Spain stunned + inside England's preparations

Summary

The Athletic FC Podcast

Episode: Spain Stunned + Inside England's Preparations

Date: June 16, 2026
Hosts: Adam Leventhal, Jay Harris, Mark Critchley
Correspondents/Guests: Paul Bayus, Laurie Whitwell, Jack Pitt-Brooke, James Horncastle

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Overview

This episode dives into the biggest talking points from the latest round of World Cup action, led by the stunning result of debutants Cape Verde holding European champions Spain to a 0-0 draw. The panel also provides insights into the struggles and surprises of the opening fixtures, managerial upheaval in Tunisia, and delivers an in-depth look behind England's camp in Kansas City just before their opener. The show finishes with discussion of football’s legendary names—Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi—as they approach a historic sixth World Cup.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Spain Stunned by Cape Verde – A True World Cup Shock

[03:35] Spain 0-0 Cape Verde: Reactions and Analysis

• Hosts’ first reactions:
  Adam Leventhal and Jay Harris express amazement at Cape Verde’s defensive discipline and emotional celebrations.

  • “It gave me goosebumps at full time when the Cape Verde players were celebrating.” – Adam [03:35]
  • Jay admits missing the first half: “As it was getting closer and closer to the full time whistle. I'm sorry, Gran, but I sort of tuned out what she was saying. But it was an incredible performance from Cape Verde.” [03:53]

• Tournament expectations vs. reality:
  The panel had expected a one-sided match, similar to Germany’s rout of Curacao, but were pleasantly surprised.

  • Mark Critchley highlights the beauty of underdog stories: “Digging into the stories of some of these Cape Verde players, I mean, Pico Lopez, Irish born, picked up on LinkedIn. Now, if that isn’t a World Cup story, then I don’t know what is.” [04:49]

• Stats and significance:
  Cape Verde committed only one foul, the lowest since 1966, signifying extraordinary discipline [05:23].
  Mark: “It also changes the complexion of the tournament going forward…maybe it's not going to be as easy for [Spain] as we thought.” [05:55]

• Reporting from Atlanta:
  Paul Bayus shares on-the-ground reaction:

  • “Bos, the Cape Verde goalkeeper, [was] really emotional about what it meant for the country...wasn’t even a professional until his mid-20s, now at 40, being the man of the match in a historical game.” [06:20]

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2. How Big a Shock? Spain’s Look Inward

[08:25] Panel Debate on the Result’s Impact

• Mark reflects on Spain’s ability to break down deep defences:

  • “Have they perhaps lost a little bit of their ability to pick apart low blocks?” [08:25]
  • “You get caught slipping once in this tournament and then suddenly your whole path through it gets thrown off.” [09:54]

• Jay shares the human angle:

  • “Vizinha…the fact that he’s 40 years old, making his debut, pulled off those saves and [was] in tears at the end. That’s what World Cups are all about.” [10:53]

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3. Round-Up: Day of Draws and a Managerial Sacking

[11:49] – [20:58]

• Multi-Draw Day:
  All four games ended in draws, tying a World Cup record [11:49].

  • Jay: “It just reinforced the feeling that Belgium’s golden generation is long gone.” [12:25]

• Egypt vs Belgium:

  • Mahmoud made Egypt’s attack “really dangerous”; Belgium “very over-reliant on Doku.” [12:25]

• Europe and South America Poor Starts:
  Only three European wins from 10; no South American wins yet [13:13], with Mark noting:

  • “It’s been an even poorer start for South America.” [13:39]

• Uruguay 1-1 Saudi Arabia:
  Saudi Arabia impress once again as genuine World Cup shocks, showing promise following their 2022 triumph over Argentina [13:54].

• Pre-match Punditry Highlight:
  Mark shares a “surreal TV moment” between Wyclef Jean and Duncan Ferguson on ITV (15:15).

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4. Iran vs New Zealand: Politics, Football & Off-Pitch Drama

[15:47] Laurie Whitwell from LA

• Flags controversy:

  • Iranian fans smuggled “lion and sun” flags into the stadium after a court upheld FIFA’s ban [15:47].

• Fractious atmosphere:

  • “Some booed the anthem, cheered New Zealand’s goals; majority supported their team.” [16:30]

• Coach frustration:

  • “Iran’s coach, Amir Galanoi, angry at being forced to leave LA immediately post-match.” [16:50]

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5. Tunisia Sacks Its Manager After One Match

[17:24] Sacking of Sabri Lamouchi

• Lamouchi: second coach axed in 6 months, after a 5-1 loss to Sweden.
• Jay: “...none of [the Tunisian fans] disagreed with the decision. They were so taken aback by Tunisia’s approach...defensive tactics, no recognized striker.” [17:52]
• Critique goes deeper: “If you’re sacking two head coaches within six months, it's clearly a federation issue.” [18:40]
• Fun fact: Lamouchi replaced by Herve Renard, a serial international manager, continuing a pattern seen at recent AFCON and with Saudi Arabia [20:09].

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6. England’s Tournament Preparations & Selection Debates

[23:34] – [34:45] From Kansas City to the Studio

England Camp Updates [23:52]

• Jack Pitt-Brooke reports from Kansas City:
  • “Big story…has been the theft of the kit, now resolved, and...a tornado warning.” [23:52]

Henderson’s Role Debated [24:29]

• Jack:

  • "Jordan Henderson is a really, really integral part...probably the most natural leader in the squad, maybe more so than the captain, Harry Kane." [24:54]

• Studio debate:

  • Jay Harris emphasizes the value of Henderson’s leadership and humor for squad harmony [25:43].
  • Mark Critchley highlights the balance between picking experience vs. future talent:
    “You need figures like that, especially if you’re going through a moment of transition.” [28:39]

Key Selection Questions [30:22]

• John Stones' inclusion is favored by Tuchel despite limited club games.
• Stones' potential partner: Konsa may edge out Guehi for “more physicality, more aggression” [29:40].
• Bellingham vs. Rodgers: “It’s got to be Bellingham. He’s just special.” – Jack [30:30]
• Gordon vs. Rashford on the left: Gordon’s friendlies may give him the edge, but Rashford has the higher ceiling. [30:56]

