Loading summary
Transcript111 lines
- [00:00]
Rob McElhenney
This episode is supported by FX's welcome to Wrexham. Rob McElhenney and Ryan Reynolds. Welsh football club has made history, becoming the first team ever to achieve three consecutive promotions. Watch history unfold this season as Wrexham climbs higher in the pyramid. With their eyes set on the championship league, the stakes get higher with a new level of intensity, competition and costs. FX's welcome to Wrexham. Thursdays on FX, stream on Hulu.
- [00:30]
Ryan Reynolds
Race the rudders. Race the sails. Race the sails.
- [00:34]
Rob McElhenney
Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching.
- [00:36]
Jack Pitt Brook
Over.
- [00:37]
Ryan Reynolds
Roger, wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution?
- [00:41]
Laurie Whitwell
Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title and more. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started today@LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions.
- [00:59]
Raj Panjabi
Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.
- [01:01]
Noah Michaelson
And I'm Noah Michaelson, also from HuffPost.
- [01:04]
Raj Panjabi
And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [01:11]
Noah Michaelson
Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.
- [01:19]
Raj Panjabi
And we're talking like legit credible experts.
- [01:21]
Noah Michaelson
Doctors, PhDs all around, superheroes from HuffPost and Acast Studios. Check out Am I Doing It Wrong? Wherever you get your podcast.
- [01:34]
Rob McElhenney
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [01:40]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimwaleri. Tottenham Hotspur got the job done in.
- [01:46]
Ryan Reynolds
Bilbao and Spurs have won the Europa League. It's salvation for spurs in Bilbao and after a 17 year wait, they finally win a major trophy.
- [01:57]
Ayo Akimwaleri
So what does the trophy mean for spurs and Ange Postecoglou? And where does defeat leave Ruben Aberin and Manchester United? Here with us today, all the way out in Bilbao, we have our Tottenham Hotspur correspondent, Jack Pitt Brook and Manchester United correspondent Laurie Whitwell. Gents, really appreciate you joining us. I doubt either of you have had much sleep, But Jack Tottenham's 17 year trophy drought is actually over. That sounds so surreal. Is this a dawning though of a new age for them now?
- [02:30]
Jack Pitt Brook
Yeah, it does sound very. It felt very surreal watching it. It felt very surreal watching the celebrations as soon as the final whistle went, you know, Richarlison running around with his head twirled around his shirt. Richarlison running around with his shirt twirled around his head, not his head twirled around his shirt. That doesn't really make sense.
- [02:46]
Ayo Akimwaleri
That's lack of sleep. I completely understand, mate.
- [02:49]
Jack Pitt Brook
Yeah. Vicario collapsing in tears, all the players jumping on each other and so on. It was an. It was a truly amazing moment. I think every. Everyone associated with Tottenham who was there to witness it will very grateful to have been there because this has been such a quest for them. You know, they haven't. It's not just they haven't won a final since 2008, they haven't scored in a final since 2008. Every fan I spoke to said even just a goal in this final would at least give us a moment to take home with us. And they got all that and more. I mean, what it means for a new age of Spurs. I mean, we don't even know who the manager's going to be for next season at this point, and I think their league form shows that there's still an awful lot of work to be done. But I think at the moment, the night itself, the occasion, the moment, the celebrations, those are the things that people are really, really treasuring.
- [03:36]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah, the pictures. I've been sent loads of videos and pictures from loads of spurs fans. Sadly, Laurie, not so many from Manchester United fans that this was a big chance, wasn't it, to salvage the season. Actually, for both teams, it was a big chance to salvage the season. But, you know, you guys recorded a talk of the Devils immediately after the game last night. I can't imagine there was much optimism at the end of it.
- [03:59]
Ruben Amarim
No, it was very despondent. Yeah. As you say, the ramifications for both United and Spurs were clear and that's that. That jeopardy made it a much more intriguing final. Now, the actual football on display didn't really capture the imagination. I think it kind of lived down to expectations. Spurs had a game plan, didn't they, where once they got the goal, they would sit deep and just clear the ball. Romero was in chief villain mode, on the wind up and certainly Harry Maguire took issue with that after the final whistle. But the kind of overall picture for United is a bleak one because it change the finances hugely. It alters what they could probably do in the transfer market and who would be attracted by the club, even though it does have this great stature and heritage. The current position, 16th in the Premier League and no European football to offer with a manager who's still trying to implement his style of play. And clearly there are issues with it again, as we saw last night. So, yeah, I think this would have been a get out of jail free card for United, a plaster over a wound. But as it happens, the wound is still very much open and scarred and so yeah, I think that that is going to take some time to get through and get over for United.
- [05:14]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah, it's fair to say. I think regardless of Bruno Fernandes form coming into this match, I think it's 19 goals and 19 assists this season. Spurs seems to have nullified him. Bruno Fernandes, you know, in the first half, Oli K points out on the Athletic Live blog, only completed 11 first half passes with one of his four incompleted ones, the one that SA intercepted prior to the Johnson goal.
