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- [00:00]
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- [01:31]
The Athletic
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [01:38]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimwaleri. The Thomas Frank era has officially begun at spurs and they've been busy. Mohamed Kudu is already through the door and Morgan Gibbs Y is next on the list. But will their transfer policy get results? Right here with us today we have the Athletic Seb Stafford Bleu and Tottenham Hotspur writer Jay Harris as well. Jay, let's get into this one. I mean, it's almost like Groundhog Day for you, isn't it? It's like our Spurs Brentford in disguise. Talk to us. Thomas Frank. His ERA has begun at Spurs. What has it been like so far? How is he settling into his new life?
- [02:21]
Jay Harris
It got off slowly because he was announced I think in the middle of June, but he didn't do any press until last week. So there was this month or so where he was in the job. Nobody had had heard from him. He'd obviously done club interviews, so last week was the first proper opportunity to speak to him. And it seems like he's doing a pretty good job so far. Spoke really Confidently. He was definitely a bit more reserved than usual. He said all of the right things. Very respectful towards Ange Postecoglou. I think the fact that they've already signed Muhammad Kudus and are trying to be maybe a bit more forceful in the transfer market than they've been in previous years is really good for him. He's obviously changed the backroom staff massively. Spurs have gone through, not just in terms of the coaching staff, but in other departments, a lot of change this summer. So it's going to take a little bit of time for everything to become seamless. But so far, from what I've seen from Thomas Rank, everything's going really well. And I should add, fans are buzzing because they scored a set piece against Reading and they practice set pieces. So on that alone, he's made a lot of spurs fans very happy.
- [03:24]
Ayo Akimwaleri
It's interesting, isn't it, how quickly football moves on, Sir. Because set pieces were definitely something an Postecoglou wasn't too fond of. Interestingly, I mean, the Postecoglou era almost seems, dare I say, forgotten, but I feel like everyone's ready to move forward a little bit.
- [03:40]
Seb Stafford-Bleu
Yeah, I mean, forgotten's the wrong word that I think a lot of people, and I don't know where people are stage wise with this, but eventually there'll come a point where people think that was hopefully a great step towards what follows next. And I think that it's. There's no, there's no point in pretending that there weren't flaws with Postecoglou's management or just a lot of the things that went on within last season and within things like, you know, strength and conditioning didn't, didn't work particularly well. But I think if you look at the experience and what a lot of those players will take from the experience, particularly the young ones who are so front and center of the Europa League triumph. Even the players who didn't play in the final, like Lucas Bergwa was very important last season, Archie Gray very, very important last season. I think that's essential. So whilst Thomas Frank is inheriting a side which he will want to make his own over time, there's a kind of a bedrock of players who've been hardened by adversity in some instances, but also have had the benefit of knowing what it's like to, as Brian Puff used to say, they know what the taste of champagne is like now, right. And they've. They understand what it is to get over the line in a major competition. So I hope that becomes part of Pastor Cogley's legacy. Hate that word because it's kind of overused legacy, but I think that is appropriate in this instance. So not forgotten. And I don't think things that happened last year will ever be forgotten. I'm thinking particularly of the parade, thinking of the way that those fans responded to the players on that day down the high street. Those are the things that stay with you forever. And I think, you know, in 20, 30 years from now, I think for anyone who was there or anyone who remembers the experience of either being in the stadium in Bilbao or watching on TV or what it felt like to get through that 90 minutes, that will be one of the most vivid Tottenham memories of their lifetime. I'm absolutely convinced about that. And Postecogli will forever be entwined with it.
- [05:27]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Okay, Jay, let's talk about Thomas Frank's first match with Spurs. That was on Saturday, a 2 nil win over Reading. Spoken about set pieces. Any other indications as to how he wants to sort of set this team up?
- [05:40]
Jay Harris
Yeah, set pieces was obviously a big one. And in his press conference last week he spoke a lot about tightening up the defense. And I think the exact quote you said was something along the lines of, I've never seen a team win anything unless they've got a good defense. It was pretty much a 4, 3, 3. Alfie Divine, who is someone who's come through their academy, he was on loan in Belgium last season. He started the first half in a midfield free with Benton, Kur and sa and the vine played really, really high up, especially when spurs didn't have the ball. It almost looked like a 4, 2, 2, 2 shape out of possession. So you'd have, I think it was Brennan Johnson and Mikey Moore out wide, Divine pushing up with Solanke and that's something that Brenford did under Thomas Frank. You'd normally get Mikkel Damasgaard, who was the 10 push up alongside Johannes Visser, in the press. It's so hard with preseason friendlies because they just play too completely different 11s. One thing they did a lot in the first half was ping the ball over the top towards Brennan Johnson, who's obviously a right footed right winger. But then the second half they bring on Kudos. A left footed right winger. He's very different to Johnson. He's far more dynamic. He takes players on a lot more and that just gave them a very different dynamic. I'm sure both of those players will be very valuable. We just have to sort of see how that plays out. But my sort of early prediction is that I think Kudos and Solanke, those two together are going to be a lot of fun to watch. I think they'll complement each other quite well.
- [07:02]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah, we've talked about kudus, but I mean, I'm interested in this young Glad. By the way, Seb. Luka Vukovic, could we have another little Croatian wonderkid here at Spurs?
