking to my editor during the match and just thinking, let's just leave it until halftime. And then it was full time and then. But what a spectacle. Like, I, I think particularly with, with this format of Champions League where everything's very drawn out, there's a real lack of jeopardy to see two really, really high grade sides just go at it. Yeah, what a privilege. What a privilege. And a great atmosphere and environment and everybody was absolutely into it and it was just really special. Really special night.
- [35:43]
C
Yeah. I mean, Tom, it was what, five goals at halftime, Ended up with nine goals all in at full time. It's a shame this wasn'. Final, but I love Luis Enrique's comments after the game. He basically says, we deserve to win, we deserve to draw and we deserve to lose this game, you know, and he said, it's by far the best game I have ever been involved in as a manager. Let me just say congratulations to everyone. This is why we love watching football, isn't it?
- [36:09]
E
It was wonderful. And it's the kind of football that, you know, we're not used to seeing two such elite teams just constantly attacking. And you found yourself casting your mind back to the sort of scorelines that we saw in the European cup in the late 1950s, when teams would go out and just try and blow their opponents off the pitch, where there was much less calculation, much less caginess. It was just, we're going to try and score more goals than you. We're going to put our faith in our attacking players. And that's how it felt last night. And then, you know, on top of that, you had the fact that both teams press so aggressively. Man, Mark in this very unique way. And it just gave us the most jaw dropping spectacle. I've never seen anything like it. And a curious game as well, because apart from picking the ball out of the net a lot and claiming the odd cross and taking the odd goal kick, neither goalkeeper actually had that many saves to make. It was just every time an attacking Player found themselves in a position to shoot at goal, they invariably scored or they hit the woodwork and yeah, a very difficult game to make sense of. And you find yourself already looking ahead to the second leg next week and wondering what that's going to be like. Are the two teams going to go about it in the same way? I find it very hard to imagine that, you know, it's going to suddenly become very cagey because it's a second leg. Inevitably there will be an even greater sense of jeopardy. But the sense you got that the players themselves had enjoyed it, that the coaches had enjoyed it. There was a wonderful scene that CBS caught just prior to Luis Enrique's post match interview and he's so company coming past and they had a hug, shared a joke and you get the sense that they would love the second to be like this as well. It was, yeah, an absolutely magnificent evening and I'm unspeakably jealous of Seb for having seen it with his own eyes.
- [38:14]
C
Do you know what this is? If you're a young kid watching football, that is the kind of football match you want to watch, Seb. And let's, let's try and be young children right now. Was there a favourite moment for you out of those goals from that match?
- [38:26]
D
Luis Diaz's goal.
- [38:27]
C
Oh, lovely ball by Kane.
- [38:29]
E
Luis Diaz, wonderful skill.
- [38:31]
B
Has he got the finish you can.
- [38:33]
E
Betty has?
- [38:34]
B
Yeah.
- [38:34]
D
I mean it was slightly ruined by the initial offside and then the VAR correction and it's kind of, that's the crux of my opposition to Var, really take away stuff. But then I suppose you could argue
- [38:44]
C
let's not go there, let's not go there. Let's keep this positive, man. Come on.
- [38:47]
D
Yeah, I suppose also you'd argue that without it it doesn't count, which would be a crying shame. But the level of execution, I think that might be certainly among the best assists of Harry Kane's career. Oh, yes, the first touch from Diaz and then the second and third where he kind of rag dolls Marquinhos and you see him rocking back on his heels and completely off balance. This Marquinhos, right, this is not some joker centre back and then just smashing the ball in. And Diaz to me is a really interesting guy because obviously joined Bayern Munich for a lot of money and yet he's very ready, the headline act, but yet every now and again he comes up with just a moment that takes your breath away. And I thought last night as well, you know, sort of the, the context of that goal was just a magnificent performance from Him Michael Esio was brilliant. Kane was very, very good. I thought Diet of Meccanu played very, very well among a lot of defenders who were, you know, left in isolation a lot of times and really struggling against, you know, some of the best attacking players in the world. But in terms of individual quality, that was just ridiculous. It reminded me a little bit of the very famous goal Marcelo Salah scored against England a very long time ago at Wembley, where a long ball, he controls it on his thigh and then volleys home in kind of the same motion. This was quite like that, but in terms of the level of execution, it reminded me of that immediately and just. And also for what it meant to the game. Because at 5:2 Bayern were in trouble here. Then they get the 5:3 and Makhani's header and then the 5:4 changes not only the complexion of the tie, but also the atmosphere in the ground because it was this reminder of just how much quality Bayern possessed. And it was kind of like, yeah, there's still like at that point, 120 minutes of this left to go right, and no one's in the final yet. So that's just one of those where I think I will always remember being in the stadium when that happened. That's kind of you line these little moments up as a reporter and that was just a great privilege to see that.
