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- [00:00]
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- [01:48]
Ayo Akimolere
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, IO Akim Walere. Chelsea are exploring a deal to appoint Xabi alone Alonso as head coach. So could he bring calm to the chaos at Stamford Bridge? All right, in with us for this one. We've got David Ornstein. We've also got Keris Jones as well. Okay, David, you broke the news on the Athletic on Chelsea's interesting Xabi Alonso. Give us a little bit of insight around Chelsea's managerial search.
- [02:19]
David Ornstein
Yeah, I think no sooner had Liam Rossinha departed that names were starting to float around of possible candidates for the job, whether it was informed information or logic. And that would point to the likes of Andonia Raiola leaving Bournemouth at the end of this season, of Oliver Glasner leaving Crystal palace, of Marco Silva, who is out of contract at Fulham at the end of this season with no news on a potential renewal. Other names like Felipe Luis, formerly of Flamengo and a previous Chelsea player, he's been in Europe speaking to European clubs, so. So that was another one in the mix. I think Chelsea had considered him previously for the Strasbourg job when Liam Rossinha left, but so too in that ether was Xabi Alonso because he's available and he's very high level. Immediately the sense that many of us got was if Chelsea could get somebody like this, it would be really impressive. And if we fast forward to now, yeah, now understanding is that Chelsea are exploring a deal for Xabi Alonso, it would appear that he is at the forefront of their thoughts right now. The information we have is that Xabi Alonso would be open to this possibility. Though nothing is done yet. Iriola is definitely a strong contender in his own right. And it's interesting because they're represented by the same agency, so that's an element to this as well. And the process continues. I would expect, you know, to hear news in, in. In the next days, weeks, obviously, as everybody knows, because Chelsea want to make an appointment as soon as they can, but it needs to be the right one, not a quick one. Obviously, given what they've been through now. Many of us feel that they can't afford to get this wrong after what happened with Rocinha, how it ended with Enzo Maresca, completely different cases. What's gone before with Pochettino and Graham Potter, etc since the not so new ownership came to Stamford Bridge in 2022. But let's see if they can get this over the line with Alonso because it really would be a fascinating appointment.
- [04:22]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, it would be. Simon Johnson on the Athletic Keris wrote that what this dress room needs is someone that can command instant respect from the moment they walk into the room. I mean, come on, Xabi Alonso, we saw what he did at Leverkusen going an entire season unbeaten. You know of his credentials as a player. Champions League winner, World cup winner, Euros winner. I think 11 major trophies in his career as a player. Is this the aura, is this the clout that these Chelsea players need to get them to perform well?
- [04:55]
Kerris Jones
Yeah, I think his playing career and what he achieved with Leverkusen should definitely command respect and kind of on that basis he'll be off to a better start than Liam Rosenheur. I think many people felt that he didn't really have the basis and the stature to command that sort of authority over the dressing room. But I think there's a couple of counterpoints to that that are interesting to consider. Obviously what happened at Real Madrid where the dressing room weren't seemingly fully united behind him, that shouldn't be overlooked. Although of course we know that real can be a different level in terms of the dressing room dynamics and politics. I also think that a lot of this just depends on how an individual melds with a group of players. It's not like when Enzo Maresca arrived at Chelsea, he was a sort of managerial juggernaut with tons of trophies to his name, but it's clear that, you know, a lot of players really bonded with him and he really won their respect. And regardless of the fact that it ended for him at Chelsea, a lot of those players really enjoyed playing under him. So it's not just a matter of how many trophies of coach has won as a player and as a manager so far. The individual comes into this as well. And I think that's why Chelsea really just need to do their due diligence with Xabi Alonso or whoever else they're considering and think about and also think with the squad as well and with the senior players in the squad, who do we think is going to fit this group of players best is going to be able to set the standards they need, but also win their respect without kind of earning any resentment from them. And that comes down to more than just, you know, their individual trophy cabinet.
- [06:29]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, it's a really good point, Karrasmakes. David, is it about aura? Is it about having all those trophies in the background? Because is it too simplistic of us to say, yeah, he's won loads of trophies elsewhere, look at the vast experience. But realistically, it's about getting on with this set of players. If Enzo Maresca ends up taking over Pep Guardiola, he's not a trophy laden coach manager going to a team that knows how to win trophies. But that is still a possibility for Manchester City.
