Loading summary
Transcript56 lines
- [00:02]
Ayo Akinwaleere
This episode is brought to you by Love Hurts. Ki Hui Kwan has had quite a career, from childhood roles in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom and the Goonies to a recent Academy Award win for Everything Everywhere all at Once. But now Kee finally stars as a leading man in the film Love Hurts. Love Hurts is the perfect date night movie with its mix of over the top action comedy and a ton of heart. Love Hurts Only at theaters February 7th. This episode is brought to you by Allstate. Some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking Allstate First. Like you know to check the date of the big game first before you accidentally buy tickets on your 20th wedding anniversary and have to spend the next 20 years of your marriage making up for it. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate Savings. Vary terms apply. Allstate Fire and Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. You know what's smart? Enjoying a fresh gourmet meal at home that you didn't have to cook meat. Factor your loophole in the laws of mealtime. Chef crafted meals delivered with a tap, ready in just two minutes. You know what's even smarter? Treating yourself without cheating. Your goals factor is dietitian approved, chef prepared and you plated. Pretty smart, huh? Refresh your routine and eat smart with factor. Learn more@factormeals.com the Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [01:39]
David Ornstein
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akim Mullere. The January transfer window is officially shut. We've seen Marcus Rashford move to Aston Villa and Manchester City have finally got the midfielder they need in Nico Gonzalez. But who were the real winners and losers in this window? Okay with us today in the studio we have the one and only David Ornstein, the Athletics football correspondent. Hopefully well slept and well rested, but I doubt it. Plus our senior writer, Rory Smith as well. David, I said it just there. Have you slept? Are you well rested or you just banging it out till it's time to go home?
- [02:21]
Rory Smith
I was going to say sleep is for wimps and is overrated, but it really isn't underrated. And anybody that doesn't have it is stupid. So I'm definitely stupid. They say the best never rest. I'm not the best, but I don't rest and trying to be better. But it's been a really mad January transfer window. Like not as much happens on the sort of outside that sort of comes to fruition than goes on on the inside in terms of the negotiations and the attempts to do deals and make things happen. And when you're in the privileged position that you speak to a lot of people involved in it, you kind of become privy to all of that or much of it. And therefore you go through the rigmarole and the roller coaster ride yourself. And so a lot of people are saying, oh, not much happened this January. And I'm like, ah, you don't know what we've been going through. And that's all part of the journalistic process. And many of these things, you're making your checks and you expend a huge amount of energy on stuff that doesn't happen. And then you're thinking, I've got no energy left for when stuff does. And then when stuff does, it's extremely competitive because this media world and landscape around it or football transfers has just gone wild. So, yeah, it's time for a bit of relaxation. Tlc, but not until we've finished this pod.
- [03:45]
David Ornstein
There we go. I need you the best. Never rest, Rory. Any motivational phrases like David, because this is a really interesting time. And I. I often wonder which is the best window, which gets us most excited, January or the one over the summer? Because, you know, January brought us the likes of Coutinho, that brought us the likes of Aubameyang.
- [04:05]
Tom Harris
Yeah. And Van Dijk was a January one. So just before January 1st. Yeah. I think generally the summer is the. What most clubs now seem to have worked out that you spend in January if you're desperate. And Dave is completely right. There's a lot of stuff, as he knows much better than I do. There's a lot of stuff that happens behind the scenes of clubs thinking about stuff. But it always feels to me as though the bar is higher in January for. Do I actually want to do this?
- [04:30]
Rory Smith
Yeah.
- [04:31]
Tom Harris
And that doesn't make it easier as journalists, because, I mean, I get to kind of pretend I'm too big for it. The. I'm not as privy to all of that side of it as David is. But as journalists, it doesn't change the challenge because you still. All of that stuff could still happen. You never know when a club's gonna go, yeah, all right, let's do it. And I'm not sure, to be honest. I would have. I would have foreseen Manchester City spending close to 200 million quid in the. In the January transfer window. That still feels like a. That is a major outlay, even for a team with City's resources. But you still have to check Even the ones that don't happen, you still have to be across all the things that might happen. But it does feel to me as though most clubs now have accepted that if you. If you can get away with not doing something in January, that's probably the smart play that I think we've seen over the course of the last maybe 10 years. Premier League teams are a lot cleverer than they used to be. They're not. They're not as kind of enthralled to the money they have available. A lot of the competitive edges in. In working out when you spend and how you spend, rather than just spending for the sake of it. And that has made January a bit quieter, I think. There are only six deals between Premier League clubs this month, which isn't very many. Most of those were loans and a lot of them were to West Ham. But the. Yeah, the vast majority of teams, I think, look at January as. It's a line you hear a lot like, if an opportunity arises, they'll get involved, but if an opportunity doesn't arise, they're not looking to get involved.
- [05:49]
David Ornstein
Aurora brings me on to my next point, really. Citi. And also that strategy of when to stick or twist or hold off till the summer. City have done a bit of business in the last couple of weeks and, you know, let's start with the deal for Nico Gonzalez, Former La Masia graduate, got him from Porto for a fee in the region of about £50 million. I mean, midfielder. Is it as easy as just saying because of what's happened to Rodri, they thought, wow, we need to get a midfielder.