- [07:11]
Seb Stafford-Bleu
Nothing little about Luka Vuskovic. He is enormous. He is enormous. It's really interesting. I live in Hamburg and his older brother has been playing for Hocef for a couple of years and he's in the middle of a drug ban actually, and has had a very, very difficult time. But before that happened. Same kind of footballer, in a way, like a really good, like technical footballer. Menace at set pieces. But I think this is a reputation Luka has developed in Belgium. I know a few people in Belgium football who talk about what a menace he is from set pieces just because. Not just because he's so big, but his awareness of what his function is within a set piece. Like whether it's to be on the. To be the exclamation point at its end or to be the first man to a ball to win the flick on to direct the header. He's so good at all of that. I mean, I must admit, I'm still. I don't know what the right context is for his actual defending yet or how Tottenham see his season coming up. That's probably a question for Jay, but in terms of his intelligence and his understanding for those mechanics, it's really promising. And by the way, his goal reminded me of. And there's no higher praise really here, technique wise. But a goal Raphael van der Vaart scored at Villa park probably in 2010, that sort of carved shot into the far corner. You don't see many centre backs do that.
- [08:26]
Ayo Akimwaleri
I mean, spurs do have a habit of buying interesting centre backs. J, what are you thinking about this one? Should spurs fans be excited?
- [08:33]
Jay Harris
Yeah, they should be. I sort of want to temper expectations a little bit because he did show a few signs of rustiness against Reading. His first action in the game was to miscontrol the ball and clatter into a Reading player. So it's fantastic he got the assist and that he scored, but he will mainly be judged on what he does at the back. And spurs have a lot of centre backs at the moment. We don't know what's going to happen without goings, but they've got, you know, Van de Ven, Romero, Dragus in Danso Kota Takai Vuskovic, Ashley Phillips as well. They've got, you know, an issue with homegrown players and the size of their squad for the Champions League. So I do sort of wonder if it is best for Vuskovic's development that he stays with spurs in preseason and he gets time with Thomas Frank and then maybe for the rest of the season or for the actual season itself, he goes out on another loan and is maybe ready to compete for a first team spot next year.
- [09:24]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Okay. Something that's always fascinating when a new coach or manager comes into a new team is, is what they're going to do that's slightly different from the previous guy that came in. And by that I mean injuries and try to safeguard against that, especially for Thomas Frank. Any indication as to how he's going to try and combat that with this squad?
- [09:41]
Jay Harris
I actually thought Frank said something quite punchy in his press conference and I wonder if it's something that he said during the negotiations or during the hiring process to the sporting director Johan Langer, chairman Daniel Levy and the new CEO Vinay Venkateshen. But he said he didn't think spurs had genuinely competed in multiple competitions since 2018, 2019. That's of course the season that spurs lost the Champions League final to Liverpool, but they finished fourth in the league and I think they got eliminated from the the league cup in the semi finals. So he was talking about in the press conference making sure that they build players robustness. He must have said that word five or so times. Building layers, which is another favorite buzzword of his from Brentford. And making sure that they're in a good physical condition during preseason and they can take that into the season itself. And the best example of that is Richarlison, because Richarlison wasn't involved with this team against Reading. So people immediately started panicking and worried if he was injured again. But Frank was just talking about the importance of a player with his injury record of making sure that he's in, you know, peak physical condition before you throw him back into game type situations. There were definitely occasions last season where Richarlison played too many minutes, having just come back from injury and broke down again. And I think spurs are very, very aware of avoiding that situation. I alluded to it earlier, but there's been a lot of personnel change in other departments and the medical one is, is one of them Adam Brett, who I believe was, let me get this right, head of Performance Services last season. He's left Nick Davies, the head of Sports Science. He's left. Thomas Frank brought a couple of people with him from Brentford. Nick Stubbings, who I believe is medical lead. Tom Perryman, strength and conditioning coach. I still think spurs will hire a couple of other people in the medical department to fill some of the other roles. Even before Ange left, I think way back in January, February time, they were advertising for roles in the medical department anyways. And at the end of the season, Ange Postecoglou did admit that they'd approached the campaign wrong. So I think, yes, Thomas Frank and the coaching staff will do things differently, but I think spurs overall, the hierarchy, have also learned that there were things that they implemented last season that didn't work and they're trying to change that.
- [11:56]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Big question, Seb. What kind of manager do you think Thomas Frank is going to be for Spurs? There's a real pragmatism that I've always liked about him and that could also help spurs moving forward, I imagine.
- [12:06]
Seb Stafford-Bleu
Yeah, there's no question the demand was for less of an ideologue, I think, because I think at times last season, no question that Postecoglou is a commitment to his type of football, got in his own way, which is a strange thing to say given the way in which they ended up winning the Europa League, which was as far away from his preferred style as you could possibly get. You talked earlier about all the things that have to be juggled now, the different competitions being competitive across all of them. It's not acceptable to have another 17th place season, but be, you know, quite competitive in the Champions League just doesn't. It's not good enough, really. So I think what it requires is someone that's able to kind of to navigate the peaks and troughs of a season. Like the difficult moments, understanding when you're in the middle of November, you've got players who've just flown back from international duty and you need to play a certain way. Your game state needs to be changed to make sure that you can just get the points in whatever way you need to. You can coach your way around the weaknesses in a team. If you've got a teenage centre back playing at a position, for instance, that you need to be able to protect that player, you need to be able to protect it with a little bit more reservation in your football. And yeah, it's always a little bit difficult when someone makes a move from a club like Brentford to a club like Tottenham, where things are so different. The resources are different, the expectation is different, the scale of everything is different because the temptation is to think that all of the virtues that they showed in the first club are just going to be amplified by the scale that they've inherited. But there's a coaching dexterity to Frank, which I really like. There's a kind of willingness to. What's the right way of phrasing this? Because this can show me at my most inarticulate. I think play the game in the right way is not quite what I'm looking for, but to understand the way you have to play in certain situations. I think he possesses that. If someone more intelligent can put that into a better form for me, that would be great. But that is what I mean.