Referee Watch [31:14]

• Concerns over ref Clement Turpin, given previous friction with Tuchel.
  • Jack: “Elite referees should have pretty thick skins...I'd like to think that Turpin will not be particularly vexed by those comments.” [32:02]

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7. Expectations for England

[33:11]

• Simulator gives England an 11% chance to win it all.
• Jay: “Not very expectant. ...every single team at this tournament has very obvious weaknesses.” [33:23]
• Mark: “...the last decade in my lifetime watching England has been the most successful... It's just edges now.” [34:02]
• Optimism is muted but hopeful: “I said England-Spain final last week...I’m going to say England win it.” [35:34]

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8. Legendary Players and New Stars: Ronaldo, Messi, Nico Paz

[39:09] – End

Cristiano Ronaldo (Portugal) [40:10]

• Roberto Martinez interview:
  • “His attitude is as fresh as [an] 18-year-old. It’s our responsibility to use what Cristiano brings to the national team.” [40:30]
• Mark critiques Portugal’s challenge:
  • “I think it's almost too difficult, too political to not start him... it's going to be interesting to see just what level he is at against higher quality opposition.” [42:02]

Messi (Argentina) [43:22]

• Jay:
  • “He’s absolutely bossing it in MLS...it’s different at a World Cup.” [43:26]
  • “The key…is how the whole team was engineered to cover Messi’s weaknesses out of possession…” [43:52]
• Concerns about Argentina’s aging backline; team continuity is both a strength and a risk [44:45].

Rising Star – Nico Paz (Argentina) [45:17]

• Mark tips FC Como’s Nico Paz as the breakthrough young Argentine:
  • “Already a lot of hype around him…he’s right up there among players who could get a move this window.” [45:17]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Pico Lopez, Irish born, picked up on LinkedIn. Now, if that isn’t a World Cup story...” – Mark Critchley [04:49]
• “Vizinha...the fact that he’s 40 years old, making his debut...and [was] in tears at the end. That’s what World Cups are all about.” – Jay Harris [10:53]
• “It’s been quite a poor start for the European sides, but then also it’s been an even poorer start for South America.” – Mark Critchley [13:39]
• “That leaves Spain with a lot of stuff to figure out, I would say.” – Paul Bayus [06:16]
• “Jordan Henderson is...the glue in the dressing room. Probably the most natural leader in the squad, maybe even more so than the captain, Harry Kane.” – Jack Pitt-Brooke [24:54]
• “You need figures like that and especially...if you’re going through a moment of transition, which England are at the minute.” – Mark Critchley [28:39]
• “It’s just edges now. ...if Rashford’s penalty is a couple of inches to the right in the final against Italy in 2021, then that shootout ends up quite differently.” – Mark Critchley [34:16]
• “The influence of Cristiano Ronaldo as a number nine...that’s a big strength...his attitude is as fresh as an 18-year-old.” – Roberto Martinez [40:30]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:28] – Episode opens; Spain held 0-0 by Cape Verde introduction
• [03:35] – Spain vs Cape Verde: Emotional shock, analysis
• [06:16] – Paul Bayus live reaction from Atlanta
• [08:25] – Panel: Is Spain’s draw a major shock?
• [11:49] – All four fixtures end in draws; historic day
• [12:25] – Egypt-Belgium, Belgian decline
• [15:47] – Iran vs New Zealand, political tensions, Laurie Whitwell
• [17:24] – Tunisia sack their coach, AFCON context
• [23:52] – Jack Pitt-Brooke reports from England camp in Kansas City
• [24:29] – Jordan Henderson’s influence and selection debate
• [29:40] – England defensive selection dilemmas (Stones, Konsa, Guehi)
• [31:14] – Referee concerns ahead of England opener
• [33:11] – England’s expectations, hopes, and realism
• [39:09] – World Cup trivia: 2014 Golden Boot
• [40:10] – Interview: Roberto Martinez on Cristiano Ronaldo
• [43:26] – Lionel Messi’s status and Argentina’s chances
• [45:17] – Nico Paz as Argentina’s breakout youngster

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Conclusion

This episode encapsulates the drama and unpredictability of the World Cup’s expanded 48-team format, with Cape Verde’s shock result over Spain symbolizing football’s capacity for drama. The episode expertly blends match analysis, off-field intrigue, and in-camp reporting with classic pub debate and sharp wit. England’s preparation, squad balance, and selection challenges are dissected, as are the continued legacies—and the inevitable questions—of Messi and Ronaldo. If you’re seeking a comprehensive, insightful, and entertaining look at the World Cup’s early narratives, this episode is essential listening.

Transcript

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[Adam Leventhal]

The Athletic FC hi there and welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me Adam Leventhal. So we've had our big first shock of the World Cup. European champion Spain, held by debutante Cape Verde. Elsewhere draws across the board as well, including Iran twice coming from behind against New Zealand. We've had a managerial sacking thrown in as well. And we are one day out from England's opener and we will be asking whether they are ready. Here in the studio, is the Athletics Jay Harris wearing a Brazil shirt? Jay?

[Jay Harris]

Yes, crucially, with Rivaldo on the back.

[Adam Leventhal]

Ah, you didn't want to go too mainstream.

[Jay Harris]

I didn't want to go too mainstream.

[Adam Leventhal]

No, no, I like it, I like it. That's good, that's good. And Mark Critchley. Just. Just standard Garb.

[Mark Critchley]

Standard. I'm 35 years old so I don't wear replica kits.

[Adam Leventhal]

That's good, I like that.

[Mark Critchley]

I think Jay's younger than me, though. That wasn't going to be a dis, but that's fine.

[Jay Harris]

Throwing shade on me and Art.

[Mark Critchley]

Yeah.

[Adam Leventhal]

He's basically just said, you'll grow out.

[Jay Harris]

Yeah, yeah, great.

[Adam Leventhal]

I like it. Let's deal with the shock. First of all, Spain obviously being held nil, nil by Cape Verde. And just in general terms, quick reaction. It gave me goosebumps at full time when the Cape Verde players were celebrating. Your reaction, Jay?