- [40:42]
E
I thought that Diaz goal was absolutely remarkable. And I guess it will depend on the outcome of the tie, but I hope that it will be remembered as one of the great Champions League semi final goals. There are so many things to admire in it. The pass, the touch, the finish. But for me, the violence of the feint that he throws. Marquinhos, every single person in the stadium, you look at the way he seems to be cocking the trigger on a shot and yet manages to pull out of it at the last minute, having sent Marquinhos for a baguette in the meantime. Just, just extraordinary. What a goal and what a player. And someone who, you know, who I think does sometimes get overlooked a little bit. When he left Liverpool last summer, I didn't get the sense that, you know, Liverpool fans were devastated to see him leave. I don't think they felt that they were losing all that, all that much when he left. But you know, I might be wrong, but what a player. And that is the second time that he has punished PSG repeatedly at the Parc des Princes this season. He did it in the league phase at the beginning of November, scored both goals, then got sent off for a pretty horrible tackle. On Achrafakimi, as it happened. But an absolute magnificent footballer.
- [41:57]
C
Yeah. Legend has it Marquinhos is currently at the Boulangerie waiting for his baguette to be delivered. Gents, let's talk about Diaz, Kane, Alise and that attacking prowess. Especially you, Seb. You know, having watched a lot of Bayern munich this season, 100 goals for Bayern Munich this season. I mean, are we looking at the best attack in the world right now? I mean, we could look at PSG as well in respect.
- [42:18]
D
Yeah. Last time I came on I reminded you that it's an attacking four and I'm going to do it because Serge
- [42:25]
C
is not there at the moment. He's injured.
- [42:27]
D
Hey, but Jamal Musiala came back in Musiala as well. Yeah. Worth introducing Musiala to this conversation. Right, because Musiala is on this sort of steady incline ascension in form where he's actually, I think got a goal involvement in each of his last five games in the Bundesliga heading into last night. So his form is improving and he's kind in to replace Gabri. And I think the thing about the spine attack is it's beautifully balanced. You have all of these different players who, all world class, but all do things slightly differently. So you have Kane as the center point. Kane is Kane. He's probably the sort of the archetype of the modern 9 10. He can do everything in that position. You have Elise, who just plays with this incredible balletic grace with the ball. Looks like he plays in velvet slippers. It's just mesmerizing to watch. And that battle with Nuna Mendes down Bayern's right side was just absolutely box office. And I don't think I've ever seen Nuna Mendes treated like that by a, by a winger. And then on the other side, Diaz is just a much more forceful player, has all the technical quality as he demonstrated pretty comprehensively last night. And I suppose what you're, what you're watching is like, is this mix of elements. So like a perfect cocktail, right? Everything in perfect harmony. And that's what gives it its danger. That's what makes it so watchable. That's what time and time, time again this season has led to it producing moments which I hope, I hope, I hope we watch for a really long time. So Elise, I mean, it's kind of incredible because we talked about Diaz's goal. I haven't mentioned Elise's goal.
- [43:56]
C
Elise looking to drive right through the
- [43:59]
D
middle, just drive through the middle of great violence. But then all these other moments too like before the. For Bayern's first goal, before the penalty was given, they created a few really watchable phases where they went from south north very quickly with touches of the ball. They never waste a touch of a ball in attack. It's always moving in the right direction. It's always the right decision being made. And when you add players of that quality to that cohesion, you really do get something special and it's incredibly good to watch. So yeah, like I, I don't even really remember what your question was. It was something to do with Bayern's attack being good and I just went off on a monologue, but I think that's probably good enough. Right.
- [44:38]
C
Well, I would say to Tom Due, Dembele, Kvaratskhelia, I mean, that's just as naughty a front three as you're going to get anywhere else in the world.
- [44:46]
E
Yeah, and they were all brilliant again. I mean Kvara, Shelly in particular, who has been exceptional in the Champions League this season as he was in the second half of, of last season, now in double figures for goals. And I think when Bayern went ahead, there was, there was probably a feeling of fear that, that they might, you know, go on to take control of the game. Because I think generally speaking, despite being behind at half time and despite ultimately losing the game, I thought in many ways Bayern were more impressive than PSG last night. But pulls PSG back into the game single handedly running onto that pass from, from the zero duel. Oh, he's so good.
- [45:34]
B
This is his perfect position. Curling with his right foot from the
- [45:38]
E
left, cutting inside Stanasic and curling home in, in trademark fashion. And then obviously gets the fourth goal. The fourth goal as well.
