← The Athletic FC Podcast
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- [00:00]
Chase Sapphire
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- [00:28]
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- [01:04]
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- [01:36]
The Athletic
The Athletic.
- [01:36]
JP Morgan Chase
FC Podcast Network.
- [01:43]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimwaleere. Sunderland are back in the Premier League after eight years away, thanks to a late, late winner in the playoff final at Wembley.
- [01:55]
Chris Weatherspoon
And it falls the way of Watson.
- [01:58]
JP Morgan Chase
Oh, and what a parting gift that.
- [02:03]
Ayo Akinwaleere
So how did a club who were in Ligue 13 years ago make their way back to the top table? And crucially, can they stay there? Joining me today is the Athletics football finance writer and Sunderland fan Chris Weatherspoon, plus lead writer for the Athletic FC newsletter, Phil Hay as well. Later on we'll also hear from Leo Perlman, who whose production company was behind the documentary series Sunderland Til I Die. Right guys, let's get into it because you know it's a time to celebrate Sunderland. Phil, the club you covered for 18 years are in the Premier League as well, joined by Burnley and now Sunderland. As I've said at the top, how excited are you both about this beautiful moment? Chris, let's start with You.
- [02:51]
Phil Hay
Oh, Barry. I mean, yeah. I mean we're a few days on and I'm. I thought I was like kind of, you know, you've got to move on from these things as great as they are. But I was not far from where we live actually. There's a house with a flagpole and they always put different flags up. Right this is going somewhere, don't worry. And you know they've had all sorts of different flags at Christmas. There's always a flag and stuff. And I was driving down the hill the day after dropping the kids off at nursery and for the first time ever I've noticed there was a Sunderland flag. And I just felt such a like yes, come on. And you know, we're days since the game. I'm still feeling like that. So I think the excitement is still very much there.
- [03:28]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Yeah. How you feeling? Phil's a bit heavy. Heritage promotion this one. Leeds, Sunderland, Burnley. It's quite nice.
- [03:34]
The Athletic
It is, it is. And for Leeds as well. It's the first time they've been able to have a proper bus parade of any sort in 30 odd years. They got promoted in 2020 but it was right in the thick of COVID Same as Liverpool's last title. So there were people out on the streets that night, a good sort of 4 or 5,000. But they weren't supposed to be and I understand why they were. But the by, by the rules of the government at the time they should have been isolated and at home. But this was totally different. And they ended up with 50,000 out for the parade after the promotion. But it's not, I don't think in any way a coincidence that while it's been done for Sunderland in the playoff final, it's been done for Leeds by winning the championship title. Leeds have a horrendous record in the playoffs. And victories like that one at Wembley from their point of view are very much things that happen to other people. So if ever there was a club that were delighted to a B top, but more importantly than that to be one of the top two sides, it was definitely Leeds.
- [04:30]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Well, let's get back to Sunderland because I'd love to HEAR now from 19 year old Wembley hero Tom Watson who spoke to ITV, the British broadcaster after the match.
- [04:39]
Tom Watson
Yeah, I think this club, you can see by the fans the size of the club, it deserves to be in the top fight. It's a Premier League club for sure. And I'm so glad that I've played a part in getting them to where they belong.
- [04:50]
Chris Weatherspoon
Just listen to that listen to the fans inside Wembley. What do they mean to you? What does this club mean to you?
- [04:57]
Tom Watson
I've been at the club since I was five or six years age. Six years of age. I've went to these games at Wembley when we got beat, I've went when we won. Honestly, I'm a boy H fan and that was a dream come true today.
- [05:11]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Yeah, I mean from the semi final playoffs Chris to another stoppage time winner from Tom Watson in the final against Sheffield United. I mean what a way to do it. It's what dreams are made of. This is why we love football.
- [05:24]
Phil Hay
It is, yeah. It's why I said after Dan Ballard's stooped header, feels like years ago now, but I said that's why we go and it is, you know, like you kind of feel, I mean you certainly know what this is like with how long leads were out of a top tier like I imagine it probably doesn't mean as much if you haven't kind of plumbed the depths and, and then you get a moment like that and actually we've ended up getting a couple within a fortnight of each other and it's. Yeah, it's, it was a bit overwhelming, you know, after the game obviously on Saturday, everyone's overjoyed but I've never seen so many people who haven't actually played the game look so exhausted and it was like, it was a happy, it was a great feeling. Everyone was so happy. There was amazing to see so many, so many people that I know and love so happy but everyone just looked worn out and, and I think it was, you know, it sound probably a bit tri, probably a bit cliched but like this was like the end of like eight years of someone being out the top tier and that's actually the longest the club in its history has ever been out of the top tier. And it has felt every inch of those eight years. Now don't get me wrong, they've not all been this, most of this season has been great, it's been a joy to watch them. But there were times there when you thought, oh my goodness, it's going to take a long, long time to ever get. But I'm sure he will tell me I'm wrong now, but I'm sure I recall my dad saying a couple of years ago he was not sure he would see someone back in the Premier League in his lifetime and it turns out he was very wrong about that and I'm so glad that he was.