- [06:16]
Rory Smith
Well, briefly, I'd just like to say I feel a sense of vindication today because normally journalists get battered for saying things are going to happen before a window and it doesn't come to fruition. Normally involving Arsenal and a striker, you know, destroy us now. But so with City, we sat here together, we were on the pod saying that they are expected throughout the industry to be the most active because of their footballing situation and the sort of disappointing campaign they've had so far. And also their financial results had come out recently. They had kept powder dry in the summer and were ready to rumble in terms of the 68 position. That was one of the key positions that we talked about. So I think they wanted to improve in the attacking areas because they hadn't replaced Julian Alvarez. They wanted to strengthen at the back. I think they knew maybe it was going to be coming to an end for Kyle Walker and they did need some reinforcements there. John Stones, Ruben Diaz have spent such a lot of time out injured Nathan Ake as well. They've played auxiliary left backs but six, eight post Rodri and, and we know they tend not to lose when he's in the team. That's an understatement. But it was a dilemma. From the conversations I had around City is like what do you do? Do you bring in an older stop gap just until Rodri's back, but then they're bringing another older player into the team. The squad is already aging. Look at that age profile. There's a lot of rebuilding that needs to be done at Manchester City, especially in that area with KE De Bruyne and Ilkay Gundogan. So that's not an ideal situation. But you do get some good players on the market of that ilk, such as an Ilkay Gundogan previously. Or do you go younger? But that's going to take a lot more money and consideration because it's, it's going to be a. Probably a permanent transfer because there's not going to be any good players of a younger caliber who are available for loan in the January market. And then if that player is too similar to Rodri, what happens to that player when Rodri comes back? So you need to get a slightly different player for that role. And they had a number of options. We reported on Douglas Luis which would have maybe been a hybrid of all of those possibilities. Premier League experience, not too old, not too young. Potential loan. If Juventus were willing to do so, City would have done it. Loan, no obligation to buy. Juventus wanted a sale. I think think there were some whispers among Premier League clubs that something might have been possible with him right up until the deadline. But it, it didn't materialize ultimately and, and then the name Nico Gonzalez came to the fore and it made sense on a number of levels. The sixth eight people have compared him stylistically and physically. Stature wise to. To Rodri. He's Spanish. There was some interest from City in the past. His father had worked at the club he used to play for Barcelona, Pep Guardiola in the hierarchy. And ultimately they pretty efficiently. I think there was a spanner thrown in the works when Galeno suddenly moved from Porto to Saudi Arabia. And would they still be willing? Exactly. He's a lovely player in his own right. Would they still be willing to part with. With Gonzalez? Well, ultimately City had already ramped up conversations. Jorge Mendez, the so called super agent, heavily involved. City know him well. Porto know him extremely well. And a deal was done in around the 60 million euros mark, which was the value of his release clause. We don't know if it activated or paid in a different way to structure the payments, long term contracts. Medical was done over in Portugal because it was deadline day and all pretty slick in the end. He sent a nice video message, speaks good English and I think City fans will be boosted by that arrival. So everybody's sort of wax lyrical about Mamouche looks an exciting attacking option. Kusanov a lot of intrigue about that. Victor Rice, a lot of excitement about his potential for the future. But maybe Nico Gonzalez will prove to be the gem and my goodness, if you saw them on Sunday at the Emirates, they needed somebody in the middle of the park and he arrives ready to rumble.
- [10:15]
David Ornstein
Okay, well let's find out a little bit more about Nico Gonzalez. Here's our data writer Tom Harris.
- [10:20]
Jacob Tanswell
Midfield has been a glaring weakness for Manchester City this season, particularly on the defensive transition. The likes of Mateo Kovacic, Ilkay Gundogan, Bernardo Silva, sometimes Rico Lewis has been in there, haven't really been able to win their duels consistently enough or cover the ground on the counter attack and stop the opposition from driving right through the heart of a team really. So nico Gonzalez, at 23 years old, he brings a bit of energy, a bit of physicality into an age in midfield. He's come through the Barcelona academy, La Masia, so obviously he has that kind of technical ability that we're used to seeing from graduates there. He can control the tempo of a game and he's usually very assured on the ball in tight spaces. But I think what we've seen from Gonzalez of the last couple of seasons, he was first on loan at Valencia and he's recently been at Porto, is that he's using his, his frame to, to better effect. He's, he's quite tall. He's a kind of slender, rangy kind of midfielder who's, who's very good at striding forward. He's good at timing his runs into the box and we're seeing record attacking output from him this season at Porto. And yeah, he brings the legs. He's, he's a good kind of defensive midfielder who can latch onto you and use those long legs to good effect in the middle of a pitch for tackles and interceptions. So you can definitely see the logic as to why City have targeted someone like Gonzalez. And him being so young as well, bodes well for the future.
- [11:43]
David Ornstein
Yeah, thanks Tom. I mean Rory, really interesting strategy from City in general. This window they spent big, close enough to 200 million pounds, I think it's around 180 million pounds, while the Premier League as a whole, I think, spent like £177 million. Now they've bought the likes of Gonzalez, Mamouch, Kusanov. Do you think this has been a response not just to the Arsenal, but to the season so far, but also, do you think c. Do you think City realistically came into this season thinking, actually, the team we have in front of us should be good enough, obviously Rodrigon should be good enough to compete in the Premier League?
