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- [00:00]
Harriet
Hotels.com knows that planning your book club's annual trip can get chaotic. Self improvement.
- [00:05]
Steve
Steve needs a hotel, gym and horror.
- [00:07]
Harriet
Harriet ghosted the group chat about Budget, Collaborate, vote on your favorites and book all in the app. Find your perfect somewhere with hotels.com when.
- [00:15]
Steve
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- [00:47]
Harriet
Is brought to you by Aura. By the time you hear about a data breach, your information has already been exposed for months. On average, companies take 277 days to report a breach. That's nine months where hackers have access to your personal data. That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Aura is an all in one digital safety solution that monitors the dark web for your phone number, email and Social Security number, sending real time alerts if your info is found. It also includes a vpn, password manager and data broker removal to help keep you safe for a limited time. Aura is offering a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked. All for free@aura.com safety that's aura.com safety to sign up and protect your loved ones. That's aura.com safety terms apply. Check the site for details.
- [01:43]
Ayo Aquimulere
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [01:48]
Dermot Corrigan
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Aquimulere. Real Madrid are in chaos following the latest El Clasico mistake there and Raphinha.
- [01:56]
Ayo Aquimulere
Might have the chance to score another for Barcelona.
- [01:58]
Guillermo Ray
Ferran Raphinha and there it is, the fourth Barcelona goal in this explosive first.
- [02:06]
Dermot Corrigan
Half knocked out of the Champions League and defeat to Barcelona makes another league title unlikely. So where has it all gone wrong for Real Madrid and is Xabi Alonso the man to fix them? Here with us today we have our La Liga correspondent Dermot Corrigan and Real Madrid writer Guillermo Ray. We'll also be hearing the Barcelona Perspective with Paul Belous a little later on. Right, Dermot, you wrote in your piece always, always watch El Clasico and this was an absolutely delightful one. We already had goals by the first half with lots of drama, in effect. But, you know, you watch Real Madrid's forced defeat from four classicos this season. That only tells half the story, in my opinion, doesn't it?
- [02:48]
Ayo Aquimulere
Yeah, it was tremendous entertainment yesterday, like from start to finish, really, from inside the first couple of minutes, you've got a penalty and then right at the end, you know, Madrid with a chance to come back and maybe get. Make it four, four. But Barca were deserved winners. They're the better team in the game and they've been the better team all season in Spain. They've been the best team in Spain. Madrid have lots of really good individuals. We saw again y, you know, Mbappe with a hat trick. But Barca are a much more complete team, a better collective. Madrid have so many problems in defense and it was, yeah, tremendously entertaining for us. It was tremendously fantastic for the Barca fans, the Barca players. And it was pretty not so good for Madrid. Even Mbappe scores a hat trick and, you know, don't think he was too happy going home last night on the plane to Madrid.
- [03:32]
Dermot Corrigan
Yeah. Let's talk about Mbappe, Guillermo. I mean, look, what does Sunday's game for you? Tell us about his season. He's now broken the record for most goals scored in a debut season for Real Madrid. He's on 39 goals. That's 27 goals in La Liga already with three assists and 31 in 31 matches. And that's seven goals in the Champions League already, excluding cop competitions as well. So as a striker, he seems to be doing his job right.
- [03:57]
Paul Belous
Yeah, I think that so far we are able to say that he has been the best player of the squad this season. After the Manchester City triumph in which Kylian scored as well, a hat trick, I think that we all felt that he was at the top of his game. And I think that he has contributed in terms of goals to what the team needed. And it wasn't his fault in that sense, but yesterday we felt that it's not enough with Kylian. Obviously there have been some complaints about, for example, Kylian. Mbappe's defensive intensity is not something new, but if you really have like the 10 players behind him, if they really defend, there is a structure. You don't really need this player to defend. So it's not only his fault, of course, and I think it will change for the next season because we have all understood that Real Madrid now have a trusted goal scorer. And it's good news.
- [04:56]
Ayo Aquimulere
Gimbappe scored a lot of goals, I'd say, but he's Come into a team which was working pretty well attacking wise and now it doesn't work so well attacking wise. It's had knock on effects on Bellingham, who hasn't had a great season. Vinicius, his numbers are way down. You could see when you watch the Barca team how you know they have big superstar attackers, but they all work for each other, they all connect together. There's a team structure in which they all seem to be able to shine at Madrid at the minute, Mbappe is able to get a lot of goals, but the team structure is not there and it's having knock on effects for further back the pitch, which is kind of going to be the challenge for the new Madrid coach, you know, with Anthony on the way out, if it is Jabby Alonso coming in and it all points towards it being Xabi Alonso, but it's a, it's going to be a huge job to get Mbappe to continue scoring that amount of goals, maybe even more goals, but to also have the guys around him feeling comfortable fitting in and performing, having really good goals and assist numbers as well.
- [05:46]
Dermot Corrigan
Yeah, for sure. Well, we'll be scrutinizing Real Madrid a little further later on, but let's hear from Paul Belous on the Barcelona perspective about the significance of Sunday's win.