- [06:57]
David Ornstein
Yeah, there are not many Pep Guardiolas out there, Luis Enrique's and so on. And every club that is is having to make appointments. Now if you can't get hold of those, the Thomas Tuchel's of this world also, then you do have to take some risk and gamble and you try and mitigate as far as possible. And that's what Manchester City will be doing if Maresca takes over should Pep Guardiola depart. And that's somebody they know extremely well from his time there before Xabi Alonso, if he comes to Chelsea, you know, to many of us that that would be box office. It's not just his work at Leverkusen. You know, he, he, he bided his time at Sociedad B and didn't take the decision to leave there lightly. He was met, he wasn't in a rush in his career and he didn't need to be given his, his playing success. And then Leverkusen was obviously fantastic. Real Madrid and we'll come onto it, for a number of reasons on both sides, him and the club did not go well. But when you look at the options out there, and you may turn around and say, like saying Raiola, for example, might be a better coach in many people's minds than Xabi Alonso at this moment, certainly he's Premier League ready. But just the magnitude of the achievements of Xabi Alonso so far in terms of Leverkusen, the magnitude of the club he's worked at and the dressing room he has been a part of at Real Madrid, even though it didn't go so well, I definitely think the playing achievements will command respect if he goes into Chelsea, which is largely young and also quite a complicated dressing room. If you look at some of the public comments that have been made by like Svenzo Fernandez and Mark Cucurella, the tumultuous few years they've had in terms of different faces on the playing side, on the coaching and sporting side, and also at director and executive level, it's been a bit of a roller coaster there. And so you need a calming presence. I think Chelsea's criteria has been that they kind of wanted somebody that had either Premier League experience or big club experience in a coaching environment. He certainly has big club experience. He doesn't have Premier League managerial experience, but he does have Premier League playing experience. And so immediately when reports suggested that they were interested in Jabby Alonso, I did think it was potentially a really good fit. Of the few who you feel could try and get this moving in the right direction and could work well there. And many people sort of quite flippantly say, no coach will want to work there. That's just nonsense. Coaches want these jobs. Chelsea's a massive club. It's got a storied recent history, in particular in terms of trophy winning ability and expectations. And somebody, as we've said with Manchester United and I don't know previously with Arsenal, some years ago, somebody's going to get this right and there's nothing to say. Xabi Alonso, his ability to work with young players and to develop them, his footballing ideas, his body of work today. Yeah, it's not perfect by any means, but I think there would be a lot of cause for optimism there. But absolutely, like we said at the start of this answer that there is risk there, but that's pretty much the case everywhere. And there's so many more factors to this. How he would work with the sporting directors at Chelsea if he comes in the ownership, the way that they go about their recruitment and the huge change that they've had, which is ongoing. There's going to be more recruitment. It's going to have to be a very diligent process, this appointment. And it's really intriguing to see if they manage to get him. But that's only the first step. Then it's. It's how it unfolds and whether they can learn from the mistakes that have been made to this point. And there have been some highs as well in terms of a couple of trophies, one last summer and I got back into the Champions League. There's some very good talent in that squad, but there's a lot that needs to improve, evidently.
- [10:58]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. EP Caris. Another name that's been in the mix is Andoni Iriola as well as obviously Alonso and David mentioned it earlier. They both play this sort of front footed, attacking style football. Let's focus on Raiola for a minute because there's a weird irony here that if, let's say he does take the Chelsea job, he's potentially taken a Bournemouth team to Europe for the very first time. I mean, does this feel like a weird downgrade in that respect?
- [11:25]
Kerris Jones
I don't think in terms of kind of the size of the stature of the club and potentially the quality of players he's got to work with, it can't be seen as a downgrade.
- [11:33]
Ayo Akimolere
I mean, I say it with a wink in my eye, but I know Chelsea are a bigger club. I play.