- [06:55]
Ayo Akinwaleere
You know, what's been such an Interesting season across just English football. Anyway, look at Charlton, you look at teams like Newcastle, you look at teams like Sunderland coming through and Leeds coming back into the Premier League again. There's something really special about this season. Bonkers as well, Phil. And I know you've definitely seen your fair share of playoffs. I mean how nervy is it when a team like Leeds get to the playoffs or make their way up to the, to the Premier League, the big league. It must be so nail biting either at the playoffs or even just thinking you're going to get promoted.
- [07:25]
The Athletic
It is. I think that applied More to 2020 for Leeds than it did this season. There were a couple of wobbles on the farker with the past 12 months but really it was mostly in order for Leeds. They had the strongest squad. They were in control of the season for a long, long stretch of it. Whereas in 2020 you still had the element of disbelief that it was actually going to happen. Because there seemed to be no circumstances in which it couldn't go wrong for Leeds no matter how much it looked like they were as good as over the line. And it was 16 years for them in the EFL as opposed to eight for Sunderland. And it does start to feel like it's never going to end. It feels like it's endemic and it's just there for forever in a day. I think the nerves that apply if you're a bigger club than playing against smaller opposition then, then I think that that is a factor. But I always felt with Leeds it was more like they were fighting Ghost down at Wembley. They do have one of the worst playoff records going. They've never won in the playoffs. And they also did have that weight of year after year of meandering in the championship and in League one. So it did heighten the stress. But I think the tension of the occasion is more to do with the implications of the result. The consequence of losing the playoff final, especially in the championship can be so hard hitting and can last for years. It affects and I hate talking about this because you can tell from what Chris is saying there's a kind of passion and emotion to that game. But the result does affect finances and it does affect strategy in a way that so few other games potentially, well, I don't think any other game to the same extent does anywhere else. A lot of clubs going into the championship player final are mortgage to the hilt. You know, some are on the last run of parachute payments. Some know that if they don't win down there they've got big Big trouble ahead. I mean, take leeds back in 2006, they lost to Watford in the championship playoff final. That was in Cardiff. A year later, summer 2007, they were insolvent and relegated to Ligue 1. It really is kind of sliding doors. I remember David Prutton speaking to me about the 2008 playoff final, which Leeds also lost. And you know, the environment that he found down at Wembley and he was saying he stepped out and he felt like he was in this cavernous stadium, which is exactly what it is. And to the extent that almost sucked the, the energy out of him, sucked the life out of his legs. And I think when a playoff final starts going against you, you can definitely feel that in the crowd too. You know, the feeling of the weight of it all being a bit too much and basically boil boiling down to being affixed to that you just don't dare to lose.
- [09:55]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Yeah, for sure. Now, Chris, we're going to talk finances in just a bit actually. But from a fan's perspective, just break it down to anyone who hasn't followed Sunderland story this season. You know, how did they get back up? How did it happen? Because, you know, you're looking at time spent in League One for four seasons, 16th in the Championship last season. There must have been a remodeling, a reshaping, a reorganizing of ideals and identity for this team to make their way back to the Premier League after so long.