- [05:57]
Guillermo Ray
Barcelona healed their wounds in the best possible way with a classical win, and one that is particularly special. This season will be impossible to forget among Barca fans. For their record against Real Madrid, they won all four matchups they had against them, a feat which had never been done before by any of the sides while scoring 16 goals in four games against them. Many wondered how would the players react after the heartbreak in the champions league at Sun0. And possibly this had a lot to do in a very sloppy start of the game for Flick's men. But there's nothing that can take this group of players down. Lamin Diamal led the reaction again. Raphinha was an absolute hammer up front, and Pedri went with another masterclass. Barcelona fans had not had this fun with their football team over at least the last decade. This for itself should make this season a memorable one in Catalunya. But adding another piece of silverware with this La Liga title, which is almost secured now, will effectively lay the foundations of Hansi Flick's era at the club. This feels like a sort of revival at Barcelona. In times where the Catalans have been more busy with their financial turmoil, off the pitch problems and legal battles, this generation of players have lifted the club's spirits Very, very high. And they have done it in a moment in which destiny seemed granted to Real Madrid. Their arc rivals came from winning La Liga Champions League last season and signing Kylian Mbappe in summer. No other club in the world can afford the recollection of world class players with the best years of their careers ahead. Seeing how it all unfolded is simply the reason why football is that great and a reminder that the youthful, proactive and collective approach taken by Barcelona have been able to overshadow the new Huera Galacticos. Football is not names. It's about playing well and putting the ball to the back of the net. And Barcelona have done that really well this season.
- [07:48]
Dermot Corrigan
I swear that sounded like a state report from Pole there. Barcelona, national news. The glee in his state report signifying Barcelona are here to stay. I love that, honestly. So, so good. Well, let's talk about it, right? Derbert, seven points clear with three games to go. Barcelona on the verge of the La Liga title. Now what does he say about both teams though? Is it more to do with Barcelona's rebuild or Real Madrid's collapse? Because I'll be honest, Barcelona defensively yesterday weren't that great.
- [08:20]
Ayo Aquimulere
Yeah, I think Barcelona have won the league and have won it so emphatically in the end, still to be confirmed, maybe on Thursday, but that they're so by far the best team in Spain. It's been a tremendous job by Hansi Flick because he came into the club last season or last summer. He was coming into a new league, a new club. A situation at Barcelona, as Paul says there, with the financial issues, off the pitch criticism with the president, Juan Laporta trying to sign Dani Olmo and then not being able to register him, all the hassles that that was going. And Madrid did look to be, you know, defending champions, European champions. It looked like Madrid were big favors for the title. But Flick put together very quickly a really good team with the flaws that he has. It's not a perfect Barca squad. It's not the same Barca squad as, you know, Luis Enrique or Pep Guardiola had, which had like, you know, maybe the best player in the world or among the best players in the world in each position. But Flicks looked at it. Maybe it suits the kind of football that he likes to play, which is very risky. Everybody attacking together, everybody defending together, a high press leaving space at the back, hoping to catch players offside. Everything we've seen from Barca through the season. And there were a couple of ropey moments along the way, you know, back in November, December, they lost some games. They were beaten by Leganes at home. They lost to Betis. People, it seemed, had maybe worked out how to beat Barca. The players looked as if they were, you know, a little bit exhausted by the physical demands of playing the way the Flick wanted to. But they've roared back through the second half of the season. You know, we saw against Inter that you can catch them out and even Madrid were able to catch them out on multiple occasions yesterday. And it could have gone either way. But Barca have this enthusiasm, this confidence, energy of youth. And you know, Flick has said it a lot, that it comes from the group that's come true together at La Masia. The younger players in the squad are amongst the leaders, even, you know, 17 year old Lamine Yamal. And Paul has enjoyed himself there as he compares it to the stars at Madrid and the overpaid and everything. And there is a certain amount of true to that. You know, you look at Barca as this fresh, new, young, exciting team and maybe Madrid are these overpaid superstars who are, you know, too lazy to track back or whatever. That's. It's maybe a little bit simplistic, but you kind of, you have to let Barca fans away with it at the minute because, you know, it's worked out well for them. You know, I've really enjoyed watching Barca play this season for maybe for the flaws in the team as well have made them really watchable and you kind of warm to them and they have to just enjoy it. You know, Madrid fans have to accept that at the minute. It's. It's just the way it is.
- [10:38]
Dermot Corrigan
Yeah, I'm still laughing at the glee of Paul's voice from that report. Honestly. So good, Guillermo. Look, 16 goals conceded to the same opponent in one season. You know, it's a new record for Real Madrid. Not the kind of history I'm sure the club would like to have made. But how much do these kind of classico defeats affect someone like Carlo Ancelotti in his position? You know, because publicly losing to your rival so many times in one season isn't a good sign considering you want to be the top team in Spain.