- [05:40]
Ruben Amarim
Well, he actually made two bad passes in that passage because he tried a crossfield pass that got intercepted. Then Casemiro sort of won it back and gave it back to Fernandez and then he tried a small ball back again and SAR intercepts and drove on. Yeah, he was, he was fantastic for spurs, obviously putting the cross then for that move that Tottenham scored from. But it just felt like Fernandez didn't quite have the right gear about him. He sort of was making curious choices and then not executing them correctly like. So even, even that pass that gets intercepted, you're sort of wondering why he's trying that. You know, it sort of seemed the wrong way to move the ball. So yeah, real disappointing night for him because I think a lot of United fans had put stock in him being the guy that could drive them on and this being the moment that he'd finally win a European trophy with United and kind of get that confirmation of his status as a cult figure, you know, bordering on a legend for United and. And it just did not happen at all. And so yeah, I mean, what that for his position as well, you know, some interesting quotes from him after the game in terms of, you know, looking at his own future and if the club want me to go, then, you know, maybe that'll be the course of action. Which was sort of the similar notes that he was striking last summer, but ultimately he then had talks, was convinced to sign a new deal. Not that much longer an extension actually, but just a sort of rubber stamping of perhaps his salary and you know, the fact that he wanted to continue. But you know, that offer from Al Hilal is there, is genuine. You know, in terms of the transfer fee. You know, you got United probably thinking well that's you know, 80 odd million for a 30 year old that, you know, maybe we do need to reinvest. I mean, I think it would be a big, big call obviously if he was to leave. He's such an integral part of this United side. Okay. He's not perfect, but I feel like he has driven the side on numerous times this season and that would be a huge departure to. To change things around. But clearly a lot of players now, I think will have these kind of decisions to make.
- [07:32]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Jack. You know, a lot was made into, I guess, how much more robust the spurs midfield would be. Losing players like Kulusevsky, Madison, for instance, that they lacked creativity but seem to be a different type of midfield. And how do you think they coped in this match? Because some might say perhaps they actually did the job, overpowered Manchester United East, Basuma, Bentancourt did their job.
- [07:56]
Jack Pitt Brook
Yeah, I think that the absences of spurs most talented midfielders, Madison, Kulasevski and Bergbal, it wasn't as much of a blow as it might have looked because Tottenham haven't really played possession football for the last few rounds this competition. They've played, you know, what some people. To a lot of people, it looks like kind of Jose Ball. You know, they're happy to sit deep. They don't even want the ball. They'll go long if they have to, they'll waste time if they have to. They're incredibly ruthless. They're very efficient. They basically turned everything that we thought we knew about Angeball on its head over the course of this campaign. So, yeah, of course they miss having their best creative players, but they're not really trying to create that much if you watch them play at the moment. And so I think having like, it's completely built on having Bissouma and Benton Kerr sitting in front of the back four protecting. Both of whom I think have been brilliant in the last few European games. Bissouma, especially, because he started the season so badly. He looked like he was kind of done at Tottenham, but he's been absolutely heroic for the last few of these matches and was brilliant again last night. But if that's how you're going to play, I mean, Pat Matassar I thought, worked really, really hard last night. Great running without the ball, good cross, a dangerous cross which led to the only goal of the game. And so I think given that, you know, Kulasevski I think would have played otherwise, wasn't really looking fully fit before his knee injury. And given how they wanted to play, I actually think that the personnel they had on the pitch were fully appropriate for. For the plan that Postecoglou had for the team.
- [09:25]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah, for sure. We have to talk about Brennan, Johnson, Jack, and you know what a pivotal moment this was for him. And remember earlier on in the season, him having to turn his social media off after lots of abuse from. From fans. In particular, him scoring well, still debatable. The winning goal to bring a trophy back to this club, I mean, that was pivotal, surely.
- [09:48]
Ryan Reynolds
SA delivers the cross in towards Brennan Johnson. It's in. It's first blood to Tottenham in the Europa League final. And it's Brennan Johnson, the leading scorer, who delivers him.
- [09:59]
Jack Pitt Brook
Bilbao. Yeah, I still can't really work out how. How the ball went in. Neither can I. I've seen about 10 replays of it.
- [10:05]
Ayo Akimwaleri
I've looked at it several times.
- [10:06]
Jack Pitt Brook
A lot of people have said to me that Luke Shaw handballed in. I don't even know if that's. If that's true or not. I've not seen sufficiently good replays.
- [10:14]
Ruben Amarim
Look like it hit his hand, didn't it?
- [10:15]
Jack Pitt Brook
But I think it was always like. But look, it's fitting that a game this poor should be settled by a goal this ugly. It would have felt wrong, I think if somebody had scored a screamer or beat 10 players and put it in the bottom corner or a brilliant team move, it just. It would have been jarring. It wouldn't have been right.
- [10:31]
Ayo Akimwaleri
It would have been great for the spect, let's be honest.
- [10:34]
Jack Pitt Brook
But I do think that Johnson's contribution to that goal is just making that kind of poacher's run, you know, trying to get in. In front of a defender, trying to just get on the end of a cross. And that's really what we've seen from him all season. You know, he's this strange player, Johnson, because he's not. He's not a winger who beats people, really, or a winger who takes. Who takes people on 1v1, but he's brilliant at getting on the end of things and he's brilliant at making that little dart into the box. And even though yesterday wasn't exactly a clean finish by anyone's standards, it was definitely the important goal that he's ever contributed to.