[Jay Harris]

Well, full disclosure, I didn't watch the first half. I visited my gran. I visited my gran yesterday and then I saw it was Neil nil at half time and I thought, I've just got to put this on in the background. And as it was getting closer and closer to the full time whistle. I'm sorry, Graham, but I sort of tuned out what she was saying. But it was an incredible performance from Cape Verde to do that on their World cup debut to get a point against the reigning European champions. And I know Spain had basically the majority of the ball, so many shots on target, but I actually think that they, Kate Verd, were reasonably comfortable until Lamina Mal and Mikel Mourinho came on later on. But just what an incredible performance that they should be proud of.

[Adam Leventhal]

We were saying on yesterday's show, I think it was, Charlie was saying, you know, we'll see what happens with Spain against Cape Verde. In light of what happened with Germany battering Curacao almost, the expectation was that it was going to be, you know, maybe a cricket score, but it didn't happen. And it felt good, didn't it?

[Mark Critchley]

It felt great. I think it is given, you know, myself and a lot of other people have been quite critical of the fact that this is a 48 team tournament feel that it would water down the quality of it. But firstly the Curacao goal on Sunday and then that result last night. Props to Gianni Infantino. You got a lot wrong in this tournament, but this, those moments are what makes a World Cup. And digging into the stories of some of these Cape Verde players, I mean, Pico Lopez, Irish born, picked up on LinkedIn. Now, if that isn't a World cup story that classic, then I don't know what is. And it got me thinking, like, how am I drafting that LinkedIn message? Like, hi, Pico, hope you're well, great to connect. Congratulations on the 21 win at Drogheda. This, you know, that sort of thing is crazy, isn't it? And there's a stat. I think they'd only committed one foul in the whole game. Despite Spain having so much of the ball. That's the fewest that's on record since 1966. Such a discipline, such an organized performance and it needed to be. And it was a bit different from Curacao in that respect. He really took the game to Germany and got opened up and had that one moment with the goal. But Cape Verde have got a point and it's huge, isn't it? And it also changes the complexion of the tournament going forward. Because now you're looking at Spain and their path through the tournament, you're like, maybe it's not going to be as easy for them as we thought it would be. So great result.

[Adam Leventhal]

Let's get the reaction from Paul Bayus, who was in Atlanta to watch the game.

[Paul Bayus]

Hey guys, I'm in Atlanta and I've just seen Cape Verde holding back, staying in one of the best games in the group stage so far here in the World Cup. I'm just coming off the mix zone. I've been hearing Bos, the Cape Verde goalkeeper, speaking really emotional about what it meant for the country. What it meant for him was an even a professional up until his mid-20s, now at 40, being the man of the match of a historical game. And then, yeah, such a big game as well. That leaves Spain with a lot of stuff to figure out, I would say. I think that they missed a lot of quality, possibly on the wings. When La Minimal came in, he was a bit rusty, but it made a difference. And I think that leaves Spain with the stuff to figure out to improving the upcoming games, possibly as Nico Williams, Flamen Jamal and players like this keep building up a bit their shape, Spain can improve, but it's something that nobody was expecting in the Spain camp. The mood was really positive, really good in this first week of the World Cup. And now this will possibly unsettle a little bit what's going on around the Spain camp. Let's see what happens in the next week because the group stage is going to be more interesting possibly than many expected or just painting.

[Jay Harris]

I just want to give full credit to Paul for how professional he was then with so many people walking past him, etc. But I don't know about you two, but I can see the anger in his eyes. I think he's genuinely quite irritated, but has just done a very good job of masking it to sort of praise Cape Verde.

[Adam Leventhal]

Yes, of course, yeah.

[Jay Harris]

But I think obviously I've met him a few times. I think I get a sense of I'm pleased for Cape Verde, but secretly I'm baffled that Spain did not win this game.

[Adam Leventhal]

Obviously, you know, Paul mentioned there having to bring on Lamina Mal, having to bring on Williams as well. That was clearly not the plan. When you saw Dani Olmo being drawn on as well, you know, is it down to a lack of preparation? Is it down to maybe complacency? Just thinking that this is going to be an easy ride? I mean, and where do you rank it as well in terms of shocks of the World Cup? Is it the greatest ever?

[Mark Critchley]

Okay, I'll take that in two parts then. So I think the first one on Spain, I think most of them, most of us had them as favorites going into this tournament. I watched that performance yesterday and thought, this is a Spain team that's quite different from other Spain teams that we're used to in the past. You know, they've got that element of directness to their play. They're good in transition. Three players like Yamal and Nico Williams, have they perhaps lost a little bit of their ability to pick apart low blocks, to have a lot of the ball and find space and overloads and that kind of combination play. I still think they can do both. And I think we saw that the Euros, and I think that's why a lot of people rank them as favorites coming into this tournament. But it seemed to elude them yesterday. And, you know, but again, like we used to, though, we used to, we're used to big nations sometimes starting slowly and if you're comparing it to the World cup shocks of the past, I mean, Saudi Arabia, Argentina, in the very last World Cup, France, Senegal. France went out in the group stage that year, didn't they? So it's not always that necessarily a team will lose and then go on to become champions or get off to a slow start. I don't think it affects Spain's chances too much. I would be concerned about the low block issue because I think teams have seen how to play against them and you had the. I enjoyed the customary Rodri post match crash out that he has. After any time they play a team as a low block, it's like he's like, they didn't create anything. It's like you're playing a team that's got the population of Sheffield, you know, like, of course they didn't create anything, but they did.

[Adam Leventhal]

But on that point they did, didn't they? Well, they didn't. They didn't. What's a nice way of saying it? They didn't do anything to the bed when they got the. When they got the ball.