- [13:53]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Pragmatism sounds about right, to be fair.
- [13:55]
Seb Stafford-Bleu
Well, no, I don't know, because pragmatism. Pragmatism has become a bit of a dirty word. Like it's become sort of bastardized in a way, because it's come to mean, like crap football.
- [14:02]
Ayo Akimwaleri
No, no, no. But I mean, it's like, you know, sometimes you can't play your slick, beautiful football all attacking. If a team's playing on a low block. You just have to be quite smart about how you get.
- [14:12]
Seb Stafford-Bleu
That's the thing, right? That's the word that I want to use, smart. And we've got there. We've got there. Between the three of us, we've got there. But, like, you know, just. Just a little bit of nuance, a bit of canniness, maybe. And from what I've seen of Thomas Frank, he certainly possesses that and certainly has the ability to impart that within a team.
- [14:29]
Jay Harris
It's the cliche, not horses for courses.
- [14:32]
Ayo Akimwaleri
You threw that one in there, Jay.
- [14:35]
Jay Harris
It's true. Just quickly, I went to Denmark last month to do a piece for the Athletic, which is hopefully coming out in a couple of days. And I spoke to a lot of people that worked with Thomas Frank at the beginning of his career, and. And one of them is a man called Jim Sterner Hansen, who was the general secretary at the Danish FA for, I think, 26 years. And he's the man who hired Thomas Frank when Frank was in charge of Denmark's under 16s, under 17s. And he said that Frank was a great manager, but he could be naive. When he was younger, he was all about possession, possession, possession. I think Frank took massive inspiration from Barcelon Bologna when they were coached by Pep Guardiola. Frank then became quite close friends with Albert Capeas, who is, I believe, the. The director of La Masia for a period of time in, like, the early 2000s. So he was all about possession, possession, possession. Denmark's youth team lost the game to Norway once. Frank was banging on about how they had 65% possession. And Jim, the person I spoke to said, yeah, but they lost two one. And that's something that Frank has really learned over time. And what he's done at Brentford is, is proof of that. He has had to be pragmatic. He's had to sacrifice his to suit the team's needs. Everybody I spoke to in Denmark called him open minded. He's accepted when he's had to change. He might want to play in a particular style with spurs, but if he doesn't have the players to do it, he's not going to force them to. He, he will adapt. So I think whatever happens, he'll find a way to make things work. Whereas with Ange Postecoglou he needed very specific players playing in a very specific way for his system to flourish.
- [16:10]
Ayo Akimwaleri
I want to talk very quickly before we move on, Jay, about how spurs work with their attacking talent. You talk about Richarlison, you talk about Sonny, you talk about Kulisiewski, Johnson, now Kudus, we're going to talk about Gibbs White later. But I mean, how, how are they going to make this all work?
- [16:24]
Jay Harris
Yeah, it is bolstered. It's a lot of different options. Thomas Frank said something quite interesting. He spoke about a front three or a front four and it was just a throwaway line. He said. But it does make me think. And then what he did with Alfie Devine confirmed this, that he might try and play with a number 10. Whereas what Ange Postecoglou, he had a number 6 which was Benton Koro Basuma and then he had two very creative eights in Madison and Kulasevski, or sometimes it would be Sar and Bergwa for one of them. Whereas it seems like Frank will have two slightly deeper midfielders and then a number 10 sort of conducting the play. You've got three or four players in that squad who can play as the 10. Madison Kulasevski. Kudus, as you said, you've got Johnson and Kudos on the right wing. You've got tell Odebear son Mikey Moore, you've got an incredible array of attacking talent. Richarlison can play on the left as well in an emergency if needed. The honest answer is I have no idea how it's going to work. I think it's safe to say that starting striker spot is Solankes. He's not going to lose it. I feel like Kudos will probably start on the right wing just because he offers something a little bit different to some of the other players. He's far more direct, he's much better at take ons. The left wing slot is the position I feel is completely up for grabs. I don't want to say too much because we'll come on to son properly a little bit later, but I don't think he's their first choice left winger anymore. Tell Another Bear are two different players. They're still getting used to spurs, they're getting used to the Premier League and I think that's what's going to be really important on this pre season tour. Frank's going to have all of the players available to him. There's no major European Championship or World cup this summer. Archie Gray Teller not a Bear were with the under 21s but they're back now. It means there is not going to be any disruption. He gets a few days in Hong Kong, a few days in Seoul to properly work with these players and I think by the end of that he'll have an idea of who are going to be starting on that opening day of the season.