- [11:07]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah, for sure. I mean, also Van De Ven's goal line clearance, Vicario's save. You know, all signs were sort of pointing to spurs taking that, especially the latter part of the game. Right. Laura, you pointed out in the athletics coverage how Harry Maguire had said pre match he didn't want to be resorting to being thrown up front. I mean, that's precisely what happened. I mean, United were so desperate, they threw everything at it. I said the last 10, 15 minutes of that match, but it wasn't to be.
- [11:36]
Ruben Amarim
No. And this is something that I Think is a fascinating point to pull out because ultimately Amarin still was in that sort of 3, 4, 2, 1 system and Maguire was the centre forward and Zerk's. He then dropped to number 10. And it was shuffling things around rather than, you know, changing the formation to really go attacking and just try and get men in the box. There were times when they got, you know, four or five men in and that's where Luke Shaw got his header. He sort of. He burst in late and Vicario pulled off a really good save. But it wasn't sort of something that happened by design repeatedly, which it could have done because spurs were, you know, sat back. So I think that's something that Amarin will have to address. He said he won't change his approach. You know, this is his idea and he'll keep going with it. But I feel like that felt like it was slipping away from United even though they were sort of having some okay moments in the second half. So that's something that I think just Alex Ferguson used to, you know, chuck a load of guys on and change formation a bit, you know, towards the end of games. And you know, obviously even Eric Ten Hag did it, you know, against Liverpool in the FA cup last season. And this is something that I just wanted to kind of touch on with Jack, actually, because you mentioned spurs changing their approach to the Europa League. I sort of wondered if that's a freedom that Postecoglou had from his philosophy, from his approach the high line because he perhaps felt that he was going to be departing at the end of this season anyway. Amarin maybe has to stick to his principles because he thinks if he changes them now and he's still the manager, then the players will just disrespect him. Do you think that the spurs approach was down to Postecoglou? How much perhaps the players putting their input into it because it is such a huge departure from Postecoglou saying this is who we are, you know, in terms of that high line to now this picture of Tottenham. And I wonder how much Amarin can draw from that, if anything at all.
- [13:19]
Jack Pitt Brook
So I think that it's a really interesting question that. And we've something that we've been wondering about quite a lot. But so the way that poster Cogni sells it, of course is he's not going to say, oh, I gave up on my. On my philosophy because I realized it wasn't going to win. He says, well, you know, I've always. He said to me, like I asked him about this in the press conference last night, actually. And he said, I've had a lot.
- [13:37]
Ange Postecoglou
Of success in my career and not just sort of winning leagues, but also in Australia. I grew up playing finals football to win the championship. So knockout football is always different. You know, all my teams have always played a little bit different in knockout games because you know that you've got to have a real clear game plan. Big games come down to moments. You've got to limit the moments of the opposition. You've got to change your approach and the players embrace that because, you know, that was always going to be our approach in.
- [14:07]
Jack Pitt Brook
I totally get that. I do think that the kind of night and day difference between what people, you know, might call Angebbull and the way they've won this tournament is so stark that partly it's to do with, I mean, he admitted this last night, like ever since January, which I think when it was clear their Premier League season was just totally sunk, that they prioritized Europe. I also think that I do wonder in part whether all the speculation around his future has almost made him even more ruthless, made him even more efficient, because he probably thinks, well, I can still win this trophy for the sake of my legacy, but also I don't really need to keep building foundations for next season. You know, if you're not going to be there next season, you don't need to institute a long term plan anymore. It's almost like if you know you're going to get sacked, you almost become akin to a manager on a short term deal. You know, like a kind of, I don't know, Gus hidden winning the FA cup at Chelsea in 2009 or Di Matteo Champions League 2012. That kind of scenario where it's literally just about the trophy a few months ahead of you and doing everything you can to get there.
- [15:10]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah. On a lighter note, Jack, am I right in thinking there weren't enough UEFA medals to go around for the spurs team? What's this? I only just found this out before we started recording the pod. Did Sonny actually get his medal in the end?
- [15:22]
Jack Pitt Brook
Yes. I think the problem is that obviously, like ultimately everyone gets a medal, but there's only so many medals at the podium. And I think Tottenham, I mean, I. I think from memory Tottenham sent up like a lot of young players and fringe players. So that means that by the time all the, you know, the fringe players, and of course you've got staff as well, have gone and got their medal from Sephirin and then when Son. Son is obviously gonna lift the trophy because He's a club captain. By the time he gets up there, all the medals have been given out. Although I'm pretty sure I saw a medal with. I saw a photo of son with a medal. If son is flying home without a medal, I would be very surprised. He might have to borrow one of somebody else.
- [15:58]
Ruben Amarim
They get 50, so he should have a medal. Yeah.
- [16:00]
Ayo Akimwaleri
I don't know, you guys would have seen it, but you made a joke on TNT Sports. The broadcaster over here saying, maybe I might not just make my flight tomorrow. Who knows, because I've been celebrating so much. But I hope he definitely is on that plane. Right, next, we'll ask what this trophy means for spurs boss Ange Postecoglou.
- [16:18]
Ruben Amarim
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akamwalere.
- [16:25]
Rob McElhenney
This episode is supported by FX's welcome to Wrexham. Rob McElhenny and Ryan Reynolds. Welsh football club has made history, becoming the first team ever to achieve three consecutive promotions. Watch history unfold this season as Wrexham climbs higher in the pyramid with their eyes set on the championship league, the stakes get higher with a new level of intensity, competition and costs. FX's welcome to Wrexham. Thursdays on FX, stream on Hulu.