- [11:08]
Paul Belous
I think that from the first La Liga Clasico, and it was in October, that defeat impacted Ancelotti's future a lot from them there were a lot of criticism regarding his figure. So it has a lot to do with his future and with his current situation, all these defeats, because obviously it's the big game in Spain, but it's not the only reason. I think that the Champions League defeat against Arsenal has, has made the decision even clearer. And with Real Madrid, I think it all depends on the Champions League more than La Liga. And as they didn't face Barcelona at the Champions League, Ancelotti didn't have the chance to prove himself probably in that stage. But of course it has been a disaster for the club, for the team. They know that. They also know that they were even closer than people really think in the first La Liga game and also in the cup final. They really felt that they had like the skills and they had some offensive power to really make damage to Barcelona because they know that Barcelona is not perfect. It's not a perfect team. Probably with another Real Madrid squad in another situation, they will have won title this season and they will have overcame this situation. But things, as Dermot said, as Dermot put things are what they are right now at Real Madrid. This is the trend. And that's why probably yesterday, even though they were two goals ahead, they weren't capable of blocking Real Barcelona's power. And I think it was like something that was unstoppable and Real Madri couldn't do much.
- [12:50]
Ayo Aquimulere
Yeah, Ancelotti, he's always, he's quite diplomatic. He's a great communicator. He's can be gracious in defeat. Sometimes he just accepts over the the four classicos. Anchali, he's got a bit more fed up with what he's had to deal with. And injuries have been a big problem for Madrid. In fairness to them, they've lost like yesterday they were at their five best defenders. Probably Militao Dani Carvajal, such a huge influence on the squad as well. The captain from back, he's been out. They lost Nacho last summer and didn't really replace him. Rudiger is now gone as well. So it's very difficult to. To play against this Barca team with this attacking flair that they have the confidence that they have the ability to score goals from all areas and to be missing all your best defenders. It's not the only reason why Madrid weren't able to really compete with Barca over, over the course of the season. But it is a big reason that happened. You could also point to problems with the squad like if, if Nacho was going to leave, maybe the club should have brought more defenders last season. They should have been been ready. They should have more depth in the squad and not have so many big name attackers and not not enough proper defenders. But that's if you're Real Madrid coach, that's kind of what you have to put up with. That's the job and Ancelotti hasn't been able to handle it so far this season.
- [13:57]
Paul Belous
It's also obvious that it's not only Ancelotti's fault, but talking to a coaching staff source this morning, just a few minutes ago, what the source told me is that they have shown the commitment to the club because even that they knew that they were at their 100% even know that they didn't have defenders, they stick to the plan, they didn't want to destroy the environment and I think is something that you really have to give to them like to say, okay, they have I think behave in the proper way to, to stabilize the thing.
- [14:29]
Dermot Corrigan
Okay, well let's move on because next we'll be joined by Seb Stafford Blur to discuss Ancelotti's expected successor, Xavi Alonso.
- [14:39]
Seb Stafford Bloor
Listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akinwaleere.
- [14:44]
Harriet
This podcast is brought to you by Aura. By the time you hear about a data breach, your information has already been exposed for months. On average, companies take 277 days to report a breach. That's nine months where hackers have access to your personal data. That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Aura is an all in one digital safety solution that monitors the dark web for your phone number, email and Social Security number, sending real time alerts if you're in info is found. It also includes a vpn, password manager and data broker removal to help keep you safe for a limited time. Aura is offering a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked. All for free@aura.com safety. That's Aura.com safety to sign up and protect your loved ones. That's a u r a.com safety. Terms apply. Check the site for details.
- [15:38]
Alexa Weibel
Hi, it's Alexa Weibel from New York Times Cooking. We've got tons of easy weeknight recipes and I'm gonna make two of my favorites for you today. For my five ingredient Creamy Miso pasta, you just take your starchy pasta water, whisk it together with a little bit of miso and butter until it's creamy. Add your noodles and a little bit of cheese.
- [15:57]
Harriet
Mm.
- [15:58]
Alexa Weibel
It's like a grown up box of Mac and cheese. An easy weeknight recipe that feels like a restaurant quality dish. Next up, I'm making my vegetarian mushroom Shawarmapitas. This recipe is just built for efficiency. You toss your mushrooms and red onion in your spices, throw them in the oven. By the time they're done, your sauce is ready, you've chopped your cabbage, and you're ready to assemble. It feels crazy that something that tastes this complex and looks this colorful and beautiful is actually really easy to make and takes just 20 minutes of active time. It's just delicious. This New York Times cooking has you covered with easy dishes for busy weeknights. Find these recipes and more@nyt cooking.com Smells so good.
- [16:43]
Paul Belous
This week. The club and I, we have.
- [16:45]
Ayo Aquimulere
We have agreed that these two games.
- [16:48]
Paul Belous
Are going to be my last two games as a Bayer Leverkusen coach.
- [16:52]
Dermot Corrigan
Joining us now to discuss the expected arrival of Xabi Alonso at the Bernabeu following his announcement he'll be leaving Bayer Leverkusen is our Bundesliga correspondent, Seb Stafford Bloor. Seb, let's talk about this. Xabi Alonso announced on Friday he's leaving after the final two games of the Bundesliga season. How would you define his coaching impact on the Bundesliga so far? I was watching a video that the Bundesliga put out recently online and it said Xabi Alonso, one of the best ever in the Bundesliga, not just as a player, but also as a coach.
