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- [00:01]
Mike Finua
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- [01:03]
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- [01:34]
Mike Finua
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- [02:09]
Danny Donachi
The athletic elite footballers are facing the threat of injury and burnout in the ever expanding football calendar, when even Arsenal's Bukaya Saka, who has played in the last 87 Premier League games, might miss a game. You know it's serious now. This is worrying for Arsenal.
- [02:27]
Adrian Clarke
Bukayo Saka has gone down.
- [02:30]
Danny Donachi
Pep Guardiola has suggested that a strike might be the only way players ensure they get the welfare they need. There is only one solution to change.
- [02:38]
Oli Kay
Something that maybe all the players decide for themselves. Stop. You have to change something and after FIFA, WEFA and all the statements they will maybe react.
- [02:48]
Danny Donachi
There are similar demands on other young stars like Vicinius Jr, Jude Bellingham and Kylian Mbappe playing much more than similar players of previous generations. Yet they continue to deliver on the world stage.
- [03:00]
Oli Kay
It's cut out by Bellingham. Bellingham has help here from Vinicius Junior.
- [03:04]
Mike Finua
He didn't need any help.
- [03:06]
Pep Guardiola
Mbappe.
- [03:09]
Danny Donachi
Oh, wow. So what can be done to improve welfare and demands on players? And will they really need to take action and stop playing to be listened to? I'm a welcome to the Athletic football podcast.
- [03:29]
Adrian Clarke
Saka. Fantastic goal. Is absolutely brilliant.
- [03:48]
Danny Donachi
All right, let's get into this one. Joining me for this is Danny Donachi, former head of medical services at Everton, working with managers such as Carlo Ancelotti and also Rafa Benitez. Also with me, journalist and former Arsenal midfielder Adrian Clarken from the Athletic Oly Kay as well. Look, Oli, this is a really interesting one, player welfare and you've definitely written about it today, an article that's actually dropped on Saka. There are players who are elite. They're also players that would love to play. Yet there is still an emphasis on the welfare of players in general.
- [04:22]
Oli Kay
The season just stretches almost all year round. Bakayo Saka. I think he had 19 days between his last match for us for England in mid June and his first day of preseason training at Arsenal. Then of course there are tours and then there's just this relentless schedule. It's not every five days, it's every three days and players are just playing again and again and again and Saka has had an incredible injury free record. But there's been this sort of growing fear and it's definitely felt more than anything by Arsenal fans that he's at risk of an injury and, and because he's playing so much and the last three games he's. He's come off injured. Just adds up to this feeling that they are playing and not just Bukayo Saka, but all players and particularly the young players who playing so much such a young age finishes. Junior Rodrigo, Jude Bellingham, Saket. They are playing too much football.
- [05:18]
Danny Donachi
Yeah. And in the midst of all of this is someone like yourself, Danny. Make sure they stay relatively injury free. Could you explain what your job entailed then while you were at Everton under Carlo Ancelotti and also Rafa Benitez?
- [05:28]
Adrian Clarke
Yeah, they weren't the only two. There was lots of other managers as well. But it's a very complex role and evolved a lot over the years. So When I started in football, there was literally me and maybe one physio and maybe one massa and nothing else. And now in a Premier League football club, you've got probably 30 staff within the performance department and you've got everything you can think of, nutritionists, chefs, physios, doctors, osteopaths, everything. So it's trying to manage all of that alongside managing the players and make sure you look after their welfare, which often gets forgotten, and then kind of manage the interaction between the manager, the players, the sporting director and then the board. So it's a really complicated role. And thinking about the players welfare, it doesn't always come top of the list.
- [06:17]
Danny Donachi
Adrian, you're nodding there and you should. You're thinking, goodness me, yeah, a lot of this rings true. I mean, as a player, are you thinking about welfare or do you just want to be on that pitch playing?