- [16:55]
Ryan Reynolds
Race the rudders. Race the sails. Race the sails.
- [16:58]
Rob McElhenney
Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching.
- [17:01]
Jack Pitt Brook
Over.
- [17:01]
Ryan Reynolds
Roger, wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution?
- [17:06]
Laurie Whitwell
Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title and more. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started today at LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions apply.
- [17:23]
Raj Panjabi
Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.
- [17:26]
Noah Michaelson
And I'm Noah Michaelson, also from HuffPost.
- [17:28]
Raj Panjabi
And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [17:35]
Noah Michaelson
Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.
- [17:43]
Raj Panjabi
And we're talking like legit, credible experts.
- [17:46]
Noah Michaelson
Doctors, PhDs all around, superheroes from HuffPost and Acast Studios. Check out Am I Doing It Wrong? Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [18:00]
Ange Postecoglou
I'll correct my set. I don't usually win things. I always win things in my second year. Nothing's changed.
- [18:05]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah, that was Anj Postel Koglu talking with Sky Sports back in September after defeat in a North London derby. Jack, he backed himself and actually he prophesied it. Here he is, second season, he's won A trophy he kept to his word. Absolute mastermind, surely.
- [18:22]
Jack Pitt Brook
Yeah. Incredible. I was thinking. I've been thinking a lot like, you know, he said that a long time ago, and it's been used a bit of a stick to beat him with ever since. And I think there's always been a bit of a subtext, which is, if you don't win that trophy, you're gonna look very silly. And so for him to actually do it, for him to not just win Tottenham's first trophy in 17 years, first European trophy in 41 years, but to also back up those words, the words that I think a lot of people like to think were a kind of arrogant boast of his. I. I think seeing him with the trophy at the end, I just thought he must be feeling a level of vindication and satisfaction never registered in human beings before, because he has, in fact, delivered on that we saw at the end, like Reguillon and Madison, neither of whom played. I don't know if they made the banner. I imagine probably not, but they were carrying around this huge banner, which is a picture of Postecognu's face with those, like, Photoshopped shades, holding a Photoshop Europa League, saying. I always say. I think it was something like, I always win trophies in my second season, mate. And so Possicoli didn't even need to say it because he had Reggiano Madison holding up that banner for him. Yeah.
- [19:30]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Do you know, I was thinking about this when I. When I. This clip's obviously been doing the rounds this morning, and, yeah, I wonder if this was Jose Mourinho back in the day, saying, I always win a second trophy, you know, a trophy in my second year. I don't think we'd have batted an eyelid. Do you think he suffered from being a bit of an outsider, Jack, in terms of, you know, Australian guy trying to coach in the Premier League and people questioning his tactics and all that kind of stuff?
- [19:53]
Jack Pitt Brook
Yeah, I do. I think that his. He's obviously come in with a very different CV from what you would normally get of a manager of a Big Six club. You know, when. If you look at recent Tottenham appointments, you know, Conte had won the Premier League with Chelsea, Mourinho had won the Premier League, both won things all around the world. You know, Mourinho's won two Champions Leagues and all the rest of it. And now Poo has won an awful lot. You know, he's won with various different. I think he's won with, what, three different teams in Australia? I Think he's won with Yokohama Marinos in Japan. He got Australia to a World cup, won a domestic treble with Celtic and won the title in his first season as well. So he has succeeded everywhere he's been. But I think because we are generally in this country, the opinion that if you want to manage a big six team, you need to succeed in one of Europe's big five leagues really just does feel very unusual. I feel like he's almost being judged by a different standard and therefore I think. And he clearly thinks this because he brings it up quite a lot like he is.
- [20:51]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Well, that's why I asked that question. He spoke about not having any leg up and things like that. Right.
- [20:56]
Jack Pitt Brook
He mentioned it yesterday. I think he said, you know, because a lot of my achievements are on the other side of the world, people think they don't really count as much. But I think that it's because of the sort of varied global CV he has that I think that that kind of second season trophy thing has become almost like a stick to beat him with. Because there's an unspoken implication here, which is that, that you might win your second season in Scotland or Australia or Japan, but winning in your second season in England is different. And that's always been the unspoken implication there.
- [21:31]
Ayo Akimwaleri
I guess the bigger question is what happens next really with him because I think he's skated around that question. Every journalist has been asking him, do you want to lead this team next season? Do you see yourself here next season? What did he make of that?
- [21:45]
Jack Pitt Brook
Well, I don't think he's ever shied away from this question. He's been very frank about it and he's been very frank about the fact that he wants to stay. He said that night before the game, he said that after the game. I mean it's always been. It's been my expectation for a while that he would definitely go whatever happens in the final. But now that you see him with the trophy, I mean, it is impossible not to wonder whether we might be entering a 10 hag scenario where the trophy leads to a big U turn. I genuinely, I mean they only won, they only won the thing 12 hours ago. So at the moment I don't know know if there is going to be a U turn, but stranger things have happened. That all said, I don't think it's going to get any better for postecoglou than last night, but no, I, I genuinely don't know at this point.
- [22:32]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah, I mean, Laurie, that is the question in it when Eric ten hag wins a couple of cups actually for Manchester United and you're thinking, is he going to stay? Is he going to go? He ends up staying. I mean, there's a lesson here, isn't there?
