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- [00:02]
Adam Leventhal
This episode of the Athletic FC is brought to you by Hotels.com when you're booking a hotel, here's a simple question. Why wouldn't you use hotels.com it really is all in the Name. As a member, you save up to 20% on hundreds of thousands of hotels around the world and earn rewards on every single stay. Which means the trips you're taking now help pay for the ones you're already dreaming about. And unlike some other places, there are no blackout dates. So when you want to travel, your rewards are ready to go. So whether you're planning a grand adventure to follow your national team around North America this summer, or whisking your special someone away for an escape because you've been glued to the football for weeks, make sure to book@hotels.com and start earning rewards. Because when it comes to hotels, it's simple. Hotels.com it's all in the name. This episode of the Athletic FC is sponsored by Kohler Smart Toilets. For many of you listening, the bathroom is the most important, important room in the home. The average adult male spends around 370 days of their lives on the toilet. And in the year 2026, it's about time we all rethink just what a toilet can be. Blending modern design and advanced technology, Kola Smart toilets can transform your bathroom and your bathroom routine. Take the Kola Veil Smart Toilet. With its sculptural curved silhouette, it's a work of art with stunning design that never sacrifices function. It's got amazing features like a motion activated lid and automatic flush, auto deodorization and LED nightlight as well as customizable cleansing features for elevated cleanliness, comfort and convenience. Kola Smart toilets can transform your bathroom routine into something extraordinary. That's the power of design. Discover the difference of Kola Smart Toilets. Find out more@kolar.com that's K-O-L-E-R.com. Marketers, no matter what pitch you play on, a big win feels the same electric it's that moment when you read the play before the trend even starts. Beat the clock on a campaign with a little help from AI and connect with customers in real time like you've trained for it your whole career. That's contentful. World class digital experiences built fast, built beautifully create and launch personalized content in an instant across every channel your customers are watching. No chaos, no limits, just open field. Take your shot@contentful.com.
- [02:29]
Matt
The Athletic FC
- [02:34]
Adam Leventhal
hi there and welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Adam Leventhal. So our World cup coverage is well underway now, getting you set up for the showpiece in the U.S. canada and Mexico. Now, yesterday we debated our World cup draft, which is the ultimate 11 from all 32 editions of the competition. If you've not listened already, you can go back and check that one out. Today we're bringing you some more nostalgia and we're going to be looking back on the defining moments in the competition's recent history.
- [03:08]
Jack Lang
From ghost goals to headbutts, the hand
- [03:13]
Adam Leventhal
of God is in there as well. Our team of writers discussed 10 iconic performances and incidents from the last 10 tournaments. And back in the hot seat to host for you is Duncan Alexander. Over to you.
- [03:29]
Duncan Alexander
So this tournament obviously being held this summer in the usa, Mexico and Canada, the total number of World cup games all time will tick over 1000 matches. So what better time to rewind the clock and pick out some of our highlights? We haven't gone all the way back to 1930 for this one. We're going to keep it relatively modern with the emphasis on relatively. We're going to go from 1986 through to 2022. So 10 moments from the last 10 editions, one per tournament. It's by no means definitive, and I'm sure you might have some contrary opinions, but it's just a little bit of fun. Here with me to adjudicate Ollie Kay, Will Jeans, Duncan, Jack Lang and Felipe Cardenas.
- [04:12]
Felipe Cardenas
Buenos dias.
- [04:14]
Duncan Alexander
Let's warm up with a little bit of open discussion, shall we? Jack, before we get into our selections, what does everyone think are the ingredients of a special World cup moment? Start with you, Jack.
- [04:26]
Jack Lang
I think it's something that goes across national interests. So obviously every country has its own World cup lore, its big moments, but the ones that we're looking at, I think, are ones that transcend that. They're the things that people in every continent were talking about at the time that changed perspectives or made everyone cry or made everyone laugh. Something that, for better or worse, brought people together. So that's what I will be looking at.
- [05:00]
Duncan Alexander
I like it.
- [05:01]
Jack Lang
My selections.
- [05:02]
Duncan Alexander
Ollie, do you agree?
- [05:03]
Ollie Kay
Yeah, I do, I do. I mean, looking down the list, we. We all came up with various suggestions beforehand, and some of them are, you know, surprise wins, shocks, dramatic finals or whatever. But a lot of them are human stories of, you know, a player often having a redemption moment on a big stage. I think people could probably imagine the kind of things we talk about or a player sort of announcing himself on. On the. On the global stage in a big way. So, yeah, I think a Lot of them are those human and redemptive type type stories. And I think that they're the ones that, as a, as a football following media and a football following public way, we all kind of gravitate towards Felipe.
- [05:52]
Duncan Alexander
Do you agree with all that?
- [05:54]
Felipe Cardenas
I do. I tend to, you know, when I was thinking about listening to, you know, I was listening to Jack and I'm thinking, yeah, when I think of World cup moments, it's either tears, you know, of devastation or a moment of glory. I still remember vividly over the years. Not that I saw it live, but just throughout my childhood, seeing Marco Tardelli's celebration that, that 1982 final over West Germany, just, I just remember thinking like, oh, my gosh, if I, I would do the same thing. I mean, if you're in that moment, like you would let out a scream. And so I think when I think of the World Cup, I think of the both ends of the spectrum. You know, it's complete disappointment, failure, or a moment that can shock somebody and then the complete opposite, just absolute glory.
- [06:40]
Duncan Alexander
Yeah, I think that's an important detail, isn't it? The way it kind of connects us with the history of, of the World cup to incidents we, we maybe didn't see at the time because we weren't alive, but we kind of know almost, you know, really, really well. Well, you're, you're very much a football historian. Obviously, we're going to start in 1986 with this exercise, but if you had to pick one thing from pre 1986, 6.
- [07:00]
Will Jeans
What do you reckon the biggest moment? I mean, you could argue the first World cup kicked it all off. Arguably the biggest moment in the sports history from an English point of view and a controversial point of view. The 1966 Jeff Hurst shot. Crossing the line.
- [07:17]
Ollie Kay
Or not.
- [07:18]
Will Jeans
Or not. Hungary, the best team never to win the World cup in 1954, losing that game to West Germany, several of them, pre1986. But I'll just add to this what makes a great World cup moment. Agree with what everything's been said so far, but I do think controversial moments as we'll get onto, and I'm sure people already have a few in their mind, really can add, add to this sort of thing, change the results of not just games, but entire tournaments and defined careers almost, I think it's worth
- [07:44]
Jack Lang
saying, with all the kind of low hum of bringing the World cup every two years, every year, all of this stuff, it is actually the rarity factor that makes these moments stand out. Like I Think much more than the biggest moments in club football, because club football never stops. Actually, the fact that these moments don't happen that often and they mark time for us. You know, me personally, I know people, kind of savant minds who can remember where they were for every Premier League moment, I find that quite hard. But World Cups is very easy for me. Like, I'm sure you guys are similar because, you know, maybe since the first one I was conscious for, there have only been like, you know, 8, 9. That actually makes it much easier to, for these moments to bury their way into your memory.
- [08:34]
Duncan Alexander
Yeah, and I think that's what made the Qatar World cup odd for a lot of people in the Northern hemisphere in the sense that it was in the winter and you know, World Cups associated with being places with friends, with hot summers. And that did make it feel slightly different. Although as we're going to come to, it served up plenty of memorable moments too. Okay, let's kick off. We're gonna go back to 1986 as mentioned. Will mentioned controversy a minute ago. Ollie, you're gonna kick us off with Diego Maradona, who, yeah, had a bit of controversy in 1986, but also quite a bit of brilliance as well.
- [09:09]
Ollie Kay
Well, yeah, an awful lot of brilliance. When Jack spoke earlier about the, the rarity value of the World cup, it doesn't only comes around every four years. So Diego Maradona had been an incredible player as a 17 year old in 1978 who had been considered too young to be in the squad on home soil, was devastated, was sort of rare. You know, by the time it was the 1982 World cup, he was 21. He was absolutely desperate to make a, had impact on, on that tournament. And he struggled really in some ways and lost, you know, got frustrated, kicked out at a Brazilian opponent in the second group stage as it was, and was sent off. So that's two World Cups during his playing career. First he's left out, the second he's sent off and sort of sent home in disgrace really. And so by the third one, you know, he's only 25, but he must be thinking, and I think this is a common feeling with, with some of these great players that they haven't yet made their mark on the World cup. And what transpired in, in Mexico in 1986 and I sort of remember it so vividly as a, as a 11 year old who just watched basically every minute of that World cup was I think the greatest individual World cup campaign that there's ever been. Slow start in one in, in one sense he scored against Italy in ice, goal in, in the group stage, was playing well, but was, hadn't really sort of dominated the group stage. Then there was this game against Uruguay in the, in, in the round of 16 as it's now known, where he. It was just this incredible performance that is forgotten really because it was eclipsed by what came later. But an incredible performance where he almost sort of single handedly played Uruguay and it was a, it was, it was one nil, but was, you know, it was an utterly brilliant performance by him. Then it comes to the quarterfinal against England and there's, you know, so much emotion around the game. It's, it's the, the Falkland's conflict is still fresh in people's minds between Argentina and uk. But you know, obviously it's perceived as being Argentina against England. Maradona, the greatest player in the world at the time, desperate to make an impact, was kicked to pieces really in the first half of that game. I mean England can sort of preach it at times about, you know, as if, as if England occupies the moral high ground where football is concerned. But you know, he was given some pretty rough treatment in the first half of that game. And then the second half begins almost with him handling the ball into the net.