- [12:21]
Tom Harris
I think they must have done, to be honest. I think there's no other conclusion that's likely. It's really hard for all teams, no matter how good they are, to understand the point at which they start to kind of descend. Like, that's one of the big challenges in football. It's a challenge for every manager. People will always say, you know, Alex Ferguson kind of managed the transition perfectly X number of times, but if you look, he didn't. He didn't do it overnight. Like, it took a couple of years. There was always a little bit of a gap between United's title runs. And that, I think, is probably because even he found it really challenging. So it's. I think it seems fair to me that City have had this incredible run of success. You know, more than arguably the best Premier League team in history, possibly the greatest club side English football's ever seen. It's not a massive shock that they left it a little bit late to start rejuvenating it, because that's what happens in football. You. You see what you want to see. You don't want to believe that. Would you have said in August, Well, I think Kevin de Bruyne has passed it. Of course you wouldn't, because the chances are you would look an idiot because he's Kevin de Bruyne. So I think it's natural to an extent. It's part of the rise and fall of empires in football that, like the internal dynamics of the sport, that the teams that estab establish that kind of power, they always leave it a little bit too late. I think City would have been excused for spending so big in. In this window, as David says, because of what they've been through over the last, like, three months, you knew they'd go into it and they'd try and solve some of the problems. I'm a little bit surprised they left it so late with the midfielder, given that that was the most obvious issue. I think, like, it's weird they waited until 11 o'clock on deadline day to go and get someone. And I'm going to put a little, little asterisk here because I'm really, like David says, like you, you're a hostage to fortune. When you, when you broadcast stuff, like people ask you your opinions, you have no, you've no idea, really. Like we're just people talking about football and, and you, and you. You know, like David says, you're in the privileged position that you speak to people within the game and you, you understand a little bit more than you would do maybe otherwise of the kind of the internal dynamics and stuff, but really it's just, you're just guessing. I'm not sure. City have spent all that money very well. That's. That's my in. That is my. That is to live my truth. Ayo. That is my. That is how I feel. I think Marmush is a. Well, I think Mahmou is a great signing. He's a really good player. And the, the Alvarez comparison is perfect. He looks almost like a kind of identity kit match for Alvarez's like, skill set. He, he's maybe better from set pieces. He has the same kind of versatility. He can play lots of different roles. I think Mahmoud is a good signing, but I think City paid peak price for him. They, they bought him at the point where quite a lot of other clubs would have said that is the highest value he will get at Frankfurt. So we need to be a little bit wary. City went in and thought, okay, our need is sufficient that we have to go and spend that money. Fine, not a problem. Like David says, they'd stored up, they kept the powder dry, they had the money to spend. No psr, headroom issues. Off you go. I think signing one young defender is a good idea. I think signing two, particularly of those profiles, is kind of asked, not asking for trouble, but I don't think. And we saw this with Tucson off against Chelsea. I don't think they're immediate plug and play problem solvers. I think it may well be that in five years time I get the. Whatever Twitter's become by then, just like some sort of massive hellscape where it's literally just Elon Musk's tweets. But this my account, my ghost account is still there. And someone said, oh, you said truth enough and race wouldn't be very good. Like, I'm sure that they will prove to be excellent footballers, but given the situation City are in, I'm not sure I'd throw one or both of them into a game against Real Madrid in The knockout rounds of the Champions League. And I think it feels to me like maybe City could have left that bit of rejuvenation of the squad until the summer and maybe don't have someone who was. Who was ready if they were prepared to commit money. And we have seen they are prepared to commit the money. So it feels like there they've maybe spent for the future when the present should have been a bit more of a concern. And then Nico, it. It's a position, as David says, they needed to fill. It looks to me an awful lot like they went down their list, realized that the two or three on the top of it they couldn't really get. And they've gone for someone who was fine at Barcelona, but they sold him without really thinking about it in, you know, allowing for Barcelona's weird financial position. So maybe that forced it kind of did okay at Valencia and not a great Valencia. It didn't stand out particularly. He's been okay at Porto. He's not a bad footballer. I don't think he's going to come on and, you know, look like a giraffe on ice. Like he will be fine. And it may be that surrounded by better players with the best coach in the world, he reaches another level. But the Rodri comparison to me falls short because Rodri had been one of the best players in Spain for a little while when he arrived at Manchester City, and it still took him a year to become Rodri, you know, in capital letters. I don't think we've ever seen anything from Nico in his career that suggests he will hit that level. He might be a useful squad player. And I think David is right that there's a point at which you are. You just need a body at Man City. You need someone who can run around in midfield. That's what they're after. It surprises me a little bit that he's the one they landed on. I'm not sure we've seen enough from him to think this guy's going to have a transformational impact. I could be wrong, and I often am, but that is my. All I can. All I can speak is my truth.
- [17:25]
Rory Smith
Rory, how much do you think the change of Sporting director played into any of this, if at all? You've got cheeky Baghira stain in his last full transfer window in control. He'll be there for a bit of the summer by virtue of his contract. Probably not quite expiring, but he'll be handing over to Hugo Viana. How involved might Varana have been in this Window. A lot of people I've spoken to at City sort of say Cheeky's gone out with a bang. But then, you know, if, if he really wanted to go out with a bang for this season, to your point, he would have signed players who might have helped City win trophies right now, which is not the case with say a Hussinov and, and Rice and secondary. Like, how much does this all play into the rebuild that's needed, which Pep Guardiola will be spearheading for the time being. He signed a two year contract unexpectedly. If he was going to stay, which was in doubt, it was always going to be a one year contract. People inside the club were shocked when it was said to be two, that clearly he knew this rejuvenation was required. And unless it was just optics and he wanted to keep the conversation away from him for a couple of years, then there's a lot going on here that's not just about the people we talk about most, the players.