- [11:36]
Kerris Jones
Yeah, I do. I do think it's very. I think we've seen that. I agree with and understand why Chelsea want to go with someone with either big club or Premier League experience. But I do think that we've seen kind of the pitfalls of trying to move from other Premier League teams to the sort of stereotypical or traditional big six clubs. It's not a smooth transition necessarily. I think, you know, Iriola, what he's done with Bournemouth has been incredibly impressive. I love watching them. I think they're a really fun team to watch. Whether it would work at Chelsea, I'm less convinced of it. I went to watch them on the weekend at Craven Kostage against Fulham. A really enjoyable game, a very intense game, a very chaotic game. Having covered Chelsea throughout this season and watched them week in, week out. The shift if Iriola wanted to implement that style, the shift that would be needed in kind of Chelsea players pressing their intensity sometimes, their ability to convert possession into chances quickly, their ability to not panic under pressure, not panic when the opposition have the ball. A lot of that would need to change and it's great to watch that style of football if the team is kind of fully committed to it and in it. I don't know that Chelsea's players necessarily would be. I think it's also important there to kind of. If we talk about Iriola and Alonso as both kind of attacking football managers, it probably does skate over a few differences in that sense. You know, Alonso focuses probably more on possession there. I would say there are more similarities in the way that he likes his teams to play to how Chelsea have been playing than perhaps there are with Iriola. So it would be, I think, less of a shift in tactical style from that sense and therefore maybe it would require a little bit less change and incomings in terms of recruitment and less of an adjustment from the squad that are already there for Alonso to come in than for Iriola.
- [13:40]
David Ornstein
This is the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimolere.
- [13:46]
Felix Salmon
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- [14:32]
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- [15:10]
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- [15:53]
Ayo Akimolere
I think it's a really interesting one David with with Iriola because you know yet another manager hot on the lips of many clubs based on what he's done at Bournemouth. But also who's to say it will be the right fit at Chelsea if he does go there? He's worked with younger players. Think about the likes of Dean Howsson etc who have gone on to great things, but it's about getting it right, isn't it? It's about getting the management, the personality, those players right and connecting it together to hopefully create something fruitful.
- [16:23]
David Ornstein
Yeah. Firstly, to echo Karas sentiments, I've been in awe of the work he's done at Bournemouth and it didn't start well and I'll come back to that in a moment. He's also had a bad spell this season too, but he's at a club that the scrutiny and the pressure is not as intense as one of the biggest clubs. And so it was the perfect move for him from Vallecano to come and cut his teeth in the biggest league in the world by most accounts and without quite the same intensity that you get elsewhere. I love Bournemouth and and I know it very well having spent a lot of years down there. It's a small stadium with a fan base with total respect that is not as expectant as, you know, your Champions League clubs, your Chelsea's of this world. Amazing how they've allowed him to work, they've backed him in the market, they got spectacular new training ground. It's been a beautiful success story but that step up is unforgiving and we've Seen many who have succumbed to the pitfalls and some who have. Have succeeded. You saw Mauricio Pochettino, much maligned when he arrived at Southampton to replace Nigel Atkinson, move to Tottenham. He did fantastically well. But for, for all of those, you. You've got the, the counter argument as well. I think he has all of the credentials to succeed at a club like Chelsea, equally a Manchester United. In. In. If you look at his game model and style and philosophy and tactical approach, when he spoke to Tottenham Hotspur, I think it was before Thomas Frank was appointed. He was interviewed by them. I. I don't know if this was a specific concern of Tottenham, whether it was him who didn't want to go to Tottenham. We don't know the ins and outs of it, but a lot of people in the industry said, you know, it's all well and good, him playing his counter, attacking style and throwing everybody forward at Bournemouth, if it works, amazing. If it doesn't, you can see the goal and nobody cares that much. Go to one of these clubs and you'll be absolutely slaughtered if you get caught on the counterattack. And, and if you go seven games on without a victory and if you have a slow start to your reign. And so my only reservation, and it's not the fault of Andonia Raiola, is if he steps up from, from Bournemouth to Chelsea, I'm sure he will be able to implement a tactical approach. His ideas, his philosophy, his style of football. But how long does it take? How patient will the supporters, the hierarchy, the media be if it doesn't start well, if he encounters dips like predecessors there have been. And that's where. And this isn't really fair, nor is it quantifiable, but one of those bigger figures in world football almost keeps the players and the club and the fans with them in barren spells and then it's up to their coaching ability to, to pull the club through. And I don't know yet if Iriola will want that or whether it's right for him. And it's very interesting that Crystal palace are strongly keen on him. Clearly they would like to appoint him and evidently he's considering it, whether he takes it or not. Let's wait and see. Now, the Bilbao interest in him seems to have been put to one side, because I think they're moving forward with Edin Terzich. But Iriola, as we know it, does have opportunities on the continent as well. I don't think he's going to rush. I think he. He would strongly consider them and pick the right place for him to take the next step in his career. Even if that surprises people that it's not the biggest step immediately. Maybe you take another one of these jobs like a Crystal palace and then in a few years time or when the time's right, you'll be even better equipped to go to that next step. And so, yeah, sorry for the sort of convoluted answer, but I think. I think there's a lot more to this. And if a job like Chelsea or Manchester United doesn't go the way of an Iriola and he says take a. Takes a Crystal palace or takes more time out or goes for a job, maybe you're not expecting. I don't think that's any mark against him. I actually think it's pretty impressive and it shows somebody that will take the right step for him. Not necessarily the quick or obvious one.