- [18:23]
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- [19:27]
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- [19:56]
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- [20:23]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Well, let's talk about the state of affairs surrounding the Morgan Gibbs White potential transfer by hearing from our Nottingham Forest correspondent Paul Taylor, who has the latest.
- [20:33]
The Athletic
When Morgan Gibbs White left the Chesterfield pitch as Forest played Monaco in a friendly there last weekend, he clapped the supporters and did a little heart shape before he went down the tunnel with his hands and Forest fans were left to wonder whether that was going to be a goodbye from from the man that had been such an integral figure in their side since they were promoted back to the Premier League in 2022. The fact that he didn't initially join up with the training camp in Portugal prompted further speculation, but that was because of a family matter and nothing to do with the transfer situation. He is expected to join up with the rest of the players as far as prepare for games against Fulham and Estoril in the Old Calf Forrester. They're in an awkward position because of the two remaining years on on Gibbs White's contract. They're in a vulnerable position because of that and because of his unwillingness to put pen to paper on the on a new deal. Forest is still keen or still working to see if he can be persuaded to do that, which would obviously end a lot of their concerns and and cancel out the the 60 million pound release clause which has been at the heart of this entire issue. Forests were unhappy with the manner in which that supposedly confidential release clause was something that Tottenham had apparently become aware of. Their bid for the player was at precisely the right amount to trigger it. They're also upset that they did not give permission for Tottenham to talk to Gibbs White at a time when they'd even provisionally arranged a medical for the player. The London club and Forest cut off all contact with Tottenham as a result. This comes at a time when Forest had already sold Anthony Elanga to Newcastle, another one of their attacking creative players. They sold him for 52 million pounds, which was a decision they might very well have made differently had they been aware of the situation that's going to arise with Gibbs White and Tottenham. In the meantime, while we wait to see what happens with Gibbs White, whether another club such as Manchester City or even Tottenham return to make a fresh bid for him, we will see.
- [22:25]
Ayo Akimwaleri
I mean Seb, this could be really fascinating for spurs if they are able to get Morgan Gibbs White, definitely definite talent, wonderful season last season. But I'm really fascinated by this idea of a secret release clause. I mean, what is the point of having a secret release clause? But also how on earth will spurs have got wind of this?
- [22:43]
Seb Stafford-Bleu
I'm going to talk in abstract terms so I don't get myself into trouble, but a lot of transfers, people in my age, I'm just about turn 41. So that's your reference point. We got used to this word tapping up. These words tapping up a few decades ago which meant being in contact with players representative before you have permission to do it. That's very out of date because there isn't really a transfer in world football that happens now without an interested party contacting players representative either through an intermediary or whatever the case may be. Because the bid is usually the last thing that happens. If you have a player's interest and you kind of gauge for what it's going to cost, then you submit a bid. It's not quite like in the old football manager days. Here, here's a bid, what do you reckon? And then you go and talk to the players. So the specifics of this situation, I don't know and I haven't reported on it, so I'm not going to comment. But it's not unusual. It's just one of those things that happens. And forgetting all the kind of the drama that's followed. 60 million sounds like a pretty decent price. And Morgan gives White. I think it's fantastic footballer. He's done brilliant things at Forest and you know, that is the fee and that's what his release clause was set up. So if you valued him more highly, you know, maybe, maybe the release clause should have been higher. But the actual details of how it was that spurs came to know what the release clause was or apparently came to know what the release clause was precisely, I don't know, but nothing that I've heard sounds particularly out of the ordinary.
- [24:06]
Jay Harris
I use this as a reference point on the view from the lane. But the luis Suarez won 10 or so years ago. If I remember correctly, Arsenal thought the 40 million plus 1 pound bid meant that they could sign him, whereas Liverpool's perspective or stance was it just meant that we'd consider the bid, we've considered the bid and we don't want to sell him so it's quite murky and for a player to have a, a secret release clause, it doesn't really benefit him because then if he wants to, to leave, if other teams aren't aware of that release clause, then it makes it more difficult for the player to leave. It's a very strange element of, of football that. And I think if we're taking a step back and being honest a lot, what a lot of this is probably about is about money. And Forest are probably a little bit, bit irritated that an England international might go for £60 million and they feel like he's worth a little bit more to them. I've just been reporting on the, the Brian and Bumo Brentford Man United situation and there were a lot of disagreements and tension around the value and different fees being banded around and stuff like that. And at the end of the day, what it comes down to is Brentford want more money, Man United want to pay less money. And I'm sure principally that is what underpins this situation. Spurs want to get a player. It's an excellent market opportunity to get gibbs white for 60 million pounds. Forest probably want more. That's probably where the underlying tension is.
- [25:32]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Okay, if they don't get Gibbs White, I suppose looking elsewhere because, I mean, it would be a really important player if they can get him and fit him into this squad.