- [18:46]
Tom Harris
Yeah. And you see that a lot, don't you? That you kind of get clubs who, who end up somehow with too much to change all at once and there's too many things to deal with. And it's, it's really that bit of running a football club. Football clubs make running football clubs look very difficult. I think certain things are genuinely difficult. And that kind of generational shift, all of it happening at once, I think that is hard. When, when Cheeky decided he was going, I think the reaction within City. You will be able to contradict me on this, David. The, the impression I got of the reaction was he's kind of done his time. That's fine. You know, he's. He's in his 60s. He spent probably 10 years in Manchester. Okay. Yeah. Wants to go and do other things, not a problem. I don't think when that happened, they saw that they'd also have to completely overhaul the squad. I don't think they saw that coming. And I'm not sure the interpretation, the best interpretation I heard from within City was that they kind of let Cheeky go when they knew that Pep would stay. And so I think there's probably they didn't. City are too well run or have been too well run to allow those two central cards in the machine to go at the same time. I think if Cheati had said he was going to stay, then maybe that would have been in hindsight an indication that Pep was ready to go. Pep, I think it might be an optics thing. I wouldn't be surprised if Pep is Doing what Klopp did, which is you sign the long contract and then you go before it ends. I. That wouldn't stun me. But at the same time I'm pretty certain Pep Guardiola doesn't want to go out with Manchester City scrabbling to get in the top four. He will want a trophy, he'll want a golden send off. You are right though. It is strange that Bideristein's final transfer with full transfer window has been. Looks like it's been one for the future. Okay. Nico is a kind of bring him in now. He will go into the team, he will offer energy at least and that. That I think will have a. That will improve. Manch Marmous looks ready. He look, he's having a brilliant season. He is straight in the team started the last two games fine. The defenders, it does look like a play for the future and that is surprising given that Badiristan is on the way out and Hudo Viana technically can't work for Manchester City at the moment, so really shouldn't be involved. I really hope he's not involved. That would be in direct contravention of his contract with Sporting Lisbon. But I guess the thing is that the targets. I don't know, David. You're much closer to this than I am. It depends on what you see and what type of sporting director they think they're getting and what type of sporting director they think Cheeti is. Because is he the culture guy who is overseeing everything or is he the deal maker? Because if it's just. If they're just the deal makers, they're the, the people who are kind of employed to say, right, this is the way to get to this player and we can, if we do this, we can also do this, then the targets won't change. The targets will be set by the scouting team, by the data team, by the kind of the broader recruitment apparatus. And that isn't really influenced by who the sporting director is. My guess is City will. That's how City works.
- [21:27]
Rory Smith
Agree.
- [21:27]
Tom Harris
Because that's how most club. Most of the. Most of the well run clubs work now. So it may be that these are players that have been on City's list for some time and they've decided to move for them. I can believe that Vitor Race Kusanov's rise has been pretty exponential. I'd be standard if City had been watching him for more than a year.
- [21:43]
David Ornstein
Okay, gents, I have to move on because there'll be other people listening to this going, what about my team? We could do a whole pod on City.
- [21:49]
Rory Smith
I was going to mention City's best signing of the window. Come on, give me very quickly or not signing retention. Nico O'Reilly okay, who is got top potential and Chelsea tried to sign him and do a Cole Palmer Mark 2, but City managed to keep hold of him. And you'll remember this when he he comes good and everybody's talking about we're stamping it now.
- [22:11]
David Ornstein
We're stamping it. Put it. Put it on your default Twitter account.
- [22:15]
Tom Harris
You're listening to the Athletic FC Podcast with IO Akinwaleere.
- [22:20]
Ayo Akinwaleere
This episode is brought to you by Allstate. Some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking Allstate First. Like you know to check the date of the big game first before you accidentally buy tickets on your 20th wedding anniversary and have to spend the next 20 years of your marriage making up for it. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate Savings. Vary terms apply. Allstate Fire and Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates Northbrook, Illinois hey everybody, it's Diana.
- [22:52]
Tom Harris
Rossini from the Scoop City podcast. It's super bowl week and the eyes of the world are on New Orleans to see if the Chiefs can make history or if the Eagles are ready to reign on their parade. Myself, Robert Mays, Derek Claassen and a whole host of NFL reporters and special guests will be live streaming every day from Radio Row covering all the build up to Sunday showdown. Join us on the Athletic HQ YouTube account every day at 5pm Eastern time. It's not to be missed.
- [23:25]
David Ornstein
Let's move on to Spurs. Another big deal in the window. A loan signing for Bayern's Mattis. Tell who joined spurs on loan Tell link with a host of Premier League clubs for sure. How did spurs manage to snag his signature? Because from what I heard, I thought he was even going to be staying at Munich again to the end of the season.