- [06:28]
Pep Guardiola
A happy footballer is a footballer that's playing games week in, week out. I think that, that players that are out of the side are very, very frustrated. It's what you're paid to do, isn't it? And it's what you're trained to do. So I think that there are two sides to it for sure. Of course players want to go and do their thing, but occasionally they might wish that they had more time for a breather. But I don't know, I. The way I sit on this is, rather than pinpoint the managers for overplaying the players, why can't we look towards the authorities? You know, FIFA have just introduced a club World Cup. You know, they've expanded the World Cup. The Champions League is going to be bigger next season, it's going to feature more games. We've seen the Euros grow in size yet, you know, they're allowed to, you know, they're the people running the game and they're the ones bringing in more football and creating less rest for the players. It's very difficult for a manager to rest a quality player like Bukayo Saka, for example. This is a guy that scores and assists in most games. And managers, of course, are judged on the results. They want to pick the best players as often as possible. So I sympathise with the managers here because, you know, they want to pick the best players and the best players want to play week in, week out. I, I would look towards the schedulers more than the managers personally.
- [08:01]
Danny Donachi
Danny, is there anything in your job that entailed you saying, do you know what, I think that this lad, I don't know how many more games he can play in the next couple of weeks. Should we maybe just rest him that this weekend and maybe see if he can. You know, we've got some important games and we're looking at soccer. For instance, we've got Manchester City, obviously, coming this weekend, having a word to someone like Arteta and go, you know what, Gaffer, I reckon let's, let's set him up for this one so we can get him ready for Man City.
- [08:24]
Adrian Clarke
Those conversations happen all the time, and obviously it depends on the culture in the club and the way the manager goes about his work, whether that's listened to or not. A lot of it relies on the data. It's not a science. So you can't say, oh, if he rests on Wednesday, then he won't get injured on Saturday. And quite often it's the opposite. That's true. You know, I remember in my time we've rested players and then they played on Saturday and they kind of lose their rhythm and they call it acute versus chronic load. It's kind of common sense. If you get used to working at a certain level and then you drop off it or go above it, then that impacts how you're likely of getting injured or not. So it's a nice idea to think that you can rest a player and then he's not going to get injured, but it doesn't always happen and you can suggest it to a manager and it will fall on deaf ears. And also, like, obviously the manager is under big pressure to win every single game and if Mikel loses a game on Sunday, that could set into, you know, like, losing the next game. The next game. He's lost his job before you know it. So it's a lot of pressure.
- [09:29]
Pep Guardiola
I'm so glad that you said that because that's, that's my memory of, of when I was playing. You're going back a bit now and we, we certainly didn't have the, the, the, the science available and the nutrition and, and all of these people on hand to, to help us. But I felt like once I got going in as a regular in the first team, I want you to keep going. And every time I had that little break, you felt like you were starting again. And I think your muscles can be affected or it certainly felt like your muscles could be affected by coming out before then going back in. Can I just ask you about the difference between young players and more senior players? Is there a physiological issue there with younger players or is it genuinely some players are just more robust than others?
- [10:21]
Adrian Clarke
Yeah, I feel like Definitely there's some player. Players are more robust than others and, and at the same time, you go through phases in your career and certain players in their younger years, they struggle more with injuries and then they come through it. And other players, it's the other end of the spectrum as they get older, you know, as they get around 30, they start to pick up injuries. And once you get one injury, a big injury, you're more likely to get more. You know, whatever we do scientifically, that's an absolute fact. I think it's true for both. I was just remembering I worked with Marco Silver at Everton and he came in pre season. He did the most ridiculous preseason you've ever seen in your life. It was like, you know, if there's recommended volumes of total distance and running that you do in preseason, it was probably four or five times the recommended volume. And we're all kind of going mad saying, oh, this is, this is a nightmare. It's never going to work. And, and that season was the season where we had the fewest injuries. So the higher load at a consistent level prepared the players really well for that season. Whereas other managers that, you know, they stick to the science and they go to a lower level and it doesn't make the players as robust for the games that they're going to play in.
- [11:33]
Danny Donachi
And Adrian, I was just thinking about your time at Arsenal. What was, what were the methods, what were the methods for training? What was the workload for you guys?