- [12:09]
Unidentified Commentator
The England players protesting to the referee. Or was it a use of the
- [12:16]
Duncan Alexander
hand that England are complaining about? I mean, it was an incredibly clever handball, wasn't it?
- [12:21]
Jack Lang
Great technique.
- [12:22]
Ollie Kay
It was remarkable. It was remarkable because you couldn't see it or you know, watching on TV at the time. I don't think anybody watching on TV saw it at that moment and thought that was Amboh. All English players, Peter Chilton, etc were, were appealing, but it wasn't, it wasn't an obvious one because he sort of, yeah, it's like he went for it with his head, but it was a strange one. He must have done it in training. So English players in uproar really. But what followed, I think the BBC commentator Barry Davis subbed it up perfectly. You know, you have to say that's magnificent. And it was like grudging praise of what remains one of the greatest goals ever scored.
- [13:10]
Duncan Alexander
To his left and Valdano to his left. He doesn't, he won't need any of them.
- [13:15]
Unidentified Commentator
You have to say that's magnificent. There is no debate about that goal. That was just pure football genius inside,
- [13:24]
Ollie Kay
one away from another, arguably surpassed even in terms of, you know, a Maradona performance. The one against Belgium a few days later in the semi final was arguably even Better.
- [13:34]
Felipe Cardenas
I think it's better.
- [13:35]
Ollie Kay
Yeah.
- [13:35]
Felipe Cardenas
Better. It was better. I think that's one of the best performances ever of a World cup. And that's incredible that it's coming off, it's coming after the England game. Just, I mean, what a, what a match that was.
- [13:48]
Ollie Kay
It was, it was incredible. I mean, the final was, was relatively low, low key, but, but still produces, you know, he produced an incredible pass for the winning goal scored by Bush Haga. And it's, it's, it is the. When people talk about an individual campaign in a World Cup, I don't think, I don't think we will ever see a better World Cup. A better one. It was, it was, it was incredible.
- [14:16]
Duncan Alexander
Yeah. And I think it shaped how people saw World Cups for a long time, didn't it? I remember 1990 is the first one I remember properly, and everyone was kind of waiting for who's going to dominate this, this World cup the way Maradona did the last one. And to your point, no one did because no one can. And it remains, you know, just picking up on a couple of your points as well. I mean, 3% of all fouls committed at the 86 and 1990 World Cups were on Maradona. I mean, the man was.
- [14:39]
Ollie Kay
Felt like more than that.
- [14:41]
Duncan Alexander
Yeah, he was kicked.
- [14:41]
Felipe Cardenas
I think they were all, I think that. And I think they were all during the South Korea match. If anyone remembers that World Cup. I mean, to me, it's the best World cup of all time. It's still the most vivid one for me. And, you know, Maradona was something out of this world. It was like you couldn't believe what you were watching. I remember my seeing my dad in awe of this player and he obviously knew about him. You know, my family's Colombian. He knew about this player to Ali's point that, you know, had had a disappointing World cup four years prior, had been a phenom as a teenager in Argentina. But, you know, he, you know, Ali's explained it so well, the pressure he was under to be great. I think we can equate it to what Lionel Messi felt maybe four years ago or has felt his whole career. But this was even different. And he wasn't on a star studded Argentina side. You know, they weren't fancied at home, you know, before that 86 World Cup. And, you know, the England game, obviously to Ali's point, you know, the Falkland Conflict was, was what motivated them before the game. You know, there's an interview that, that Marelo and I did and he, you know, admitted later and his teammates admitted later in the, in the tunnel, Maradona saying, let's go. Like, these guys killed our boys. And, and so it.
- [16:02]
Adam Leventhal
He.
- [16:02]
Felipe Cardenas
He was that type of player. He needed to turn something into the match. He needed to turn a football match into something much bigger. And. And that's what he did. Now, the deception of the handball, I think as a, As a teenager later on, I thought it was brilliant. Like, I wanted to do it. I wanted to do those things because not only did he use his hand, if you watch it, like he moves his head slightly to look like he did head the ball, you know, then he acts like nothing happened. He gave an interview before his death saying how Valdana, Jorge Valdana, ran to him and said, please don't tell me you used your hand. And Diego says, just celebrate. Just hug me, just hug me. Don't say anything. And so it was all like, it's just part of the. The aura of Diego Barelo now.
- [16:47]
Duncan Alexander
And Peter Reed was the only man penalized for handball in that game. So makes you think, okay, let's move on to 1990. And Will, you're going to talk about Paul Gascoigne and a certain moment in the semi final against West Germany.
- [17:01]
Will Jeans
Yes, it was a strange tournament in many ways, remembered far better in some countries, not least England, than many others. As a lot of people have said, goals per game is the lowest of any World Cup. But, yeah, that, that moment is arguably one of the most iconic in English football history, certainly since 1966.
- [17:18]
Adam Leventhal
Gascoign again.
- [17:21]
Jack Lang
He won't be shaken.
- [17:25]
Adam Leventhal
In the end, the German bench get up and protest at Gascoigne's last challenge. He has actually Gascoigne got a yellow car now.
- [17:32]
Jack Lang
Oh, dear, oh, dear me.
- [17:35]
Adam Leventhal
He's going to be out of the
- [17:36]
Jack Lang
final if England get there.
- [17:39]
Adam Leventhal
And here is a moment that almost brings tears to his eyes.
- [17:43]
Will Jeans
It kind of came to sum up a lot more than just him missing the final. England then didn't get to semi final of another World cup for 28 years. And then obviously knocked out on penalties half an hour later. And who would have thought then that'll be the last time Gascoigne ever played at the World Cup. I think he was only. He's only 23 and people would have thought he got at least two more in him, but there were none.
- [18:05]
Duncan Alexander
Yeah, I think that's the real. That was the, you know, that was the sort of. The theme of the end of that game was, well, okay, it's a It's really sad for Gascoigne. It was very rare, obviously, to see someone cry on the pitch, but he's very young, although 23. It's weird, isn't it, how 23 doesn't seem very young these days in, in the world of Max Dalman et al. But, but yeah, as you say, only really one, one more tournament because he missed Euro 92 as well. And England didn't qualify for the 94 World Cup. Jack, I'm sure you remember Gazza and Gaza Mania.
- [18:37]
Jack Lang
This was slightly before my time, actually, chronologically, I'm afraid. Of course, I caught up with it when I was growing up, but the iconography of it, I think it would be one thing for a player, a prominent player, to be crying on that stage, but to have the camera picking out Gary Lineker saying, you know, keep an eye on him with Gaza in the background, just cinematography, like that cameraman should be the star, you know, one of our great World cup heroes, really. And then just, I think Gaz was such a fascinating figure psychologically and just as a, as a kind of, as a moment for masculinity to see this guy who was brilliant and unpredictable, but also everything was there on the surface. And, you know, I'm not, I'm not a cultural historian or whatever, but I, I, I think people who study history would probably have a lot to say about that. The relevance of this guy, this big star, letting it all out there. I mean, whether or not it was, it helped England in that moment is another question. But like, what? Just what a rare sight to see on a football field, especially for, you know, stiff upper lip English culture. It's, it's no real shock that that image has, has endured.
- [20:17]
Will Jeans
I think another thing on that, they've changed the rules now to make it slightly less harsh, but it seems astonishing that you pick up two bookings and then you miss the biggest game of your entire life. It happened to Ballack in 2002 and now wiped off to the quarterfinals, which I still think is too harsh, but I mean, that two in six games,
- [20:32]
Jack Lang
yeah, it's nothing, is it?
- [20:33]
Will Jeans
It's really cruel.
- [20:34]
Duncan Alexander
It's a nonsense. But yeah, particularly in those days when, you know, players flew into tackles, as we discussed with Maradona, a bit more, with a bit more fervor. Ollie, you suggested another potential shout for this World Cup.
- [20:48]
Ollie Kay
I did the opening game and often the opening game of World cup is a bit of a, proves a bit. Well, often the opening week of a World cup is a bit of a slow Slow burner. But that tournament began with Argentina, the holders in Milan, wasn't it playing against Cameroon and being shocked, humbled by, by Cameroon beaten 1 nil. And I just think it's, it's one of the great World cup upsets.