- [20:39]
Ayo Akimolere
Let's talk about the Chelsea fan base, Caris, especially with the prospect of Xabi Alonso signing. I love looking at the comment section on the athletic pieces and there's one on Simon Johnson's piece at the bottom says this seems way too competent for the. For this ownership. Let's see if they get it across the line or they just want people to know they are exploring it. Is that jubilation potentially that perhaps the ownership are looking like they've got something that Chelsea fans might finally like?
- [21:12]
Kerris Jones
Yeah, I think that the reaction that I've seen from Chelsea's fans has been largely kind of positive towards this. I don't think, you know, there's the ev. Kind of comparison to Rafa Benitez when he came into Chelsea and Chelsea fans didn't really allow him to forget about his links to Liverpool. But I think that's. That's a different. A different time, a different person. And perhaps some of the comments that Benitez had made before he joined Chelsea, the way they were perceived, did not help him. Whereas I'm not aware of anything like that with Alonso. But I do think there is a concern among Chelsea fans echoed in that comment you just read out that they are genuinely worried that some managers would not want to come to the club and would not want to work in the current structure. As David said earlier, I think it's really difficult to try and second guess what managers are thinking there. Chelsea is still a huge club with huge stature, some really talented players on the books and an environment where you can go in and coach and win trophies if you do it well. The worry is that the last few coaches have not been able to do that for various reasons, people will be looking at the way that Liam Rosinha's time at the club went and thinking, perhaps that's not a very attractive job, but we don't live in football managers minds. There is so much more that goes into these decisions than we know. I think the main concern that I've seen from fans is whether Alonso would want the job rather than whether they would want him, which is, you know, we don't know what he's thinking and we'll see.
- [22:45]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, I do think, you know, the bigger question is what is it that ownership are looking for? If you look at the track record of previous managers, you know, especially Rossinia, in fact, Kerris is that, you know, from the outside looking in, it's someone who knows the company, understands the structure, all that kind of stuff. But inevitably he's now parted ways with Chelsea. So, you know, what do you think the owner ship are looking for? Or does it feel like they're going to have to move in a new direction from where we've seen them over the last few years?
- [23:11]
Kerris Jones
I think that's a really good question. I think the, the sort of mood music coming out of Chelsea in the weeks and even in the kind of hours since they parted ways with Rocinha is that there is a bit of acknowledgment that maybe a change needs to be made. They do, I think, want someone with that Premier League experience or big club experience. There's a, an acknowledgement that perhaps they needed a different figure than what Rossini had brought in order to command the respect of the dressing room. That's not to say that they kind of put that on him. I think they were impressed with his application, his work ethic and the way that he tried to do things while he was at the club. But between him and this squad, it clearly didn't work. Or between him and elements of the squad, it clearly didn't work. So I think what they are looking for is first and foremost someone who can unite the dressing room behind them. And then I think from there it's looking at whether that necessitates potentially a bit of flexibility from the club on, say, their approach to recruitment, the footballing style they want. You know, if you decide that this coach is the man for you, does that mean that you might have to flex your ideas about the football that you've been wanting to play, or the way that you've been wanting to recruit for your squad in order to attract that person? I think that's the question that we're going to kind of see unfold in who they appoint, in what that person says about what they're hoping to do at the club and then first and foremost in their transfer business over the summer.