- [11:42]
Pep Guardiola
Yeah, we didn't have much support staff. There was a physio as an assistant. Physio towards the back end was a massieur. They used to send us to doctors at Harley Street. They didn't have people in house. You know, if you had an issue, you'd go down and see a specialist elsewhere. Had one club doctor, we would train hard for a couple of hours each day and that would be it. I mean, it's very, very different these days, isn't it? You've got so much more, you know, there was no such thing as the ice baths and whatnot. You didn't have that in the recovery. No oxygen chambers. You know, there is, there is so much more I think, on hand for players these days to, to re. To recover properly in between matches. So, yeah, I, I do understand it. I do understand that, that certain players and why supporters would look at Bukayo Sakura and say, come on, give it, give him a breather. I also feel that Bokayo himself is more than happy to be playing these games. He's loving it, he's. He's in the prime of his career and he doesn't want to be missing games. I don't think any players do. And on Saka, by the way, last season, Gabriel played more minutes than Saka. Granit Xhaka played more minutes than Bukayo, Saka and Gabriel Martinelli wasn't too far behind. I feel that it's a topic among Arsenal fans because there's no backup in the squad for him. That's the issue. Mikel Arteta didn't sign a right winger. There's no obvious cover. And that, I think, is the great frustration among Gunner supporters. And the reason why there's so much focus on Bukayo, is it also because.
- [13:16]
Oli Kay
He'S so young and because Arsenal have seen it with Jack Wilshire, which I, I know that, you know, different players, different bodies, it's. It's farm. There's far more, there's far more sports science impact than there was even 12 years ago. But is. I mean, we've seen it with a lot, a lot of the English players who have. Who've sort of shone brightest in their early years. Michael Owen, even Wayne, Wayne Rooney wasn't the same player in his late 20s as he was in his early 20s. A lot of the players who have played so much so young are the ones who have really sort of felt the effects of that later in their career or have been felt to have, or been assumed to have felt the effects of that later in their career. I was looking at Bruno Fernandes stats and, and for this article that we talked about on the Athletic, and he certainly wasn't playing 50, 60 games, 70 game season in his late teens, early 20s. That came in time. Rodri, Bernardo Silva. This has come in time with players once they've. Once they've joined sort of massively successful teams and broken into the national team later in their career. Harry Kane wasn't playing an enormous amount of football in his early 20s. There has to be a risk that what we're seeing from Bellingham and Saka and Vinicius and Mbappe and so on, all these great young players, they are playing so much more football at a young age than even someone like Wayne Rooney or Cristiano Ronaldo was at the same age they've been. It's so much more football. We all know it's the more intense football, longer seasons, smaller breaks. And although all the sports science is there now, that is only so useful if, if as. As Danny was saying, the managers will often think. Yeah, but sorry we need to win the next game. And. And Mikel Arteta said, no fitness coach can tell me that a top player can't play 70 games a season. And I feel like that's sort of applying a one size fits all approach where he's just dismissing the idea that Saka might or Martinelli or whoever might suffer with burnout. And it's not just Arteta, it's not just Arsenal, it's players across the board.
- [15:30]
Danny Donachi
What do you think of that, Danny?
- [15:31]
Adrian Clarke
I think there's some truth in what you're saying. And when you talk about being challenged physically, immediately what comes for me is that they're challenged mentally way more than any generation that has been challenged before. And that's partly because they're playing a lot, but also, you know, social media, all the other things that are part of being a Premier League player now. But you mentioned Wayne Rooney. I knew Wayne when he was 16. He came into Everton and he played a lot of football. But I feel like probably so did Cristiano Ronaldo at the same age. I don't know whether the fact that he played more, more football, it's more like the way he looked after himself. And I feel that players now, they've got the science and they understand how to look after themselves better. You know, the idea of Mikel and the managers and it's their responsibility to look after the players and each one is an individual and I feel like it's a big responsibility that the managers have because as Adrian said, players always want to play and because there's pressure within the, within the group, within the culture to play. A player's never going to say, I feel tired or I don't want to play. So often managers use that power to get them to play and they'll say, oh, how do you feel? And the players always say, I feel great, and they'll play them. So the best managers that I've worked with and I would, I would class Carlo Ancelotti, David Moyes, Steve Bruce are the ones that really care about the players and more than themselves, and they care about the players and the team and the long term wellness of each of those players.