- [21:20]
Unidentified Commentator
Oman big. Oh, this score disaster. And the Giuseppe Beata Stadium is an unbelievable sight.
- [21:35]
Ollie Kay
It's sort of repeated in, in a way by, by Senegal doing the same to, to France as holders in, in 2002. But I think in 1990 there was probably, I mean you go back to 2002, there were Premier League players in, in, in that, that Senegal team, whereas in, in 1990 it was, you know, I think probably a lot of European teams and a lot of South American teams probably still thought despite Cameroon giving it a good go in 1982, Morocco in 1986 probably looked down the nose a bit at African football and it was a real shock. And Cameroon at that World cup with Roger Miller coming off the bench in the latest in the knockout round. Cameroon were incredible. They got to the quarterfinals, played England, should have beaten England, deserved to beat England. So yeah, Cameroon from a, from a more global perspective, a less sort of Anglo centric perspective, I think Cameroon in 1990 were the real feel good story of that World Cup.
- [22:41]
Felipe Cardenas
When I think of the 1990 World cup, like one of the images that I have is of that Cameroon team and the uniforms, the kits, the nickname, the Indomitable Lions, everything about them. Obviously I'm Colombian, so that was a bit of a heartbreak when Rene Iguita decided to try to dribble past Roger Mila. But that opening game, it's true. Think about what happened before kickoff. Diego Marona juggling the ball arrogantly in front of thousands of fans that were chanting his name. Remember, Italy turned on him in the final, but in that, you know, he arrived into Italy as a hero. He was obviously a, a Serie A winner with Napoli. And you know that that game is interesting because when you watch it, the Cameroon team, they felt that they had an advantage on, on set pieces and dead balls against the Argentines, that they could use their athleticism, you know, in the box and that's how the, the goal was produced. What's, what's interesting is that we think about Argentina getting kicked, Mardona getting kicked, and that that play comes from Nestor Lorenzo, who's now the Colombian manager who will take Colombia to the next World Cup. Kicking out, which would, in, in today's game, he probably would have been sent off, but he just kicked out at a Cameroonian player. Takes him out and it's a free kick and it ends up in the box. It gets deflected high up in the air. And Francois Omanbique, what a header that goes unnoticed today. I mean, Nettie Pumpito, the goalkeeper so fumbles it. But the height, the way that Francois Romanbique got up to head that ball, get it down to the ground, it's just an incredible moment, an incredible World cup moment.
- [24:22]
Duncan Alexander
So we've got two options here for 1990. Should we just vote on which one we think? Gascoigne or Cameroon? Well, assume you're going for Gascoigne.
- [24:31]
Will Jeans
I'm going to say Gascoigne.
- [24:31]
Jack Lang
Yeah.
- [24:32]
Duncan Alexander
Ollie.
- [24:33]
Ollie Kay
Cameroon.
- [24:34]
Duncan Alexander
Felipe.
- [24:36]
Felipe Cardenas
Cameroon.
- [24:38]
Jack Lang
I want you to decide, have the deciding vote. So I'll say Gascoigne and pass it on to you, Duncan.
- [24:45]
Duncan Alexander
Yeah, thanks, Jack. Appreciate that. I will vote for. Because this is a global podcast, Cameroon. But. And also, I don't really want to think about Paul Gascoigne crying again. It makes me sad. Okay, 1994, we've moved on to America. And for Felipe, you're going to talk about the sad story of Andres Escobar and what happened after he scored known goal in Colombia's game against the usa.
- [25:14]
Felipe Cardenas
Yes. I mean, if you want to see me in tears, you just let me talk about this because that, this is, this, this is the type of emotion that I feel. I was a 16 year old during that World Cup. I was so impressionable still, and it didn't seem real that the World cup was coming to the United States. I can tell you that as, as. As someone who grew up in the States and grew up playing soccer and, you know, in a sport that was, you know, way down the totem pole, to have the World cup, which for me and our family was such a massive tournament in, you know, in the United States, was, Was surreal. And Colombia was a favorite, which is also surreal. That should not happen if you're a Colombian. They will admit that we are never favorites, but that team was so good. They had not lost in over 27 matches. You know, I spent my, my, the entire year 93, 94 in Colombia with family, going to school, playing football and witnessing that team beat everybody. I was in Colombia when they beat Argentina 5 nil in Buenos Aires. Then they played AC Milan, Palmeiras, Parma, like, you name it. They just played anyone on a world tour and beat them. And so they arrive at the World cup as considered favorites. And it, it, it ends horribly. It starts horribly in the game with Romania, where Romania were just Miles ahead and they win 3 1. And it just felt like that game, it felt like they were out of the World Cup. And obviously from there you start to learn later all of the sort of the, the darkness that was around that team. The, the, the threats for the cartel, threats from, for individual players. The fact that, you know, I remember speaking to Oscar Cordoa, who was the goalkeeper for Colombia.
- [26:59]
Will Jeans
He.
- [26:59]
Felipe Cardenas
And tell me, telling me that they didn't even prepare for their opponents. They did not, they did not study their opponents. It was not something they did. They just thought they could beat anybody. And he told me this in a way that was, he was embarrassed to admit that it was something that they did not do. They did not prepare. So Romania caught them off guard. And then the United States, which, you know, I remember when the draw came out, I was petrified that we were, Colombia was in the same group as the U.S. because I was like, we cannot lose to the U.S. please don't do this to me. And I don't think you ever want to play the hosts. If you're a big nation, you know, you, you run that risk of, of being upset. And so the US Columbia game suddenly comes about as a must win for Colombia. And it became a historic moment for the US who get a win at the Rose bowl in front of over 90,000 people. A team of US players that many were just starting as professionals, you know, having not. There was no professional league in the US Some of them were playing minor, you know, you know, third division football in other countries, some didn't, weren't even attached to clubs. And they beat this star studded Colombia side. And Andres Escobar, who was. His nickname is the gentleman is football, that was his nickname because he was just like a standup guy. Came from a great family, well educated and just very cultured on the pitch. A left footed center back that, that had the door open for him to, to replace Franco Baresi at AC Milan. This is something that his brother confirmed to me earlier this year when I spoke to him that those rumors were true. AC Milan wanted to sign Andres Escobar. It was going to happen after that World Cup. And when he scored the own goal
- [28:43]
Unidentified Commentator
with Caligiri overlapping on the far side, sensitive side, it's her own goal. The USA gets the score. Escobar on the own goal. And the United States leads Colombia one to nothing.
- [28:58]
Felipe Cardenas
No one thought that it would lead to something tragic. It was just a terrible footballing moment. Even Colombians who have seen violence and football mixed for, for decades did not, did not think that, you know, Santiago Escobar, his brother told me that after the, after the match and this told him his main concern was that he had committed that type of error. And then he said, there's no way AC Milan will sign me now. And his brother Santiago, you know, reassured him. But, you know, in the end they get eliminated, they go out in the group stage, they get a win against Switzerland, they go home. And a lot of the players, Colombian players stayed in the US because the tension back home was, was, was so high, you know, they had failed. And so several players stayed in the US Took vacations. And Andres Escobar, which was never someone that was outspoken, told his brother, I need to go home and show the people of Colombia, show my hometown in Medellin, that I am a stand up guy, that I will take responsibility, I'll take accountability for that, for that moment, for the, for this, you know, this failure of the national team. And, and that led to his murder which, which happened at a, at a nightclub in the parking lot. He was there with his friends and Santiago Escobar telling me that he remembers it to this day.
- [30:16]
Jack Lang
His.
- [30:16]
Felipe Cardenas
The Escobar stayed in Las Vegas to just have some time off. And that's where they got the call that Andres had been murdered and they had to fly from Las Vegas and get to Medellin. And you know, it's, it's still to this day is something that Colombians have difficulty talking about, but it is 100% part of Colombia's World cup folklore, unfortunately.
- [30:42]
Adam Leventhal
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- [34:16]
Duncan Alexander
Okay, we're moving on four years now to France, 1998. And Jack, you're going to tell us about a particular game in the round of 16, I think.
- [34:25]
Jack Lang
Yep. England against Argentina. The sublime and the ridiculous, really. So Michael Owen announcing himself on the world stage after his first kind of breakout season at Liverpool. I think England obviously at this point had missed the previous World cup and there was a slight de mob happy spirit. Might be putting it, might not quite be the right formulation, but there was definitely a feeling of we're back, we, we need to enjoy this and actually show that we can compete at that level. And Owen's goal I think summed up more than any other moment just the, the, the Hutz part of it.
- [35:13]
Felipe Cardenas
Beckham said, england moving.
- [35:15]
Jack Lang
This is Owen taken in his stride, Shamrock trying not to bring him down.
- [35:19]
Unidentified Commentator
It's still Michael Owen. He scored a wonderful goal, roasted, shifting
- [35:25]
Jack Lang
his way through the Argentina back line and an Argentina back line which seemed to consist of like a, a defensive line and then Roberto IR, like 40 meters behind it. The kind of thing that if you showed that to someone today, used to high lines, they would just be completely confused that he still had a defender to be at the end, just camping on the edge of his own box. An amazing goal, an amazing moment, but probably overshadowed within the same match by David Beckham's red card for, for kicking out at Diego Simeone.