- [24:41]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. Honestly appreciate your time as always, Keris, and thanks for joining us on the pod today.
- [24:45]
Kerris Jones
Thanks, guys.
- [24:53]
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- [25:24]
Felix Salmon
This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. This is Felix Salmon from Slate Money and I'm here to tell you about Apple Card. Even as a seasoned traveller, things can still get stressful. Which is why I use AppleCard on my international trips. And with 2% daily cashback on every purchase with Apple Pay, I'm actually earning daily cash as I travel. Instead of coming home feeling like I've drained my bank account, I come back with cash back I can put toward my next trip. Applying the Wallet app on iPhone Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and more at AppleCo. AppleCard benefits.
- [26:09]
David Ornstein
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David Ornstein
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- [26:44]
David Ornstein
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimolere.
- [26:49]
Ayo Akimolere
Well, next, some breaking news on another managerial move. Well, potentially joining us now is our Manchester United correspondent, Laurie Whitwell. David called it earlier this year. The managerial market has exploded. Laurie, you've got an Update on the Athletic on Michael Carrick's position at Old Trafford.
- [27:07]
Laurie Whitwell
Yeah, it's been the big question, I think, as we approach the end of this season, with Carrick doing so well in interim charge, will he stay on? You know, he's qualified the team for the Champions League. Will he get the chance to actually take them into that competition and beyond? And the, I think expectation amongst people on the ground at Carrington for the last couple of weeks at least, has been that he would get that chance. But obviously, you know, the decision makers at the club will have their own ideas, headed up, really by Sir Jim Ratcliffe, who is the minority shareholder, but has the majority of control in terms of actually actioning the decision. So, yeah, the detail that I have now is that the people on the ground. So Chief executive Omar Berrada, Director of Football Jason Wilcox, have decided to make that recommendation to Ratcliffe and the Glazer family, who will have an input. But it is more Ratcliffe's decision ultimately to appoint Michael Carrick as the permanent head coach. And so obviously it will be Ratcliffe's decision to take that advice or not. But the expectation, anticipation is that that will proceed and then that will pave the way for contract talks to take place and negotiations ahead. No doubt. There is a little bit, I suppose, of a deadline, so to speak, because you have Sunday's match against Nottingham Forest where you'd expect Carrick to say something maybe after the game and therefore to have that kind of clarity, have that authority, have that momentum, would be great. But obviously these things can take time, so, yeah, let's see how that goes. But kind of major development, because we've been wondering, haven't we, will they look around? They have been, I think, exploring different alternatives and we can perhaps get into those in this conversation. But ultimately, I think the. For various reasons, Carrick has been decided as the guy that they want to continue with.
- [28:51]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, there's another deadline, David, in that the World Cup's on its way and, you know, you'd probably like to get a manager in place or a head coach in place in case, you know, he needs to get new players in and recruitment and all that kind of stuff. So timing of this could be quite essential.