- [17:24]
Ryan
Yeah, it's quite a legacy when you combine those two things. I as a coach, he's had an incredibly important impact in a couple of different ways. Firstly, it mattered that he interrupted Bayern Munich's dominance of the league, that 11 straight Bundesliga titles did not become 12. And it created a spectacle of last season that mattered. And it will show that it is possible to challenge Bayern Munich. This idea that they're completely unimpeachable is not really true. And that if you can get enough things right, and this obviously goes beyond just Alonso's coaching impact, that involves Simon Rolfs, Fernando Caro, that's the sporting director, the CEO for sport and the CEO of the club, respectively. At Leverkusen, then you can challenge, you can challenge in a moment, in time, you can take advantage of dropping standards and weakness. But I think more than that, Alonso was this combination of charisma. Spoke good German, spoke good English, obviously, spoke pretty Spanish too, right? But he was very reachable for everybody. Internationally, too. His brand of football was extremely attractive. I always think beyond just literally the way the ball was moved. The originality of their chance creation made Leverkusen so watchable for so many people, and it made the most of some brilliant individual talent. Of course, when we go down that list, the first player is Florian Wirtz, naturally, because he's, for my money, at least one of the very best players in Germany and he will be one of the best players in Europe before much longer, I'm sure. It showed the best of so many different players and I'd include Alex Grimaldo on that list, who always been a talented player. I'm not sure people cared about him quite as much as they do now before he arrived. And now he sort of had a bit of a dip in his career. Jeremy Fringpong, Jonathan Tarr, Edmund Tapsoba, Grant Xhaka's revival began a little bit at Arsenal before he left. Sure. But he really reclaimed his reputation, I feel, properly in terms of what he was able to bring from a leadership and playing perspective combined when he went to Leverkusen. And the whole body of work is extremely, extremely impressive and has taken what is. I know Leverkusen are a well funded club, but they're not a very big club in the traditional sense. And so what he's been able to achieve is amazing and it's a great story and it's a story of tremendous value for German football and the Bundesliga.
- [19:35]
Dermot Corrigan
Yeah. Very quickly, before I come to you, Dermot Seb, do you see in him and what you've seen in the last couple of seasons a guy that's ready to step up? Because you talk about obviously Leverkusen and their finances, but, you know, this is a gigantual leap to Real Madrid and Florentino Perez and the riches they have and the expectations they have, you know.
- [19:55]
Ryan
Yeah, it's a really good question. I. And it's quite difficult to answer because the thing to know about Leverkusen is that it's a big club in the kind of infrastructural sense. It's a small place. Leverkusen is a tiny town, it lives in the shadow of Cologne. And also because Leverkusen is not Bayern Munich and everything in German football is kind of pointed towards Bayern or maybe Borussia Dortmund. Clubs like Hamburg, Schalke, they're a bigger deal, they have bigger audiences. A lot of what you do at a club like that as a coach and a player goes under the radar. So there's not as much scrutiny as your of your mistakes. Whereas at Real Madrid there is a. I imagine I'm not an expert. I'm sitting with two guys who are. I imagine there is a story every day, regardless of whether it's true or not, somehow. And that's something I knew, that's something that he will have experienced as a player, of course, because he's played for some of the Biggest clubs in world football. Not just, not just Real Madrid, Liverpool and Bayern Munich. So that's an adaption. But then if you look at the playing squad that he inherited when he came in so famously, Levi Kusen appointed Alonso when they were in the relegation zone in the Bundesliga in 2022. But that squad was full of players who really should have been contending for European football. And so it was just mass underperformance. That being said, where were the egos? Where were the egos in that group? Even the high profile players like the German internationals, Someone like Jonathan Tarr. He's not an ego. He's not a diva of a player. I don't pretend to know very much about the mechanics of the Real Madrid dressing room. I can have a good guess at what they're like, and so that's a different challenge altogether. But then you'd say Alonso. Well, Alonso's played with some of the very best players to ever play the game, and so he has as good a chance as any. Like, I mean, I. If you think about his ascension into the Leverkusen role, he took that job and succeeded within it, having never had any senior coaching experience before. So, yes, clearly this is a jump, but he's already made a quantum leap in the game as it is, so he's, he's equipped for the adjustment.