- [23:45]
Rory Smith
I'll give my personal reporting chronology of and others will have their own. Tell first came on my radar when Chelsea were looking into him and it didn't come out anywhere for a long time. I think this is like beyond last summer, like a long time ago. Even though he's only 19 now. So you know, top young French attacker sort of whether you call him a striker or a wide forward and Bayern Munich, clearly we're on to something by bringing him in. It hasn't worked. People around the European football scene with much better expertise Than me say that he just hasn't acclaimed, acclimatized to the step up as well as people thought. And maybe it's the pressure, the expectation or it's just a natural learning thing. So with Harry Kane, of course leading line for Bayern Munich, this became an opportunity that clubs were made aware of immediately. The likes of Tottenham, Manchester United, Arsenal were being heavily linked to him. I think there was a lot of work from multiple agents going on here as well, offering him to these clubs at least for the possibility of exploring a deal. Tottenham bit on it and they, I think, I don't even know what day they were on now. Last week they tried to do it permanently. There were reports that Daniel Levy was over in Munich negotiating and it seemed that they put a an offer together worth 60 million euros and ultimately the player said no. My information is that he told Tottenham that he loves Bayern Munich. He wants to stay for the time being and reassess the situation in the summer. Immediately there was this explosion of reports that now Manchester United have opened negotiations and are trying to do a loan deal. It's true they inquired and were interested in a potential loan deal. I don't know of it being as advanced as others had suggested. Arsenal discussed it internally. I think they were offered the opportunity to take the conversation forward. They checked in with his representatives to gain an understanding of the situation. But firstly, I don't think they saw him as being a number nine, which is what they were looking for in this window. Secondly, Mikel Arteta stated that he didn't just want to bring in a body. And given Arsenal's current team and who's in which positions, I think he would have just been a body and that would have been expensive for four months of the season if it was just alone, if they couldn't have got an option to buy. And also he's 19 years old, he hasn't been playing for Bayern Munich. People are expecting him to come to the Premier League, hit the ground running. Imagine that at the pressure cooker of Manchester United. Right now, I'm not sure that would have been right for any party. And suddenly on deadline day, we saw that his agent was posting pictures from a private jet flying, flying over to the uk. In the back of those pictures was Matthias Tell. So, you know, conversations started flowing and rumors started circulating. Is he going to Arsenal? Is he going to Tottenham, Chelsea? I don't know. But yeah, Tottenham were determined now to get a deal done. I don't think it was easy. Everybody thought, oh, that's case closed. I think it still took a lot of conversations. There were a lot of people involved and ultimately they secured a deal, which is a loan with an option to buy. The option to buy, I was told, is 55 million euros. He completed his medical as the deadline approached. There's a. I think it's. Is it a five and a half year contract? I reported. And, and they've got him in and, and now finally we'll put to the test the person that everybody's been speaking about. Is he any good? Can he help Tottenham who are in a difficult moment, but they've just had a, a bit of a spring put in their step by that win at Brentford. They've still been like absolutely ravaged by injuries, but it's an opportunity for him. They're in cup competitions and, and yeah, it's, it's one that we, we will be able to tell our grandchildren about when we regale them with tales of tell in the 2025 transfer window.
- [27:40]
David Ornstein
I mean you, you're almost delirious at this point. This is what happens when Audi hasn't slept. He's coming out with inspirational.
- [27:47]
Rory Smith
Rolling off fumes, baby.
- [27:50]
David Ornstein
And, and dad jokes. Rory, let's round this up because look, you, you said earlier, you know, January is always quite precarious for, for clubs, you know, in terms of do you spend the money now or do you wait till the summer? Many people don't want to do business in January if they can avoid it. You know, who were in your opinion in this window? The real winners? The clubs that have done little to nothing or the people that have brought people in because we haven't even got to it. But, but Arsenal still don't have that number nine elusive number nine. They've been.
- [28:17]
Tom Harris
Arsenal are never signing another nine. Everyone needs to accept that. No, they're just, they're gonna retire the position. They don't need Manchester City 5 1. They don't need a number 9. I think it depends. I think that, yeah, that idea of like winning the transfer window we should really all have worked worked out by now that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. You know, it takes a while to work out. I think Matisse tell to spurs is a really, a really good idea. He is got hugely high ceiling. He's got a surprising amount of experience as David kind of alludes to for his age. He is a player of incredible promise and there is a thing of, you know, if you bring a new player in, then it does give everybody, just gives everybody a lift. It'll be interesting to see where he plays, obviously he kind of does his best work in son's position. That might free son up a little bit to not play every single minute of every single match, which might help son's form. But I think Kevin Dan says quite smart signing for spurs as well. They desperately needed bodies. I'm surprised they haven't gone for another one. Even on loan at center back just.
- [29:17]
David Ornstein
To try and now with the acl.
- [29:19]
Tom Harris
Yeah, because there's still question marks over Romero and van der Ven and ultimately I don't want to, you know, get into an argument, but it does seem like the way they play takes a lot of, a lot, a lot of toll on players bodies. But at the same time, I think if you're, if you're a team that's not signed anybody, you're probably thinking, you know, that's not a bad thing. We've got through it. I think Enzo Maurest is probably quite happy that the transfer window shut. It seems a long time since we were praising Chelsea's model. The. He'll be relieved to have that kind of sense of stability again. And it wouldn't shock me, you know, to see Chelsea's results improve pretty quickly now that everyone's confident that they continue to be employed in West London for the next six months. Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a month for teams who are, are in relatively desperate need of reinforcements. And I think from that point of view you'd look at Villa and City, I suppose, and say that City's chances of finishing the top four doing one of the Champions League stronger, even with my doubts over the business they've done stronger now than they were a month ago. Manchester United have got a left wing back which might help, but at the same time they've let, they've let two forward players go and not replace them, which feels really surprising to me. And if, I suspect if someone had told Reuben Amarin that was what, what was going to happen in his first January in Manchester, he might have said, do you know what? I think I will stick at Sporting just for the season. That seems like a better idea. So I think it depends on what your team went into January needing. That's probably the best, the best way of putting it. If you needed reinforcements, like maybe Villa did, probably quite pleased to see them. If you went into it thinking you maybe didn't, then you might just be glad the month's over, but not as glad that it's over as David is.