- [22:43]
Ruben Amarim
Yeah, I mean, you know, that on reflection, went wrong for United sort of sticking with the guy, but they'd undermined him. Right. So I think that was always going to be difficult thing for him to come through and progress beyond the structure. United at that point was developing was, you know, sort of emerging. It was new people getting to know each other and. And did they feel totally confident in making such a big call to change manager and appoint a new one at that particular moment. Whereas at spurs, obviously you've got Daniel Levy there at the head of the club, who has been that consistent for, you know, a couple of decades. Right. And so, you know, he, I'm sure, will have of come to terms with it in his own mind. And now it's kind of all on him really, I suppose. Does he change his mind or not? And so, yeah, I think, as Jack says, though, it's a different thing, isn't it, when you actually see a guy with a trophy, and particularly when it's been one that's for a club like Tottenham, they haven't had all that often. I mean, 2008, right, last trophy, and you have to go even further back for a European trophy. So it'll stand in history, that. And so does that color what you then do with the person who's won it? So, yeah, I mean, clearly thinking back to the United scenario, it was a crazy situation. I suppose you haven't had that with spurs, where there's not been these links with managers, where they've obviously been speaking to them directly. I mean, maybe there's been conversations behind the scenes, but with United last year, it was so public, so many people were spoken to and it just leaked out all over the place. And I think that really did damage 10 Hag's status. Even though they tried to change his coaching stuff and back him in the transfer market to give him that kind of reputation, I think ultimately it was doomed to failure. So at least you haven't had that. I don't think too much with Tottenham, although I know Jack's reporting in the Athletic about different people that they're looking at. So, yeah, it will be really fascinating to see what happens. There's obviously a big team party at the spurs hotel last night where they're all sort of singing his name, I'm told. And to Jack's point, you Know, having that banner out on the pitch, I think that's quite big, right? Having players sort of demonstrably showing support for the manager. So yeah, I mean I'll be really intrigued watching it given the similarity of the United's perspective.
- [24:53]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah. Brennan Johnson made a really interesting comment at the end of the match. I was talking to the on pitch reporter here, Jack, and he spoke about, you know, this could be a perfect mic drop moment for Poster Cogley where they asked him about the manager's future. I mean we've spoken about it on the pod, how there is buy in in the dressroom and I can imagine definitely buying in the Europa League. But you know, if he leaves, you know, how do you think that, that those in the dressing room would, would feel about Postecoglou? Because look, the league form hasn't been great and he's been very honest Postecoglou and said I'll take that on, mate.
- [25:24]
Jack Pitt Brook
There's a real bond between Postecoglou and the players and I think that you can see that from the way that Postecoglou really convinced them that they could win the Europa League. He convinced them they could win the Europa League by playing a different way. He basically persuaded them to become a different team in the last few months and it's been, it's been so different watching the way they, they, they've really got their way through every round they've that they face in this competition and that gratitude, that warmth, that trust, that respect is only going to be heightened by the fact they've now got a medal around their necks which they, you know, which they didn't have before that all said, you know, football, football's a pretty cold place sometimes and I'm sure that if a new if it, if it is club announcement, thank you Ange on Monday. And then a new manager comes in and I'm sure they'll all show up for pre season raring to go and looking forward to the Champions League because you know everybody that football does move on really fast and people are always looking forward to whatever the next challenge is. That's just the nature of the industry and frankly nobody knows that about the football industry better than Postecoglou himself.
- [26:27]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah, I don't want to rub it in Laurie, but you know, Tottenham Hotspur now have Champions League football. Manchester United sadly do not. But then you look at teams like Newcastle, Aston Villa, Crystal palace and Forest who also have European football next season.
- [26:41]
Ruben Amarim
Look at this salt you sprinkle on over this wound. It's about time enough to squeeze.
- [26:49]
Ayo Akimwaleri
But I mean, the bigger one really is just how, how big a job is this?
- [26:54]
Ruben Amarim
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Because I think, you know, in counterpoint to poster Koglou Amarin's reputation, you know, this, this could have given him that, that boost that platform to, to inspire belief in his players. You know, there was some strong comments afterwards, actually, from Luke, Sean, Diogo dala, who said, 100% he is the guy to lead us. Even Bruno Fernandes, amid his kind of questions about his own future, was, you know, gave backing to Amarin. And okay, players backing manager is nothing new, particularly when they can see that's the way the wind is blowing from the executives. But it did strike me, you know, just how strong they were. And certainly, I don't know if that's absolutely the case across the board. I mean, certainly Alejandro Garnacho had some kind of pointed words to say in his. You know, there was other Instagram posts from family members that suggested he was very, very disappointed to miss out on starting the match. And certainly some of the stuff that Amarin said publicly about being the worst team in history, I don't think that went down well. So that's some, you know, that, that might have repercussions in the summer. But I think that I kind of didn't really fully answer your point on Maguire going up top, did I really? Ayo. But that kind of thing I think is, is. Is awkward for, for a manager, you kind of having to repeatedly go to that, well of, of putting a center back up top. Now. Okay, it might actually be a, a strategic move, you know, given his aerial ability, and clearly scored, you know, again against Leon, that dramatic goal he scored at Sanford Bridge, although it was ruled out for offside. So I can see the, the logic, but it's just a bad look, isn't it? And he might say, well, listen, I haven't got the players to actually then change things up. So you've got Hoyland, who, you know, obviously struggling for form isn't really, I don't think that kind of, I don't know, that muscular physical presence that it seems Amarin likes up front and then Xerxes the alternative. And he was only just coming back from an injury and he's, he's kind of more of a, you know, 10. 9.5. I think United are still trying to figure out exactly what role he is anyway, so maybe he's just like, well, this is the squad I've got, so I have to put a centre back up top. And we can't really judge him fairly on that, but it does then emphasize just how important this summer market is. And you know, there are still questions. Do these people that are in charge now really have the absolute credentials and will they get it right? You know, it's a question that I think we are fair in asking.