[Mark Critchley]

No, sorry, anything. But Spain did. And I think that's like, they still had like 27 shots away. And you play that game 100 times over, Spain probably win it a few on a few occasions. And I think that's why there shouldn't be any overreaction, really. But it's coming back to what I said in the previous answer as well. You get caught slipping once in this tournament and then suddenly your whole path through it gets thrown off. And you're looking at it now. And they've got quite an increased chance, I think, of meeting Argentina in the round of 32 simply because they've drawn this game. You know, that is the sort of thing why you need to be on it from every single. And we've seen it already this weekend with Switzerland against Qatar as well, who. I'm not saying Spain were complacent, but Switzerland certainly were for a lot of that game. Just not taking their chances, not putting the foot on the throw and they get punished. And that, I think that shows the importance of just, you know, playing at your absolute maximum every game. Even if you think, look, we can probably beat Cape Verde without Yamal or Nico Williams or whoever.

[Adam Leventhal]

Virginia is a great story, isn't it? And you were mentioning your gran, visiting your gran earlier on. There's a granny connection there as well, isn't there?

[Jay Harris]

Yeah. So let me get this right. So his actual name is Jose Mar. Jose Evora Diaz, of course. Yeah. But he is called Vizinha because he used to run home to his grandparents if things didn't go his way. And Vizinha's Creole for granny. What a beautiful story. But the fact that he's 40 years old, making his debut at this competition and has pulled off those saves and you're in absolute tears at the end. As Mark said earlier, that's what World Cups are all about. You sort of realize that sometimes because in my lifetime, England have qualified for pretty much every single major tournament about apart from Euro 2008. You take these moments for granted. And then when you see a country be given that sort of special moment, it sort of just reminds you why we all love football. So I, I think AFCON 2023 was possibly their first Afcon as well. So they're still very new to major international tournaments. They didn't qualify for this year's AFCON as well. So they are really sort of fresh to this type of experience. So that just gives them even more credit in the bank for, for pulling off the result that they did.

[Adam Leventhal]

The third smallest nation to ever appear at a World cup population around 500,000. So they've got their first point and everyone I think is, is now going to be fans of them as the the tournament progresses elsewhere. As we mentioned, all four games resulted in draws, the joint most on a single day in the history of the tournament. There was also on 15 June in 1958. Critch would have known that because he's a quiz master. We'll have more on the quiz later on. Egypt denied that first World cup win by Belgium. Did we learn anything from that one?

[Jay Harris]

I think it just reinforced the feeling that Belgium's golden generation is long gone. I looked at that lineup before kickoff and looked at the defense in particular and thought there was a point in time where they struggled to get company. Verton and Alderweirald in that back four and Vertongen would shift out to left back and they just don't have the same quality anymore. And you know, obviously it was a fantastic strike from ashore to give Egypt the lead, but I thought Mahmouche looked really dangerous and he kept him getting behind the Belgian defense. I think playing Charles de Quteler, he's not a natural number nine. He's more of an attacking midfielder. So that didn't quite work for Belgium. It felt like they were sort of very over reliant on Doku to sort of weave past three or four players and create something. So I think it just reinforced that Belgium are not the force that they were a few years ago.

[Mark Critchley]

I think the interesting thing from it as well is a point that a lot of people made, to be honest. But it's only three European wins from 10 games so far the tournament and those Wins were against Curacao, with Germany, Sweden demolishing Tunisia, then sacked the manager, and then Scotland against Haiti. Of course, the three games that you would expect the European teams to come out on top in broadly. So it's been quite a poor start for the European sides, but then also it's been an even poorer start for South America.

[Adam Leventhal]

Indeed, no conmebol side to win so far. Despite you trying to sort of lift Brazilian spirits.

[Jay Harris]

Brazilian spirits.

[Adam Leventhal]

You're wearing a blooming shirt.

[Jay Harris]

Yeah, but I'm just. I'm getting in the World cup vibe, man. I love to, you know.

[Adam Leventhal]

Of course you are.

[Roberto Martinez]

Of course you are.

[Adam Leventhal]

Let's get back on track in terms of confederations, obviously. Yeah, we. We mentioned about South American teams not winning yet. Uruguay one. Saudi Arabia won. Saudi Arabia looked good. Obviously, when Uruguay got back level, they could have gone on and won. But we mentioned Saudi Arabia in the context of a World cup shock in the last tournament, beating Argentina. They look like they could be much more of a force in this tournament. Having seen what they did against Uruguay.

[Mark Critchley]

My favorite bit of this game, and maybe our international audience wouldn't have seen this, was actually pre match on itv when Duncan Ferguson got Schoolboy aired by Wyclef Jean. I don't know if you saw this.

[Adam Leventhal]

No, tell me, tell me.

[Mark Critchley]

Wyclef Jean was doing pre match punditry on itv, of course, the Whiteclefshean. The Whiteclef Jean of the Fugees, who is of Haitian extraction. So he was bigging up Haiti and then suddenly realised that he was in the studio with Duncan Ferguson. I don't think he quite realized who Duncan Ferguson was. So he was laying into him about the refereeing decisions in the Scotland game, then reached out to shake his hand, pulled it back, went psych. And I honestly thought there was gonna be, you know, potential char rap sheet live on television. International audience may not have seen. I thought it was the best thing that Wyclef Jean's done since Perfect Gentleman, to be honest.

[Adam Leventhal]

Fantastic. I missed that. Oh, good. Thank you for bringing that to our attention worldwide. Right, let's just speak about the other game that we had yesterday. And Laurie Whitwell was focused in the build up to Iran's preparations for their game against New Zealand, obviously due to the fact that we've had really difficult situation for Iran in the build up to the tournament. Let's get his verdict on how the game went and all the instances off the field as well yesterday.