- [10:23]
Phil Hay
Yeah, I mean, they kind of, I mean the, the reorganization really came about four years ago when the club got taken over and you know, they, they went from, you know, down on League one. There was an incredibly unadventurous transfer policy. And you know, there was, there was a lot going on with the ownership. There was some who were effectively the victim of a leverage buyout really. There was money, Irish appearance for the club. We used to buy the club and they were then written off. So, you know, so there was really, there was a point where it wasn't just like, oh, we're, we're in Division 3 here and you know, we, once we saw that there was a point where it was like, will we ever be able to sort of, will we go down the path of what happened with Leeds and we end up in administration or whatever. You know, I don't know if anyone really realized how close a possibility that was, but Carol Louis drivers came in early 2021 and really, I mean the key thing, it's cliche, but it obviously it always, it almost does come out of the results on the pitch. And they completely revamped the strategy. They started focusing on effectively buying Jurgen. Until this season, I don't think they'd spent a fee on anyone aged over 24. And they started to prioritize, you know, the academy, like Sunland have always had a great academy, but for years there they stopped providing a pathway to the team. Now, actually, if you look at the team on Saturday, the Go keeper who made a quite unbelievable save in the first minute, he's from Sun's academy. The captain, he's from Sunlands Academy. The winning goal scorer, he's from Sun's Academy. 17 year old Chris Rigg, who I think, I guess we were all hoping the, the champagne doled out after the game was non alcoholic as he's from Sundance Academy. And what they've done is they've, they provided this pathway and at the same time, through doing that they've been able to attract young players from elsewhere and say, look, you know, you might only be 18, you might want to be 19, but you're gonna play games here. I mean, Eliza Mander, who scored the equalizer, an unbelievable equalizer, and set off scenes that I don't think I've ever seen before in the stands. Like he only turned 20 a fortnight ago and you know, and like he's kind of, he's come of age. The shame. He played a little bit last year, you know, like he didn't look quite ready, went out on loan and then he's come up here this year, like the whole team, you look at them and you're like, oh, he looks young. He's. That's because they're all young. And so. Yeah, so really that was the change in strategy. Now they don't, they'd embarked upon that already prior this season. But I think really the key thing that happened in the closed season last year was the appointment of the manager. And now it's quite funny looking back, it took quite a while to appoint the manager. Became a little bit of a running joke how long it was taking to get him. But my word, they made a great choice and you know, he's coming for some criticism actually. And I think that's because the season tailed off. But if you look at when someone went out of the playoffs two seasons ago to now, two seasons ago, they got in on the last day and they really had like a barebone squad and they got beat off a new night. Of all the teams you want to play if you're lacking physically. Luton were probably low down the list and so approved, whereas this time, you know, they lost the fact the last five league games of the season but they had pretty much a full strength team to, to choose from and tactically he's been outstanding during the playoffs. Like he's changed it up and probably the one consistent criticism throughout the season and I think a lot of managers get this was that he struggles to change it in game but I think Saturday was like his vindication that he can't do that. He brought, he brought Patrick Robertson on the hour mark and that, that changed the game. He then brought, you know, he brought. Watson obviously came off the bench, he played his role in the build up and then he scored that last minute winner and so yeah, I mean don't get me wrong, it's not all the manager. I think that was the key thing that changed over the closed season. But it's kind of they've got this young fearless team and it's really. That's been probably the most heartening thing about it all actually. You often think with young teams that you know, they might wilt in the face of kind of adversity but that just hasn't been the case and we see that all through this playoff run.
- [14:37]
Ayo Akinwaleere
I guess it's probably a really good time then to really talk about, we talk about the manager Regis Lebris, but also I guess the academy graduates you guys have spoken about really. Tom Watson, interesting. Scored the winner but sadly off to Brighton 10 million. But also who else should people have looked at this season or you potentially be excited about next season? I'm thinking the name Bellingham rings a bell. Just for marketing reasons though. What do you reckon, Phil?
- [15:05]
The Athletic
Well, I was actually going to ask you question of Chris here, another name to throw in which is Angel Le Fay from, from Roma because when he signed on loan, and I won't pretend that I didn't think it was a top signing, there were plenty of people who thought he might transpire to be the championship's best player. And what was left of the season. How good was he actually for Sunderland or how good has he been actually? Because I saw quality flashes from him but obviously I don't follow Sunderland day to day, but I haven't been aware of his name sort of relentlessly in lights either over the past four or five months, if you know what I'm saying. And do you think Sunderland would be very keen to retain him? Because again, you can maybe clear this up. I have read that they're obligated to take him. Are they now that they're promoted?
- [15:50]
Phil Hay
Yeah. And I believe it's done effectively. Yeah. The obligation is he will be a Sunland player next season. And I think your point's actually like a perfect reflection on how it's been. I think it's. If you were to describe it, it probably has been flashy. But I think there's context to that in that really after, truthfully, after Sunland lost in the last minute down at your team, Leeds Phil, it became, I wouldn't say people wrote off automatic promotion, but it became apparent that it was going to be quite hard to get there. Lefe got injured actually for a chunk of the season as well then and so. So I don't know that performances in my period are necessarily like what we can take away from. I think Lefe is the game where we really saw exactly what we'd signed was we played down at Middlesbrough and it got to the point where you almost wondered if Luke Galen, who was up against him was going to retire at half time because it was just, it was just cruel some of the things he was doing. And yeah, it's been a bit more flashy and spotty in that. But I think one of the big things of Agraphia that's really stuck to me and we saw it again on Saturday, is that the amount of work he does off the ball like you think when you sign these flare players and is certainly a flare player and he's got quality with the ball at his feet, but he worked incredibly hard off the ball. I think that is like the new him prior to Sunland anyway. But I, I think that was a big part of it because actually what the season has been built on is like a form of solidity, you know, like that fight that I've just been talking about. So it'll be interesting to see how he does next year. But I, I do think there's clearly quality there and I, and I think actually he obviously he was involved in the, the opening goal on, on Saturday and I think if you look at the sort of goals are scored in the Premier League and sort of goals somebody going to have to score in the Premier League next season. It's very quick. There's a lot, there's a lot of good movement and that and he was integral to that. So the hope is that it will translate to the next level as well.