- [25:40]
Jay Harris
Well, I think one of the reasons why that Gibbs White story just hit so hard is because it felt very out of the blue. Because if you ask most Tottenham fans at the beginning of the window what positions they needed strengthening the number 8, number 10 would not have been their first answer. It probably wouldn't have been their second, their third, their fourth or, or their fifth. They've got Madison, they've got Kulasevsky, they've now got Kudos. So on the face of it, it is actually a little bit strange. So I look at it as it's a good market opportunity to get a very good player for £60 million who's. Who's not even entered his peak years yet. I think Gibbs White is still 24 or is about to turn 20. If Gibbs White doesn't join spurs, then what I would want them to do is move away from trying to sign a number 8 or a number 10 because they have options there. I think they still need to decide what they're going to do with the number six position. Benton Kerr and Basuma are both into the final years of their contract. As Seb alluded to earlier, Archie Gray wants to play there, but spent all of his debut season at spurs playing center back or right back, which means as talented as Gray is, and lots of people speak about his potential in his senior career, he's only actually played holding midfielder a couple of times. Do spurs, to ensure Frank is a success in his debut season, need to go out and get a specialist number six? So if they don't get Gibbs White, I think that's what I'd like to see them do. To sort of pivot away from that entirely and look at a position in the squad which still feels like quite a bit of a problem.
- [27:12]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Seb Jay makes an interesting point, actually, but I would also caveat that and say someone like James Madison, as talented as he is as a player, you can't necessarily guarantee he's going to be fit for an entire season. I mean, that's the big one, isn't it? I mean, we saw that last season. Again, pivotal point in which spurs needed a player like that. And unfortunately he was injured for a long time.
- [27:33]
Seb Stafford-Bleu
Yeah, I think it's kind of. It's a product of the way that Madison plays. He takes a lot of physical contact, he suffers a lot of impact injuries and, you know, I'm no medical expert, but clearly there's a wear and tear associated with that. And as a result, it's very difficult to guarantee 38 games a season out of him. And also, Madison seems to be one of those players who, after he suffers injury and loses his momentum, he tends to need quite a few games to get back to it, to get back into the rhythm. And I think that's kind of fair because as a playmaker, you're all about sensing the game around you and touch and confidence in, you know, your own abilities. And those are the things that probably wane when you spend long periods on the sidelines. And it's just got to that stage where, like you, you kind of. I think Madison's an excellent player at his very best. He's a brilliant player. I remember when he first signed for spurs being actually surprised by how good he is and being kind of incredulous at some of the things that Leicester City fans said about him as he. As he departed their club the previous summer. But as time has gone on, you do get a little bit of a sense of that frustration because the rich doses of his input are so rich and it can be so impactful and so good that when he's not there or when he's not playing well, it's very difficult to cope with. And I don't know what the answer is. To that because you have this excellent player but you also can't. That's no consolation. Like you know, it's Ferrari in the garage, right? Who cares? And you know, let's hold our horses and respect the fact the club have reconfigured the strength and conditioning staff this summer. They've obviously done that for a reason. So maybe there'll be an impact on Madison. But it's also difficult to know what his place is because we talked about Kudis role and I think I agree with Jay. I think like he'll start as a sort of right sided player cutting in from the touchline. But then that implies that Kulasevski's probably destined for a number 10 role or a central role. That's the role that he prefers to play. And Kulasevski is the younger player, more durable player, the more athletic player, dare I say it. So it's really difficult to know. I mean I could see Madison playing deeper. I could see Madison in the nate like in certain games and I could see the value of having him with Kulasevsky in the same side given the way that they're recruiting this summer. Maybe that is the way to look at this. Rather than players have set positions in a first team you have all of these components that can be moved around by a coach who's a little bit more tactically dexterous and agile. I don't know. That's a complete guess and just theory. It's not based on anything I've heard, but that might be the smarter context to apply at this point.
- [29:56]
Jay Harris
I think just quickly thank you for pointing out the Madison and Gibbs White availability record. I can dig a little bit deeper into it here. So over the last two seasons Gibbs Wyatt has played at least a thousand minutes more than Madison in both of them. And this is very rough numbers with OPTA database in front of me. But I think Gibbs White has started 69 Premier League games in the last two seasons and Madison has started 47. So that is a massive drop. And now an element of that will be spurs were playing in the Europa League maybe. See Maddison wasn't needed every week, but I think most of the reason or the main reason why he's missed that many games is because he was out injured.
- [30:36]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah, spot on. As we're talking about recruitment, you think about the arrivals of Kudus and potentially Gibbs White. Is this a move away from previous kind of transfer dealings? Jay, you know when I say this I mean players that are able to just come in and get going and by that I mean brought in people like Burkva, brought in people like Drago sand for instance, that took a bit of time to bed themselves in the team. Is this more purposeful in your eyes?
- [31:02]
Jay Harris
Yeah, I think it is. I think there's a couple of different reasons. I should point out that they still are signing young players. You know, just got Kota Takaya, the Japanese international. The return to the Champions League changes things. First time they're back in that competition since 2223 when Conte was still in charge. So under sporting director Johan Langer, he joined in November 2023, they have mainly signed very young players. But when you want to be competitive in multiple competitions, especially the Champions League, you. You need experience. I think spurs obviously want Frank to succeed and so they're. They're backing him. They did the exact same with, with Ange when he joined. You know, they had Madison Van de Ven Vicario that summer. What feels slightly different to me and potentially more significant is that they got Kudos and Takai before the pre season tour and obviously attempted to do that with Gibbs White last year. The only signing who improved the starting eleven straight away was Solanke and he didn't join until I think maybe a week before the first game of the season. And I think that's something we shouldn't underestimate how important it is getting players in the door quickly. So I think what feels slightly different is that spurs have been quite maybe aggressive in their dealings in the transfer market this summer. Yes, they're signing more players with Premier League experience. That's partially because of the Champions League. But they also seem to be just a bit more bullish in the way they're going about it as well.