- [30:57]
David Ornstein
Yeah, David United were interesting and Rory makes a really good point there. I mean, Kobe, Mainu played almost at a forward in the last match. They've let Rashford go who's, I think their third best scorer this season, and I mean, haven't replaced him. And it doesn't look like Amarim favors either of the attacking options he's got at this moment in time with Xerxe and Hojlund. Have they missed the trick here?
- [31:19]
Rory Smith
They appear to have. Because, like, if we just step back and don't take on board the guidance that you receive when you speak to clubs after days like yesterday, which is often a kind of an exercise in crisis management. I'm not just talking about Manchester United. Any club where there's perceived dissatisfaction among the fan base. You. You get phone calls and briefing notes to sort of explain and rationalize what's gone on there. But if we're to take some distance, yeah, like they're in a really bad position in the Premier League and. And they are. Manchester United with the highest of expectations and the most glittering of histories. They should have reinforced their attack. They're struggling to score goals, but that's the basic view. But if you look at the actual specifics and the possibilities. So they did explore the tell situation. The suggestion is that it was a 5 million euro loan fee and there was no option to buy that could be easily negotiated. And that would have been a very expensive gamble for a club who are trying to not make expensive mistakes like you could, say, have been made in the past. And we're now in February, the season finishes in May. He's 19 years old. Manchester United is a tough environment at the best of times, let alone right now. And so the tell situation, for whatever reason, didn't come to fruition. They looked into Christopher Nkunku throughout the month. Could they sign him permanently? Chelsea wanted a fee that Manchester United didn't think was realistic. On Sunday, Manchester United inquired to Chelsea directly, as I understand it, for a loan of Christopher Nkunku, and that was rebuffed by Chelsea. Also, Nkunku had no interest in a loan. And so it was back to the drawing board. They looked at other possibilities, like a Leon Bailey at Aston Villa with obviously Marcus Rashford going there. The two clubs were in communication that didn't materialize. So it's not like they didn't try for things. They turned over stones and ultimate. Those stones didn't produce anything. They did at left back. They've signed Patrick Dawgu and they'll hope, 20 years old, around £30 million. That. That's a decent signing for them, but that horrible old phrase time will tell. And elsewhere they've signed Aiden Heaven, young player from Arsenal coming into the first team setup. But I don't think we should be talking about him as being a. A sort of. Of frontline signing that the fans will be getting too thrilled about right now, with all due respect. And then Diego Leon as well has come in to. And that's one for the future. So, yeah, it's a bit dissatisfying for. For many Manchester United fans and that there are holes in the team that need to be filled, but they're in a very difficult moment financially. Their PSR is okay at the moment, but if they spend in a reckless way, it won't be okay. And they've got some work to do for the next round of psr. Their issue is more sort of normal profit and loss. They're losing a lot of money at Manchester United. They can't keep doing it, which is why we've seen cuts at the club. And you can scrutinize the wisdom of handing Erik Ten Hag a new contract and then sacking him soon after. Of many of the contracts they've given out in recent years, of many of the signings that they've made. And the new regime are trying to do something about that. Not ideal. Just recently their sporting director, who would have been surely responsible for overseeing this transfer market, left the club. Like, this is a really tumultuous time at United. I'm not here to make excuses for them, but I do think there was an emphasis on trying to clean up a little bit. So one of the acts was to get rid of Marcus Rashford, another was to get rid of Anthony, another was to try and get rid of Casemiro. That didn't happen. And this reminds me a little bit of what Arsenal did when Mesnerzil and Socrates and Aubameyang and Guendouzi and others left. And in time they got it right. And Manchester United will hope to follow a similar path, but in time they get things right. But certainly it feels like a bit of a winter of discontent there right now. However, they do have a really good head coach. There is a lot of talent there and they should be doing better than they are. There have been some signs just recently on the pitch that Ruben Amarin is getting a bit of a tune out of them, but every time they take a couple of steps forward, they then take one back and they just keep.
- [36:01]
David Ornstein
Losing and they're not scoring.
- [36:03]
Rory Smith
Exactly. And so, yeah, I'm Afraid United fans are going to have to hope that the forwards you mentioned hit their stride, and otherwise it's, what can we do in the summer?
- [36:12]
David Ornstein
Okay. United are currently 13th in the Premier League. European football's gonna be hard this season, but as we say, the proof is in the pudding. Let's see how these new signings line up at Manchester United.
- [36:32]
Tom Harris
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akamalera.
- [36:39]
David Ornstein
All right, time to talk about Aston Villa, because they have been busy, very busy month for them. And let's bring in our Villa correspondent, Jacob Tanswell. Jacob, good to have you with us, man. Have you slept yet? Because Villa have been really, really busy. You know, Villa had the biggest sale in the Premier League in January, with John Duran going to al Nassr for 64, 4.5 million pounds. They also bought in a raft of attackers, which we'll go into shortly. But let's focus on Duran first. We spoke about this because you dropped into the podcast very recently. So much talk and so many interested parties. In the end, do you think Villa got a good price and was everyone satisfied?
- [37:17]
Diana Rossini
Well, I think I've had more sleep than David has. It's still pretty testing with John Duran. I always thought he would leave in the next 612 months. It's just a case of. Of when, really, I think for Villa, although they would brief for that John Dram wasn't for sale this window and they rejected West Ham's offers, as David reported. There's always that feeling from, you know, the contest I speak to, that if the right price came up and if it could help facilitate other deals and it could help with easing PSR pressures, that they would. They would move him on. John Durant, as we've spoken about before, is a precocious talent, but ultimately there are a lot of unknowns about him. He still was very young in his care, had barely started games, and for that price that Al Nasser were preparing to offer him, I think Villa thought, you know what?