[Laurie Whitwell]

It's been a long day, an enthralling Day, lots has happened, not least the football at the Sofi Stadium, where I've just got back from Iran to New Zealand too. But, yeah, it didn't just start on the pitch. He started off the pitch, actually, half a. I was in the courthouse in Los Angeles where FIFA were trying to uphold their band on Iranian fans bringing the lion and sun flag into the stadium. But the judge ruled in favor of the FIFA lawyers, who said that because it's a private entity, a private company, you know, stadium isn't a public space, so to speak. You know, they have to buy a ticket to get in there, that they would be allowed to prohibit the flags from being brought in. So that was the end of the matter. No, it wasn't. A lot of fans were able to still sneak them in, smuggle them in, and we saw quite a few before kickoff during the game as well, where they're showing their allegiance, I suppose, to a regime change in their country. There's also a few, actually, that booed the national anthem and also cheered when New Zealand scored. So it's an interesting atmosphere, but the majority of Iranian fans is a big Iranian diaspora in Los Angeles. They were cheering for their team. Then you think the battles are done? The courtroom, the pitch? No, in the press suite as well. The head coach of Iran, Amir Galanoi, he took up the baton because he was frustrated, angry at the fact that they had to leave Los Angeles tonight. They're going back to Tijuana. He said that they wanted to stay an extra night, recover, go back at lunchtime tomorrow. But they were told by FIFA, by the US Government, he didn't exactly say that they had to leave immediately. So it's a story that will run and run, but that's Iran kicking off their World cup in the United States with a 22 draw against New Zealand.

[Adam Leventhal]

Yeah, thanks to Laurie. And obviously, as he said, it is a story that's going to run and run. Iran's next game in the group is against belgium on the 21st. And that game once again is in LA. We mentioned it earlier on. I wanted to get your take on it, Jay, on the managerial sacking that we've. We've seen after Tunisia got hammered 51 by Sweden. Sabri Lamushi gone. Just one game. Why?

[Jay Harris]

Well, this is actually the second time this year Tunisia have sacked their head coach. So they got rid of Sammy Trebelsi after AFCON. They were eliminated in the round of 16. But the Muchi hasn't even got to the end of the the competition. So he's Only been in charge for five games in total and he only won one of them, which was a pre tournament friendly against Haiti. But I spoke to a few Tunisian fans after the well just before the news was confirmed. It was an open secret that he was going to go and none of them disagreed with the decision, which caught me by surprise. But they were just so taken aback by the way that Tunisia approached that game against Sweden. Really defensive tactics and basically playing without a recognized striker, no sort of structure in the way that the team was supposed to build up. And I sort of said, well, do you have any hope that you'll reach the knockout stages now? And he said it, it's over. So after one game of the competition they feel like their tournament's completely done and they're going to have to wait another four years. But interestingly what they also said is that if you're sacking two head coaches within six months, it's clearly a federation issue and it's a deeper lying problem. And one thing that I think Lamucci tried to do, but maybe try to do it too quickly is bring in a lot of youth to Tunisia's squad. So he gave debuts to Khalil Ayari, this 21 year old who spent the last year on loan in PSG's academy. 18 year old Vancouver Whitecaps forward Ray and Alumi. So there's a real pivot for him to targeting younger players to try and refresh the squad. But giving all these players an opportunity at World cup is a big ask and I think it not think it did completely backfire and they were outclassed by Sweden. I think you're seeing a Yari whose dad is Tunisian, scoring twice for Sweden, not celebrating the first goal, celebrating the second goal. Probably add added a little sting to it, but what a remarkable story. To decide to get rid of him after one game of the competition is unheard of.

[Adam Leventhal]

Yeah, and it is really unusual in terms of a World Cup. Only three managers had ever been sacked during a World cup before and weirdly they all happen within the space of a few days at France 98 and there was a Tunisian manager thrown in there as well, just for old times sake. South Korea and Saudi Arabia also sacked their managers, but at least they did it after two games.

[Jay Harris]

We should also point out that Lamucci has been replaced by Herve Renat, who has managed so many different countries over the years. I think he had a spell in charge of the France women's team, but he's probably best known for winning AFCON with Zambia I think he had a spell in charge of Ivory Coast Saudi Arabia at the last World cup when he famously told the players to eat the grass. And I'll give you a random sort of niche fact because they're sort of linked, but when Ivory coast sat their manager at Afcon 2023, they wanted to appoint Herve Reynard but couldn't get the deal done so they gave it to Amersfeh. So history has sort of weirdly repeated itself where Amanda has been sacked mid tournament and Herve Renard has been the one to step into the vacancy.

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[Adam Leventhal]

Let's turn our attention now to England. They kick off their tournament against Croatia on Wednesday evening. And joining us now to discuss how their preparations are going is our England correspondent, Jack Pitt Brooke, stationed at their training base in Kansas City. There has been plenty going on, hasn't there?

[Jack Pitt Brooke]

Yeah, I've really enjoyed it. I've been in Kansas City for a few days now. I've never been here before. It's a lovely place. The people have been great. The English, it's a bit weird for England because they're in Group L, so they're one of the last teams to start. So it's been a really long lead in to that. The big story really, I think, has been the theft of the kit, which I think has now been resolved. And away from the pit, away from football matters, there was a tornado passing through or close to Kansas City the other day, which meant that everybody in the city got warnings on their phone to hide indoors. So the England team had to stay inside their hotel and I sheltered in the basement of my Airbnb hosts.

[Adam Leventhal]

Oh, very good. Safety first. I like it. This is interesting, Jack. I wanted to talk to you about the Jordan Henderson situation and you've been writing about him and his importance to the squad. Obviously, there was a lot of talk about the dressing room dynamics under Thomas Tuchel. Just how much of a big role has he played for the group, do you think?

[Jack Pitt Brooke]

Yeah, Jordan Henderson is a really, really integral part of the England squad. You know, Gareth Southgate obviously left him out for Euro 2024, which I think was a big mistake. It was a mistake that Thomas Tuchel remedied almost as soon as he took over. He is the glue in the dressing room. He is probably the most natural leader in the squad, maybe even more so than the captain, Harry Kane. Speak to any England player, they'll tell you how important Henderson is. Henderson actually gave a press conference at the England media Center on Sunday evening here in Kansas City. And he's such a good talker and was able to explain his role in the squad. And I think that even if we don't see a huge amount of him on the pitch, he is so important to everything England doing behind the scenes.

[Adam Leventhal]

Jack, I just wanted to get the. The guy's thoughts in the studio on this. I mean, Jay, let us come to you first. Is this a wasted spot or is it wise management to have an old head in there?