- [32:27]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Go on for that.
- [32:27]
Seb Stafford-Bleu
Well, I just wanted to be a bit of a killjoy. I. Because I agree with everything Jay said. But it's the 23rd of July and what spurs have actually done so far is really just kudus in terms of players that will improve the first team, like Morgan, Gibbs White. I understand that's an exceptional situation. But I also think it's worth remembering here that spurs are playing catch up with all of the teams ahead of them and technically there are 16 of those in the Premier League. And if you look at some of the transfer activity elsewhere, Arsenal, Manchester City, Liverpool, a bit of an outlier. Even Man United, even May United were all kind of the difficulties that they supposedly have around financing and being attractive outspent Tottenham already. So I still think there's a lot to do and I think the power of that kind of that 48 hours where two things nearly happened and only one actually did. I think that's a little bit out of date and I think that spurs are heading off on tour very, very soon. Probably with only one new first teamer on board already. I don't think it's quite as dramatic as I would have said it was a week ago. I think it's still a little bit like okay, well what's the other option? What's the pivot? If Morgan's white isn't going to be available, what's next? Because it can't be a situation where, well, Nottingham Forest had made it difficult for us so we'll just wait until the middle of August to do something else or whatever the case, I think there is still a need for a bit more urgency and I think some of the fans got a bit frustrated last season because when they went on tour there became this kind of well, actually these young guys are pretty good and we're gonna. And that feels like an annual event. At spurs there's always a guy who surprised people and it means that you don't have to spend in a certain position. And I would still say, and we raised this earlier, number six. Spending in that position is an absolute. Must have to do it, have to do it. There is no like for like replacement for Dominic Solanke at the moment. Like Matthias Tell can sort of play as a center forward. Son Heung Min can sort of play as a center forward. Maybe a couple of those guys could be number nines. Richarlison don't know. I still think he's better as a, as a wide forward rather than a nine. And there's that, that kind of injury issue and there's the issue of whether he's staying at the club. So that needs fixing. There's no real competition for destiny. Odogi I know Jed Spence can play as a left sided fullback or wing back but I think he's better on the right, more natural on the right. I think that needs resolving and there are still some question marks in that squad about who's going to be part of it next season. So I'm delighted that there's been some aggression but I think there needs to be a bit more particularly relative to what other Premier League clubs are doing. Aggression is what Liverpool are doing right. And I know that's not within Tottenham's realm at the moment because that is for all sorts of reasons. But that's the bar, right? Rather than just we've spent 16 million on a West Ham player. And he's a very, very good West Ham player. But that is not a complete fix for all the different issues. And I don't think we should forget that. Sorry. How miserable of me.
- [35:20]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Do you know what? Then let's bring you back then. Let's give you some hope. Or at least spurs fans some hope.
- [35:25]
Seb Stafford-Bleu
Hey, hey. You don't want to talk about hope. I'm a Europa League champion of the world. And you're just. You don't know what that feels like. You don't know hope. You do not know hope.
- [35:35]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Do you know what? I've got to let you have it. I have no reply to that. Seb, I'm really sorry I stepped back from the mic.
- [35:39]
Seb Stafford-Bleu
Ask your question.
- [35:40]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Do you know, actually got to be really nice and you came for me. But would the name Joao Polygn be good for spurs then? If we're looking at more recruitment? Because look, we knew what he did at Fulham. It hasn't clearly worked out that well as it expected at Bayern Munich. That is still a top, top player. I'm not even asking for, you know, a buy, even a loan for the season could be really interesting in bolstering the ranks.
- [36:04]
Seb Stafford-Bleu
Japanese has had a difficult time in Germany. So when he. When he arrived a year ago, I remember and I think I wrote this at the time, perfect signing, perfect time, brilliant. That's going to buttress their reclaiming of the Bundesliga. Didn't happen like that. Pollina is. I think it's a pretty decent footballer to dismiss him as like a sort of destroying ball winner. I know he does those things very well, but I don't think that's his limit. It just hasn't worked. And I think because he hasn't had consistent game time, there's been a really significant drop in his confidence eye and that's shown. He's had some really difficult moments. I mean, his red card, I think it was against Holsten, Keel or Bachem last season at home. Very, very costly, really bad tackle. And. And if you were signing the player, he was at Fulham, sure. But that's a year ago now. And I'm not sure he's quite the same player emotionally. And so if you're shopping for a six of that age, you want a six, you go straight into the team and makes you better immediately. And I think he's someone that in three, four months time recovers to where he was at Fulham. But if you're talking about alone, then that's half a season, really. And he's a bit more of an unknown to me now than he was when he left England and I haven't liked a lot of what I've seen at Bayern.
- [37:19]
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- [39:40]
Ayo Akimwaleri
We talk about potential incomings. Jay there's still a conversation about what happens to Sonyu Min. And also let's not forget Christian Romero. There were utterings back end of last season of him potentially eyeing a move elsewhere. I mean what is the future of that? Because Sonny in particular for been so pivotal to what this club has gone to achieve over the years. But as we've seen I'd say in the last couple of years the output hasn't really matched a lot of the hype that we've seen previously.