- [38:08]
Tom Harris
Let's.
- [38:08]
Diana Rossini
Let's take the reward now.
- [38:09]
David Ornstein
Yeah, yeah, Rory, Just looking at the incomings on this, Donya Marlin was done in much early in January for £20 million from Dortmund. Obviously, Marcus Rashford and Andensio, who've come in on loan, I guess I want to focus on Marcus Rashford, really, because so much has been made of his move away from Manchester United. First time he's played for anyone else since he was a boy, really. Is this the kind of move that can reignite his career? Can Unai Emery squeeze something out of Marcus Rashford? Like we've seen before.
- [38:39]
Tom Harris
I mean, a lot of that depends, I think, on Marcus Rashford. Really. It does make sense, I think in one. In kind of on the surface. You look at it and think, yeah, that fits. Like it's obvious where he will be able to play. It's an area that Villa maybe needed to strengthen, particularly after Duran went. It's the right profile of club. He's playing in the Champions or he will be playing in the Champions League. He's managed to be loaned out by Manch United to a more successful team than Manchester United at the moment, which is quite impressive. He stays in the Premier League. But then the whole Rashford conversation, I think is, has been a little bit skewed by like the great unknown that 10 hard and amorim have both kind of made a. An example of Rashford. The allegation from Amarim was he wasn't trying in training. And it depends what that that means. Like, is that not. He's not giving his best? Maybe. Could the manager have tried to work that through that with him? Yes. Would a different manager maybe take a different approach and have more success? Probably. Is it that he is being deliberately obstructive? Maybe. I don't. It sounds unlikely to me, but it's possible. So I think a lot of it depends on kind of where Rashford's head's at, really. There is like the technical and tactical side of it. It should be a success. If his head's not right, if he's not kind of sufficiently motivated, then it may be that he needs more than a change of scenery or at least that a change of scenery isn't going to be sort of a panacea for the problem.
- [39:58]
David Ornstein
Well, as a Midlander, I can tell you the West Midlands is a beautiful place to rejuvenate your career.
- [40:03]
Tom Harris
Whose spirits couldn't be lifted by Birmingham.
- [40:06]
David Ornstein
Exactly, exactly. But, David, do we have a sense of whether or not Manchester United want him back or not? Because even this loan deal, Aston Villa are still flitting a lot of the bill, aren't they?
- [40:15]
Rory Smith
Yeah, they are. So it's 75% of his salary, which is in excess of £325,000 a week. But of course, that's much smaller over this period of time. It's just four months until the end of the season. It's got the potential to rise to 90% depending on performance related bonuses. There's a loan fee involved, I'm sure. And it's a pretty good financial deal in the circumstances for Manchester United and A major commitment on behalf of Aston Villa, which underlines the fact that they really wanted him. And there was suggestion that maybe some of the interest out there that had been reported was not necessarily true or had been embellished. I take a bit of personal offense to that because I was the person reporting a lot of it and, and sourced it thoroughly. There was some interest from A.C. milan. Yeah. They held conversations similar with Juventus, with Borussia Dortmund who were looking at it very closely. Barcelona. I don't know about the two way conversation, but I do know that Marcus Rashford had a preference to go there if the door was to be opened. There were clubs in the Premier League who examined it, such as a Tottenham, I think West Ham were reported. And then we come to Aston Villa. Unai Emery drove this sort of single handedly because initially I'm not sure it was one that the club would have been so focused on. Maybe their priorities lay elsewhere. Maybe for whatever reason, having seen him not playing at Manchester United, they didn't immediately say, oh, come and play for Aston Villa. But Unai Emery loves Marcus Rashford as a player. He believes, whether we like it or not, that Rashford is one of the best in world football and that he is the perfect coach to bring him back to his top level. And therefore they will see this being a successful partnership in the Premier League, in the Champions League and maybe Beyond. Hence the 40 million pound buy option with all of that in mind. I don't think Manchester United envisage him being part of their future, but that doesn't mean to say that he won't be because they've got control over the situation to an extent. If that buy option is not taken and, and Marcus Rashford wants to go back to Manchester United, there are a lot of conversations that will need to happen in the summer and, and Manchester United hold his contract until 2028. So that's not insignificant in this. But you know, there was a report that came out on deadline day saying Manchester United expect Marcus Rashford to have played his last game for the club, irrespective of whether Ruben Amarim is the manager or not. And there was a sense around it. This is, this is unscientific. It did feel a bit of an end of an era yesterday. Marcus Rashford changing colors, leaving the club, saying his goodbyes. It did feel that they had moved on. And a lot has happened there. Clearly you don't just, just, you know, drop somebody for the Manchester Derby, banish him from the last 12 squads or whatever it was. And there have been so many issues in, in the last couple of years and you can debate who's was at fault. The Belfast incident where he was late to return for training. Manchester United maybe shifting his position after his 30 goal season. There's a lot of water under that bridge and I see this initially being an opportunity to, for Villa to, to build with Marcus Rashford going forward, maybe in another club subsequently. But I would say it's looking improbable that Marcus Rashford and Manchester United have a future together.