[Jay Harris]

Well, me and Mark were having this discussion before we started recording, and I guess the. The dilemma that Tuchel's presented with is if Henderson. If you're. If let's say Henderson's a fourth choice central midfielder, right? And the alternatives were Morgan Gibbs White or Adam Wharton. If none of them are going to play that much, what's more valuable? Bringing Wharton and Gibbs White as a possible option or the intangibles that Henderson does, which we will never see, but we're made aware of through interviews with the players, etc. And I do think that sometimes having a leader of Henderson's caliber is really crucial for maintaining standards, keeping people positive, focused. I know that the video's sort of gone viral of Jude Bellingham and Morgan Rodgers talking about if you asked anybody in the squad who they'd want to be here, Henderson would be in everyone's top five because he's funny. And I think that's also a crucial element of it. These players, if they reach the final, will be away from home for six, seven weeks. There'll be lots of travel. If Henderson is not just an older figure they can look up to for leadership, but can give you a little bit of comic relief, then that's important. When you're sort of on top of each other day in, day out, and it can get very intense and it can get very stressful to have someone there who can put his arm around your shoulder and crack a couple of jokes or two, which, which lighten the mood, I think is very important. But there's no. There's nothing. There's no statistic that. That measures like comic relief or anything like that. You know what I mean? So it's hard for us from the outside looking in to see how valuable he is, but it sounds like stuff he does on a day to day basis, which is probably really simple, has a massive impact.

[Adam Leventhal]

I'm tempted to just make you argue against having Jordan Henderson in the squad, but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

[Mark Critchley]

No, I can try. Even if it's not quite what I believe. I should preface this by saying I'm worrying that I'm very tucle pilled. I'm like looking at the squad and have zero issue with any of the players. And then I always feel that that's often the case during a tournament. And then when you look back like several years later and you look at the squad, you're like, well, why was he there? And it doesn't quite make sense anymore, but it's almost. It just captures a moment in time and I think, think, look, if I was going to make the argument against having Henderson there, it would be. And I agree with a lot of what you say, Jay. If I was going to make the argument against, I would say you sometimes need to get over the edge. A change in the last 20 minutes of the game in extra time. And if it was Adam Wharton on there with his ability to break lines, with his passing. Jordan Henson's passing is one of his greatest attributes, I've always thought. But if you have a player like that, can they make the difference? And that is what a lot of people will feel. And you can see it now, England going out in the quarterfinals disappointingly, and people saying, well, why wasn't this guy there? Why was Morton there? Why didn't we have somebody who could change things from the bench? It's the clearest argument against Henderson's selection, I think. But I was on this podcast last week arguing for it, so I can't really argue against it now. And I do think that

[Adam Leventhal]

you speak

[Mark Critchley]

to people within the game. I remember being behind closed doors, Covid games where you could hear Jordan Henderson constantly on the pitch, just barking orders, rallying teammates on. You need figures like that and especially need that. I think if you're going through a moment of transition, which England are at the minute. This is their first major tournament under a new manager after almost a decade, a really successful decade, we should say. You want continuity, you want some of that within figures who are in the squad, who know the place, who are like any successful club side would have. You'd have players who know how it works, you'd have veterans in the squad. It's normal, it's usual. You don't just pick the 26 most informed players and call that a squad. And I think that's why Jordan Henderson's there. It's probably partly why John Stones is such a prominent role as well. And I think it only makes sense to have that kind of continuity.

[Adam Leventhal]

Well, Jack Critch just mentioned there about John Stones. He's only started five games for Manchester City last season, but sounds as if he's favourite to start in the game. So what does that mean for Mark Gay and ESRI Konsa, then?

[Jack Pitt Brooke]

Well, look, the thing you've got to realise here is that Thomas Tuchel absolutely adores John Stones. He loves Stones and he has always given Stones every possible chance to prove his fitness. If he thinks that Stones is fit enough to get through the 90 minutes against Croatia, Stones will play. It's as simple as that. I guess the interesting question is whether it's Gehe or concert alongside Stones, should Stones play? And while I think going into the tournament, lots of the expectation was would be that it would be Stones and Gahi, it increasingly sounds. And look, nothing certain yet. Nothing's been confirmed. It sounds like it might be concert over Gehe alongside Stones, which would be interesting. Maybe that's to do with a bit more physicality, a bit more aggression from Konsa, but I think that is the interesting selection question at this point.

[Adam Leventhal]

And Jack, in terms of a few other selection dilemmas, let me just throw a couple at you. Bellingham against Rodgers, who wins?

[Jack Pitt Brooke]

I think it's got to be Bellingham and I think it's going to be Bellingham. Look, Rogers is a great player. He's had a good season with Villa, has actually played really, really well for Thomas Tuchel. You know, some of the best performances under Tuchel have been with Rodgers as the number 10. But I just think Bellingham is just special. He's, he's, he's, he's got that X factor and I think that he has done well enough in the friendlies. That is going to be Bellingham against

[Adam Leventhal]

Croatia and on the left wing, Gordon or Rashford.

[Jack Pitt Brooke]

So I'm a big Rashford guy. I would go for Rashford in that role. I just think Rashford, I think Rashford's top level is better than Gordon's personally. But Gordon was really good in the friendlies in Florida beforehand. So some. There's kind of a suggestion that maybe that's going to edge Gordon just ahead of Rashford. So I'm not quite sure on that one.

[Adam Leventhal]

And Jack, it wouldn't be an England tournament if we weren't getting obsessed about the referee and fearing that he's going to have some sort of agenda. Well, there is a potential issue there with Thomas Tuchel and the referee for the Croatia game, Clement Turpin. He has history with Tuchel going back to the. The Bayern Munich days. Back in 2023, he sent off Tuchel in a tie against Manchester City. And he was pretty damning in his criticism. He called him Grade E. He said he'd give him one out of 10. He was absolutely terrible. It's unbelievable at this level. Yeah, it was quite stinging criticism. There is a chance, I suppose, that this sort of criticism could be playing on Turpin's mind, isn't there?

[Jack Pitt Brooke]

Well, Henderson was asked about this in his press conference on Sunday evening and he gave a very diplomatic answer, basically saying that we can't control the referees. And, you know, you just got to have every faith that the referees that have made at a World cup will be really good. So I think on that basis, I think you have to hope that Turpin would not be too offended by what Tuchel said. You know, I think referees, if they are elite referees, they should really have pretty thick skins. You know, they should be able to take quite a lot of stick from. From managers and players and everyone else over the years. So I'd like to think that Pan will not be particularly vexed by those comments.