- [21:47]
Ayo Aquimulere
Yeah, it's a huge step up for Alonso, but I think he's, he's well able to do it. If anybody is able to do it, it'd be Jabby Alonso because he's, he's such an intelligent guy and he's been preparing for this ever since he was a player. He was there alongside Jose Mourinho. He was there. He built a relationship with Florentino Perez at the time. He's very good at the political part of the game. He's very intelligent guy. He's worked under all kinds of managers from Rafa Benitez, Pep Guardiola, Ancelotti, and he's always adapted to what was required in the team. He's not, he's a silky player, technically outstanding, but he's also a guy who could get stuck in. Came from Real Sociedad as well from Basque football. His dad was a. He's such a, such a football brain and such a guy who soaked up things everywhere he's been and he would have taken a huge amount from the Leverkusen experience and he showed, you know, tremendous coaching ability at Leverkusen, but that doesn't mean that he's going to go to Madrid and try to replicate what he did in Leverkusen because he'll know that that's impossible. He can't micromanage the players the way that he was able to at Leverkusen. The kind of the, the pre arranged moves of working the ball up the pitch. You have to be in this position and I'm going to play the ball here. You can't go to Bellingham and Vinicius and maybe not even Trent Alexander Arnold and say that's what you're going to have to do. But Alonso will know that. He'll know. He'll have to empower the players to play in a certain way. He'll have looked at the squad, he'll have seen the strengths and weaknesses of the squad and work out a plan if he's going to take over for the club World Cup. Whether he's able to go straight in and do it is going to be super interesting as well. And you'll know they have better attackers than they have defenders, but you'll have to come up with a plan for that. But he'll be able to do it. As Seb said there, he's such a great communicator as well. He'll have thought about what his message is going to be. He'll be able to manage up to Florentino Perez, he'll be able to speak to the guys in the dressing room, he'll know the media guys. He has to. To talk to the message that he has to send out. So I'm really excited to see how, how it works out. I'm kind of confident that he'll make a success with. But it's a huge job. It's. It's a difficult job. There are. Seb was saying there about the or hinting at the egos in the Madrid resting room for sure. You know, guys like Vinicius, like Bellingham, like Mbappe, they all, even Trent Alexander Arnold talked about wanting to win the Ballon d' Or. They just, they don't want to just win the Champions League. They want to be the best player in the team that wins the Champions League so that they can then win the Ballon d' or, which is. Is, you know, they can't all be because there's only one Ballon d' Or. So next year's Ballon d' or is.
- [24:07]
Dermot Corrigan
Literally Real Madrid all the way to top 10.
- [24:10]
Ayo Aquimulere
But you'll know that, you know, you got to start from the start. You got to hit the ground running in La Liga because Barcelona are likely to be to be better next season as well. So it's super exciting, really looking forward to it, but it's a big deal. It's going to give us plenty to be working on for sure and talking about over the coming months and years.
- [24:31]
Dermot Corrigan
Guillermo, I'm intrigued by this appointment. If it does happen, it's looking very likely. But you know how much excitement is there for Xabi Alonso's return to Real Madrid this summer, you know, and also I guess there's a narrative here about the romance of his past association with the club as well.
- [24:47]
Paul Belous
Well, yesterday the message from the club's world was mostly that this season had the aroma of an end of a cycle. So they all felt that there were something to be done, but they didn't do it because it was the end of Ancelotti's era, probably. Now what I was told is that they are planning on the next season. They want to improve what they have done. And obviously I think that what they will try to do is to invest on Xavi, to bet on Xavi with more players, adding some new faces in the squad, and it will definitely help Xavi. What makes us feel that they really are excited about Xavi's ARR, not only among the fan base, but also within the club. They all really need this type of feeling. And I think that they all agree that he's the perfect man for the job because of all that Sepa and Demos said, but also because his last season as a Real Madrid player, his last two seasons were wonderful. He proved that he's a leader. And now that the dressing room really lacks leaders, there is a lack of leadership. After Tony Crow's departure, after Nacho Fernandez departure, they really need someone who probably is still like a player because of his aesthetic, because of his fitness. And I think that they all appreciate him and I think it will help as Fidan helped back in 2016.
- [26:26]
Dermot Corrigan
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's interesting we talk about him, him being his age and maybe still being really young. I think Florian Verts did an interview where he was like, we were one man short. We asked Xavi to come and play and he was just spraying passes left and right, which I thought was so, so beautiful. But, you know, I want to talk about the man himself, actually Seb, a little bit because, you know, he opted to stay at Leverkusen and we'd been linked to teams like Bayern, Liverpool. And also if you feel he opted to stay at Leverkusen either because of a contractual conversation with or just generally trying to develop himself as A coach as a man, what do you think he's learned at Leverkusen for staying that extra 12 months, for instance, that might maybe prepare him for this journey to Real Madrid?
- [27:08]
Ryan
What a great question. I think he's made a couple of mistakes which he can learn from. I think if you look at some of the tactical approaches employed in some of the games against Bayern Munich this season, certainly the game at Alanz arena in the league where he just put all of his players behind the ball and kind of didn't want to concede a few positional, selectional blunders in the Champions League against Bayern as well, which led to that very, very humbling two leg defeat in the round of 16. I don't think his decision for staying was about learning. I think his decision for staying was based on a few things. Firstly, that there was plenty of mileage left in that team, that it was a side full of players who were yet to. Who still had some potential to reach Speech. I think also, and I don't know enough about the inner workings of Real Madrid to know how this translates, but he had a very enviable situation at Leverkusen in terms of his relationship with Rolfs and Caro. So if you ever went to Leverkusen training, particularly in pre season, those three would kind of gather together on the pitch afterwards to discuss club business and there was no interference between them. So they're all on the same page about all the decisions. They're all united about what they were doing. And that became relevant this year too, because as Alonso himself said in his press conference, and as Fernando Caro has said throughout this season, if Xavi wants to go, he can go. Like, we're not going to stand his way. We're not here to block his route into the game. We're just going to make sure that as and when that time comes, we will sit down, have a conversation and agree a strategy that works best for everybody. And that may be Alonso moving to a different club, that may be Leverkusen having the time to prepare for next season and sort of having the benefit of that relationship has allowed him to, I don't know, just have another season out of the spotlight where you can make some mistakes. You can see the consequences of not starting a forward, for instance, in a game against Bayern Munich or I think one of the themes of Leverkusen's season, and certainly one of the reasons that they are not. They were not able to kind of to defend their title, was sort of defensive sloppiness, a carelessness With Leeds, a complacency. I use that term cautiously because it guesses at the way players were thinking. But there was certainly a little bit of a hangover from last season and it was very difficult for a lot of those players to rediscover the levels that they reached. Completely understandably, because for Bayer Leverkusen, an undefeated domestic double, you can't. That's completing football. You can't do anything else that. It's just not achievable. And so maybe one of the lessons for him is when you go to a club where please jump in. If I'm wrong here, it doesn't ever seem like winning La Liga is a big deal for Real Madrid. It's like just the something that they should do and then everything else is measured against European progress. So. So for someone like Alonso, how do you go to a club where you have to keep raising a level or you have to keep maintaining the absolute level among all your players, otherwise failure in inverted commas. So I think that's one of the things that he'll have learned. How do you guard against that? What are the warning signs? Also, I know he won't be responsible for recruitment in Madrid, but what do you need to do with a successful squad to replenish it properly? What's the right balance there? How do you keep the hunger. These little sort of intangible things that as members of the media we just guess at, really, because we never ever get to see the, the. The mechanics of the football teams. But yeah, I think that these are. There are small little details. I don't think there's been any major changes, certainly not to his football or his personality, but that's maybe something he'll take away.