- [29:09]
Jack Pitt Brook
Yeah.
- [29:09]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Okay, well, let's move on because next let's get a little deeper as to what defeat means for Ruben Amarim.
- [29:17]
Ruben Amarim
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Accumulere.
- [29:24]
Rob McElhenney
This episode is supported by FX's welcome to Wrexham. Rob McElhenny and Ryan Reynolds. Welsh football club has made history, becoming the first team ever to achieve three consecutive promotions. Oceans watch history unfold this season as Wrexham climbs higher in the pyramid with their eyes set on the championship league. The stakes get higher with a new level of intensity, competition and costs. FX's welcome to Wrexham Thursdays on FX, stream on Hulu.
- [29:52]
Laurie Whitwell
Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? Well, with LinkedIn ads you can know you're reaching the right decision makers. You can even target buyers by job title, industry, company seniority, skills. Wait, did I say job title yet? Get started today and see how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started@LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions apply.
- [30:22]
Raj Panjabi
Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.
- [30:25]
Noah Michaelson
And I'm Noah Michelson, also from HuffPost.
- [30:27]
Raj Panjabi
And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [30:34]
Noah Michaelson
Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.
- [30:42]
Raj Panjabi
And we're talking like legit, credible experts.
- [30:45]
Noah Michaelson
Doctors, PhDs all around, superheroes from HuffPost and Acast Studios. Check out Am I Doing It Wrong? Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [30:58]
Ruben Amarim
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Acmoler. If the board and the fans feel that I'm not the right guy, I will go in the next day without any conversation about compensation. But I will not quit again. I'm really confident on my job and as you can see, I will not change nothing in the way I do things.
- [31:18]
Ayo Akimwaleri
That was Ruben Amarim defiant in his post match press conference after defeat in Bilbao. Now Laurie, you know there's another conversation here, another narrative that that sort of signifies that Manchester United not having European football, those extra matches gives Ruben Amarim a bit more time to actually hopefully get some players in that suit his style and actually work with these players to get his ideas and tactics informed. So actually, by the time they are ready to graduate into the big leagues again, they are a ready team.
- [31:49]
Ruben Amarim
I mean, that is the silver lining, right? It's obviously then got to be acted on and has got to benefit. That was something that he mentioned before the game. Was it a psychological tactic to alleviate a bit of pressure? Was it his genuinely held belief? I think probably the latter, to be honest, because he's been pretty brutally honest with a lot of what he said and not all of it has been the kind of sort of strength that you'd expect from a manager to speak. He's shown vulnerability. So I think he was being honest in the sense of. Actually, I would really love to have more time on the training pitches coaching these guys. I mean, United will have 38 Premier League games and then a couple of cup matches to start off with. If they go out early in those competitions, they could have 40 matches next season, which is obviously leaves so much time to attempt to get your style of play across to these players. But, yeah, I think ultimately United obviously would have preferred to have the revenue that the kind of standing in football's ladder that European football brings. But, yeah, I think that is probably a genuinely held belief by him that actually I could do something on the training pitch with these guys without having the kind of difficulties of midweek action.
- [33:00]
Ayo Akimwaleri
You talked about pressure briefly, but how much pressure is he in for next season to actually do something? Because, you know. Yeah, I mean, no Champions League football or European football, but it's still got to work, mate. There is still a bigger plan at hand.
- [33:14]
Ruben Amarim
Yeah. I mean, his statement last night, it was interesting. Was it no conversation about competition. I was trying to think, is that just meaning that you've already. You already know what the competition would be because it's in your contract, so you don't have to have a conversation? Or does it mean you would actually go without any money? I mean, I think he'd probably be the first manager in history to leave a club if he was to, you know, sacked without compensation. So I don't know. I'd be fascinated to know how that actually works out if it comes to it. But I think he's aware, isn't he, of the fact that you've got Sir Jim Ratcliffe at the top of the club, who, you know, brought in a Sporting director in Dan Ashworth and then, you know, got rid of him basically five months into the job. So if that can happen to him, you know, what kind of job security really does a head coach as he is rather than a manager have? Clearly he's got that support from Obarado, the chief executive who was integral to his appointment. Jason Wilcox TECHNICAL DIRECTOR I'm told they have a really strong relationship, but there obviously comes a point when results will dictate and if United start the season as they've ended this one, it can't go on for much longer because it's been so bad. I mean, you look at what Eriksen, Haag left the club and you can totally understand why that happened. 8th position, they're going to finish 16th or maybe even 17th. I mean, that would be a dread to think what the atmosphere at Old Trafford on Sunday will be like. The kind of lack of any energy you'd think. I mean, what have they got to play for? Whereas Villa are obviously trying to get into the Champions League. I think that could be quite a show of friction from the stands where they backed him a lot this season and the players. But this might be turning point potentially. Let's see. It was interesting actually, after the full time whistle where United fans left on mass right, they didn't want to see spurs lift a trophy. They'd seen their team play pretty poorly or not really. They had a couple of chances, didn't they? But it wasn't like it left all out there and so they wanted to applaud them off. They left pretty quickly. But then a few that did stay, there's a few hundred. And they, I think wanted more from the players and Amarin to kind of acknowledge their travels, the kind of massive cost that they spent and the time to get to Bilbao. And eventually they did, the players, they did a kind of sort of lap, a semicircle of applause for the fans that had stayed. But they obviously just wanted to get back to the dressing room. But it was an awkward look, to be honest, at the end of a season where that connection between the fans and the players has been sustained despite the bad results.