[Adam Leventhal]

Fingers crossed. Hey, Jack, thank you very much indeed. Just a quick word from. From you guys in the studio. Obviously we'll see France play against Senegal later on. England will then play. That'll be the big boys that we've seen. Obviously it didn't go to plan for Spain. Our simulator model has England with an 11% chance of winning the World Cup. They've gone very, very close in the last two tournaments. How excited, how expectant are you both?

[Jay Harris]

How excited? Reasonably.

[Adam Leventhal]

Okay, cool.

[Mark Critchley]

Can you be reasonably excited? Feels like a yes or no. Either or.

[Adam Leventhal]

Okay. How expectant are you then?

[Jay Harris]

Not very expectant. I think the key difference compared to, as I mentioned before, my generation growing up and sort of seeing England repeatedly get knocked out of the quarterfinal stage by Brazil or Portugal or whoever is a sense that lots of these players have now been in. In multiple euros finals or have got to the semi final of a World Cup. And I think that sort of now it's an experience that you need when you get to the latter stages of a World Cup. We didn't have previously and we have

[Adam Leventhal]

now, so you should be really optimistic.

[Jay Harris]

But anything can happen at a World Cup. I think every single team at this tournament has very obvious weaknesses. There's no sort of perfect squad.

[Mark Critchley]

You know, there's this question of whether England can get over the line. I think to get over the line, you've got to be at the line. And that's actually the hard part, you know, putting in the processes, putting in the systems, putting in the work, building a culture and a.

[Adam Leventhal]

You're sounding like. You're sounding like Thomas Ticklepill.

[Mark Critchley]

Tickle pill. I tell you, I'm Ticklepill.

[Adam Leventhal]

You were full on.

[Mark Critchley]

But that's the hard work. And honestly, I think that's the last decade in my lifetime. Watching England has been the most successful decade of my lifetime and since 66. And I think it's just edges. It's just edges now. It's, you know, if Rashford's penalty is a couple of inches to the right in the final against Italy in 2021, then that penalty shootout ends up quite differently. But I think at 2024, the edges kind of went England's way and the performances perhaps weren't quite there and still got to the final. And I don't think they would have deserved to win that tournament. But you can look at the last three tournaments. Certainly they've been at that line and it's about getting over it. 2018 was a little bit different. I think none of us expected that. But there's been a trajectory which is upward but then also steady. I think the big question is now you've got a transition from Southgate to Tuchel. You're seeing a lot of different players in the squad now than there would have been previously. But I see a consistency in wanting there to be a culture, wanting to be a harmony within the group, wanting people like Jordan Henderson or Dan Byrne or whoever, players some people wouldn't pick but are important for that culture. So I am hopeful. Ish. I said England Spain final last week and I'm just going to have to put that Spain prediction down to a clerical error. So I'm going to say England win it. Yeah.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

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[Adam Leventhal]

It is now time for our do you know Daily trivia day six. Are you ready? So say your name if you know the answer. Those are your buzzers. Your voice is your buzzer. Okay, here we go. Do you know who won the World Cup Golden Boot in 2014 scoring six times?

[Jay Harris]

Thomas Miller.

[Adam Leventhal]

It's good, but it's not right.

[Mark Critchley]

How's it good then?

[Adam Leventhal]

Because it was amongst my multiple choice options.

[Mark Critchley]

I didn't know we were getting multiple choice options.

[Adam Leventhal]

No, I was gonna give you them if you were struggling.

[Jay Harris]

Oh, okay.

[Adam Leventhal]

But old fingers first over there, buzzed in. So, you know, that's the situation we're in. So let me repeat the question.

[Mark Critchley]

I'll go. I'll just go.

[Adam Leventhal]

Okay, go on.

[Jack Pitt Brooke]

Go.

[Mark Critchley]

Heguain.

[Adam Leventhal]

Incorrect message. Incorrect.

[Mark Critchley]

Close up.

[Adam Leventhal]

No, I thought you were asking me whether you were getting closer.

[Mark Critchley]

No, no, no. Miroslav closer.

[Adam Leventhal]

No, no, no. Where's a. I'll give you a clue. Similar colour jersey that you're wearing. Not a Brazil jersey.

[Jay Harris]

Wasn't like Spain in an away kit.

[Mark Critchley]

Oh, James Rodriguez.

[Stamps.com Advertiser Voice]

Correct.

[Adam Leventhal]

Well done. Well done. Do you want to know what the pecking order in the Golden Boot that was that year?

[Mark Critchley]

Not particularly.

[Adam Leventhal]

I'll tell you anyway. James Rodriguez was six. Thomas Muller with five, Lionel Messi with four. And that was the year that Rodriguez, of course, scored his famous goal against Uruguay. So it was James Rodriguez in 2014. So well done to Critch. Well, look, we can't talk about the World cup without speaking about the goats. Cristiano Ronaldo, 41 years young. Lionel Messi, 38, still going strong. This year is going to be their sixth World cup, more than any other players in history. The reigning champions, Argentina, they kick off their campaign against Algeria in the early hours of Wednesday morning. That's here in the UK Portugal in action later on Wednesday against Dr. Congo. Now, ahead of the tournament, James Horncastle caught up with the Portugal manager, Roberto Martinez. On the topic of Cristiano.

[Jack Pitt Brooke]

This is Cristiano Ronaldo's sixth World Cup. Roberto, many people thought that the last

[Jay Harris]

World cup in Qatar was going to be his last. What would you say to the people that believe Portugal needs to move on from Cristiano Ronaldo?