- [45:47]
C
I've really lost count.
- [45:48]
E
No disrespect on the counterattack then Belly had a brilliant game. Squanders a huge opportunity at 1 nil to Bayern when he's played clean through and opens his body up too much, but very quickly manages to put it out of his mind. Scores the equalizer from the penalty spot and also ends up scoring the fifth goal very intelligently as well, leaves Hakimi's cross to run past him in the build up to Grazkalia's second goal. And then Desira Du, who teed up both Grazkalia's first goal and Dembele's goal.
- [46:26]
C
So they all had a contract for the second goal. Do you remember Dembele jumps over the ball. Was that dummy or do you think it was a mispass?
- [46:32]
E
I think it really was because I think it really was.
- [46:34]
C
I think it Was intelligent football at its best.
- [46:36]
E
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It reminded me of that Messi assist from a few seasons ago at Barcelona for Antoine Graeme, which I think might be, if not my very favorite Lionel Messi moment, then definitely kind of top five. There's something about a dummy in that area of the pitch, particularly when a player's on the six yard box, is just so surprising because ordinarily a player coming onto a ball like that so close to goal, 99 times out of 100 will shoot. I think Dembele had the intelligence of knowing that Gracekelli was behind him and in an even better position. And, yeah, I just think across the board, you know, PSG's attackers were fantastic. Shouldn't overlook Joao Neves.
- [47:16]
C
I mean, smallest guy on the pitch
- [47:17]
E
gets the hand on the pitch. And I know that there was a bit of surprise that, you know, has the smallest on the pitch if that's what he actually was. I haven't. I haven't checked that, you know, that he should have scored the header. He is a fantastic header headerer of the ball. Never actually mean he scores an awful lot of headed goals to psg. He has got the most remarkable spring on him. So I think, you know, some people might have found it slightly surprising to see him scoring a goal like that.
- [47:41]
D
But if you.
- [47:42]
E
If you follow PSG regularly, you'll know that he's got that in his locker.
- [47:45]
C
All right, gents, before we go, the final question, really, on this, it's a hard one to call. Who's winning it? Seb, are you going for Bayern or are you going for psg?
- [47:53]
D
Yeah, Bayern. I like the second leg. I like the team that's home in the second leg. Bayern in front of their home crowd. Yeah, I would give them the edge. I also think Kompany made a little bit of a mistake last night. I don't think Davis should have played. I thought Lima was the right pick at fullback and it's a decision that they corrected at halftime and it, you know, it helped things. So I expect that to be the team next, next week. God, I can't wait. I just. Let's just do it tonight, right?
- [48:19]
E
Yeah.
- [48:19]
D
I still like Bayern.
- [48:20]
C
Yeah. All right, Tom.
- [48:22]
E
I'll say psg.
- [48:22]
C
Of course you will.
- [48:23]
E
For balance. I mean, Bayern will have to attack. I mean, not that, you know, they need much encouragement to do so, but they will because they're behind. And we saw in the first part of the second half last night that when they did so, they left a huge amount of space for psg. To run into. And that's where the fourth and fifth goals came from. And although being away from home is generally seen as a disadvantage, PSG did this multiple times last season in the Champions League they were away from home in the second leg against Aston Villa, against Liverpool as well this season, same thing against Chelsea and against Liverpool as well perhaps. So they have that experience and yeah, I think with what they showed last night, you would expect that they will learn from the mistakes of last night. I think the most concerning aspect was how poor they were defensively. The fact that all four Bayern goals were scored right down the middle. The run from Diaz and then the pass in from, I think Kane, Elise Diaz in the build up to the penalty. Elise who just runs into the box and scores the second. A straight free kick from Kimmich, that Upper Mokhano nods in for the third and then a ball over the top from Kane down the middle for Diaz, for the four. So that's something they'll have to tighten up, but they've shown they can do it before. And you know, if nothing else, we have rediscovered the great psg, I think from last season. And you get that sense that they, you know, they are moving through the gears again in the way they did 12 months ago.
- [49:50]
C
All right, gents, honestly, we could talk about this all day. Can't wait for the second leg, but in the meantime, Arsenal play Atletico Madrid tonight in the Champions League. Same kind of football. Can't guarantee it. All right, let's leave it there. Tom, Seb, Dermot, appreciate your time and also thank you guys for joining us too. We'll catch you later.
- [50:10]
A
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroo and Jay Beale with editing by Paul Iliff and Nick Thompson. The executive producer is Ady Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows. Search for the Athletic Wherever you get your podcasts, you'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
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