- [36:00]
Adam Leventhal
Well, as Beckham lay on the ground, he did move his right leg in Simeone's direction, but it seemed to be something and nothing.
- [36:11]
Jack Lang
Simeone is booked and a red card for David Beckham. What was an awful time to receive a red card in an international. Beckham kind of flicking his foot out while lying on the floor. Simeone milking it for all it was worth. And Beckham being shown the red card, which proved pretty costly because England went on to lose on penalties. And I think actually more than the moment itself was the, the vilification of Beckham in, in the press, in the media afterwards. Ten heroic lions, one stupid boy. The very famous headline on the Daily Mirror, the front page. This is not the back page. This was how, how big this was. He had a David Beckham effigy hanging from a lamppost. So, yeah, and, and really a moment that actually would spur Beckham onto to greater things. In many ways it made him in most of the country, briefly, I would say a hate figure, but it made Manchester United, Sir Alex Ferguson kind of get behind him and you know, within a year Manchester United were winning the treble with Beckham very prominent. And yeah, it, I Think it probably got him used to being in the limelight and he would never leave it.
- [37:44]
Ollie Kay
Can I just say, 28 years later, never red card, was it?
- [37:49]
Duncan Alexander
No.
- [37:49]
Ollie Kay
It's very trivial. I know, I know people, I know people wanted to characterize it as him being really irresponsible, really letting his country down, but it was a yellow card at most. It was, it was, you know, even, I mean, especially in those days. That was, that was definitely not violent conduct. It wasn't dangerous play.
- [38:08]
Felipe Cardenas
It was, it was, you know what was more violent? Ali. Ali Simeone's foul on Beckham was way. Was far more violent than the kickout. If you look at the play, I mean, Simeone's like, I'm just, I'm just going to wreck this guy. I'm going to wreck this guy and see what he does. And that's what he did. And I agree, like the kickout, it was sort of. I can't believe he, you know, he kicked out into the right. Like he had to measure the timing and sort of just knack Simeone in the back of the calf. But the, every replay that you see, the referee is right there watching like he wasn't, he wasn't turned away. He's watching that play and perhaps in those days, like there was less margin for error for those types of things. But I watched it again recently and I was like, how is that a red card?
- [38:53]
Duncan Alexander
Yeah. And I, I think to the. Speaking to the era as well, like red cards were seen as a much more shameful thing in those days. Obviously Ray Wilkins got sent off England in the 80s World cup and I remember even as very small kid being told that that was a disgrace what he'd done.
- [39:08]
Ollie Kay
That was trivial as well. Yeah, it was.
- [39:11]
Duncan Alexander
Didn't throw the ball at the ref.
- [39:12]
Ollie Kay
Yeah, no, but it was a, it was a sort of lobbed it to him. It wasn't a sort of throwing it at. It was, it was, you know, I think it was an underarm. But, but great.
- [39:21]
Jack Lang
Just. Sorry. Great to have a podcast just re litigating England red and yellow cards. Gaza harsh. Beckham harsh. Wilkins harsh.
- [39:30]
Ollie Kay
I'm not one of those people who sort of thinks England have been conspired against over the years. I mentioned, you know, the Jeff Hurst one in 66. They got very lucky. But I, I do think that, I think we can finally say 28 years later that, that Beckham was rather hard done by there. But it does again reflect what can happen when there's this enormous pressure on players at World at the World Cup. It's not like the World cup is always a higher standard of competition, especially these days, but there's often a real. You know, players feel this real pressure to perform. It's every four years. Beckham had begun that tournament on the bench, came into the team, and probably felt constantly, you know, he was probably on edge because he had a point to prove. He didn't have a great relationship with the coach, Glenn Hoddle. And if there was any kind of loss of discipline, loss of composure, it might be all bound up in. In this sort of sense of being like a coiled spring, as players very often are at a World Cup.
- [40:32]
Duncan Alexander
And I think that sense of pressure and responsibility comes very much into the other suggestion for this World cup, which is the very odd situation around the. Before the final when Ronaldo was not in the starting lineup, then suddenly was in the starting lineup.
- [40:48]
Jack Lang
Yeah, totally. I remember watching it on tv, and you had this period of complete confusion when Edmundo was named on the team sheet, and then that was revised to have Renaud on the team sheet. I remember the cameras picking out Mario Zagallo, and there being this complete lack of clarity about what was happening. We know subsequently that what happened was Ronaldo had a convulsive fit in his hotel room before the game. Apparently very, very scary. Like Roberto Carlos has said, he was kind of almost in tears seeing his teammate in this state. And, yeah, looking at it all these years later, there's no way he should have played. No way he should have played at all. But Ronaldo was keen to play. There was this big conspiracy afterwards that there had been some pressure from sponsors. There was even a parliamentary inquiry into this in Brazil. So they took it very seriously. But, yeah, I mean, there's. There's. There's been a Ronaldo documentary since, and he. He has always said that it was less nefarious than that. But, I mean, it did give us a very funny Ronaldo quote. We lost the World cup, but I won another Cup. My life, which. Which I think is very funny, but, yeah, very. A very memorable moment that was ahead of the final.
- [42:12]
Duncan Alexander
Okay, so, as per the rules, and we've got more than one option, we'll have a quick vote on which one we think is the most iconic. Will.
- [42:21]
Will Jeans
I'm gonna go for Ronaldo. Given events four years later.
- [42:26]
Ollie Kay
Yeah. The argument for not choosing Ronaldo is that we could perhaps move Ronaldo to four years later. I might abstain on that basis.
- [42:38]
Adam Leventhal
Okay.
- [42:39]
Duncan Alexander
Felipe.
- [42:41]
Felipe Cardenas
I'm gonna say Michael Owens. Wonder goal. I love that goal. It's just it. It brings back so many memories of that World cup, which I thought was a great World Cup. And, you know, the Beckham red card is. Is just sort of a byproduct of an incredibly contentious match between Argentina and England. So I'll go with Michael Owen on
- [43:01]
Jack Lang
the basis that I think we may pick Ronaldo for 2002.
- [43:08]
Duncan Alexander
No spoilers.
- [43:08]
Jack Lang
Jack, come on.
- [43:09]
Ollie Kay
Whoa.
- [43:09]
Jack Lang
I mean, 2002 is the Ronaldo story. More than 98, I will say. I'll actually say that Beckham's red card, I think, is. Is in terms of the kind of iconography, I think that sticks a little bit more than the Owen goal for me. So, again, you.
- [43:27]
Duncan Alexander
I love clarity. It's great.
- [43:29]
Jack Lang
You can decide.
- [43:30]
Duncan Alexander
I will pick that game, too. But for Darren Anderson's desperate. But after Sol Campbell thought he'd scored and half the England team celebrated with him. I mean, anyone who thinks Anderson was injury prone should watch the amount of ground he covered in that desperate, desperate run. But, yeah, I think that game, if you were going to pick, you know, a game from that World Cup, I think that would be the one.
- [43:50]
Will Jeans
Seems strange. It was a last 16 game. Looking back, that's only because England came second in their group, which they shouldn't have done, but it feels more seismic than that.
- [43:57]
Duncan Alexander
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Okay, let's wrap up the first half with a trip to Japan and South Korea in 2002. We've got actually got four options for this, so I'm gonna. I'm gonna say them out loud, and then we're gonna quickly discuss the four. I think that's probably the best way to do it. So we've got Roy Keane's walkout after falling out with Mick McCarthy. We've got Senegal beating France in the opening game. We've got Ronaldo's redemption after what we've just talked about. And we've got host South Korea knocking out not just Italy, but Spain as well on a run to the semi finals. So who wants to pick one of those to kick off?
- [44:36]
Will Jeans
Go with Ronaldo's redemption? I mean, we all know how injury Peroni was but looked up. He played 25 games for his club Inter across the previous three seasons going into that World cup, which is obviously remarkable to then deliver as he did. Scored eight goals, the only time anyone scored more than six from 1978 to 2018 till Mbappe and Messi in 2022, scored in every game except the England match. He was. He was phenomenal. And I mean, that Brazil team, I mean, I think it's between them and Spain for the best winners in the 21st century. They won every game without needing extra time at any point, which no one had done since Brazil in 1970. And that was one game fewer. And he was obviously the main man.
- [45:16]
Unidentified Commentator
Gilberto Silva to Ronaldo. Ronaldo to Brazil. Oh, what do you say about that? Extraordinary. 49 minutes gone. Every World cup needs a hero, and Ronaldo is one here.