- [43:51]
David Ornstein
Okay, Jacob, I want to speak to you about Villa's finances in just a second. But I'm just thinking about the attackers they've brought in as well as obviously holding on to Watkins, which is massive for them. Rashford, Marlin and Sancio. I know Asensio can play on the right, but Marlin and Rashford do quite like it on the left as well. Like, you know, and they've got competition on the left as well with several players at Aston Villa. Right now, do we have a sense of how Unai em wants to integrate these players into this squad or are they bit players or is this something he sees as a long term thing?
- [44:22]
Diana Rossini
Well, in his system, Unai Emery's always wanted multifaceted, versatile attackers and they believe that Rashford can play anywhere across the front line. On the left, as a 10, as a 9 and on the right as well. Although, you know, from his time at Manchester United, I don't think being on the right was. He was keen on that. But Emery's always wanted versatile attackers. He's never really wanted an out and out nine as such when he's wanted, wanted to recruit in the four positions. But it is interesting. They've got a lot of options on the left. But what's the in the. The quirk in Emery system is they don't actually play with a left winger as such. They play with a number 10. So if you see bit of the season it's often John McGinn or Morgan Rogers or Jacob Ramsay. He's coming into the pockets and they allow the left back to overlap where on the right hand side they have to keep the width. So can you see Rashford with paint on his boots and staying up wide on the right? Probably not. Can you see him as a left number 10? Maybe not. So you're probably thinking he's going to be, you know, dovetailing with Watkins or just behind Watkins or, or filling in for him when Watkins can't play. Because at the moment Watkins has got a small injury which will keep him out for the next game.
- [45:23]
David Ornstein
Yeah, our Villa are making a massive gamble, like, because there are ways to, to run a football club, right. And you could think, you know, five years down the line or you could think for the now, Villa currently eighth in the Premier League. You know, we saw in the latest figures in the Deloitte Football money league, aston villa spent 96 over on wages in the 23, 24 campaign. Is that a massive gamble they're taking especially they're currently 8th and they don't qualify for European football next season.
- [45:53]
Diana Rossini
Jacob, it is a big gamble. They've made about 75 million so far in the Champions League, which obviously will help, but they're still some way away from, you know, everyone else. If you look at that money league where it shows you the top 20 clubs in terms of revenue, Villa are way down compared to a lot of clubs in, in commercial revenue. So they're grow that area, those, those sectors. But having a wage pool that high puts considerable strain. They're having to churn players constantly in, in windows because they're just trying to balance the books. You know, a lot of PSR deals. So Emry and Villa success is based on what they do here on the here and now. So, you know, paying these wages, trying to get better, better players, trying to invest in more people to come to stadiums to buy shirts. It all comes to the success on the pitch. So they're eighth in the league and although normally you probably say, say, you know, eighth is quite good, Vida are kind of accounting for them to be in the Champions League and in the top five or six at least to make sure that they keep the ship sailing.
- [46:54]
Tom Harris
Yeah, I think, I mean, Jacob says quite rightly that they, that those, those account, those accounts in figures are for last season. So they, they will have made a substantial amount of money from the Champions League already. They, they would be hopeful of making more. They're in, in the last 16, obviously with that automatic slot, they have a relatively kind draw. I think once they do get involved, they might like to avoid Atalanta. But apart from that, it's kind of the, it's probably the best set of fixtures they could have hoped for. So they will be looking, I mean, they may well make 100 million ish from the champions League as a, as a kind of ballpark estimate that will change how much of a percentage is grown on wages. And also essential and Rashford are loans. So although there is an initial outlay, they're not committing to that over four or five years yet. Get in that context that feels sensible. They've, they've effectively brought those two in I think to try and get them back into the Champions League does it looks like their business model is, is rooted on being in the Champions League all the time. And I don't want to sound negative and pessimistic but I live quite near Leeds and they tried that. It didn't work. And as much as, as PSR Villa and like Newcastle and Forest, they kind of demonize psr. I think there's two things that are kind of missed out with that conversation. One is they have spent quite a lot of money on transfer fees. That's why you hit the limit. And that all that PSR is there to do is, is to stop you spending constantly and getting yourself into trouble. But the other thing it's meant to do and it's been replaced by the squad cross measure in the summer. The other thing it's meant to do is kind of tether you in terms of your wage output because that is when clubs get into problems is when the wages start spiraling and the income doesn't match it. Villa are massive outliers in the league in terms of how much of their revenue they're spending on, on wages. Most clubs I think aim to be. David might know, might know this off the top of his head. He knows many things off the top of his head. But I think most clubs aim to be around 60, 70%. That's kind of accepted best practice.
- [48:52]
Rory Smith
Yeah, it's come up a bit, hasn't it? But that's still, still around this sort of appropriate limit in their minds.
- [48:58]
Tom Harris
That's kind of what they're thinking. That's where they want to be. So to be up at 96 last season, even allowing for the Champions League money, money that is them taking a risk. There's no other way of, of, of expressing it. And if they don't make it then maybe they have to cut their cloth a little bit accordingly in the summer. The Duran money will, will help. That is, that's, that should also be factored in. They are trying to balance the books but at the same time it shows how kind of how fragile these, these things can be. They've gone for two loans to try and get themselves back into probably the top five this season. And it may be that if they do that, that solves all the problems. And Villa get two years of, you know, 200 million quid from the Champions League. Suddenly it's all worked out. The problem is what happens if they.
- [49:34]
David Ornstein
Finish sixth gents let's end the pod there. Thanks, David, Rory and also Jacob. For more analysis on the January Window, head over to the Athletic right now. We'll be back tomorrow. Thanks for listening.
- [49:48]
Ayo Akinwaleere
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.