- [17:05]
Danny Donachi
Adrian, I was thinking of that because obviously we like to take the pressure off the managers. For the time being, any player will say they want to play if given the opportunity. I mean, it's slightly contrasting if you think about it. On one side, managers like Michael Arteta are saying, oh, they're playing too many games. On the other side, you're saying, if you want to Be a top player. You want to score 50 goals, you need to play 70 plus games. I mean, how do you manage that? Surely you know the gaffer's telling you, or should be telling you, look, I know you're on a hot street right now, but I just need you to rest because I don't know how long this is going to last for. And how would you have taken that?
- [17:35]
Pep Guardiola
Yeah, it's, yeah, you've just got to judge it on each case on its merits, haven't you? And yeah, you'd like to think that the managers do care about their players, I'm sure, I'm sure most of them do. Some more than others. Nothing players can accept. It can accept being rested and rotated on occasion. They just wouldn't like it. It just wouldn't like it too often. And I certainly don't think that players would, would be in favor, in favor of a cap. I think a cap is, is quite frankly a little bit of a silly idea. You don't know how many matches you're going to play in a season. You don't know how far you're going to go in each competition. Manchester United played far more cup games than, than Arsenal did last last season, for example. You know, what if a player's getting, you're getting towards the business end of the season and the players approaching their, their cap of 50 or 55 games and you've suddenly got to leave them out of all the most important matches in the campaign, I just don't think that that's workable. And it wouldn't be popular with players either. And yeah, it's, I, I do, I absolutely take Ollie's point. I think that this generation, a lot is being asked of them mentally, physically as well. But you know, that's, that's the gig, isn't it? That's the job right now. That's, that's the way it is. And maybe the peak of players is going to come down to it, to a younger age. We see is 25, 26, 27, 28 as the peak of, of a player's career, but maybe moving forward for the elite players, that is going to be younger and I don't know, it doesn't sound like that's a great thing, but it's the reality of the scheduling. And I go back to that point. You know that because of the tv, because of the money, the powers that be are the ones behind this. It's not the managers. The managers haven't asked for expanded Champions Leagues, expanded Club World Cups. It's the governing bodies that we should be, you know, having a pop out here.
- [19:40]
Adrian Clarke
You're listening to the Athletic Football Podcast with IO Akinwalere.
- [19:44]
Pep Guardiola
Pep was talking about a possible player strike. And, and that being maybe the, the resolution for the players to stand up against would only be that, that 2% that would go on strike.
- [19:55]
Danny Donachi
Everyone else wants to play.
- [19:56]
Pep Guardiola
Yeah, everyone else is, is thinking, I want, I want more games. You know, for every Bakaya sacker, there's four or five players that, that feel like they're not getting enough football as, as a professional. So why, you know, a universal strike is never going to happen. But, but maybe if, if Bellingham Saka and these guys got together and, and, and said enough is enough, maybe they're the ones to make a stand. I don't know what the answer is, because if the people in charge of football want more football, we're going to get more football.
- [20:28]
Danny Donachi
But then doesn't the conversation around squad rotation then come into play? Really? You look at a player that's been used a lot, focus on Saka. You know, it's played so many games, played the last 87 Premier League games. Trust your players, trust your squad.
- [20:41]
Pep Guardiola
Of course. And yeah, I think that you could level a certain amount of criticism at Michael Arteta for not taking Sakurov in more matches, for leaving him on when he's clearly been knocked around from pillar to post during the game. He's someone that gets kicked an awful lot, isn't he? So, yeah, I think he could maybe have managed it a little bit more carefully, but he's, he's paid as a manager to win games. And, you know, you saw what happened to Arsenal the other night when Bukayo Saka went off and Fabio Vieira came on. Arsenal were significantly weaker for it down that side. Yeah, it, it is a difficult situation. I think you've got to manage it on a player by player basis. He knows that Bukayo Saka is robust. He knows he can handle a lot of football. He knows that he thrives. Look, has it affected his form? Let's ask ourselves that question. Five goals, five assists is because suffering through too much football. No, he's not. But if a manager sees that a player's form is dipping because they're playing too much football, of course it's their responsibility. And, and of course they will act because they'll see, well, he looks tired. He looks tired. His performances are jaded. I bring him out. That's. That's how a manager looks at it. And to be honest, that's how a player would look at it. If, if their form is jaded, they might, it'd be very rare, but they might go and say, gaffer, I need a rest. I don't think, you know, my experience that would happen too often. They might need to be told. But, but that, that is the scenario where you rest and rotate, in my opinion.