- [45:34]
Felipe Cardenas
Don't forget the haircut. The. The haircut is iconic. Ronaldo's haircut is iconic. Will said it. I mean, that team was incredible, that Brazil team. It almost felt like, how could they lose that World Cup? And Ronaldo, what a story. I think he's one of the most beloved players in world football history. And, you know, he. He performed. He performed the way I think everyone wanted to see him perform after what happened in 98.
- [46:02]
Jack Lang
It was also kind of a double redemption, like as Will said, a lot of injury issues at club level. Specifically, you know, we've all got that image of him clutching his knee after going down while playing for Inter. So it was both a redemption for the strained, slightly unexplained 1998 final and redemption for what seemed to be career defining injuries. I mean, they were really career defining. They completely took away a lot of his physicality. And yet in this moment, he was able to. To bring it all together. And, yeah, that World cup is a kind of a definitive statement of what he could do. I think, you know, he was. He was a better athlete four years earlier. But the fact, as Will said, scored in so many rounds, the fact that he settled the final, I think is, you know, it would be a redemption story either way if Brazil had won and he was top scorer, but that it was him putting Germany to bed, I think really capped it off. And yeah, for me, that is one of the great World cup stories, particularly of this century.
- [47:12]
Will Jeans
Curiously, he didn't win the Golden Ball. It was Oliver Khan. So I looked until Messi in 2022. The last winner of the Golden Ball who played for the winning team was Romario at USA 94. So it was a long run of winners not winning, but I think he probably should have won that.
- [47:26]
Jack Lang
Yeah, a classic case of them clearly deciding that before.
- [47:29]
Will Jeans
Yeah, then Khan spelt the shot.
- [47:30]
Jack Lang
Exactly.
- [47:31]
Duncan Alexander
Okay. I mean, I think the fact there are multiple options for this World cup is kind of testament to it. Kind of strange World cup in a way, where a lot of teams, big teams, got knocked out quite early. And on that basis, let's quickly discuss Senegal beating France and South Korea's progress through the tournament.
- [47:48]
Ollie Kay
Yeah, it was a couple of shocks, really. I think it was. That's sort of reflected in the semi finals or semi finals. So it was Brazil, Germany and, correct me, Turkey, South Korea, Senegal and the US went a long way in the tournament. It was, yeah, it started with a shock. Senegal beating France in the opening game, which is an enormous shock. France went home in the group stage despite having Zinedine Zidane, who was probably arguably the player of the time. And the shocks continued in the knockout stage with South Korea as co hosts, knocking out Italy and Spain. Not without controversy, it must be said. The Italian players and media were convinced that there was something suspicious going on. Nothing was ever proven, but yeah, there were some strange refereeing decisions along the way. Goals disallowed, penalties given and missed. There was also the, the, the, the issue of Arn Young. Juan, who was the South Korean goal scorer, had spent the previous 18 months or so on loan at Perugia, had his contract terminated because he dared to score the winner against Italy, which I
- [49:17]
Felipe Cardenas
love that, I love that kind of
- [49:18]
Ollie Kay
thing, you know, then Southampton chairman Rupert Lowe might have done, you think. But it said very. Yeah, there was so much controversy about both of those games, refereeing decisions. But it was a great story. An Asian team as co hosts reaching the quarterfinal. North Korea had reached the quarterfinal back in 1966. Apart from that, Saudi Arabia had reached the last 16 in 1994. But, but this was, this was new, new ground for certain, particularly for East Asian teams. And I think it's so important for a World cup that the host teams do. Well, it can, I mean, if you're there on the ground and you know, I was there in South Africa in 2010 and they got knocked out early and it did, it did dampen the whole atmosphere. The atmosphere never really got going in Qatar in 2022 because Qatar were never at the races, but it was. But yeah, South Korea getting to the, getting to the semi finals, those two huge wins, I think that was really big for football in a global sense.
- [50:35]
Duncan Alexander
Anyone want to posit a case for Roy Keane and Mick McCarthy? Any Steve Coogan fans?
- [50:44]
Jack Lang
It's definitely a major story. I think you could probably rule out on the basis that the World cup hadn't begun. So the, for those who, who don't know this, it's the Saipan incident. Roy Keane being frustrated with what he regarded as poor facilities for the Republic of Ireland in their pre tournament training, fell out with Mick McCarthy about it, kind of that accusations that Roy Keane had been feigning injury, a psychodrama, like a two man psychodrama, which is why it became a recent film. I would say that this, to me, it's a. I've always found it really intriguing and I've read quite a lot about it over the years, but this feels like quite a local story compared to some of the others, so it wouldn't be my pick, but it's definitely
- [51:37]
Duncan Alexander
worth flagging, quite literally as it led to a lot of TV footage of Roy Keane walking his dog near his house. So, okay, let's go around the table and vote. So let's vote for Senegal. Well, let's say Senegal and South Korea as a sort of to represent the. The giant killing of. Of 2002. And then the Ronaldo redemption.
- [51:59]
Will Jeans
Well, gonna go for Ronaldo being the best player as Brazil won their fifth World cup in tandem with what happened in 1998.
- [52:05]
Ollie Kay
Yeah, it's a wonderful human redemption story. Not that he had anything to apologize for, but it was, it's a wonderful resurgence and the crowning glory of his career.
- [52:16]
Duncan Alexander
Felipe.
- [52:19]
Felipe Cardenas
I remember the collective fear that people felt when there was the possibility of South Korea, Turkey being the World cup final in 2002. And so I was overjoyed when that didn't happen. So I'm going through Naldo's redemption because that was the story of that World Cup.
- [52:36]
Jack Lang
Same for me.
- [52:37]
Duncan Alexander
Well, let's make it a clean sweep.
- [52:39]
Adam Leventhal
This is the Athletic FC podcast, proudly sponsored by Betfair. Right. This is the part of the show where with the help of our partners Betfair, we show you how you can play in a different league this season. James Mackey's back with us. James, the guys have been Talking about the 10 greatest World cup moments. We're focusing though on the upcoming edition. Everybody's got their favorite for 2026, but how about fair viewing it?
- [53:04]
Matt
Yeah, Matt, we currently have joint favorites at the top of the market on the Betfair Sports with France and Spain both 92 to win another World Cup. Interestingly, Spain are the best backed team on the Betfair Sports with 23% of the money gone on the market going on Spain with plenty of punters feeling they can do what they did at the Euros two years ago and win another major international tournament. As I mentioned, France are also 9 2. 18% of punters in the market have been back in France and I actually think France are probably the way to go here, but they've just got a few big egos if they keep a Lid on that. I just think their attack is far too good and similar to what we saw in the champions league with PSG's attack. And obviously we're going to see a lot of those players playing together again. England are the 132 second favorites to bring football home and, and like France have taken up 18% of the bets on the market at this stage. And always around this time we see punters getting very patriotic and I think a lot of England fans, when he gets that first game, they think we're going to win it and then the watchers play and then it's like, oh, okay, here we go again. But we'll have to see obviously what happens and we hope Tuchel can do the business. Just some other big nations at the top of the market. Brazil, they're 8 to 1 obviously under Carlo Ancelotti. Portugal and the holders, Argentina, they're Both priced at 10 to 1 with Germany 12 to 1, the Netherlands 14 to 1 and Belgium at 21 chance. So they take up a lot of the top of the market.
- [54:25]
Adam Leventhal
All right, sounds good. Everybody likes to be clever. Who's the dark horse for this tournament? You usually get your standard names crop up, don't they? I'm interested to see who, who people are back in that aren't in that. In that elite group that you mentioned.
- [54:39]
Matt
Yeah, no, it's really funny because when you speak to anyone that you've always got a left field shout, always one at a bigger price. I think it was Turkey, wasn't it, last World cup and everyone was thinking, oh God, they're going to go well. But the one actually we've seen, Matt, that interestingly has come for some money is Norway at 33 1. They've obviously got the likes of Haaland and Odegaard in their team, but Norway are the dark horses for the punters at the moment. Around 33 to 1 in the betting.
- [55:03]
Adam Leventhal
All right, well, you mentioned Erling Haaland there. I guess he's going to feature in the final category we're going to talk about it is of course the Golden Boot, always hotly contested. Lots of contenders this time round as well, I guess.
- [55:16]
Matt
Well, even more contenders than usual with 48 teams playing in this one. But yeah, always a popular market, the Golden Boot betting market, Matt. And be no surprise to hear that Kylian Mbappe is the favorite at 112 to retain his top scorer crown as he won the award at the 2022 World cup, scoring a hat trick in the final and obviously losing that final, which is actually just incredible. To say a player scoring a hat trick in a final and they still went on to lose. He's taken 20% of the bets on the market at this stage. But the second favourite and England's talisman, Harry Kane, is a 132 chance to win the Golden Boot. And he's taken the most bets on the Golden Boot market as it stands, with 26% of the bets on this market being on Harry Kane. And like I said, England fans do get patriotic and if we're going to win it all, go close, Harry Kane is going to be involved. Interestingly, Mikel Arrathabal, Spain's score of the winner in the 2024 Euros final against England is the third favorite, 121 joint with Erling Haaland actually at 12 to 1. And Erathel, he's been well backed in this market, taking 10% of the bets and having performed well at the Euros, Punters think that Spain can go far and he'll be crucial to their chance this year. Some other players in the market to watch out for, of course. Lionel Messi. He's a 14 to 1 chance, maybe probably his final World Cup. Then you switch to a younger player in Lamina Mal, who have World Cups plenty to come. He's 18 to 1 chance. And then you go back to the likes of Cristiano Ronaldo at 21, you know, you know he's going to play for Portugal and you know he's probably going to score with his record. So he's a 21 chance and just wanted a bigger prize.