- [35:40]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Jack, from the outside looking in, how convinced have you been with Amarim considering he took over this club in November?
- [35:47]
Jack Pitt Brook
Well, it's impossible to be convinced when you watch them play. Like, he's a really. I find him to be a very interesting and like persuasive talker in theory. I admire his sort of absolutely blinkered commitment to his style of play. I guess the problem is that you know, there's a reason that like Liverpool didn't go for him last year and it's because if you, if you're committed to playing 343, whatever happens, you need a squad calibrated to that purpose. And I, I think the United squad is very bad, like regardless of what formation they're trying to play, but trying to get them to play a formation that's unfamiliar to them makes them look even worse. And you watch them play and you think the only way that they can get even start to get back is with hundreds of millions of pounds that they don't have. They need, you know, they need so many new players who can play Amarim system, but I don't even see how they get there. So. So no, I mean it's impossible to, I mean, I like elements of him, but it's just impossible to be, to have any reasons for optimism that he can turn it around.
- [36:47]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Look, there's a lot for Manchester United to think about prior to this game, but also, you know, I spoke about it early. Finances. Massive, Massive. Right. What you could be cleaning up for in the Europa League and also potential money in the Champions League. So looking like around 35 million for spurs winning the Europa League. And then potentially the Athletic estimate, Spurs look to make around 60 million pounds in the Champions League from revenue. I mean, this is massive. With a caveat of who might be in charge next season at Spurs. Jack, buying players, it's an easy negotiation to say we've got Champions League football next season. Do you know what? Giovanni coming to play for spurs, we're on an upward trajectory. Victory.
- [37:28]
Jack Pitt Brook
Exactly. Yeah. Like in the last few years I think spurs have done really well, signing very talented young players to come, you know, like Van Der Feen who's playing yesterday. Bergwaald probably would have played if he was fit. Ode, Bear and Gray, who are on the bench. So they can be, even though they're not big payers, they can be very attractive to young players, I think because, you know, because of the status of the club, because of the opportunity they offer young players to develop. I think where they've really struggled, I think in the last few years is like adding those players who, adding players who are already established, you know, the kind of early 20s players, you know, like Jacob Ramsey, Conor Gallagher, that level of player they were obviously looking at last summer. And obviously money is part of that. You know, they have a restrictive, they've got a wage structure and that means that they can't necessarily compete with the other big teams for Salaries, but I just think being in the Champions League, like that's so important to players. And if you even, even with their salary constraints, I think the combination of, of being in London, being in the Champions League, the amazing club facilities and stadium and, you know, the fact that they can say to players now, we won the Europa League last year, maybe we'll win, we'll win more trophies again soon. I do think they will be a more, more attractive option in the marketplace for, for potential signings.
- [38:44]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Okay, Laura, let's, let's switch it to Manchester United. Ollie K, on a blog post, said something I thought was, was really fascinating. Not that I was surprised by it, but it made it seem a bit more stark. He says, you know, I spoke to club back in February who told me it was imperative that they won the Europa League, not because it was important to win a trophy, but in order to secure Champions League qualification. Because the financial situation was, he puts it in quotes, a lot worse than people outside the club realize. Just how damaging is this for Manchester United on a financial basis and also on a commercial basis?