- [17:57]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Okay, just before you go, Chris, I want to talk about your specialist subject. Let's talk money. You recently wrote a piece calling the championship play up final the most lucrative match in world football. How much money? Real talk, do Sunderland have to make their squad, I guess, Premier League ready next season because as you've also written, it's an endless money pit being in the championship and in the lower leagues in English football.
- [18:23]
Phil Hay
Yeah. And I guess, I mean, there's two elements to this really. I, I think we've said this about other clubs in the past, so from a PSR perspective, which everyone likes to talk about, some of them really don't have any, any worries on that front. You know, they're lost making in the championship, but not to the extent that it causes, because you know, someone who got a Category one academy which costs a lot of money to run, they can deduct that stuff. So from PSR perspective, they don't really have anything to worry about from a, from a cash potato, I mean, I guess. Yeah. In that piece we did over the weekend, we valued the winning the playoff final at about 200 or north of 200 million pounds. Obviously it's not like somebody rocked up alongside that nice big, big trophy that was on the pitch on Saturday and there's a wad of £200 million there. That's, that's basically the earnings you would get even if you finish bottom of the Premier League next season, and then what you would get from two years worth of parachute, in reality, we probably actually understood it because there's a new Premier League TV deal next year, so the figures are only going to go up. But yeah, I mean, like on that basis. Yes, or say someone get a minimum 110 million pounds in the Premier League next year. You know, they've, as we talked about, they've. They've sold Tom Watson Brighton for around £10 million. There's a lot of talk about Joe Bellingham. I mean, there's nothing done yet, so it would be amazing for someone if he stayed. But if they were to sell him, they'd get a decent amount of money for him. Certainly. Now the strategy to date under the current regime has been kind of buy low, sell high. You know, they, they bought Jack Clark for a very low fee from spurs and they sold them for really good money dips, which last year, you know, Ross Stewart, they got him in the hundreds of thousands from up in Scotland and sold him to Southampton for, I think it was around £8 million, at least initially. So look, they're going to have to spend more money than they have previously. I mean, Lafayette is a good example of that. I would be quite surprised if they went down the path of say, I don't know, like what Nyan Forest did You know, Forest obviously splurge to the point that they got hit with a points deduction, but they'll say that that's worth it now. I mean, even Ipswich last year spent over £100 million and unfortunately you've come straight back down. I'm not sure you see that at Sunland. If, if you do it, it is a clear choice to move away from what they have been doing. I think they will have to spend money and any team coming up does and it really puts teams in a difficult position now because, you know, like we saw with Luton, Luton came up, didn't spend an awful. By their standards it was a fair bit, but by everyone else's they didn't spend an awful lot and they went straight back down. Actually, they've gone down again. But yeah, I, I'm not going to say it's going to be a modest summer. I think by some of the recent standards they are going to spend. But I think I would be surprised if they went and just threw, threw all their money at staying up. I don't think that's the way the clubs around right now. And you know, if in a year's time some of them have been relegated, people will understandably be disappointed. But there's a chance that they go and throw loads of money at it and that still happens like we've seen other clubs do.
- [21:35]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Yeah, for sure. All right, Chris, thank you so much for your time and congratulations once again. Well done, man.
- [21:40]
Phil Hay
You know, I kept getting messages from people saying congrats. And I was like, well, I, I haven't really done anything.
- [21:48]
Ayo Akinwaleere
As an Arsenal fan. I don't know what anything is this season. So yeah, well done. There's a little trophy for you lot.
- [21:55]
Phil Hay
Enjoy. Cheers, guys.
- [21:59]
Chris Weatherspoon
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akinwaleere.
- [22:06]
Leo Perlman
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- [23:08]
Chase Sapphire
With an hour before boarding, there's only one place to go, the Chase Sapphire Lounge by the club. There you can recharge before the big adventure or enjoy a locally inspired dish. You can recline in a comfy chair to catch up on your favorite show or order a craft cocktail at the bar. Whatever you're in the mood for, find the detail that moves you with curated touches at the Chase Sapphire Lounge by the club Chase. Make more of what's yours. Learn more@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by.
- [23:35]
JP Morgan Chase
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- [24:00]
Ayo Akinwaleere
All right, time to welcome Leo Perlman, the CEO of Falwell Entertainment, the makers of hit Netflix documentary Sunderland Till I Die. Leo, welcome to the show and also appreciate you joining us. Firstly, I imagine the events on Saturday for you as well will live long in the memories.
- [24:18]
Chris Weatherspoon
Yeah, I'm nowhere near recovered. Interestingly, the previous guest was saying about the fans looking exhausted. I genuinely woke up on Sunday morning injured. I've got a little Achilles strain, my shoulder's hurting. I feel like the celebrations have led to a couple of knocks, to be honest. I'll be good for next season. I'm not worried about that. But no, physically, emotionally drained, it was.