- [56:44]
Jack Lang
That.
- [56:44]
Matt
That would be my pick, Matt. In the market around 31, he's Julian Alvarez for Argentina. I think he's had a superb season, Atletico Madrid, and I just think the price might be a bit big there at 31. But look, like you said, loads of players in there and there's always one that crops up at a bigger price that does.
- [56:59]
Adam Leventhal
Well, excellent. Great stuff as ever, James. Appreciate your time. We'll catch up with you soon.
- [57:02]
Matt
Thanks, Matt.
- [57:03]
Adam Leventhal
This is the Athletic FC podcast, proudly sponsored by Betwair.
- [57:07]
Duncan Alexander
Okay, moving on to the 2006 World Cup, a generally beloved tournament, I would say, with one very memorable incident in the final. Well, a few, but one particularly, I would say. Felipe, do you want to talk us through what Zinedine Zidane did to end his career?
- [57:25]
Felipe Cardenas
In many ways, it's still a moment that I can't get over sometimes. You think about. We've spoken a lot of memorable moments in this podcast, but this one still is hard to believe. It's Hard to fathom that Zinedine Zidane, one of the greatest players that the sport has ever produced, the, the ultimate captain, the ultimate leader of such a, such a good friends France team of a French generation. You know, going back to the, the World cup they, that they hosted in 1 in 98. And, and he was always like the model of, of, of, of just being stoic, being professional, being quiet. And so when he let Marco Matarassi's trash talk get to him in the 110th minute of a World cup final,
- [58:16]
Unidentified Commentator
it's Zidane's head into the chest of Matarazzi. That's what it is. And Zidane, who was sent off in
- [58:22]
Jack Lang
the 1998 World cup, if the referee
- [58:24]
Unidentified Commentator
had seen that, he was surely in trouble again.
- [58:26]
Jack Lang
Here he was off. There's absolutely no doubt about his violent conduct.
- [58:31]
Felipe Cardenas
I just felt the air leave the room that I was in when it happened. You know, you couldn't believe that that was the player that would be doing it. And, and it will define his career. It does, it does define his career. You know, you can, you can look at all the, the YouTube highlights of Zinedine Zidane and eventually you're going to end up at the headbutt with Marco Matrasi. He cannot escape it. I'm sure he knows this, but it is one of those moments that it didn't happen in, in a group stage game. It didn't happen in a contentious quarterfinal. It happened in the World cup final and, and it changed the course of, I think of football history when, when such a big name like that loses his cool. You know, we talked about Beckham and, and the kick out to Simeone. This is taking it to a WWE level. This is taking it to a place where you never want to be and, and it just shows you that anyone is susceptible to, to whether you want to call it the dark arts or just a moment of madness.
- [59:34]
Jack Lang
It was such a, it was such a weird thing because as Philip said first, you've got this stoic, famously Zen Kai walloping someone with a headband.
- [59:49]
Duncan Alexander
He did get quite a lot of red cards in his career.
- [59:51]
Jack Lang
Okay, yeah, I'll take that back. Maybe that's just his kind of off field Persona. You're right, he was a bit, bit, bit snuffy.
- [59:57]
Felipe Cardenas
It was the image. It was the image. He was pretty, he was a hothead, but it was the image that we had.
- [60:02]
Jack Lang
So, so for him to lose it is one thing, like for him to go for the head, like a headbutt as his means of getting out is unbelievable because, you know, you could. A shove would probably be your first port of call or, you know, like, arms to the face. So, like, to go for the headbutt is one thing. The headbutt to the chest, I. I don't think I've seen that in any context from, like, one human being to another. I've never seen someone headbutt us before. And, like, it was just so weird looking at it. Like, is that. I mean, objectively, it's not as bad as headbutting someone's face because there's no blood. It's actually quite a classy place to headbutt. You know, if you get a headbutt someone, the chest is like a nice meaty. So there was a touch of, you know, he was pulling his punches in. In terms of the headbutt. But also I love the fact that he then showed absolutely no contrition. It's so easy to see, you know, to go back to the Beckham example. You've got Beckham doing this, and you can see immediately he knows what he's done. He's pleading and he's shaking his head. Sudan just. He just basically just, like, takes the red and walks off. You're like, all right, see ya. And it was. You know, Zidane is seen as a very cool footballer for a hundred reasons, but for me, that was a very, very cool moment.
- [61:28]
Felipe Cardenas
But. But walking past the World cup trophy, I mean, that was insane. Like, it made the moment feel, like, so gigantic. And you're right. Like, he just sort of, like, rips off his. Rip his wrist tape, like a total stud. You're just like, oh, my God, this guy doesn't even care what just happened. But then the shot of him walking past the World cup is like, oh, my gosh. Like, you realize once again, like, what is what you're watching? You know, watching Gigi Buffon run from his penalty box straight to the referee to, you know, to plead his case. Did you see this? Did you see this? It was just like, oh, my gosh, like, I still can't believe that that happened.
- [62:03]
Duncan Alexander
Okay, well, I think that one's pretty unanimous in terms of. I mean, I think, you know, close your eyes and think of any World cup moment, and Zidane's head going into Materazzi's chest is definitely going to be up there. Okay, moving on to the 2010 World Cup. The first one held in Africa. Will, you're going to posit something that happened to Frank Lampard as a big Moment.
- [62:25]
Will Jeans
Yeah, well, got two really. It was overall a below par World cup and I think it was the last World Cup. That's true of. But there's two enormous moments of controversy which stand out. First was Frank Lampard's goal being disallowed against Germany in the last 16. And then Luis Suarez's handball against Ghana in the quarterfinals. Different in the sense that Suarez was punished immediately. But the Lampard goal was really the straw that broke the camel's back for what we now see with var. You could argue slowly things get started and brought in after that. I think that was kind of the turning point. Yeah.
- [63:01]
Duncan Alexander
I mean, for anyone who can't remember, he had a shot that hit the bar and clearly went. Rebounded. Clearly. Well, not just a narrow one, a good foot beyond the goal line.
- [63:12]
Will Jeans
For him, the worst bit is it means he's still taking the most shots at ever scoring at the World Cup. He's going to be forever reminded about it and it's not even really true.
- [63:19]
Jack Lang
How many, how Many is it?
- [63:21]
Will Jeans
41. No one. That looks like breaking it. JJ A Koch is next and I can't see him playing this summer.
- [63:28]
Jack Lang
It completely changed the match as well. I remember England were kind of in it and then we just weren't like, you know, Mesut Ozil probably. I don't think he was ever better than at that World cup. Just completely took it away from us. And I mean, fans from other nations will rightly laugh at England and there's always something. But we do love to, you know, we do love a little bit of injustice to cling to when our actual ability doesn't get us anywhere.
- [64:01]
Felipe Cardenas
So far, you guys are being so English, so proper like, that was egregious. It was a crime.
- [64:08]
Unidentified Commentator
Milner, Defoe. That's a lovely touch. Lampard. Brilliant. It was in now that surely crossed the line. It's not been given. Surely that was it. Here we go. It's so foreign.
- [64:28]
Felipe Cardenas
It was a crime if from a footballing sense. And we talk about Suarez being the villain. We can go back. You know, the. Both referees were Uruguayan, Jorge very, you know, well thought of referee was. Was the official for that game, that England Germany game. And I mean, it's so bad in hindsight when you watch the. The replays that like, you know, I'm joking. But it was so bad that VAR or goal line technology should have been implemented at that moment. They should have stopped the match and been like, all right, fine, like, let's just. Let's just starting now. Goal line Technology exists in world football. It is so, so bad when you look at it years later. So, you know, the English have every right to be upset about that one.
- [65:13]
Ollie Kay
I, I was, I was reporting on that game in Bloemfontein. I was basically at the other end of the stadium and you could tell even from the press box that it was over the line. It was crazy. But I've just been talking. I've just pulled up my match report from it and it's confirmed that, as I hoped, what I'd written was that, yeah, there was this obvious scapegoat and that might normally played to English scapegoating culture and. But England was so terrible in that game and at that World cup that, you know, there was a need to look deeper. But it's funny that, you know, 16 years on, it feels like the biggest story wasn't one of England's worst ever performances at a World Cup. It was. The biggest story is the, the legacy of that, that, that decision which, which is, you know, goal line technology very soon afterwards and, and, and var. Further down the line. But, but yeah, it was, it was actually that game that, that, that. That persuaded FIFA. We have to, we have to do this. Probably because they knew the English media would kick up a stink. But, yeah, there was, There was not. There was a lot of soul searching in English football as well about that World World Cup.