- [40:06]
Jay Harris
Yeah, the. The speculation around Romero's features died down a little bit. He was linked with Athletico Madrid quite heavily. But my colleague Jack Pitt Brook reported last week that he seems to think Athletico are moving on from that Son. It's a really tricky situation because he's been at the club for a decade, or he'll celebrate a decade at the club next month. Been so pivotal to what they've done. When Harry Kane and others left to win trophies, he stayed and did it. So he's got a very, very special place in the fans of the supporters, as I'm sure Seb will tell you. But last season was my only experience of watching him week in, week out. And I thought he was pretty miserable a lot of the time. Not in terms of his attitude, but in terms of how he played on the pitch. He just didn't look particularly dynamic. He struggled to take players on. When I was at the train station after the Reading game on Saturday, spoke to a group of fans and there was a moment in that second half where Son was down the wing and he tried to get past the Reading fullback and he sort of stumbled over his own feet and everybody sort of pitied him. And I'm sure Son would hate to hear that. This is someone who scored loads of goals in the Premier League and now he can't get past a League one right back. So I said that when Frank took over, that Son and Romero were two quite tricky situations for him, because not only there were whispers about their future, but because they're captain and vice captain with Son. Part of me feels like the best solution for all parties is that he goes on the pre season tour to Hong Kong and South Korea. He gets a hero's welcome back home having won a trophy. And then at the end of that, everybody says, thank you so much for your service. Now's the time for you to leave. Because Frank didn't confirm whether he'd keep the captain's armband. And if Son does stay, he's not the best left winger at the club. So if he's not starting week in, week out, shouldn't really be captain or he should be club captain and there's a different on pitch captain, and then that just gets a little bit messy. We'll see how things unfold. But for me, I think Romero could have a future at Spurs. He's a very good footballer. He's had his fitness issues, but if he sort of Knuckles down and focuses under a new head coach and he could be integral to them, son. I feel like he's in decline and it might be better for all parties that he takes a new challenge somewhere else.
- [42:27]
Seb Stafford-Bleu
Do you think Jay, like, the way to manage the situation is just for Seon Heung Min to decide what he wants? Because to me, his career at spurs has been a real selfless element to it because he has put up with quite a lot of nonsense. He has played in a team which at times has been beneath him, I think. And I'm sure he, you know, had he kicked up a fuss, there would have been options for him further up the food chain at different times. And I think when a player does that, this is a little bit of a. My romantic side, but don't tell my wife, but. But I believe, like, when a player gives that much of his career kind of up to him, I know football doesn't really work like that, but that's how I'd want it to work. This is what your expectation is. This is kind of what your role on the team is. What do you want? If you want to go, we'll make it work for you. If you want to stay and, you know, be the iconic figure that you've developed in to. And be a little bit more of a. Have a little bit more of a ceremonial role and almost kind of have a lap of honor after what he was part of last season. And it's one of the great moments in Tottenham's modern history, him in James Madison's arms at the end of it, just sobbing because that kind of captured what he'd been willing to kind of give up in pursuit of that moment. And that, to me, I don't want this to end in an ugly way. I want him to say, hey, I'm going to walk off now into the sun. But I don't want him to be treated shabbily by the club. That's the most important thing, I think.
- [43:52]
Jay Harris
So I did find it quite interesting that on the final day of the season against Brighton, that son went round and did his own individual lap of honour as well, after the team did one. And I did sort of think, I wonder if that is a little bit of a goodbye gesture. So the son and Romero topics were sort of the only stumbling blocks from Frank's first press conference, because he got asked about them multiple times and obviously there's a lot of emotion wrapped up in it. And one of the questions he was asked was basically what you just said as he earned the Right. And Frank basically said, it's always tricky situations like that. Right now I have a player that's fully committed and training well. If a player has been at a club a long time, then there'll always be a decision for the club to take the head coach and the guys who are in charge, in this case, Daniel Levy and Johan Langer. What I read from that was if they think Son should stay or they want a particular fee for him to leave, etc, then they're going to do what's in the club's best interest. Now, people might not agree with that. I'm sure lots of spurs fans wanted, not necessarily wanted Kane to leave, but understood why he wanted to leave and would have liked Levy to make that situation slightly easier for him as opposed to leaving, I think, on the final day of the transfer window. But I read from that that if Son expresses that he wants to leave, it doesn't mean that spurs will grant that wish, and it certainly doesn't mean that spurs would be accommodating and maybe let him leave for a slightly cheaper fee. So I think it's something that's going to run on for a few more weeks.
- [45:18]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Let's wrap this up because, you know, let's not forget spurs did win the Europa League last season.
- [45:24]
Seb Stafford-Bleu
No one's forgetting, are you?
- [45:26]
Ayo Akimwaleri
No one's forgetting, especially not me. But also. So let's not forget as well. Finished 17th. I'm definitely remembering that one in the Premier League. But this is the massive one, isn't it? You know, people are saying, what kind of job does Thomas Frank have to do here? And what. What does that really look like? And are we expecting. Seb, I'll start with you with your spurs hat on. Are we expecting spurs to really compete in the Champions League or is there a sort of understanding that. Actually, let's just enjoy this moment, Actually, league position could be really, really key for us next season.