- [24:43]
The Athletic
Do you know why that is though, Leo? It's the timing of the goal, isn't it? It's the nature of the win. I've seen playoff finals before where team scores after 20 minutes and then it's the long drag through to the final whistle. Like a lot of it can just be stood still, tense, you know, not much more than that. But goals like that, at the end of a game like that, where you get injured and they're, and they're the ones as well, that leave you feeling completely emotionally drained when it's all over.
- [25:08]
Chris Weatherspoon
The injuries are just because I'm too old. Thank you, man. I appreciate you trying to put a spin on this, but no, it's just a man of my age should not be jumping over three or four rows of seats, that's all. Genuinely, I, I, I, I. It was, it is, I can say it's, it's the best footballing Day, I can't say the best day in my life. My wife might hear this and comment on weddings and children and God knows what. It's definitely the best footballing day of my life. It was very, very special indeed.
- [25:38]
Ayo Akinwaleere
I like that. Now, let's talk about. Well, I want to go forward first and then we'll go back, of course, to the documentary series. But Sunderland being back into the Premier League, it's a very different place for when they did leave the Premier League all those years ago. Now, you know, you probably have your eye on this as well, like globally, commercially, the, the business of the Premier League. We talked about the money that might be coming into the club, but also I wonder how interesting it will be for narrative as well, because, you know, I also work for Premier League productions. One of the things we look at are narratives for clubs. You know, the narrative for Sunderland now would be really interesting, but extrapolated now in a global market.
- [26:13]
Chris Weatherspoon
Yeah, I think this is a really interesting question. And I, I, you know, I, due to my involvement with the club, we have conversations about this, about the narrative, about the storytelling, and that's my day job as well. So we talk about that a lot. And I think it, it actually relates to Sunderland. The reason why that show was so successful is because Sunderland, Sunderland feels like a very local club club. And yet that, that localness, I don't think that's a word, but that localness translates into global understanding. It's why we have fans of the show in South Korea. It's why we have fans of the show in Canada, all over the world. Fans who don't, let alone don't support Sunderland, but don't even follow soccer. They, they simply, they simply feel the same thing that we feel as Sunderland fans, which is that 99 of your sporting life is spent miserable. It's spent watching your team not win. And there is something incredibly engaging about that feeling. And so, and then, you know, obviously you are. You have those moments of incredible joy and happiness and success, like on Saturday, but most of the time it's pretty miserable. And that's what Sunderland till I die. That's what connected Sunderland till I die to sports fans all over the world. So my, my attitude to Sunderland's story going into the Premier League is we are a local club. We are a northeast club. We're embedded within the community. We're a you. The Sunland is a city. Beats to the drum of the football club. If the team wins, the city feels it. If the team loses, the city feels it. But there's something incredibly engaging and global about that. And I think there's a really interesting contrast with that storytelling with our neighbors just up the road with Newcastle. I'm not going to comment or criticise in any way what they have achieved. And it's unbelievable that they finally, after 250 years, won a trophy this year. Congratulations to them. But they are no longer a local club, They're a global entity. They play in the Champions League year in, year out. And so I think there is a place for Sunderland within the Premier League, the storytelling within the Northeast, to take its place as a truly local club. That, to me, is the story of Sunderland.
- [28:14]
The Athletic
I have a lot of questions about this, Leo, although I will limit myself just to a handful. But one of them.
- [28:20]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Look at you chomping at the bit.
- [28:21]
The Athletic
One of those that I really wanted to ask kind of relates to that, obviously. Welcome to Wrexham has been big, I mean mega, and has had the effect of generating kind of major support, or if not like support, major attention for them in. In the United States, which seems to be football's big market at the moment. It's got the World cup next year, club World Cups coming up shortly. FIFA and Infantino just seem to be there all the time and spreading their wings. So is there any part of you that wishes that Sunderland Till I Die had come a few years later than it actually did, to, I guess, facilitate more rapid growth of the fan base or the amount of attention that's on Sunderland? Because it almost feels like if Summer Until I Die was broadcasting now and clearly it was massively successful, but if it was broadcasting now, the U.S. audience seems even more primed to engage in content like that and to latch onto clubs like that.