- [30:26]
Dermot Corrigan
Yeah, it's interesting, Dermot, because Guillermo says the Real Madrid look to want to invest in the coach. But I'm also looking at this interesting fan base who don't. Who don't seem to have time for investing. They want results very quickly. This is a fan base that boo players when they're not happy with them. I mean, do we feel like he'll to embed his ideas, his tactics, his knowledge, what he wants in this team? And I know Seb also said perhaps these aren't the team, this won't be the team of his choosing. But is there patience? Do you feel there will be patience for Xabi to whisk his magic wand?
- [31:02]
Ayo Aquimulere
Patience is not really a word that is very much around Real Madrid, but he'll know that for sure. And if he is coming into the Club World Cup. He's to do that with, with one squad. He's already will have to be thinking about which changes are going to be made, who we're going to bring in, who might have to leave.
- [31:17]
Harriet
Leave.
- [31:17]
Ayo Aquimulere
Summer is not going to be very long. It's new for everybody. This whole Club World cup, like the squad that Madrid have, cannot play the type of football that he has used so far at Leverkusen. But looking back at Real Sociedad, when he was with the youth team there, he had ideas. He fitted in with how Real Sociedad played. He played more four man a defense, he had more possession, kind of more typical Real Sociedad style play. So he'll adapt to what's needed at Real Madrid and he'll have thought about like he could have gone. We're pretty sure he could have gone to Liverpool 12 months ago, but he decided to stay, maybe to learn a little bit more, challenge himself in the Champions League and also to wait for the opportunity to come along at Madrid. Madrid had just won the Champions League, so there wasn't going to be a change there. One thing is that Madrid don't have a lot of money to spend. Maybe they'll go out and blow on a big attacking superstar, we're not sure. But they have, you know, the club earn a lot of money, but they're also spending a lot of money both on wages and especially on the Bernabeu rebuild, which has cost more money than they expected. And they're not getting as much money out of it as they expected because of the problems hosting concerts and other events, which is still to be kind of sorted out at the stadium. So it's not going to be a case that they're going to be able to go, okay, I'd like to bring in, you know, Rodri would be perfect for my way of playing, to play the back of midfield and I'd like to have two new wing backs. Maybe we'll go and get Grimaldo and maybe we'll sign somebody else to play on the right that he's going to have to make do with what he has. Maybe, maybe, you know, is Trent Alexander Arnold going to be the guy who plays the Xabi Alonso role in midfield? Can he sort that out? I'm not sure that that's possible, but. But if somebody's going to be able to do it, maybe Jabadanza is able to do it. He'll have to be smart about what he does and set the team up within the. The kind of strictures of being the Real Madrid coach and at the same time, you know, hit the ground running and win games from the start. So I'd expect there to be some movement in the transfer window, maybe some surprise exits, you know, you know, it's not Madrid. During Florentino Perez's time as president, have often sold players, you know, for big money to, to the Premier League, when unexpectedly, you know, maybe somebody will, will leave in the summer, maybe that'll free up a bit of space in the squad and some money to spend as well. So it's going to be a huge challenge, as I said before, and super, super fascinating to see, but, you know, wouldn't be a huge surprise if they go win the club World cup in, you know, a couple of weeks time again. So, so much potential for Xabi Alonso and he is. It's hard to overstate what a big figure Xabi Alonso is within Spanish football. You know, if he comes from a line of footballers, his family are huge in football. So he has that kind of pedigree amongst the football people. You know, he wins the World cup, he goes to England, does really well with Rafa Benitez at Liverpool, wins his Champions League, Liverpool comes back to Madrid, is there with Mourinho, has played under Pep Guardiola, knows everybody. And I was just laughing a little bit to myself when Seb was talking about, or you were saying as well about the players at Leverkusen being impressed with his technique. And everybody, everybody, everybody wants to be, this is my theory. Everybody wants to be Xabi Alonso. I do. He's got that charisma, he's got that just feeling. And whereas Ancelotti was like the grandfather in the dressing room, he didn't have that close connection to guys like Bellingham or Venus. It's harder for him to understand that maybe Davide Ancelotti played part of that role. But it's, you know, Davide Ancelotti doesn't have the playing career or the CV of somebody like Alonso. He's won everything. He's cool, he's, he's young, he's, you know, he's going to be able to maybe like Zidane, as Guy said that he' to connect with the players on their wavelength and get them to do things, you know, get Mbappe to run a bit harder, as Zidane was able to do with, with Ronaldo and Bensman, these guys, at least you know, at some stages or in the biggest games. So he has all that, all those positives behind him. It's a difficult job. It's you know, one of the most difficult jobs in, in world football for sure. But he, you know, everybody's kind of feels that he's, you know, one of the best young coaches in world football and the fit is just perfect. So. So let's see how it goes.