- [29:05]
David Ornstein
Yeah, that's the case for many clubs, and it's an ideal scenario. And I can't go back on what I've said on this podcast before that, you know, waiting for World cup coaches is perhaps too late for some clubs, but that's not a hard and fast rule if you get knocked out of the World cup early or if you've been negotiating and planning with a coach, whatever league or club you are and national team you're talking about in the months preceding the World cup and then you take them afterwards, it's not the most dramatic thing to do. So, so whether it be a, a twist in an Ancelotti, a Pochettino, a Tuchel Nagelsmann and so on, and maybe we will see that with some clubs, maybe not Dick Advocate coming to one of the big clubs as the World Cup's oldest ever coach, but you know what I mean. However, if you can get somebody in before then, which it would seem some, a club like Chelsea are trying to do, that's fantastic because it means you can get to know everybody as soon as possible, get across the recruitment plans, squad situations and be in position for the first day of preseason, which a club like Bournemouth have managed to pull off impressively. Let's see how Marco Rosa does. And it's, it's quite extraordinary that they may get Champions League football and then the, the coach that got them there won't take them into it. But, you know, Rosa now has two months to work with Bournemouth behind the scenes on every element and he'll be well known by everybody inside the club, pretty much. So that when they set foot on the grass for the start of their preparations for next season, they're ready to rumble. And naturally, you know, Manchester United will have that among many factors. Laurie pointed to others they, they would have considered that of course, like, that's, that's why there are processes and, and you know, it's impossible not to be impressed by Michael Carrick and have admiration for him. But the reality is he's not been in this position before. He's not managed a club, Manchester United stature, nor coached in Champions League football, managed a transfer window of this magnitude juggled the multiple competitions. You know, it was only at Middlesbrough that he worked before and Manchester United as an interim. So when names like An Iriola and Glasner and Apocettino and whoever else has been linked, Tuchel and Unai Emery and so on and so forth, Luis Enrique, you totally understand that. And, and if some of those biggest names were available and were not coaching at the World cup or were not tied down and, and planning to sign new contracts with their club, it wouldn't have surprised me if Manchester United had gone for one of them ahead of Michael Carrick. And that's no disrespect to Carrick, but the reality is completely different. Carrick's done very well. He's already in the building, he's popular. It is quite cost effective and I don't want to dismiss that. Carrick will have some negotiating to do and. And his representatives will want to get the best possible deal and a suitable one for him. But you're not, you know, paying 20 million pounds or euros to get Luis Enrique out of PSG and then pay an enormous salary and his staff, and then you've got to fund a transfer market as well. So it works in many ways. And there's a lot of popularity that there will also be some concerns about this too. And people will say, United have been here before with Ole Gunnar Solskjaer. They will counter that things are different this time round. There's nothing to say Michael Carrick won't be successful and there's loads of goodwill for him to be. It'd be really interesting to see if this does get over the line, what length of contract Manchester United give, what stipulations, what exits for both sides. And the cynics out there will say, look, we're going to be in this position again in 8 months time, 12 months, 16 months, whatever. But that's just pure speculation. And it's come to the point where the sort of general feeling in football, not among everyone, but the general feeling is that it would have been really harsh not to give this to Carrick, given his achievements, and that would appear the direction of travel now, but we haven't got any sort of final concrete clarity on it just yet.
- [33:12]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, One of the things we've been talking about on this pod before you arrived, Laurie, was this idea that, you know, what do the leadership want? You know, there is another universe here that Manchester United go for someone who has got vast experience winning big, big trophies in that respect. But from a fan base perspective, I can see there's a connection here. The Carrick's already got you look at what he's done with Manchester United so far. It feels kind of right, doesn't it?
- [33:39]
Laurie Whitwell
I think so. And obviously that is in the special circumstances of an interim role where there isn't European football where you've had time to prepare from his point of view each week for these matches and he's put players in the positions that I think most people feel suit them in terms of the formation switch From Ruben Amarin's back three, putting Bruno Fernandes back as the number 10, restoring Kobbie Mainoo to the starting lineup alongside Casemiro. They all sort of make sense. Maybe Patrick Dawgu on the left wing. I know he's been injured for a little bit of time, but that was something of a Carrick flourish, maybe. Although Darren Fletcher also did that in his one Premier League game in caretaker charge. So there's options there a little bit for what Carrick has done. But I think he's brought a sense of stability, connection certainly with the players in terms of the communication skills that he's got. And then, as you're right, Ayo, in terms of the fans, I think fans always would love to see somebody of that heritage who knows what it is to win the European cup with Manchester United and come multiple Premier League titles, to then come back into the dugout and be the guy to try and restore them to that kind of pedigree. Yeah, it'll be a big challenge for him because you've got, you know, Middlesbrough as the. As the background to it, although he was, you know, a coach under ole Gunnar Solskjaer and Jose Mourinho before that. So he's had a good breeding ground, I think, for this job and obviously knows the club inside out, which I think is. I know it can get over said. But, you know, understanding