- [66:38]
Duncan Alexander
I mean, I would say also that England was so bad against Algeria in the group stage that possibly that was just fate rearing its. Rearing its head.
- [66:47]
Jack Lang
But yeah, mercy killing.
- [66:48]
Duncan Alexander
Yeah. I mean, it's a shame that, you know, Hawkeye isn't called something like Lampard's Law makes far more sense. But. Okay, so we all agreed that that is probably the.
- [66:59]
Jack Lang
No, no, no. I think Suarez is a much. Okay, so much.
- [67:04]
Duncan Alexander
Make your case.
- [67:06]
Jack Lang
Well, I mean, as you'll have realized, I. I care a lot just about the images here rather than the actual consequences. But Suarez watching from the touch line as the penalties subsequent to his handball was saved, that was just one of the most perfect little slices of drama. The fact that everyone knows you should go down the tunnel when you're sent off, it's just. I mean, Suarez has done all sorts of nonsense over his career, but that just squirrely little. Like the way he's just kind of peeking his head out, not actually going to the change rooms as he should have been. Then the fact that the. The penalty is missed and he's still on camera celebrating with a flick on
- [67:53]
Unidentified Commentator
Micelera's lost It off the line. Incredibly off the crossbar. Now the linesman on the near side is flagging. It's a handball. I think it's a handball. Linesman see something is a red card. Must be a handball. Must be a penalty. Has scored twice from the spot at these World cup finals already. Oh, the crossbar and over. The moment was just too big for him.
- [68:26]
Jack Lang
The fact that they missed the penalty. Of course, Ghana was. Were a brilliant team at that World Cup. Obviously, South Africa didn't carry the torch for. For Africa as a continent as. As the host may have hoped to, but Ghana did. And you had this moment of South American street smarts slash nefarious nonsense, however you want to put it, which I can't lie, also appeals to me in many ways. Just the clash of those two things in this moment was. Yeah. For me. Sorry, Frankie, but this is. Yeah. If you watch it back.
- [69:05]
Will Jeans
His first clearance of. I don't think actually knows much about it. It's generally astonishing, which Peter's obviously forgotten now, quite rightly, but remarkable. Ghana should really have scored. Well, there was a. It was a soft reaction, but the second one.
- [69:16]
Ollie Kay
Could he have got his head to it?
- [69:19]
Duncan Alexander
Maradona, would it?
- [69:20]
Ollie Kay
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [69:21]
Duncan Alexander
Okay, let's have one of our traditional votes on the two things, Suarez or Lampard. We going to go for Will.
- [69:28]
Will Jeans
It's very close and obviously the Lampard incident did lead to massive changes to the game, but just for a pure dramatic World cup moment that lives on, I'm going to go for Suarez.
- [69:39]
Ollie Kay
Yeah, Suarez.
- [69:40]
Duncan Alexander
Felipe.
- [69:41]
Felipe Cardenas
I'll say Suarez. The Lampard goal bothers me, but it's Suarez.
- [69:45]
Jack Lang
Yep, I agree with that.
- [69:47]
Duncan Alexander
Well, to make it 4:1, which I think is a haunting tribute to the performance, I'll go Lampard. I mean, obviously they face each other in the famous Steven Gerrard slip game as well, so there's a lot of ley lines of football combining there. Okay. Moving on four years again to Brazil in 2014, and very much Brazil in 2014. Jack, what are you gonna suggest for us here?
- [70:12]
Jack Lang
No prizes for guessing. It's. It's the 7 one. And the 7 one is how it is known in Brazil. It's got its own. There's a whole culture around this game and not a very happy one for Brazil. I'll get to that bit in a minute. But this, I mean, we all saw what happened on the pitch. Germany obliterated Brazil with just this kind of blur of like, Cruz Muller. Khadira Cruz.
- [70:44]
Unidentified Commentator
That's a lovely little reverse ball, Sherlock. Andre Schurler. It's seven stunning finish.
- [70:55]
Adam Leventhal
I mean, every one of these is just sublime football. I think the Brazilians have had enough.
- [71:01]
Jack Lang
It was one of the most remarkable football matches I've ever seen, I think. And the whole tournament there was just so much emotion and sense of obligation. You had the head of Brazil's football federation, Jose Maria Marin, who's. I could do a whole podcast about him, but he said, like, only a catastrophe will prevent us from winning. If we lose, we're all going to hell. What thing to say. What a thing to say. And then like you had this before the game. Neymar had been injured against Colombia and Brazil. Before kickoff against Germany.
- [71:35]
Will Jeans
They just.
- [71:35]
Jack Lang
It's like a Viking funeral for him. They were like, that was a stun. Holding up a Neymar shirt, like, cringe. All gathered together like players. David Luiz almost crying. Thiago Silva, who was missing for this match, was up in the stands looking emotional. And then Zico said afterwards, it was like Brazil had come to play in the Hunger Games. So you had all of this emotion and it like there was just this feeling that it was going to end badly. And yeah, it couldn't have gone much worse. Like Germany just completely tore them apart. The most memorable goal, I think was the fifth, which was Sammy Khedira. David Louise. When Khadira scores his goal, David Luiz isn't just not in the penalty area. There's like a zoomed out replay of showing most of the Brazil half. He's not even in the shot.
- [72:26]
Ollie Kay
Reverse Ayala, isn't it?
- [72:27]
Jack Lang
Yeah, he's just, he's just somewhere on another plane. And you've got the. The commentator Galvan Buena, this big avuncular guy who is the voice of Brazilian football these days. And he's like, it's. This is like a training match between the national team and a bunch of kids. And then, yeah, I mean, the aftermath. One of the Brazil's newspapers has a gravestone as its front page. A massacre. It's called Globo. The big Brazilian newspaper. Gives every player 0 out of 10 and gives them like a one word description. So you've got Luis Gustavo demolished, crushed. Julius says, I buried Fred Julie tragic. Ramirez irrelevant. And just like the bloodletting here was absolutely stunning. And to bring it back to how I started the. The 7:1 secion became this kind of shorthand for it. And there were also just jokes, like for about two or three years afterwards, the phrase Gold Alemania go for Germany becomes this kind of gag in Brazilian culture when Things go badly and like, oh, it's another goal for Germany. So you'd have a policy going wrong at government level and the columnists be like, oh, it's another. Another goal for Germany.
- [73:44]
Ollie Kay
I was at the game in Belo Horizonte and I'd been there for their round of 16 game against Chile maybe a week, 10 days earlier, which had been this sort of incredibly overwrought game where they were terrible, really won on penalties, and it was just this outpouring at the end. But it was the most kind of overwrought crowd I've ever been part of. And you could just feel that this is either going to be this most incredible. You know, it's building this wave of emotion, this tide is either going to sweep them to glory in the most kind of dramatic, draining circumstances, or it's just going to just throw them completely off the course. And I remember telling fellow journalists about the anthem. You know, you'll know the anthem and it's almost sort of shouted out, but the way it was shouted before that semi final, I was just. This just feels like what you call it, sort of death match. It felt like something primal. And it wasn't the greatest Brazil team by any means. And you had a lot of players who I think were less sort of refined, composed footballers and more kind of instinctive, slightly emotional, uncontrolled footballers. David Louise, perhaps harshly being the person I'm thinking of there, but it was just. I've never known a team be so overwrought in a really negative way. And Germany were absolutely wonderful and merciless, but it was. The Brazil performance was one of the most terrible performances I've ever seen from any team in a big game.
- [75:40]
Felipe Cardenas
You know, I'll add some context to what Ali said. Ali, you just described it so perfectly. It was not a great Brazil team. It was not this team, team that. That enamored you at all. And, you know, they were not well liked in South America. Maybe I'm being a little biased here. They knocked out Colombia, which were like the darlings of that World cup, but still, that game against Germany, I remember it was one of the first times in my life where I couldn't explain why I was so happy to see Brazil get demolished. And I think a lot of South Americans felt that way. They. Brazil typically is. Is well received, you know, in other parts of the continent when they go, especially at World Cups, South Americans rally behind their culture and their history. But that day, it was almost just laughable to see that team, which I don't think a lot of people enjoyed watching and didn't like the personalities of the team getting humbled in such a visible way.
- [76:35]
Adam Leventhal
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- [80:26]
Duncan Alexander
Okay, the 2018 World cup and who wants to talk about I guess Killian Mbappe's arrival on the announcement on the world stage?
- [80:36]
Jack Lang
Yeah, I can it's so this World cup obviously is recent and is in a lot of our memories and was was a good World cup but I don't think it stands up compared to some of the others in terms of just singular moments. So you obviously got Mbappe, still a teenager emerging at the world level. Obviously had been had been good at club for his club before that but really kind of drags himself very close to the level of the superstars in this tournament.