- [35:07]
Dermot Corrigan
Okay? Fantastic. Seb, I'll leave you with a thought. We all want to be Xabi Alonso. And with that, I bid you adieu. Thanks for joining us, brother.
- [35:16]
Ryan
Thanks very much.
- [35:21]
Dermot Corrigan
All right, next we'll assess what else Real Madrid need this summer to get back to the top.
- [35:27]
Seb Stafford Bloor
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akamwalere.
- [35:34]
Harriet
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- [36:26]
Dermot Corrigan
Foreign.
- [36:30]
Seb Stafford Bloor
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO. Acmelo.
- [36:36]
Dermot Corrigan
Whilst Xabi Alonso was given a heartfelt send off by Bayer Leverkusen fans on Sunday, the same can't be said for Trent Alexander Arnold. Trent is expected to be the first summer signing for Real Madrid. But given how poorly this season has gone, how much work is there to do on this Real Madrid squad?
- [36:58]
Paul Belous
A lot. We all give for granted the Trena Alexander Arnold's arrival. But apart from him, as we already reported, they are looking for a left back. They are looking for center backs, probably a creative midfielder. But as Dermo said previously, it all depends on the departures, on the sales. We will have to see if for example Rodrigo goes is leaving at some point. If an offer arrives, I think that it will depend much on this exit before Nio incomings. But the truth is that Real Madrid have been planning the next season along with Xabi Alonso for some time now. Even though he wasn't the coach, there have been time to discuss the future of the club and given that Real Madrid or the way of doing things at real, what is more reasonable in terms of thinking and planning is that they will try to to get the squad done before the Club World cup and they will focus on the world Club World cup as it was the new season, even that we know that is the last tournament of the season.
- [38:07]
Ayo Aquimulere
The one position that I think Madrid need to fill more than anything is that Jabil Alonso type position in the center of midfield. Tony Cruz, like Casemiro used to be that guy going back. Then he left for United as his time at Madrid was coming to an end. Tony Cruz filled in. Wasn't ideal position for him, but he was able to to fill it. And you want somebody who's able to construct moves from the back and also to be that holding midfielder and block opposition attacks as well, which is a very specialized role. Mentioned Rodri before, who would be the ideal kind of guy for or Xabi Alonso himself when he was a player. And that type of player is very difficult to find, especially someone who's on the kind of wavelength of Alonso himself and can also knit together Bellingham and Rodrigo and Rodrigo is still around and Mbappe and Vinicius and everybody up front. You have to see as well which of these defenders are going to come back. You know how they are when they come back. Because a lot of the guys have been out for a long time. Militao, you know, is he going to be as good as he was before. He was supposed to be a guy who's going to be able to play for Madrid for the next 10 years at center back Alaba. It's difficult to see him really coming back into the Madrid team as a, as an important player given his age and given how long he's been out. Dani Carvajal is 32. He's, he's a club captain. He's hugely influential player around the squad. But again, he's had lots of injury issues before and now he's been out for a long time and we have to see what happens with him. Rudiger's had a difficult season because he's been playing with a knee problem because everybody else was injured. He kind of forced himself to play more than maybe was ideal and ended up breaking down as well. So assuming all of those come back, then you don't need that many new defenders, but maybe you do need to sign. Guy's already saying they're a left back and a centre back for sure and then to see how the guys are going to be. So there's a good few positions to fill and there's a lot of talk around a kind of number 10. That Bellingham kind of plays that number 10 role, but he's. He's more a guy who gets on the end of things, who's gets around the pitch a lot. He's not a kind of schemer in a kind of Florian Wirtz role that's worked so well at Leverkusen. Would Madrid look at Wirtz or somebody in that type of mode? But then you're talking about 100 million euros for. For that type of a player and maybe they don't have that money to spend unless they sell somebody. So there's so many decisions. And it's really interesting what Gea says there about how they're kind of looking at the club World cup as the start of next season, season already. Maybe there will be a new team shape then we're going to see it. It's going to be interesting to see what the setup is going to be. And maybe Alonso has ideas for guys like Arda Guler who've been tremendous talent, but Ancelotti just couldn't fit him into the team. Done pretty well recently, you know, some spectacular moments in games. But is he a guy who. Maybe Alonso has an idea for him and maybe you can see something that, you know, that we can't or that I can't and is able to slot him in. Brahm Diaz is there as well. Not a really super talented, talented guy, but how do you, you know, maybe in the right setup, with the right kind of tactical structure around him, suddenly these guys look a lot better than they have done so far or able to. To contribute more than they've been able to do so far. So again, Alonso has that, that tactical brain, that experience. He has everything. So what his analysis of the squad is what, what they need, it's going to be super interesting to see.