- [39:17]
Ruben Amarim
Yeah, I mean, I think you sort of quote some numbers there in terms of what it means for Tottenham. I feel like it might even be more for United just because of the commercial revenue and the matchday revenue they can get. Although I know Tottenham get a big matchday revenue now as well with their stadium. But I mean, for example, United have a clause in their Adidas contract that's £90 million a year. That gets reduced by 10 million for each year that they're not in the Champions League. So this is the first season that comes into effect. It used to be that the old deal was if they failed to for two consecutive years, that it would be hit. And they ended up always sort of just about escaping that. And this is, again, they're going to be not in the Champions League for two years in a row. But that's by the by. You know, they're still not got a training shirt sponsor. Will that impact what they're able to do there? But yeah, from a purely sort of financial prize money point of view, from a broadcast revenue point of view, from a matchday income point of view, the lower number of matches is huge. You know, I think they make about one and a half million pounds per match. So, you know, take off, say 10 home matches. I think that's what they ultimately something like they had this year, that would then obviously be a significant deficit. I mean, they are obviously trying to pick through the bones of the Glazer regime. Which did generate cash. They were paying dividends to the shareholders, AKA the Glazers for a few seasons when they were having a surplus. And obviously that was a bitter pill for a lot of fans to swallow, to see the people that had loaded debt onto the club then make even more money out of it. But then their mismanagement of the club past that point where they've overcommitted on spending for players chasing that dream to get back into the Champions League, to potentially beef up the club to make it look more appealing for an investor. So, for example, Antony and Casemiro, those were deals struck when United were looking like they were going to have a disastrous season under Erik Ten Hag when he first joined. And that was at the same time that they were then going to put the club on the market. And ultimately that led to Sir Jim Ratcliffe's investment. And, you know, they have ultimately lost 300 million in recent years, United. So that's a huge gap to try and build a bridge over. And Ratcliffe has taken the choice to cut staff levels, reduce the commercial team which have got these deals in the first place, the Adidas one or the Snapdragon, the shirt sponsor that they've got, that was a big deal for United at the time. The people that made those deals have gone. So are the people that have replacing them going to be able to, to kind of pull in that kind of money? That's a big ask on them now when they haven't got the allure of Champions League football to sell. So, yeah, I think it is a pretty bleak picture for United from a financial point of view. Ultimately it comes down to 11 players on a pitch on a weekend now. There's no midweeks plus the players on the bench and that first team level to try and arrest this. And maybe that togetherness can change things. I mean, look at what happened to Chelsea to your early point, Ayo, you know, when they didn't have European competition under Antonio Conte. I think that would be a big ask for United to make that kind of turnaround. But they need to be focusing now on, on themselves. They can't be thinking, well, we're in a desperate situation, so we, you know, we can just sort of make that our excuse. They have to look within and try and make the best of the solution. But I do agree, I think it's a pretty difficult financial situation to get, get through.
- [42:43]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Look, you talk about togetherness of this squad. How hard is it to stay together or keep some sort of consistency where you're probably going to have to sell over the summer at some point. You're still thinking about Anthony, still think about Rashford, you're still thinking about Sancho, Bruno Fernandes, the talisman of this team. Garnacho, I saw, you know, some, some tweets and social media bits he's posted out on Kobe, Maino as well. Assets from the academy that can be carried cast in on.
- [43:10]
Ruben Amarim
Well, I think the Garnacho and Mainoo ones are very interesting. I mean, Garnacho, it felt like he'd kind of come back into Amarun's trust towards the end of the season when he was playing all this, all these minutes, he had the opportunity maybe to really stake his claim. Didn't quite do that because he wasn't finishing chances. He's ended up with okay numbers for the season, particularly for someone who's only 20. But you know, his statement I think to reporters last night was basically, it's the summer, let's see. So he's leaving it very open. Kobbie Mainoo though, got even less minutes than him last night. You know, Garnacho got 20 main who came on, you know, in injury time. So these are two players that United felt they were going to build around. And now under Amering system, how do they fit in? These are huge decisions to be making that could change the course of United's future. But I do certainly think that those two will have, you know, a very intriguing summer ahead because they're due new contracts so, you know, have a decision to make whether they go and give them contracts that put them on parents with you know, kind of real first teamers or they ultimately look to cash in.
- [44:07]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah. Okay. Jack, I know you're probably gonna have to head back to London at some point, but I hope you make it in time for the parade on Friday. Do you reckon you're gonna make it in time, eh?
- [44:17]
Jack Pitt Brook
Well, I hope so. I mean. Well, I hope to be back in London late tonight. I actually have. I actually have to go to the Thomas Tuchel squad announcement press conference at Wembley on Friday.
- [44:26]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Oh, wow.
- [44:27]
Jack Pitt Brook
So I don't know if I will be at the parade, but I feel like, I feel like I've seen the celebrations now. I mean, being in the stadium was a special mom. And you know, I think the parade will be great for everyone who goes and I hope they all have a great time, but having seen them lift the trophy, I feel like I don't have the same like emotional need to be at the parade.
- [44:47]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Thank you very much, gents. I really appreciate your time and thanks for joining us after so little sleep. Laurie Jack, appreciate your insight and also thank you guys for listening. We'll catch you tomorrow.
- [44:58]
Ruben Amarim
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroot and Jay Beal. The executive producer was Ailey Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
- [45:18]
Rob McElhenney
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [45:26]
Unknown
What'S your.
- [45:27]
Ruben Amarim
Go to drink before flight?
- [45:28]
Rob McElhenney
A West Coast IPA or Manhattan?
- [45:31]
Laurie Whitwell
Find the detail that moves you with local beer and craft cocktails at the Chase Sapphire Lounge by the club.
- [45:36]
Ruben Amarim
Learn more@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank NA member FTSE subject to credit approval Trip Planner by Expedia.
- [45:44]
Jack Pitt Brook
You were made to have strong opinions about sand. We were made to help you and your friends find a place on the beach with a pool and a marina and a waterfall and a soaking tub.
- [45:54]
Unknown
Expedia Made to Travel this podcast is brought to you by Aura. By the time you hear about a data breach, your information has already been exposed for months. On average, companies take 277 days to report a breach. That's nine months where hackers have access to your personal data. That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Aura is an all in one digital safety solution that monitors the dark web for your phone number, email and Social Security number, sending real time alerts if your info is found. It also includes a vpn, password manager and data broker removal to help keep you safe for a limited time. Aura is offering a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked, all for free@aura.com safety that's aura.com safety to sign up and protect your loved ones. That's aura.com safety terms apply. Check the site for details.