- [45:58]
Seb Stafford-Bleu
No, I think there's definitely. We spend the podcast talking about all the different options in the team and all the things that could be done between now and the end of the transfer window. I think it's completely acceptable to think that success for spurs should be to qualify out of the Champions League group stage and to perhaps get a few good draws and knockout rounds, but that should be a minimum. I would consider anything outside of the Premier League's top seven to be bad because I don't see that 17th position as being the benchmark now and sort of everything else an improvement. It was such a ludicrous season in so many ways that it has to go back to being right, well, you know, Europa League football is a minimum. Look at the stadium, look at the quality of player, look at the quality of coach. That's fair. And then obviously the domestic cups are what they are too. You got to be competitive. And when Vinay Venkatesham came in and did that interview that was released online with Daniel Levy said, right, well, we want to compete for this, this and this. Okay, go on this then. Because if that's the aim of the club, then, you know, go do it or go, go work towards it. And so I think, you know, practically, yes, top seven Champions League knockout rounds, but also this sense that there is growth here and there is a growing level of competition everywhere, all across the board, because that's what a successful club looks like and that's supposed to be the aim. And also fundamentally, that's what Tottenham fans were sold when they opened the new stadium. That's what it was supposed to be. So that has to be the kind of the, the direction of movement now.
- [47:21]
Ayo Akimwaleri
I think, think, yeah, you forget about this as well, Jay, because Thomas Frank does have quite an interesting job on his side and quite an interesting leap from Brentford to going to Tottenham. There is still a huge level of expectation from this fan base as to where this club should be going. New stadium, as Seb has said, you know, hopefully some bright new football, hopefully more trophies in the bag.
- [47:42]
Jay Harris
No easy feat, mate, not at all. I think in some ways postecogli winning the Europa League has helped Frank because it means spurs are in the Champions League. The caliber of player they can attract is slightly, slightly higher. And in other ways it doesn't help him at all because if he'd gone in and spurs had lost the Europa League final and they'd finished 17th, he sort of would have had carte blanche to do whatever he want wanted this season. Now the expectations have been raised. Frank is going to be experiencing a lot of things for the first time. You know, his only previous experience of European competition is the Europa League qualifying rounds with Brndby a decade ago. So he's going to have to get used to playing twice a week in the. The Premier League. The Champions League, yes, when he was was with Brentford in the championship. 46 game league season, a couple of cup games, you're looking at 50 games, but it's not going to be the same level of intensity. He's going to have to deal with players who probably have bigger egos, higher expectations than what he did at Brentford and he was asked about this in his press conference at Brentford. He did a really good job of harnessing this underdog mentality of Brentford being just a bus stop in Hounslow. And even when they didn't perform particularly well, he'd have a way of sort of. Of reframing the narrative. I. I remember when Brentford lost to spurs last year and I think he said, oh, well, you know, our entire stadium is smaller than their biggest stand or something like that. And you suddenly think, oh, wow. Yeah, do not. Fair play, Brentford. You can't. Can't do that with Spurs. You know, I was there when Brentford were 1 nil up against Man United at Old trafford in the 91st minute and Scott McTominay scored twice and they lost 2 1. And obviously it was a. They were crushed by it. But he can explain it away. If you do that against Man United when you're spurs boss, you're not going to get away with that. You're going to be held to account. So I think there's probably going to be a few lessons he's going to learn quite quickly. He said himself that he's going to make mistakes. From what he said in the press conference on one of his first days, he sort of told the entire spurs staff that they'll lose games this year. He's like, I want you to know we'll lose games. It won't be the end of the world. It's going to happen. There are going to be hurdles on this journey, but we'll overcome them. So I quite like the fact he's very open about the fact that this is a bit of a journey, but he's not nearly going to get the same amount of time and leeway that he did at Brentford. One final thing, he didn't win any of his first seven games at Bronby. He lost eight of his first 10 at Brentford. So just be warned.
- [50:04]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Don't do this. Don't do this, Jay.
- [50:06]
Jay Harris
It might be a slow start.
- [50:07]
Seb Stafford-Bleu
You know, there's one other thing there as well. Jay is like, I think this isn't really about Thomas Frank. It's just about this. This pattern of rebuilding its first. Under normal circumstances, it's perfectly reasonable to say, like, new coach, new systems, new backroom staff, new everything. Like, you've got to give them a bit of leeway. And that is absolutely fair. The trouble is, if you're spurs and you're on a kind of every two years, you're resetting, people get bored of it. You know, this club's not an underdog. You need to start going forward quickly. And so I think he's going to have a really, really harsh context in which to operate by virtue of what the club have done previously long before he got there. So it's a really difficult job I think, and he deserves probably a little bit more patience than he will, I think. Get so it's super tricky.
- [50:51]
Ayo Akimwaleri
That's the one patience, as David Ornstein has said in previous podcasts and also the transfer window. Still a long way to go. Right gents, let's leave it there. Jay Seb, thanks so much for your insight and also thank you guys for listening as well. We'll be back with you on Friday. We'll catch you then.
- [51:08]
Jay Harris
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavrou and Jay Beale. The executive producer was Aidy Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free. Search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC podcast is an athletic media company production.
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The Athletic
The Athletic.
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Ayo Akimwaleri
Really?
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High five everybody.
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