- [29:12]
Chris Weatherspoon
Well, I'm not so sure. So I would say two things. I think what Ryan and Rob have done with Wrexham is unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable. But the reason why that club and that show attracted the audience it did in the US is because it has genuine A list talent who are behind it. I don't believe there is the same level of authenticity about the storytelling and they're quite open about that. That's not. Again, that's not disparaging. You know, it's not like they're pretending they were lifelong Wrexham fans and finally bought their dream, you know, their boyhood club. No, they were looking for a low division club. As the story goes, they watched Sunlands, like die couldn't afford Sunderland, so they bought Wrexham and I. And I wish them the very best of luck with it. But I don't think Sunderland Till I Die was ever going to connect in quite the same way because I think ultimately we were telling a very authentic story about a city and a people. And also Wrexham had immediate success. That's again, fantastic for them. But the story of Sunderland was not about the success on the pitch. The story was about the connection between the city, the club and the fans. You know, the first two seasons follow us being relegated and then losing in the playoff final. Hardly the stuff of, you know, of Hollywood. I would say most of the time they end in success like Wrexham has. I would also say that there was a much bigger opportunity for Sunderland Till I Die to reach a larger audience from a commercial perspective if the ownership of the club in the first two seasons had taken advantage of that. But the truth is that Ellis short in the first season. The only reason I managed to convince Ellis to do the show was, was to help him sell the club. I mean, that's. That, that, that's factually the case. It wasn't like Ellis was there trying to promote and build a brand. He was there trying to tell everyone that there's a club here in trouble and you can buy it on the cheap. And you know that that was his rationale for doing so. And with Stuart and Donald Stuart, Donald and. And Charlie Methman again with the second season, they didn't invest in the club in any way and they certainly didn't invest in that show and using it as a way to build commercial success. The first people that did that was Kirill and his ownership group with the final season that we made. So I think that. Yeah, so I'm not sure. I'm not sure there's necessarily a correlation.
- [31:36]
Leo Perlman
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- [32:50]
JP Morgan Chase
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- [33:10]
Chris Weatherspoon
The mean encompass this is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Acumalera.
- [33:37]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Fan perspective. It's interesting because also as a program maker, you're wearing two different hats here and something we talk about on the podcast a lot is about the business of football. What did you on earth or what? What was different from that fan's perspective to actually being on the inside of of your boyhood club?
- [33:55]
Chris Weatherspoon
I can't say I enjoyed it. I have to be honest with you. I still remember the the Netflix meeting when we were selling the show. I went out to LA and we had three Premiership clubs lined up for the show and if you think back, it was before all of the all or nothing had been made and we had three Premiership clubs. I'm not going to name them, but they're kind of mid table. They finished somewhere between 8th and 16th every year let's say. And Netflix were ready to assign, ready to do the deal and we'd gone for these mid tier clubs because we thought we'd get better access with the them. And I was sat in the meeting and I heard myself say out loud, as if you're kind of like hovering above yourself, I said there is one other option, there's one other club I just wanted to mention. And they went oh sure, yeah, go ahead. And I went they're called Sunderland. And, and the Netflix execs went who? I was like well it, it's akin to. And I said it. They're pretty much like the Green Bay Packers. And they were like what? They, they win championships and they have this incredible. I was like, not exactly. I was like, but, but they, they come from a blue collar town. It's, it's a one club city. The whole world revolves around win or lose. I said, and they are undoubtedly followed by some of those passionate fans in the world and will get great access because I have a good relationship with them. And they were like right? And they said where are they? I said well they're bottom three in the Premier League but I'm pretty sure they're going to stay up. They're like right, and what happens if they go down? I said oh, if they go down, don't worry about it. It, it's going to be a Phoenix from the Flames style series where they'll get 100 points and they'll smash the league and it'll be released. And they were like, wow, this is really interesting. It's a quite exciting idea. So you think we should park the other three who are solid Premiership clubs? I was like, yeah, yeah, part the other three, let's go with Sunderland. And even as I was saying it, I was like, jesus, this is. This might be the worst idea I've had in my life. And I hadn't spoken to Ellis at that point and pitched him the idea and Netflix was sold in the room I left, called my two business partners, Gabe and Ben, who also Sunderland fans, and I said, I think I've just pivoted from X to Sunderland. They were like, why on earth would you do that? So I guess even through the process of it, I kind of thought it was maybe a bad idea, but was the fan in me got overexcited. And then when we got under the hood and the club went down that year, you know, bottom of the league, it wasn't even close. It wasn't like we, you know, fought really hard in the championship. We were a write off. From almost day one, it became apparent that this was not going to be the story on the pitch. It was going to be the story of much more. And that was the greatest gift that we got for the show. In truth, I think finishing mid table in the championship that year would have been disastrous. I mean, the show would have been pretty bad and we certainly wouldn't have done a second or third season. But seeing under the hood and, you know, getting to really see what was happening as the club was rotting from the inside and that's really what was happening in that year. That first year was incredibly depressing and, you know, not being able to affect it, not being able to have any impact upon it, and seeing again, having the cameras on the fans who cared so much and seeing their pain and feeling it, that was, that was pretty difficult. And there was a number of times when we were blamed for it. I mean, the fans said every time we turned up with a camera we lost. It's not true. We just lost every week. So it coincided and the players blamed us and the managers blamed us, which of course is all, you know, nonsense. But yeah, it was a, it was a tough one, I've got to be honest.