- [41:14]
Dermot Corrigan
Yeah, I'm with you on that, Dermot. And it's something I thought about, about Guler swimming in Classico and I was thinking actually, if you see what Alonso's done with Verts, if you see what Alonso's done with certain other players, he does have a knack of making okay players even better. So actually it'd be interesting without having to spend big money. You've already got those players in the squad to see what you can actually work with at your disposal. Very quickly, Guillermo, the leadership in this squad. We spoke about Toni Kroos and what they've lacked with his absence. You think about Casemiro Leasing. Think about Benzema leaving. Over the last couple of seasons, There's a big 40 year old on the books, Luka Modric. What's happening with him, because it's interesting trying to reshape a team, but you also don't want to lose the DNA of the team as well. The people that know what it's like to play for Real Madrid.
- [42:00]
Paul Belous
Yeah. At this point we don't have news regarding a renewal, which is really news, because at this point of the season, Real Madrid usually plan the next season and they usually sit on the table and discuss with the Lions about the next season year. And as we don't have news and there is uncertainty regarding the Luka Modric and also Lukas Watkit's future, this scenario, which in the next season, Xabe Alonso won't be able to have both Luka Modric and Luka as Watkit. And it will make bigger the leadership problem, of course, and it will be Xabe Alonso's duty to give the space and to give the opportunity to the youngsters to give the next step. Right, so. So it will all depend now on the youngsters. I think it's a process that is ongoing, that is not new, of course, because Ancelotti tried to do it with Eduardo Camavinga, with Aurelian Soamini, with Jude Bellingham, of course. We reported back in September that the coaching staff show that, for example, Jude Bellingham could be one of the future leaders. Of course, Kylian Mbappe Vinicius Jr. They have maybe to give another step now, next season. And it will all depend, of course, on the next legend. And it's like the natural process. I think that all at the club understood that it's something that can be sorted out and it can be solved because they have a lot of stars.
- [43:25]
Ayo Aquimulere
Yeah.
- [43:25]
Dermot Corrigan
Does it. Does it help Xabi Alonso's cause, Derma, that he's walking into a squad that needs rebuilding in many respects. If Real Madrid had won the Champions League this season and La Liga and Copa del Rey, you know, him coming into that and the pressure of that cooker might be slightly different to someone that's actually, I guess, in a weird way, seen as someone that could help reshape the club.
- [43:47]
Ayo Aquimulere
Yeah, there's going to be a lot of emphasis on him as the guy who is the most important figure at the club. Even with Ancelotti, you know, he was the coach, but he was seen as a facilitator of the players. And even Zidane is a huge star, former player at everything. But, you know, Cristiano Ronaldo, Sergio Ramos, Kroos, Bojic, these were the big personalities, the leaders. Whereas Bellingham and Vinicius are tremendous players in Mbappe as well, but they're more. They're kind of individuals in a way. The way they play and also their, their personalities, the way they are off the pitch is a little bit more individual than somebody like Modric or Kroos or even Ramos, in his own way, was a guy who was, you know, talked to everybody in the dressing room, was seen himself as a representation of Madrid's values, of the history of the club, whereas Mbappe is a representation of Mbappe, but maybe a little bit more of Vinicius or Venice and Bellingham. Of Bellingham. But Alonso will be that guy. He'll be the, the spokesperson for the club. He's a really talented media performer, really polished guy. You know, as Seb was saying in all, all languages in bask as well, you know, he'll be able to, to, to do that job, but it will be his responsibility and there'll be a lot of that takes extra time. It takes extra planning, it takes extra brain space to be able to do that as well. But it'll be on him. Maybe they'll look to bring in a couple of more experienced players. It won't be all. All, you know, flashy big names who come in. Granit Xhaka. I'm not suggesting that Real Madrid are going to sign Granit Xhaka, but I can't say that one, surely, but he was a really good signing for Leverkusen because he was somebody who, you know, Alonso was able to connect with, who played a similar way, who. They were able to talk about football on the same level. There's not that many people in the Madrid squad at the minute who, who you'd say are obvious fits for that. And he was, wasn't, you know, he wasn't a guy who cost a lot of money or was on huge wages. So maybe Alonso has already identified players like that. Again, so many questions to, to think about and just super excited about seeing how it's going to go.
- [45:48]
Dermot Corrigan
Okay, gents. Yeah, let's, let's end it there. We are so excited about this. Derma gma, as well as Seb and Paul for dropping in earlier. Thanks so much for you guys joining us and also thank you guys for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.
- [46:00]
Seb Stafford Bloor
You've been listening to the Athletic Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroot and Jay Beal. The executive producer was Aimee Moorhead to listen to other great athletic podcasts for free. Search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
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Ayo Aquimulere
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
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