- [81:21]
Unidentified Commentator
What a world. There's a new number 10. Kylian Mbappe's star is shining now.
- [81:27]
Jack Lang
32 France he just looked so just vibrant and just just so fit. I mean like sometimes a Player comes along and they just, they just, they just look so fast and they're zippy and, and he, you know, not many players have reminded me of, of Ronaldo in 1998, which I still think of as the kind of the definitive wow, like this, this guy is just a level above Mbappe was, was close to that in this tournament. And yeah, the fact that he scored in, in big matches against Argentina, scored in the final against Croatia, you know, there wasn't one particular snapshot that I thought wow. But as a tournament, as, as a teenager to put together that campaign, that's pretty, pretty impressive.
- [82:18]
Duncan Alexander
I thought, well, is it fair to say that unlike some players, we obviously talked about Messi's long wait to win the World cup and Ronaldo almost certainly, well, he might win it, but we don't know yet. Mbappe is very much a sort of World cup player, isn't he? He's already on track to break a lot of records.
- [82:35]
Will Jeans
Yeah, I mean even if they hadn't expanded it to add an extra game, I think he, he's got a good chance of breaking mirrors off closes all time record of this tournament. Messi might as well but suspect Mbappe's got a couple more World Cups at least after this. So yeah, I mean he has kind of defined his, had a great club career but he hasn't won the Champions League. So do you think so far it's possibly will remain this way? His career has been defined by his performances in the World Cup?
- [82:59]
Felipe Cardenas
Yeah, four goals, four goals at a World cup as a teenager. And you know, to Jack's point, it was, I think that World cup needed a player like Mbappe, like someone to, to challenge the, that upper echelon of global superstars. And you know, I think my takeaway, I remember thinking at the time I was like, man, you know, to Will's point, he hasn't won a Champions League. He might win more World Cups than he wins Champions Leagues. And, and at that World cup and seeing him perform and seeing, you know, what France was perhaps capable of, not just then, but you know, four years later and now in 26, you think, you know, he, he really did epitomize like this generation of French football of just the, the type of talent that they have. And he's always been that player that doesn't seem unnerved by, by everything that we've just spent, you know, over an hour talking about like the pressure and the moments of World Cups and you know, he just is this guy that tends to perform at a very High level when it really matters. And to do it as a teenager in 18, I think just, you know, began that, that story of longevity for Achillian Mbappe.
- [84:09]
Duncan Alexander
Okay, moving on to the most recent World Cup 2022, will you are going to suggest a triumph for a man who'd been waiting quite a long time to win the World Cup.
- [84:21]
Will Jeans
I mean, of course it's the obvious shout, it's what that World cup will be remembered for. It's what, despite everything, I think Messi's career will be remembered for overall.
- [84:29]
Ollie Kay
Martinez, he's made a difference.
- [84:30]
Matt
Messi back towards Lautaro Martinez.
- [84:34]
Unidentified Commentator
Martinez saved Messi. Surely it was over the line. Maybe, maybe the greatest story that football ever told might just get its perfect ending. Claims of offside by the French. But the Argentinians are celebrating because they think Messi might just have won them the World Cup.
- [85:03]
Will Jeans
But they were a great tournament team. I thought overall they really got going. One, two penalty shootouts just from goalkeeper to attack. They were a pretty solid team and they did deserve it overall. Some people might not have liked the way they went about a few things, but it was one game too far for France in the final. They're obviously racked with a virus before, but don't think anyone could really complain that Argentina won that tournament and it was Messi more responsible for anyone.
- [85:30]
Jack Lang
It was the first time, I think, that Felipe was, I'm sure say more about this, that Argentina didn't seem to be in a state of complete chaos. There were still chaotic elements to it. Like, you know, it's, it was not a perfect side by any means, but, you know, Messi had his World cup career, had been through this period of incredible turbulence. Whether that's, you know, Diego Maradona being the manager or, you know, Jorge Sampaole who was, who is his own kind of, you know, character. And I think what made this so, so good, not dissimilar to the Maradona case we spoke about earlier was the, the fact that it seemed to be getting away from him. You know, we now know that he is just about hanging on for, for this World cup coming up. But then it seemed very feasible that this was last chance saloon for him. And actually the appointment of Lionel Scaloni proved to be such a masterstroke because it kind of brought Messi in. Messi was, there was always this doubt about Messi. You know, why doesn't he play the same for Argentina as he does at club level? And he, he kind of, over the course of, of that cycle turned into A different character in the national team. He was, you know, seemed to be more at ease with his teammates. He was more, certainly more vocal, did more interviews and. Yeah, just, just. It's so interesting how the phases of a player's career can work. Like, was that the best version of Messi as a player? No, absolutely not. But he was most comfortable. The team was geared to service him in many ways. You know, the guy's doing his running and things fell into place and, you know, he got his moment slightly, you know, as. As a standalone photograph made more interesting by the. The fact that he was given that bish to. To wear on the, on the podium, which was.
- [87:45]
Duncan Alexander
Don't forget Salt Bay as well.
- [87:46]
Jack Lang
Salt Bay up there. But yeah, it was. It was. I think. I think anyone who loves football, apart from Cristiano Ronaldo, probably enjoyed that moment.
- [87:57]
Ollie Kay
It was also an incredible final, and there haven't been, you know, of the, of the previous tournaments that we've been through, I think you could. You could possibly say 2006 for drama. But, but 1986 was. Was a great final, but this was. I mean, I, I think I've watched 11 World Cups and this was by far the best final. And I was lucky to be there in the press box and just saying. I remember turning to Adam Kraftman, who I think was next to me, and just saying, this is incredible. This is particularly extra time. And, and because Argentina seemed to be cruising for. For the majority of the game, and, and. And then Mbappe scores a hat trick. And. And it should really, you know, it should in some way be the Mbappe final. It was an incredible performance by him once he'd, once he and Franz had
- [88:48]
Duncan Alexander
woken up, scored one more goal than Jeff Hurst.
- [88:51]
Ollie Kay
Yeah, yeah. Include the penalty.
- [88:53]
Duncan Alexander
Yeah.
- [88:53]
Ollie Kay
Yeah. So it was. I mean, it was. By the time they have both scored their penalties, Messi and Mbappe, it's a case of, well, which. Which one of us is going to be. End up being remembered for this final? And it ended up being. It ended up being Messi because Argentina held. Held their nerve and in the, in the shootout. But it was. It was a brilliant World Cup. Well, it was a brilliant World cup final. It was a brilliant World cup generally in terms of the quality of the play. I don't think it ever had the sort of feeling on. On the ground in Qatar that it was a, a wonderful event, but it was, but it was. The, the quality and of the entertainment, I would say was extremely high. And, and that. And it had a worthy final and a worthy sort of narrative in terms of Messi getting that crowning glory again.
- [89:50]
Duncan Alexander
Well, thank you everyone. Lovely stuff. That's our 10 standout moments from the last 10 tournaments. So to finish off, let me run you through each one of them in chronological order. 1986 we've gone for the Diego Maradona Madness, followed by Genius, Hand of God and then Goal of the century. In 1990, we've chosen Cameroon, their general story, but particularly beating holders Argentina in the opening game. In 1994, we've gone for Andreas Escobar's own goal, which sadly led to his murder a few weeks later. In 1998, we've gone for the kind of pivotal England v Argentina round of 16 game which saw both Owens brilliant goal and Beckham's red card. In 2002, we've gone for Ronaldo's redemption after his struggles four years earlier. And in the interim period with plenty of injuries in 2006, what else could we have gone for but Zinedine Zidane's headbutt or Marco Materazzi during the final? In 2010, we've gone for Luis Suarez's handball and associated antics against Ghana. In 2014, we've gone for Germany's 71 destruction of host Brazil in the semi final. 2018 it's Kylian Mbappe's arrival on the world stage with a brilliant tournament performance from a teenager. And then in 2022, the most recent World cup, we've gone for Lionel Messi's triumph with Argentina finally landing the one honour that he'd spent his entire career looking for. So thanks to Jack, Ollie, Will and Felipe, and thanks to you too for joining us. We'll speak to you next time.
- [91:33]
Felipe Cardenas
Foreign
- [91:37]
Adam Leventhal
this episode of the Athletic FC is brought to you by Hotels.com when you're booking a hotel, here's a simple question. Why wouldn't you use hotels.com it really is all in the name. As a member, you save up to 20% on hundreds of thousands of hotels around the world and earn rewards on every single stay. Which means the trips you're taking now help pay for the ones you're already dreaming about. And unlike some other places, there are no blackout dates. So when you want to travel, your rewards are ready to go. So whether you're planning a grand adventure to follow your national team around North America this summer, or whisking your special someone away for an escape because you've been glued to the football for weeks, make sure to book@hotels.com and start earning rewards. Because when it comes to hotels it's simple. Hotels.com. it's all in the name.
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