- [37:09]
The Athletic
Like, access is so important. Circumstances are as well and you clearly had both for them. One of the issues with the Take Us Home documentary that Leeds United did about the 1920 season was that they had the circumstances because they got promoted and the season was stopped by Covid. So it's kind of unique in that sense. But they had next to zero access to Bielsa, who just was never going to countenance cameras in the dressing room or cameras near training. Basically declined to engage with it at all until the last minute when he did a long interview for them. But it felt like it was done under duress, really, so they just. They just didn't have that. Whereas with Sunderland Till I Die, it was the. The wonderful kind of excruciating aspect of seeing the. The laundry aired in public, which, for me, anyway, made it. Made it so engrossing. And, you know, I. I love the thought of all the unseen politics in this, which you'll have seen really closely, Leo, but obviously we. We won't have done. And I particularly like the idea that at some stage, especially if it's about a club who are, you know, kind of suckling the drain as Sunderland were, that a light bulb turns on and some of those people involved basically say, look, what the hell are we doing here? You know, can I get this in the bin? We don't want this to be publicly shown. And were there any points in it where the kind of key protagonists wanted to back out? You know, I started to say, or to give you the impression that they thought this might be a bad idea.
- [38:32]
Chris Weatherspoon
Multiple times, whether it was players or coaches or people involved in ownership at the club. Yeah, it happened. It happened on a. I was going to say a weekly basis, maybe a daily basis. Yeah, it happened throughout. And I think that we had a lot of difficult conversations. I think it helped a lot that people did believe and trust in the fact that we were. We are fans and we love this club and we would never do anything to damage or. Or cause any issue for it. But we also were very honest and said, what we film is going to go out there, we're not going to manipulate the storyline. So if you do your best, give 100%, turn up to work every day and come at it with clean hands, then that's what we're going to display. Win, lose or draw, if there are. If there are other elements to it, then that's what will end up being on camera. And so you have to often have these conversations with adults where they're kind of blaming you and you go, well, no, the cameras were there, but you still did X. Like, we didn't make you do whatever it is that you do. And I think that at some point it kind of clicked for most people that we weren't trying to stitch anyone up, that we really did love the club and wanted to tell a genuine story and they all kind of bought into it. But, you know, it was tough. It was tough.
- [39:56]
The Athletic
What you're saying is it wasn't your decision to showcase Martin Bean's luxury watch collection?
- [40:03]
Chris Weatherspoon
I like Martin. Still to this day, I think I honestly feel like sorry for Martin. No one, no one did as long hours or had as many different roles within a football club as Martin. When you get rid of 90% of the staff, then, you know, the guys there sorting out transfers and changing the toilet rolls. I mean, it was. It's pretty remarkable, to be honest. But no, it was. Yeah, it was, it was. It was quite something. Yeah. The behind the scenes is interesting.
- [40:32]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Any chance of a reboot for the Premier League campaign? I mean, come on, you've got to be looking at your lips as that on that one. As a program maker. Sure.
- [40:40]
Chris Weatherspoon
Honestly, I've been asked that a thousand times since Saturday. And the answer, the answer is no. I think. No. I think that nothing is perfect. That's a silly word to use, but I think that as a. I think that as a TV show, I think the moment of winning at Wembley for the first time since 1973, winning in the playoffs, having most fans been there eight times to see us lose, beating Wickham and having that moment, I think that felt like the perfect ending to our story. It's not the ending of the story of Sunderland Football Club, we know that, but as Sunderland till I die, that felt like the ribbon. And I don't know if I want to go back. I'm not sure what more. I'm not sure what more we could do. You know, if we'd been there on Saturday, if we told the story of this season, of course, return to the Premier League would have wrapped it up in a bow because we started with relegation. But the truth is that I wrote a piece before the final and I really did believe it. It didn't. It mattered whether we won or lost. But that wasn't. That wasn't. The key factor here. Key factor is that the fans had our club back. And that's what it feels like now. It feels like there's something to be incredibly proud about, about Sunderland Football Club again. And the credit for that goes to Kirill and to Christine Speakman and David Bruce and to all of the staff there that have worked unbelievably hard to get us back to this place. And Wickham was that moment. So, yeah, I'm happy with what we. I'm happy with what we do.