United, the scale of it, the kind of different politics at play, the intricacies that. The kind of egos that play as sometimes having been able to manage that is a big thing. So, yeah, I think they, you know, justifiably so. Could. Could they get somebody like Carlo Ancelotti or Thomas Tuchel if that's who they wanted? Luis Enrique probably is the big one, right. If. If they could have been able to persuade him from Paris Saint Germain, but as we, you know, reported already, all indications are that he'll sign a new deal at psg. You know, I think he would probably be the one with that incredible CV that you could go, wow, okay, if United can get him, he would be considered best in class. But that's not to sort of disparage Carrick because you can do things differently. Right. And you don't know where United are at the moment. Is he perhaps the right person to be guiding that, you know, that stability, you know, re entering them into the Champions League and balancing all that out and obviously his coaching staff. That'll be interesting. You know, what the makeup of his coaching staff, should this all come to pass ultimately be. I think Steve Holland's obviously been a crucial figure with his experience from England and Chelsea in the background. Well, actually, he's been quite forefront in certain matches. You know, him and Carrick on the touchline discussing substitutions, baby. And tactical decisions. So, yeah, I think there's a. There'll be a satisfaction, I think, amongst United fans given what Carrick's done, but I don't think there'll be a sense of this is absolutely going to work, guaranteed. You know, I think they. I think most people are appreciative of the sense of this is something we're going to have a little bit of hope around because of what he's done so far. And as. As David said, I speak to so many people in the industry that were saying, you have to give it to Michael because of what he's done in this period, because the risk, I suppose, and it shouldn't just be about optics, but the risk is if you give it to somebody else, it doesn't work out in the first sort of ten weeks or so, people will just be saying, well, why did you get rid of Carrick? So he's done well in this period. Let's see. You never know. It could work brilliantly.
- [36:56]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. I do wonder, though, David, what is different now with Manchester United compared to when ole Gunnar Solskjaer was there? Because those comparisons actually will be made. You know, they've gone this route before. X Player has done well in the interim, but is he the one to take them to the next level? And I do think perhaps a much more settled playing squad, perhaps much behind the scenes at Manchester United feels a little bit more intact now.
- [37:19]
Kerris Jones
Perhaps.
- [37:20]
David Ornstein
Yeah, there are certain similarities and there are many differences, I think. And Laurie will know this better than me, but, you know, when you see how they performed at Sunderland the weekend, Leeds United at home, Newcastle away, there are causes for concern there. And listen, we don't know that this is going to be the end outcome, but if it is the direction of travel, it's not been perfect. And I hear Manchester United fans asking, what is the team's style and identity? And that has chimed with reports of La Cany Raiola, who has a very clear style and identity. Results undoubtedly have been really good and he has achieved Manchester United's aim to qualify for the Champions League. There was no guarantee that that got him the job, by the way. That was never said. And so that's why there'll need to be talks and conversations. There'll be many factors. Is this right for Michael Carrick now? He's a big voice in this. Laurie is right. There's a lot of feeling, I think, inside Manchester United, we shouldn't just say the industry as well inside Manchester United, that Carrick couldn't have really done anymore. And a crucial thing here is that, that you know, there will be understanding for the hierarchy if they do this, because so many people have said they should. It's not like I can imagine people turning around if it doesn't go right and say ah, we. We said that was a disastrous idea. You should ridiculous appointment in the first place. No, that's not what people are saying. And that probably buys the hierarchy some time in this as well, which I think is quite an important factor because you know, if they made an unpopular appointment, you kind of feel they'd be up against it from the start and this appointment would have to prove everybody wrong. But that's not really the case. There's not huge doubt and massive point in this. You don't know it's the right time for Manchester United to have an Enrique. I know he's an incredible coach, you know, and his work speaks for itself. Are some of these guys the cherry on the cake? You know, is it right now for Manchester United to build in this next chapter with Carrick and maybe there will be a change further down the line and they would like to think he lifts them and maybe he continues or maybe they go on to somebody else when the squad is ready. To answer your specific question, Solskjaer did well. It's with time it's kind of being seen as better than it felt in the moment in terms of the. The league finishes in particular. But I do think the squad has been slightly better built now and I think the recruitment has improved. When you look at Mburmo and Kunyar and Lammens, you know, some of the club decisions on recruitment appear to be paying off, which wasn't really the case before. It was almost derided. Or that they had given too much authority to the manager in the transfer choices. That was certainly an accusation leveled at them in the Erik 10 hag era. Maybe a bit. Ruben Amarim too. We even saw it back to David Moyes with Fellaini and so on. They've clearly tried to get away from that and it's not been an overwhelming success. Xerxe is not really impacting so much. Maybe a Dorgoo, but by and large I think they're moving in the right direction in the market. Some of the targets you hear about make total sense. Therefore it feels that there is the basis of something for Carrick to work with that was slightly better perhaps than Solskjaer at the time. But I get your point and I would also say that Ole Gunnar Solskjaer didn't do too badly in the role, so there is sense to this if indeed it happens.