- [22:13]
Adrian Clarke
You know, the idea that Mikel's used soccer incorrectly, like Saka's played for over a whole season internationally for Arsenal and everything and not been injured once. So he's been doing something right because.
- [22:27]
Pep Guardiola
Many bad games in there either.
- [22:29]
Adrian Clarke
Exactly. And you know, an injury is part of the game. If there's this idea that you're never going to get injured as a footballer, it's completely false and untrue. So again, you know, I've seen players who played four or five games a season and been injured in every one of them because they're not, they're not able, they're not robust enough to live up to it and they've not had the volume to get used to it. I think, you know, for managers it's really difficult and I don't, I don't particularly agree that, you know, is misused.
- [22:57]
Danny Donachi
Saka, Danny, what about you just touched on it there, the international setup, you know, at the time of recording this, we don't know whether or not Saka is going to be playing in the next couple of England's international games, let alone whether it's going to play against Manchester City. But how much fear is there from the medical staff at a club when a player does go into international duty? And, and how much communication do you have with that team, the England team for instance, or the Colombian team or whatever, you know.
- [23:25]
Adrian Clarke
Well, that's good examples you use because with the England team you have really good communication, with the Colombian team, not so good. But I think that like, there's a lot of conflict actually between the club and the international team because obviously the national, international team want the players because they need to win their games and the clubs have got their own vested interest. They want the players to rest when they're away. So there's conflict often between the managers. But yeah, I think, you know, when you're talking about the difference between international players and non international players, there's a big gulf. You know, players who don't play internationally, they probably get a few days off, maybe even a week off during the international break. Whereas Tim Cahill is flying to Australia, playing in Australia, playing in Thailand, flying back and then playing the next day. That was 10 years ago or more. And Tim, because he was so robust and was used to that, he didn't, he didn't have any more injuries than players who were just playing for Everton.
- [24:25]
Pep Guardiola
Yeah. Danny, can I just ask you about training? Because I'm always hearing management, managers say I want my players to train like they play, you know, I want high intensity sessions. I'll be honest, when I played I didn't really do that and a lot of my, my peers didn't. It was like I loved it, I loved it, but I always wanted to keep something in reserve. But, but that was just, that was maybe just me. If we're talking about reducing the workload, shouldn't it really be around training during the week rather than the matches, which of course are the, the, the moments that really matter. That's what the players are getting paid the big bucks for not getting paid to work their socks off on a Tuesday or a Wednesday. Are they? So how much pushback is there from managers or how much understanding is there for managers around maybe reducing the load in training rather than games?
- [25:17]
Adrian Clarke
I think it's a lot better now. And for Champions League teams, for example, because they're playing every three days, you hardly do any training. You're just doing really a recovery after the game and then preparing for the next game. And in terms of physical load, you don't do a lot. Most of the physical load is happening in pre season blocks. Like I said, that prepares the players well. I know it's important that players have an intensity in training, but it's not, it's nothing like it used to be. And I think managers and because of sports science and the load, they're well used to it now. I don't think the training is an issue. Thinking about American sports, I know they're different in terms of load, but basketball players play every couple of days, it's similar. And baseball players play every day for the whole season. They play 162 games. And I know physically it's not the same, but psychologically there's a huge load on that as well, you know. But I feel like what you've been saying about the schedule in the authorities, they're the ones that have to make the difference. And then people at different levels like Pep as a manager, I think he's got more power to do to make changes than the players. So it's his responsibility really to make those changes.
- [26:28]
Danny Donachi
Danny, something I'm really keen on that you've spoken about is you've spoke about psychology, there is actually psychological welfare does play a massive part in injuries, especially when players don't play often or when players are injured. How well do clubs deal with that psychological welfare of the player? Because you said, you know, often if your psychology is not quite great or you're feeling not that great, there's a chance that you're actually prone to more injury.