- [42:14]
The Athletic
I'm just going to say quickly as well. I think it's quite easy to underestimate what Sunderland have done in quite a short period of time. I know Chris was saying earlier that it, you know, it was eight years, I think, outside the Premier League, which is the longest stretch that Sunderland have had, but it has only been seven from League one, the championship, and that's more difficult to do than people probably appreciate. I think Ligue 1 is definitely different to the Championship and even though it's not easy to get out of it, Sunderland took four goals. I remember Leeds having three. Sheffield Wednesday seem to be down there forever. You feel like clubs of that size will get there eventually, but leaping from the championship to the Premier League is just such a big ask in comparison. And I don't think it necessarily makes any difference how, how historically big you are or how much clout you think you have. It's just a proper dog eat dog division in which lots of good sides get nowhere. I mean, I happen to think towards the end of the season that Coventry looked like they might do it. And I still think having watched both legs against Sunderland, that it was a proper 50, 50 tie that I think that could easily have gone Coventry's way had, you know, had minor things just, just been different. And it seems it is a really big achievement I think to have showcased it is a really good thing.
- [43:31]
Chris Weatherspoon
The toughest thing about getting out of the Championship is undoubtedly the fact that the teams coming down have this incredible, incredible wealth. And if you can keep even a few of those Premiership players and then buy the very best of the championship, as the stats show, the majority of the time you're finishing top three. And that's really the greatest challenge. I mean, I look at Sheffield United, I look at the options they had up front, Hunt, for example, in that final. I mean, it was incredible that they could start with Tyrese Campbell and Keefer Moore and have Baron Diaz and Tom Cannon on the bench. And I look at what Sunderland had and you've got eliza Mayender at 20 years old who picked up for nothing. And you've got Wilson Isidor who picked up for nothing as well. And that was, that was it. That was all the options we had. And I think that really is the biggest challenge. And it's an. That is a true testament to a plan. I really do believe that. That they had a plan. They had a five year plan to get back to the Premiership. We did it one year early which is fantastic. I thought five years was a pretty big stretch in itself. But to do it with the wage bill that they did. To do it with that plan. To do it. Selling our best player last year in Jack Clark and actively deciding to. He wasn't out of contract. They could have kept him for another year. But they had a plan and a mission and it's a real testament to everyone at the club. Genuinely it is. And I think. And I think they'll surprise a few people in the Premiership next year.
- [44:47]
The Athletic
Year.
- [44:47]
Chris Weatherspoon
I genuinely do. I think it massively helps having a stadium like that. 47 and a half thousand people buzzing from the first week of the season. I think that helps. Yeah. I'm. I'm quietly confident.
- [45:00]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Are you realistic about Sunderland's hopes in the Premier League?
- [45:03]
Chris Weatherspoon
No. We finished fourth bottom. It's been a successful season. Finish fourth bottom and beat Newcastle home in a way as we always do. And it's a successful season. And that's. I'm not asking for too much.
- [45:11]
The Athletic
It's actually really sad though, isn't it? How difficult finishing fourth bottom is starting to look. I mean it's, it. It. It's tough because I don't really see how Sunderland can operate at a vastly different level financially to a club like Ipswich. And I do think like Ipswich they. They dealt in the part of the market where the budget allowed them to deal. They got it spot on with Liam De Lapp and while they didn't strike gold and much else, it feels to me like they were just living in the reality as it is for a. For a promoted club. So I guess for. For Sunderland to do what Ipswich could shouldn't. It's kind of like stating the obvious, isn't it? A good percentage of your signings need to work. The chances that come your way, you've got to take them when they come. I think Ipswich will regret a lot of the games and the points that got away from them this season. And unlike this season you do need one of the other 17 to have a shocker that sucks them in. Great. But it's great in theory, isn't it?
- [46:03]
Chris Weatherspoon
To me it's all about momentum. It's all about momentum. If you. It's exactly the reason why we went from League one and then ended up in the playoffs the following year in the championship and then you have the dip the following year. If you can win the playoffs in the way that we did and carry that momentum through the summer and go into the next season and pick up, you know, 10 points out of the first five games, you know, pick up a couple of wins early and give everyone the belief that they are actually a Premiership club, then I think it's very possible. You look at the points total this year, 22 points, I think was third bottom. I mean, that is, that is a shocking indictment of the clubs coming up up. Would I be confident or hopeful certainly of getting to 30? I think if you can't get to 30, you probably don't deserve to be in that league. So I think, I think we've got a good shot. I think of course it's about the signings and I think the conversation that was happening earlier about Enzo Lafee is a really interesting one. I think that there are players like that that are better suited to the Premiership than they are to the Championship. Much better suited. He played on the left hand side for Sunderland. He's way too lightweight to do so. As soon as he moved inside into a 45 1, which will definitely end up playing next year. He looks real quality and I think he's the kind of player that will step up in the Premiership and I think we've got a few like that. Actually. I think someone like Dan Neal will look a better player in the Premiership than he does in the championship. But ultimately it's about scoring goals and I'm, you know, I'm not sure we've got that quite yet, but we'll see.
- [47:21]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Phil, Leo and also Chris as well. And also Congratulations, Sunderland. Leeds AM Burnley. A new season in the Premier League awaits. Right, we'll be back tomorrow.
- [47:32]
JP Morgan Chase
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- [48:26]
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