[Roberto Martinez]

The influence of Cristiano Ronaldo as a number nine. The movement, the timing of the movement, the finishing, the way he opens spaces, the way that he can influence the defensive backline of the opposition. That's a big strength. So, obviously, one thing is we're not going to be part of the conversation. This is part of. Everybody who loves football can talk about the iconic figure Cristiano Ronaldo. We can always speak of the player that comes to the national team. He's the captain and is an example, and his attitude is as fresh as 18 years old. That is playing for the national team for the first time. So it's our responsibility to use what Cristiano brings to the national team. And from this point, he gets valued and he has to compete for his role on a daily basis. This is not anything different to any other player in this dressing room, but it's a very different, different conversation between the iconic Cristiano Ronaldo, that the longevity in the game is objective and it speaks for itself. It's not part of any conversation. And then you got the player that now is for us the top goalscorer of this national team.

[Adam Leventhal]

Critch, I'll come to you. On Cristiano Ronaldo. I wasn't quite sure in the end what Roberto Martinez was saying. It sounded to me a little bit like he's still available and I've got to pick him. Basically, to me, that seemed to be the subtext.

[Mark Critchley]

I think that is the subtext to the latter stage of Cristiano Ronaldo's Portugal career. Look, I'm not surprised that he's still playing. He's still starting. I think it's almost too difficult, too political to not start him. I do think this is a curious inflection point at the moment, because he wasn't starting all the Games in 2022 in Qatar, I was at a few. I remember where he got dropped in. Gonzalo Rama scored a hat trick and it was the. Almost like this is the end and it's still not the end and he just still keeps going. But that was three and a half years ago now. He spent basically the entirety. He was released by Manchester United during that tournament, spent the entirety of that time in Saudi and no goals at Euro 2024. Scored in the Nations League semi final. Final, we should say as well. So it's not like it's completely bust, but completely bust about Cristiano Ronaldo. It's ridiculous. But I do think at this point it's going to be interesting to see just what level he is at when he's up against high quality opposition. Essentially, you can definitely build a team around a megastar. We saw that the last tournament. We saw how it worked. It was geared around an individual. But I think in Messi's case, personally speaking, I think that individual submits himself to a collective and the collective wins tournaments. Is that the case with Portugal and Cristiano Ronaldo in the year 2026? I'm not too sure.

[Adam Leventhal]

Do you think Jay Messi can be as effective as he was in 2022?

[Jay Harris]

Well, I think, like Critcher said, the. The question mark is about where he spent the last couple of years of, of his career in the mls and suddenly sort of, can he suddenly re. Summon the same level of performances in an international tournament? We should say that he's absolutely bossing it in. In mls. He's still one of the best players in that. In that competition. I don't think that's a huge surprise. It's definitely different doing it at a World Cup. He doesn't actually play for Argentina that much these days. And I think there was a question mark about. I'm certain everybody thought that he was going to play at this World cup, but it wasn't really confirmed until quite late on. I think the key thing with Argentina, which Chris sort of mentioned, is the way under Lionel Scaloni, that whole team was engineered to sort of COVID Messi's weaknesses out of possession so he could sort of do whatever he wanted and the rest of the team would sort of do his dirty work. And I think Paredes was like the, the prime example of that. He's sort of like his. His bouncer. And so it'd be intriguing to see if they can do that again, especially because there's not been that much change in that team. So four years on, some of those players a little bit older certainly have question marks about a sense about partnership of Otamendi and Romero or if it's Lisandro Martinez instead. So we'll have to wait and see what happens.

[Adam Leventhal]

Okay, we've spoken about the. The golden oldies, but let's just focus for our Star of Soccer series on one of the new generation for Argentina from FC Como. Paz. Nico Paz. He's someone that a lot of people are talking about. We saw Enzo Fernandez in the last tournament being the player, the young player that everyone was talking about. Is Paz a contender to do the same crit?

[Mark Critchley]

I think so, Absolutely. I think there's already a lot of hype around him. Already though I heard people talking about him in conversation as the next Messi. I can remember the conversations about who's the new or the next Maradona. And it was like Carlos Marinelli at Middlesbrough, Andres de Salisandro at Portsmouth. Franco de Santo, famously of Wigan, was even in that conversation. So I look forward to Nico Paz's two years on loan at Fulham in 2028. But no, I think he's a much better player than that. I think people have seen the evidence of that. Como this season, breakout season last year doubled his goal tally. This year comes from. Came from Real Madrid and they're interested in buying him back. There's some speculation of whether they've got a buyback clause on that. He's hot property and I think that he. Again, we're picking our players who are at this World cup who could be getting a move this window last week. I think Nico Paz is right up there among them.

[Jay Harris]

But we also know the answer as who's going to be the young player in the tournament. Critch told us about this last week and it came true.

[Mark Critchley]

What can I say?

[Jay Harris]

Oh, yes, yes. And you know what else was said in that enlightening conversation? Someone said that Ismael Saibari was one to watch and that he might get a move this summer. But I wonder who that was.

[Adam Leventhal]

Yeah. So you win some, you lose some. Because you also said South Africa were going to be really good.

[Paul Bayus]

Right.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

I'm glad.

[Jay Harris]

I was just going to move on from that.

[Adam Leventhal]

Exactly. Okay, Jay, thank you very much. And Mark as well. Thanks to you earlier on. Thanks to Jack, to Pol Laurie as well. Reminder for you that the athletics coverage throughout the World cup is completely free on our app, so do not miss out. Get stuck into everything that's on there right now. You can watch or listen to us wherever you get your podcasts. Do subscribe to the YouTube channel as well if you haven't already. We are closing in on 300,000, so let's hit that landmark if we can, during the tournament. Emma Peyton is going to be back with you tomorrow. I'll see you soon.

[Paul Bayus]

Foreign.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

This episode of the Athletic FC is brought to you by Hotels.com when you're booking a hotel, here's a simple question. Why wouldn't you use hotels.com it really is all in the name. As a member, you save up to 20% on hundreds of thousands of hotels around the world and earn rewards on every single stay. Which means the trips you're taking now help pay for the ones you're already dreaming dreaming about. And unlike some other places, there are no blackout dates. So when you want to travel, your rewards are ready to go. So whether you're planning a grand adventure to follow your national team around North America this summer, or whisking your special someone away for an escape because you've been glued to the football for weeks, make sure to [e-mail] and start earning rewards. Because when it comes to hotels, it's simple. Hotels.com it's all in the name.

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[Adam Leventhal]

Again,

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