- [26:54]
Adrian Clarke
Yeah, I don't feel like they'll deal with it well at all, actually, to be honest, I feel in football psychology and the psychologists, it's still really stigmatized and, you know, you don't want to be seen as the one going to see the psychologist because you're seen as weak. Whereas in other sports, like Olympic sports and rugby, it's just part of their culture. I think there's a huge, a huge area for improvement for football in that way, but, you know, they're way behind other sports. And I don't know how it's going to change because, you know, everybody speaks about mental well being and mental health and looking after that, but I feel that the harsh reality in football is that it doesn't happen. But the other thing is, quite often when I see players in the off season, I'll see them in Dubai doing a training camp. So, you know, before they'd have four weeks off and you probably have two weeks rest and then you do like a little bit of work. Whereas now it feels like they can never switch off. They never switch off physically, they never switch off mentally. So you can't even control what the player is doing moving away from the training ground. And that, that adds in another layer of complexity.
- [28:00]
Danny Donachi
Danny, is that, is that not a lot to do with just how intense it is at that top level? You know, you, you slip up from where you were last season. I remember Declan Rice coming to Arsenal and saying the extra work he's having to do to get up to level with with Arsenal, to justify his fee on one side, but also show that he's worthy to be an Arsenal player. How hard is it? Because a couple of bad games and we talk about Mikel Arteta being ruthless, you might not make that squad.
- [28:25]
Adrian Clarke
Well, yeah, it's pressure, there's pressure, but the question is like, when, when does the player ever get to switch off and ever get to relax? And the. And the answer is never. And it can't be a good thing because talking about burnout, you know, physical burnout, mental burnout, it's inevitable, but it's just the way it is now. And, you know, people are on Instagram Showing, like if you see Ronaldo doing it, then all the other players want to do it and they feel like that if they're not doing it, they're not doing enough. So it's, it's a whole societal thing.
- [28:56]
Danny Donachi
Agent.
- [28:56]
Pep Guardiola
Yeah, no, I agree completely with, with everything that we've sort of summed up there. Yeah, I would, I wouldn't disagree with a word of it. I think, yeah, look, managers with the five substitutions now in games, they could, maybe they can take, make better use of that and, and, and rest and rotate players during the second halves of games, particularly if, you know, if they've got a nice, nice healthy advantage. But really it does boil down to the, to the governing bodies of football. They have a responsibility to the players, especially to the elite players, the best of the best, to not burn them out. And, and I think that they have to try to find a better way to reduce matches rather than expand, you know, think less money, you know, more about the welfare of these guys. It might take, it might take this elite 2% to stand up against it, because I don't think it's an issue for the rest of professional footballers if they are desperately unhappy, if they fear that their careers are going to be curtailed or cut, you know, cut short because they're going to be burnt out physically or mentally, then, then we may come to a point where they stand up against it. And when, you know, when the world's best players voice their opinions against the governing bodies, maybe, just maybe, they might, they might act. So looking into the crystal ball, that could be the way to change things.
- [30:18]
Danny Donachi
Adrian, Ollie, Danny, thank you so much for your time on this. And do not forget, you can sign up to the Athletic today for just one pound a month for 12 months at theathletic.com footballpod. Thank you all for listening.
- [30:40]
Oli Kay
You've been listening to the Athletic Football podcast. The producers were Adonis Pratsides and Guy Clarke, with additional production by Mike Stavro and Jay Beale.
- [30:48]
Adrian Clarke
The executive producer was Adie Moorhead.
- [30:59]
Oli Kay
The Athletic.
- [31:09]
Adonis Pratsides
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- [31:41]
Mike Finua
Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's the show that we recommend.
- [31:49]
Pep Guardiola
Remember blowing into a video game cartridge.
- [31:51]
Mike Finua
Or taping songs off the radio?
- [31:53]
Pep Guardiola
How about Saturday morning cartoons? Hey, AOL chat room. Did we just age ourselves? Yep. We're Mike Finua and Charles McBee, two.
- [32:02]
Mike Finua
Comedians getting nostalgic and asking that nagging.
- [32:05]
Adrian Clarke
Question, are we old?
- [32:07]
Pep Guardiola
Relive the laughs, the cringes, and the nostalgia. Are we old? Podcast right here on Acast.
- [32:24]
Adrian Clarke
ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere.
- [32:30]
Pep Guardiola
Acest. Com.