- [40:53]
Ayo Akimolere
So I guess the managerial decision is almost done. Does this now give Manchester United some breathing room, Laurie, to start really thinking about who else they can bring into this squad to bolster it ahead of next season?
- [41:05]
Laurie Whitwell
Yeah, big questions ahead. I mean, they've been sort of, you know, pondering these decisions for the last sort of few weeks, well, months, really. I mean, they've known that Casemiro is departing since, you know, well, probably last summer, really, but January was when it got announced to us all, and so replacing him is the primary objective, really. And we've seen all the names, but I think focusing their attentions on midfield and two really midfielders coming in, maybe a third, depending on if they can promote from the academy or not, depending on who they are able to bring in and what that might cost. But, yeah, I think it just brings a sense of clarity to who these players will be playing for. That's a question that many of them will ask when they're having these kind of negotiations. I'm sure the background work has been going on in this time anyway, so little indications might have been sent there, but I think it does just allow them to go forward with a very clear agenda for what the team's going to look like, who's going to be around the staff, and obviously with Carrick at the forefront of that, if, as we say, this all gets ratified. Yeah, I think it just accelerates the process, really, because, you know, we've got the World cup coming up. Can they get somebody in before that starts? I think that'd be the objective, wouldn't it, to kind of, you know, get that sense of momentum and have that clarity within the squad and know what your team is starting to shape up like once the summer window closes.
- [42:28]
Ayo Akimolere
David, before you go, we have to talk about Jose Mourinho to Real Madrid. I'm just fascinated where we are with that one because we saw that dramatic press conference with Florentino Perez. Very bizarre. Actually. Mourinho seems to be Perez's favorite at this moment in time.
- [42:45]
David Ornstein
Yeah, we revealed a few weeks ago now, didn't we, that Jose Mourinho is. Is the choice of Florentino Perez to become the next head coach of Real Madrid. Nothing has given us any suggestion that that's any different now than it was then. In fact, it's probably hardened and crystallized in and among mess at Real Madrid Fight Club, as some have described it. Things haven't been good on or off the pitch. And, and Florentino Perez clearly pinned his colors to the mast on Tuesday with a, an extraordinary press conference that he sort of said I'm not leaving and he sort of talked about how, how good his health is and seemed determined to personally put things right. And, and our understanding throughout has been that this decision will be made by him. So if Jose Mourinho is his, his preference, then you would imagine, despite any resistance, and I think there is some differing opinion inside the club, then it will probably end up being the person that he wants in. The latest information I have is that this is at an advanced stage. I think it's likely to happen, but it will still require some direct conversations between Florentino Perez and Jose Mourinho. We reported a few days ago that obviously conversations were continuing between Mourinho's representative in this, George Mendez, and Real Madrid. But I think that direct dialogue is, is going to be needed in a not dissimilar way to what happened between Florentino Perez and Carlo Ancelotti. Maybe it was the same as in Dean Zidane and I know you've got the likes of Jose Sanchez and others there, but, but we know who the boss is at Real Madrid and, and you know, I, I don't know if Jose Mourinho wants to wait until the Benfica season has completely finished, which is on, on Saturday, before ramping this up. We know about the clause in his contract and so time is kind of of the essence to get it sorted, but I, I, I imagine it can get sorted pretty swiftly. Benfica will be across this situation and the direction of travel is clear that the expectation, with nothing set in stone is, is that Jose Mourinho is going to return for a second stint as Real Madrid head coach. And let the fireworks commence.
- [45:05]
Ayo Akimolere
Brilliant gents, appreciate your time as always. Thanks for joining us, Laurie and also David, thanks for your input and Keris as well, who joined us earlier too. And also thank you guys for joining us. We'll catch you soon.
- [45:18]
David Ornstein
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producer producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroo and Jay Beal with editing by Paul Iliff and Nick Thompson. The executive producer is Adie Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows. Search for the Athletic wherever you get your podcasts. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
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